The Ben Mulroney Show - What someone who helped negotiate NAFTA thinks of tension with The U.S.

Episode Date: January 31, 2025

Guests and Topics: Guest: Derek Burney, Former Canadian Ambassador to the United States (1989–1993). He led the Canadian delegation in concluding negotiations of the Canada-U.S. free-trade agreement Guest: David Clement, North American affairs manager at the Consumer Choice Center Guest: Ravi Kahlon, British Columbia’s Housing and Municipal Affairs Minister, plus head of the committee, tasked with coordinating a “whole of government” tariff response If you enjoyed the podcast, tell a friend! For more of the Ben Mulroney Show, subscribe to the podcast! https://globalnews.ca/national/program/the-ben-mulroney-show Follow Ben on Twitter/X at https://x.com/BenMulroney Enjoy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Conditions apply. Offer ends January 31st, 2025. Visit td.com slash DI Offer to learn more. We are living in a time where Canada-US relations are at a low point, to say the least. Wasn't always the case. And so we're gonna turn back the clock with somebody who remembers a time and who helped shape a time

where Canada-US relations were in a golden age. Please welcome to the Ben Mulroney Show, Derek Burney, former Canadian ambassador to the United States from 1989 to 1993. He led the Canadian delegation in concluding negotiations for the Canada-U.S. Free Trade Agreement, and he was a trusted advisor and friend to the late, the great,

the wonderful dad, Brian Mulroney. Mr. Bernie, welcome to the show. Thank you very much, Ben. Good to be with you. I want to turn your ear to a conversation I just had on the show with Warren Kinsella. And here was his assessment of what's going on right now with Donald Trump. But just like I am so fed up of hearing about his BS about fentanyl and the border. He said those things as an excuse to get himself out of the terms of the trade agreement he signed himself with us, the USMCA. He could not get himself out of the terms of that agreement

without concocting so-called national emergencies, which is fentanyl and illegal aliens. And all of us know, anybody with a brain knows, that fentanyl and illegal aliens overwhelmingly come from the South into the United States, not from the North. So it's all bogus. So what do you think, Mr. Ambassador?

Well, I agree with Warren entirely. I mean, it's absurd to compare the problems on the northern border, which there are some, with those on the southern border. I mean, given how Trump is reacting to the southern border, sending troops in and the whole bunch, it's absolutely absurd to make the comparison. His threat of tariffs against Canada are unsubstantiated, completely unsubstantiated, unwarranted, and probably illegal. As Warren said, Trump signed an agreement that was passed by Congress and our Parliament,

and this action would violate the basic terms of that agreement, as well as any other international trade agreement that I can think of. It's absolutely absurd. – Mr. Bernie, my dad used to say that the most important relationship he had as prime minister was with his caucus, and the second most important relationship was with the president of the United States. The president wasn't always going to agree with you. He wasn't always going to do what you wanted, but he was always going to take his call and he was always going to listen to him. We are certainly not living in that time right now. As somebody who's been in the room as somebody who's been integral to the negotiations how talk to me about how things have gone since donald trump got elected how is our prime minister

how has our government acquitted itself well we've become irrelevant in washington that's the sad truth you know your dad once said when um the Reagan administration slapped a 35% tariff on our shapes and shingles, roofing basically, in the midst of the free trade negotiations. And your father said, there are days like this when it makes countries like, it makes it difficult for countries like Canada to have good relations with the United States. And yet he never stopped working on that. We haven't worked on it. We haven't worked on it conscientiously. We had an almost, you know, absent relationship under Biden, understandably. But we've done nothing to resurrect a relationship with this new administration, but I can see.

And one of the saddest things for me, Ben, is the lack of comment by any American politician in Congress or any American senior businessman who stands to be victimized by this. You know, the Americans don't buy our oil or our uranium or our lumber because of the color of our eyes. They're not doing it as a favor to Canada. They're doing it because they need it. They need our oil. They need our uranium. They need our lumber.

Imagine trying to reconstruct California and you don't have enough lumber to help the housing industry, which is going to need it. They don't have enough. Trump says absurdly that they can do it all on their own. Well, they can't. For one thing, their refineries need our crude oil because they don't have any. You know, the tariffs have not yet come into place. We've been told they're coming tomorrow, but they're not yet enacted. So there are people holding out hope for an 11th hour reprieve. Now,

you're no stranger in the NAFTA negotiations, or it might have been the original free trade agreement, that to working down to the last second. What advice would you give whoever is talking, because I don't know who's talking for Canada in Washington right now, what advice would you give to them that if there is a sliver of hope, to get the ball over the gold line and save us from these tariffs?

