The Best One Yet - ☎️ HOTLINE: How to get Promoted with Corporate Natalie & Corporate Bro

Episode Date: September 13, 2024

Natalie & Ross help us answer your Qs about excelling in the office…Corporate Natalie (Natalie Marshall) & Corporate Bro (Ross Pomerantz) are the co-hosts of the Demoted podcast. Their comedic personas on IG & TikTok star in the video you just sent to your office bestie. Together, they have over 3M followers. This episode covers…Who *really* are Natalie & Ross? Why they got cancelled by 40M people Creators vs. Influencers The Tom Brady in the officeToxic work environments Doers vs Delegators Is an MBA worth it? FOR MORE NAT & ROSS: Demoted Podcast: Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/6tNVmal6Lme3VuqGkJh6z5?si=193e386ace08458c Apple: Should I go to Business School? (Demoted Ep.):Youtube: https://youtu.be/8qYJvb5FkFw?feature=shared THEIR SOCIALS:Natalie: @Corporatenatalie (IG, TikTok & LinkedIn)Ross: @Corporate.bro (IG, TikTok, & LinkedIn)  WATCH THIS EP. IN VIDEOYouTube: www.youtube.com/@tboypod ---00:00 - intro03:48 — The origin of Nat & Ross 06:58 — Corporate Dos & Don’ts 08:55 — Why they got canceled by 40M people 11:36 — The better feedback sandwiches 17:25 — “Thought Leading” on LinkedIn?19:40 — Who *really* are Natalie & Ross? 24:40 — Their first social videos 30:25 — Making a living as creators 35:05 — Should I leave my job? 43:40 — Individual Contributors vs Managers 48:32 — Corporate “Trickshots”57:55 — Is an MBA worth it? 1:04:55 — Promoted or Demoted 1:11:52 — Doing business with your Bestie 1:18:15 — Nat & Ross’ Corporate Takeaways Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Yetis, Nick and Jack from the studio here. But before we get into this one, we had just like a couple things we want to let you know about. This episode, it is delightful. It is hilarious. It is unfiltered. And as always, we rated a PG

because when we job in T-boy style, this is a family-friendly show, Jack. In this episode, we'll talk corporate do's and don'ts. We'll talk the difference between work and FERC. Yes. And we'll answer your questions about your sticky career situations. Oh, and Yeties, this is definitely one to watch.

Not just listen to. So I can invite over your best. You grab a non-alcoholic double-digit latte or a cabernet and get T-boy YouTube YouTube YouTube. You want to see this on the big screen right now. If you're listening in the car, that's great. Watch us later by clicking the link in the episode description to our YouTube channel. Because the dynamic of four people on the couch for this episode. I mean, this was insane, Jack. We almost ran out of microphones for this episode. I was holding onto my seat literally. Because Rob, was wearing such an epic suit. Was that crimson or was it burgundy? We need the link from him so that we can put it in the newsletter, by the way. Also, Natalie and I both had Sties in our eyes, which is like a medical thing we should disclose up front. You'll hear more about that on the show. No, but seriously, I was holding onto my chair.

I was laughing that hard. I thought it was going to fall off. So besties, make sure to check out Ross and Natalie on their podcast, demoted, and on social media. We linked their channels in the episode description. By the way, we refer to Ross as... Corp, his handle is corporate bro, and Natalie is corporate Natalie. They both have huge epic followings. And when you're done, let us know in the comments who you want our next business

bestie to be. Jack and I will get them on our next special episode. In the meantime, Jack, should we jump into this thing? Let's get into it. Let's hit it. For breakfast this morning, Nick had, he ordered a half-calf and he only drank half of it. Nick's a quarter-calf guy. Let me tell you, ask for a quarter-calf, they stare at, yeah. Yeah, they should. I got to make my own quarter-calf guy. A half-calf. Yeah, the continuity is going to see that little ice coffee. And again, the blue bottle people said, you can leave now.

And again, I drink what Nick doesn't. That's why I am who I am. Yeah, that's true. Jack, Jack will order a coffee and then he'll finish my half-calf. That's good. That's cute as though. Need all we can get here on the T-boy podcast. Hey, you've reached Nick and Jack at the T-Boy Hotline. We couldn't get to the phone right now, but you know what to do.

Leave a message after the beep. Leave a message. Ask us any question, and we will answer your question live on the T-Boy Hotline podcast. We'll get back to you. You know what's. to do. Yeties, our guest today are the king and queen of corporate.

They're the pros of performance reviews. Together, they have over 3 million followers on Instagram and TikTok. Because they're saying out loud what we're all thinking in our heads. One of them starred in a Dunkin commercial. The other was an extra in a Salesforce commercial. Although he also got his MBA from

Stan. True. We should point that out. We should point that out. If you want to know the best way to give feedback, they've perfected feed forward. And if you want to know the ideal time to quit. They'll tell you the exact time. Office bathroom etiquette, check. How to sell you this pen? Check. Because their full-time job is creating content to improve your full-time job. Or as they call it, corporate shenanigans with a side of career advice. So for this T-Boy Hotline episode on work, we are thrilled to have our guests, corporate Natalie and Corp, the host of the demoted podcast.

This is Nick. This is Jack. And this is the best hotline yet. Live from the couch, this is T-Boy. Hotlines. Let's hit it. I'm screaming into the mic. Are we good? I'm boring sweat. You're doing boring sweat.

You're doing really well. I want to just say, Ross and I, as you guys were doing that intro back and forth, finishing each other's sentences, we were sitting here, mouth agape just like in awe. I'm inspired. This is what we do. We love to whip that up. When I was a kid, I was a good, no idea I was going to become podcast host. There was no such thing as a podcast host.

I remember spending hours in, like, fifth grade writing essays trying to, like, come up with an intro for an essay. and then it became so fun, and now we get to do this every single day. It's a blast. It's a blast. We told people we're doing this post, but it feels like telling people you're a DJ.

My wife says now we're an entertainment. Oh, she does. You are. It's good. You are. My wife doesn't say that. It's a little ambiguous. But thank you for that intro.

That was amazing. We love doing it. Corporate King and Queen, we'll take it. We have loved following your guy's journey because it has been an insane journey from working at a job in corporate to side hustling a creator job, to full-time.

creators to this immense success. Now this hugely successful podcast demoted, Jack and I just loved following what you guys are doing. On your socials, I'm laughing 80% of the time, learning 20% of the time. And then on your podcast, it's the inverse. I'm learning 80% of the time laughing 20% of time. Really nice combinations.

I think they both are great problems. Incredibly generous overstatement, but we'll take it. We'll absolutely take it. We'll absolutely take it. Ross, how did you and Natalie meet? Just like every good relationship, a DM. A DM. That's where it all starts.

Natalie was doing her thing on TikTok, which I was being too boomer about. And you DM me one day. I don't remember exactly what you said, but... I think you said like, you single, you up? No.

I think it was a you up. No, it wasn't. But you've been doing corporate bro for way longer. So you had like, we joke that I stole your name and likeness by doing corporate Natalie. I mean... But then I realized we were both in San Francisco.

I was like, we have to collab. Yeah. We got to do it. And then we did and we did this business jargon romance thing that kind of popped off on us. And Natalie taught me how to... It was. Yeah.

It was. And Natalie taught me that you don't have to care as much about every little word in line. So then you guys were clavving and doing a post a week or whatever. When did you decide to launch a podcast? That was recently. A couple years, we've been talking about it. And it's, I mean, I can't believe we're walking in here how you do daily shows. Like, to get us to record.

1,500 episodes. That's insane. That is crazy. To get us together for one hour a week is a herculean task. Like, we can't do it. It's a full-time job. What if you're sick? How many hours a day do you work?

Well, speaking of sick, I heard we're both in recovery. Do you have a style? I was going to ask you what I was like, maybe it's a birth mark. Maybe he was born with that. No, no, no. And if you guys want to zoom in, I did, the imperfections, feel free. We've been doing the whole podcast from the right side. Thank you so much.

I didn't know they had iced caffeinated beverages here, and I didn't know either. You're not coffee guy. Do you see my style? I covered mine with makeup. I was going to, and then the doctor was like, it'll get worse. We could cut. I could give you some concealer. I know mine's, so it's growing.

Is there something in the water that we both got styes? I can't speak on it. It's a big pillar of my content, actually. My followers love my stye content. I know. I keep walking about your stye content. I'm like, oh my God, corporate Nalia. She is a stye too.

We're both in her cover. We're healing. You got to talk about it online. People love it. They'll never understand what we went through. I'm actually, they'll never get it. So guys, we're going to kick it off with kind of a fun, do's and don'ts conversation.

Okay. Great of corporate dues and don't. Right up your alley. Emails. A funny out-of-office email. For instance, I'll respond to your email when I've defrosted because I was north of the wall at Mount Treblon. Of course. Of course. Ross had a really great out-of-office when he went to Lisbon. Do you want to share that? It was all written in the verbiage of a pirate. It was like, it was something like, oh, matey, a corp be out to sail in the seven seas, charging me battery. I respond upon me return. and I hated myself for that. So are you a do or don't at this point?

Given that experience. Do as I say, not as I do. Sort of situation. Some pirates were offended. I think it's funny. I think it can be done well. I think it's funny. I'll be chilling pool side with a peanut collata.

Expect a delay in my response. I like that. I think it's clever. Or how about the European way, which is like your email has been deleted? Yeah, I am out until September. The Europeans are off for the whole summer. Big CESS. Absolutely.

