The Ben Mulroney Show - This Week in Politics... with Brad Smith

Episode Date: June 20, 2025

Guests and Topics: Guest: Chris Day  Senior Vice President and General Manager Hill and Knowlton Guest: Chris Chapin, Political Commentator, Managing Principal of Upstream Strategy - Guest: Warren Kinsella, Former Special Advisor to Jean Chretien and CEO of the Daisy Group - If you enjoyed the podcast, tell a friend! For more of the Ben Mulroney Show, subscribe to the podcast! https://link.chtbl.com/bms Also, on youtube -- https://www.youtube.com/@BenMulroneyShow Follow Ben on Twitter/X at https://x.com/BenMulroney Enjoy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is the Ben Moroney Show, but I am not Ben Moroney. My name is Brad Smith. If you've listened to the show before, you'll know me from the Dilemma Panel and ironically, this week in Politics Panel, which is coming up right now, because we have to talk about this crazy week after the G seven. I was on this panel last week, uh, and we were talking about, because, you know, Israel was just now commencing their procedure, their war procedures or their attack procedures in Iran. And we were talking about destabilizing the region and that it needed to be

stable when in fact, Iran is we know, funds seven terror organizations that destabilize the region in general. But now this has escalated into something bigger. The diversionary tactics used at the G7 to create this oneness within the countries has now become something that has become divisive because as Donald Trump decides whether he's going to enter the war after running on a platform of I'm not gonna start any new wars. Mark Carney now I guess he seems a bit he sees excuse me a bit of leverage by saying he's gonna put up retaliatory tariffs on the United States if they

don't come to a trade deal within 30 days. And in order to help me better understand these complex political dilemmas, I want to welcome first Chris Day, Senior Vice President and General Manager Hill and Nolten. Chris, how's it going? Great. Thanks. And thanks for having me. My pleasure. Chris Chapin, Political Commentator, Managing Principal of Upstream Strategy. Chris, good to talk to you again. Always a pleasure. And former Special Advisor to Jean Chrétien and CEO of the Daisy Group, Warren Kinsella.

Warren, how are you? Good morning. Thank you. Warren, I want to start with you because obviously you can't go anywhere in the known world in North America without hearing the word tariff. It's become our daily most used word. And these conversations are now appearing between the US and Canada as it relates to creating a trade deal to get these tariffs dropped. It seems to be that the word on the street is that it's fizzling out. Now Carney says, I'm going to impose or I'm going to give you 30 days or I'm going to impose retaliatory tariffs on the United States.

Are we seeing this the wrong way? Is he seeing a leverage point against Donald Trump that we're not seeing? Because we all know that retaliatory tariffs economically by economist standards aren't the greatest issue when you're not in a point of leverage. Carney, the prime minister may be seeing something, but I sure ain't seeing it. I don't get it. You know, at the end of March, he said that our relationship with the United States was over, personally, in terms of defense and the economy. Then we find out from one of my colleagues of Post

Media that there were in fact secret negotiations going on for a new trade deal. And that's what I don't understand. Like we already have a trade deal with this president. He signed it himself with his own hand. It's called the USMCA. Yeah. 2019. I don't, I don't understand why the prime minister is spending any time, even a minute crafting a new deal with this guy because two weeks from now he can wake

up in the morning and change his mind and abrogate that deal. Like I don't understand why Carney thinks it's gonna be meaningfully different for him now than it was for Trudeau and Freeland a few years ago. So I don't understand, to answer your question, I don't understand the strategy at all. I do understand their decision to prop up

our aluminum and steel industry is critically important. It's crazy for the United States to do what they're doing because it's gonna add to the cost of their industry, the cost of the housing that they do, the building that they do, but that's Trump, right? Trump does crazy things. What we're doing, I don't totally get it either. Yeah, I guess Chris Chapin, I'm gonna go to you. I guess what I'm thinking about this, if you're gonna,