Well, you're right. This is a threat and this is a threat from a dealmaker who's obviously looking for some kind of a deal. We have to figure out what that is. Our strongest voice in my mind is our ambassador in Washington. She's a pro on trade policy and I'm sure she's got good US legal advice, giving the basis for a challenge, which is what would be the first step we should take. We should also be ready to retaliate. There's no question about it. When you're dealing with a

bully, that's the only way you can respond. We have to respond in a similar manner with tariffs of our own. That will affect American consumers and producers alike. It will destroy any hope Mr. Trump has of reducing inflation. It will increase inflation. Every economist in the world knows that. That's why these threats, I hope it is a threat and nothing more, but you can't bank on that. He's material. Nobody can predict what he's going to say, not even his own staff. Let's talk about the automotive sector for a moment. I heard somebody on the radio yesterday, an expert in the automotive industry, say that if these tariffs come into effect, because

the part the the supply chain is so integrated that parts to make cars before they become cars have to cross the border as many as nine times. And because of that, the cost of a car will go up as close as far as $10,000. And he asserted that something like this, something this onerous would cause the entire system to collapse and we would stop producing cars on both sides of the border within a week. What do you think of something like that? Well, I don't think it would go that badly, but it won't go well for sure. And the basic point is right. I mean, these industries have been totally integrated for many decades. And to try to unwind that is, you know, just,

just impractical as well as impossible. I have to think that, you know, the governors in states like Michigan and other states, you know, Canada is the dominant trade partner for 35 of the U.S. states. Where are those governors? Why aren't they saying something? That's what appalls me. I mean, we need friends in the U.S. I even think the government should recycle the Tom Brokaw interview during the Vancouver Olympics so the American public can wake up to the reality of their relationship with Canada. It's being neglected. The one valid point, Ben, I would make on behalf of Trump is his criticism of our defense spending, which is pathetic by any measure. You know,

your dad was the last prime minister to meet the 2% NATO commitment. It hasn't been met since by Canada. And that's a disgrace, not only to our military, but to the country. You know, in every conversation I have, Mr. Bernie, none of this makes any sense. We don't understand 25% tariffs on Canada,

but 10% on China. So I keep going back to personality. And as much as he projects strength, he's a very thin skinned man. And you said before that this government has not maintained a healthy relationship with the Trump administration. But I'd go even farther to say

they've deliberately antagonized him. And I've got to wonder whether the fact that he just doesn't like our government is one of the reasons he may be doing this. Well, certainly the current government is the direct opposite of him on many fronts on the environment on woke policies, DEI and all of that jazz. I mean, they are the obvious alternative to that. But you know, if he's a thinking person at all, he should

recognize that there's an election pending. And with his action, he's going to do more for the existing government than he's going to do for the opposition. That's what his advisors should know about. If he wants something in Canada in similar ways to the government he's running, then he should look to an alternative up north. Well, I've been speaking, I've been in conversation with Derek Burney, the former Canadian ambassador to the U.S. He also led the Canadian delegation to conclude the negotiations of the Canada-U.S. free trade agreement. Sir, on the eve of these tariffs, there is no voice I wanted to speak with more, and I've got to say on a personal note, speaking to you,

makes me feel closer to my dad. So thank you very much, sir. Thank you, Ben. It's privilege for me. Well, Donald Trump, as we all know, has been moving with lightning fast speed to enact his agenda and to promote his vision for America. And on day one, Trump signed an executive order withdrawing the United States from the World Health Organization. He pointed to the organization's mishandling of the COVID-19 pandemic. And so not only did he do that, but he doubled down ordering

the US Centers for Disease Control to stop working with the WHO altogether. You may agree with Donald Trump on a number of things. You may disagree with him completely. But our next guest suggests that Canada should follow Donald Trump's lead and withdraw from the World Health Organization. He wrote as much in a piece in the National Post. So let's welcome to the show, David Clement, North American Affairs Manager at the Consumer Choice Center. David, thank you for being here. Thank you very much, Ben. Okay, so make your case to the audience of the Ben Mulroney Show as to why Canada should withdraw from the World Health Organization.

