The Big Flop - Dance Moms: Abby Lee Miller Behind Barres with Ronnie Karam and Ben Mandelker | 34

Episode Date: May 6, 2024

Abby Lee Miller was the force behind the hit reality show "Dance Moms" where she hurled insults - and occasionally chairs - to motivate future stars like JoJo Siwa and Maddie Ziegler. But while Abby was rising to the top of her own pyramid, she was also choreographing a little thing called financial fraud. Find out what happens when you text your accountant that you "need a little money laundering."Ronnie Karam and Ben Mandelker (Watch What Crappens) join Misha to revel in the dizzying details of the Abby Lee Miller story.Follow The Big Flop on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to The Big Flop early and ad-free on Wondery+. Join Wondery+ in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Wondery Plus subscribers can listen to The Big Flop early and ad-free. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple podcasts. On an ordinary fall evening in the early 2010s, the Honorable Judge Thomas Agresti is presiding over some R&R time. After a tough day at work being a judge and all that serious stuff, he's at home, lounging on the couch, watching TV. Cable, of course, he's no cord cutter. Agresti channel-serves, like you do, until he happens upon the Lifetime

Network. He stops a moment and realizes the show he clicked to, Abbey's Ultimate Dance Competition, stars a person from one of his cases. Agresti cleans his glasses. Yes, that's her. That's Abbey Lee Miller, the dance instructor whose case in his bankruptcy court is almost wrapped up. Well, I'll be damned, he thinks to himself.

Didn't she claim she was swimming in debt and making only $8,000 a month or something? Maybe nine? Huh. A TV star definitely makes more than that. Her financial disclosure statement has already been approved. She's about to be off the hook at her hearing next week. And then an ad plays on TV. Abby is appearing on American Idol? All right, that does it. Nobody dupes Agresti and gets away with it. Does Abby really think judges don't have cable TV?

Well, this scuff law is about to see what happens when you get between a judge and his evening relaxation. Better cancel that hearing and launch an investigation before dinner gets cold. ["The Daily Show Theme"] Moms come from all over to bring their children to me. Doesn't it make you feel stressed just to see that clip? It is very stressful.

Almost as stressful as a 20-count federal indictment. I can make you or I can break you. The dance instructor is charged with hiding a whopping $775,000. She faces several years in prison, hundreds of thousands of dollars in fines. Is Orange the new black? For her, probably. We are on a sinking ship. From Wondery and Atwill Media, this is The Big Flop, where we chronicle the greatest flubs, fails, and blunders of all time. I'm your host, Misha Brown, social media superstar

and top of the pyramid at Don't Cross a Gay Man. And today we're talking about one of the nastiest dance teachers to ever strut out of Pittsburgh and into prison, Abby Lee Miller of Dance Moms. Some stories were never meant to be heard. Beneath the visible world of parliaments, politicians and civil servants lies an invisible state filled with secret operatives playing to very different rules. From Wondery, I'm Indra Varma and this is The Spy Who. This month we open the file on Noor Anayat Khan, the spy who wouldn't lie.

Noor Anayat Khan, the spy who wouldn't lie. When Germany invades France, Noor and her family are forced to flee to Britain. But Noor decides she can't just sit out the war, so she accepts one of the most dangerous spy missions of World War II, a job that will put her deep into enemy territory. Follow The Spy Who now, wherever you listen to podcasts. Or you can binge the full season of The Spy Who Wouldn't Lie early and ad free with Wondery Plus. Looking for inspiration? Craving something new? When you visit Audible, there are endless ways to ignite your imagination. With over 750,000 titles, including bestsellers, there's

a listen for every type of listener. Discover all the best in audiobooks, podcasts, and originals featuring authentic Canadian voices and celebrity talent like Brendan Fraser and Luke Kirby's latest sci-fi adventure, The Downloaded. A first listen is waiting for you when you start your free trial at audible.ca. On our show today, I am so excited. We have Ben Mendelker and Ronnie Karam, hosts of the podcast about all things reality TV. Watch what crap ends. Welcome to the show. Well, hello. Thanks for having us. You both are connoisseurs of reality TV. So I have to ask, how familiar are you guys with Dance Moms?

