The Ben Mulroney Show - Where will PM Carney find the money for nation building?

Episode Date: June 26, 2025

Guests and Topics: -Senator Larry Smith If you enjoyed the podcast, tell a friend! For more of the Ben Mulroney Show, subscribe to the podcast! https://link.chtbl.com/bms Also, on youtube -- https://www.youtube.com/@BenMulroneyShow Follow Ben on Twitter/X at https://x.com/BenMulroney Enjoy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Welcome to the Ben Mulroney Show and just a reminder at 1130 at the end of this show, we are going to have a really interesting conversation with a man who built an incredibly successful company all while dealing with a crack addiction. Gordon Lownes is going to be joining us. He is the co-founder of Sleep Country Canada. And while he was running that business, he was also grappling with a terrible addiction. And we're going to talk to him about the addiction, his recovery, as well as what he thinks of more generally the the recovery industry,

because he's got a very particular perspective on what works, what doesn't. And so please join us for that. That's at 1130 near the tail end of the Ben Mulroney show today. All right. So you guys know me at this point, and you know who I voted for in the last election. My guy didn't win, but I'm also the type of person who recognizes that when the battle is done, you put down your swords and you work with whoever did win. And if you don't work with them, at the very least, you wish them well. And you hold them to account when you think they're not doing the right thing or saying

the right thing. And if I am being completely honest, which I try to be each and every day on this show, I have seen some things, a lot of things from Mark Carney that have pleased me, not for nothing. It feels like a lot of his policies were lifted straight out of the conservative playbook. So I'm fine with that. I consider myself lucky.

But on a lot of other files, Mark Carney's general outlook on where we need to take this country aligns quite well with what I see are immediate imperatives of Canada. One of them is how shameful our behavior has been and our treatment has been of our men and women in uniform, as well as those who have previously served our veterans. And it has, we talked about it yesterday, that Canada is looking not just to live up to our commitment of spending 2% of our GDP on our military

to fall in line with our commitments with NATO, but there is a new push to move that from 2% to 5%. And he says he's on board with that. I asked the question yesterday, where are we gonna find that money? Because $150 billion is not something you can just divine unless you are Justin Trudeau. And so, and I don't think that that is a path

that Mark Carney wants to go down. So if you're gonna find $150 billion, you're gonna have to make some cuts to other programs. Here is our Prime Minister in his own words. The question is, as we move towards later in this decade, and depending on how the threat environment evolves globally, if we are moving to the higher and higher levels of defense spending because that's necessary, then we will have to make considerations

about what less the federal government can do in certain cases and how we're going to pay for it. Those trade-offs, I'm gonna give you false precision around this, but those trade-offs happen towards the end of the decade into the next decade. Yeah, and listen, I don't have a problem with that. I like the fact that we are going to ramp up military spending to get to 2% really quickly, and then work our way over the next five, six years to get to the the 5% in whatever math that works like is not 5% in direct military

spending. There's a portion of it that's spent on military infrastructure, whatever that means. Look, these are stretch goals. This is not something we're gonna achieve in a straight line, and I'm sure that there are gonna be some setbacks, and I'm sure there are gonna be some boondoggles. But what I actually heard there as well

seems like it was lifted out of the playbook of Jean Chrétien and Paul Martin when Paul Martin was the finance minister because that liberal government gets credit for slaying the deficit. And it happened on their watch, but it didn't happen because it didn't exclusively happen because of moves they made.

A lot of it preceded them in the previous government from the hard work that was done there. And so they want to take credit for it, no problem. But one of the things they did to get themselves there was offloading a lot of healthcare costs that used to be borne by the feds onto the provinces. And we're still feeling those effects in various healthcare systems across this country. But it was the right move in order to slay

the national deficit and start eating away at the debt. And so when I hear him saying, we're gonna look at the federal government not doing all the things it's doing, what I hear there is the possibility of re-imagining the responsibilities of the federal government and possibly offloading some of those responsibilities to provinces that may want to opt into those things.

These are centrist ideas. These are ideas that people from, you know, as far as from the center right to the center left, maybe even as well on the right can get behind. And I certainly am open to that and glad that he is looking at that. And he should be looking at everything because if you're committing to that huge of a commitment,

then every idea should be explored. And people like me should be explored. And people like me should be open to, give them the space to explore those as well. So you'll get that from me, Mr. Prime Minister. One of the key members of the Prime Minister's cabinet who is gonna help move this country into a place we should have been years ago is our Energy and Natural Resources Minister, Hodson,

who is calling for a wartime effort to build big national infrastructure projects, which are envisioned by the recently passing of Bill C-5. So he gave a keynote speech at the Toronto Board of Trade, just down the street from here, as a matter of fact, where he called, it was a call to action, to business leaders to, as he said, bring your best ideas forward

as the country attempts to retool the economy like it did at the end of the Second World War. This is very much in keeping with what the Prime Minister campaigned on. So I like to see that there is a continuation of that beyond sloganeering during a campaign and that it looks like the federal government is marshaling its resources and its talent to get these things done. And look, here's another line I like. Now, we must stand side by side once again from coast to coast to coast, indigenous and non-indigenous

industries, small businesses and entrepreneurs. We need that same spirit that we had back in 1945. I like that he started with indigenous. The fact is there is a belief out there, rightly or wrongly, accurately or inaccurately, that certain indigenous groups present roadblocks to development. And it is true that there are those voices out there. I don't know if they represent the majority.

