The Ben Mulroney Show - Toronto’s fiscal wonderland – we’re buying WHAT?

Episode Date: January 31, 2026

Guest: Adam Zivo, National Post columnist and Executive Director for the Centre For Responsible Drug Policy If you enjoyed the podcast, tell a friend! For more of the Ben Mulroney Show, subscribe to the podcast! ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://link.chtbl.com/bms⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Also, on youtube -- ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.youtube.com/@BenMulroneyShow⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Follow Ben on Twitter/X at https://x.com/BenMulroney Insta: ⁠⁠⁠@benmulroneyshow⁠⁠⁠ Twitter: ⁠⁠⁠@benmulroneyshow⁠⁠⁠ TikTok: ⁠⁠⁠@benmulroneyshow⁠⁠⁠ Executive Producer:  Mike Drolet Reach out to Mike with story ideas or tips at [e-mail] Enjoy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Visit rbc.com slash avion. It is the Ben Mulroney show. Thank you so much for joining us. We are closing on this week. One final hour here in the great city of Calgary. We've had a tremendous time hitting the road, getting back on a plane, coming home tonight. And we'll be back just in time for what I understand.

is the cold snap to end. Yeah, and do you know what? I didn't tell you this. What we're also going to get back for? Because we're getting into the airport late, like after midnight. After midnight. Yes, some of the highways are closed down. What?

As of 11 o'clock, they're doing work on them or this or that. Yeah, so it's going to be fun getting home from the airport. What highways are closed? I think that we need to know this. Yes, it's, I will get that for you in a second. Yeah, while you do that, we're going to say, well, actually, we can't do two things at once. So I'm going to wait on you for this. Here we go.

Don't forget on Friday, starting at 11 p.m. Until Monday at 5 a.m., sections of the Don Valley Parkway and the Gardner Expressway are going to be closed for Ontario Linebridge. Oh, okay. So I'm going to stick to the 401. And then I'll drive through the city. Fantastic. Well, thank you for that. But now the most important thing is, is it's that time of day.

We like to play a game about the Finch West. LRT. And I have to say, you're really good at this game. Well, you know, it's, I put on my thinking cap, right? And I asked myself, if I were an LRT built by Metro Links, would I be open or closed? So the question is today, Ben. Yeah. Were there delays on the Finch LRT, West LRT today?

Okay, so, okay, I'm an LRT. I'm an LRT. You're just, you're, your, line six, LRT. It's cold. Visualize it. It's cold as snow. I have delays. Once again, correct.

Look at that. I mean, I'm really knocking this one out of the park. You need to play some lottery numbers. So what happened? What happened this day? Mechanical problems? Mechanical problems. Yeah.

That's great. Yeah. And didn't we hear something about... That's such a broad thing to say. Yeah. So what happened? LRT problems. It stopped working.

Yeah. No, it's a, it's global problems. It's supply chain issues. supply chain issues in the fully built LRT Oh man, that's good. Well, yeah, well, so apparently they agreed to what's going on here. Oh, the Crosstown, that's the other news, right? It was supposed to open.

Remember, they said Doug Ford, February 8th is what he said. Yeah, got excited. It was going to open on February 8th. And then Mandy Blahley came out from the CEO of the TTC said, hold your horses there. And now the TTC has flagged unexplained emergency brake activations during final testings

of the long-delayed Eglinton-Crosstown LRT prompting last-minute safety concerns just days before potential February 8th opening. So why do you think that the emergency breaks would just suddenly go like just activate and stop the train? So I've done a lot of thinking here. There's only one one answer I can come up with.

Ghosts. How about collusion with Finchellar? too. No. I mean, this is, this is emergency break activations. 15 years we've been waiting. My daughter wasn't

you, my daughter wasn't even a glimmer in my eye when they started building this thing. No. And the project. She might graduate from university. Yeah. Yeah. Look, but what did I tell you, man? They should have just punted this until

late March, early April when there's no snow anymore. Give yourself this time to fix it all. It's not like you're going to win a PR battle at this point. No, exactly. And then what you've done is you've given yourself six or eight months to figure out the inevitable snow issues that you're going to have.

Yeah, so, but I look at this and the first thing I thought was because remember they bought these a long time ago. They were supposed to be operational six years ago. So they've had them for, I think, eight or nine years. I don't know how you keep them up to, like these things are going to

well past their shelf life. So they're breaking down. They're breaking down already. They haven't been used to carry people. There's a reason that they're breaking down because they're old and it hasn't even opened yet. Yep. No, well listen there's a common theme in some of our stories today because the

Crossdown LRT the cost doubled to $13 billion and delays and delays. But in Toronto, Vancouver, apparently we and Vancouver face some of the highest World Cup cost overruns. So is this something to be proud of this story? Toronto's budget ballooning from 30 to 45 million bucks to, sorry, I hadn't read this number yet.