I won't get back to you. Contact my assistant when I return to office. That's on you to find out when. Or you do the office inside joke where you say, in my absence, please contact,

and then you name like a colleague who hates getting contacted. That's funny. And then like everyone in the office is like, that was good. But like no one is going to get outside. Everyone externally.

Yeah. The internal joke works down. Well, people are always like if it's urgent, which it probably isn't, like please refrain from sending me anything. You know, there's like certain attitudes that can be attributed to it.

And a tasteful, funny one is, I appreciate it. Great. Pirates the way to do it. All right. Next up, we got meeting times. 8 a.m. Too early for a meeting? Also, too soon on the question?

I don't feel good. Too soon on the question? I thought you guys said it was a feel good pod. Just bring back the darkest hour of our life. Really stalled with edge. Why are we making you so uncomfortable right now? Context. For the Yeties, is it?

Yes. Sprinkled on for the Yeties. The besties and the yeties. We have two nicknames. Have you ever had 40 million people hate you? Have you ever woken up one day and realized you said something that 40 million people didn't like? Not yet. You're doing a good job.

You're doing a good job. It took us two episodes. To do that. You guys have done 1,500. Yes. And no one's been pissed. On your second episode, you said something that made 40 million people hate you? Yes.

What did you say? It wasn't on our bingo card. I'll tell you that. Would you like to take this one? We, there was, there's a lot of context needed. Long story short, we said, there's a new hire who said, I can't make the quarterly 8 a.m. meeting. I have a workout class. It should this be allowed. Someone wrote into our podcast. And we were like, honestly, no, you got to go to the quarterly meeting.

Go to the meeting. 8 a.m. You got to be it. We might have laughed. We might have laughed really hard in the face of the question. We did laugh. This poor, innocent soul who works on your team is, you know, having to give up the mental health and physical experience of a workout in the morning because you demand they be there at 8 a.m. prior to typical office hours. Yes. And we didn't demand anything, right? This was a submission to us. This is a submission that we're commenting on. And that was our opinion. And I think to this day, we stand by that opinion. I don't know.

That's, I'll say that. So 8 a.m. is an okay meeting time you're saying. I think they said 7 a.m. right? 7 a.m.? No, 8 a.m. Okay. Now, in sales, you take any meeting you can get. If someone wants to meet with me, I will meet them anywhere anytime.

So the context does matter. This was also like an international meeting where it was like meeting with the team in India. And it was like one of the few times at work. A lot of things, details were stripped away when the face value question was asked. Yeah, and you do social clips for the podcast. It was a social clip that ended up being our demise. The media took your response out of content.

Yes, yes. They did. Anyone who's working with the... They really did. Any publicity is good publicity, though? I mean, attention from 40 million people. That's pretty fantastic. The N.m. meeting was worth it.

There have been Wall Street Journal articles. Like, what's the ideal meeting time? The pinnacle of publications. Yeah, BuzzFeed. No, but now there's a big discussion of like, what is the ideal meeting time? And is ADM meeting okay? I started a conversation.

I think the ideal meeting time, by the way, is 11 a.m. Because everyone wants lunch, so that is an automatic hard stop without having to say it at noon. I would agree with you. For the purpose of our PR team who's sitting right there, we're going to have to say no to 8 a.m. meetings. If it's outside your scheduled work time, you should not have to work during that time unless you're being compensated. Can you put a text overlay on the screen too? We have a couple of disclaimers that are legal team.

Office of Corporate Natalie says hard now. By the way, the time's on things a good point. Because like for anyone who's worked with like website developers and Zealand, you know, like they're in next week right now, like whatever time zone that is. Totally. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

So it's tough. So in ballet is tough to pull off. That's what we're saying. The record's been corrected. What's next, next? Next. We always have and do. Next question is the compliment sandwich.

I love it. Promoted. Promoted. Really? Yeah. Because I see right through it. Yeah. I think 10 years ago, people are like, oh, I just got two comments.

I can handle that thing in the middle. That little corner, that little feed for it. But now you know, if someone opens with. You know something's coming down. Jack, your hair looks amazing today. I'm ignoring your compliment and thinking about what you're about to say to me next. But I love the hands. I think that's fair.

I think that's fair. That's funny. I'm really surprised you two are for the compliment sandwich. I mean, well, can you give us a... It's all about delivery. How would you land at, like, Simone Biles?

Oh, wow. Well, we're also in our huge affirmation seekers. So any time we can get two compliments, we'll absolutely take it. Yeah, we're utilitarian like that. Two is greater than one. Two is greater than one. They're token compliments. they're token.

These days... I'm sorry to tell you. The truth. It depends on who it's coming from. We did this whole episode on radical candor. It's like if I know the person loves me and like wants, like is doing it from a caring place, say anything to me. Say it as directly as you want. Just eviscerate me.

That's fine. I think I see a third circle here, which we can all find happiness with. Jack and you guys on the compliment sandwich. A compliment open face sandwich. So it's only one compliment. I like that. And one criticism. This is a good.

So that way it's more of an authentic compliment, which makes you happy, Jack. And you're still getting a compliment, Natalie and Ross. And yeah. I do the self-deprecation sandwich. I'll start with like, just before I give this feedback, I hate myself. Yeah. Okay. And I'm at fault for getting you this feedback.

Here's what you need to work on. This is a me problem. And at the end of the day, it's still a me problem. Yeah, yeah. Okay. Wait. I can't even do what I just told you that you should do. Guys, what about the compliment club sandwich, which is three compliments,

but two criticisms. I like it. The ratios are still working in your favor, and you're getting three compliments. That sounds like a PIP. But Ross wouldn't be able to give three compliments to anyone. I have never said three nice things that. Ross has said one nice thing to me, our whole relationship.

So that would be really hard. And I like, that's stumbled out of it. Yeah. It actually was kind of backhanded. That would be impossible. I have a question from the studio. What is some of the best feedback that you've gotten recently? Jack told me I had to fix my eye by this interview.

Get a hot compress. Stop being so humble. Well, no, not humble. Like self-deprecating. I joke about the self-de- but I have had to learn to just be proud of what I've done and like it's okay to be successful

and I don't have to always tear myself down. I think that's probably a woman problem. But I definitely have learned to like, I would meet a fan and they'd be like, I love your stuff. I'm like, shut up, no, you don't. Why do you watch that crap? Like, it's horrible and it would be,

it would actually like hurt my brand to not just be like, thank you so much. I love what I do. Own the success. Yeah. Next up, work from home camera on or off? On. Always on. On. Do you hate that? I do hate that. I go off. I go off. I go off. I take a walking phone call. Yeah, me too. I do it all the time. Well, that's totally fine. And that's established as a walking phone call probably, right? Like, do what you want. I kind of announce it. Sorry for the wind interference. It's because I'm on a walk, by the way.

Also, let's go back to pre-pandemic. Pretty much all those calls were not Zoom calls. They were off camera. They were phone calls. And so I feel like there's a context if you entered the workforce before the pandemic that you're more comfortable with phone. Great point. I had a bazillion conference calls in the prison. I used to just walk around Union Square in Manhattan taking calls without

doing a camera. Also, it is funny because all of us are like on camera all day, I'm kind of like, I kind of want to save my camera vibe for Jack. Oh, good. That's nice. That's so nice of you. That's like the one guy you could probably be off camera. Meanwhile, when Ross wants to chat, I'm like, you can send me a voice memo.

Send me Morse code Ross. And your camera's on and then their camera's off. You're like, oh. See, that's the thing. It feels a little bit disrespectful. Unless you're naming it and saying, hey, I'm really sick today, guys. Or I've got some reason why I need to be off camera. In fact, camera off is a predictor of people leaving a company.

Really? Highly likely to leave a company. That's a very interesting status. So it's more like in the group saying, if it's like one-on-one and, you know, whatever, you've got a good relationship. You're halfway quiet quitting if you're turning your camera. Yeah, you are. You are.

Or you're working on something. You're just doing something else. You got a mouse jiggler. We saw the telltale signs of a quiet quitting. Yeah. Included a lot of camera off. So camera off is quiet quitting. Camera off is quiet quitting.

Camera on is loud laboring. Yes. You thought was the opposite, which is when you're going the extra effort to like remind people that you're doing a whole lot of work that day. I love that. I agree. It's important also like in the new age

where you don't get a lot of face time with people. Like how you come off your nonverbal cues are important to how people perceive you. Totally. You know? If you're working from home, you know, you can't be the first.

point in the office. Unless you send an early slack message. So I guess you try to overcompensate with camera. On the other hand, Zoom fatigue is a real thing. Like, it is physically exhausting moving all those muscles in your face all day. I mean, Jack and I do it for two hours straight recording the show. And that's a lot of movement. So if you've like four or five calls and you're doing all of that movement in your face. Yeah. And I just resort to Botox personally. That's my kind of frozen for you. Yeah, it's frozen for you. So I don't have any facial movement. You actually warn people ahead. It's in the calendar invite. You're not going to see my eyebrows

It's not resting bitch face. It's just me. Sorry. It's just the... Preventative Botox. Preventative hair loss products. Yeah. Most genius marketing plays ever.

Suddenly your market went from not, you know, 5% of the country. It went to the entire country. Just in case. Also, corporate Botox would make so much sense because then there's less pressure to, like, have these emotional reactions to stuff on the business calls.

Right. Because no one's making any facial moves. We get a lot of questions about that. How do I change my facial expressions? Yeah. Botox. Well, don't. How about you just don't have?

I didn't go. Mitigate that right off the, right off the rip. All right last and final guys, thought leading on LinkedIn. Ross is the LinkedIn. This feels directly targeted. Ross is the LinkedIn guy. For Deo.