So I think first off, it's important to note, we all, or most of us at least, have an aversion to Trump right now, especially in the context of tariffs. But it's important to remember that a broken clock is right twice a day. And on this one, he is right. The World Health Organization completely bungled the response to COVID-19. And we all know the consequences of that. I mean, in the early stages, they tweeted that there was no clear evidence of human-to-human

transmission. That was false. They knew it was false. They had their technical lead for COVID on the same day that they tweeted it, giving a presentation in Geneva saying the exact opposite. It was later reported by the Associated Press that they were trying to provide balance to appease the Chinese Communist Party, whom at that point had already known that there was human to human transition. They flip-flopped on the efficacy of masks, travel restrictions, you name it. And that really came to a head in my view, their uncomfortable relationship with China,

when Canadian epidemiologist Bruce Alward, who was advisor to the director general, was in a very prominent interview and wouldn't answer any questions in regards to Taiwan. Oh yeah, it was uncomfortable. It was uncomfortable to watch. But David, let me ask you this. Let's play out the hypothetical. Let's say Canada were to abandon our relationship

with the World Health Organization. What practical implications would there be for our country by doing that? What changes on the ground would we experience? I mean, we would save $200 million because that's what we give to the WHO. Just for listeners' perspective, that's what the WHO spends on travel. Okay. We're talking about spending and bloat and whatnot. for listeners perspective, that's what the WHO spends on travel. We're talking about spending in bloat and whatnot. So, I mean, we have a financial problem here

in terms of our government finances and 200 million is not a big chunk of change when you have a $62 billion deficit, but it is certainly a start. But what I really think it would offer us is the opportunity to have a different public health structure that isn't tied to authoritarian regimes, doesn't pump out pseudoscience on a variety of different issues, that's almost like a NATO for health, where we have peer

countries collaborate to tackle the major global health problems you have that doesn't have this long history of nefarious actions. And it's important to note here that it's not just limited to the COVID-19 pandemic, the Ebola outbreak in West Africa in 2004, the WHO was heavily criticized from organizations like Doctors Without Borders for being way too slow, that they delayed their response, they delayed calling it an emergency, that contributed to the spread of the disease. And it gets worse when you fast forward to the 2018-2020 Ebola outbreak in that same region where WHO aid workers were implicated, 21 of them,

staff members, were implicated in sexual exploitation, abuse, and even rape. So their own staff members in that outbreak were doing some of the most disgusting things humans can do to other humans. So David, you're suggesting we pull out and other like-minded democracies and freedom-loving countries ban together to form sort of a competitor, a rival, if you will, to the WHO. Yes, I think that's the best path forward.

And I think it's the best path forward for a process that isn't it doesn't fall victim to the WHO's existing and nefarious ties with countries who just simply are not our allies and in many instances are on the other side of the aisle and our enemies. And you know you really lay it out very well in your article where you point out that the number two in charge, that Canadian epidemiologist, Aylward, said that were he to fall victim to the coronavirus, he would want to get treated in China.

Yeah, which is hilarious. Because anyone who can reflect, I mean, most people don't want to reflect on that period of time because it was particularly awful. But their response to COVID was rather draconian. I mean, I remember seeing videos of them welding doors shut to keep people in their homes. to keep people in their homes. It's an authoritarian regime and they behaved in an authoritarian way. I'm not really confident that that's something we want our senior health officials trying to copy. And you know, nothing would prevent us

that if they did do or say something that was of value to us as a nation or us as a member of another Democrat more more democratic version of the WHO, we could always just take that advice. Nothing, nothing prevents us from listening to them from the outside. Yes, exactly, exactly. And if they were to magically get their act together, although I don't really have much faith in that.

Again, they're the good ideas or the good data and research that they do have could be leaned on. They could be a partner. I just don't have faith that they're going to reform, because I mean, going back 10 plus years from Ebola outbreaks to West Africa to the COVID-19 pandemic to what they put out today on things like vaping and alcohol consumption. They just seem to have it wrong over and over again. And I think it's,

it would be better for Canadians if we took a hard look at why we're involved in this organization. But are we are we now creating a binary world where a Republican comes into office and pulls out the WHO and then a Democrat eventually gets elected and they go back into the WHO and the pendulum just keeps swinging back and forth? That's possible. I mean, that's possible because that is what has happened because Trump pulled out in his first term, Biden went back in and increased the First term, Biden went back in and increased the expenditure quite a bit. Did the WHO get any better in that seesaw? No, they didn't. There's been no reforms.