They expected it back in 2018. It was between 30 to 45 million. And now the cost is expected to be $380 million. Now, Vancouver's, they were, I think they would, they planned a probably a little more reasonably. They said it was going to cost $240 million back in 2022 and up to $624 million. far. Jesus. So in the states, what happened was, there's a bunch of cities that are hosting it and they said, oh, it's going to cost more. So they scaled back what they were doing. Do you know what they didn't do in Toronto?

What? In Vancouver? Scale back. So they just, they're like, yeah, let's just spend more money. But what do you mean they scale back in the states? Meaning they just, if they're doing something they're going to do this for this stadium and build this, well, we're just not going to do that anymore. We're just going to cut back on all the things we promise. But they don't need to do anything in there.

NFL stadiums. We have to, at least in Toronto, we had to because we would have the smallest stadium for a World Cup match ever. Well, remember, they are at the BMO Stadium in Toronto building a rooftop patio. Yeah. But it's not going to be open until after the World Cup. Yeah. So it's part of the bid. So why are we continuing with that? I don't know. Why not cut that to be able to save taxpayers' money? Instead of 30 to 45 million, it's $38,000. It's $38,000. Well, listen, some of the other costs that we're seeing at Toronto Public Health is spending nearly $200,000 on sexual health supplies, including 576,000 branded condoms, 200,000 lubricant packets, 12,500 internal condoms, and 16,000 dental dams for World Cup-related public health efforts. I'd never heard of a dental dam before. Yeah.

I put a picture in there for you to enjoy. Thank you. Question mark. So apparently, because I was asking you, I said, look, this isn't like the Olympic village where you have, you got horny athletes that are bumping up against each other and you want to make sure if they bump up against each other, do so safely. These are people here staying in different hotels. And it has to be said, all dudes, like that's, that is. So unless you're thinking that they're going to go out and pick up chicks and, I mean, some social. Some will pick up dudes, but if you think they're going to pick people up and, like, who's getting these condoms?

The team from Ghana. But shouldn't it be the responsibility of that country to make sure that their team members are safe? You would think so. I don't know why we're footing the bill for this. But here's the beautiful part. And by the way, dental dam. Look. What are you thinking?

I don't know anybody's ever used a dental dam. Let me put it that way. I don't know anybody. But there's also this. So they're going to be having six. edition soccer-themed condom wrappers. Oh, my God. Look.

Where are they... The LRT doesn't work, and you're branding condoms? By the way, we got some stories that are even more discussed than this coming up, and there's the picture of the dental dam. Thank you for that. You're welcome. All right. They're just there to, you know, help you along.

Listen, speaking of which we're being joined by Adam Zivo for the National Post after this, after this break, because if you think that pay, for dental dams and branded condoms is a bridge too far away till he tells you the story about how many meth pipes, crack pipes, and syringes Toronto Public Health has procured. It's gross.

Welcome back to the Ben Mulrush. Before the break, we told you that Toronto Public Health is spending nearly $200,000 on branded condoms, lobe at internal condoms and dental dams to promote public health during the World Cup. A little silly. But 200,

$200,000 is a drop in the bucket compared to this next story. Please welcome to the show. A great friend of the show he hasn't been on in a long time. Really glad to have him today. Adam Zivo, National Post columnist, executive director for a center for responsible drug policy. Adam, welcome. Hey, it's been a while. It has been a while, but I've been following everything you do.

Very proud of the work that you do on so many different fronts. Let's talk about this access to information. Toronto Public Health has procured 2.34 million meth pipes. 3.45 million crack pipes and 14.92 million syringes between 2021 and 2025. WTF. Yeah, so these numbers are insane, and I got them through Integrity TO, which is an advocacy group that focuses on fiscal responsibility and responsible governance in Toronto. They've been really making their voices heard in their opposition to harm reduction and, I guess, just the general decline to Toronto. So they submitted an FOI of Freedom Information request back in late last year.

They got this information. They forwarded it to me about the insane amount of crack pipes and meth pipes being distributed by the city. And what's interesting is that they actually inquired into how much all of this paraphernalia cost. And the city said, we can't give you that information because we get it from the province. The province pays for it. So we have no idea how much money is actually being spent on these millions of crack pipes. Well, I mean, that's a whole other question. I'm surprised the province is paying for this.

Does the province know they're paying for this? I think so. So here's the thing. I emailed the Ministry of Health and I said, hey, are you aware of the fact that Toronto's giving out millions of crackpipes and nut pipes? And the Minister of Health spokesperson got back to me right away and said, we want to make it very clear that we do not support giving out drug paraphernalia. And then I said, okay, my follow-up questions, if that's the case, then were you aware that this program was running? And if you were aware, then why did you let it happen? And if you weren't aware, then what kind of communication gaps allowed this to occur?

And then also, you know, what are you guys going to do moving forward? Because actions speak louder than words. And they didn't respond. They haven't responded yet. They were very quick to disavow this program. But the moment you inquire on specifics, they disappear. Well, so like, let's get back to these numbers. because these, we're talking millions upon millions of meth pipes, crack pipes, and syringes.

