The Big Flop - 23andMe: Spit, Scandal, and a $6 Billion Meltdown with Kevin Sullivan and Laura Peek | 88

Episode Date: May 19, 2025

Celebrity spit parties, Met Gala appearances, and dreams of personalized medicine made 23andMe the hottest thing in biotech. Anne Wojcicki’s DNA tests promised to unlock the secrets of our genes – and maybe cure some diseases along the way. But when hackers exposed millions of users' genetic data, not even Richard Branson could save Anne from becoming another Silicon Valley casualty. Kevin Sullivan and Laura Peek join Misha to understand the building blocks of 23andMe's demise.Follow The Big Flop on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to The Big Flop early and ad-free on Wondery+. Join Wondery+ in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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Problem with 23andMe, it was such a viral sensation at one point with Halloween costumes, with celebrities Oprah herself endorsing it. Your DNA is organized into 23 pairs of chromosomes and it can tell you a lot about what makes you, you. You look at me and you might think I am European, but I actually have a tiny bit of Asian. DNA testing from 23andMe filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy. And now California Attorney General Rob Bonta is issuing a consumer alert telling customers to delete their highly sensitive genetic data. We in on the exciting Sugar Rush and Crazy Time slot games, or play the dazzling MGM Grand Emerald Nights, a slot experience that captures the magic

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Conditions apply. Details at michelin.ca. Find a Michelin TreadExperts dealer near you at treadexperts.ca slash locations. From tires to auto repair, we're always there. TreadExperts.ca From Wondery and Atwill Media, this is The Big Flop, where we chronicle the greatest flubs, fails, and blunders of all time. I'm your host, Misha Brown, social media superstar and genetic super mutt at your bestie Misha.

And on our show today, I'm so excited. We have two incredible people. We have a comedian and content creator. You can catch him on tour so soon. It's Kevin Sullivan. Welcome to the show. Hello, thank you for having me. Yay.

Also on the show, joining him, we have a comedian you can catch on tour this summer as well. It's Laura P. K. Bestie. Hello, very nice to meet you. Thanks for having me. You too. So I have to tell you both, I just took a DNA test and it turns out I am 100% that bitch. Thank you.

Thank you. Have you ever gotten your DNA tested? Kevin, you're nodding. You did 23 and me? Mm-hmm. Yeah, I did that. I got that whole stretch. I also did my dogs. Same. Okay, the dog won more accurately 100% that bitch though.

Yeah, legitimately. My dog was actually 70% that bitch and 30% a different bitch. My dog was actually 70% that bitch and 30% a different bitch. So for anybody that doesn't know, recently 23andMe, the super buzzy at home DNA testing startup has been in the headlines for going bankrupt. Now folks are worried that their precious data is up for sale and well, it probably is. But you can't have 23andMe without its co-founder and spokeswoman, Anne Wojcicki. Now one of her main missions in life is to encourage other girls to go into STEM. So I stan Anne as it currently stands. The other thing she was very interested in, bringing personalized health care to the masses. Because her father was once the chair of Stanford

University's physics department. Her mom was a high school journalism teacher and both were super supportive and encouraging in their own way. Her dad would take her to the university where she'd help him during lectures. And her mom would say stuff like, all you need is one person who believes in you. Oh, sweetheart. I know. Actually quite nice. She's got two sisters, close in age,

both of whom go on to be successful in different ways. So basically, Wojcicki has the idyllic bringing up in Silicon Valley. In fact, here's the moment Anne figures out her calling. I was, I think, about six years old, and I remember my mom lecturing my sister about something, and she said something about, like, oh, it's in your jeans. And I was really confused because she wasn't wearing jeans.

And I kept saying, what are jeans? What are jeans? And then she told me, and I was like, it's in you, and it's part of your makeup? And ever since that moment, I was fascinated by microbiology. Okay, gorgeous. So, like, is this relatable? Like, do you remember a moment in your childhood

where you were like, I know exactly what I want to do for the rest of my life? When I was in 10th grade, I did a Shakespeare project where I interviewed Shakespeare, and I realized, like, my goal in life will be like a late night talk show. Like I ran a late night talk show, the teacher was crying and it was my goal as a child to make adults laugh.

Oh my god. And I was like, oh, this is going to be it. I'm going to interview Shakespeare. Yeah, even though the subscription model isn't illegal, it's clearly a desperate money move. So Wojcicki, she goes to Yale. She plays ice hockey there, and later works at a bunch of hedge funds and private equity firms that specialize in healthcare. She honestly sounds like a dream. She realizes through her work

that money tends to be more important to private businesses than, you know, the medicine they're funding. Whoa. No, pause for shock and awe. Wait, what? No shock. than, you know, the medicine they're funding. Oh! No, plus for shock and awe. Wait, what? No shock. So she gets that classic, budding entrepreneur conviction

that she's going to be the person to change all of this. And she happens to be surrounded by plenty of other aspiring tech titans. In 1998, Wajiski's sister, Susan, rents out her garage to a couple of chumps named Larry Page and Sergey Brin. They need the space for some project they're calling Google, who cares, right? Oh, these guys. Who?