They are still kind of carrying on in their opaque way as they usually do. So I mean, there is some risk of a seesaw effect, but regardless of that seesaw effect, I think this is the right move. I listen, I love it in theory. I don't know that Donald Trump is the type of president who would be receptive to creating a super national body, regardless of what it's responsible for.

I think he believes it's America first, America only in a lot of cases. And he thinks we've got all the tools we need to take care of Americans here. And if we do need to project that strength abroad in the world of public health, we can do that ourselves. Yeah, but that wouldn't mean we can't collaborate with our partners and allies in Europe.

I mean, if you look at NATO as an example, the United States is one part of NATO, but there are a variety of other peer allies in that. And one of the criticisms that was kind of thrown at me was like, well, what about the third world? Are we leaving these people behind by only working with our peers? And I think that the support for Ukraine has shown that NATO, a NATO style body has the ability to respond to global crisis that don't include member states.

David Clement, thank you so much. I really appreciate the time. It's been a, this is a, it's certainly food for thought, my friend. I appreciate it. Thank you, Ben. Appreciate it. Welcome back to the show. And as I've said many times on this show, I believe that there is an absence of leadership at the federal level as it relates to our relationship with Donald Trump, and the reasons why there are Trump tariffs looming on the horizon to be dropped on this entire country like a neutron bomb tomorrow morning. And so in the absence of leadership, provincial leaders have stepped into the void, have stepped into the vacuum to fill that emptiness and to present their vision of how they in their own way can do what they can to stop these tariffs.

We've heard from many provincial premiers, but now we're learning that in British Columbia, Premier Eby has set up a war room to deal with the tariff threat. And joining us now is the leader of that war room, Ravi Callan, British Columbia's Housing and Municipal Affairs Minister. He's the head of the committee tasked with coordinating

a whole of government tariff response. Ravi, thank you so much for joining us on the Ben Mulroney Show. Hey Ben, thanks so much for having me. Okay, so what can you do now as a government that you couldn't do now that this war room has been enacted? Well, it's mainly focused on coordinating all of our efforts. You know, one of the things we learned through other

crises, the pandemic in particular, is that when government wants to get things done, we can get things done. And so the premier has basically given us three tasks. One, look for all opportunities that we can get together on how we can respond as a province. Focus on strengthening. I think there's an opportunity for us

to cut intra-provincial trade, find opportunities to produce things more locally, support our local industries, and as well diversify. We're close to markets on the West Coast. We have the ability to expand trade opportunities with our Asian partners, with South American partners. And so what does that look like for products

that used to go to the U.S.? Where can we find new markets? And obviously for some of the things that we relied on the US on, where can we become more resilient and self reliant as well? I want to keep my eyes on the on the tariff prize, but I a question just popped up in my mind that, you know, in a crisis, a crisis can breed opportunity and it can breed innovation. And is there a case to be made that this whole of government tariff response by way of a new committee,

by breaking down the silos of the ministries, perhaps that could be a more effective efficient way of delivering government services and just moving forward day to day as a government after this crisis has passed? No doubt. I mean, some of the innovations that we had through the pandemic and you know, we're proud of British Columbia. We came out of the pandemic with the strongest economic recovery for any province in the country. And partly because we had a lot of lessons, but mainly because

in BC, we have got industry, First Nations, labor, everyone at the table saying let's work together, let's find solutions together and let's not look at just problems, let's look at the opportunities as you've highlighted. And so we're using the same playbook here. For example, Ben, we're going to launch the largest expansion of wind projects so that we can become more energy independent in British Columbia. One of the things that we've done is we've said, we're going to waive all environmental assessments for all these major projects, billions of dollars of projects. This is the cleanest type of energy you can provide. Surely we can skip processes

around environmental assessment for something that is going you know, gonna help us in the energy transition. So we're looking at everything. The premier, premier Ibi said everything is on the table. And part of the work that I'm doing as chair of this committee is working with our ministries to identify every single possibility that we have to ensure that our economy stays strong. Ravi, a little bit earlier on the show,

we had Kevin O'Leary give us his theory on how we may be able to get an 11th hour reprieve on these tariffs that we expect to be dropped tomorrow morning. Let's listen to what he had to say. We got to figure that out in the next 20 hours. So I expect the other premieres will do the same thing that Daniel Smith did and get out there and communicate that they don't want fentanyl in their provinces either. They don't want the Chinese using a forest border in their provinces. This is the focus right now. And if we get this done, the only objective is to kick this whole issue down the road until we have a

