The Ben Mulroney Show - Why is renovating 24 Sussex such a political football

Episode Date: May 7, 2025

Guests and Topics: -Why is renovating 24 Sussex such a political football with Guest: Craig Baird, Host of Canadian History Ehx If you enjoyed the podcast, tell a friend! For more of the Ben Mulroney Show, subscribe to the podcast! https://globalnews.ca/national/program/the-ben-mulroney-show Follow Ben on Twitter/X at https://x.com/BenMulroney Enjoy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Welcome back to the Ben Mulroney Show and I've told you many times I love Canadian history. Just yesterday after work I went to the release party, if you will, the launch of the new Historica Canadian Heritage Minute. And it was in honor of the first Jewish Supreme Court Chief Justice in Canada, Boralaskan, and it stars Victor Garber. And I was speaking with the CEO of Historica. And I said to him, I went up to him and I said, hey, do you know Craig Baird of Canadian history?

He actually goes, oh God, I know Craig Baird. What a great guy. What a great guy. And I said, you're absolutely right, which is why I have him on my show every Wednesday to teach me and you things about Canadian history that we should probably know. Craig Baird, welcome to the show. Thanks to teach me and you things about Canadian history that we should probably know. Craig Baird, welcome to the show. Thanks for having me. Okay, so let's talk about something

that I know a little bit about, probably not the history that you know, but the the official residence of the Prime Minister of Canada, 24 Sussex Drive. Yeah, 24 Sussex Drive was kind of a very important building for quite a while. It was actually built between 1866 and 1868. And it was built by Joseph Merrill Currier, who was a member of parliament and he built it for his wife, Hannah. And he lived it in for a time and then eventually his nephew who was also a member of parliament took it over and then Gordon Edwards, nephew of William Edwards took it over and he had the home until he died in 1946. And then at that point, the government decided that they wanted to turn it into an

official residence for the prime minister. And in 1951, that's when Louis Saint Laurent moved in. And one really cool aspect of this is that he only agreed to do this if he paid rent. So the prime minister actually paid rent from 1951 to 1971 of about $5,000 a year, which is no small amount of money for that period of time. Sure. Yeah. But it's, listen, I lived there. And as a kid, I thought it was really cool and really big. I went back as an adult and realized it's not that impressive. Yeah. In terms of, I guess, homes for the, you know, the leader of the country, it isn't that impressive of a home, but certainly isn the leader of the country, it isn't that impressive of a home, but certainly isn't now. I mean, it's really started to kind of have a bit

of wear and tear. So your father, Brian Mulroney, was actually the first to make it public, the cost of renovations. And it wasn't public before that. So you'd have things like pools being added and all these other things. But when he did that, that kind of made it so that there's a bit more public scrutiny on the renovations. And then the last major renovation happened in 2001. And since then, it's kind of just been deteriorating. And Stephen Harper was actually the last prime minister to live at 24 Sussex. Well, we went and visited 24 after when, when Stephen Harper was prime minister, I hadn't been back in years,

and so much of the house had not changed. Like I'm talking that no one painted any rooms and it had no central air, it had asbestos in the walls. Once they opened them up a few months ago, they found rats in the walls. I mean, this is the, the, the, the descent into a pit, that pitiful state is, I think, a sorry take on, on us as Canadians, because we, we, we weaponize leaders in a way that shows that world leader that we are proud of our country because we have this home that represents it and instead of that we've

got we're so petty about the nickel and diming and and forgetting that that house should stand as a symbol beyond partisan politics. Well, absolutely. And I mean, it is going to cost millions of dollars to fix, but it really should be, you know, renovated and improved because you have, you know, 10 Downey Street and you have the White House and you have 24 Sussex and there needs to be a permanent home for the prime minister where, like you said, they're greeting heads of state and dignitaries and such. My two cents is raise it to the ground, keep the address of 24 Sussex because it's so important, and build the most forward-thinking residence for any leader in the world,