Donald Trump goes, I'm gonna put tariffs on you. I'm gonna put them on right away, Chris. They're coming tomorrow. And the next thing he does, he puts, he puts them on immediately. And then, when you come to the table, he repeals them and gives you kind of a grace period for conducting negotiations The issue that I have and where I'm not seeing the leverage in this whole US retaliatory tariff idea is going we're gonna put them on in 30 days and what because there has to be some sort of leverage point here he sees whether it's being distracted with the Middle Eastern conflict or something because That's not a negotiation tactic. I would use against the guy who's the

art of the deal, you know? Yeah. I mean, the challenge is predictability when it comes to the president. And I think the answer to that dilemma is there is no predictability on, on what the president's going to do from one day to the next. So unfortunately, that puts us as a country in a very weak position. I'm not sure the retaliatory tariffs Carney's speaking about are going to be helpful to us. But you know, at the end of the day, I did the only thing I counter what Kinsella said was that, you know, we need the

United States, whether we like it or not, like they are our greatest trading. Can I just interrupt you for a second? I'll let you get right back, Chris, because it is economically infeasible to replace upwards of 70% of your natural trade, even if you diversify your portfolio. We will still be reliant for quite some time on them. Go ahead. That's exactly it, right? And so when you speak of leverage, I think the president south of the border knows we have very little. Um, we, we do need the United States and we'll be, because we're not going to be able to diversify fast enough.

You know, we, we cannot diversify to Europe and the middle East and Asia fast enough to replace the, the economic ties we have with the United States. So I think, unfortunately, I mean, I guess this is Kearney's first attempt in a while since he became prime minister of actually the, the elbows up. He, yeah, I'm not sure it's a good idea, but I guess it's, I mean, I guess this is Carney's first attempt in a while since he became prime minister of actually the elbows up people. I'm not sure it's a good idea, but I guess it's a hint of him actually doing something he said he was going to do on the campaign trail, which was fight back against the president. The problem is that when you're Floyd Mayweather and you're fighting Mike Tyson, it's just an economic scale, sorry, economies of scale, they just don't match up.

So Chris Day, I wanna go to you because again, we can't diversify fast enough from a trading partner that we should be down there day one doing trade. Now we want a new trade deal regardless of the 2019 one. I get it, I get it. This guy came on and he said, this trade deal I was told by insiders it was good, it wasn't good for America. I get his point. Should he keep to it? Hey, I was told by insiders, it was good. It wasn't good for America.

I get his point. Should he keep to it? Hey, he ran on America first, but Canada is running on elbows up. I hate that slogan, but elbows, but elbows up has now turned into elbows down, arms wide open bear hug, except we're going to tear a few in 30 days. And I guess my biggest question, Chris, is that what can we do now to solidify to the Canadian people that they go on a summer break with some sort of understanding of how we move forward properly? Yeah, it's a great question because there is a ton of uncertainty out there and that

uncertainty is as corrosive if not more than the tariffs themselves. It is undermining business decisions already. It is undermining consumer confidence already. My understanding is that the Prime Minister's office and those around him wanted to have a deal done by Canon Ascas. That didn't happen. Right. So the point of the 30-day tariff threat is, I think, to keep the pressure on and to try and get a deal done as quickly as possible that includes elements of both economic, trade

and other access, as well as a security component. And so they're they're really trying to to work all channels in the US right now and you know the steel and aluminum announcement of yesterday was definitely part of that. Right but so we're talking about this Globe and Mail article which essentially says that they're gonna tariff countries that don't agree to a dumping of steel and dumping of steel is essentially Undercutting the cost and many countries do it You can just ask David Eby out in BC

Which which which is more cost-effective the the Chinese ferries or the Canadian ones with our Canadian steel? I want to get one quick answer from both of you on this one right now before we get to break. We only have about 30 seconds. But Warren, if you're Mark Carney right now before summer, all this tariff discussion going on, what do you say to the Canadian people to make them feel comfortable?

I think you got to keep doing what you're doing. He's pushing through. The Hesichommens is supposed to rise today. And they are working pedal to the metal to get through bills C2 and C5. So that the economic bill is one designed to deal with the very thing we're talking about, which is threats from the United States

and diversifying our economy, eliminating internal trade barriers, all that sort of good stuff. He has got a mandate, obviously, from the election to do that. So, I think that's going to go through and the Tories have indicated that they're going to support large aspects of it. Well, I got to get to Chris Chapin. Chris Chapin, what do you think about C5 and that feasibility? No, I think Warren's spot on. It's the right thing that they, it's what they promised to do. I think you can see it that the conservatives are supporting it.