Humbled and honored to answer this question, Ross. Humbled and honored to answer this question. I think for the most part, most thought leaders on LinkedIn are full of it. And the people who are best at executing their job are busy executing their job. Wow. I do think there is advantages to having a strong brand on LinkedIn.

Okay. I'm just going to say it. It's the platform of the future. I'm sorry. More than any other social media. Like we're talking with two people who have millions of followers across social media, but LinkedIn is your bet. For working professionals, yes. And so what should you do if you're trying to build your brand on LinkedIn? Are you, you know, sharing your accomplishments or are you commenting on the news, both? What are you doing? I think it's like having a perspective on something that you're potentially an expert in. Something you know a lot about. I mean, everyone gets hung up on, what do I need to do? What do I got to post? I mean, I think it's just, and it's with any content being authentic to who you are and what your world is about.

And just taking a stance. I mean, there can be news stories and offer your opinion. So reacting to current. Reacting to things. You don't need to go on there. It's humbled and honored. Or your job. I mean, your work and your job is like so much of what you do and what you know.

And people are like, I want to be a content creator. I'm going to start with like posting. Where do I start? You don't have to start on TikTok and film yourself. You can just, write a written post on LinkedIn and like talk about your job. I think it's very easy, low barrier to entry. Have you seen the parties that some people host where they do a PowerPoint presentation sharing with their friends what they actually do for work?

Yes. Yes. He loves that. Hilarious. I haven't seen these next. Okay. So literally people will get together and they'll have a party where, you know, everyone will come over or they'll dinner and drinks. But each person also brings a PowerPoint presentation that explains what they do for work.

And then they present it to the entire audience of their friends at that dinner. And that actually is something I'd be great to post on LinkedIn because you realize that your buddies don't know what you do every day. No. No. Your parents too?

No. Yeah. Our parents don't totally get what we're doing all that. Radio, but on the internet. It's radio. Radio on the internet. Now a quick word from our sponsor. Well, the first thing we wanted to know from you guys

because we've been following you for so long is who are we actually speaking with an interviewing today? Are we speaking in interviewing with Ross and Natalie? Or Corp and Corporate Natalie. Tell us what it's like to have chosen a character who is your public persona. And how is that different from your actual selves? And ironically, a character that's all about the corporate world, which you guys also actually worked in. It's crippling.

We wake up every day. We're like, who are we? We're looking in the mirror. I'm putting my makeup on. I'm shedding a tear. I still don't know to this day. Yeah. It's like the Joker. It is.

It's a lot like the Joker. I think you want to start? No, no, Queen, please. Thank you so much, King. I think that for me, I play a lot of different characters and how I always talk about real Natalie versus corporate Natalie. I think for me, corporate Natalie started as,

we see a lot on TikTok, like the victim mentality and like very, we make fun of, oh my God, this sucks. Working sucks. Corporate sucks. We're working from home. This is horrible. And so a lot of the humor that I think my channel shows is like, I'm the victim.

And like, you know, screw big corporate. a thing. And I think the biggest difference between real Natalie and corporate Nautil is like, I actually loved climbing the corporate ladder. I worked really hard. I was in, licking corporate boot. Like, I was in consulting. Like, work was hard.

And I was early in my career and I was okay with that. I loved working eight hours away. Yeah, totally. I really enjoyed it. And so I think that's the biggest difference in I grapple with now is like, but the content that's relatable is like, screw corporate. But then in reality, I'm like, thank you corporate for giving me

corporate Natalie. So you started your character while, you were still working as full-time corporate Natalie. Yes, now I'm just a fraud because I don't work a full-time job anymore. Does that make, how does that feel like if you're putting out content, does that feel authentic or does it feel challenging or do you feel like there's a real element to it, even if it conflicts with the real version of you? Yeah, I mean, we're asked us all the time.

I think Ross and I both are entrepreneurs. We are on Zoom calls every day with our teams, with the brands we work with. We're still in corporate in some sense and we get these stories. And we also have followers who feed us content all the time of their day-to-day lives. So definitely feel like, yes, am I not going to the office nine to five every day? No, but like do I, you know, am I informed? You're not even just entrepreneurs. You guys are running a business.

Like when we had a call with your team to prep for this interview, like everyone was all hands on deck, four-person team, ready to go, notes, super organized. Yeah, it's corporate. I guess that term has almost like a darker, heavier element to it. But you're business leaders. And that's what you're doing. honored. I mean, thank you. Yeah, honored. I mean, we also believe in being professionals and when we

deal with brands or we deal with folks like you who are generous enough to bring you on your podcast, we want to show up and show out and, you know, bring it all there. So I think that's one of the things that I've noticed is this idea of being professional, although it's frowned upon, for us is kind of table stakes. And there's a lot of brands

who we work with creators and other folks who are like, yeah, they don't show up, they don't deliver these things. And we're like, what, that's an option? You can just like not do those things. Deliverable. And we had a deadlock. And we had a deadline. We are like corporate first, creator second. We came from the corporate world.

So some of those values were instilled. For better or worse, the trauma was definitely instilled. So you speak both corporate and you resonate with the employee. 100%. That's unique. Yeah, how is that unique position like helped you talk to brands and get deals?

I know you recently had the show where you interviewed a CEO to humanize that person in front of their employees, right? That was really interesting. I mean, I can speak from the sales perspective. My whole job was trying to reach out to executives and leaders and sell them things. So I think sales, just generally speaking, that skill set has translated to this. We're still reaching out to people. We're still trying to speak to leaders and speak on their level.

And that's, I think, more or less what led to us getting to work with Henry Shuck, the CEO of Zoom Info, and getting to interview them. We were able to take the somewhat childish approach of some hilarious, atypical questions that he would normally get as a CEO, but then also make commentary on their acquisitions and their stock price and what it's like to make difficult decisions as a CEO. So now your own boss is running your own business, and you've built an entire career off of videos. Really, the entire business that you guys have run

is off of these incredibly hilarious, relatable corporate videos that are making fun of the corporate world in a way that honestly we haven't seen since TPS reports an office space. If you haven't seen corporate Natalie on Instagram, she'll do a whole video about the inane small talk that happens before a Zoom conversation and how your boss says,

I'm actually just going to go on mute. Is that okay if we wait? Don't talk until the meeting starts. And then Ross will share getting a three on his performance review because, and I quote, nobody gets four or five. You have to get a raise. I felt so seen by that.

You have to get a raise. Yeah. So we were curious, because your entire career and all this huge growth and followership you guys began is based off videos. Like, what was your first video? When did you know that it was clicking and you'd found something?

My first video I was on Vine, six seconds. I was working at Oracle, and we used to wear these headsets that were wired. We didn't have Bluetooth back then. You would forget you were wearing... You look like a helicopter pilot. Honestly, yeah, you're wearing... You look like a helicopter pilot.

Roger that, Yusin, Yusin. Yeah, and you take it off. You put it on your neck and you're typing whatever, and someone says, hey, you want to go grab coffee or grab lunch, and you say, yeah, I do. And you stand up and it just chokes. It clothes lines.

You know, I was like, why are we not? We got to talk about this. Or the chair that leans back too far. You know, that split second, you're going to die. Oh, God, I don't fall, but it doesn't. You know, like those little things that would just happen every day. Yeah. I need to see some of those vines.

That's hilarious. I look very different back then. I'm sure. I'm sure. I still hope in my eyes. A little twinkle. My first video was a day in the life. I was consuming content on TikTok and seeing these, like,

gorgeous hot influencers waking up and like I drink my matcha I meditate I do my daily affirmations I'm like I wake up one minute before my alarm sprint to my desk like I am miserable I'm trying to make my bed look presentable I eat a slice of cheese in between meetings

so I like I flip the trend on its hut and then it got a lot of views So you're creating video content that is just relatable to everybody who has a job absolutely it's just a like you guys said we're saying what everybody's thinking This idea of professional to me was always so, such a farce.

And I know I mentioned some of the behaviors of being a professional. I still stand by those, but this idea that we don't bring our true selves to work. Like, we're all thinking these things. We're doing these absolutely outrageous. I was working in this building all salespeople, 4,000 salespeople across the street from the beautiful campus that Oracle has. You can see from the freeway. And everybody was 20 to 40, selling million-dollar deals to Fortune 100 companies, and nobody knew what we were selling. Nobody understood what we were doing.

Yeah. Everyone's wearing poorly fitted clothes. The place smells like a locker room. And I was like, why has nobody told me that this exists? Yeah. Until now. Now I'm living it. I'm in business development.

I didn't know what that meant. Totally. I just showed up and had to make cold calls. I was like, oh, this is life. This is what I got to do now. Yeah. So I just wanted to, I don't know, it was catharsis for me because it was tough and miserable and made me feel better.

And I think Ross and I are both like entertainers at our core. Yeah. We like to say we're the midlars of the dinner table. Like we'll always, you know, tell the jokes, the story. So it's not far off for us to like want to be in front of the camera. I think a lot of people are like, I want to be a creator. Like, I want to do this. We're like, do you like filming yourself?

Do you like, like, because we are so into it. Do you have shame? Do you have shame? Are you okay being hated? Because we had to put that all aside. Yeah. Nobody hates us more than us, though. We like, nobody hates us more than us.

