The Ben Mulroney Show - What is Donald Trump's endgame with Tariffs, and how should we fight back?

Episode Date: March 4, 2025

Guests and Topics: Guest: Adrienne Batra, Editor in chief- Toronto Sun Guest: Derek Burney, Former Canadian Ambassador to the United States (1989–1993). He led the Canadian delegation in concluding negotiations of the Canada-U.S. free-trade agreement If you enjoyed the podcast, tell a friend! For more of the Ben Mulroney Show, subscribe to the podcast! https://globalnews.ca/national/program/the-ben-mulroney-show Follow Ben on Twitter/X at https://x.com/BenMulroney Enjoy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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If you have any questions or concerns about your gambling or someone close to you, please contact Connix Ontario at 1-866-531-2600 to speak to an advisor free of charge. BenMGM operates pursuant to an operating agreement with iGaming Ontario. Welcome to the Ben Mulroney Show. Thank you so much for listening to us. In any way, whether it be on radio, on a streaming app, or as a podcast, we say thank you. Today is Tuesday. Today is Trump Tariff Tuesday. Despite all the work and the over a billion dollars poured into addressing the very problem

that Donald Trump said was the issue, he has gone ahead with his original plan of 25% tariffs on every good coming across the border from Canada into the United States, 10% tariffs on Canadian energy. And he said, you know, he was asked the question, is there any room for Canada to stop this tariff threat from coming into effect? On the tariffs, is there any room left for Canada and Mexico to make a deal before midnight?

And should we expect those Chinese tariffs, the extra 10 percent to take effect tomorrow? No room left for Mexico or for Canada. No, the tariffs, you know, they're all set. They go into effect. Mr. President, just to follow up on my colleague's question. And just so you understand, vast amounts of fentanyl have poured into our country from Mexico, and as you know, also from China, where it goes to Mexico and goes to Canada.

And China also had an additional 10. So it's 10 plus 10. And, and it comes in from Canada and it comes in from Mexico. And that's a very important thing to say. Yeah, it's it's not about the border. It's it's not. Because just recently on Truth Social, Donald Trump posted Canada doesn't allow American banks to do business in Canada, but their banks flood the American market. Oh, that seems fair to me, doesn't it? Well, sir, I checked Elon Musk's AI tool, Grok,

and asked it, how many American banks operate in Canada? The answer is 16, with $113 billion in assets. So it's not about that either. It's about one thing and one thing only. He wants every business that operates in Canada million in assets. So it's not about that either. It's about one thing and one thing only. He wants every business that operates in Canada to move to the states. He wants every car that Americans buy to be built in the United States. He wants aluminum.

He wants steel. He wants it all down there. And this is the tool he is trying to use to get himself there, to get that done. But even if this is the way to do that, not a single car that's built in Canada will be built in the United States during his administration. The time to move everything would take far longer than four years. So this is, this is asinine. He doesn't listen to us.

He doesn't listen to Justin Trudeau. Maybe he'll listen to the Dow Jones, which is telling him, the stock market is telling him, that they do not have faith in this action plan with a drop of over 1% already today. And the market's been open for 37 minutes. Justin Trudeau last night, on the eve of these tariffs, issued a very strong statement. I won't read the whole thing to you, and it does rehash what many politicians have said before. It is a very strong statement.

By me saying that, I am not suggesting that the actions of this government have been responsible and have they been dutiful in their responsibilities towards this country. I think this government has been derelict in its duties. I think the fact that we are still enduring a liberal leadership race with this on our plates is one of the most shameful things I've ever seen a government do, ever. But his Minister of Foreign Affairs, Milanis Jolie,

I will give her credit where credit is due. As I've said, I do not have a reflexive negative opinion of everything that the government does when they do something right, when they say something right, I will acknowledge it. And she in this moment said, I think the right thing. She said, we're ready to counter the tariffs. Let's be clear. If Trump is imposing tariffs, we're ready. We are ready with $155 billion worth of tariffs, and we're ready with the first tranche of tariffs, which is $30 billion, which is already known. Mr. Trump has said publicly just now 25% tariffs on Canada and Mexico, no quote, no room left for Mexico or Canada. They're all set. They go into effect tomorrow.

