The Ben Mulroney Show - What have we learned about police oversight after the TPS corruption shocker

Episode Date: February 6, 2026

GUEST: KARI Vieremaa /  former journalist – co-author of “thunder bay police board independent expert panel report” in 2023. GUEST:   Dave Perry/ Founding Chairman , Investigative Solutions Network Inc. /  former detective sergeant specializing in  homicide, sexual assault and other violent crime investigations. If you enjoyed the podcast, tell a friend! For more of the Ben Mulroney Show, subscribe to the podcast! ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://link.chtbl.com/bms⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Also, on youtube -- ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.youtube.com/@BenMulroneyShow⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Follow Ben on Twitter/X at https://x.com/BenMulroney Insta: ⁠⁠⁠@benmulroneyshow⁠⁠⁠ Twitter: ⁠⁠⁠@benmulroneyshow⁠⁠⁠ TikTok: ⁠⁠⁠@benmulroneyshow⁠⁠⁠ Executive Producer:  Mike Drolet Reach out to Mike with story ideas or tips at [e-mail] Enjoy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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What protocols are in place to ensure that the people who are there to protect us are doing so. And so in order to take a good hard look at this, we're joined by Kari, Vyermah. He's a former journalist, but also the co-author of Thunder Bay Police Board Independent Expert Panel Report in 2020. And so it's, I'm welcome Carrie back to the show. Hey, Ben, great to be with you. So before we jump into the questions about the here and now, give the listeners of the show an idea of what happened in Thunder Bay. So the Thunder Bay Police Service and Service Board had a lot of fundamental challenges from allegations of systemic racism, to loss of trust within that community, to governance issues within the

Police Services Board, which led to charges, one, charges that were found acquitted from a previous police chief on corruption. And then now there is currently the former police chief and former police chief attorney who are facing various charges that are before the courts. And so what happened? What did they put in terms of tweaks to their system to ensure that, that the people who are paying attention to the police have the power and the capacity to do that job?

The part of it is being critical, critical thinking. Think of it this way within a corporate world. Boards and directors of companies are not best friends with their CEOs. They hold their CEOs accountable. That's the same thing here. So part of the things that change within Thunder Bay also changed within the province of Ontario. There was reforms to the Police Services Act

that then led to increased levels of oversight. The job of police service boards are to ensure that there's effective policies in place when it comes to human resources and otherwise. Their job is to hold the upper management of police services ultimately accountable. So what you saw and the work that's currently underway by the board in its current capacity is building trust with communities through further community outreach. It's also fundamentally reforming policies to ensure that there is a higher standard of policing. that kind of balance between, you know, say, Ben, you're the CEO of a company and I'm the board. I give you direction that we want to grow these particular areas.

Your job is to come up with the plan on how to do that. So that's the balance of the relationship. And so when there's this fundamental gap of trust that's happening in Toronto, the police service board did the right thing by following up and supporting the chief of police and referring this to the inspector general of policing whose job it is to be that oversight in Ontario. So I guess the question I have for you is, well, first, I'll tell you, I'll preface it by saying, I've opened the phone lines a number of times today. And I had a number of people call in to say what we're witnessing here is proof that the system works. And what I said off the top of the show was a lot to be proud of in a lot of police officers from a lot of different departments over the course of months to uncover this. I'm sad that I have to be proud of them because of this negative backdrop. But I guess when you heard the story and you learned the details,

was your conclusion that this was proof that the system worked the way it's supposed to? Or the very nature of the crimes, the alleged crimes, is demonstration that there needs to be more oversight. I think the reality is it's a demonstration that there needs to be more oversight. And I give credit where credit is due to the chief of police. as well as the Police Services Board who has sent a referral to the Inspector General of Policing, asking for a review in five different areas to see whether we need to actually increase oversight, whether it's through stronger policies or otherwise.

So that's part of it. When you have the leadership of the service from the chief level as well as the board, acknowledging that this raises fundamental questions into how we do policing, that is telling you the system is working. Now, is the system going to work? Ultimately, it's going to be what happens from the provincial government onward. And the scary thing, Ben, is this happened in Ontario, despite Ontario having the strongest police oversight in Canada. That is the part that should be chilling for Canadians listening right now. Yeah.

And thank you for bringing that up because I think a lot of listeners, I think a lot of people across the city of Toronto, or and people who are listening to this from across the country, look at the level of corruption and the number of people involved. And the assumption would be because so much corruption was uncovered, well, that must mean that the system itself is flawed far more significantly than in other places. Well, I mean, look, corruption is so pervasive in Quebec. They have a specific interdisciplinary corruption unit. So, you know, I'll leave it at that.

