The Big Flop - Ashlee Simpson: The Great Lip Sync Debate with Yamaneika Saunders and Isabel Hagen | 17

Episode Date: January 15, 2024

At only 20 years old, Ashlee Simpson was already a star, and her parents were raking it in. When she was asked to perform on Saturday Night Live alongside host Jude Law, she and her entourage were stoked. But the only thing that rocked that night was her career...as it fell off a cliff. Ashlee's lip-syncing catastrophe follows her to this day - but there's more to the story. Her own family pushed her to perform despite diagnosed vocal problems, which left Ashlee completely unprepared when the PR disaster struck.Comedians Yamaneika Saunders (Life & Beth, Broad City) and Isabel Hagen (The Tonight Show, Is A Violist) join Misha to pick up the pieces of Ashlee Simpson's big SNL flop.Follow The Big Flop on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to The Big Flop early and ad-free on Wondery+. Join Wondery+ in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Wondery Plus subscribers can listen to The Big Flop early and ad-free. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. On the morning of October 23rd, 2004, Ashley Simpson wakes up with a sore throat. Normally, not a huge deal, but today, she's supposed to perform on Saturday Night Live. Ashley, who's only 20 years old, is the younger sister of bombshell singer Jessica Simpson and daughter of Joe Simpson, an absolute stage dad. Joe is responsible for Ashley in more ways than one. He's not just Ashley's father and biggest fan. He's her manager and architect of her career. Ashley croaks through her routine. Dress rehearsal does not go well. SNL producers get nervous,

so a doctor is called to help. But the doc only brings bad news. Ashley might severely damage her voice if she pushes too hard. Backing out of the show would be best. Or she could use a backing track. Ashley turns to the one person she trusts the most. Her dad. Excuse me, her manager. Joe insists the show must go on.

And by telling Ashley to take this risk, Joe seems to be gambling everything his family has worked for. And worse, he's subjecting his daughter to one of the worst public embarrassments in entertainment history. Saturday Night Live is 90 minutes of flying without a net, as they found out last Saturday night when the musical guest, Ashley Simpson, walked off the set in the middle of her performance because of a lip-syncing miscue. All right, well, on a Monday, I am waiting. Tuesday, I am fading. So go the lyrics to Ashley Simpson's hit song, Pieces of Me. But today, on a Sunday, she's got to be cringing. I basically croak.

Like, I am grabbing my throat. It was hurting me so bad, and I couldn't believe that this was happening on Saturday Night Live. We are on a sinking ship. From Wondery and At Will Media, this is The Big Flop, where we chronicle the greatest flops, fails, and blunders of all time. I'm your host, Misha Brown,

social media superstar and aspiring nepo baby at Don't Cross a Gay Man. And today, we are piecing together Ashley Simpson's lip-sync fail that rocked SNL. Hello, I'm Emily, and I'm one of the hosts of Terribly Famous, the show that takes you inside the lives of our biggest celebrities. And they don't get much bigger than the man who made badminton sexy. OK, maybe that's a stretch, but if I say pop star and shuttlecocks, you know who I'm talking about.

No? Short shorts? Free cocktails? Careless whispers? Okay, last one. It's not Andrew Ridgely. Yep, that's right. It's Stone Cold icon George Michael. From teen pop sensation to one of the biggest solo artists on the planet, join us for our new series, George Michael's Fight for Freedom. From the outside, it looks like he has it all. But behind the trademark dark sunglasses is a man in turmoil. George is trapped in a lie of his own making

with a secret he feels would ruin him if the truth ever came out. Follow Terribly Famous wherever you listen to your podcasts or listen early and ad-free on Wanderie Plus on Apple Podcasts or the Wondery app. On our show today, we have an amazing comedian who you might recognize from The Tonight Show or from Life and Beth. It's Yamanika Saunders. Welcome to the show. Thank you for having me. And our other guest today is a musician who has a freaking master's degree in viola performance. And yes, she does mix that viola in with her stand-up sets. It's Isabel Hagen. Welcome.

Thank you. Thanks for having me. I'm so excited. I went to school and I was a bassoon major. So I think it's so cool that you play viola. That's so cool that you played bassoon. It's like the viola of woodwinds. Yamanika, do you have any favorite celebrity fails? Beyonce, when she fell down. Those flighty steps.

But it was like, even that was magic. I don't know. You know what I'm saying? Like, can she fail? Even her fails are perfect. We're today talking about Ashley Simpson. And to fully understand what happened that famous night, we need to go back to where it all began.