Is Canada just stuck bracing for impact at this point, Minister? So we are ready. And of course, I'll have a conversation with the Prime Minister when he lands, because he's coming from London. And I'm going into a cabinet room right now to talk with my colleagues about the Canada-U.S. relation, and of course the tariffs. Yeah, I think she came off as measured and confident. I think we need to hear that from our leaders right now. Doug Ford, a little more emotional. The Ontario Premier has been very emotional over the course of the past few months.

I think he views this as a betrayal by a family member. That's how it feels to me. But he's willing to do some things that I don't find surprising given the environment we're in. I'm just sad that we're here. He doesn't have power over tariffs. So he's got to use other tools. Let's listen to what he's prepared to do as the Premier of Ontario. I said number one, I don't start a tariff war, but we're going to win this tariff war right off the hop.

I've directed the LCBO, we're the largest purchaser of alcohol in the world to remove every bit of U.S. alcohol off the shelves. I know my good friend, the governor of Kentucky, he's losing his mind right now. I said, you better talk to your president. Mitch McConnell, senior senator from Kentucky, they are losing their mind. We purchased over a billion dollars of alcohol, 3600 products, 35 states. It is going to hit them. We would call them the kitchen table issues.

Then we are going to cancel Starlink right away. From Elon Musk. Not that $100 million makes a difference for him. But it is principle. And then we are going to cancel Starlink right away from Elon Musk. Not that a hundred million dollars makes a difference for him, but it's principle. Yeah, I mean, these are the things

he's willing to proceed with a scorched earth, Sherman's march to the sea kind of policy here. And that's how seriously our leaders are taking this. Minister of Immigration Mark Miller had some, I mean, it was a word salad. This is his perspective, let's listen to this. We can't replace an economy that is responsible for 80% of our trade overnight, and it's gonna hurt. My message to Canadians is that we have

a higher pain threshold than our partners to the south of us. We can continue to fight. We will have to bring the fight and it will hurt Americans as well. Not to mention, and it's important to reiterate, that 35 of those states, their primary trading partner is Canada. So it will hurt them. And we hope that logic will prevail. Yeah, I mean, that's fine. I don't really need to hear from Mark Miller too, too much. And when he says we have a higher pain threshold, I know that to be a fact because we have been living

under a painful government for nine years and we're still here. This government will soon have a new leader in Mark Carney. We are being told by anybody on his side, as well as many people in the media, that this is the guy. This is the guy who's going to go toe-to-toe with Donald Trump because, my goodness, his domain expertise when it comes to all things economic, he's top of the heap.

He's the high watermark. Why don't you listen to something he said in that pub. Oh, it was the pub. Let's go back to the scene of that crime where he explained how important Canada is to the United States as it relates to essential semiconductors. Biggest supplier of fertilizer, biggest supplier of aluminum, biggest supplier of semiconductors. We supply almost all their semiconductors that hold. You know everybody in the White House is a tech

bro except for Trump. They all need semiconductors. They all come from Canada. Maybe they won't. Maybe one day they won't show up. What the hell is this guy talking about? We provide less than 1% of semiconductors to the United States. Morocco sells more semiconductors to the United States than we do. This is the guy whose brand is based on I say what I mean and I mean what I say. I'm deliberate in all of my words and actions. Unlike the guy before

me who is all about performance, he was all about the sizzle, I am the steak. And when he opens his mouth and says stuff like this, what are we getting for our money here? What do you bring into the table, sir? You overinflate your importance in matters where you had very little. You understate your role in the damage that's been caused in the last nine years. And when you do speak on matters, you make things up. Not only is that wrong, instinctively most Canadians feel that it's wrong. There's no way we are a leader in semiconductors. I've never heard that in my life. Who is giving you your information? You're the guy who's going to go toe-to-toe

with Donald Trump? I would love to hear that meeting. You're both talking with your own facts. Neither of you tether to reality. This is the good, if this is after this robust national debate, this is the guy who comes out on top. God help us all. And not only does he say dumb stuff like this, but he doesn't feel that it is required to answer for the dumb stuff. No accountability, no willingness to talk to the press. We're going to hold his feet to the fire. God help us all. TD Direct Investing offers live support. So whether you're a newbie or a seasoned pro, you can make your investing steps count. And if you're like me and think a TFSA stands for

total fund savings adventure, maybe reach out to TD Direct Investing. adventure, maybe reach out to TD Direct Investing. Welcome back to the show. It's all about Donald Trump and his tariffs today and the impact that we are as a country are going to feel because of this unilaterally aggressive move that I cannot make hair nor hide of because look, Demetri Pseudis, formerly of the Conservative Party said US Commerce Secretary Lutnick said that tariffs on Canada and Mexico will be lifted if they halt fentanyl flow into the US. I mean okay sure how are we gonna