But we like it at our core. What were the inflection points where you realized you're not just a midler who can entertain the table? You're not just a relatable worker, but like, you could maybe make money off this. I mean, the brand deals. Give us a Dell story. were crazy. The first one. The first one of the first was Dell. I don't know if you've heard of that. It's like a small like startup. Dude, you're getting a Dell deal. And I was working. They were like, we saw your computer as a Dell laptop. And I, I screenshot the email. I sent it to my parents. I'm like, is this fishing? Like I'm worried about clicking on this. What's happening? And I ended up partnering with Dell on like a huge deal that just changed my life. And I partnered with them for three years. And I just like couldn't believe.

that I was working with this company that they wanted to work with me. And I think they, when Ross and I started, Ross started earlier, but in 2020, you're realizing these like B2B partnerships and influencer partnerships. And that's what we kind of frame ourselves as as B2B influencers. And so we were able to work with these big companies with bigger budgets. And we were like, wow, this is a job. We can make money on this. So Dell would be my kind of first aha moment. I didn't do an ad for about five years. And that was a choice. So you hadn't monetized your following, but you were just focused on the content? I was just focused on the content.

So part of it was I played independent minor league baseball for two years out of school. And as soon as I was getting paid to do it, it was a lot less fun. I was playing for my job every time I did. Every time I pitched, I was like, if I fail, I could get cut by the coach as soon as this game's over. And that was not as fun. And as soon as you're making branded content and things that don't feel true to the artist in your soul, it feels like you're going against the grain. It feels inauthentic. Yeah.

And so I was nervous to do it. But eventually I got over the hump. I sold out super hard. You know, I'm doing ads for Salesforce. I mean, now I am, now I'm 100% corporate bro. No, not really. But, you know, it's been kind of a journey getting over that, realizing that there's an opportunity. I think we can totally relate to that.

You know, Jack and I always talk about the rich first king mantra of like you can be rich or you can be king on certain things. King is having a full control and autonomy over everything you do. But you might not be able to make money that way. Rich is you take a deal. but it comes with strings attached and now you have to follow certain rules. We like going the king route and having control because we also think

that monetization follows great content. And that if you focus on the monetization too early, the content is off. It's headed in the wrong direction. But if you focus on the content first and make that great content, the monetization does follow. The rich follows the king.

Our inflection point was similar. We wrote our daily email newsletter as a side hustle for two years without having an ad deal. We literally were both working at banks, and then Jack and I, we would email each other at the end of the day about what stories we were going to cover in the newsletter, and we turn it white because we're like,

they're not going to notice if we email each other in white text. No way. Stop it. So they're like, why is it? That's like invisible ink, and then you have to highlight it to see what you're up. Every day after the markets close you, send a blank email to your buddy, Jack. I think the worst part was my boss would walk behind me and be like, why is Jack looking at a blank screen?

I'm getting really excited. Oh, yeah. This is a good story. All right. So anyway, we had an advertiser approach us, just like you, Natalie. And that made the decision easy for us to come clean to our bosses to declare the outside business activity with compliance. We got to prove for all that.

Yeah, we did. It grew and grew. Do you feel like, I mean, Ross and I still talk about to this day, like when we say we're influencers or content creators or podcasters, whatever it might be, people are like, what? I feel ill. How do you make ends me? I feel ill.

And it's like, there is money in this role. Having influence is a number one tool. That's why Molly says we're in entertainment because she's like people. always say like, oh, they can make a career out of podcast? And she's like, yeah, they're like, kind of a good one. Yeah, yeah. It must be a lot on you, Molly. But yeah, the entertainment's kind of left it in big U.S.

and like a kind of generic Hollywood element. Let's say that. Let's say we're in entertainment. I like that. I like this a lot too. Because I always say I host a daily podcast with my buddy Nick. And they're like, oh. Yeah. When you're throwing, yeah, I'm doing with my best friend Jack. They're like, that is so cute. Totally. Yeah. Your roommate.

Oh. It's like, oh, charitable work? It's like, no, it's a full-time job. Jack likes it a lot. I think the fact that all of us, you know, created for years before ever making any money speaks to a crucial decision point for people thinking about creating, which is you must have more than just financial incentive. If you're just doing it to try to make money, the chances are you're not going to make

money because everyone can post something. Yeah. We always be a creator before an influencer. That's a great way to put it. Great way to put it. And even for us, when we wrote our daily email newsletter, like I believed it was making us smarter about the markets. We're better now because we're more intelligently at work. Would impress clients because I knew what the Fed was up to. Yeah.

So we love doing it. Like there's that warden study about how grit being the most critical element of success. Yeah. It was grit producing every day. Like we say, consistency consistently delivers. Yeah. But like, we also love doing it. And that was key.

So it was grit and a love of doing something. And the videos you were creating, you must have gotten joy out of like seeing your buddy's reactions and the comments. Oh, that's been so satisfied. That's the reason to do it. I was prepping for this interview and I was like reminiscing on the first videos and I was like, I remember loving this. Emotional R-A-I. I remember when this was so fun and fulfilling and it still is, but it's a job now more so. And so like it's rarely, we'll have that one video that we're like, God, we loved making that.

And like, those are the precious moments. But when I was first starting, everything I made, yeah, and then no one watches it. Everything I made, and when I was first right now, I just brought me so much joy. Remember, if a video doesn't perform, it wasn't us. It wasn't you. It was the algorithm. It was the algorithm. It was the algorithm.

It was the algorithm. Every time. It'll probably blow up. Totally. It's all about timing. It's like, for me, was, I would do it nights and weekends. And so I would get whoever, and even still in most of my videos, it's friends and family. Whoever's willing to come to an office with me on the weekend or a night.

Yeah. You know, and I got kicked out of offices. I, you know, had to solicit the fans of who's got an office I can film in. And, you know, it was a weird. it was a weird journey back then doing it on the side. My employer was like, we're going to allow you to film here. But you need to explain like what is this. Got the HR walk around the park.

One of the first times we filmed together, Ross was like, okay, me 8 a.m. Saturday in this office. I'm like, hang on, I'm hungover. I'm 23 years old and I went out last night. So that's going to be hard. Ross, whose wedding was it that you recorded that video about my cousin sales? Okay. So did you have to discuss with your cousin?

Like, hey, I know you're getting married, but I'm going to film a bunch of viral videos. Well, she was like, coming about corporate life. We're here. We're paying for the venue. Might as well, get something out of it. You know? It's like, well, wedding, sort of part of that.

It's actually a write-off now that you've recorded all that content. The whole thing, yeah. I mean, it was. I wrote off the plane plane. You're like, I'm expensive. I did. I did. We're running a business here.

Quick, how do I make this about me? Well, guys, fortunately, we have an awesome group of Yeties and Bessies who you've gotten to know. And they have sent in some questions specific to corporate life for us to answer. And our awesome creative director, Rachel, is going to whip up for us. Actually, funny detail we should point out, for all of the hotline episodes we've done, where we do Q&A with the audience, everyone loves sending in audio messages. Because with audio messages, it's great. We hear the fans and we love getting them on the show. So we have all these great

voices we get on the pod. But it's funny because this one's about like work and it's a little more sensitive. People want it to be more anonymous. So really we don't have many audio messages. You should hear our voice submissions. We get no audio messages. We ask our fans all the time. And that's probably, that's the exact reason. They're nervous. This next question, is from an anonymous writer. We'll call him Daryl. I would love your advice on a tough situation at work. The new VP has asked me to leave three times and until she got here, I've had zero negative feedback. Since the deal I had committed for this quarter got pushed and exporter, she's questioning my abilities. She's saying that three levels of leadership and my client all feel the same way.

I have two options, except a severance package or face a PIP. She's made it clear she doesn't want me here. What would you do in this situation? Thanks for the help, guys. So let's start by defining a PIP here, because this is a question. about someone who their manager thinks they're underperforming and they disagree and now they may be put on a pip. Pip, performance improvement plan. Yes. Often a death sentence.

Yeah, this is the court. Can you explain for us? Yeah. Sprinkle on some context. Yeah. So in sales, and these do exist in other functions, but oftentimes a pip is basically your last chance. You'll agree on some metrics, some numbers that you need to hit.

And if you don't hit them, you're gone. And that way it's not a surprise to you. It's not a surprise to the company. it's also a really good way to not get paid severance. Yeah, it's kind of CYA, right, for the company, because then they feel like they've given you the warning that a layoff could come. Yeah, CYB, cover your booty. Yeah, and at the end of the day, most people do not survive PIPs,

and those who do, I mean, this VP sounds like they're being very honest. They don't want them there. That's a problem. Yeah. I'm out. I'm using, you could take the PIP and then spend time interview, and that's what I normally tell people if you're going to take the PIP, but oftentimes, you know, what's that sevy looking like?

So your advice to Daryl is if your VP thinks you've got to go and it's either you take the severance package or take a pip, they should go. Most VPs aren't that honest, and that's a very nice thing that they're doing as savage as it is. That's very transparent. It's very transparent. So, I mean, if you're not wanted there and your VP is, chances of you moving up, slim.

I mean, unless you suddenly turn around, you're closing a bunch of business and you're the top dog, then you get away with anything and everything. I mean, they're being honest. What do you think? Take the severance package. Get out of there. I mean, my worst nightmare is not being welcomed or wanted in an environment.

Like, girl at the dinner table who were all like, oh, God, why'd she come? Get me out of there. I don't want to ever be that person. And if you're getting that transparency and your boss doesn't like, like, want you there, get out. Is there any potential, it sounds like Daryl is saying everyone at the company, he believes, actually likes him.

And it's kind of just like his boss. is there any getting around the boss? Any redemption option? Or is there any like, you know, I think Daryl said he went to HR and didn't go anywhere, but is there any ally that he can seek in the company before taking the seventh pack and getting out of there and seeing if there's any way to get reassigned or... I mean, if it's your VP, it's going to be real hard to go around your VP because that's probably his boss's boss's boss.