Ashley Simpson was born in 1984 to parents Joe Simpson and Tina Ann Drew. Like many stage parents, Ashley's dad, Joe, was an aspiring performer himself. He even had some talent, winning a high school acting competition in Texas, a huge state, and earning a scholarship, but it wasn't enough to launch Joe's career. But while studying drama at Baylor University, he had to move back home to support his family. So he married young, became a Baptist minister, as you do, that famous pipeline. It probably did help that he could vocally project.

He and his wife, Tina, had two precocious daughters, Jessica and Ashley. And when his oldest daughter, Jessica, started showing an interest in showbiz, Joe was eager to take advantage, shall we say. Are we missing some stuff? All of a sudden, he went from high school to community college to scholarship to babies. It's all over the place, right? This is why you got to focus in. You got to put the kids to the side, the wife to the side. You got to leave them.

Abandon them. You know what I mean? That's got to be your backstory. You have to abandon your entire family for fame. I mean, yeah. I wish he had done that. Then we wouldn't have to deal with Jessica Simpson. Not that I don't like her, but she was the reason why we had to wear these clogs for like five years. These little platform clogs she would wear all the time. Girls would break in their leg. It was the worst. And the shorts all the time. Girls would break in they leg. It was the worst. And the shorts, the short shorts. That's her fault too. Oh yeah, the short shorts.

Her whole outfit was like, hee haw. Yeah, it sure was. Isabel, are either of your parents stage parents? I mean, my dad would come to all of my viola slash violin lessons, but he would sleep through them all. So I feel like he was like stage parent light. You know, like he would just like read a book and fall asleep in the chair and be like, all right, I guess she's doing pretty well. You know.

So blossoming into a young woman, Jessica gained attention in the gospel circuit for her beautiful voice and her beauty. She records a self-titled album called Jessica. She named her first gospel album Jessica? What happened to the Lord? What happened to the Lord? She just moved him straight off the album? That's crazy. I know, right?

Jessica, you couldn't put Jesus instead? The gospel studio that recorded the album ended up not putting it out, so Joe just ends up selling the album on preaching trips he was taking. But a track from that gets Jessica enough attention to sign with Columbia Records, the Holy Grail. That's crazy. Which goes on to produce her debut studio album, Sweet Kisses, in 1999. I feel like we're missing something again in this story. Like, there had to be some favors exchanged or like a friend of a dad.

Who passed that along? What deaconess or deacon or trustee of the church had access to Columbia Records? That's crazy. Crazy. Well, here's a sample of Jessica's hit, I Think I'm in Love. Do you remember that song? I remember it because that was the beginning of white girls singing way too hard. That was the beginning. Like every white girl was out here hitting those. They esophagus was bursting all over the place.

She didn't need to sing that. She should have sung something else. Isabel, what do you think? Do you see the star power in that song? I see a pretty blonde woman who, no, I mean, sure. But like, why her? You know, she's got lucky, but she's definitely like a good performer. You know, she has a presence and either is auto-tuned or hitting the notes in tune. So that's something. Yeah. Listen, the time she was trying to pop was the time that Britney and Christina and all them was popping and she got lost in the sauce. You understand? It can only be one blonde white girl

at one time and Christina Aguilera had to dye her hair brunette so she wasn't getting clogged up in there. So Joe Simpson resigns from his church job and moves the whole Simpson family from Texas to sunny Los Angeles, where Jessica's career takes off. Now, this story is about Ashley, though. Even Ashley's story is about Jessica. It really is. So we're going to zip through the rest of Jessica's career with a little game. We're going to zip through the rest of Jessica's career with a little game. This is called Judge Not Lest She Be Judged.

The early aughts were treacherous for female celebrities caught between post-feminist raunchiness and Bush-era purity politics. There was no, quote, correct way to exist. So I'm going to ask you about a moment in Jessica's career, and you tell me why she was harshly judged for it. So, question one. Jessica had to leave the Christian music circuit because parishioners were complaining about what? Her over-sexualized outfits. Yeah, her breasts were distracting them from the divine.

They always do that at the church. They always skip the part of the Bible that says, if the man can't control himself because whatever he sees, he needs to mash his eyeballs out. So, mash your eyeballs out. Or just cover them. Don't cover the boobs. Cover your eyes. Right. So her dad, Joe Simpson, pitches MTV a reality show about her marriage to 98 Degrees frontman Nick Lachey.

