The Ben Mulroney Show - Was Donald Trump joking or disrespecting Trudeau with 51st State comment?

Episode Date: December 3, 2024

Guests and Topics on Today's Show -Was Donald Trump joking about Canada becoming the 51st state - We Discuss -Retired military captain alleges discrimination by Canadian Armed Forces due to service dog with Guest: Andrew Gough, Retired Canadian Armed Forces Captain -When do you trust your kids to travel alone? Guest: Katherine Martinko, Canadian writer and author If you enjoyed the podcast, tell a friend! For more of the Ben Mulroney Show, subscribe to the podcast! https://globalnews.ca/national/program/the-ben-mulroney-show Follow Ben on Twitter/X at https://x.com/BenMulroney Enjoy

Hey, it's Ben Mulroney and welcome to the podcast. We had a packed show today, including Trump's joke about Canada being the 51st state, discrimination in the Canadian military, and when do you trust your kids to travel alone? All that and more on today's podcast, enjoy. Welcome to the Ben Mulroney Show. And if you are just joining us, I'll remind you,

we've been talking about this new emerging detail from the Trump-Trudeau dinner at Mar-a-Lago where they were set to discuss the steps that we need to take in order to make sure we're not slapped with 25 percent tariffs. And the story is that Donald Trump made a joke that some could find disparaging either to our nation or to our nation's leader. Let's listen to Pete Ducey from Fox News. From two people who were at the table, we are told that when Trudeau told President-elect Trump that new tariffs would kill the Canadian economy,

Trump joked to him that if Canada can't survive without ripping off the U.S. to the tune of $100 billion a year, then maybe Canada should become the 51st state and Trudeau could become its governor. Yeah, I hear that. And part of me thinks the inner monologue of Donald Trump is, look, yeah, I know what I said. What are you going to do about it?

Like, that's what I hear in Donald Trump's head. Is that Donald Trump just being Donald Trump? Or does it show how unseriously he takes Justin Trudeau? Do you think he'd ever make that joke about Russia or China or the UK? Does he see us as a second tier ally if he sees us as an ally at all? I want to hear from you at 416-870-6400 or 1-888-225-TALK. Let's jump right in with Christina. Good morning, Christina. Welcome to the Ben Mulroney Show.

Yeah, hi. Yeah, no, I agree. I think he definitely made that comment towards Trudeau because he knows him to be a weak leader and a weak link. So he would not have done that to any other, you know, leader of a country that he feels is somewhat either not of a threat, but anyone with authority. And he sees Trudeau as incompetent. And so he can throw those jabs at him because first off it's true. Cause the last nine years have not been great. And you know what? He, he knows that he won't do anything about it. Yeah. He probably laughed. He laughed to himself, like scared. And he knew exactly what he was doing. I just wanted to say, I'm so happy you have a show. I've been listening to you for years, like coming on as a guest and I've, I love, and I love enjoy, I enjoy been listening to you for years, like coming on as a guest. And I love and I love enjoy.

I enjoy your perspective so much. And I'm just so happy you have your own show. You know what? I'm happy I have my own show, too. Thank you very much, Christina. And I hope you keep listening. Look, we don't even have to bring this back to Xi Jinping or Vladimir Putin. Let me ask you this.

Do you think Donald Trump would ever say anything like that to Jean Chrétien? And if Jean Chrétien ever heard something like that, do you think he would have laughed nervously or do you think he would have given it right back to Donald Trump? What about Stephen Harper? Do you think Stephen Harper, maybe with his depth of knowledge of Canadian history and American history, do you think maybe he would have broken down why that is simply a ridiculous and insulting statement to make? I can promise you my father would not have stood for a joke like that. And frankly, in all three of those cases, I don't know that the Canada sitting at the table with Donald Trump would have warranted a joke like that, merited a joke like that.

It wouldn't have been funny because it wouldn't have been rooted in any sort of reality. Let's welcome to the show. Who do we have? We have Eric. Good morning, Eric. Welcome to the show. Hey, Ben.

Hey. This is Trump being Trump. I love Trump. I've supported him since the day he started. But he obviously has no respect for Trudeau and it's warranted. He's basically calling Trudeau out and he's saying, man up, do something

to your border or it's going to hurt you. And there's nothing wrong with that. Trump is protecting his country just like Trudeau, which he doesn't, but like your father, he wants to protect Canada. Every leader should protect their own country and work together with others. And there's nothing wrong with that.