So, I mean, you can have those conversations, you can be proactive. I think at the end of the day, you're going to be transitioned out. one way or another. So it's how do you build a really positive brand on your way out so that people have your back so that people will give you letters of wreck that might introduce you to someone else and you can kind of blame it on a poor situation versus your lack your lack of your home. And what did you say? It's harder to rebrand or it's harder to change someone's perception of you. Yes. It's nearly impossible. It's nearly impossible. So get out like pivot to a new role. Yes. Great point. Perception is really hard to change. Absolutely. Really hard.

Yeti actually sent us something from an earlier hotline episode that kind of works here. they mentioned that at Fidelity, there was someone who'd a concept that we kind of rebranded to the three L's, but basically if you're in a job and you're not learning, laughing, or leaving a mark, you don't want to be there.

And maybe for Daryl, it's time to think about, hey, am I learning? Am I laughing? And am I leaving a mark? Am I contributing? Because if I'm not, then maybe it isn't the right place

for me in three years. And then why am I there right now? It sounds like he's not getting any of those three else. Yeah. And if he takes the severance package, he'll have some financial runway to come up with his story, update his resume, describe why he's leaving the previous job. Yep.

And unemployment rate's super low. There's lots of great jobs out there. Also from the manager's perspective, great job pointing out that that was awesome transparency from the VP on like what's going on. Because I remember when I was at my lowest working in finance, before Jack and I got to have this incredible job together, I like had a mid-20s crisis, not like a mid-life crisis, but I turned 25 and I'm like, I'm in a job in finance.

I don't like. I don't know what I want to do. Friends are going to business school. I haven't even taken a GMAT yet. Like, I don't know what to do. And a manager sat me down and did not give me that transparency. They were like, you're not happy. And I was like, I don't know how to respond to that.

Oh, I'm not. The crying, was that the giveaway? I got defensive. I think I was like, no, I am happy. I am happy. I love this job. I'm happy. I don't want to do these spreadsheets anymore.

And so the transparency from that VP is awesome. If I worked at a bank and the VP had been that transparent, I still would have left, but I wouldn't have been as upset as I was in my mid-20s. Just to stand up for Daryl for a second. He seems to believe that it's undeserved. It may be. It may be.

I want to point out that he said my VP, the client, and at least three other people. So it's not just one personal vendetta. I do want to say that about Daryl, but continue. you. Sorry. Continue to stick up for Daryl. I didn't hear a lot of business being closed either. I heard like the one deal that was sort of hinging a lot of things pushed a quarter, which does happen. Yeah. But unfortunately, the reality is in sales, you are your number. Okay. And if you don't have a track record at that place, the company, whatever, you're, it's hard to overcome. Okay. You're winning cures all in us. Stick up for Daryl just in case, so we don't get canceled again. No. To stick up for Daryl, you can just have a boss who just doesn't like you. Yes. And that sucks. And it's,

not going to work out at the company. We work for bosses, not for companies. We work for people. That's a great lot. You either need to find a new boss of the company, which probably won't happen unless you somehow find a reassignment. Or you got to get out of that. What was the example you were showing with me earlier? Well, Nick and I, at

Robin Hood, we had a boss who we just did not get along with. They didn't understand what we were doing. Because remember, Nick and I were acquired as a media company, joining a FinTech company. So we were surrounded by FinTech people, trying to explain to them how media worked. Yeah. And we persuaded a lot of people about, you know, how to grow the audience and gain trust and open rates are key.

And we're going to make a typo here and there. But we're going to correct them. We actually have a really good, like, no type of rate. And this word choice does matter, and we do want to spend 20 minutes choosing it. But our boss just did not understand, and we were really struggling for a while. We did a lot of work to try to educate about the media that we were working on and the newslet and the podcast that we were running. ultimately we hit like a loggerhead and we were getting our own performance review. We knew we were going to get bad performance reviews.

Like we preempted this VP PIP or severance option. But then Nick and I gave her performance review to our boss. Yeah, countertacked. And we honestly just put it all out there. Knowing that their boss would read it. Knowing that their boss would read it. So again, I'm talking to Darrell, who thinks that the VP is unjustly giving them. if there's an opportunity to speak up to somebody else in the company, as long as it's not

going to kill your chance for a severance package, for Nick and me, we had a new boss three months later and we got promoted. No way. And we got a big budget to build a new podcast studio. It was like, it was pretty inspiring. Also, like, I really felt great about what we pulled out. Also a cool thing. I mean, Jack and I are lucky because we were best friends working on the same thing together,

but that transparency, there is power in employees kind of coordinating a little bit. Like you and I coordinated. We did. And you bring the evidence. A lot of what we say is like, don't just complain about, I want a better lifestyle and I'm not making enough money.

Or like I, you know, I don't like going into the office, whatever to say, I'm actually really productive working from home. Great point. I've,

I've closed this deal. I've done this project internally. Like, bring the proof points so you're not just whining. You're actually coming with evidence, which I'm sure you guys did. I would have loved to see. The performance review came up.

What you said? Bring solutions, not a problem. Absolutely. be a problem solver. Thank you so much, Daryl, for the question, and I love this feedback. This question is from an anonymous writer. We'll call him Dmitri.

How do you think of them? I love these names. Baby names from 1980. From 1980, Bulgaria. Eastern Europe. She's been watching too much Olympics. We'll call them Dmitri. Dmitri, on the hot job.

I'm currently an individual contributor and waiting for about a year for my promotion. Recently, there have been quite a few changes in management, leaving a manager position empty. In the future, I want to be a people manager and not an individual contributor. Should I jump and take this opportunity and throw away three years of work? Or should I wait, get promoted, and get a higher management position? I appreciate your thoughts, besties. Okay. First, let's distinguish between individual contributor and manager. Yeah, how do you see the difference, Natalie? Individual contributor, you can do your work. You're not in a ton of meetings. You just are, like, I was that at Deloitte. I was just making power points every week. And like, I was, I was doing

the work. Management, you have people below you. You have to do performance reviews. You have to care about their well-being. You literally have to care about those people, which is, remember their birthdays. Which is frustrating. No, Ross, what I miss. Can you define it?

No, I mean, like, yes, you're exactly right. Individual contributors, they're doing the granular work. Managers are managing a bunch of people who are doing the granular work. You are there to empower the people to do their work and make them, make your team better than the sum of its parts, and, you know, different people need different things and making sure they're getting those things. Individual contributor, you worry about yourself. Right.

And the stuff you need to get done. So if I was understanding this correctly, is this, is Dimitri, Big D, um, trying to leave the company for another IC role or are they going for a different management role? Demetri wants enough they should pursue an individual contributor role or a management role. Making the jump into management is a hard thing to do with no experience. It's like, how do I get that experience without getting the opportunity? I would always take the role. If that's the step in the direction I want to go in the long run,

I absolutely take that role. I learn some new things. I learned management. Agreed. I want to do a quick analogy to describe individual contributor versus manager. I would love to go to an analogy. Whip it up, Jack. Tom Brady is an individual contributor.

Bill Belichick is a manager. I want to point that out because when Nick and I were a lot of them, this is good. I know you're going to say. Managers really had an element of superiority complex, I would say. Yeah. And there was a sense. Everyone felt it.

that the managers were like, that's what you wanted to become. But I just want to point out, Tom Brady made more money than Bill Belichick. Great point. And if you're a top performer doing the core thing of the company, like the designers at Apple

who are designing the iPhone, like that is an individual contributor. Yeah. The engineers at Meta, those are individual contributors. It is not a second tier of role. No, it is not. I love being an individual contributor.

We host our podcast and produce our show. We once had an opportunity to become manager, we would have had to stop producing our show. Not a chance. That was going to happen. I think good managers do give the ICs glory. And they should.

And I prefer to say Steve Kerr versus Steph Curry. Real impact. And that is how I describe it. I'm actually a Giants fan. My brother's going to kill me from Engine of Tom Brady. Well, I think it is interesting because in sales, it's a little more obvious. The best salespeople make the most money. And the people who manage them make a lot less.

Interesting. Right. And so if you're excited by helping people maximize their potential, then you want to go into management. It should be more selfless. It should be about gassing up your, you know, your ICs because at the end of the day, if they do well, you look good. But it is a completely different skill set, as you mentioned.

Natalie, on the creator side, do you feel like you can be both a manager and an individual contributor? Absolutely, for sure. And I think the point you made of you can be both. And the managers I love the most in my career have been the ones that roll their sleeves up and get some work done. They're like, let me take that. Let me build that PowerPoint now.

I'm like, oh, my God. Thank you so much. Like, you can actually do work too. You don't just delegate as a full-time job. Great point. Inspiring. Yeah. It is.

Wasn't Dara, the CEO of Uber? Didn't he drive Uber's for like a good stint? I think he was like building the Ford. Alleged to Toyota Camry's. Allegedly he was hopping in the car. Driving a little bit. No, that's a great point. To be a great manager, I think you should know what you'd be contributing a bit.

You'd be contributing a bit. Yeah. And not just know what they do, but have done it yourself. Absolutely. There is one distinction, though, because a lot of top sales reps will be horrible managers. A lot of great players, you know, you talk about it in professional sports. A lot of the best players are terrible managers.

It's the players who are not that good who learned how to coach and learned how to manage and those ended up being the most successful. Yeah, it's just the sales manager who's made a cold call and knows how to do that, right? Would love to have one of those. It would love that. The VP who's still cold calls? You kidding me? That'd be wild.