We used to be TV bloggers and I was running the blog when this show came out. I thought it was ridiculous and stupid. I was like, no one's going to watch it. Turns out they had something. It's hard to believe it was a real show. I don't know who's worse. No, I mean, Abby Lee Miller's the worst. But the moms are also like fully deranged and they all have these haircuts, these just gone to like Marshall's haircuts.

And like, they're just screaming at Abby. And then they're also like competing on behalf of their daughters. I mean, I don't know how anyone, any of those children emerged from the show without being fully traumatized. All right. Well, for anyone listening who is not familiar with Dance Moms, let's hop into this. Dance Moms was a reality show that aired on Lifetime from 2011 all the way to 2019. And the woman who made the show a hit was Abby Lee Miller. Abby's on-screen antics, more than her teaching abilities, led to her success.

But her financial deception behind the scenes led to her downfall. Abby was born and raised in Pittsburgh, where her mom, Mary Ann, was a beloved dance instructor and taught generations of local dancers. Abby's mom didn't push her into dance or to be at the studio 24-7, but she was still drawn to dance. And she found that she was more of a talent for choreography than for performance. So, Abby helps her mom run her company and eventually takes over.

And in 1995, when she's about 30, Abby opens a brand new dance studio. She buys the land with her parents' life savings and then gets a loan for the building In 1995, when she's about 30, Abby opens a brand new dance studio. She buys the land with her parents' life savings and then gets a loan for the building for $525,000 with an interest rate of 9.75%. Wow. Which mobster did she buy this building off of? Well, fast forward a few years and Abby has instructed thousands of Pittsburgh locals, many of whom have become successful dancers and choreographers. However, during the Great

Recession of 2008, the economic downturn is too much for Abby's business and she can't keep up with her bills and taxes. But Abby has a possible opportunity that could solve all of her financial problems. An old friend from the dance competition circuit, John Corella, is now a TV producer. Abby complains, like she does, to John about all the drama she has with the mothers of her students, and John starts getting ideas. So in September of 2010, John pitches a dance competition reality series called Just Dance to a little-known production company. But while the show is being developed, financial woes continue to plague Abby. In December of 2010, she files for Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection, claiming

she has over $350,000 in debts. Luckily, the show John develops is sold to Lifetime and Abby is going to be on it. What could go wrong? Yeah, I mean, it sounds like a dream come true. Unfortunately, reality TV pays you $2. Especially at the beginning, right? Yes, and especially on Life, wasn't this a Lifetime show, right? Lifetime. Yeah, so in April of 2011, filming begins on Dance Moms.

As the title might suggest, Abby is not supposed to be a huge part of the show. It's supposed to be about the moms. Accordingly, they're not paying Abby very much. Estimates put her initial earnings around $1,500 per episode. Not exactly enough to dig her out of a financial hole. That's crazy. It's like she was in silent movies. I mean, what the?

Come on, this wasn't that long ago. That's insane. Although the dancers make even less, $1,000 per episode. Well, what do they do? They're kids. Shits in Pittsburgh. They don't deserve anything. They should work for free. They should work for the resume. But when Dance Moms premieres on Lifetime in July of 2011,

the show immediately gets noticed. Specifically, Abby. We're gonna play a clip. In the first episode, Abby kicks one dancer out for wearing socks to acrobatics class. A dangerous thing to have happen. And the dancer's mom interrupts the class to protest. Let's watch. You cannot take acrobatic class in socks.

That's pathetic. Go somewhere else. Take your money. Take your kid. Take your socks. Find another school. You keep telling her how stupid she is. in socks. That's pathetic. Go somewhere else. Take your money, take your kid, take your socks, find another school. You keep telling her how stupid she is.