What do you think of the fact that this was not a detail that the Trudeau camp shared with the media, that we found out about it from the Trump side via Fox? Because it makes Justin look more like Waldo. To me, it's communications 101. You know, the information is going to get out there. So spin it. It had, has his, had our side come out and said, Oh, we had a very fun back and forth ribbing each other. Then with that as a backdrop, this,

this joke and the nervous laughter that ensued wouldn't have landed with such sincerity. No. And you know what you make a good point they could have done damage control yeah to try to save trudeau's turtle face yeah i mean we all know where where he lies as far as canadian politics yeah i echo with that previous lady i love having your your show but i do have a bone to pick with 640 what i can't get any work done now because i have to listen to you in the morning, Alex at noon, and then John at three.

So we've got you all day. I don't have a problem with that. We got a listener for nine straight hours. They're 12 hours. That's a win as far as I'm concerned, my friend. Great show, buddy.

Hey, thanks, man. Talk to you soon. Yeah, we got someone who his complaint is that he turns the radio on at 530 in the morning and doesn't turn it off till 6 p.m. That is our ideal listener right there.

I wish we could send him a mug. OK, let's say hi to Bernie. Bernie, welcome to the show. Thank you. Great to have you on in the morning. Thank you. And I think knowing Trump, as we all know, whether you like him or not, he's great at his economics. And we know from our prime minister, who says the budgets will balance themselves,

that Trump's room is there in front of an audience, which Trump loves. And in good humor, he wanted to see our prime minister's reaction. And if our prime minister wanted to throw him back another zinger, he could have thrown Trump back. Well, you might do something about all the gun smuggling that's coming our way across your side of the border, and maybe we would have heard that in the news too. But he chose not to. You know what? And I'm glad you brought that up because I was speaking with

a journalist from the Globe and Mail yesterday who wrote what we thought was the definitive account of what happened at that dinner. Clearly, there was a big detail that was overlooked. But I asked exactly that. Couldn't we take advantage of that moment, of this moment, where

so much is being asked of Canada? And I believe it's stuff that we should have done without having to be asked. But in that moment, of this moment, where so much is being asked of Canada, and I believe it's stuff that we should have done without having to be asked, but in that moment, we could have turned around and said, hey, if we're looking to better this relationship, can we also put the fact that illegal guns are being smuggled across the border and killing Canadians at a dangerous rate?

You talk about the fentanyl that's coming across. Let's talk about the other scourge, which is illegal guns. And I don't believe that we got an answer to that, but he's absolutely right. You know, Justin doesn't have the strongest position, a bargaining position, but that is a chip he can play. Welcome to the show, Dan. Dan, how do you see this joke? Good morning, Ben. I work with guys Trump's age in New York and in New Jersey for the last 20 years.

And Trudeau, his first three decades were smoking weed, skiing. And Trump was doing the hardest negotiation in the world, which is real estate deals. Trump is playing with Trudeau. He has no respect for him. And there's no way to negotiate with a guy where 70% of our economy is American. We rely on America. No, he has no respect for Trudeau. And a New Yorker of Trump's age will eat Trudeau alive.

He poisons him like a mouse. Yeah, and unlike last time, he's buoyed by a massive mandate. And the Trudeau government is staring down the barrel of an election loss so they they really are in completely different political uh positions right now one has headwinds one has tailwinds thank you very much we got time for one last call it's a how to max good morning max welcome to the show morning bev thank you so i'm not sure if all the listeners know this mexico overtook canada during the last nine years as the U.S.'s largest trading partner.

Under Trudeau, that happened. And to compare Kreutzer and your father to Trudeau, I won't have it. Those men were statesmen. Those men were legends. Trudeau will be forgotten. He'll be referenced to in the past tense as a joke. We will always be in the U.S.'s shadow in terms of our economy. We are nothing without them.