like all of it all of it this doesn't make any sense to me the Donald Trump posted on on truth social that now it's about American banks that aren't allowed in Canada, even though there's 16 of them operating in Canada. Okay, so it's not about those things. To talk about this and more, Adrienne Batra, editor-in-chief of the Toronto Sun, is joining us. Adrienne, thank you so much for making time out of your day. It's great to be with you, Ben. Thank you. So if it's not about fentanyl and if it's not about banks, what's this about? We've all been trying to figure that out. Look, we heard President Trump throughout the entire campaign, which he won overwhelmingly,

big mandate, you know, tariffs is something that he was, he was going to do, but no one in Canada thought that that iron would be directed at us because we are going to have to renegotiate the USMCA within a year anyway. All of these trade related issues could be dealt with and addressed then. I mean, is it that President Trump has become an expansionist? You know all the jokes about the 51st state, he wasn't clearly joking about that. It's buying Greenland, all these sorts of things. It's unclear that it started out as a fentanyl issue and then morphed to this massive trade

deficit, which doesn't exist. Now we can only assume that this is his desire to expand the US footprint. It's so unclear and it's so frustrating, Ben, that it's hard to pinpoint. And that is the frustrating thing. I don't think anybody in this country wants to have a bad relationship with the United States. And if they are good faith operators

and tell us that there is an issue on X, Y or Z, Canadians in good faith will try their best to address it. But it's the moving of a goalpost. It's trying to build a relationship on shifting sands that I think is so frustrating to so many. The one thing that can't change here, Adrian, is how the market is reacting. The market's gonna do what it's gonna do.

And right now the market is not liking this to the tune of a sell-off of just over 700 points at this point on the Dow Jones. They've been, it's been open for less than an hour. So that is not a good look. And Donald Trump does, does pay attention to what the Dow Jones is doing. That's right. You know, if we could look at the market, Ben, as one of Donald Trump's sort of KPIs, he is going to look at that. He is going to see that his secretary of commerce, Howard Lutnick is looking at that. His Secretary of the Treasury Scott Bessent is looking at that.

Those are indicators to Trump that either this is going to be a short-term thing, you know they're reacting negatively now, but once this sort of makes its way through the system, and by the way we still don't know how this is even going to be implemented. But once these tariffs make their way through the system, does the market bounce back? Is the consumer confidence coming back? All of these things right now in this moment are not good. And for Trump to look at that, I would hope, we would hope he sees that and says, okay, maybe this is, it's an overreaction, but it's unclear because maybe he just thinks this needs to be course corrected anyway.

But you know, we've, we've got all of this economic uncertainty at a time when there was already economic uncertainty in our country through nine years of bad policy. And now this is just compounding. Yes, and the fact that we could have had at this point, we could have had political certainty. Had Justin Trudeau, a few months ago, when he stood in front of the microphones and said he was stepping down, had he called an election then instead of forcing the entire country to sit through his party's internal debating about picking a new leader. Instead of doing that to us,

we could have had a national general election and we could be sitting here today in a completely different situation. We would have a federal government that has a strong mandate to negotiate with the United States. And let's not forget, they parodied parliament. They shut down the opportunity for Canada's house, for the voice of Canadians to

be heard at a time when we could argue this is an existential crisis. And so for the vanity and the ego of one political party, one person, we are in this position. And look, it's all important that we are looking internally now, we're looking at shutting down, tearing down our own inter-provincial trade barriers, we're looking at manufacturing back here. It's all good and well that we're doing that now as a country, and I think that's important.

We should have been doing this for the last 20 years, Ben. But just, let's not forget how we have made ourselves as a nation so vulnerable to issues such as this, not the least of which, not shipping our LNG, not opening up pipelines, not allowing East-West pipelines, our natural resources. These are self-inflicted wounds that we are now put in a position where we are beholden to the winds and the changing of the mind of a president.

These are long-term economic things that Canada should have been doing, but here we are now. So now Trudeau's announcing the retaliatory tariffs, which everybody supports, and I understand that. But let's not forget how we found ourselves in such a vulnerable position in the first place. Well, I find it really interesting because the liberal government and the liberal party is trying to reframe itself as the agent of change, despite the fact that it would be a change from an environment that they single-handedly created.