I don't know, I've never used it. I know, same. Sidebar, this fact is from Google's own history page. The original name for Google was, do you know this factoid? Schmugal. Schmugal. McDougal. It was backrub.

Oh! Oh, it's a bunch of freaking perverts. Why? No. Why back rub? Could you imagine if we were just constantly looking things up on backrub.com? And using it as a verb. I need to back rub that really quick.

Will you back rub this for me? I don't think it would have been a success. How tall is Lana Del Rey? Will you back rub this for me? You know eventually they would like shorten it too. I'd be like, can you just like rub that real quick? Yes, 100%. Can you give me a quick B rub?

And then like the competitor front rub comes out and then all hell breaks loose. Well while Google grows in popularity, a relationship blossoms between Sergey Brin and Anne Wojcicki. I mean, how can you not fall for the nerdy guy working out of your sister's garage? But I mean, to be fair, he wasn't rich yet. But when Google goes public in 2004, I don't want to understate how massive of an event Google's IPO was. Overnight, Brynn and his associates make $23 billion. Google, by the way, is now worth over $1.5 trillion. Laura just deflated. I didn't, my whole body deflated.

There's so much money in the world and I don't have any of it. I'm just pissed, you know what I mean? So, I mean, with all this cash, Brynn is now the go-to guy for seed money in town, right? Bryn is put in touch with a biologist named Linda Avey, who has a vision of bringing genetic testing to the masses. Bryn knows someone with just the right business instincts to make that happen, his girlfriend.

Wojcicki, she sees a lot of potential in the area, like designer drugs, not the fun trippy kind, the cure a disease kind. So imagine you get a headache. Thanks to DNA sequencing, you can have your own type of headache medicine, one that doesn't have as many side effects because you're special, babe. And these can have really helpful effects. Like maybe you're worried about something more serious than a headache like chronic illness or cancer. For example, when Brynn himself gets his genetic

testing done, he learns he's predisposed to Parkinson's. So he adjusts his lifestyle, adding more caffeine and exercise into his routine to keep the disease at bay. It does solidify the idea that I think is growing and is very true that rich people are never going to die. And it scares me a lot. You know what I mean? I don't know if this is an Eat the Rich podcast, but I'm like, they're gonna, they have so much access to so much more stuff than we have. I've been getting NAD shots. Don't worry, I'm going to be eating them for the rest of my life too, which is forever. I'll be there just to remind them. I'll bring the message

into the future. We have the rich and the immortal eaters of the rich. Yeah. Yeah, money can't buy you happiness, but it can buy you immortality. That's right. So with enough genetic data, scientists can figure out not only who has Parkinson's or Alzheimer's

or anything else, but also how to treat those scary diseases. So Wojcicki, AV, and two other investors formally band together to make a girl group, I mean, sorry, a company. Send them to space. Let's put Katy Perry into space, guys. So, now obviously every important startup

needs a cool name like Theranos or SpaceX, and they pick 23andMe Science Pop Quiz. Do you know why it's called 23andMe? 23 comes up. Oh, my gosh! Ding, ding, ding! You get a free DNA test. Well, between 2006 and 2008, Wajiski's life is just wonderful. She co-founds 23andMe, marries Sergey Brin, and has her first child. Now, 2007 is a big year for Wojcicki because it's also the year 23andMe starts selling its DNA

test directly to consumers. And they look like this for a reminder. There she is. So gorgeous. Laura, can you describe for those who are listening only what we're looking at? It says, welcome to you. It is a box. It contains a rainbow of chromosomes, descending in height across the front of it. The saliva... I mean, throwing the word saliva collection onto the box itself feels like a bold move. Feels like a missed opportunity to call it Spit Kit.

Hello! I think saying just spit on this would be amazing. Um... spit on this. That's so weird. I have that tattoo. -♪ BANJO MUSIC PLAYING ON RADIO PLAYING QUIETLY... -♪ Basically, 23andMe sends you a boxed kit with a plastic tube in it and some chemicals. And after you spit into the tube, you snap the cap back into place,

shake it all up for five seconds, seal the tube inside a plastic bag and ship it right back to 23andMe inside the box it came in. A couple of months later, you can log into your account and see the results. Oh, and you can't eat, drink or brush your teeth for 30 minutes before using the kit or your DNA test will come back 100% that sandwich. So sorry. I love it. No, I love it. Don't apologize. 100% that sandwich. So sorry. I love it.

No, I love it. Don't apologize. Believe in that joke. That was a good one. I'm 100% Crest Whitestrip. Now, assuming you do it correctly, you'll be rewarded with an overall summary of your health conditions, a map of your family's genealogy, plus, if you want, info on any biological relatives who also take the test.