And he has laid down the law protecting his country. Trudeau has done. Can you name me one thing? Seriously, Ben, can you name me one thing Trudeau has done during his tenure that has protected this country that has done good for us? Well,

I've asked that question to big supporters of his and, and they inevitably go back to, well, he got us through COVID. I said, well, there isn't a single country that existed before COVID that doesn't exist after COVID. So that's a straw man right there. But I take your point. And I think this negotiation is not going to be easy. And

I think Donald Trump is going to relish every single second of it. Welcome to Kidsplained, where kids explain how underfunded our schools are. Let's take a call from a listener. Kelly, are you there? Hi, I was wondering why I get less one-on-one time with my teachers. Great question, Kelly. It might have something to do with the fact that we have 3,500 fewer teachers under Doug Ford. Ugh, that sounds about right. Want to help support students and teachers? Visit nomore.ca. That's K-N-O-W-M-O-R-E dot C-A. A message from the Ontario English Catholic Teachers Association. A decorated retired captain and sergeant with the London Police Services has filed a complaint with the Canadian Human Rights Commission

alleging discrimination and differential treatment once his post-traumatic stress disorder became a visible disability because of his service dog. So we're talking now with Captain Andrew Goff, who joined the Canadian Armed Services as a military police member in 1999. And I want to thank you so much for being here, sir. I want to level set with you first. I want you to know that the person you're talking to, um, has deep, deep respect for you and for, um, your service and for your willingness to defend, uh, our freedoms. Uh, and it runs very deep. So I want you to know that from the outset. I appreciate that, Ben. going to ask you a few questions because I want to ask you questions that I'm sure people have on their minds. I assume it's a devil's advocate sort of situation, but they may come across as brusque. They may come across as maybe even a little bit insulting, but I think they're important questions that we have to ask you. Definitely.

All right. So tell me the story of your career trajectory prior to your diagnosis. I would say the trajectory was strong. I had risen through the ranks fairly well. I was on my way to becoming a warrant officer. I decided to commission from the ranks after being invited, which was an honor in itself to be provided that trust. I was about to take over the platoon I joined as a private. And it was shortly after

that invitation that I decided to take control of my PTSD and look at getting myself a service dog to help with my symptoms. And after that... But your symptoms, you were drinking a lot, you had suicidal ideation. There was... Things got pretty dark for you. They were bad. I almost didn't exist anymore. So I was a proud soldier and a proud police officer.

They were my dream vocations. I wanted to stay in them, but it was hurting me. So I sought out, I sought out options for treatment and a service dog was, was one of those options. And so he saves my life every day. He saves your life every day.

And so you're walking around, um, as a member of the military with a service dog, and you start noticing that you're being treated differently? Well, I kept him quiet for quite a long time, as long as I could from the military. Not from policing. They were fairly supportive. But from the military, yes.

And I wouldn't even say that things started off or I was treated differently until I started bringing him around as he should have been always with me. But I kept him quiet. And as soon as I started to bring him around and my injury was now very visible, was out in the open, the treatment that I started to bring him around and my injury was now very visible, was out in the open,

the treatment that I started to see from my commanders, it took quite a different turn. And I would say even discriminatory. Well, there are those who would say, who are proud supporters of the military, who would say what has happened in the military over the past few years and decades in terms of the lack of support for our men and women in uniform is shameful. We want to build it back up to a place where we can project Canadian strength around the world, Canadian values around the world, which will make the world a better place. You've got the leader of the opposition saying that he wants to bring back a warrior culture to the Canadian military.

And some would say, OK, he served his country with honor and distinction. But if we want to get back to that warrior culture, then his his place in the military needs to be as a former military man. He needs to be a veteran. He needs to be honored in that capacity because he simply doesn't have what it takes anymore to be a soldier in our military. What would you say to that? You know, I might see both sides of that coin, you know, having been a professional soldier as well now being a veteran and knowing my limitations. I think where things, you know, maybe become gray in my situation is I knew I was on my way out. The medical release process for members of the military at that time was close to three years. So you can imagine facing a medical release.

I still am a proud soldier. I want to contribute. I want to be part of it. But I am awaiting a process that is beyond my control. And all I'm suggesting in this is that until I was medically released, I should have been treated with much more care, consideration, dignity, and kindness, even for the benefit of all the soldiers coming in behind me. Because this is now what you're known for. Yeah.

Isolating the members, your dedicated members. I gave all of my life to that organization and all I wanted to do was go out with dignity. And I've got to assume, I mean, listen, by definition, there will be members of the military with disabilities, issues that linger far beyond their time in the service. It feels that they might have, I mean, how could they have been caught flat footed with somebody who needs a service dog? I don't have an answer, unfortunately, for that.