It turns into a huge hit and massively boosts her record sales. What private element of Jessica's life are audiences particularly excited about? Her having sex because she was a virgin.

Yes! Yamanika, you are so good at remembering this. I was there. I was there. Yeah, you're exactly right. It was her virginity. So she was one of the first pop stars to wear a purity ring. And like, skeevy audiences could not get enough of that story. All right, one final question on Jessica. Columbia Records and Father of the Year, Joe Simpson, lean into dumb blonde branding. Is this the chicken of the sea question? Okay, right. Wait, what's the chicken of the sea question? She was like, tuna's chicken of the sea. She thought it was chicken's damn name, the damn water,

and they just called them tunas. Well, for all of our listeners who might not remember this chicken of the sea moment that we're talking about, we do have a clip. So let's take a listen. Is this chicken what I have or is this fish? I know it's tuna, but it says chicken by the sea. Is that stupid? She knew it was stupid. You know, somebody prompted her for that. She can't be that damn dumb. Why does she have this kind of money and that beautiful couch? And she don't even know what tuna is. I'm doing something wrong with my life. Isabel, do you remember that moment?

So I have a very sparse memory of all of this. I couldn't even tell you who Nick Lachey. I'm like, he's the love is blind guy. I don't know. I didn't even know he was the one that Jessica Simpson was with. He was one of the 98 Degrees. Yeah, see, I'm like, he's the love is blind guy. I don't know. I didn't even know he was the one that Jessica Simpson was one of the 98 degrees. Yeah. See, I'm like, what's the night? What are the 90? That's my chicken of the sea. I'm like, I don't even know. All right. So now that we're refreshed on Jessica's career, we can turn back to the rest of the Simpson family.

So having created a star out of one of his children, Joe believes that he can do it again, which brings us to Jessica's younger sister, Ashley. By 15, Ashley starts appearing in Jessica's videos as a backup dancer, and Joe's dream of turning his entire family into a money-making factory is finally within reach. While her sister impresses everyone with her pipes, Ashley starts singing as well. So Ashley has the chops, but needs her own image. To avoid comparisons to her platinum blonde sister,

Ashley dyes her hair brown and her music is much more emo or quirky. I do really appreciate this about Ashley because like in comparison to like Jamie Lynn Spears, who was trying to become a Britney clone, it did seem like Ashley was just trying to make her own identity and do the best she could.

You know who was successful at doing that? Was Solange Knowles. Yeah. This is basically Solange's story because she was also a dancer with Destiny's Child, went on. I think her first album was not much of a hit. And then she came back, revamped, had the baby. You know what I'm saying?

So yeah, when you have a superstar sister, you have to put yourself in a lane away from them because the comparisons are going to be there. Well, let's do a little style comparison between these two. So Yamanika, can you read these lyrics from Jessica Simpson's I Want to Love You Forever? Pour yourself all over me. Oh, my God. And I'll cherish every drop here on my knees. What is happening here?

What is happening here? I want to love you forever. And this is all I'm asking of you. 10,000 lifetimes together. Girl, don't nobody want to spend that kind of time with no man. Is that so much for you to do? That's extremely too much. Who wrote this?

Some woman in her 40s that never found love is trying to revamp herself through this young girl. This is not the lyrics of a young girl. On her knees, cherishing every drop. That sounds wild. Okay, now, I mean, let's hear what her sister is singing about. Okay, now, I mean, let's hear what her sister is singing about. So, Isabel, can you read these lyrics from an Ashley Simpson song about her sister called Shadow? Living in the shadow of someone else's dream, trying to find a hand to hold, but every touch felt cold to me. I mean, I feel like she was being a little dramatic. Don't feel sorry for me. You know, I hate when people complain and then you say sorry

and then they're like, don't feel sorry, I'm fine. And it's like, well, then what did you want me to say? This is like your most annoying friend. Yeah. That thing sounded like a manifesto if you ask me. It's crazy. There's a thousand more pages of that. Yeah.

Yeah. There's a thousand more pages of that. So while her sister Jessica is busy being the butt of every 2003 blonde joke, Ashley gets a big break as a VJ on MTV's Total Request Live, or TRL, a daily music video countdown show where fans vote to support their favorite artists. So Ashley is 19, just barely old enough to vote, and she already has her own MTV reality series. And The Ashley Simpson Show, in contrast to Newlyweds, a series about marriage, is about the rise of Ashley as a performer.