If we were going to talk a big talk about diversifying and breaking down trade barriers, we need to start doing it and we need to do it fast. Chris Day. It's got support from both parties. It's going to pass and it needs to pass because we need to do big things in this country again and something we haven't done in years. So this is the way to do it. All good. Okay. Well, as we go to break big things in this country again, and something we haven't done in years. So this is the way to do it.

All good. Okay. Well, as we go to break, gentlemen, thank you so much. We're going to be back on the other side. If it does pass, I'm just going to worry that the Stronger Borders Act is going to look through my search history and find some pretty weird search items because they can warrantlessly access your IP address and data. This is the Ben Moroney Show and filling in for Ben Moroney, it's Brad Smith and we're

back with our This Week in Politics panel, Chris Day, Chris Chapin and Warren Kinsella. Thank you guys so much for being here. Let's jump right in because we only have a few minutes. So I'm going to ask you guys to keep these to about a minute because I want to get a discussion going here. And the first one, as we let off into the break with, is the former immigration minister, Sean Fraser. He did such an amazing job,

and if you couldn't tell, I was using air quotes, that he got upgraded to justice minister. And he came out and the National Post is reporting that he doesn't like people who use soft on crime slogans, but you shouldn't dismiss their concerns. Of course you shouldn't, Sean. And I want to go to Chris Dave first., but you shouldn't dismiss their concerns. Of course you shouldn't, Sean, and I wanna go to Chris Dave first. Of course you shouldn't, Sean,

because Chris, the fact of the matter is, is we're seeing headlines like we've never seen before in this country. The most egregious thing is the age is getting lower and lower. Bill C-75, which is bail reform, which has been the catch and release killer that everybody is talking about.

We seem to be so unsafe in a place where we prided ourselves on safety and now the Justice Minister doesn't like the slogans. Yeah, I mean, substance on this one is really key, but it is a bit laughable. This minister in particular would talk about, you know, listening to the public, looking at issues like this as early warning systems, which is a quote from that piece that you're referring to. And yet he ignored early warnings in both immigration and housing and is now at justice and is deriding this notion of soft on crack. I mean, this is hypocrisy in politics at its finest, frankly, because the liberals really

have a terrible decade of crack record here. People in the GTA, people across Ontario and across Canada do not feel safer than they were. No. And felt a decade ago. Absolutely not. So, you know, this, this justice minister has a real credibility problem on this. And I think this was trying to get ahead of some, some of the issues on around that. Okay. Chris Chapin, I was talking to Ron Chinzer here and he is a former police officer, very

good on the radio, but he speaks empirically about a lot of things. And I said, when you look at Bill C-75, when you look at the 100 or some odd arrests that have happened in the last 30 days and the percentage of people that are out on bail after most of them having already committed violent crimes. This seems to be, and I don't wanna throw out a conspiracy, but he kind of agreed with me, this doesn't seem rational to the point where you can't say like this is destabilizing the system

and it almost seems like it's gotta be calculated or else we'd make sure that these criminals weren't recommitting while they're on bail. Yeah, I don't know. I'm not gonna get into- I don't want you to jump down a rabbit hole, but there is cause and effect and correlation to the fact that we're getting people

who are committing violent crimes getting released right away. There's no question. We know we have a problem. We know what the solution is to fix it. So why don't we change it then? We just refuse to do it. And I think, unfortunately, at the federal level,

it's ideological. I, I, I felt for, you know, the past decade, there's been a belief that, you know, softer sentences, you know, But we have empirical proof, proof Chris, that it doesn't work. And if you know what to change, like what, where's the moral compass to change it? Good. They lost the moral compass a long time ago. You know, I think that's unfortunately the problem. They don't, they don't have a moral compass when it comes to this issue and and and they just simply don't care And so it's just a you know a rotating wheel you you get arrested you go to the court You get released on bail you rinse and repeat Yeah, I love that answer. That's a great answer