I think part of it, it could just be, you know, being part of a reserve unit that there wasn't likely that oversight as that you may have seen in part of a larger regular force operation. And when you have people in positions for decades that perhaps don't think more contemporarily on these issues and perhaps gatekeep certain situations is that, yeah, I think that you can fall through the cracks because people need to know to be able to do anything about it. Is it discrimination if they're able to say,

he can't do the things we need him to do? There are limitations in human rights, like the Federal Human Rights Act, when it comes to military members. They can definitely, you know, you air quote discriminate against certain things that are bona fide job requirements. And yes, they are able to do that.

And I will say, unfortunately, because I think they lose the potential of a lot of great people that are still very capable of producing for the Canadian Armed Forces, whether or not their boots on the ground. Well, yeah, it seems like it's black and white. And the one thing that from my vantage point,

they are completely disregarding is sort of the institutional knowledge, the experience that people like yourself could, you know, like fresh into the military just simply can't offer. I completely agree. You know, my position at the time was a platoon commander. I spent my nights in the field with my service dog, Riggs. In fact, I will say my dog probably has more days in the field than many of my commanders. It was still very capable. And, you know, the fact that I was just blanketed with, you know, these are the rules, this is the policy. Well, you know, sometimes policy forgets to acknowledge the person. And if that's the case, perhaps the policy needs to be addressed. Sergeant, at this point, the horse is out of the barn, but what would be a resolution that

you would find acceptable and honorable? My main focus here is system change. Example, I wasn't even allowed to stay in the same barracks as my troops. I was their commander. And they forced me to sleep in barracks that were a couple kilometers away. And my own commanders, they made fun of me for that. Like, I shouldn't be forced, any member shouldn't be forced to sleep away from anyone. I mean, the symptoms of PTSD are isolation to begin with are one of them. So some policy change when it comes to how members with service don't are addressed. Ultimately, I do believe that a promotion was due and did not occur based

on discriminatory practices. But that's ultimately that's secondary for me. I'm out now. None of this affects me anymore other than trying to change it. They come behind me. Sergeant, we're going to leave it there. But again, thank you for your service and best of luck in this battle. Let's talk criminal justice reform.

We know that when we talk about it and we complain about it, one of the issues that we talk about is how slowly court cases can make their way through the courts until the resolution. In some cases, it takes so long for somebody to get to trial that the courts have to say, that was an unreasonable amount of time that the suspect had to wait and therefore were throwing out the case. We don't have enough space in the jails, so we release people on bail. There's a lot of issues that are brought to bear on an overstressed system. And so there is a push in the province of Ontario to to change the system. There is a researcher who said that in a nutshell,

provinces where police have charging power, like Ontario, you have a high percentage of cases that are stayed or withdrawn. And so the solution could be that instead of having police officers decide whether to lay charges, you give that power to prosecutors. We're joined now by Paul Peterson, Executive

Director of the Ontario Association of Chiefs of Police. Paul, thank you very much for being here. I appreciate it. My pleasure. So I want to make sure we broaden this to a Canadian conversation. So there are, it seems that there are sort of two types of systems. They're the ones where the police lay the charges, and then the ones where the prosecutors sort of look back and say, all right, here's here are the charges that I think that could stick. Is that correct? Yeah, more or less. That is the two different systems operating in this country right now. And are the results as stark as the article led us to believe that where the police lay the charges, you have a backlog because sometimes there's just too many charges?

Well, you know, I don't have the data. I've got the data in front of me, the same as you have. I guess the argument, you know, for those who say it's more successful, the argument is successful for who? You know, holding a counter is offendable is the role of police. Laying charges is the role of police. We're the ones that deal with the victims of crime. We're the ones that have to speak back to the victims of crime when we have reasonable prospect to believe that they're involved in the offense and we have reasonable grounds to believe that they should be arrested. It really is a different system on a decision on whether there's enough efficiencies in the system to prosecute the two are separate the two are separate but because we have these two systems

you know are the what which system do cops prefer but here in ontario we like the system that has a separation between the prosecutor and the investigators yeah and and what and why is that again we're we're the ones that have community safety at? Again, we're the ones that have community safety front of center. We're the ones that are dealing with the victims of crime every day. We're the ones that gather the evidence. We're the ones that understand the strength of the power to arrest. We're the ones that have victim safety in mind, that recognize we have to take people into custody immediately to protect other victims of crime. We're the ones that are out there in the streets downtown where damages are happening to businesses. And we form the grounds to make an arrest.