Now, I mean, the kit, it's so simple, it's so elegant, fame and fortune, here we go. Except the tests are really expensive. They're $999. I didn't know that. Yes. Publicly, this is a hard sell. So 23andMe is far from being profitable at the beginning. But investors still feel good about the long-term potential. Google, and I mean the company, not just her husband, has thrown in $3.9 million into the

company. Plus, her husband's company isn't the only investor. Wendy Murdoch, wife of notorious media mogul Rupert Murdoch, also stuffs Wojcicki's pockets full of cash. He is in like every episode of this podcast. Good Lord. Do we never, like, it's the same four dudes. No matter what we say about Wojcicki in the beginning,

or you know, whatever her life was prior to marrying in, like, and becoming friends with all these tech people, you started taking money from bad people. Yeah, lots and lots of it as well. And Wendy Murdoch does more than just put cash into her pocket. Wendy and Wojcicki are out shopping one day when Wojcicki mentions that 23andMe needs

a better publicist. So as Wojcicki is trying on outfits in the dressing room, Wendy makes a call to the top publicist at News Corp, her husband's massive media conglomerate, and at the drop of a hat, this publicist shows up to their dressing room and starts rattling off ideas for how 23andMe can grow and improve its brand. I mean, that's excellent service, but also boundaries? Nefarious and bound, that's a scene out of succession. That is your PR guy showing up, you're fully nude, and he's like, I know how to make it work for you.

I've never, first time I'm hearing about it, but I can make you billions. I talk about publicity in front of my friends all the time. Not one of them has told me who their publicist is. You're like, I'm always like, I could use a really good PR team. And they're like, yeah, you could. Nobody's bitten. So with money and expertise now pouring in, Wojcicki gets to work building up hype for

genetic testing. She organizes celebrity spit parties where the world's elites gather to, as you might guess it, spit their way to genetic revelations. Who do you think are some of the celebs in attendance? P. Diddy. P. Diddy definitely. P. Diddy definitely. It wasn't baby oil. those are celebrity spit bottles. Well we found some celebrity faces like Chevy Chase, Ivanka Trump, and Harvey Weinstein.

Okay, so probably the same people. Yeah, it is all the same. Okay, the celebrity spit party run by Google, run by Backrub. Backrub and the Koch brothers present the Celebrity Spit Party. Get the hell out of my face. These things write themselves, everybody. If I walked into a party and those three were there, I'm not touching anything. Yeah, fingerprints will stay on my fingers. And in 2008, Time Magazine names 23andMe's test

Invention of the Year. Do either of you remember any other Time Magazine best invention nominees from 2008? Probably the Squatty Potty at some point. Barack Obama. Well, the Time Magazine Best Invention nominees from 2008 are The New Mars Rover, Smog Eating Cement, The Invisibility Cloak, also some of my favorites, Facebook for Spies, The Synthetic Organism, which sounds like a bad Marvel character, and sound-enhanced food. Okay. The two I'm most interested in, sound-enhanced food, what is it?

Is it all macaroni and cheese? What are we talking about? Second is invisibility cloak. We never got that off the ground? I'm so much more interested in that. I think I've seen one. Really? Or I haven't. Or I haven't. I was just gonna say... I haven't seen one. Really?

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agent, a dictator or a disgraced broadcaster, get stuck into Wandery's VE Day specials from British Scandal, The Spy Who and Legacy. Find them wherever you listen to podcasts or binge the full seasons early and ad-free on One3 Plus. So despite all the media hype, 23andMe still has yet to become mainstream for the general public. Realizing the price point might be too much of a barrier, they decide to cut it down by a few hundred bucks. Now, if you want to spit in a little tube and shake it up a bunch, you're just gonna have to fork over $400.

Now, as the public gets more acquainted with 23andMe, they also start asking questions. Like, what happens if your private DNA information gets leaked? Or, what if insurance companies start using your inherited traits to deny medical care? Huh. What would be your biggest concern?

Honestly, just because of how annoying this has gotten, I think my biggest concern is that tech companies would get a hold of this and then use it to send me targeted ads. They're like, do you struggle with sleep and then I get a trillion, you know? They know too much about me. It already freaks me out how much they know. I love a targeted ad, but that is a different conversation. I'm like, yeah, show me those

pants over and over. I do want them. I'm going to buy them. They're in five carts. Well, Wajiski, she doesn't seem too concerned about any of these dangers. She's busy. She's got a company to run. She's got a back rub to give. She's got a back rub to give. She's got a back rub to give. She's got girl bossing to do.

Mm-hmm. Well, speaking of boss, like all reports, she is generally considered to be a good boss. Like she's known to have a sense of humor, even indulging in practical jokes, like installing a remote control fart machine in Linda Avey's chair. So... We got a chill girl on our hands. Of course, I'm not like the other girls.

She's a guy CEO. I'm a cool boss. I also love though, that it wasn't a whoopee cushion. She's like, I have a high tech remote controlled fart machine. This is women in STEM. Yeah. Can you guess what their weekly all hands meetings were called?

It was on Fridays. 23 and us. 23 and we. It was Feisty Fridays. Okay, you were closer. But things do, in fact, get feisty. Avey finds more than just a fart machine in her office. She finds a gun. Betrayal.

Dun, dun, dun. A gun. I was like, this is turning into Clue. Yeah, murder mystery. In 2009, Wojcicki convinces the board of 23andMe to oust Avey in a surprise attack. The reasoning behind it? Wojcicki seems to just want more control

over the direction of the company. She even gets the board to give up some of its voting powers. Ultimately, Wojcicki's the one with the high-powered investor connections, and Avey's just a lowly, brilliant scientist. So, she gets the boot.