I suspect they don't. I suspect if you ask indigenous groups writ large, are you in favor of national projects that if you are consulted and brought in as equity partners, as real partners, where you and your communities, as buy-in partners, as enthusiastic endorsers of these projects, as participants, both in terms of the revenue,

but also in terms of the jobs that they create. Would you be willing to participate in these? I suspect a great many of them would say yes. A great many of them would find ways to help accelerate that growth. And so I very much like that the importance of that first stakeholder was indigenous. And so that's again, something I was glad to hear.

And back to Bill C-5, we know that that passed the House of Commons and now it is in the hands of the Senate. We know that the conservatives supported Bill C-5. With the conservatives and the liberals supporting this bill, that represents about 80% of the voters in the last election. That is consensus, ladies and gentlemen, that is the will of the people being expressed in a piece of

legislation. So now it's got to pass the the Senate. But however, Prime Minister Mark Carney's point person in the Senate is pressing for swift passage of the government's nation building projects bill, but isn't certain that it can get through unamended before the upper house is scheduled to break for the summer. This is a problem for me. I, listen, I accept the fact that the Senate exists. I accept the fact it is unelected,

but I do think that they have a role to play. And if the government has given you a bill, you don't get to go on vacation until you've dealt with that bill. And so I'm very curious to see how that goes. In our next segment, we will be talking to a Senator, Senator Larry Smith. Also, key point, the father of a colleague of mine here at Chorus Radio, Brad Smith. We're going to ask him what the heck's going on in Canada's upper chamber?

Don't go anywhere. This is the Ben Mulroney Show. Welcome back to the Ben Mulroney Show and prior to the break, we were talking about Bill C-5 that's got massive buy-in from the Conservatives. It's a liberal bill. It's about getting this country moving, massive infrastructure plans.

And before a bill in Canada can become law, it's gotta pass the Senate. And so it's done what it needs to do in our lower house and now it is in the upper chamber. But there is concern that the Senate won't be able to get to it before it rises for the summer, which to me is a problem. And so we're joined now by someone who's actually,

it was in the Senate just a few moments ago. He stepped out to talk to us. They are in a furious session right now. And he's also responsible, at least in part, for the person who sat in for me on the Ben Mulroney Show last Friday. I'm talking about Brad Smith. This is his father, Senator Larry Smith.

Senator, welcome to the show, and thank you very much. Jeez, hi, Brad. How are you? I'm good. I'm good. So thank you so much for taking time out of your day. Tell me where you're. I'm picking on you, Ben.

I called you Brad. That's OK. So tell me, Senator, you just stepped out of the Senate chamber. What are you discussing in there right now? Are you discussing those there right now? Are you discussing those C5? Yes, sir.

We're going through a second reading and the third reading. There's probably about eight to 10 people that will be speaking on the bill. And it's fast and furious at this particular point in time. Okay, so are you hopeful that it will pass the Senate and then you guys can rise for the summer? Up till now, there seems to be up to four people that may have some modifications or changes to the bill in terms of amendments, but we'll have to see. It's sort of, you're on the run at this particular time because it's dependent upon some of these four people

and what they're going to try to implement in terms of adding or subtracting from the actual proceedings as we talk right now. Can you not take a vote inside the Senate and say, hey, let's just all agree that we're not leaving here until this thing is done? Well, Ben, we're not at that particular point right now because things seem to be going relatively smoothly.

It's when somebody tries to throw a wrench into the process that you have these situations. So it's head down, get the work done, and only if we find ourselves up against the clock worried about not being able to do it will we cross that bridge. Yeah, I think we're in this for the long run to make sure that we get something done. So we'll have to wait and see. So do me a favour, Senator. I know that most Canadians, when they hear about the Senate, all they think is unelected people.

Remind our listeners what the value within our system is of the Senate. What role does the Senate play? Well, the common theme, Ben, is we review legislation, we go over it thoroughly, we try to pick out the pros and the cons, but we want to have legislation that is going to benefit and be beneficial to the lives of all Canadians. So that is a thought behind our role.