And separate from that, the prosecutors decide whether there's a reasonable prospect for conviction or whether there's enough time on the docket to hear the case. And are we, Paul, are we looking in the wrong direction? I mean, this is a holistic, it's a system, right? So you've got to look at the entire system. And could there be ways of improving communication between the cops and the prosecutors? Probably. But unless you look at the whole system, you're not going to solve a systems-wide problem. And so the question is, are we not looking where we should? Should we be hiring more judges? We have a dearth of federal judges. At one point, there was so many of them vacancies that were left unfilled that you couldn't you couldn't get in before a

judge in a timely manner, timely fashion. Well, I'm really glad you asked that. This really is an ecosystem, an entire system. It also begs the question, you know, what other alternatives are there to judicial systems that might hold those with a whole bunch of underlying issues, not the least of which is mental health conditions and addictions, that can hold them accountable and actually get them the help that they need as opposed to, you know, bringing them forward to a judicial system that is overstressed. We work 24-7. The court system doesn't work 24-7. So there's always going to be a challenge in working everything through. More judges, more crowns, more court time, more defense attorneys, more supports. It really is a systems approach.

And I'm glad to say that the police, the Ontario Association of Chiefs of Police and members of the Ministry of the Attorney General and Solicitor General are working at some of those solutions right now. So in the province of Ontario, there are, you know, we have the system that exists. And according to the data presented, it leads to a lot of charges getting thrown out. Is there a province in Canada that you feel is doing things right, that has the best practices that should be adopted elsewhere? You know, this is one of the things. There's lessons that can be learned in a number of different locations.

Manitoba has some success with diversion courts. We've had some success in Ontario with community hub courts, dedicated mental health courts. There's a lot of places we can look for success, but I don't I don't equate not holding an offender accountable and not laying a charge as successful. There are there are some things that don't belong in the judicial system, but it shouldn't be dependent on the efficiency of the system. You'll never hear me say that the notion of defund the police was a good idea. I thought it was quite a destructive force that we've had to deal with for far too long. However, that being said, the idea, I think one element of defund the police

runs in parallel to what you just said, which is not everything is a police matter. And could the solution here across the country be recognizing, as you just said, that there are certain times where the are the the proper tool for the job. And and going a step further, having making sure that not all of these things arrive in civil or criminal court, but rather they arrive in a mental health adjudication process or youth adjudication process. I mean, could that could that be the holistic approach that we need by recognizing that not everything belongs in the same pot? I think I think that absolutely is the solution. That's what we're working for. Many communities, in fact, all communities have community safety and well-being plans, and they need to be robust enough to be able to be accessed after hours. For the most part, the only services that are available are the emergency service,

fire, EMS, and police after hours and at 2 o'clock in the morning. And the police are the ones that respond to more and more of these calls. We're even responding to calls where EMS needs help. of life in Canada where we all we have great, wonderful plans that we don't execute on or we don't give the proper funding for so that we see a half baked version of something that were it fully baked would be wonderful. But instead, it's it's it's useless. Yeah, I mean, there really is something to be said about, you know, the effectiveness of some of these systems. And we need to invest in that and and we need to work collaboratively. Police still need to be at the table for safety, but we don't need to respond to every call. No, I completely agree. So, Paul, what would you do

if in the province of Ontario they decided to move ahead with these changes and take that power away from the police? Well, I mean, it'd be a challenge. We'd have to have some real discussions about what do we do next then? You know, who speaks to the victim? How do we protect recidivism? We'd have to have a lot of discussions. But would you, I mean, because there are places in the province, uh, in the country that, that, uh, that, that have a similar situation.

Um, are you having those discussions right now, just on the off chance that this change does come into effect? Because it would be a whole new, new way of doing, of, of policing in Ontario. We're absolutely in these conversations, both with the ministry of the solicitor general who overse who oversees policing and corrections, among other things, and the Ministry of the Attorney General. And the conversations are positive. The conversations are proactive and we're looking at solutions. I think we all respect the separate roles of the police and the prosecutor. And I think I think that's that's the way we're going to move forward. Paul Peterson, executive director of the Ontario Association of Chiefs of Police. Thank you. And thank you for your service.