But the reality is there are only four. provinces in Canada that really have a systemic overview body and others have limited or mixed oversight. So this is the thing. You know? I support frontline officers. So you get me wrong here. But fundamentally for them to build trust, they need to be held accountable. We need to encourage trust in transparency. And we need to, you know, protecting fellow officers, you got to protect the good officers. Well, that's what I liked here. I liked that it didn't feel like, you know, we've seen the movies all the time,

that the thin blue line went way up and they started protecting each, they protect their backs. No one seemingly whispered to anybody and said, hey, by the way, buddy, guy, you know, the guy I've been rolling with since the Academy, they're coming for you. So you got to protect yourself.

Well, you know, and I give the TPA credit in their statements today that I think back to when James Frasillo, former constable in Toronto, who was found guilty of killing, sending a team on a TTC streetcar. The TPA's communication from when that individual was charged versus the charges that we saw today, two very different communications pieces, one that's grounding in their legislative responsibility as a union to support their members while at the same time not making this

overreach of innocent until proven guilty. The allegations alone are disturbing. If they are found guilty, that is even more disturbing. and I think the TPA threaded the needle effectively on that point. So we don't know a lot yet. We know what we know. But at first blush, what sort of changes to the oversight body and the oversight system? What do you think is needed with what we know today?

Well, fundamentally, one of the big changes that I actually give credit to the government for doing, chiefs of police in Ontario were long fighting for the ability to suspend without pay. And this is the case for Jordan James Rosillo. He faced manslaughter charges, I believe, and he was making hundreds of thousands of dollars for year as it snucked its way through the courts. These officers are now suspended without pay. So that is an important factor in all of this. As for the other things I think need to be reviewed, there needs to just be more oversight.

And frankly, the minimum level of education required to become a police officer, I think, should be stronger. There needs to be more around things like ethics and ensuring that there's more 360 oversight, of what officers are doing so they can't have these abusive powers, as are alleged. So the investigation into these cops that led to their arrest has been done as they prepare for, you know, what will be inevitably, I'm assuming court cases. I mean, I can't imagine something like this is going to be pled down. But is what's uncovered in the investigation that leads to the court case.

That's when they're going to be investigating or talking to staff sergeants, commanders, the people that worked with these cops. to ask them, did you see anything? Did you ever notice anything untoward? Do you think that information to find out what people knew and when they knew, if anything, will be studied when it comes time to beef up our oversight? Yes, absolutely. And this goes back to the letter that was sent to the inspector general,

asking him to inspect five different areas. Provision in Spanish control, which is something you're just talking about, screening and vetting, access to police databases, is evidence and property management practices and substance abuse and fitness for duty. I think everybody from policing in this country is going to be watching this case as it unfolds. And I certainly hope solicitor generals and ministers of justice across Canada are looking at this and asking their civil servants to look to see where the gaps of their existing legislation to ensure that something like this doesn't happen again.

So when you look at it, are you, like I said, I stopped my car today. I stopped my car on my way to the, I'm going home from an errand. I saw some police officers in a cruiser rolled down my window and I told him like today more than ever I want to say thank you for your service because I wanted them to know like I'm not somebody who's going to tar every frontline officer with with the same brush. But are you, I don't even have a lot of time left here, but are you? No, but Ben, Ben, actually, I'm just going to hop in here because I agree with what you're saying. And so back when I was supporting the Thunder Bay Police Service Board with some communications work, I remember a critical moment where we were communicating messaging. I support good officers. I support the officers who are doing the work that we need to build trust.

It's that subtle difference. That is absolutely critical. I support officers doing good work. So do I. Cari Verme, I got to leave it there. Thank you so much. Really appreciate your expertise today. Enjoy amazing days for one more week at Metro.

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We have been talking about the biggest corruption scandal to rock any police force that I've ever seen across this country. It's a huge seven-month investigation unveiled a terrible corruption amongst alleged corruption that has led to the arrest of seven current police officers, one former. And we promised you at the top of the Ben Mulroney show that we would give you as much information in real time as we would get it. And that's happening right now. City Councilor Shelley Carroll, who's also the head of the Toronto Police Services Board, is at the microphone giving us her update.

Let's listen. Good evening. Well, I've been in touch with the Chief and the Mayor throughout the day, and now I do want to deliver a brief update on behalf of the Toronto Police Service Board. This investigation, yet you learned of today, raises serious public concerns related to police integrity and public safety. Public trust in policing is fundamental. The board, the Toronto Police Service Board holds all members. members of the Toronto Police Service accountable to high standards of professionalism, integrity, and utmost accountability.