built with Canadian know-how, Canadian technology, Canadian lumber, Canadian aluminum, Canadian steel, and build something that has the lowest carbon footprint imaginable and show the world what we are capable of doing. That's my two cents and now I want to turn over to what you're looking at this week, a gentleman by the name of Igor Guzenko. Igor Guzenko was actually a very important person in our history. So yeah, he was a cipher clerk with the Soviet Embassy in Ottawa and in 1945, right after the war ended, he actually defected to Canada from the Soviet Union and he took documents with him that kind of proved that the Soviets were spying on their second world war allies. And it also showed that

there was a massive spying in Canada of Soviet operatives. And one of those was a member of parliament named Fred Rose, who eventually was ousted from parliament and convicted and then eventually left Canada. Wait a second. I believe in Poland. Hold on. We had a Russian spy elected as an MP? Yeah, Fred Rose. He's the only, I believe the only member of parliament to be convicted of a crime like

that of conspiring to steal weapon research for the Soviet Union. And yeah, he moved to Poland and actually had his citizenship revoked afterwards. I feel so embarrassed that I don't know the name of this Fred Rose dude. That's incredible. And so how did how did Guzenko defect? Do you know the process by which he did it? Yeah, essentially what he did was he was stealing documents over the course of several weeks because he saw you know What life was like in Canada and he wanted to remain here with his wife and family and he knew that there was always rumors that

Cypher clerks, you know when they were sent back to the Soviet Union didn't always Return to the Soviet Union. They kind of just disappeared. Really? And so he was very worried about that. And so he just kept stealing documents. And then one day, just never came back to work. And that's when the Soviets started to look for him. And, you know, he had obviously was under the protection of the RCMP and some very powerful individuals like Sir William Stevenson, who was, you know was an inspiration for James Bond. He was born in Winnipeg and was a spymaster and created Camp X.

Okay, let's listen to a snippet of Igor Guzenko. Guzenko and his family were terrified. They had made a decision that was going to cost them their lives. From their perspective, no one seemed to care about the stolen Soviet documents. On the night of September 6, 1945, Kozenko and his family returned to their apartment, fully expecting to be nabbed by the Soviets. Kozenko likely knew that rumors would be swirling about him among both Canadian and Soviet operatives in Ottawa. The fact he didn't go into work that day also didn't help to keep his defection a secret.

The Soviets had also discovered the missing documents and they were on their way. Gozenko saw two men out in a car looking up at his apartment. He believed they were Soviets, but they were in fact two RCMP members who had been tasked with monitoring him, but Gozenko was not going to leave anything to chance. That night he took his family to the neighbor across the hall and stayed there. And at some point in the middle of the night, four NKVD officers burst into the apartment looking for him and the papers he stole. Across the hall Igor Gozenko watched everything unfold from his neighbor's keyhole. The Russians left empty-handed. Craig, this sounds like the most exciting thing that has ever happened in Ottawa ever.

I would have to say it is a pretty exciting thing that has ever happened in Ottawa ever. I would have to say it is a pretty exciting thing. It's a really interesting thing. William Lyme McKenzie King, who was our prime minister, didn't really want to act on it. So William Stevenson, the the spymaster actually leaked the story to the press to really push King to act because he was worried about angering the Soviets. Well, that was going to be my, that was good. Craig, that was going to be my question. We must, that must've led to a sort of a frosting of the relationship between the Soviet Union and Canada. Oh, absolutely it did.

And obviously the Soviets denied any everything and, you know, Canada knew what was going on, but Gozenko was actually taken to Camp X with his family. They celebrated Christmas there because he had to be under protection. And through the rest of his life, he wrote books. But whenever he appeared in the media, he always appeared with a bag over his head to hide his identity because he was always worried that the Soviets were eventually going to find him. Well, yeah. And was he able, do we know

how his life ended? Yeah, he actually lived a very quiet life. He, like I said, wrote books, but he died in Mississauga in 1982 and, you know, was, had a relatively good life. He didn't have quite as much fame later in life, which I think he wasn't very happy about, but he definitely had a massive impact and really made people consider him kind of kickstarting the Cold War itself. Oh my goodness. I can't wait to listen to this, Craig Baird. Last question, very quick. His whole family, they were okay? They were safe?