federal election and we put a mandate in place with ever the new leader is going to be to negotiate with Trump on NAFTA three, because there's a big economic opportunity here, not a downside. That's who should be focusing on. So let's get that message out. Let's get it out on Fox. Let's get every premier saying, I'll top up with an extra whatever it is. Like Smith did. 29 million bucks Canadian is nothing in the context of what it costs to get involved in, in a trade war. Robbie love him or hate him. It is, he has had the context of what it costs to get involved in in a trade war. Ravi, love him or hate him. It is, he has had the ear of the president. He's spent time with him. He knows him as well as pretty much any leader we have in this country, probably be,

with the exception of Danielle Smith. What do you make of his assessment? Well, there's many things there. And, you know, I'll leave Mr. O'Leary's, I guess, many things there. And, you know, I'll leave Mr. O'Leary's, I guess, background aside for a moment and just go at the context of what he's getting at. And, you know, the challenge we have, all leaders have, is the decision around Mr. Trump's bringing in tariffs. The line has moved so many times. I mean, at first it was because fentanyl is coming across the border. Now, let's was coming across the border. Now let's set aside that the US border services says only 1% of the fentanyl that's come across into the US

has come across our border. But the federal government said, okay, there's a billion and a half coming and they should do more. No doubt we should make sure that our borders are safe. And in British Columbia, we've been arguing for a long time that we need better policing on our ports. So not worried just only on stuff getting to the US,

but what stuff gets into Canada through our ports. So we're there. But the challenge we have is when you hear from the US that there's a trade imbalance, and this is all about making sure the trade balance is addressed, well, we know it's partly because of the oil that goes into the US. And then when we

hear that this is about expansion and the dream of expanding the US empire, well, that puts shivers down all over our spines because there's no in hell that that's happening where Canada is joining the United States. So, you know, where there's reasonable opportunities, the federal government definitely needs to be at the table. The border is the US, sorry, the Canadian government's responsibility. They have to take the lead on that. And what we're doing in British Columbia is reaching out to all of our partners in the US. We've got a lot of good

relationships that have been built. We are actually engaging with all of them as well. So, yes, I agree with Mr. Leary that we need to leverage our relationships in the US as best we can, but it's hard and we're not the only jurisdiction struggling with this. Every jurisdiction, Mexico, South American countries, even European countries are trying to figure out what Mr.

Trump is thinking and it's really difficult day to day. I think everybody's hoping for a reprieve, but I think we have to plan for 25% tariffs across the board as of tomorrow morning. We've heard from a number of economists who say, we will feel that impact immediately. One split second after he drops those tariffs is when the economy in Canada will be affected. So what is the plan for that very first moment from your government?

Well, I would say that the U S citizens will start feeling it immediately as well. And I would say on top of that, Ben, is that it's not only for when that happens. I mean, we're starting to feel that across the country already, where people are making decisions, investment decisions, and they're like, we're not sure. We're not sure what we're going to do. And so that uncertainty in itself causes a lot of challenges. And so it's in the interest of everyone to find a way to path forward that avoids this because our

economies are interlinked. We are focused in British Columbia on, sorry Ben. No, no, you're focused on? Oh, we're focused on key measures that we can bring forward in responding to tariffs because we are not going to leave tariffs on the table without response. But we also are looking at strategies around how do we advance our critical minerals, we have just discovered another gold mine, we've got a whole host of investment projects in our resources. And we're trying to

find ways to expedite that. You know, we do have a path forward, Ben, I agree with you that there are opportunities that come in this challenge, but it won't be easy. It will be some tough days, but we're ready in British Columbia and our partners are at the table working with us on it. I do not envy you the monumental task that you and your cabinet and your war room and your premier,

as well as all of our leaders all the way up to the feds have in these coming days and weeks and months. And I'm just hoping sir that the damage of these tariffs affects the United States to the point that he reconsiders so if he does drop them tomorrow I hope he lifts them very very shortly thereafter because he realizes that he's hurting his very people with them. But I thank you for your time and I thank you for your commitment to Canada. Ben, thanks so much for having me and I look forward to coming back anytime soon. She has partial retrograde amnesia. She can't remember the last eight years.

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