And I'm sure you're going to be like a dog with a bone. You're going to figure out the cost of this and you're going to figure out what the province knew, if anything, and when. But until then, we go with what we have here. And I think a lot of people are getting really sick and tired of activists at City Hall saying, well, I'm following the science. Okay, well, you follow the science in so far as if you're following the science, it's because you believe it's going to lead to better outcomes for drug addicts and for the

community at large. Is that what the data is saying? No, absolutely not. Here's the thing. There is no science behind this program. And I asked the city, I asked Toronto Public Health, what's your evidence based behind this initiative and how are you tracking impact? Are you using any indicators to see whether all of these crack pipes are actually making

the benefit in society? So they didn't identify any indicators. so it seems as if they're just not tracking any of this at all. And then they forwarded to me a 2023 evidence review conducted by the government Ontario. And they said this is evidence-based. I looked at the review very closely, and they only had four studies that dealt with the distribution

of crack and meth pipes. Of those four studies, only one suggested that distributing crack in meth pipes might actually improve public health. Here's the methodology that they used. They interviewed 31 drug addicts in Victoria in 2010. And those drug addicts said, well, if you perceived free pipes, we might share less. That is the extent of the evidence.

31 whole drug addicts on the other side of the country 16 years ago. Yeah. So because these 31 drug addicts said 16 years ago that they might reduce their pipe sharing if they got free paraphernalia, that that is why we are giving out millions of pipes. And what's interesting is that when you look at the three other studies, so one of them we can just discard right away. They just interviewed four staffers at a hospital about their impressions of giving away free kits. That's not fine. No. Yeah.

But for the other two, so in 2011, they interviewed, I think, about 20 or 30 drug addicts in Vancouver. And those drug addicts actually said, actually, we don't believe that free pipes would reduce sharing because sharing is an essential part of the social component of using crack. So the province and Toronto Public Health, they're ignoring that research as well. And then there was another study. So part of the social conventions of crack smoking, if you're doing it as a group as you pass the pipe? Exactly. And then there was another study done in 2011 in Vancouver where they surveyed between 100 to 200 drug addicts before and after the mass distribution of inhalation kits. And that survey found that, yeah, giving out kits will make these quote unquote clean pipe. more accessible, but there doesn't seem to be any impact on safer practices. So we know that of the four studies, of the three studies, really, that can be looked upon here,

two of them suggested that these crack pipes don't actually help. Only one suggested that they did, and the research methodology here is entirely low quality. There is no way that any policymaker, any responsible policymaker should be treating this seriously, and yet this is what Toronto Public Health is doing. Okay, but at some point, we have to treat the people at Toronto Public Health like the adults that they are. They're not children. They are not, and they need to be held to account for the dangerous circumstances that they are putting out there. They are causing for the creation of very dangerous circumstances, not just for drug addicts,

but for people in the community at large, and if they're not following science, then they are somehow in dereliction of duty. And there have to be real-world, practical, severe consequences for people like this who are playing very dangerous games with the lives of people who should be, they should be looking out for. And I agree, but for that to happen, we need to leadership in Toronto City Hall,

and we need leadership in the government of Ontario. and I don't see that at either level of government because in Toronto, Mayor Olivia Chow, you know, she comes from a clique of politicians who love harm reduction, who romanticize it. I mean, you know, her lieutenant here's, counselor Chris Moyes, he always says, he always says he's probably talking about.

He's entirely incompetent when it comes to this file. And for the Ford government, they're always saying, we oppose harm reduction, we oppose radical harm reduction, we want more common sense drug policies. Well, if they believe that, then why isn't that reflected in the operations of their government? It's easy to support something rhetorically. It's easy to support reform rhetorically, but we need actual policy reform.

And what do you think is going to, I mean, are there any names attached to this information that came to you from Integrity TO? Do we have names of the people who were, who signed off on these or who made the requisition for the $2.34 million meth pipes or the $14.92 million syringes? We don't, but here's actually not. other facets of the story that's even more infuriating. You know how I mentioned that 2023 evidence review where they looked over all of these like three or four studies? Well, in that review, they actually doubt, they ignored all of the findings that said that crack pipes don't work, right? And they misleadingly presented these studies to give the impression that this, that giving off free crack pipes is a good idea. So I thought, well,

why would they do this? I looked at the authors of the three co-authors, one of them was the executive director of the Vancouver Association of Drug Users. So basically, a radical activist group, a quote unquote union of drug addicts. And then of the five editors for the document, two of them came from a drug user group in Ontario. So we have active drug addicts and a radical drug activists who are deeply in national policymaking process. So of course, we're getting these ridiculous policies where we get out millions of crack pipes. This is unbelievable, man. I just hope to God that when it comes time for Torontoians to vote stories like this stick in their craw to the point that they don't do what they typically do,

which is sit at home and let the loud activists on the fringe dominate the voter box. And next thing you know, you got Chris Moyzes and you got Osama Malics and you got the bravas of the world at city council. Enough of that. I thank you very much for your time, my friend. Let's not wait so long before you come back to the show. Thanks for having me.