I equate it to be like a quality control role, but something that's very important. You have to have good quality in your product so that you have a good result. It's the, what's the House of Sober Second Thought, as my dad told me it was. Exactly. But, so, okay, so it went through the House of Commons,

it got some amendments put into it, then it goes to you. Does the Senate propose amendments as well? The Senate can propose amendments, but we have to respect what's gone on in the Commons in terms of what they've done and the modifications they've made to the bill. So you always have to be conscious of your role.

Yeah, and how much are you allowed to change before you have to kick it back to the House of Commons and say, look, we looked at this, but we actually have some serious questions. And so we cannot pass it in its current form. How does it work? Is there a threshold by which you can say, we can tweak it to a certain amount

and then move it forward? Or, because it has to receive royal assent after the Senate correct. Yes, and that's a great question, Ben. How far do you go from the Senate's perspective? Well, there are certain cases where you're going to try to go to an extreme. But again, all the pros and cons are discussed and balanced within the Senate before we make any decision whether we're going to take an amendment and move it forward

and hit it back to the commons. So Bill C-5 is the centerpiece of this new Carney government and by all estimations, given the fact that the Tories are in support of it, I mean, this represents buy-in from 80% of the voters that voted in the last election. Does that calculus play in each senator's mind when deciding whether they wanna tweak something?

Because you're essentially looking at a piece of legislation that represents the will of the people. Ben, that's a great question. And all of us are very, very aware of the importance of this legislation. We're aware of the importance of the situation we're in, thanks to Donald Trump and the trade tariffs that he has imposed on many countries in the world and, of course, on Canada. With all of the environment being as, I'm not going to say unstable, but it is unstable, this is a critical moment in the history of Canada.

And there are all sorts of critical moments, but in modern times, this is a critical juncture in our history. And it's important that we get it right. And to get it right, we have to make sure we recognize Indigenous rights, we have to recognize the importance of climate change, and all, we have to make sure we recognize indigenous rights. We have to recognize the importance of climate change. And all these issues have to be discussed and negotiated and put in a position where we can have success. Senator, at this point, what are, are there any sticking points?

I mean, how would you describe the debate that is currently going on inside the Senate? Are there, are there key points that you guys are having a tough time getting over or are you really just, are you quibbling over sort of peripheral things right now? I think there's really two things that are major in this discussion, Bennett, and one is indigenous rights. And the indigenous rights are now in the constitution under section 35 of the Universal Act.

And it's important that the right type of communication takes place with the Indigenous population. And there has been some complaints where you put a bill and try to get a bill through and then you say, okay, well, we're going to put this bill through, but then we'll have some communication with the indigenous population. That's right. Just last week, just last week, our prime minister had stated his goal that in early July he's going to meet with First Nations at a summit. And then a few weeks later, he's going to meet with Inui members for their own summit, and then he's

going to have a third summit with Métis Canadians. So are you suggesting that that commitment is, because it doesn't have the basis in legislation, that's not enough? I'm not saying that. I think that's a great start. But at the same time, what the Indigenous folks are saying is, hey, before you pass the bill, we would have liked to have been part of the discussion. Do you see what I'm saying? And it's all about timing and it's all about positioning. And I'm not being critical of the Prime Minister. I think he's doing a great job and he has lots of work to do because there's so many issues and there's so many different folks involved in this particular situation. But it's incredibly important that the issue of dealing with two issues,

the indigenous population across the country and there's a great number of folks in different groups. And then the whole situation with climate control and climate rights. These are two of the key issues that need to be delicately but thoroughly handled. How does this debate differ from other debates that you've been involved in as it relates to your working well with, you know, people who'd be viewed as political opponents? I know that the liberals don't have

an official caucus anymore since since Justin Trudeau changed those rules on on his side of the aisle. But but you know, you I'm sure you've been involved in contentious debates in the past. How does this one differ? Are you guys working in a more collaborative way than you've you might have in the past? Well, one of the big legislations that we worked on historically was assisted dying. And that was a very, very huge and important discussion that we had. And emotionally challenging and draining.

This is a similar situation, but different circumstances. And I think that what we're facing now is making sure that as we get all the input from all the different groups and it's timed in a certain way that where you're showing respect and you're showing decision making authority and all these factors then will fall into hopefully as making the proper decision at the proper time. And today, hopefully that could be the proper time. Senator Larry Smith, thank you so much for taking time out of the debate. I know you've got lots of work to do. Here's hoping you can get it over the finish line. And listen, if you ever want to have

another adult conversation on the radio, do me a favor. Don't take your son's phone calls. Just call us here at the Ben Mulroney Show. We appreciate it. Ben, thank you so much. in the universe is back. Ahh! What the hell? Oh, sh-t. How long was I out? Close airlock seven! Rick! Seth, please let me out. Rick put you in there for a reason, sweetie.

Mom, justice! Ahh! Get back here! This is for your own good! Ahh! Rick and Morty. New season, Sundays on Adult Swim. Stream on StackTV.

Get your mouth rounded.