So do it the Michael Scott way. Be a salesperson first and then become the manager of the salespeople. Everything's sales. My favorite comment I get on my video sometimes is female Michael Scott. I mean, that is my goal in life. Like, I am honored. I am honored. All right, Rachel, what's next?

Third question, what we got, Rach. This next question is from Jack's eye in New York City. What's your corporate trick shot? What is your corporate trick shot? Jack, can you whip up a definition there, please? A corporate trick shot is a hack in the workplace or in your career that has no or little cost, but can have huge upside. So my corporate trick shot is, I think three of us went to business school. Natalie, did you go to B-School?

No, sorry, boys. School, hard knocks. So secret to people. I learned by doing. Natalie's managing us. I dropped down. Anyway, secret to business school is that, at least at Michigan, we spent a huge amount of time where everyone was just practicing pitching their personal story.

Like basically their elevator pitch. Yeah. And we spent almost like selling yourself. It sounds like. We practiced selling ourselves and like boiling down our career story and what we're looking for in our careers into something less than two minutes. We wrote it. We edited it. We sought peer reviews of it.

We practiced it, practiced it, practiced it, practiced it. So my corporate trick shot is just figuring out the story that feels good about you in your career, taking pride in that story, figuring out a narrative that makes you feel good about yourself. Yeah. So that you're excited to tell people about it. because at corporate events, in the hallways, in the bathroom, you'll have the opportunity where you meet somebody, and it's like you just need to have that story in your back pocket

and be pumped to tell it because that will be a way that you advance your career. Low cost, high return, that's the trick shot. Low cost investing in your personal story, high return, that sells you in a way that gets you that dream job or that dream funders. And you have to love your story. If you feel uncomfortable about your story or like anxious that it doesn't sound good, Make it up. Change the story.

Is that where you were going? That's not where I was going. Round up. Round up. Find a different path about your story that fits the goals that you're looking for and that you feel good about. I love that. A delight that I always say like that one time you're in the elevator with a partner, like be ready for it. I was never in an elevator or with a partner.

So I don't know when I mean. It was a one-story building. Do you have a corporate trick shot? That is sadness embodied, though. Sales are dope never ever stopped selling. All things, everything. Sorry, can you tell sadness again? Because I noticed it's on your LinkedIn account.

Yeah. So sadness is my mantra, which is similar to ABC, always be closing, which is sales are dope, never ever stop selling. Sadness, that is, you're always selling. Always be closing. And what better to sell than yourself? Than yourself. Exactly. I think my trick shot is building relationships that are also outside of your purview.

So I would go get lunch with people on the marketing team, with the engineering team, the product team, even though I was in sales. And building those relationships actually opened up a lot of resources for me. When I needed something, you have to go to proper channels. No, I'll just walk over to their desk. They're my friend. And I can get things.

And I can be more efficient. And so, I mean, at the end of the day, everything's a relationship. You're going to have lunch every day. You might as well have it with somebody. Yes. And it doesn't have to be the same, you know, your BFF at work.

You can diversify that a little bit. Yes. And you just learn a lot more about a business. It makes more well equipped. understand what everything everything going on. Mine also has to do with networking. Yeah. I think there's a lot of like virtual coffee chats, networking.

Like you're always told like have your rolodex of people and build your network. And it's like a little cringy. And I think one tip for when people now like I have calls with people or I have a call with a mentor, I always say give to get. So if you're taking their time 30 minutes out of their day to pick their brain, I want to pick your brain. That's what we always say. Come with something. Hey, can I help you with anything? You're meeting with a content creator.

I have these ideas for your channel. Someone asked me to be their mentor. And I was like, okay, that's a big ass. Like, who are you? You're a random person. And they're like, I have all these ideas for your page. I'd love to talk to you and share them with you. I'm like, okay, Samantha, would love to meet you.

Let's set up time. Like, give a little bit, what are you working on? Any projects I can help with. Every time I join a call with someone where I'm picking their brain, I'm like, let's save five minutes at the end. I want to tell you anything you want to do with influencer marketing. I can connect you with influencers, anything you want. That helps them find value in it too.

Cool. Bring value. Give in order to get. Give in order to get. Don't be a taker. Okay, corporate trick shot. You know how in Italy the mafia is known as Cozanostra? Yeah. It means our thing in Italian. It means our thing. I didn't know that.

It's our thing. Cozanooga. Cozanoza. Like dark house or dark night. I guess that does make sense. The limited Spanish, I know works there too. Well, in the same way that they have our thing, a trick shot in the corporate world is to have your thing.

Have one thing that you're known for in the office. That's a small thing. It doesn't cost you much. But you'll notice that in office culture, people like to brand you as something. And if you can feed that narrative in an authentic way, it builds you up in the community in a high return way. Oh, you need a personality.

Go to net. Right. Be a single point of failure. The company would not go on in that way if you left. Totally. That's good, too. When I worked at Endeavor, so we would travel, we'd meet with startups around the world, we were constantly traveling, and I was known for bring back kind of sweets from all these countries.

Sweets guy. Yeah, exactly. And I do honestly, like, every weekend I'm having a Susie cakes. I'm making cookies, and I love having desserts. And it became a thing at work. It was like, oh, if it's someone's birthday, just defer to Nick on where we should get the cupcakes from that day. Sprinkles are we doing magnolia? And I would kind of become that go-to.

And within the company, that cupcake enthusiasm kind of got me to introduce to a little bit. Introduced to a lot of people, including the CEO. Stock price was... Totally. Direct correlation of cupcakes. Nick, you're eating cupcakes every day and you look like this. I would love any tips and tricks. You need it's like one bite of the cupcakes.

Got it. Got it. He gives us a rest of it. throws it away. I'm also a high icing to cake ratio, guys. So I'll take the icing and I give the cake to Jack. It's a nice reciprocal relationship. But Natalie, I heard you chirp in that become a single point of failure.

That's not what Nick's a great line. Nick, you're kind of talking about, like, networking-wise or like, office culture-wise, have your thing. Become normal. Do you mean like find a role that the company needs done? Yeah. That only you can do. Definitely.

And I think I don't want to say you have to be an engineer that has a specific skill set or you can code in this language. That would be ideal that like they need you in that way. But it can also be something like you know everyone's birthday in the office and you are the person we go to. And like it doesn't have to be technical. But I did this thing business continuity when I first started my career that was like identifying single points of failure. The dude who knows all the passwords. We got to share those out. Like if he gets hit by a bus, the company's,

crumbling. I said that about Jacqueline at the bank I worked for. She knew everything. I was like, guys, this is such a risk. You know, I was actually telling her she should like ask for a raise because she has so much power at this company.

Totally. That was Stephanie at my last. That's a great goal. In fact, you should put that on a resume. I was the single point of failure at blank institution for all the blank. I like that. Value.

So I was like the one American guy at my bankneck who spoke German. And so I didn't speak that good German at the time, but I spoke enough that my German, like, relationship managers could bring me the interpreter. Just in case there was like an American at the meeting. Yeah. Nice.

I could sort of like entertain him. Yeah. It was a very like token roll. Jack, talk to him about the Yankees. But no, it got me into a room with BMW, which was awesome. I never would have gotten in that meeting. On the flip side of that, don't say you have skills in Spanish. If you don't abla, poquito as fine.

because they will ask you. You want to be conversational for sure. You know, it's a funny financial trick shot I actually saw the other day because we're talking about work. We're talking about corporate life. So we could mention Adam Grant, who's like just a great, brilliant mind, the business school professor. And he had this great concept he shared that is backed up by research about pebbling.

Pebbling is this concept that penguins do where they share a little pebble with each other and it makes the other penguins happy and keeps them closer in it as a community. And they tend to succeed and live long. younger as penguins, partially because of this pebbling thing. They each give each other a little pebble. And he said, the equivalent in the work world is to share memes and just fun small things with your colleagues, which seems meaningless when you send a funny meme via Slack to a buddy, but that's actually building a level of connection that makes everyone feel better

about office work and then contributes to a better work. We're pebble makers. I love that. Well, we make pebbles. I was going to say, share our videos. Yeah, no, that's true. We're going to link in the episode description about it. Jack, you and I kind of toss each other pebbles all day.

Yeah, we do. You guys are, yeah, throwing rocks, bolgers at each other's heads. Are you guys going to do the very end? We're going to give you guys three minutes back in your day. Like your hero. Like your absolute heroes. 57, look at that. We're going to get you on out of here.

We're welcome. And we will thank you profusely. You know, one person's going to be like, one more thing. Yeah. I don't know why it's so funny. You said, we're going to get you on out of here. That is exactly what every, like, meeting leader says. Give you the gift of time.

Couldn't have asked for anything else. Thank you. It's so simple, but I can't stop laughing. This question is from Tim in Germany. Should I pursue an MBA? I'm a huge fan of the podcast, and I hope you have a live show in Germany or Europe one day. I've been working in a software engineer for the past seven years.

I've been considering getting an MBA because I would like to have the qualification requirement to become sea level and for the expected pay raise. Is an MBA worth it? I'll leave this to the students. To broaden this for a second, before we're getting to the NBA part, this is kind of a when to jump question about should I leave for an MBA, should I leave to start a company, should I leave to a new thing. Just a quick thought on just any kind of when to jump moment. An interesting rule of thumb could be a one, three, six rule of like one month, three months, six months. So if you're still thinking about the idea after one month, it's a valuable idea. You should go a little further with it and go to work on it. Let it marinate. Yes. And once you've been working on it for three months, three months is kind of like a side hustling thing outside work. If you still have that momentum and it's gone to a better place, that means you're ready to leave. So at the six month mark, you should probably move on to that exciting new thing. Could be business school, could be a

company, but a helpful way for like when to jump moments is kind of that one month, three months, six months. I still interested. Am I still working on it? Am I ready to leave my opportunity? I love that. A lot of times I'm like, let's just sit on the idea and see if we still feel the same way in a week. But like one three six is much more sense. That's great. Those are nice round numbers. Do you guys want to talk about the NBA or should I kind of jump in? No, but you can jump in right. I have nothing to say.

