The Ben Mulroney Show - What is Canada thinking regarding Israel? And hockey culture needs a shake.

Episode Date: September 18, 2025

-  Alan Kessel – former assistant deputy minister for legal affairs and legal adviser to Global Affairs Canada - Ariella Garmaise - Associate Editor The Walrus If you enjoyed the podcast, tell a friend! For more of the Ben Mulroney Show, subscribe to the podcast! ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://link.chtbl.com/bms⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Also, on youtube -- ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.youtube.com/@BenMulroneyShow⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Follow Ben on Twitter/X at https://x.com/BenMulroney Insta: ⁠@benmulroneyshow⁠ Twitter: ⁠@benmulroneyshow⁠ TikTok: ⁠@benmulroneyshow⁠ Enjoy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Welcome to the Ben Mulroney show. It's Thursday, September 18th. Thank you so much for spending some time with us. Some news that came up today that we will be addressing tomorrow on the show, but it's news that sort of popped up, surprised a lot of people. This was not something that was brought up on the campaign trail, and therefore it's surprising to me. Sean Fraser, the Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada,

issued the following statement as Attorney General of Canada. I filed a factum with the Supreme Court of Canada outlining Canada's position on constitutional issues raised by the use of the notwithstanding clause. So essentially they are asking the Supreme Court to render a decision as to how often the provinces, under what circumstances the provinces are allowed using the notwithstanding clause.

If you don't know what the notwithstanding clause is, it's part of the charter. We would not have the charter today, were it not for the notwithstanding clause. There were a lot of provinces that wanted nothing to do with the charter. This was put in there to satisfy their fears. And they were told, essentially, if a court renders a decision against a provincial government, they can use the notwithstanding clause to set aside that judgment for five years,

pursue their agenda, and it will be re-evaluated five years later. I guess this government doesn't like the fact that the provinces want to fulfill the will of the people. And they feel that the unelected judges should have more power. I find it really weird that a group of unelected judges are going to rule on whether or not to give more power to other unelected judges. But that is a conversation for tomorrow. Instead, we are going to focus on Canada's position as it relates to Israel and the Palestinian people and Gaza. We are doing this with the backdrop of Canada as well as another Western allies soon to recognize a Palestinian state, as well as the United Nations declaring that the fiction, as I see it, of a genocide perpetrated

by Israel is now a fact. Please welcome to the show Alan Kessel, former Assistant Deputy Minister of Legal Affairs and Legal Advisor to Global Affairs Canada. He's also Canada's former Deputy High Commissioner in the United Kingdom. Mr. Kessel, thank you so much for joining us. I'm delighted to be with you then. So we got a lot to dig into. Let's start with the fact that next week, Canada,

Britain, France, Australia, and Belgium are expected to formally recognize a Palestinian statehood at a meeting on the sidelines of the UN General Assembly. I think people like myself don't take issue with the day of one day recognizing a Palestinian state, but to do so while Hamas is still in power, to do so while there is still a state of war between Israel and Hamas, and to do so before the rest of the hostages have been returned, to me seems putting the cart before the horse. Well, I couldn't agree with you more, Ben. I think this is a fateful steps that the government is doing.

I'm not sure why they're doing it. This has been, you know, trial ballooned out there for a little while now. I thought Minister Anand was trying to walk it back a little bit this week, but I agree with you entirely. This is the wrong thing at the wrong time. It really is, you know, if you heard the Prime Minister with his statement when he came out, he basically had an hour or so conversation with a bus, the Palestinian Authority, wherein a bus, you know, we should all remember that a bus is in the 19th year of his four-year mandate, promised that the Palestinian Authority is going disarm, they were going to revap their non-constitution, they were going to make sure that

a Hamas wouldn't be around, and they're going to hold elections. And the prime minister came out in his statement and said, Canada will recognize a Palestinian state and plans to, on the basis of these commitments. And what I see these as not preconditions. I see them as post-conditions. Yeah. Yeah, I agree. They have not preconditions. No, exactly. Well, and clearly, the fact that none of these things have happened and yet it looks like they're going full bore into it demonstrates that they are they are in fact post conditions get to it out we'll give you what you want we'll reward you for for the death and destruction and and one day holocaust that you perpetrated we're not going

to ask you to do the one thing that would have ended this war on day one which was the return of the hostages we're not going to hold you to that instead instead we're going to welcome you into the united nations in um as a as as a as a friend nation this is this to me is it's bananas Ben, you know, I agree entirely on this. I mean, it's really curious that, you know, when terrorists thank you for your support, that's not leadership or an ethical foreign policy, it's capitulation and appeasement. Yeah, yeah, yeah. This is Neville Chamberlain 2.0.