So let's watch a quick clip of the first episode of her show. I just signed a record deal with Geffen Records. This is not the end, not the beginning of the end, but the end of the beginning. It's a bit scary because I have so much work to do. There's so many other things when it comes to doing your album. There's writing, there's recording, there's marketing, there's styling, there's all these photo shoots. How early 2000s was that? I know, the scarf, all of it was crazy. The shredded hair, it was insane.

Yeah, that time of reality TV was so crazy. People need to not have a father named Joe, I think. You see what I'm saying? Because the Jacksons had Joe, she got Joe. Joe was sitting there looking like a lizard behind her, waiting for her to sign that contract so he could start getting his 10, 20, 30%. Ashley's first album called Autobiography

comes out in July, tops the charts, and goes triple platinum. With the album's success and her show being slightly more popular than Jessica's in the ratings, Ashley is now Joe's godsend. Her lead single, Pieces of Me, hits the top five and goes gold. So let's take a listen to this song that was everywhere in 2004. What do we think?

Is it a banger? Yeah, I mean, I know we're talking about singing too loudly, but I feel like nowadays it's like the breathiness is all we get. And I was like, oh, I kind of miss like just like singing out like that. I was like, where have I heard that song? I didn't catch none of that song. And then I said, oh, my God, I remember I heard that in H&M. If you can sing a song that they'll play at a clothing store, why make music for people?

Make music for advertisement. Pieces of Me, I would have sold that to reese's pieces this is a song pieces of me reese's pieces that's where the money's at them jingles and jingles elevator music and clothing stores yeah it reminded me of like going through an h&m and being like i'm gonna buy that little top and i'm going to get that guy. And like, yeah, this is my life. Yeah. Well, Ashley seems to be surpassing the success of her golden older sister. And like Icarus, Ashley is flying very close to the sun.

And when she touches it, her career bursts into flames. By 2004, Saturday Night Live has been on the air for 30 years. As a cultural institution, it is untouchable. We all know what a powerhouse star maker that it is. And during the Bush presidency, SNL is absolute must-see TV. Cast members around this time include two future late-night hosts and half a dozen future TV and movie stars. And the musical lineups are stacked. The performers preceding Ashley include the Black Eyed Peas, Nora Jones, and Janet Jackson. So Ashley is just about to turn 20, like an infant, and is asked to perform on SNL. Seriously, like, this is a big deal. And young performers are plentiful, but SNL's executive producer, Lorne Michaels, feels they don't have the experience necessary to go with the flow during high-stakes live performances.

I agree with him. Yeah, like, where millions of people are watching and judging. Like where millions of people are watching and judging. By 2004, it's only her, Avril Lavigne, and two of the Hanson brothers who belong to a strange category of musical acts on SNL. The kind who can't buy themselves a drink after the show. You know, I agree with Lauren on the fact that if they're young, they should at least have already done a few performances live somewhere else and they should be running around. I don't think she had the touring experience or any of that because it is live television. And if you can't go with the flow, you're going to have a problem. That's so true.

Isabel, have you ever had an experience performing where you've been really nervous or kind of had a flub? Yeah, I mean, I've just botched so many performances. Like when I was just a violist, my hands would shake uncontrollably. And I've like, I don't know, it never feels that dramatic because there's always like two people in a classical music concert audience. So you're just like, sorry, you know, and they're coughing anyway. And so the stakes aren't that. Right. Your dad read the book and Joe's like, hey, do I have a new viola talent over here? I can... When I was on tour with Cirque du Soleil and I was performing for 10,000 people, I was

emceeing this one part of the show. And my job was to announce the city that we were in. And I said the wrong city. And 10,000 people booed me. Oh, that's crazy. What city was it? Nobody cares about it unless it's New York, 10,000 people booed me. Oh, that's crazy. What city was it? Nobody cares about it unless it's New York, LA, and Chicago. Beat it.

Girl, it was somewhere in Ohio. Oh, no. Please. Beat it. I know, but they live in Ohio, so we'll give them a break. Yeah. That's all they have is like the kid in Cirque du Soleil. All right.

