The Ben Mulroney Show - Today's tech and the hockey stick made famous by the Hip

Episode Date: June 24, 2025

Guests and Topics: -Mohit Rahjans -Ben Pernfuss If you enjoyed the podcast, tell a friend! For more of the Ben Mulroney Show, subscribe to the podcast! https://link.chtbl.com/bms Also, on youtube -- https://www.youtube.com/@BenMulroneyShow Follow Ben on Twitter/X at https://x.com/BenMulroney Enjoy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

No Frills delivers. Get groceries delivered to your door from No Frills with PC Express. Shop online and get $15 in PC Optimum Points on your first five orders. Shop now at NoFrills.ca. Welcome back to the Ben Mulroney Show and it's time this week to sit down with our great friend Mohit Rajans for a conversation about all things technology. Mohit, welcome to the show. Hey Ben, nice to be with you. Okay, so lots came out of the G7 summit last week in Cananascis, not the least of which

was a G7 leaders pronouncementment a statement on AI for prosperity. What is this all about? And does it, is it just, is it vapor or does it matter? You know, it's funny, I actually put the proclamation that is now on the government website into chat GPT to try to figure out what it is that we were trying to us to figure out and filter really what the information is, because you and I both know that we get these pronouncements at these government related summits and there's very little follow through. But when it happens in Canada at such a large stage, at such a vital point, I've really

pinpointed on a few things that has made me go, OK, now what? OK. OK, so let's go into it. So let's get into it in this idea that, for example, we don't really have an oversight body yet when it comes down to AI and innovation within Canada. So we're not playing by any rules that are established at a government level that are similar to what's been accelerating and everywhere from Asia to Europe. We also don't have a clear indication about how civil servants and government themselves

will be disrupted by this technology and therefore how they will uniformly start to adopt some of this. While I realize that this is all a work in progress, it's really hard for Canada to be at the table when other countries have already adopted many of these things into their plan on how they're going to use AI. Yeah, and a lot of cases we're playing catch up because we like like I said, we love making bold pronouncements in the early days, and then we just allow other countries to lap us. But look, for the first time ever, Canada has a minister at the federal level for artificial intelligence and Evan Solomon and hope to have him on the show soon where we can discuss what his priorities are and how he can help leapfrog Canada to a place of leadership in AI.

But that is a conversation for another day. I saw something on Time Magazine that I really wanted your take on because there's a headline that's absolutely mind boggling. Chat GPT may be eroding critical thinking skills according to an MIT study I didn't even know that a chat GPT had been around long enough to do a study on this but There there it is. So what do you make of this?

It's a hundred percent true. I can't even begin to tell you. Okay, so even as much so tell me how and how is it any different? How is the in this one case, I appreciate that chat GPT, far different, different tool than say Google, but how is chat GPT eroding our ability to think critically versus sort of living with Google for so many years, where you could just ask it any questions that would give you an answer. Well, I think we're in a very critical situation

now where we need to understand that this in this technology is be is evolving so rapidly that it's being used in multiple case scenarios, where people don't necessarily understand the power of it, let alone how often it's being used. Chachi PT can now do entire things in the past 18 months, it's improved so much that, you know, even in its first iteration, it couldn't do, it can write full essays. Now it can cite proper things. It can not hallucinate. It can do so many things that made the first round of people stop and say, okay, well, wait a minute, this is not for us, but this isn't stopping bad. And that's the bigger problem here is the fact that people who are starting to

use it every day in their lives can make note of the fact that people who are starting to use it every day in their lives can make note of the fact that chat GPT is being used as more than just a tool. Hey, I know that it wasn't in this or the stories that we said we're going to talk about, but I remember reading yesterday that there was an Apple put out a paper that said that all of these large language models, they're not thinking, they are repeating. And they put sort of chat GPT and others to the test and they were able to perform very well at low level tests. They had some problems with medium tests,

but when they reached a certain level of being tested at a high level, they failed demonstrating that all they're doing is accumulating information and filtering it for you essentially. Is that a fair assessment of what they said? So there's two aspects of that. One, I'm familiar with the study that you're talking about.

It was weird that Apple sort of came out with this right around the time that they were being criticized for their approach to artificial intelligence. It seemed sort of out of the blue for Apple to do, but in many respects, the actual study is right. It does, we do have a situation right now where there's a commercialization and a hype that's happening around the use of artificial intelligence. And it's not a one stop shop or solution for every single industry. And therefore people like Apple

are trying to point out that, listen, on a commercial level, you think you're using this magic, but it's really not there yet. But I would rather Apple spent a little bit more time improving some of their products, because they're definitely, definitely falling behind in this AI race. But I guess, I guess the question I have from that study that they put forth is, does that mean that, you know, that people are worried about AI becoming self-aware? They're worried about the singularity. They're worried about the Terminator scenario. They're worried about a lot. But are we farther away from it because of this study than we thought we were?