Let's move on to this UN-independent International Commission of Inquiry on the occupied Palestinian territory, including East Jerusalem and Israel, where this, I guess this is a, this is one of the, a wing of the United Nations that has concluded that Israel has committed genocide in Gaza. Now, this comes on the heat. I find the timing of this very curious because last week, we were being told that the greatest genocide researchers in the world had declared that Israel had a genocide, only to discover that with $25 and a smartphone, you you could become one of these scholars. So that attempt at labeling Israel, a genocidal nation, failed.

And right on the heels of that, we get this. I find the timing very curious, and I'm very curious to know who these people are, what their research was, what their methodology was. How often did they, you know, were they on the ground to make this conclusion? I suspect not. well you're right to a large degree this is the human rights council is the premier body of the UN that looks at human rights around the world now there are many criticisms of this body some people like it some have suggested it's really the inmates running the asylum when you

have people like Iran chairing a woman's group but But let's be clear from the start, the so-called UN inquiry has no credibility in my view. Now, its authors have a long record of feasibility towards Israel. One of them even questioned whether Israel should be in the UN at all. And they're now twisted the word genocide to describe Israel's fight against Kamas, you know, a terrorist organization prescribed here in Canada that's slaughtered seven Canadians on October 7th. And they still hold 48 hostages, as you mentioned. And Israel is defending its citizens, not destroying a people.

Calling that genocide isn't just false. It's obscene. Yeah. And it cheapens the real meaning of the term. Yeah. Well, and in sort of the most up-to-date information I have is that, you know, there is, in fact, an evacuation effort taking place by Israel to allow for an escape route from Gaza City for 48 hours.

The implication is that there will be some more heavy fighting there, urging civilians to move south as ground operations advance and fighting is expected to intensify. And yet you've got civilians who are hesitant to leave with hundreds of thousands remaining in the city, even though leaflets have been dropped and they've been warned. Like I, this is what's going to happen is predictable. You're going to have people dying.

The Hamas health industry through the magic of the arts, They're incredible magical properties. They're going to be able to tell us within a day down to the person, how many people died. And never mind the fact that this is a wing of Hamas, we, the Western press, will accept that number, whole hog without any criticism or any cynicism. And that will be thrown on to the total of the number of people that have been killed by the genocidal bloodthorce colonialists, known as the Israelis. Well, you know, there's the expression that for Israel, every death is a tragedy, and for Hamas, every death is a strategy. And this is exactly what's happening now. I mean, if there's one criticism I have of Israel, it's that they've raised the bar on the application of international humanitarian law to a point where I'm not sure Canada could meet it or any of the countries in our Western family.

We didn't meet it in Afghanistan. The Americans didn't meet it in Iraq. Rock. I mean, this is, this is, none of us met it in World War II. And so it's, forget Vietnam. We can't even get into Vietnam. But I wish, Mr. Kessel, I wish we had more time. I want to thank you so much for really giving us your perspective. You know, I, I can only do so much as the guy screaming into the microphone, but with your resume and experience in this world, it's, it's sage opinion indeed. And I thank you very much for giving us your time. You know, Ben, if Canada wants to be useful, it should defend law, standard of democracy, demand the release of 48 hostages, and make sure aid goes to people not to from us.

And thanks for having me on the show. I appreciate. I hope to talk to you again soon. All right. Coming up, does Canadian hockey have, I'll say does Canadian hockey still have a toxic culture problem. This show is sponsored by BetterHelp. Let's be honest, we've all shared our problems in some pretty funny places, the group chat, your barber, maybe even a stranger on a plane. And, hey, sometimes that helps.