So on October 23rd of 2004, the day of SNL's taping, Ashley wakes up not feeling good. She says acid reflux. Girl, I have acid reflux, okay? Now what are you doing with acid reflux at 20 years old? Right? It seems wild. But there is a little bit of proof of this because Ashley's reality show is filming and they later air this scene of her and her friends eating breakfast the morning of the show. I wake up the day of a Saturday night

performance and my voice was extremely raspy. I didn't think it was going to be such a big deal. Who loved pancakes? Mmm. Mmm. Mmm. Whoa. I'm gonna eat that. That's great. Oh my gosh.

Yo, I feel like we're at Willy Wonka. This is butter. I've never had butter that tasted good. Should I just pour the syrup on it? Of course they bring us out chocolate instead of coffee. Alright. I hope my voice gets better. I know.

It doesn't sound very good. I'm full voice gets better. I know. I don't sound very good. I'm fooled. Me too. Okay, so they are children. She doesn't know how butter and pouring syrup on pancakes works. They are getting hot chocolate delivered to their room instead of coffee because they're babies. So that really makes me feel some type of way for her. Yeah, she clearly didn't have, like, good guidance, because

if her voice was raspy that morning, they should have had her on vocal rest, drinking, like, Manuka honey, I don't know, like, something. But she was just, like, talking about the pancake, like, stuff that she did not need to be talking about. Right, while she's filming a reality show. Yeah. Everything she was

shoving down her throat was something that was going to make it worse. Well, this reality show isn't the only evidence presented to us post-floppiness. So coincidentally, during Ashley's dress rehearsal later that day, 60 Minutes is shadowing Lorne Michaels and gets some of it on tape. So here's a 60 Minutes reporter backstage watching Ashley rehearse. Everything is going smoothly until Ashley Simpson rehearses. When she finishes, she rushes out and darts past us in tears, upset about her voice. But she was like belting in the dress. Yeah.

That's like the first rule. You always fake it in the dress for singing. What do they call it? Mark it or whatever. Mark it. Yeah. Yeah. Here's the thing. Lauren's happy. This man's been through dinosaurs all the way up to the Jetsons. He's going to outlive everybody. He's seen it. He's like, I told y'all not to book these 12 year olds, but y'all did it. So somebody got fired behind the scenes. We just don't know who it was. Yeah.

What would you do at this point if you were Ashley? I would sing and I would start everything off going, listen, you know, I'm here tonight. My throat is going through it, but let's do it. You got to let people know. People can have sympathy for that. Well, Isabel, what would you do if you were dadager Joe? If I were Joe, I'd lock my daughter in a room and not let her speak and get her help.

I would do whatever I had to do. Well, they do try. A doctor suggests sitting this one out, or perhaps a steroid injection directly into her vocal cords. But Ashley's dad, Joe, tells her to sing with a backing track. She'd be singing over her own vocals to put less straight on her voice. This is Joe's, I mean, Ashley's big dream

to be on SNL. So she can't pass this up, right? But the problem is, nobody tells big boss Lorne that this is the plan. That's crazy. At least, that's what he later claims. When things go wrong, it's easy to put the blame on the Simpson clan instead of SNL. So the show starts, as expected, cold open, live from New York, etc., etc.

A monologue and some sketches later, it's time for Ashley's first performance. A monologue and some sketches later, it's time for Ashley's first performance. She performs her big hit, Pieces of Me, without a hitch, or so it seems. Then comes the big moment, Ashley's second and most regrettable performance. The lights come up on Ashley and her band for their performance of Autobiography. But when the music kicks up, something's not right. The song is oddly familiar. The vocal backing track hits, and it's clearly Pieces of Me, the song they already performed earlier in the night.

And not only that, but Ashley's mic isn't anywhere near her mouth as her voice rings out across the theater. On a Monday, I am waiting. Tuesday, I am fading. The drummer just keeps on drumming as Ashley looks around, confused. Panic begins to settle in, but no one comes to her rescue. So she starts jumping around, doing a weird little hoedown dance, kicking her legs out side to side. Oh, God. And as it becomes increasingly clear,

no one will be swooping in to fix this situation. Ashley, mortified, exits stage right. And after a truly excruciating almost 30 seconds, they finally have the good sense to cut to commercial. Oh, God, I feel so bad for her. I mean, it really wasn't her fault. Yeah, I don't know how I would have handled it. You know, she's young. Yeah, I would have been embarrassed too. So I do feel for her. Part of me wants to know why they didn't just stop the song and be like, oops,

we started the wrong song. Right. That's, yeah. Like it just kept going. And she was, I feel like she was kind of waiting for them to stop it. But then she just got blamed for lip syncing. But really it was a huge technical screw up. Yeah. I'd have been like, that was just a back and forth. I have no idea what they, they were so busy trying to learn a song. They decided to play, I don't know what they was doing,

but I was ready to sing live, honey. That's what I would have said. I wanted to see like a save the last dance, like ballet improvised number. Yeah, where were the pirouettes? What's with the hoedown? At the end of the show, Ashley tries to do damage control with some help from Jude Law.