I think people have to remember that right now the generative AI is pulling information from the internet. And you and I both know not everything on the internet is right. No, come on. That's a hot take. Well, unfortunately, if you scrape that same information, you're just going to get some of that wrong information. So let's be a little bit smarter than we pretend to be sometimes and understand that this is still generative AI that's generating off of unvetted content. All right. So a lot of a lot of people in Canada like to sow fear about social media platforms

and how they're all about misinformation and they spread hate and hatred and fear. And so the reaction to that is there's a couple of Canadian-based social media platforms that are bubbling to the surface. A few weeks ago, there was A, social, E, H, because of course, and now there's gander social media platform that has some pretty heavy hitters behind it. And they have a pretty

interesting take on how to build out a new social media platform. What do you think of gander? Well, okay, so there's a couple of things. One, it's extremely ambitious. It has a purpose. I think we are going to see more micro social media networks being built to serve certain communities. All of that is fulfilled in what you just described. What you haven't been able to describe is what does the Canada-only network really mean? Where does this data sovereignty really lie? Meaning how is this really going to protect Canadians and meet them where they are?

And is it really going to be all that it's promised to be? Social media has not necessarily shown that it is ripe for something like this. You and I have talked about many apps that have come and gone to try to replace the other popular app of the moment. We shall see. I love some of the people behind it. But Arlene Dickinson, who is one of the people behind it said, yet no, the world doesn't need another social media app, but our contention is we can replace a social media app. We can supplant them. And look, there's a couple of interesting things.

I don't know what they mean in the real world, but essentially Canada would have its own sort of gated garden and other countries would create their own gated gardens and you as the user would have access to your gated garden but if you wanted you could toggle so that you could be part of the larger network of nations and look it's certainly a different way of building something I don't know if something like that can scale and fundamentally Mohit my biggest problem is that these,

this at least Gander, I don't know anything about this other one, asocial, but Gander seems to be hell bent on protecting me. And I don't want to be, I don't need to be protected. I can protect myself. Interesting point. Yeah. That's a very, very interesting point.

And I think that we will get to a point where people will just be able to create their own sources into something and not require another filtered Canada is not a nation of victims we're not seeing they're being victimized by social media and misinformation every second and the key isn't to isn't to baby proof social media it's to it's to arm the individual with with the requisite tools to be able to differentiate between harmful information and productive information. But don't forget that some people use the internet to just shop, right? And so maybe this is going to

be a social media app that's going to be geared towards merchants that need to find their customers where they are. Oh, listen, and I'm not judging Gander yet. As a matter of fact, I signed up for it. I put myself forth to be a beta tester because I'd be very curious to see what they're building and Look if a Canadian company can be successful in the global scale I'm gonna say I'm gonna support it, but I am skeptical about this notion of protecting Canadians. Like we're not babies We're not children. We don't need to be protected against the ills of the world We need to be smart enough to push back against them. And if that's sort of the guiding principle I don't know how successful they're going to be. But again, not judging. Mohit, thank you very much for joining us.

I really, really appreciate it. Hope you stay out of the heat today, my friend. OK, take care, Ben. Thanks for having me. Welcome back to the Ben Mulroney Show. And that was, of course, a 50 mission cap by the tragically hip that introduced Bill Borilko to a whole new generation.

Bill Borilko to a whole new generation. Bill Borilko was the Stanley Cup winning Toronto Maple Leaf from what 1951 and 1961 and and his stick just went up for auction and sold for $60,000. There is something about sports memorabilia. I, growing up, collected baseball cards, hockey cards, basketball cards. There's something about participating in those moments that matter to so many of us that I can appreciate. I can appreciate why somebody would want,

first of all, if you gotta have the money to spend on something like this, but I get it. I absolutely get it. So to talk about this and maybe talk a little bit more about the world of sports memorabilia and where it's going, we're joined by Ben Pernfuss. He's from Miller and Miller Auctions. And Ben, welcome to the show.

You're the guys who managed the auction and had this thing sold. That's right Ben, yeah. Thanks for having me on the stick sold on Sunday night. Yeah, as you said for $60,000. So there was clearly some interest in the stick and we were thrilled with the sale. Do you think that with each passing year

with the Leafs not winning the cup, and I say this as a Montreal Canadiens fan, do you think that it makes memorabilia like this more valuable because we're getting farther and farther away and this is a relic of an accomplishment that has thus far eluded us so many? Yeah, I agree with you. And as a Toronto Maple Leafs fan myself,

I think we just want to feel some sort of nostalgia from the good times of the Toronto Maple Leafs fan myself, I think, you know, we just want to feel some sort of nostalgia from the good times of the Toronto Maple Leafs. And it's been so long since they won the Cup. I think any connection to those winning days is what drives the prices on this Toronto Maple Leafs memorabilia. And as you said, Bill Barocco being a legend in hockey and just Canadian history too, I think. Okay. What's this stick worth if the tragically hip do not write that song? Yeah, that's a good question.

And I think like the tragically hip broadened the narrative on Bill Barocco to a whole pop culture audience. And I think, you know, like it's on a different level as soon as you expand into that, like people my age, I'm 24 know about Bill Barocco because of the tragically hip, not necessarily because of his connection with the Toronto Maple Leaf.