Yeah, everybody was safe and just lived a good life in Canada. And, you know, they always did have the RCMP kind of watching out for them and making sure that nothing happened. But it seemed like after the whole affair ended, the Soviets kind of just washed their hands of him and let him stay in Canada. All right. Well, it's on Canadian History X. It's the story of Igor Guzenko, Craig Baird. As always, thank you so much. Thanks for having me again. Welcome back to The Ben Mulroney Show and thank you for joining us as we build The Ben Mulroney Show. We think it's becoming something kind of fun,

and we're really glad that we've got listeners across the country. And the best way for us to find you is wherever you want to find us. And that's why we're on streaming apps, we're on the Chorus Radio Network, and of course, we're on all podcast platforms, Spotify, Apple Music, and Amazon Music.

So just search up Ben Mulroney or the Ben Mulroney Show. We like to post content all day long, and there's a lot up there to enjoy. So I want to take a moment and talk about the, what seems like a duel happening between Ontario and Alberta. You'll remember that in the lead up to the election after Donald Trump was elected,

Danielle Smith of Alberta and Doug Ford of Ontario really stepped up into leadership roles as they went down to Washington and Mar-a-Lago and did what they could do to advance the cause of Canada against the looming tariff threat of Donald Trump. And so they really became national figures over the course of a few months. So now when they speak, the whole country listens in a way that didn't happen with our our premiers in the past, I don't think. And Danielle Smith, if you'll remember a few days ago, offered up a speech or a press conference where she said, look, she's a strong Federalist,

she believes in Canada, but if enough Albertans make their voices heard on separation, then separation will be on the referendum in 2026. And Doug Ford was having none of that. Let's listen to Doug Ford's comments about Danielle Smith. Well, Doug and I have a great friendship. We don't agree on everything. In fact, I think we supported different people in the last federal election. And so we don't have to agree on everything.

But what I will say is we have a constructive conversation at the cough table. I continue to look forward to having a constructive conversation with him at the cough table. But he's on he's the premier of Ontario. I'm the premier of Alberta. We just have different issues that we have to respond to in our respective jurisdictions. So my I don't tell him how he should run his province. And I would hope that he doesn't tell me how I should run mine. But we have a very respectful relationship. And I hope that continues. Yeah, my apologies. What happened was Doug Ford came out quite emotionally saying, you know, you got a new

prime minister who's gone down to Washington. He's got a big job and you're cutting his knees, cutting him from under his knees by talking about this separation stuff. And Danielle Smith came back and I got to say, it's a heck of a jab. I think we said, I think we supported different people in the election. We know that she supported Pierre Poliev. So the implication is that he was working hard

for Mark Carney. I gave you my opinions on the Danielle Smith situation yesterday. I don't think you prove that you are a proud Canadian Federalist and proud of keeping Canada together by making it easier for anybody to break the country up. And there may be a method to her madness.

I don't see it. We all know that Pierre Poliev has not won his seat on top of not winning the election. So he is in another fight in Alberta now, in Battle Creek, Alberta. He's going to try to win a seat to then be in the House of Commons by I believe June. And so they need an interim leader in the House. And that new leader is Andrew Scheer, former leader of the party. He confirmed to Vashi Kapulos that he's going to be that interim leader. I can confirm that our caucus has chosen me to be the parliamentary leader, if you will,

the person who will have the, for procedural reasons, will sign the forms and do the things in the House until our leader, Pierre Poliev, rejoins us. We're thrilled that we have a path forward to that. One of our colleagues, Damien Kirk from Battle River Crofoot has very selflessly offered a path for Pierre to rejoin us in the House of Commons. So for the very short term, just for a few weeks, I'll be fulfilling the duties that need to be done by someone from the House of Commons.