As soon as they start getting rid of scientists too, you know there's a problem because somebody had some ethical concerns or something. It wasn't about the fart machine. No, she nailed the fart machine. Couldn't have gone better with the fart machine. Not this though. And that's the thing. It's like she can be as chill as she wants, but you start to see the inklings of like greed and wanting unchecked power. And that's the thing. It's like she can be as chill as she wants, but you start to see the inklings of like greed and wanting unchecked power. And I think the richer you get, the more that happens to you. Oh, I'm fascinated at what's going to happen next.

We see though, Wojcicki, she can get away with the law, but you know what she can't do? Avoid the FDA. Uh-huh. So that's right. Those dreaded bureaucrats and their pesky concerns. In 2010, the FDA sends a warning letter to 23andMe that their genetic tests aren't just novelty party favors or really invasive Christmas gifts. They have serious medical implications. So,

the FDA argues, they need to be regulated like serious medical devices. Now, 23andMe isn't necessarily opposed to complying with the FDA, but FDA approval takes a long time and they want to become a profitable company like yesterday. So they apply for FDA approval knowing that it could take years. And while that simmers in the background, the fundraising machine must continue its work. So 23andMe raises $31 million in 2011 money and $50 million in 2012 money. But that's just coming from investors. There are fewer than 200,000 people

actually buying the product at this point. And they're nowhere near profitable. They were just a little too early, because I'm pretty sure the FDA just got stripped out. So, should have waited 15 years. Should have waited 15 years for the government to be dismantled. That's all, that's all.

No foresight. But what could they do to get more customers, do you think? I'm trying to think of where I was. And like, what was like, what was happening around me to know like, what I was spending $400 on. Probably not much. Probably not much. Ding, ding, ding. They need to lower the price.

So they lower the price to $99. And that's when I bought it. And that's when I bought it. I think I did with the genetic test, and I think mine was like $129. Like, you could do the basic one for $99. And that's when I bought it. And that's when I bought it. I think I did with the genetic testing, I think mine was like 129. Like you could do the basic one for 99. And then like, yeah, something like that. And in August of 2013, 23andMe launches a slick new ad campaign. I might have an increased risk of heart disease, arthritis, gallstones,

hemochromatosis. I'll look into that stuff we might pass on to our kids. Foods I might want to avoid hundreds of things about my health. Yeah, because like none of that you could find out at your doctor. Yeah. Go to your GP. Foods I might want to avoid. Foods that make me fart. You just figure it out. We're all figuring it out all the time.

Also, why did every person in that video look AI? Was that my screen? Was there some sort of... They look like fake human beings. Was that just me? It's giving like a weird Black Mirror episode for sure. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. But I mean, remember, we were a lot more trusting back in 2012 than we are today. 23Meet, they have big hopes with this new price and ad campaign and their goal is to quintuple

its customer base to 1 million happy customers. Well, Wojcicki, she also really likes being the center of attention and so does her husband, Sergey Bryn. Now, our listeners might remember how when Google Glass was launched, he tried to seem like a cool kid by hiring stunt bikers to help sell the product nobody wanted. Now, I don't know if the mutual vying for the spotlight is the reason Wojcicki and Brin's relationship slides down the spit-tube or that they're both trying to be billionaire entrepreneurs while parenting two children, but it does. And their

marriage gets rocked by a scandalous affair in 2013 and you can get all that drama which is absolutely insane by listening to our Google Glass episode. The very abbreviated summary is that Wojcicki is blindsided by her husband's infidelity and right around the time the new 23andMe ad campaign drops, she and Brynn separate. Thankfully, while Wojcicki deals with heartache and the FDA hangs over her head, 23andMe's PR team continues to ace the assignment. In November of 2013, mere weeks after Wojcicki's marriage falls apart, Fast Company anoints her as the most daring CEO in America.

Let's take a look. Whoever this PR person was that showed up to this dressing room really ate. Okay. Big time. She also looks deeply troubled in this photo, I have to say. She looks daring. She looks daring, yeah. They were like, they're like, look brave. Look bravely into the future for us, right? Doesn't she look like she's trying to look brave?

I dare you to take away my fart machine in my 23andMe. Well, every flattering magazine cover deserves a government crackdown. And very quickly after the November FASTCO issue goes live, so does an order from the FDA for 23andMe to stop marketing their genetic health risk tests directly to consumers. Now on the plus side, Pfizer and Genentech have already signed up to collaborate with 23andMe.

And not like on a cool social media campaign, no, they hope to find a cure for Parkinson's disease. So to do that, 23andMe will share its aggregate genetic data with the two big pharma companies, and in exchange, Pfizer and Genentech will give 23andMe $60 million. Is it weird that I'm like, is that a lot? Well, I mean- In this day and age?

Yeah, in this day and age? Yeah, in this day and age. Honestly drop in bucket for these companies, but when you're getting 60 million from this, you're getting 30 million from that, they're racking up the millions. I guess, yeah. And this is all without selling very many, they're not selling very many tests for all the money. Yeah, true.