I'm sorry that I felt like I pushed you there But I just I feel like Warren that that issue, when we're talking about moral compass, it's, it's how do you have something that happened in Toronto here where they, you know, arrest a, a, a ring of sex traffickers, 36 of them, then 33 go out on bail. And then you're like, oh no, just because he's out on bail and we're, we're going to

arrest him, we're going to try him. But he's learned his lesson for some very egregious and depraved crimes. It just seems like we've lost the plot sometimes. Well, I'm not going to defend it, but is, you know, this is a problem for all governments at all times. Like I'm in Montreal right now and yesterday somebody went into the Museum of Art and threw a can of pink paint on a Picasso. And the only reason why I tell you that story is I was interested in the disposition of the accused case Right and that person was out hours after he threw the can allegedly through the can of paint on a Picasso

So it's not just violent crime. It's across the board But it you know, it's easy probably perhaps for all of us on a panel to say this is terrible and wrong But I can tell you what the judges are experiencing the judges are saying Okay, I've got somebody that I've got a hold we got to do a 24-hour hold or we've got to hold them until their next hearing Yeah, and then the regional detention center phones them and says we don't have room Right know where to put them. Well,, I just ask you guys, if you're the judge, what do you do then? Well again, I think it comes back to moral compass where somebody goes and throws paint on a Picasso. Yeah, I hate that that happened, but let the guy go. If somebody

is trafficking underage miners, you damn well find a place where you put him in a jail cell so he doesn't see the light of day. But you can't. My point is you can't. Well, the problem is, like I was discussing with Chris Chapin, is that you have to find out what the solution is. You can't just say you can't. That's not okay in a civil society.

That's not the answer. The answer is, how do we make sure this guy who's trafficking a 16-year-old girl never sees the light of day, especially while he's getting, should be getting his due process and tried his ass so that he goes to jail. Yeah, no, I agree with all that and I said that off the top. I'm just saying those are words. Those are just words. You're a judge.

You've just been told there's nowhere to put that person. What are you going to do? Some judge has to stand up. Listen, we can get into a conversation. I like to go to Chris Day for this because it's continuing this. I won't go to the next topic. But we're seeing judges going rogue in the states that are doing things that aren't exactly within their ability to do, that are getting overturned at federal courts, circuit courts. Does this come down to some judge

has to stand up and say like, listen, I cannot let any more of these people go on bail. I think it's a really complex thing, but it starts with having judges that will actually take tough decisions or, or get creative. It starts with having more space and having other spaces that aren't prisons and jail cells perhaps for people who need those. And it starts with actually enforcing the laws that are on the books. A lot of that, uh, you know, a lot of that is,

it's just being ignored right now. And, and, and people are learning, aren't learning lessons as a result. So it's a vicious cycle. No, and before we, I want to get everyone in before we go to break Chris Chapin, they're not learning, uh're not learning consequences and because the parameters are getting pushed

that they don't fear the consequences. Like when does this, when do the parameters get put around so criminals go, oh God, I can't commit crimes anymore. You got about 10 seconds here. Sorry. It's putting them behind bars, but I mean, Warren does make a good point. You need bars to put them behind.

And so maybe that's the part of the problem is we need to start building more jails quickly so we have a place to put these people so they learn their lessons. Warren, last word to you. Yeah, that's what you got. And that is the answer I was looking for is you need, we need resources. The legal system needs resources more than just rhetoric. Like if we're going to talk about putting people behind bars, we need a place to put them and we don't at the moment. And that's something that not the federal government, but the provincial governments need to answer.

Well, it seems, go ahead. Well, it seems, it seems that we can fund everything and we can create a, you know, an amount of money and not table a budget, yet we can't budget for the safety of our society. So I agree with you, Warren, that the answer is actually finding places and we don't have those places but that's not okay in a civil society in my mind. You got to get to the point of this person can't leave and and find out how to functionally put that to place. So Warren Kinsella, Chris Chapin and Chris Day thank you so much. I'm sorry I got

fired up but appreciate you gentlemen. Have a great day. I got fired up, but appreciate you gentlemen.