These allegations of criminal conduct are taken extremely seriously by the Board. Given the gravity of the allegations and the broader impacts for public concern, the Board and Toronto Police Chief Myron Demp. Have taken the steps of asking that there is a formal request for an independent and comprehensive inspection by the Inspector General of Policing for Ontario. Given the gravity of the allegations the broader concerns they raise we want a credible and transparent assessment to identify some of the steps needed to strengthen our accountability and public safety.

In its request the board has asked the inspector general to pay particular attention to the following concerns and I want to really itemize them and They are supervision and span of control, recruitment screening, and ongoing vetting, access to police databases and information systems, evidence and property management practices, and substance use and fitness for duty. While the criminal investigation proceeds, the board remains committed to ensuring that the Toronto Police Service reflects the values of the community that we serve, that it serves all members and that the members remain accountable to uphold the laws that they were sworn to uphold.

I also want to emphasize that every day we know the thousands of members, both uniform and civilian, in the Toronto Police Service, they carry out demanding, sometimes unseen work on behalf of the community that they are here to protect. They are guaranteeing our public safety. And we recognize them. we recognize that today is a very difficult day for them the board is most cognizant of that their professionalism and their commitment to continue to underpin the delivery of public safety in the city of toronto is absolutely not to be taken for granted and with that i'll take some questions if you will castler just when it comes to that review there have been calls to go even further with a judicial review and i'm just wondering if you would support something like that

Well, it's early days. We're in the first 24 hours, and the investigation is ongoing. And so that may be a matter for the future. What we felt was important was that the Inspector General of policing begin immediately. You know, the Inspector General still hasn't actually responded just reviewing that. How quickly would you like to get a response on that? Well, I suspect that we'll have a response very quickly. We're still in the first 24 hours. There's a lot of communication going in.

in all directions but he did get that that request almost almost immediately after the board was briefed yesterday and so i'm sure he's uh he's crafting response as we speak council do you think the chief should reside over this i have the utmost confidence in our chief he is today uh doing his best to to reflect all of the values of the toronto police service and to get to the bottom of this investigation. He has made sure that there is full cooperation with Chief McSween's investigation of the matter. So we have both independent objectivity and utmost cooperation, I have full confidence in the chief's addressing of this matter.

Earlier today, the mayor said the chief will need to institute systemic change in the force. What do you think that should look like? Well, that's why the Inspector General's review is so important that we wanted to begin immediately. different TISA reviews can take different sort of legal hurdles, but the inspector can begin almost immediately. And it's important to remember that the chief has complete supervision over operational matters. Any change that the investigation indicates to him,

he can take immediately through routine orders out to the service. Next week, counsel will, of course, be voting on its budget, and there is a sizable budget increase. And that was Shelley Carroll, City Councilor, who's also the chair of the police service board. And I'm not someone who says this often, but I commend her for striking a very good tone. The tone was she commended our brave men and women in service.

She says she's got the chief's back. She says what she's seen emboldens her, that he did all the right things in this investigation. She says there are some changes that need to happen. She referenced the letter to, in in search of an investigation and that what she pointed out

I believe what I know so far about this case, I believe that the changes that they're looking in terms of recruitment and substance use and whether someone is fit for duty

would be welcome changes. Updating those protocols would be welcome change. She was But I think the most important thing was that she was asked if Myron Demkew, our chief of police, should be fired over this. Yes, she'll listen to a little more. To provide accountability locally will be made public as soon as it can be. Just on some of the recommendations that you're looking for, including fitness for duty,

what's being done, or what is your expectation from the board's perspective to make sure that that's actually being done? now that you're not waiting on the Inspector General that the force is actually looking into this at the moment? Well, in asking the Inspector General to look at it, I don't know if people will know this, but it's always the case that the minute you begin to engage in a review, if something services that should have immediate action, that's true with any Auditor General or any other accountability officer. If there's something that can and should be acted on immediately, it is. And I sincerely hope that that will be the case here. I know that we're always open to work with the Inspector General of policing. And so I know that in their work collaboratively to get this review done

and in their work with York Region who've taken the objective look, if there's something that needs to be acted on now, it will be. Last question. Okay, thank you. Good night. Yeah, so that was Shelly Carroll. That was short and sweet. I think she was very direct. I think she was very helpful in adding a little clarity to this, to where we are now.

It seems like from her perspective, things are, this is a good thing, that all of this corruption was uncovered. And that Myron Demkew has, she has his back. And so I think what we're going to do is we're going to take a break. Which one? Myron Demkew responding to the question of whether or not you... So we heard from Shelley Carroll said that she supports Myron Demkew. Earlier in the day with Dave Bradley here at 640 Toronto, he was asked, will you resign? Your first question, no.