Because if it's a hundred bucks, how many would they have to sell? A lot. Yeah. For all intents and purposes, sure. Because if it's a hundred bucks, how many would they have to sell? A lot. Yeah. For all intents and purposes, still a pretty unprofitable company. Another feather in Wojcicki's cap is that in 2015, 23andMe clears the FDA's regulatory process and the company is now able to market their health screening service. That means more customers and more data. This is great for 23andMe's flashy new Therapeutics division,

which could use all the data it can get as they work toward the holy grail of those designer drugs. On June 18, 2015, 23andMe finally reaches its goal of 1 million customers! Confetti cannons came. Whee! Yes, one million customers who have willingly shared their genetic information. Now, that's a record amount of folks learning such life altering info like they're actually Irish instead of Swedish.

And it's a record amount of sequenced DNA samples the company can use to develop medication. But as Kevin was alluding to, there's a huge flaw in 23andMe's business plan and that is you only need to buy it one time. There are not repeat customers. Yes, right. By fall, Wojcicki's feeling pretty confident and the price of 23andMe test goes back up. This time it cost $199. The company also raises $115 million in another round of funding, bringing its new valuation to $1.1 billion.

Now we're talking. Yeah. Not bad. 2016, even better. In April, 23andMe testing kits start popping up at CVS and Target stores. Thanks FDA approval. And if all that didn't boost her confidence enough, in May of 2016, she scores one of the most exclusive tickets in the world. Coachella.

That's right. Our girl, our queen is going to the Met Gala. Ah! So close. So close. You were so close. The theme is Manus Ex Machina, fashion in an age of technology. Oh, I remember that one.

Oh, God, I do too. So it's supposed to be commentary on handmade couture and machine-made mass consumer fashion, but it also incorporates wearable machinery and technology in general. And Wojcicki's ex-husband, Sergey Brin, is there with his new lady friend, future RFK stan, Nicole Shanahan.

Oh my God, I was like, Cheryl Hines. LAUGHS But, Wajiski, she upstages him so hard. Any guesses how? She wore the girlfriend's stem cells. around her neck. LAUGHS She wore her spit vial. She just drank stem cells.

Yeah. No, she also debuts her new beau, Alexander Rodriguez, aka A-Rod, formerly of the New York Yankees. She dated A-Rod? Yes. So, Kevin. Where was I? Where the hell was I? I'm watching all of this, but I just didn't see them. Now, comes 2017, she's still hitting home runs

because Wojcicki is still dating A-Rod. And in April, 23andMe doubles its users to two million customers. The best part? The FDA gives 23andMe the green light for 10 more direct-to-consumer genetic risk tests. In September, more good news, an up-and-coming musical sensation, Lizzo, releases an album with the future hit single, Truth Hurts. And this is the song where we get, I just took

a DNA test and it turns out I'm 100% that bitch. This is a huge cultural endorsement for 23andMe, because now little teens are bopping around wanting to get their DNA sequenced to see what percent that bitch they are. That is the most dystopian sentence I have ever heard. I'm like, now little teeny boppers would love to get their DNA sequenced

like they're... Like they're hero Lizzo. So crazy. So crazy. But more than Lizzo, if you're looking for an endorsement that will ensure every suburban American will buy your product, who do you call? Oprah.

Oh, sure. Okay, that makes sense. I was like, Martha Stewart? Oprah. Martha Stewart? Oprah! Martha Stewart. Well, for the 2017 holiday season, Oprah Winfrey bestows her blessing on 23andMe by adding the 23andMe testing kit to her holiday favorites list.

For the record, other items that have made the list include a microwavable lavender-stuffed pillow and a special cutting board that makes baguettes easier to slice. The second thing sounds ridiculous. I bought the lavender pillow though. Me and my mom both had one of those lavender pillows. I mean for someone that loves bread, it makes sense the baguette thing. That's like a thing right? She loves bread. I will say I did buy my entire like sheet and comforter and pillow set from her holiday list and it's really hard to get out of my bed in the mornings. The wrecks are good.

They're always good. They are. If Oprah likes it, folks pay attention. And 23andMe continues to be a business and cultural phenomenon for the next couple of years. In 2018, the company inks a deal with a British big pharma company called GSK to develop novel medicines, which means custom drugs and treatments. And in 2019, Lizzo even dresses like a 23andMe test for Halloween.

Wait, was Lizzo getting paid? Yeah, why would she? I don't know. If she was not getting millions of dollars for this, then what in the hell was going on? Yeah, that's an industry plant. That is. Conspiracy podcast.

Nobody likes getting their DNA tested that much. Yeah. That's ridiculous. Yeah. It's obviously more good PR for 23andMe, whether Lizzo got paid or not, we don't know. Well, and if things weren't going well enough, Wajyszkij even manages to have another child, not with A-Rod, but with a sperm donor, quote, I really wanted a third child. So like, guess what?