Gosh, I'm making mistakes all the time. Battle River Crowfoot, not Battle Creek. I apologize to the people of Battle River Crowfoot who may be listening right now. And look, there are, this is one of those things people are going to either criticize this choice or not. Andrew Shear just said it himself. It's a procedural thing. It's a placeholder. He's just got, he has to keep the wheels on. He's got to keep the trains running on time. He's got to keep the caucus in line. That's it. But Pierre Poliev is still the leader,

assuming he survives whatever the next test is of his leadership. And so, you know, you can complain about it. I'm seeing people taking issue with him online because that's what happens on Twitter. But if it feels to me of all the things to be outraged over or criticized, do you really have time for that in the world we're living in

today? This is an internal matter for the the Tories, it doesn't affect anything or anyone. And if that's the person they selected, that's the person they selected. I believe he's, he's positioned himself pretty well over that last few months. I thought he was pretty effective in his social media during the election campaign. I thought he did some really great stuff.

But to me, it did highlight possibly a failing of the conservative campaign. Now that I look back, you know, with the exception of maybe a handful of MPs who ran for re-election, and with the exception of my colleague here at 640 Toronto who ran, I couldn't really tell you about the candidates and who they were and what they stood for and what their backgrounds were because they were really kept at bay. They were not really highlighted as much as I think they could be. And I understand there's a

fear when you're running a national campaign, an entire federal election campaign, you've got over 300 candidates. If you let them all off the leash, some of them are going to are going to say or do something stupid. And so you have to circumscribe them and you've got to protect the brand and the party above the candidate. But there are in every bunch, if you've got somescribe them and you've got to protect the brand and the party above the candidate. But there are in every bunch, if you've got some crackpots, you're also going to have some stars and you need to highlight those stars. And the fact that after this election I still don't know any of the names, any new names that I didn't know before, I think speaks to, I don't know, playing it a little too safe with your candidates.

And there may be a nuance where they can thread that needle and find a way to ensure that the party is not damaged by somebody who might go off script to say something stupid, all while highlighting the fact that you've attracted some really great people into the fold. But that's a quick observation, and hopefully they'll resolve that come the next election. One of the big criticisms of Pierre Poliev is that he didn't do some of the podcasts in the United States that could have garnered him the victory, I don't know. Here's Joe Rogan, the biggest podcaster in the United States that could have garnered him the victory. I don't know. Here's Joe Rogan, the biggest podcaster in the world saying that he offered a slot to Pierre Poliev to come onto his

podcast. I offered to have that Pierre guy come on the podcast. Really? He didn't do it. Wouldn't do it. Thought it was too problematic or whatever. Jordan told me, I forget what he said, but they were telling him not to do it. Like his advisors were telling him not to do it. And I agree that he shouldn't have done it. I don't think that that would have garnered him any of the votes he needed. He had a good, solid, you know, the people who were going to vote for him wouldn't have not voted for him had he gone on that show. But he lost because of seniors and women. had he gone on on that show, but he lost because of seniors and women. Explain to me how going on on Rogan.

Or Patrick Bed, David gets him those people, it doesn't. So you got to know your audience and you got to know your voters. And that that would not have won him anything. In fact, it may have hindered him or damaged him. The one thing that would have come out of that conversation is because it's so free flowing and it's three hours long, you have the opportunity to speak in a way that doesn't sound canned. It's not a speech and it's not talking points.

And you have the opportunity to see somebody as they really are. You get to see how their brain works. You get to hear them on topics that you would never hear them talk about otherwise. I just don't know that the messenger is right. The idea of him doing podcasts like that is a good one, but the messenger in Joe Rogan

would not have garnered him any more votes, especially the votes that he needed to get to expand his coalition, to get beyond 41 points, some odd points, in order to achieve a victory in that election. So I do appreciate the value of Joe Rogan. I do appreciate the format.