Actually, not single-handedly, they did so with the help of the NDP. And the guy it looks who's gonna be taking over from him is Mark Carney, who I have not seen this level of foot and mouth disease from a politician in a very long time, just yesterday calling us essentially the pillars of semiconductors that couldn't be farther from the truth. I've heard now journalists like Bob Fife and others who've expressed great dissatisfaction

with the level of accountability of this man who will ultimately become our Prime Minister. You're a journalist. You've been working in this arena for a very long time. Is this something new, a guy who's trying to accede to the highest office in the land, who seemingly has insulated himself from any accountability? It's the most extraordinary thing I've seen, particularly because of what's at stake here. This is someone who's never run for political office before, and not that there's anything wrong with that, but now he is going to be crowned as our Prime Minister automatically.

Forget leader of the Liberal Party. He's going to be Prime Minister as of Sunday. And it is incredible that to this day, in spite of all the attempts from journalists from your newsroom, our newsroom, at the Toronto Sun, the Globe and Mail, we're all trying to get answers, but his team, his political team, has probably recognized that the more he talks, clearly he has a problem. He is not particularly familiar with the truth or is prone to hyperbole on so many things. We saw Prime Minister Harper even saying that, how is this guy taking credit for the economic adjustments that the government of Canada made way back in the, in the, when Harper was prime minister. But so, so Carney has a problem with exaggeration and taking credit for things to make himself sound good. So his team has clearly said, okay, we can't let him out there for too long, one or two questions, and then we shut it down.

And, and then, yeah, this is going to be the most significant move in the coming days and weeks as we face this tariff issue, we face economic challenges, massive economic challenges here, we still have problems with inflation, we still have a housing crisis. And he's barely answered anything. It's extraordinary to me, Ben. And Canadians are pissed off right now about what's happening coming from south of the border. How are we not as pissed off about what's happening inside our own borders with all of this?

And he's being touted as the guy who's going to go toe to toe with Donald Trump. But neither of them seem to have a grasp on, you know, the actual facts on the ground. One says fentanyl is flowing in. That's not really true. One says that we are, you know, we are, you know, at the top of the industry when it comes to semiconductors. That's not really true. One says that we are, you know, we are, you know, at the top of the industry when it comes to semiconductors.

That's not true. I mean, the two of these guys together, it would just be, it would be chaos on chaos. And that's what's scary. And Canadians should recognize that. Look, I mean, as much as he likes to say I'm an outsider, but Mr. Kearney has been an advisor to Justin Trudeau for a number of years now.

The policies, to use a phrase, because it's carbon, it's our carbon copy of what we've had for the last nine years. So we should make no illusions about that. Even though they're trying to, him and Krista Freeland are saying, oh, well, we need to do better on housing, we need to do better on inflation.

Adrian, I don't want to interrupt, but we're going to take a quick break. But you're going to stick around because we've got Justin Trudeau is slated to speak to the nation about this tariff threat. If he's not, if he's not on time, which is likely, I'd love to chat with you a little bit more. So don't go anywhere coming up. Like I said, Justin Trudeau slated to speak and we're going to cover that live next on the Ben Mulroney show. Welcome back to the Ben Mulroney show and we're talking Trump tariffs pretty much all day. It is dominating every conversation. It is affecting every industry and so that's that's the topic du jour. But it's not about fentanyl and it's not about the border and I've been racking

my brain wondering you know what is this about? We've addressed the border. And I've been racking my brain wondering, what is this about? We've addressed the border. We pumped over a billion dollars into beefing it up. We've listened to what the border czar wants, what the administration wants. And by and large, it seems like if we haven't given it to them yet, we have a plan to give it to them.

And yet still 25% tariffs came into effect. So it's not about fentanyl. What's it about? Well, Donald Trump on Truth Social today said, if companies move to the United States, there are no tariffs. This is what he wants. He wants entire industries from Canada and Mexico to roll up the carpet wherever they are and set up shop in the States. That's what he wants. Now, just think about that for a second.