You guys all. But there's also the not pursuing an NBA, which is also part of the question. I'll be honest. I think if your career is going well, don't go to the kid. Don't get the NBA. If your career feels like it's in a rut, NBA is an option, an expensive option, but it's going to open up doors for you. You'll meet a ton of new people.

You'll gain new skills. You'll have fun for two years. you'll be really busy. You'll part of your butt off. A lot of beer pong. Really expensive trips. You'll play beer pong again for the first time in 10 years. It's definitely an option to kind of jumpstart, kickstart your career.

But it's very expensive and it takes time. So if there are other paths to furthering your career that aren't an MBA, they're definitely worth looking at. I think there's also a misunderstanding of MBAs because my MBA experience in yours, they were totally different from our classmates. Like you and I were side hustling a company we'd already started and already monetized through business school. So like I'd be in Philadelphia doing class four days a week, then I'd hop on a train, come up to New York, see my fiance,

meet up with Jack at the New York Stock Exchange, and do like a TV interview for our company. And that was our MBA experience. And what I loved about it was that my classmates were totally understanding and so supportive. And it's not nearly as competitive as you think. And I think for my business school experience, it was like it set Jack and I up in a cool way to pursue our dream further,

which we now get to do every day. That's a fair point. Everything I just said about like beer pong and all that, if you had like, you know, I had classmates who had kids. Yeah. I had classmates who had jobs. You have different experiences, yeah. I had classmates who had like loved ones that needed care.

There are other ways than just replaying your undergrad life. Yeah. It doesn't have to be that way. Yeah. I mean, for me, I went, like you said, I was in a rut. I wanted to learn new skills. I felt like I had maxed out and said. I could go sell anywhere or anything,

but I didn't understand how a business ran and it's, you know, in a holistic sense. And I just, I knew what I didn't know. I knew I needed to learn something. I think in this, from this standpoint, this person said they wanted to be a C-suite, which you don't need an MBA to do, especially if you start a company

and want to be the CEO. You've got the skills. I mean, if the goal is to open up other doors or learn certain things, I think then maybe that's the reason to go. But I'd probably want to ask a few clarifying questions on, what this person wants to do. Tim probably wants a yeah or a nine.

Yeah. Probably does. It's always complicated. But I'm glad you said you're in a rut because I think that is a confession. Like business school students, they say, why did you go to business school? There's always like a glorious kind of, like we said earlier, you practice your story. Yeah. In your first year of business school, you have a perfect story.

But a lot of business school students, if they're being honest, they were in a rut. And they wanted to get out of that rut. So if you're not in a rut, don't go. I also think saying that there's other options. Like you can start a company for two years. This is a really expensive endeavor. And if you want to join a startup, like pivot,

just apply to a totally different field. Do that for two years and then go back. That's another option that I think people just, a lot of people think like, I'm in consulting. I have to go to business school. I'm in finance. I have to go to business school.

You totally can. And if you can afford that luxury, absolutely. You do not have to. There are other options. Also, frankly, I think the return on a business school investment gets higher with age.

I think I found my classmates who were right out of college, didn't have the work experience of content to put into business school. I was old too. I had 30. Yeah, same. And so I was older, but I had more experience from work life to put into business school to get more out. So you could kind of wait and wait.

And at a certain point, maybe it doesn't make sense. But if you then pull the trigger at 35, you may get more out of it than someone who's 22. Totally agree. Yes. Yes. The youngest classmates, I think, aren't,

Don't know what they're looking for. Yeah. And they're really focused on the test scores. Yeah. I mean, you get out what you put in, right? And if this person wants to go find a co-founder, for example, or potentially raise money, I mean, I think there's a reason to go to business school. And I always felt like, you know, you're the average of the people you're around, right?

And I felt like for business school, high motor, high drive, high ambition people, all wanting to do different things. And some, the younger ones, maybe not know exactly what they want to do. But for me, it was a huge confidence booster that, like, hey, I can. can hang here and hey these people are also making me better as well and as much of a break as it is and as much partying as there was I think somewhere I was very grateful that I went at 30 versus 24 25 makes sense and not to plug demoted here which I know we'll do at the end but we did a whole episode on this 55 minutes that hasn't released yet but if you want to learn more and unpack this further we unpack it we unpack it we do talk about beer pong this episode drops in September so

will the episode be there when yes it will be there nice you can go listen to the right now. Yes. Yes. It is life. Is an MBA worth it? Was it worth it for you guys? Would you do it again?

I didn't finish, but it opened up. We got to talk about that. It opened up a ton of doors for me. And it resulted in Nick and me going full hustle, the final summer of MBA. And the business went so well. And we wouldn't have been in position to launch our podcast and scale our media company had we not both gone to business school. So it worked out perfectly for us.

Even though I didn't get my degree. Yeah. Spent a lot of money for a piece of paper I didn't get. No, but that dropout line works. Absolutely massive. I mean, I didn't feel like I needed it. I don't know. Also, we ended up with a job that we'll never need a resume for again, which is kind of cool.

I haven't updated my resume since 2018. Mine just says C Jack. We also brought a little segment. We did bring a little segment. Oh, cool. So on our podcast, we do a little something called Promoted Demoted. We mentioned it. Do we like it?

Do we not? And so we came up with a few based off the theme of the thing. this episode and we would love to bring you both in to do it with us. Oh, great. Oh, let's do it. You want to a little PRD with us? Promo Dimo. Peer D. I'll start with the first one. Cover letters. Promoted. Really? To whom it may concern, Jack. Promoted. This is your opportunity to impress me that, first of all, you can write a letter. I'm a little old school in the sense. I can write cursive. Boomer alert. Yeah. Jack wants a postcard, handwritten in curses.

addressed to his home. No, it's a filter to see who took an extra 20 minutes to invest in a cover letter. Because when we put a job posting out, we get too many that we can even read. That's the truth. I know like AI kind of changes this question. Yeah, it does. I want to kind of read the first paragraph, read the final paragraph. Did you say something bold and interesting?

Yeah. So you, to hire for your podcast, if you were to hire, you would request a cover letter? I wouldn't even request one. I'd just see who does it. see a debt. Or who submits maybe a more modern version of a cover letter. I was going to say, what about a video? A video is fantastic. Jack and I like to say

the takeaway, it's better to be different than to be better. And a differentiated cover letter goes way further than anything. No, but I think a video goes even further than the point. I think every cover letter at the end of the day sort of starts to sound the same.

So I do like a video or something different. Or a sample of the product that the company is you know, making. Let's hit them on LinkedIn. So for us, you know, a sample of a newsletter or a sample of our pod converted into a social club.

Yeah. That would impress. I like that a lot. Recruiters spent like three to five seconds only on resumes, so I guess you need some of it. That's it. Three to five seconds on a resume. They bring it with them.

And they're like, oh, so tell me, see you did whatever in 2015. Tell me about that. Yeah. They're not ready. They don't know. So most important part of a resume? Bringing it with you.

Obviously. Obviously, your high school GPA. I think that's it. Because you bring it with you, you already filled it in three different times on the job application. My biggest regrets on my old resumes when I was applying was too much information

and not enough surprising material. So I wish I'd not had eight bullets about working with Latin American startups. And instead I wish I'd had that one bullet that said I worked construction in Manhattan one summer. The final bullet on my resume, which I haven't updated since 2018, is that I was the three-time,

salesman of the month at the Olive Garden and retired on time. But I love to say that one for you. Love that. You're for sure going to the next round for me. You're for sure going to that. When we go out to dinner, we'll be a Cotonia and Jack will be selling the wine guy. He'll be like, Jack will turn to him, be like, no, you look like a Keonti guy. Oh, my God.

At the end of the meal, so Jack and I have no shame at all. Yeah. No shame. Okay, so cover letters were overall promoted. I love it. We're going to promote them. Writing cursive, send it to Jack's home address. Fats prefer

Promoted demoted vests I wish so badly That vests weren't associated With finance bros Because I freaking love vests I know you guys I'm always chilling Yeah they're great if a wind is coming right at your core

In this city In this city I am certain if I opened up your closet There would be more vests than I could count I just know it about you Instead of vest Because like I do get You know kind of the eye roll of the finance bro look

I have to wear like an undershirt instead. And I hate like, you know, there's no The bacon shirt, yeah. It's because it's warm outside. But if it was chilly, I'd have to wear an undershirt. And it looks so juval in my opinion. Jack has a lot of specific thoughts. Like, you don't like it when people wear backpacks to a corporate shop.

If you're wearing a suit, I don't think you should ever wear it back? It doesn't pair well. Should I leave? A briefcase? Should I just get out of here? Ross will bring a backpack everywhere. You are a total backpack guy. I was like, should I bring a backpack?

I was like, what do you need to bring? I was like, nothing. I just can't, I just can't like, wear the suit. by itself. Ross was a big, no-no in my book. If you're wearing a suit, don't run up the stairs two steps at a time. Just walk up the stairs.

So you can have a backpack, just don't sprint with it, I think, Jack. It's on my body right now. If I took two steps, you'd hear a ripping side. You should point out, Ross also owns a pair of Lubiton boots, I believe, right? Oh, you know, the lovers with spikes. But you're mixing up in fashion. Yeah. Oh, I dabble.