I do appreciate the importance of his podcast. But in the context of the Canadian electorate, I simply do not see going on Joe Rogan as anything that would have benefited him and probably would have hurt him. Welcome back to the Ben Mulroney Show and today we are really leaning into what was a, I guess, really a seminal moment, a really important moment for our nation moving forward in this new reality of Donald Trump's tariffed world. Mark Carney, having come off of an election campaign, saying that he was the right guy to meet this moment. Well, the moment met him yesterday in

Washington. But before we look at Washington, let's cast our eyes and ears back to the election campaign. Here is how Mark Carney. Well, one of the reasons he got elected and here is here was his view of America during the election campaign. The world economy is fundamentally changed. The relationship, the relationship we had with the Americans. These guys weren't wrong. They want us to be the 50 First Tape. They want to break us.

They want to break us so they can own us. They want, they want our resources. They want our water. They want our land. They want our country. I mean, that's pretty stark. That's pretty scary. That's that feels like the Americans are are massing at the border.

And so he gets elected in part due to that narrative. So when he shows up at the White House, as our newly minted prime minister, having sold us that narrative, I don't think there's anything wrong with being a little surprised by this. Thank you for your hospitality and above all for your leadership. You're a transformational president, the focus on the economy with a relentless focus on the American worker, securing your borders, providing, ending the scourge of fentanyl and other opioids and securing the world. So I'd like you to call us at the Ben Mulroney show and let me know your reaction to how Mark Carney acquitted himself with Donald Trump. Did you leave that meeting?

Did you leave? Did he leave that meeting making you feel more optimistic? Are you upset that he campaigned, as I just described on the imminent threat of annexation and then turned around and immediately heaped praise on the president calling him a transform transformational leader? That doesn't bother me. I want to be very clear. This was a successful meeting. This was a successful meeting where he positioned himself as a serious leader and he also did what I think is essential in those moments with Donald Trump is you got to be fawning. You've got to be you've got to kiss the ring.

You're on his home turf. He is hosting you. You've got to be kind. You've got to be flattering. These are things that work to your benefit. And again what happened in public that's the pageantry. What happens behind closed doors that's the serious stuff. But I cannot get away from the context, the larger context of the election campaign that we just went through where where Mark Carney was very explicit this relationship is over and only I know how to deal with Donald Trump. So if you call in and say well of course he had to do that everybody would have to do that no no no no no that's

not what Mark Carney promised us he promised us he would be different you can't do what everybody else would do in that scenario after you just got elected saying you would do things differently. And I'd love to hear from you. Anna, welcome to the show. Oh, let me, sorry. Anna, welcome to the show.

Hi. Hi, Ben. Hi, yes. Definitely very meek, meek, missed an opportunity. I don't think it's a black and white situation. We didn't need a Zelensky, Trump reprotei or pink, but we certainly needed him to step up at key milestone points in that diatribe of Mr. Trump.

Oh, I think now stay with me, Anna. But what do you think? Like, I started this show with a very particular outlook. And then I had a conversation earlier today with two ambassadors, a former American ambassador to Canada and a former Canadian ambassador to the US. And the US ambassador said that he knows people who are in the private part of that meeting

where it felt like Donald Trump was very inquisitive, wanted to know who Mark Carney knew, what his worldview was. And he seemed quite taken by this man and his sort of his success prior to politics. To me, that presents as a real opportunity for our prime minister to start exhibiting that soft power, that middle power that we used to occupy, where we were able to accomplish things on behalf of the sort of the Western, the Western values that the Americans probably couldn't. We can have conversations with people that he can't.

What do you think of the possibility that maybe what we saw yesterday was just the first volley and everything that happened behind closed doors could prove to be truly to the benefit of Canada? All right, I agree. That was I wanted to say that I was aware that behind closed doors, maybe something else had occurred, that it was that soft power you talk about. But you still need to to present some kind of I'll call it an energy where he sat there very neat, almost almost blatantly uncomfortable.