So let's watch the SNL goodbye credits. Ladies and gentlemen, what can I say? Live TV. Exactly. I feel so bad. My band started playing the wrong song. And I didn't know what to do, so I thought I'd do a hoedown. I'm sorry. Ashley Simpson! The cast! Everybody here! We now know, but, like, how do we think this is going to go over?

Blaming it on the band. First of all, I wouldn't even have came back out. What? I would not have come back out, honey. She gets mega points for me because I would have been like, absolutely not. And tell Lauren he can take the money back. I didn't even deposit it yet. Thanks for the pancakes and syrup and the hot cocoa in the hotel room. Yeah. I mean, I remember when this happened and I think I was in

high school or I don't know, I was young and all my friends were like, oh my God, did you see what happened last night? And it was all about like how dumb of her for lip syncing. Like that was the narrative. It was like all against her. I'm so curious how something like this would be reacted to today. There's like a little more acceptance. And also like these flops are more celebrated because it would have gone viral. And it's like, it's almost like good to have these flops now. Whereas maybe, I don't know how Lauren felt about it back back then but he probably wasn't happy yeah probably not he might have been a little disappointed but

it brings eyes i think that really popped the musical performances because it's like oh you don't know what's gonna happen yeah that's so true it sucks because it was like ridicule for her but like a victory for the show in a way. Yeah, just not fair. And unfortunately, the apology only made things worse for her. So Ashley blames her band for playing the wrong song. And to be fair, it does seem like the drummer messed up. But as the lead, it's just not a great look to blame your band. And unfortunately for Ashley, America doesn't accept her apology. In the pop culture media, the fallout was immediate and brutal. So even though Ashley's reality show goes through everything from the acid reflux to her dad's insistence of using a backing track, it seems to be Ashley's PR blame game that people really hate.

So, like, why do we think people get so invested? Yeah. I mean, gossip is just invigorating, whether it's about your friend or about a celebrity. It's not like I want to like spread the hurt, but like hearing about it, it's like a sweet salve that goes away very quickly, but it's like a distraction from your own self-hatred. you know all right well later that week Ashley calls into TRL to explain that her chronic acid reflux

caused her to lose her voice the night of the performance and her dad manager made her use a backing tape. She specifically blames her drummer for the mistake, saying that he played the wrong cue. So let's listen to Ashley calling into TRL. So I think I just froze and, you know, all my fans, like they know they've kind of my shows, I never, you know, sing to a backing track or anything like that. Why didn't you just start again from the beginning and do the song that you were supposed to do? I think all of us went in a state of shock. And I was like, oh my God, what did I just do?

The thing is, like, she's right. One of SNL's directors years later confirms that the drummer was the one that made the mistake. With the last minute plan, it just, it didn't do much good for Ashley back in 2004 to like come out with that information later. And Lorne Michaels blamed Simpson, saying he didn't know that she was planning to lip sync. And he probably should have blamed her dad, but Ashley took the heat.

So does blaming all of this on Ashley seem fair? Shouldn't Lorne get a piece of it too? Oh, you trying to end our careers? She's like, no, Lauren, you're a soul. Whatever that man said is whatever it is. Thank you, Lauren. I don't care. We love you, Lauren.

You think I'm going to kill my career by something to happen? That girl that moved on, got married. Oh my gosh, so funny. Well, Ashley becomes an easy punchline across the media landscape. Conan O'Brien, Family Guy, even SNL themselves would go on to parody the event. She was ridiculed as a cheater

who didn't take responsibility for her mistakes, which seems like a lot. But a few months after her embarrassing appearance on SNL, Ashley tries to promote her next album, I Am Me, but it fails to reach the heights of autobiography, selling only a third of what her debut album sold. But just like Jessica's rising career pulled Ashley up, the reverse would also prove to be true.