So I think that added a ton of value, like, you know, double, even triple just because of, you know, that connection with the hip. So I remember when I was a kid in the mid 90s, early 90s, mid 90s, there was an explosion in, in the number of hockey, baseball, basketball cards. Upper deck became a huge thing, right? And my brothers and I were going crazy for those.

I mean, we were convinced, we were convinced that this kid, he was a farm prospect for the Oakland A's, was gonna be the next Nolan Ryan. His name was Todd Van Poppel. And my brothers and I went out and collected every one of these cards, convinced it was gonna make us a millionaire. Well, he flamed out right quick.

So I'm sitting on a whole bunch of Todd Van Poppel cards. But one thing that we also did was, when my dad was prime minister and the baseball All-Star game was here in Toronto, we brought all of our upper deck cards to the game. We went into the National League locker room. We went into the American League locker room. We went into the American League locker room. We had every single All-Star sign their card.

We have a complete collection of every All-Star with autographed cards. And look, I don't have proof of provenance, but I've got pictures of us at the game and with these guys. So what is something like that worth? Well, good question. I think, as you mentioned, in the 80s and the 90s, the card market

was flooded with, you know, different, different brands, um, high supply, high demand. Uh, but those cards from the eighties and nineties in general, uh, you know, there's, there's a few exceptions, but in general aren't worth, um, that much money on their own just because there was a huge supply. And that's when people started buying cards for the sake of collecting them not yeah but they don't all have autographs. There you go. Yeah. You want me to tell you a story that's gonna break your heart? Sure. Okay so I went over to my brother and I went over to my grandmother's house and we took a

whole bunch of stuff out that she didn't want anymore and there was a ton of ton of hockey cards ton of baseball cards and that my uncle had collected and my uncle had a 1956 Mickey Mantle near mint condition triple crown card. Wow. And we had it and perfectly preserved somehow it ended up behind the radiator of my brother's room. And we were moving out because my dad had resigned. In 24 Sussex, it ended up behind the radiator. And on the day before we were leaving, we realized it was behind there and we couldn't get to it.

We tried to rip the radiator off the wall, but we couldn't. Thank God. So inside that rat infested asbestos pit of despair known as 24 Sussex is a near mint condition, Mickey Mantle, triple crown card from 1956. It's just sitting there. Wow.

It's just sitting there. Is that not a crime? That is a crime. I mean at this point that card is probably worth more than the house. Yeah. I mean I've heard some interesting stories of where cards have ended up, but that is one of the most unique. The 1956 Mando would be worth quite a bit if it's in the condition you're describing. So that's an interesting one. So Ben, clearly hockey stick, worth a lot of money,

was in that game. It has value. There's that tactile feel of owning a piece of history, right? What other, like a baseball, is it baseball bats, a pair of skis, a pair of shoes? What else is generating interest like this Bill Borilko hockey stick?

Yeah, so a couple more highlights from that Sunday night sale was a 1952 Topps Mickey Mantle card. So Mickey Mantle is kind of like the man when it comes to baseball collecting. And the 1952 card is kind of considered the holy grail of post-war baseball. And we actually, we found a couple of his cards locally to where our auction house is. And one of them was sourced from a reclaimed church not far from us. And it ended up bringing about $60,000 in a fairly low grade condition. So- Oh really? It wasn't even in great condition.

$20,000 in a in a fairly low grade condition. So oh really it wasn't even a great condition No, no, it wasn't it wasn't perfect. That's for sure it looks decent to the naked eye, but you know, it was sort of in someone's collection and played with 1952 back in the day people and kid when they collected them some a lot of people kids would would put them in the spokes of their B so they could get that ratatatatatatat noise as they would go by exactly yeah or they would play games where they would throw them against the wall that's one I've heard and that's what what drops the condition of those cards but also why they're worth so much in high-grade conditions if they were

purchased to be played with back then. And what type of collector is most enthusiastic about this sort of stuff? Yeah, so I think there's two kinds of people that we see in our business. One of them is the investor. So people will buy, you know, a 1952 Mickey Mantle card and they'll hold on to it as a form of investment that they expect to go up in value over the next while. And then there's also just the person who wants to feel the nostalgia of being connected to someone like Bill Borilko or Mickey Mantle

or you name it, just to feel a connection to the players that they loved to watch back in the day. Kind of the two kinds of collectors that we deal with. Is the Honus Wagner baseball card still the high watermark? Is that still the most expensive piece a baseball card ever sold? Yeah, so the Honus Wagner is considered the the rarest and the most valuable card in the world. I mean I remember when it sold for a million bucks back in the day. What's it worth today? It's I mean there's there's one that's owned by the Arizona Diamondbacks owner, and it's

expected to be worth more than $30 million. What condition? When the heck did that happen? I remember when it was a million. Are you telling you got 30? My God, I got to get into this business again. Hey, Ben, thank you so much for joining us. Really appreciate it. Would love to talk to you again soon. Anytime you got something that goes, a really unique piece at an auction, let us know. But really appreciate it. Thanks so much for having me on.

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