Does he really think that every auto plant and every auto part manufacturer that exists in Canada, Mexico are just going to up and move? Is that what he thinks? And okay, is this how he thinks he's going to get it? Flavio Volpe who knows more about the automotive industry than than most people has said that if these tariffs stick around the automotive industry won't move it'll just shut down it will just close it'll be too expensive to

make a car and it won't be in the financial interest of these companies to do anything until this gets sorted out. Oh, let's welcome Adrienne Batra back to the show. Adrienne, sorry, I went on a little bit of a of a tirade there, but welcome back. We're waiting for the Prime Minister to speak and what do you think we're going to hear from him? Well, we're going to hear much of a repeat of what we heard about 30 days ago when we got the pause. Well, $155 billion on goods that are coming from the United States. We will hear hopefully some sort of other long-term plan. But one of the other things that we need to hear from him today, Ben, is that

they are not going to increase the carbon tax on April 1st. Because to what you were saying just before I joined you again, with respect to the desire of President Trump to bring manufacturing back to the United States to drop it, like he's America first. And I understand that companies are responding to that Honda from Mexico, for example, has said we will open up our plants back in, in, in the U S I mean, he's bringing in chips manufacturing. So, so he's seen what he wants is a fundamental change to how the U S economy is, um, is, is driven. And other countries need to pay attention to that.

Yeah. Canada at the world economic forum, right after he was sworn in, President Trump spoke at the WEF and he's obviously no fan of large, these global entities, but he went there with a message and he's like, it's not business as usual anymore. The United States is going to cut red tape. We are going to open up our markets. We are going to provide workers. We are going to provide a low tax environment. We are going to create a place that the United States is the number one place in the world you want to do business. And a lot of people can say, oh, that's bluster and that's his whole thing, but he genuinely means that. And if you see the moves in the executive orders

he's made in the last month between unleashing American energy, opening up their environmental regulations, shutting down a lot of the red tape. He is really trying to reshape the American economy and Canada needs to pay attention to that. We haven't paid attention to that. Adrian, when Pierre Poliev released his mini-doc on Twitter about the productivity gap between Canada and the United States and how it started in 2015, I thought to myself, and this was prior to these tariffs,

even being a remote possibility, I thought, you know what? The best thing that could happen for Pierre Poliev would be Trump getting elected, because the argument to elect a conservative government here is if you want that gap to continue to grow, vote for anyone but Pierre Poliev. He will at least have, he will unleash a Canadian version of what Donald Trump sees for his country in terms of cutting red tape and lower taxes and unleashing a wave of entrepreneurial

ship, the likes of which we haven't seen in a couple of generations. And yet, through, I don't know, I don't know what they've done. I don't know how they've positioned it. But somehow the liberals have convinced a swath of people to give them a second look. I just, I don't get how we've gotten here. It's extraordinary. But you know, but we've said for some time, the opportunity for the liberals is going to be to run against Donald Trump. Well, Donald Trump has just made it really easy for them.

Look, I hope that Canadians don't go down that road again because we could be in an election I hope that Canadians don't go down that road again, because we could be in an election as soon as next week potentially, it's possible. But I really hope that Canadians recognize that, and maybe they don't think about it in such a nuanced fashion, but policies we've had for nearly the last decade have resulted in many of the adverse economic impacts that we're having today.

Maybe they don't make the connection, but the challenge, Ben, is that, you know, Pierre-Paul Liev has come out with some really thoughtful policies, really good ideas on the housing crisis. But if you step back and look at every aspect of public policy in this country for the last near decade, everything from immigration to the economy to housing to productivity, the Trudeau Liberals have failed us. Yeah. And we're not in good shape. And we again remain, I think the most frustrating part is just a few weeks ago, Japan was in

the global office with President Trump signing a massive multi-billion dollar LNG project. That could have been us. Yeah, no, instead, the Europeans came. The Europeans came. Yeah. And monitor LNG. That could have been us. Our prime minister has been off in Europe and doing, you know, acting as prime minister early as he can until until he runs out the clock. I think it would be quite, symbolically, it would be quite telling if one of his final addresses to the nation would be him essentially signing the death knell of the carbon tax by saying, you know,

it would be fitting, it would be, in my estimation, poetic. But I think you're right. I think he really has to do it. Yeah, I believe he has to do it. He absolutely has to do it. And one thing it would do is certainly as a buttress the liberals chances in what will be an upcoming election.