I executed. Oh, okay. Don't put child and execute in the same sentence. That just feels like an easy thing to avoid. Totally. The child grows up and be like, well, I was executed and then I was birthed. Still don't know how that happened. Yeah.

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now by joining Wondery Plus. In 2019, revenues jumped to $441 million, but we still have that one core issue that no one ever needs to buy these kits more than once. Oh, and on top of that, the company is finding that a whole lot of people are totally uninterested in their genetic information. Or even if they are interested, their curiosity is tamped down by their privacy concerns. So by early 2020, just as 23andMe has moved into a much bigger office, they see that without a doubt, sales are leveling off. And then they start to plummet. In January, Wojcicki and company lay off 14% of 23andMe's staff. And for a minute they think that they'll at least be able to lease half the office to

another company, but then… COVID. I just picture people going into the office and if you sat on a fart machine, you're fired. You're fired. They play- No, that was a real one. That was a real one.

They play musical fairs to not having your corporate job anywhere. Capitalism strikes again. By the first quarter, revenues at 23andMe dropped 30% from the same point in the previous year. So we're down to just $305 million. Still a lot for you or me, but near zero in Silicon Valley. In tech. Yeah, that's nothing. Nothing. Once people are at that point, like, the people that were going

to take it took it. Have taken it. Yeah, they've been reached by your marketing. It was so that see, that's the thing as a person who never did it and never really felt called to do it. Like every single person in America knows what this test is. It was like, it has such ubiquity throughout all of culture for a long time. Well, Wajiski nonetheless, she still sees a path forward. Now to climb out of it slump 23 and me starts experimenting with a subscription model. Oh my god. They said phabletics?

How about genetics? Yeah. The pitch is, sure, you as a customer only need one test, but as medical science advances, maybe you'd be interested in learning how your results match up against new research? Just log into your account and choose what information you'd like to access. Yeah, they tried that. I was getting notifications all the time. I ended up just muting it.

And I said, when I want to remember if it was 13 or 12% British, I will log back in. Yeah. What an absolute grift that is. I was trying to figure out, I was like, how could they even begin to market this as something that you need to use more than once? And they always do.

Subscription. What an absolute grift. Yeah, Wajiski assures her investors that millions of people will want this. No, the gamble does not pay off. Wajiski has left STEM and went into sales. Yeah, basically. Yeah, it seems pretty clear that if Wajiski wants her company to survive, she will have to make good on her long ago promise to use genetic data to develop drugs and treatments. And quickly, luckily, around 10 million people have by

this point taken the test. And 80% of those people have given 23andMe consent to use their tests for research. That's a pretty good sample size. And all it needs is a little TLC. Tender Loving Cash! So now that her ex-husband Brynn is less likely to spot Wojcicki a few bucks, she needs other investors to hold the bag. And that's when everyone's favorite big flop, Hall of Famer, Richard Branson makes his way into Anne's life. He really can be counted on in all situations

and timelines to help a dying thing die. Yeah. Well, by 2021, 23 isMe is down, but not out. Sales have stagnated, but the company and Wojcicki have a few irons in the fire. They just signed a deal with a Spanish drug company called Almeral to develop skin treatments. They're also still under contract with GSK, and 23andMe's internal therapeutics team is working hard to unlock the secrets of custom medical treatments.

Enter Big Daddy Richard Branson. Help a dying thing die. Branson takes the company public, and 23andMe goes from lying on death's door to being worth $3.5 billion. The resurrection. Resurrection. So I'll just make believe at this point.

And Ann's personal stake, $1.3 billion of those dollars. So sure, it's nothing compared to Google's overnight success, but now Ann Wojcicki is what Forbes refers to as a self-made billionaire. Now the stock keeps climbing and later in 2021 peaks at $6 billion. Wow. 23andMe even starts acquiring other companies. It shells out $400 million to buy Lemonade, a telehealth company based out of San Francisco. In a 2022 press release, 23andMe announces it's made 40 helpful discoveries in just four years

under their partnership with the British pharma company GSK. So the GSK collab gets extended for another year. The beginning of the end comes in 2023. It's another year of weird ups and downs. On the one hand, the company is worth a lot of money, right? And it's supposedly discovering a bunch of cool medical stuff. On the other, it's actually never made a profit. Yeah. GSK chooses not to extend its partnership with 23andMe. There's one surefire way to handle this.

Obviously, fire a bunch of workers. Bring out the fart machine. Bring out the fart machine! Fire up the fart machine. Mm-hmm. 25% of 23andMe's staff fart. I mean, are cut loose in three rounds of layoffs. They should have done 23% of 23andMe in 2023. I mean, our cut loose in three rounds of layoffs. They should have done 23% of 23andMe in 2023. I'm just saying.

You're a marketing genius. Now, there is at least one bright spot in the year. In honor of International Women's Day, Mattel releases Barbies based on the Wojcicki sisters. Let's take a look. is Barbies based on the Wojcicki sisters. Let's take a look. There's Anne on top of the world as a leader in genomics, Susan, CEO of a little startup called YouTube, and Janet. Who the hell is Janet? Well, it is Dr. Janet.