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That's why I remember 9-88, Canada's suicide crisis helpline. It's good to know, just in case. Anyone can call or text for free confidential support from a train responder anytime. 988 Suicide Crisis Helpline is funded by the government in Canada. During the Volvo Fall Experience event, discover exceptional offers and thoughtful design that leaves plenty of room for autumn adventures. And see for yourself how Volvo's legendary safety

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Appreciate your time. Appreciate your ears. Appreciate your thoughts. Whenever we put something out there, we do not expect to get it right every time. We don't expect for everybody to believe that we are correct and how you respond to us

and the thoughts that you provide for us inform how we move forward. It's part of the discussion that we have. I'm certainly not somebody who is afraid of other people's opinions and I'm not afraid to be challenged and it's really it's how we make the show better. So thank you very much. All right. Let's now talk about hockey Canada. For years and years, if you just watch the games and if you just heard the stories that were on, you know, sports news, then these were, these are the people building our national identity through hockey and and hockey Canada, how kids discover hockey and are developing.

and ultimately become the stars that make us proud on the international stage. It's a byproduct of a culture that loves hockey. But if you pay attention to it from another angle, it could be building a side of our culture and our love of hockey that is, for lack of a better expression, it's not my favorite word in the world, but it's appropriate, toxic here to discuss a really in-depth look into hockey Canada. from the Walrus is Ariela Garmey's associate editor. And the article was,

what was left unsaid in the Hockey Canada trial? Testimony has focused on a single night in 2018, but the toxic culture has shaped it runs much deeper. Ariela, thank you so much for being here. Thank you so much for having me. And look, I've read this. I don't disagree with it. I would be lying if I said I had spent a lot of time thinking about this.

But here's a couple of things that I just, that popped to mind. this court case was gross and it was it it demonstrated that there's some behavior out there that is just not uh it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's to say the least but because this was uncovered by no means means this is the worst i'm sure there are people getting away with worse than this in that in that community uh and i wonder your thoughts I mean, absolutely. I think what's particularly what's so horrifying about this case is that if we're an isolated incident, that would be one thing, but it's so clear from having sat through the trial that this is symptomatic of this bigger culture. I mean, I talk in my article about the junior hockey Bible, and this is sort of a lexicon from the early aughts that describes words that these boys are taught how to use to describe women in various sexual encounters, see donkeys, swamp donkeys come to mind, and it's quite frankly vile. yeah it absolutely is and but i got to wonder we've had we've had enough it feels to me we should have had enough of these public explosions of of learning about this behavior the commensurate

revulsion by the the general public you would think that this would move the needle in terms of some level headed people on the inside saying guys what we've done here isn't working working anymore. We need a wholesale reinvention of what we are doing with these kids. And look, the fact is, a lot of these kids are going, and they are kids. They're coming, they're in the system

from long before they leave high school. A lot of them never, never go beyond high school. And so their only education is through hockey Canada. And yet that doesn't seem to have happened. A hundred percent. And something that I note in my article

is a lot of these kids even don't really totally finish high school, which is to say that their high school educations are truncated by all these tournaments, you know, and practices. And so they're really at a disadvantage, right? All the signals that they're being taught about sex and relationships are from hockey Canada and are from the blocker rooms. Yeah, I find it really interesting. You know, I'm not somebody who looks for the racial inequity boogeyman behind every door. But that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. And I always found it very interesting that as a society, we took great issue with the idea. that young black men were jumping from high school to the pros, to the point that they had

to change the rules and make sure that they spent at least one year in college. And we have never had that same conversation about teenagers, never finishing high school in hockey. And I think the biggest differentiator is race there. Yeah, absolutely. And I think also the flip side of that is we saw these kind of five nicely dressed young men sitting in court. And we tend to be a bit more sympathetic to that we don't really see the dark underside of that now is there is there room in this conversation to zoom out just a little bit and consider at least tangentially the role that like the larger ecosystem where look you got I'm just going to say it you can't have bad behavior in a situation like this unless there is unless there are women involved in that dynamic

You can't have the terrible behavior by the boorish hockey players without what, you know, is commonly referred to as the puck bunny. Is there room in this conversation for that conversation? Interesting. Yeah, I don't know. I think in this situation, EM, that's the complainant, has really paid the price of what transpired that night. I mean, she spoke about that on the stand.