But that said, I don't know if he will, I mean, this is a guy that really married himself to this policy. And, but speaking of that said, I don't know if he will. I mean, this is a guy that really married himself to this policy. And but speaking of that policy, there are other pieces of legislation and other policies. Oh, that the trim people are saying, hang on a second here. But again, we're we're Canada first now to those going to come up and look pretty darn good today. In light of all of this,

which is an extraordinary turn of events. But again, let's not forget how we managed to find ourselves in part in this financial turmoil, economic turmoil is because of their policies. Yeah, I'm, I'll be looking forward to hearing what the prime minister has to say. Equally, I'd like to hear what the person I believe will be the next prime minister, Pierre Poliev, to hear what his reaction is. I haven't seen an opposition leader put as many policy initiatives in the window as Pierre has prior to an election campaign.

That to me is almost counterintuitive. It's typically, you know, you typically wait until the election campaign starts and if you're the leader, you certainly don't give your opponents anything to punch at. But I, you know, I very much like the fact that he's confident enough that he's willing to put that stuff out there, even though, you know, the liberals are copying a great many of them. Well, absolutely, because the liberals recognize, you know, the liberals' ideas of their policies, they know they all sound good and people get excited about them. You know, socialism is great over everything for free is sounds great.

But in theory, but in practice, it doesn't work out so well. And that's a result. And, and, and we saw consequences of that in the United States with four years of Biden, Harris was rejected. We're seeing that for almost a decade of the liberals buttressed by the NDP. Eventually the bill comes due. But with respect to Poliev, what's interesting about how the policies he's coming out with and the positions he's coming out with, it's very understandable. He's put out these long form policy videos, as you just mentioned, on housing, for example.

It's understandable. It explains how we got here, what we need to do to address it. It's really quite an extraordinary thing. Adrian Batra, we're going to have to leave it there. Editor-in-Chief of the Toronto Sun, thank you so much for taking time to join us on the Ben Mulroney Show. It was my pleasure. Thank you.

Welcome back to the Ben Mulroney show and we are dealing with Donald Trump all day. How do you deal with a bad faith operator? At least that's my editorial question. I don't believe that he is being honest with us in terms of what he wants. I thought we addressed the issues at the border. Turns out, I what he wants. We I thought he we addressed the issues at the border. Turns out I think he wants every business that exists in Canada and Mexico to close up

shop and open in the United States. I'm joined now by someone who probably was thought of long and hard about questions just like that. Derek Burney, the former Canadian ambassador to the United States, and he led the Canadian delegation in concluding negotiations of the Canada-US free trade agreement. Mr. Bernie, thank you so much for joining us on the Ben Mulroney Show. Oh, you're most welcome, Ben. So you wrote a piece in the National Post that says,

10 tips for dealing with Donald Trump. I guess in order to deal with someone, you got to know what they want and you got to know how they operate. So how do you think we deal with this man? Because I thought we were dealing with them in good faith. Yeah, that was a momentary feeling, right? Well, we've had a good run as long as it's lasted, but unfortunately it looks like Mr. Trump is retreating to a law of the jungle rule on trade. Might is right.

No justification whatsoever for his actions. It's very sad. It's very sad for Canada-U.S. trades, very sad for Canada-U.S. relations. You know, in a very more minor vein, I was reminded of what your father said at a time when Ronald Reagan's administration imposed a 35% tariff on our cedar shakes and shingles for roofing in the midst of the free trade negotiations. And your father said to the parliament, you know, there are days when the Americans make it very difficult to have good relations with them.

Well, that's where we are. You know, my suggestions were pretty clear. We have to contain our emotions and not react to some of the obviously off the rail comments the president makes, but we have to conduct a war of fact rather than a war of emotion. I hope we will come a little more clear with our retaliation measures. I mean, we announced essentially what we announced a month ago. I think we need to be more strategic,

both politically and economically, in addition to the kind of items that we target, there's no question about that we have to react. I would suggest, for instance, that in a political context, we should target the 17 states for whom Canada is the largest export market. I would also suggest that we look at the states in which the Senate has competitive contests in 2026. And we should target those specifically because these actions are not just going to hurt Canadians, they're going to hurt Americans. Everybody knows that. That's basic economics. And Donald Trump desperately wants to hold the House and the Senate. And so if we can put pressure on those key races, those are pain points and leverage that we could use.