Secondly, right now my job is very much focused on dealing with the immediate aftermath of this investigation. And as you've heard, the investigation continues. and I will continue to lead to Toronto Police and supporting this very important work and continuing our commitment to work with the York Regional Police Service to leave no stone unturned. All right, no stone unturned.

That is, I think, what everyone in this city expects. If there is corruption in the police, now is the time to root it out. More on this developing story when we come back from the break. All right, we're continuing to look at this corruption scandal that was uncovered inside in the heart of the Toronto Police Service.

and we told you we to look at it from as many angles as possible, so please welcome to the show Dave Perry. He's the founding chairman of Investigative Solutions Network, Inc. He's a former detective sergeant specializing in homicide, sexual assault, and other violent crime investigations. Dave, first and foremost, thank you for your service. Yeah, my pleasure. A tough day in policing here in Toronto right across the country.

Yeah, how did you feel when you heard the news? Oh, my God. I think, like everybody, shocking and disturbed about these outside. allegations is probably the best place to start. And, you know, I've been around policing for almost 50 years. And in my 50 years, I've never heard of such a serious corruption allegation linking officers to organize crime and all kinds of very, very serious criminal matters. So I've talked to probably dozens of current and former police officers today. And that's right across the board.

The response has been disgusting, disturbing, appalling, offensive. of everybody's offended to their core. Well, yeah. That this potentially could impact, you know, what we all find to be a very honorable career, one that we served, you know, with distinguishment. And to have this happen is not an easy thing for any of us to accept. So what, at first blush when you heard this story,

you must have thought some things that the average Torontoian doesn't think. With your expertise, your mind must have gone to certain places that other people's minds didn't go. Where, what was your first thought when you heard about this, this corruption, breadth of it and and the allegations. Yeah, I mean, my first thought was, you know, again, after trying to get myself back up after being so shocked and horrified was, you know, really a question, how and why did this

happen and who are these officers? Yeah. You know, what is the connection and, you know, how do we, how do we, this group of officers get so lost? And I don't, I don't say that in a supportive way. just the opposite way, frankly. And I think all of us, you know, members of the public and, of course, police officers who are also members of the public, one. And it's, you know, good to hear that obviously, you know, the chief of Toronto and the chief of York Region both came out very strong and very transparent about the allegations and laid that out quite nicely.

And also Clayton Campbell, who is the president of the Toronto Police Association, also. you know, made his feelings known. And I just want to reiterate that I don't know a single police officer that dislikes anything more than a corrupt cop. Yeah, well, that, you are echoing certain statements that others have made on this show so far today. But I heard earlier from a guest that I had that Toronto actually has some of the most stringent oversight of any police service in the country. and could could this be a case of organized crime just becoming so sophisticated in how they how they how they get officers to break bad that they that their their sophistication is just

more sophisticated than the oversight required to catch this early yeah that's that's a great question i'm guessing and i'm just guessing that a lot of what's happened here is motivated by greed. Yeah. And, you know, motivated by officers who either slip through the very stringent background screening that's required for police officers and or became corrupt through their association of criminals, whether it be through arrests that they made or things that they did off duty.

But, you know, this is clearly something that is motivated by greed. And it's just horrifying. I think the police officers involved with giving out sensitive information that led to shootings and violent crimes and potentially, you know, a murder. Yeah. And so on. It's just, it's mind-boggling. Well, let me ask you a question, because I can hear it in your voice that you are taking this very personally. And I'm sorry for that.

I know how hard the job is. I know how, you know, part of the, we can never pay cops as much as they deserve based on the risk that they take. and so part of the compensation is the belief that you're you're holding the line belief that you are and so so this i can i can appreciate i can hear it in your voice that you are hurt for yourself for the legacy of cops and for how they're seen on the streets would you feel better do you think cops would feel better if upon investigating this further we uncovered that the motivation of these cops who got caught up in this was you know they were in the they did They made a bad decision.

It was leveraged by the criminal element, and they were forced into this. No, no, I wouldn't feel better. You wouldn't feel better by it. No, okay. No, not one bit. As a matter of fact, quite the opposite. And why? Listen, we all, we all.

Hold on. I'm just, I'm trying to, I'm trying to wrap my head around a sort of an existence that is not mine. So, sure. So if I found out that one of these cops was, I don't know, he was a, they honeypotted him, right? and he didn't want to, he was drunk one day. He was in a situation where these organized criminals got him drunk or drugged him, and next thing you know, he's sleeping with a woman that's not his wife, and now they've got this information on him.