And of course, uncomfortable when he mentioned Christopher Lennon, and especially when he said that he insinuated may have influenced the election right clearly there was this disconnect and this almost a subservience and i i told myself i'm sure he was different behind closed doors but he missed an opportunity to present to us a different kind of carney but let's not forget and we're gonna thank you and we're kind of Carney. But let's not forget, Anna, we're going to thank you and we're going to leave it there. But let's not forget what he presented was that he wasn't Justin Trudeau.

And that is a net benefit because there was no love lost there. Anna, thank you for the call. And let's welcome Richard to the Ben Mulroney show. Hi, Ben. This year wasn't a meeting with Donald Trump. It wasn't a meeting with America. This was a meeting with the Canadian people, the people that Mark Carney duped went down there that he was going to be the tough guy from the beginning.

And you explained it perfectly. We thought the American tanks were at our border the way he was going on. Yeah. And yeah, he failed the Canadian people. And, you know, we say in front of the press, and then we say behind closed doors would be a different thing. Do you remember during COVID when all these leaders and politicians, when the cameras weren't on? Yeah, all the masks were off and everybody was and then they said, Okay, cameras on let's put our masks. Yeah, that's exactly

what politics is. Well, I would say Richard, I would say I think it's way too early to suggest that he failed the Canadian people. I do take him at his word, and I think he was absolutely right when he said, this is just the beginning. There are lots of things to unpack. There are lots of things to work.

And so long as he came out of there with his dignity intact, and with Donald Trump feeling positively towards him, then I think that's the beginning of a successful relationship. But Richard, I thank you for the call. Donald Trump gives everybody the warmest. Oh, he didn't do it for Zelensky. Hey, thanks for the call. And Anthony, welcome to the Ben

Mulroney show. Hi, Ben. Thanks. First of all, I'm a conservative, I voted conservative, but I want to say something about Carney Carney, you got to give credit credit is due. He's a good manager. This guy's been very successful around the world as a manager dealing at very very high level contracts and dealings okay you can't go in and piss off trump no trump is a suck we all know that trump lost the election and he didn't even shake hands with the prior with the new incumbent joe biden because he was a sack and you can't do that in a country that's the most democratic in the world so the point I'm saying is this is the kind of man he is if he went in there and tried to play the big shot against

Trump it wouldn't have worked Trump would have put a terrifying Anthony I get that a hundred percent. I'm not suggesting what he did was wrong. I'm saying what he did to get elected Almost required him to do something different than what he did yesterday. We don't know that yet. Well, no, no, no, listen, listen, there's a, there's a lot of road ahead. I'm simply saying that, and also let's also remember he disparaged his opponent by saying that he would have been the one to be the flattering one. He would have been the one to come in and kiss the ring and implied in that is he Mark Carney would not have done that and the fact that listen, it's politics

I get it you can do and say whatever you want to get elected the end and liberals do that all the time I'm just I'm like I don't have a short memory and I remember and you don't have to have a long memory to remember What was said three short weeks ago, but anyway, thank you very much. And again, it's not a full-on criticism. He got the job done yesterday. I'm just remembering what was said on the campaign trail. Will, welcome to the Ben Mulroney Show. This is Colin. Yeah, welcome.

You got about 30 seconds, my friend. Yeah, so I thought it was very disrespectful what President Trump called our Prime Minister Mark and what I would have liked to have seen from our Prime Minister was when he first started talking to him I'd have liked to have seen him say well it's good that we were on the first night in both this Donald and then said what he had to say and there really wouldn't have been very much for Donald because of the subject. Yeah, no you know what that is true that might have been a missed opportunity and it would have gone a long way to showing that you know he's not afraid of the guy but still

willing to be respectful. Anyway thank you very much for the call. To celebrate the Days of Our Lives 60th anniversary W Network and Stack TV invite you to enter for a chance to win the ultimate fan experience. By watching new episodes of Days of Our Lives, you and a guest could win a three-night stay in Los Angeles, a VIP Days of Our Lives set tour, a helicopter ride over LA, and so much more. Watch Weekdays at One and look for the weekly code word to enter. Days of Our Lives.

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