She is a professor. Got it. Listen here, this is the... This is the 2021 equivalent of sending Katy Perry to space while everyone is starving to death on Earth. Laura, a lot of people felt the same as you. Wojcicki gets a lot of blowback for pulling this massive PR move while so many of her staff are being laid off. Yeah.

And take a Barbie on your way out. Yeah. So, with the downsizing, higher interest rates, and the very obvious flaw that 23andMe's tests only need to be purchased once, investors finally wake up. They start selling off their stocks. Then in October of 2023, the unthinkable happens. News breaks that 23andMe has been hacked and private user data has been stolen. Oh no.

Almost 7 million people are affected. We call this unthinkable, except it's actually the complete opposite, where everyone was thinking this could easily happen, but was also thinking it would be best to not think about it. Someone back rubbed our data. Someone back rubbed our data. Someone back rubbed our data. So here's how the digital heist goes down. As far as 23andMe is concerned,

their network has not been hacked, not directly. Instead, the hackers use something called credential stuffing, where they try to use passwords they found floating around the web elsewhere and see if they get lucky. And usually they do. In this case, 14,000 23andMe accounts are accessed through the credential stuffing maneuver and those accounts contain information about millions of other people.

So 23andMe doesn't even know this has happened for months because, again, their network hasn't been hacked, a bunch of individual users have. They find out like everybody else. On Reddit. Oh my god. Oh, that's brutal. How do people even find out that they're, I don't know. I'm like, my password is all the same.

Yeah. In this case, the company found out after you did, it seems, which is insane. Insane. Insane. Now, this credential stuffing data breaches, they happen all the time. But because 23andMe is both a social networking site and contains important healthcare information, it's bad, like real bad for the company. The information ends up for sale on the dark web

in a quote, cyber crime marketplace called Breach Forums. What would you do in this case if you were Ann Wojcicki? I mean, dig a hole and go to sleep. Yeah, I'm just, I'm like, did it, did it, did it. She should have sold long ago. You know, she's been like peddling. Like it was a red wagon, a beautiful red wagon, and she's, you know, now it's down to like a nub of a pulley and she's just still carting this thing around

being like invest in this. It's like, why didn't you sell at 6 billion? This might have been an awkward decision, but it's time to launch a new product. That was her answer to the data breach. They try to honk their most ambitious subscription service yet called Total Health. Oh my God. For $1,188 a year, billed upfront, Total health subscribers can get a comprehensive DNA test, as well as blood tests and appointments with 23andMe's doctors. Sure, it sounds expensive, but it's

relatively affordable when you consider how much healthcare in America costs. So are they literally floating like, replace your health plan with this? It sounds like that's what they're doing. Basically, yeah. Wowee. Basically. This is it. This is Wajiski's dream finally realized. Personalized genetics-based healthcare. Now anything is possible, including, unfortunately, the financial collapse of the company. In January of 2024, a class action lawsuit is filed against 23andMe for the data breach. And the company's stock crashes to 98% of its peak, which at one point was $6 billion. The stock is now worth less than $1. And Nasdaq threatens to delist it. 23andMe ends up settling the lawsuit for 30 million dollars and

here's the real kicker. Wojcicki takes her salary in stocks. Otherwise, she only gets paid 60k a year. And those stocks now are worth nothing. She's never sold any of her shares. Oh my God, stupid. That is so dumb. If you're at the helm of a company who is failing in front of your eyes and you hold on to every ounce of stock that you have with them, oh, I don't, the delusion.

Delulu. It's so delulu. Also, you know, when you were talking about how she had some like, those power trip moments too, of course she wanted to be like the majority shareholder, like she wasn't probably giving up any, any of it. So in August of 2024, Wajiski try something radical. She offers to buy the company and go private.

Wajiski shows up to your house and swabs you herself for $5,000 a year. We call it the Wajiski method. I'm living your bedroom. For $25,000 a year. That is crazy. She makes this offer to buy it. However, the board of directors rejects the bid.

Sure. And this comes at an overwhelming time for Wojcicki personally. Her sister Susan, the CEO of YouTube, is dying of cancer. And her teenage nephew, Susan's son, just recently died from an overdose. Oh my god. Now the board, of course, understands this is a difficult time. So they wait one month after Susan passes away to resign from 23andMe in unison in September. Brutal. And from there, it's unbridled chaos. While presumably still grieving, Wajyski hires a new

board and pays them $800,000 upfront, but two weeks later she has to fire 40% of her staff. But two weeks later, she has to fire 40% of her staff. And in March of 2025, the new board rejects another offer from Wojcicki to buy the company. And on March 24th, 23andMe files for bankruptcy and Anne Wojcicki resigns. God, I feel bad for her. Also, I love that she hired a bunch of people and then they were still like, no, it's kind of like what's happening in the Supreme Court right now with the fucking loser face. Like hiring this board and then they're like, no, no, no. We're not going to listen to you. You're an idiot. Where is she now?

Well let's do a little where are they now? Oh, great. Wow. Okay. I'm excellent at this podcast. You are. So after the company she founded filed for bankruptcy, Ann Wojcicki immediately vowed to buy up 23andMe's assets at auction and keep doing her work. Meanwhile, several state attorney generals have strongly advised people who've used 23andMe to log into their accounts and immediately delete their data. This is probably good advice since separately a US bankruptcy judge has just given the company permission to sell that data. Oh I haven't done that yet.