My pleasure. Thanks for your support. When I was a kid, wherever I went, I went with at least one, mostly two members of the RCMP in tow. They would drive me places. If I walked anywhere, they walked with me. If I skied anywhere, they skied right behind me. If we went water skiing, they were in a boat right behind us. It was just how my life was. And I remember the feeling when I was 16 or 17, I think 17 years old, of walking down the street for the first time without police protection. It felt very vulnerable, very weird. I got over it pretty quick, I'll be honest.

When I was down in university, I went to university in the United States, I didn't have protection, but it was such a new environment to be down there anyway. Everything was new. So the act of not having the police with me didn't feel like the new thing. And so independence came late to me but i appreciated the importance of it and when i became a parent i my wife and i had a lot of discussions on when do our kids get independence what kind of parents are we going to be are we

going to be helicopter parents are we going to be snowplow parents? And we decided it was natural to us that we wanted them to have that independence early on, you know, somewhere between latchkey kids of the 80s and 90s and something a little more rational. And we're joined now by Catherine Martinko, writer and author. She wrote a piece called, I let my nine-year-old ride his bike alone to the store because independence is crucial. I agree with every word. Welcome to the show, Catherine. Thanks, Ben.

It's great to be here. So did you get any pushback from letting your kid ride their bike to the store alone at nine? Surprisingly not. Of course, I was looking at the comments as one does, and I would say the vast majority are very much in favor. There's a lot of nostalgia, people who are reflecting on their own childhoods and all of the independence that they had as kids growing up

and just recognizing how valuable it was to them and how they wish that more kids these days enjoy that as well. Well, yeah, I mean, so many of the stories, I hear these little stories, right? But they all combine into a feeling that we've done something to our kids that needs to be in a great many ways undone. I would hear stories that there was a push for kids to wear helmets playing soccer. The stories of kids on leashes, the idea that structured play dates are the only way that your kids can have fun. When I was a kid, I went to a school in Montreal and the mothers in the neighborhood had a taxi cab driver who would come to pick us all up and drive us all to the school. And there was no seat for me in there.

So, you know, we're in a limo when you sit in a town car and there's a where they're in the back by the window where they keep the Kleenex. That was my seat. That was my seat. And I nobody had a problem with it. Now, I'm not suggesting that was necessarily safe, but I survived. And you put all of these little pieces together. And I don't know that it's just nostalgia. I think there was there was more. I don't know. Do we have more confidence in our kids? Yeah, well, I do think that the more we let our kids go out and do things on their own, the more competent they become. And then the more trust is developed between both the parent and the child. And then the parent, in turn, feels more confident letting the kid do those things. So it's sort of this

kind of positive feedback loop that benefits both people. And definitely, I think we've become overly preoccupied with safety and we are losing sight of, you know, all the things that kids miss out on when they're not given these opportunities. We know that anxiety and depression is on the rise and that is correlated with a loss of independence. So we do know from studies that the more kids get out and exercise reasonable degrees of independence, the better off they are psychologically. Yeah. Well, I, um, you know, I've got two, I got twin boys who are 14 and my daughter is 11 and the, because the boys are identical twins, they've done,

they do everything together all the time. And, and when we got a dog, the rule was you can start walking the dog on your own when, when you're old enough and big enough to control the time. And when we got a dog, the rule was you can start walking the dog on your own when you're old enough and big enough to control the dog. And that happened when they were just around, I think they're around 10. I think they were 10. And they've been walking to school on their own for a while. Things came a little later for our daughter for a number of reasons one she's littler smaller two she's alone versus having two of them and three and I'm not going to apologize to anyone for this

she's a girl and you know and to anybody who says that's wrong I just watched a special called Who Killed John Benet Ramsey not Who Killed John Ramsey and so that's how I see the world and I'm not going to apologize to anybody for it, but what do you say to a dad

who says what I just said to you? Well, I think that it's great that you are letting the kids go out. And definitely it depends on the family. You have to feel comfortable with it. But I do encourage parents to sort of challenge their perception of when they think the kid is ready.