She was really cross-examined for seven days. Obviously, that's part of the process. But she's also sort of had to live with this for seven years. And I think something we learned from watching the case is, I mean, these men are really good at finding other women, right? Like there was an incident in London just nights prior where a girl reported that she had kind of encountered similar guys and it kind of shoved them off. So I think a little bit what we saw transpire is these are boys who are armed only with the signals that hockey Canada taught them. And a young woman sort of stumbled into it unknowingly and is pretty much torn apart. Yeah, I mean, if they're, if they are being, I mean, look, one could argue that they are being

groomed, right? They're being turned into this. You don't wake up at 15, at 15, 14, 13, when you're showing signs of, of, of being a great hockey player. You just want to play hockey. That the sexuality gets informed, is informed later on. I mean, maybe even as early as 15. I don't know. But at first, I mean, I have to assume that when a kid laces up for the first time, they just want to be the best. hockey player because they love hockey. All this other stuff starts getting layered on. And at some point, that doesn't mean that every single kid who goes through hockey Canada turns into a potential sex predator. But you're not helping their prospects of becoming fully formed, responsible people who show respect to each and every person they encounter. And so where does the responsibility lie in your opinion?

because these are adults, but when they got into the hockey Canada machine, they were kids. Totally. And I mean, to your point, I mean, these boys, when their children, are brutally hazed. Like, I think in a lot of cases, they're really reenacting the sort of trauma and aggression, which they've endured. So I really am sympathetic to that, that they've really been raised in this locker room that I imagine is very hostile in a lot of ways traumatizing, not to use kind of an overused word. But I also think at a certain point, as you mentioned, you become an adult and you hope

that you could take responsibility for your own actions. I mean, Megan Savard, the lawyer for Carter Hart, said something really interesting once the verdict was announced. She said that it was really the Crown's fault that this trial had been brought forward, that her client specifically Carter Hart had been willing to settle and to undergo some sort of restorative justice program to speak to other athletes about having more responsible sex. So my hope was that even though there was a not guilty verdict, we can all sort of, any of one with common sense, can see what transpired was really vile. and I hope that we could still have those conversations.

The NHL's announced that these athletes will rejoin, right? They're allowed to resign come October 15th and to replay come December 1st. So my hope is that just because there's been a not guilty verdict doesn't mean they don't still see a need to have these conversations about having more responsible facts. Well, yeah, you know, like a lot of people's knee-jerk reaction with shame on the NHL, but I do think that this presents a real opportunity, right?

Like my hope is, like I never want to see anybody's life damaged forever, and I think that most people, most people in most situations are not beyond redemption and not beyond learning from their mistakes. And putting, putting this, this potential, you know, potential life in the NHL before them may come with some caveats. It may say, listen, before anybody's going to hire you, like, you're unhireable. We've done the polling data. Nobody in, in these 15 cities want you. If you are going to sign, you're going to have to do these other things first. And there may be an opportunity for for hockey canada to realize that they are they are churning out kids and young men who uh if this if the truth of how they behaved when nobody's watching came to light

none of them a lot of people in the n hl might not have jobs today and so therefore it might be they might have to then look back at everything they've done to lead these kids to a point where they're going to have to sing for their sup in a very real way absolutely and i mean something that really struck me kind of watching the trial was how much suffering these boys themselves too have endured. I know, for example, Brett Howden took the stand. He's currently an NHL player, and he broke down crying at one point. He was being cross-examined on what it was like to tell his wife, that he, his then-girlfriend, now wife, and his father that he had been in that room that night. And he starts breaking down, and no one kind of knew why he was crying,

and you can imagine there's just so much that he's kind of endured and is holding in. Well, Arellia, we're going to have to leave it there. But the article is what was left unsaid in the Hockey Canada trial at the walrus.com. Thank you for your time and a really thought-provoking conversation. Thank you so much for having me. The end. For four years, Noah and Sarah have been clawing out from beneath the Denver airport.

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