Where do you stand on vests? On vests? Well, Jack, you know, I'm enagram three with a four wing, so I got this creative side. So I've always, I like to be a little bit different, so I've never really gotten into the vest game. I've never seen you wear a vest. That's beneath him. Fine, you got me. I don't have the arms for vests. I don't have the arms for vests. Little pipe cleaners coming out of that.

Promoter demoted, vest with their arms. A vest, but with a sleeve attached. With a sleeve, exactly. Okay, so you're promoting, hard-promote. Otherwise, it was a jacket. I'm demoting. Bring the vest back. Promoted or demoted, starting a LinkedIn post

with, I'm thrilled to announce. Demoted. But what if you're thrilled? Demoted. What if you're thrilled and you have an announcement? Then what? Give us some alternative. Stokes to announce.

Just say something different. We're all, we're anti-clicay. I'm full stop. In fact, if I ever like, you know, Nick and I do our research and Nick edits my script of the story, cliches are always struck by Nick. Yeah, that's how we added each other's work. We look for a cliche. And then we challenge ourselves to find a new way to say that same thing.

Yeah. And unexpected twist on like, I'm thrilled to announce. Like instead of saying, there's no such thing as a free lunch, Jack and I like to say, Gwok is always extra. So avoid the cliche, come up with your own cliche. Instead of the cash cow of the business, what's the profit puppy of the business? Instead of the lost leader, it's the lost llama. Great response.

The whole Noah's arc. Yeah, what just happened? What just happened? Like, literally, I'm... What are we watching? Like, what are we watching? Discovery Channel, I don't know. Well, for a LinkedIn post, it's great.

I guess another way for you to filter it, and I love that point, Jack, about taking a different approaches. Does this LinkedIn post sound more like a press release? or does it sound more like a text to a buddy? And I think at this point, the pendulum was swung so far to the press release side, you want it to sound more like a text. So instead of,

I'm thrilled to announce my new position, I'm honest to take this on, like, hey guys, incredibly fun update for you. Guess what? That dream job I mentioned a lunch the other day, boom, I got it. Let's go. Guess what chicken butts?

I love it. Big announcement alert. What's up, dogs? I would love that LinkedIn. All right. So from now on, Jack, all my LinkedIn posts. We're going full emoji text messages of them texting you. Are you guys using LinkedIn for this?

We are. We've been finding a lot of love for T-Boy more on LinkedIn over the last year. We've been sharing more there. And we've definitely seen that. Jack and I've thought. Every one of our stories, our three stories we do every day is a conversation starter. Promoted to demoted, starting business with a friend. With a close friend.

Promoted. With a best friend. With a best friend. Oh my God. He's like, wait. I don't think I could do that. I mean, I think the key thing about founding a business is that you're going to spend a crazy amount of time with that person. So you better enjoy time spent with that person.

Absolutely. The most important part of the business is trust and then comes fun, and you get that the most with your friend. I get it that there are businesses that have been founded by best friends, and it hasn't worked out. But it's worked out fantastically for Nick and May. And the best part, which our audience has heard before, but hear us out one more time. It's just I know that any suggestion Nick May, is in the best interests. It's not selfish.

I don't need to question where it's coming from. It's all thinking about what is best for us, because we are the company, the two of us. We have fantastic employees, but we're going to be doing this until we're 70. And I trust wholeheartedly that any suggestion Nick's makes, whether it's a sentence in an episode or like a big strategic pivot,

is in the right interests. The trust is just 100%. Absolutely. We put our relationship above everything, too. like the business decisions we make. It's like, what do you think about this? How do you feel about this, Jack? You're excited?

All right, this works. And that is generally aligned with the business. But we put our relationship first, and that has led the business in directions. It can never have gone if you're just two guys focused on the business. And the amount of laughter I get on a daily basis by recording the show with neck.

My core is way harder than it would be if I didn't have Nick. Now, that's how I have a sushi cakes. Can you show us? Totally. It's because he has me, my abs working on the laughter. I love this. I'm feeling inspired. Being that it's two of you, do you guys have a certain way to break stalemates? Because not only we do like a beanbag fight.

Yeah. It gets very aggressive. Exactly. Like how do you deal with disagreements? Like, do you have any fights? You want to share? One of the best investments we ever made was the first one we made when we left Robin Hood. We invested in a brand strategy.

And we determined like what the key elements are that make our podcast what it is. And there are a few keywords that are critical. in every story we do. And those words are a little different. They each have a little tension. But there's one word that's like the North Star of all, and it's brightness. Does this show make someone feel brighter, smarter,

and also brighter, happier? And whenever Jack and I are trying to figure out, how should we do this story, or should we partner with this company, or does this merch work, we go back to, if we have different opinions on it, well, at the end of the day, is it brighter? And that usually leads us to the right direction.

Ross, we're going to need a whiteboarding, session after this. I'm going to book you for... Can we get a little more caffeine for my other eyes? Yeah, we're going to need some serious whiteboarding. I'm feeling inspired. Thank you for sharing that with us too. I was like fellow, you know, co-hosts and business. Jack Disagree, though. No, just kidding.

Do you have another thought on it, Jack? I was going to say, you know, I'm a New England boy, so we stole this phone for Matt Damon and Ben Affleck, who grew up down the street from each other. Nice. How insane is that? The ultimate co-founders. Yeah. Goodwill Hunting is the favorite movie of 65% of New England guys. So they trust each other completely,

just like Nick and I do, because they're childhood friendship, just like us. But basically the way they break a tie is they ask each other who feels more strongly about this. And if Nick feels really strongly about a disagreement, I'll be like, dude, we'll do it. I'm good.

And same. I'll finish your coffee, you can have this. I'd rather Jack be happy than like a certain takeaway sound a certain way on a podcast. Yeah. And if I feel really strongly, about something. I'll tell Nick that and he'll be like, okay. Yeah. Because he knows my intention

is in the right place. Yeah. Wow. You guys got to launch a course. Seriously. Starting in business with your buddy. Yeah. Buddy business. Masterclass. Business besties. So Natalie, great. Great. Such nice words. Thank you. I'm truly honored and blessed to have Nick. But for those who don't have business besties. Yes, Jack. Can you share a few words about your wonderful podcast that Nick and I subscribe to? Demoted. Thank you for subscribing. We need all subscribers we can get. Demoted.

You guys double our subscribers. If you're this far through the podcast and you're like, who the heck are those two people who are randomly on the pod? It's Ross and I. We started a podcast called Demoted and our goal is to be your work bestie. If you don't have a work bestie, we want you to throw us on on your car in the gym, listen to us. Hopefully we brighten your day and give you some work advice along the way.

What I miss, Ross? I don't think you missed anything. I think that was pretty much perfect. Amazing. Like I said, it's 80% learning, 20% laughing. which is the inverse of their social accounts, which will also link to the episode description. You might not learn sometimes.

We recorded yesterday. We literally ended it with, sorry for that. Fair point. And tune in next week. Fair point. I think in a recent episode, it's a mixed bag.

It's a mixed bag. Ross explained that if you're in the bathroom stall and you're trying to cover yourself up, you can either cough or have a well-timed stomp. That's a learned. So if you consider that learning, that's what we call a value, my friends. What Jack and I appreciate about your show

is that Jack and I were really, really believe in chemistry driving content. You guys have such a good chemistry. There are, I can't think anyone else who could connect Bachelor and Bachelorette parties to work best practices in the way that you guys did in a recent episode. I was laughing out loud about it, sharing it with Jack too, but the fact that you guys can snag such relatable things outside of work and then connect them to a workplace about how one of you was on a Bachelorette that was ridiculously organized to the point where

snack time was set for all 18 people. And the other one was one was one. was walking in to a bachelor party where they hadn't even planned the golf timing yet, but it all planned to play golf but had no T-times. We were going to get there. We were going to get there. But then connecting it back to work was amazing.

Work can feel like a lonely place. Yes. Sometimes. And if it does, these two will make you feel seen. Yes. And you'll have fantastic laughter. You'll feel promoted. You'll feel promoted. I really enjoy listening to it. You'll feel... Well, we are honored to be on this podcast. You two are incredible. Like, thank you for having us. This has been an absolute blast.

Yeah, this was so effortly. and you guys are great. Thanks for driving, like, you know, carrying us through. It was honestly beautiful watching you, too. Like, truly, I feel inspired about, like, being a podcast. I mean, we have so much to learn from you too. And so thank you for having us on. We should all be proud of us because it's really fun that we all get to do this.

Before we close every show, we like to whip up the takeaways. Yeah. So we're going to let Ross and Natalie whip up the takeaways for our audience about the demoted podcast right now. Ross Natalie, what's the takeaway on corporate Natalie, on corp, and on the corporate. world in general. Mine is simple. Be a doer.

I think the individual contributor conversation rolling up your sleeves. Totally. Be a doer. Do some work. Don't just delegate. And people come to you. Yeah. Across the whole corporate spectrum. I think relationships matter.

They're always the first and foremost. Whether it's someone that you work directly with or not or for, I think that's the most important thing. People get hung up on the company and the prestige. But at the end of the day, it's about who you work for and who you work with, and that's what makes life fulfilling. Well, great news, guys.

We're going to give you back three minutes. Oh, my God. Thank you. Giving you the gift of time. How my manager expects me to react when they give me three minutes back. Yes. Oh, my God. Thank you.

Thank you so much. One more thing, though. One more three. No. One more question before we go. Just to piggyback off of. Turn off the cameras. Cut, cut.

All right. I think that's a wrap, everybody. Thanks for having us. Thanks, Yeties.