And if a kid is expressing a desire for independence, I think it's really important for the parents to respond to that, you know, to listen to them. You know, you can go out with them, kind of test their skills, let them take the lead, determine whether or not they can cross the street on their own, have them do little errands with you. If you go to the store, send them off, you know,

into a different aisle with a grocery list to collect different things or, you know, park in a central location and tell them to meet you back there in a few minutes. Oh yeah, but Catherine, we never forget. We never forget that moment where we lose sight of our kid for the first time, that pit that you feel immediately in the gut of your stomach because you go to the worst place immediately. And, of course, they're right around the corner in the cereal or the cookie section, but until you skitch your eyes back on them, it's a feeling you never want to feel again.

I know, I know, and we definitely have to push back against that, it's a feeling you never want to feel again. I know, I know. And we definitely have to push back against that, though, because it's a human instinct, but we risk, you know, keeping our children hostage, making them little prisoners if we can't let go of that on some level. And right now, I definitely think that in our society, we're overly obsessed with the idea that, you know, worst case scenarios are just around the corner every second. And I mean, it is every parent's nightmare, but it's pretty statistically negligible that a kid is going to get kidnapped. I believe the statistic is you'd have to loiter on a street corner for 750,000 years in that, you know, stranger in a white van scenario. So it's, it's really not likely going to happen. That's a great stat, Catherine. I love it.

Yeah. And have you noticed any positive improvements in your child since that first inaugural bike ride into the ether? Well, I should point out, I mean, this isn't just a one-off. It was a particular incident or event that I wrote about, but I have three boys of my own. They're 9, 13, and 15. So we've been exercising this kind of independence for a very long time. My older boys have gone off on their own for years and done their own thing. And this was the first time that my youngest had done it. He biked to Walmart two kilometers away. He had to cross four lanes of traffic, all because he wanted to buy some Beyblades, which are the latest

toy craze in his classroom. But the reason I wrote about it in particular was because of this story in the US. The same week that I let my son go, there was another mother who let her 10-year-old, or he walked into town. She didn't actually know where he'd gone, but he did walk a similar distance into town and then she was arrested and charged with reckless conduct. So I just felt like the comparison

between these two experiences was very striking to me. You know how, for me, it was this really positive growth experience. And meanwhile, another mother is getting punished for doing the exact same thing. There was a single father in Vancouver a few years ago who had a number of children and ranging in various ages. And he spent the entire summer teaching them how to navigate the city's transit system so that they could go to school while he was at work. And Child Protective Services was called on him because people felt that strangers on the bus thought it was very odd that these

young kids didn't have adult supervision. And I thought, well, what's he supposed to do? Oh, I know. I remember hearing that story. I do think that it has to be up to the parents to determine when a child is ready to exercise this level of independence. It really isn't up to the state. I find it quite scary, actually, that bystanders and police and the state in general have the right to tell us as parents when we think our kids are mature enough to run an errand for us or walk to the park or just go visit a friend. So I do think that that's something that we need to sort of reclaim when it comes to our own parental authority. We need to normalize the sight of kids being out in the street. I agree. I agree. You know, I'm fortunate we live in a neighborhood where we feel very, very safe knowing that our kids are out in the street. I agree. I agree. You know, I'm fortunate. We live in a neighborhood where we feel very, very safe knowing that our kids are out in the street, but, uh, you do have to,

you got to give yourself license to feel that way as well, because society is pushing back against those feelings saying, no, no, no, it's too dangerous out there. Yeah, for sure. And I, I recognize that there are families who live in areas who maybe can't do that as easily as I can. Um, I live in a small town. There are busy streets. You know, traffic scares me a lot more than strangers. Yeah, me too. I think that we could make a lot of efforts to, you know, implement better traffic calming measures in our town and in a lot of places for sure. Catherine Martinko, we're going to have to leave it there. But thank you so much.

The article's in the Globe and Mail. It says, I let my nine-year-old ride his bike alone to the store because independence is crucial. Thank you so much for the conversation. Thank you, Ben. I enjoyed it. Thanks so much for listening to the podcast. independence is crucial. Thank you so much for the conversation. Thank you, Ben. I enjoyed it. Thanks so much for listening to the podcast. We hope you enjoyed it. And you'll join us tomorrow with another loaded edition of The Ben Mulroney Show.