The careers of both sisters start tanking simultaneously. Ashley's third album, Bittersweet World, sells very poorly. And America starts getting tired of Jessica's celeb-reality schtick. A year after Ashley's SNL flub, Jessica gets divorced from Nick Lachey, the guy she had a whole TV show with, and Newlyweds is canceled, and the Simpsons are nudged out of the spotlight for something cooler and shinier. It's unfortunate, but Ashley was left out there by herself. There's a number of things that they could have done. They could have, the next week, guess what? Who's back? Or they could have had her come out and sing something or make a statement about the throat or whatever. She should have addressed that thing and dealt with that thing and been on interview junkets, talking to everybody about what happened from Ellen to Oprah and owning up to it.

Yeah. But, I mean, think about the time, right? We had the demise of Britney Spears and Tara Reid and Amanda Bynes and all of this. And that's big money. So I'm sure there wasn't a lot of incentive to like keep building this little girl up. Yeah. But after all was said and done, not all ended poorly for this crew. So let's do a little, where are they now?

Golden Child Jessica, she got her own comeback. Immediately after her 2005 divorce, she starts a fashion line in a few short years she builds an empire off of her relatable comfy girl persona with dozens of licenses for all kinds of wearables like shoes leggings jackets party dresses etc and at the height of its popularity, the brand brings in a billion dollars in sales. I got one of the hats. Yeah. Joe Simpson is doing okay.

Even though he's now divorced from Jessica and Ashley's mom, Tina, his career in Hollywood has continued. Unfortunately, he's had several run-ins with cancer in the last decade, but treatment has been successful. And on the bright side, it seems that his health troubles have helped him reconcile with his family to some extent. But Ashley, she's still out there. She performed as Roxy Hart in the production of Chicago. She had a couple of minor acting and hosting roles and starred in a short-lived reality

show with her second husband, Evan Ross, Diana Ross's son. But she's never really returned to the spotlight. She's still best known for her lip-sync controversy. But I will say, I went on her social media. I went on her Instagram. She's gorgeous as ever. And what I loved was in the

comments section, there are so many people begging her to come out with new music. She should. Yeah. I do have a couple of updates, some silver linings, if you will, from the lip sync scandal itself. In 2018, in an interview with Andy Cohen on Watch What Happens Live, Ashley did take ownership when he asked her who was at fault. Oh, me completely. I woke up and I had no voice. And then I should have said,

no, I will not go on. I will not do this. In 2005, Ashley made a triumphant return to SNL as a musical guest, paired with Napoleon Dynamite star John Heder. And nothing went wrong. Right. So nobody paid attention.

No one. But I feel like if she wanted to be in the spotlight again, now she would, because we have so much control now with our individual platforms to rewrite our story and take ownership. Maybe a part of her doesn't want that big spotlight anymore because of everything she went through.

Sure. And the ridicule. I mean, it can really break you. Somebody's got to go in that spot. Yeah, you take it. Come on. I'll be your Joe. On a Sunday. I'll do a hoedown. Yeah. So now that you both know about the whole start to finish of the Ashley Simpson saga, would you consider this a baby flop, a big flop, or a mega flop? Would you consider this a baby flop, a big flop, or a mega flop? To me, it is a baby flop, right?

But it was received as a mega flop. Yeah. Right. It wasn't like she actually performed badly. She didn't actually really mess up. She didn't even perform. She didn't even do it, you know? I just feel like it wasn't her fault. That also why it was a baby flop you know yeah I agree

I really feel for Ashley and I hope if she feels like it she makes more music and if she doesn't then I wish her nothing but success well thank you so much to our incredible guests Yamanika Saunders and Isabel Hagen for joining us here on the big flop and thanks to all

of you for listening we'll be back next week to talk about the short-sighted history of Google Glass. Bye. Goodbye. Bye. If you like The Big Flop, you can listen early and ad-free on Wondery+. Join Wondery in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Prime members can listen ad-free on Amazon Music. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short survey at wondery.com slash survey. The Big Flop is a production of Wondery and Atwill Media,

hosted by me, Misha Brown. Produced by Sequoia Thomas, Harry Huggins, and Drew Beebe, with support from Tina Turner. Thank you. Legal support by Carolyn Levin of Miller, Korzenik, Summers, and Raymond. Producers for Wondery are Matt Beagle and Grant Rudder. Senior Story Editor is Phyllis Fletcher. Managing Producer is Ricky Wiebe. Music Supervisor is Scott Velasquez for Frizzin' Sink. Our theme song is Sinking Ship by Cake. And Executive Producers are Lizzie Bassett, Morgan Jones, and Marshall Louis for Wondery.