And they said they'd only need his help once, and he did it once. The next thing you know, they come back a second, a third, a fourth, a fifth time, and in for a penny, in for a pound. That doesn't change anything for you. Yeah, I get where you're going with this, Ben. I know it doesn't. And I can tell you, I don't pretend to speak for every officer, but certainly the dozens I spoke to, they would say the same thing.

Too bad, so sad, you made the mistake, you're accountable, you own it, you wear the badge, you know what to do. If you're compromised, you know what to do. And the easy thing would be to report into your supervisors, you know, commander, professional standards, fall in the sword, as they say, and admit that you were compromised and get the help that you need and quite frankly go after the criminals that are extorting you, if that's in fact where it was. But I don't believe for a second that's what happened. No, that's right.

I was going to go back to what you said. You mentioned greed. You think it was the almighty dollar. Well, I can't think of any other motivation, quite frankly. There's got to be a financial reward for anybody to be so corrupt and to put the public at risk, the very public that we're supposed to serve and the public that we're supposed to keep safe for them to behave in this manner. I can only think that it's financial gain that's at the root of all this.

That certainly doesn't excuse anything. just the opposite. You know what? We all get, as police officers, our reward is to chase the bad guys and to arrest criminals and bad people while we're protecting all of those that are the good people. And these officers have thrown themselves in that category. I don't know a police officer that wouldn't be excited to join that task force and

aggressively go after these guys. And quite frankly, I'd love to be the person that put the handcuffs on these guys. and hold them accountable for everything they've done to the public and to what they've done to the reputation of police officers across the country. So you're saying that that image that people have, and that we still see in media, right? We still see it in movies that, you know, the cops will take care of their own,

even if it means one of them broke the law. You're saying that is that a vestige of the past? Well, I'm not going to say that it's a vestige of the past, but it's certainly a perception that people have. Yeah. But listen, police officers become very invested in their profession. Yeah. They become invested with the men and women that they work with.

And you have to trust that person in every way, including, and I've had it. I've been in life-threatening situations in my policing career. And thankfully, had people standing beside me that made sure that no harm was going to come to me and put their lives at risk. And that's what you need. And obviously, you know, when officers conduct themselves in this manner and are corrupt, all of that trust and that confidence has gone. And I can't think of other than corrupt police officers like the seven that were named today. I can't think of anybody I ever worked with that would get a sniff of this and would say, hey, we got to do something about this. So it's a bad day for policing.

But I think that we as police officers will recover from this and understand that generally speaking, the public trust is and support. us. Yeah. Dave, I've got one more question for you, but before I ask it, I want to, I want to tell you that I, I've, I've spoken to a lot of people on this show today. And there, there is, there is still a lot of trust out there in, in frontline police officers. And they believe that, that, that, that, that, that, you know, you're not going to, you're not going to screen out every single bad guy at the academy. You're not going to do that. Some will slip through the, slip through the cracks.

and so what you do when you uncover that that corruption, that's what matters. And I can't, I've never heard of anything like this, but seven months to get from, from the initial sort of flashpoint to this, that seems like they move pretty freaking fast to me. But my last question to you, Dave, is Shelley Carroll, the head of the Toronto Police Service Board and city councilor got up to a microphone. I have to say, I believe she acquitted herself quite well. I think she said very clearly that this was a.

a system that worked and the police need to be supported. And she was asked point blank, do you have Myron Demkew, the police chiefs back? Should he stay in his position? And she said, yes, indeed he's the right man for the job. Do you agree? I do. 100%. Okay.

So what did you see today that told you, yeah, heck yeah? Well, first of all, everything that was happening at some point would have been a complete unknown. The chief and every police officer on the service would have no way. knowing that this was happening until somebody stepped forward and some evidence was presented. And then it's what they did once they heard. And that's the general rule in law enforcement is, you know, when did you hear it? And what did you hear?

And then what did you do about it? And clearly they launched a massive joint force investigation. And that has got an awful lot of webs to it and came to the results they did. As you said, in fairly quick time, seven months is pretty quick. when the arrests were made, full transparency, letting the public know. And I like the fact that we're already heading down to an Inspector General review because that's truly what's going to be needed. Yeah.

In addition to the criminal charges and the court processes, there needs to be a review and identify again, how and why did this happen and what can we do to, you know, to make our systems even stronger to prevent this and identify officers before it gets this bad. Listen, Michael Cain's Alfred told Batman, told Bruce Wayne, why do we fall so we can learn to pick ourselves back up? The police of Toronto are honorable people and they know how to pick themselves up and Dave Perry, you know, you are once one of them. They will come back stronger after this. I do thank you for your time. Absolutely.

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