That's a very good point. Ambassador Bernie, is there a role for the courts in this new relationship? Well, I assume that we've recruited top-flight US trade lawyers in order to litigate this because it's a total violation of the USMCA and the WTO. And I'm tempted to agree with you that there may be scope in the US courts. I mean, the US courts are reacting to some of the things he's doing domestically in a principled manner, and I think there's scope for them to do the same. But I would, you know, I think we have to stress that this is a blatant violation of

the USMCA, an agreement that he signed himself 18 months ago or whatever it was. No, it was longer than that. That has to be the first point of attack because when your partner violates an agreement that they signed, you don't have much recourse other than to do that. But Ambassador, therein lies the rub as I see it. You said that we have to conduct ourselves, it's a battle of facts, not emotions. But when our partner is refusing to acknowledge the facts, then that's a problem. When he refused to acknowledge that he himself

renegotiated NAFTA, and then he turns around and says it's the worst deal that's ever been cooked up and whoever signed it's an idiot. I mean, I don't know how you reason with that when he says that fentanyl is pouring over the border, when it is in fact not. I don't know how we engage facts in an arena where facts to a large extent are meaningless.

Well, that's why I think we have to push the political pedal where they're vulnerable. I mean, the Americans are going to see the economic consequences very quickly, and that's going to impact on their economy. I mean, some are predicting that they may go into recession if he goes full flight with this terror war. And that's a possibility. I like what Premier Ford is doing. I mean, I think he's being both bold and assertive when he says, okay, you do this to us,

you damage our economy in this way, I'm gonna cut off electricity to Michigan, Minnesota, and New York. I'm also gonna cut off nickel. 50% of America's nickel imports come from Canada. That is what Americans need to hear. We're not going to convince, Ben, we're not going to convince Donald Trump. No.

He's in his own world on many things, Ukraine being another one. Yeah. But Ambassador, what about, I mean, he's not going to listen to us, but will he listen to the Dow Jones? Yes, I think the market reaction tumbled yesterday when he made the announcement. I don't know what it's going to do. Oh, it's it's not it's not good. It's in the red.

Well, yeah, well, you know, he will. Well, I don't know whether he pays attention to anything other than his own speeches, but he will, his administration can't ignore market instability, especially if the economy and the economic numbers in the US start to go down. And don't forget, this is just the first phase in April, he's going to hit the European Union. We need some, we need some friends and allies, genuine allies in this tussle, and I'm hoping we can count on the European Union to support us with whatever we do. Well, yeah, we could try. We could kick that can because we didn't exactly get the support we wanted out of the UK and Keir Starmer, who is apparently kissing the ring in Washington to the point that he wanted nothing to do with Canada's precarious position with Washington. Well, everybody's afraid of the United States because they've been intimidated by the current administration.

I understand that. That's power politics at its worst. But we have to find ways around it. We have to be strategic. When I say we have to conduct a war of facts, as I said, I'm not trying to impress Donald Trump with facts. He ignores facts every statement he makes. But we can get support from the American people.

I have to believe that. Because they have no reason to be negative, even if we did win the hockey tournament. So I think we have to rely on waking American business executives in particular. I also am intrigued. I read this this morning that there may be a possibility of a carve out on autos for Mexico and Canada, given that the USMCA has very explicit terms in it which govern the trade in autos. If that were true, that would take a lot of the edge off the blunt 25% across the board tariff they're imposing.

That would be something we should be trying to negotiate if it isn't a fact. When Donald Trump posts on his Truth Social, if companies move to the United States, there are no tariffs. When you hear that, is that what he's really looking for? Is he looking for every business in Canada to close up shop here and move down there? Ben, you can't separate bluster from truth, okay? I mean it's impossible. I mean, I don't think he even knows what he's talking about, that kind of thing. But to think that these companies are going to move their operations from Canada into the United States because of this, I think it's about as unrealist. You know, one of the only American executives who's spoken about this and criticized the administration

for contemplating tariffs is the CEO of Ford. Well, all of the auto company executives know this to be a fact. They're not gonna move operations into the United States because of a tariff. They're gonna look to move operations into the United States because of a tariff. They're going to look for exemptions. And as I say, the USMCA provides very precise rules of origin on where parts have to be made and how much has to be made in North America.

And Ambassador Burney, we're going to have to leave it there, but I want to thank you so much for your time today. I really appreciate it. Daniel Blanchard is no ordinary thief. His heists are ingenious. His escapes defy belief. And when he sees the dazzling diamond CC Star, he'll risk everything to steal it. His exploits set off an intercontinental manhunt.

But how long can CC Star stay lucky for Daniel? I'm Seren Jones and this is a most audacious heist. Listen on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music or wherever you get your podcasts.