Yeah same. Do this right when we hop off. Yeah. Guys go delete your shit. Yeah. That's terrifying. Millions of people who've discovered they have lost relatives or genetic diseases have been anxiously weighing their options.

Even if they're grateful for the information they've received, they're terrified it might fall into the wrong hands. Now, here on The Big Flop, we try to be positive people and end on a high. So are there any silver linings that you can think of that came about from Anne Wojcicki and the seemingly inexorable 23andMe? So are there any silver linings that you can think of that came about from Anne Wojcicki and the seemingly inexorable 23andMe? Now, if I want to just spit into a cup sometimes, I don't have to give anybody money for it.

Yeah, you can just do it because you feel like it. And positives for dear Anne. I mean, I hope she's not destitute, but girl, don't make promises like that. Don't promise to be a health expert if you're not going to ever be a health expert. Also, I hope that you had fun with A-Rod. He seems like he'd be good at sex. I mean, she got to go to the Met Gala, like, hello, with A-Rod. I love that we also, like, so misogynistic,

we're like, and you got also this man. I know, oh my God, yes. Like, I know that you went to Yale, but like also this fucking athlete. It's a great lesson for everyone else on like, sometimes you gotta give up on your dream, to like start something else. It's okay to pivot.

That was tough to end on a high. That was all I'm thinking about is my data. Yeah, you both need to get out of here immediately and delete your data. I do think there were some silver linings. As far as like big flop protagonists go, I do think that Anne is one of our most, dare I say, sympathetic.

I think she was in it for the right reasons. I think she was a bad business woman, but I think what she was trying to do was sincere. She ultimately didn't harm anybody. She just wasn't able to fulfill the dreams that she had set out. You know, I think, which makes her still a good role model for science-minded folks and women wanting to go into STEM.

She is clearly very brilliant. I think she got bad money too fast. Like, she had bad men involved too early. Like, if it had just been her and, you know, found other women. Okay. Like, just women are better than men. If it had just been her and found other women, just women are better than men. It would have just probably been for the better of all, but you have these loser old guys who are like,

how can we turn her whatever idea into a cash cow? Into money for us. When she's like, I just want to help. Well, now that you both know about Ann Wojcicki's 23 and Me Troubles, would you consider this a baby flop, a big flop, or a mega flop? It depends on who we're talking about the flop for. Are we talking about the individual?

Are we talking about Anne? Either one. I think the company is a pretty solid mid-sized flop in that it was the promise of some sort of health advancements that our country is never going to provide for us and was sort of a quixotic way to look at healthcare and knowing about your own health and being in control of your own health in a way that as Americans, I don't think we're ever going to seize upon

before our whole country collapses. Okay, Laura, lay down. For them, I think a pretty mid-sized flop. I also think the data breach is massive. Who knows what they use those things for, but it's like, that's a huge violation to a lot of the country. For her personally, as long as she's not utterly destitute, I think you're right.

You've changed, but you've turned my thinking a little bit in the past 45 seconds to a minute. She was out to do the right thing. I'm gonna give her a baby flop and the company a pretty medium flop. All right. Laura ate that. Like, like literally front to back, all the flops.

I don't think there's any, it's only a major flop like headline wise, I think because of like, but that data breach didn't even sound that bad, like I haven't yet to be personally affected. We'll see how it like filters through in the years to come. But she was doing what she thought was right the whole time. It's those bigger businesses that have had massive fails. 23andMe was like a part of pop culture for a while. Yeah.

I don't think it was just like in and out. So, yeah. Well, thank you so much to our guests who are definitely not clones. Kevin Sullivan and Laura Peek for joining us here on The Big Flop. And of course, thanks to all of you for listening and watching. If you're enjoying the show, please leave us a rating and review or subscribe. We'll be back next week with another flop. Britney Spears will forever be an icon.

Her first ex-husband, Kevin Federline, wanted the same status, but he just couldn't make that happen. That's right, we're talking about the infamous Kay Fed. Bye! Bye! Bye bye! Miss K-Fed. Bye members can listen ad-free on Amazon Music. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short survey at Wondery.com slash survey.

The Big Flop is a production of Wondery and At Will Media, hosted by Misha Brown, produced by Sequoia Thomas, Harry Huggins, and Tina Turner, written by Anna Rubinova and Luke Burns, engineered by Zach Rapone, with support from Andrew Holzberger. The video podcast is edited by Olivia Vessel. Managing producer is Molly Getman. Executive producers are Kate Walsh and Will Mulnaty for At Will Media.

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This assailant pulls out a weapon and starts firing at him we're talking about the CEO of the biggest private health insurance corporation in the world. And the suspect has been identified as Luigi Nicholas manjoni became one of the most divisive figures in modern criminal history was targeted premeditated and meant to sow terror. I'm Jesse Weber host of Luigi produced by law and crime and twist this is more than a true crime investigation we explore

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