She's not stupid. She just can't read. I am obsessed with the fact that during that entire scene, there's like this ominous chord playing like a... Yeah. Yes. And it's telling you the truth. That chord is trying to warn you. Get out. By the way, people at home didn't see this lady's hair. I mean, that's all you need to know about that lady. She looks like she just napped in a nest of pinecones

while her kid was in that class. How does this compare to what else was on TV in like 2011? Well, in terms of our world and the Real Housewives, we were seeing lots of wildness. You know, we've seen Ramona Singer terrorize half of Manhattan. We've seen Teresa Giudice flip a table. We've seen Nini Leakes read People for Filth. So we're used to it.

But what I don't think we often see such loud and sustained screaming as we see with Abby Lee Miller. I mean, because she really just, when she's up there, she is up there, it seems like, for the rest of the show, whereas the rest of the people on Bravo will have their moments, but then they recede back down. And I think there was always this idea of perfection on TV about moms and women and how women are portrayed,

and they're always like, the perfect mom and the perfect wife, and the husband's just a wacky teenager, or whatever that stereotype was that we had seen for so long that when we all saw our crazy ass mother out there fighting with the other moms from the junior league about the dumbest crap in the world, it was like the most liberating thing. Yeah.

Well, after seeing that fight, Lifetime knows they have a hit. Abby's a real character, callous, abrasive, and deeply weird. The show gets one million viewers for its premiere and a full season airs. To see how much you know about the show, let's play a game. It's time for some Dance Moms trivia. Whoever gets the most questions right avoids getting demeaned into oblivion by Abby Lee Miller. Ready?

Uh oh. Oh no. First question. Which of these is not one of Abby's actual catchphrases? A. Everyone's replaceable. B. Quitters are amateurs. Or C. Save your tears for the pillow. I'm going to say quitters are amateurs.

I'm going to go with C. Ben, you are correct. It is quitters or amateurs. Abby loves to say, save your tears for the pillow. Yeah, the feather. It comes up many, many times, and also everyone's replaceable. All right, second question. What ranking system does Abby use

to pit her dancers against each other? A, a ladder of success? B, crowning her favorites as queens and her least favorites as jesters? Or C, a simple pyramid? C. Yeah. C, the pyramid. Because I just watched a compilation of the greatest pyramid meltdowns of all time. And it was fantastic. Yeah, Abby said that whoever was second place on the pyramid was just, quote, the first

to lose. Sounds like someone's watched Hallidayga Nights. Yeah, they took those pyramids real seriously, specifically the moms. Pyramids. I mean, that was so brilliant. Just sticking paper onto a mirror and then revealing and watching everyone, all those Kate Gosselin haircuts just freak out. It was just like, it's brilliant.

All right, last question. Which of the following famous people did not get their start on Dance Moms? A. Olivia Rodrigo, B. Jojo Siwa, or C. Maddie Ziegler? A. A. Olivia Rodrigo, B, Jojo Siwa, or C, Maddie Ziegler. A. A. Yeah, Olivia Rodrigo. Maddie Ziegler was often the very top of that pyramid, and we'll hear more about her and Jojo later.

All right, we'll end with a little lightning round. I'm going to list off a bunch of quotes, and you need to tell me if Abby Lee Miller actually said it on camera. Okay. Alright, real or fake? Let me know when she's on Broadway. I'll get tickets. Real. Real. Real. I wasn't put on this earth to make her feel special. I was put on this earth to make her dance.

Real. Fake. Every week we put the trash out. Go! Real. Fake. Kids should cry when their arm is broken and hanging off or somebody died. Fake. Every week we put the trash out. Go! Real. Fake. Kids should cry when their arm is broken and hanging off, or somebody died. Real. Real, yeah.

And true. Yeah. Right away. Well, they're all real. Abby Lee Miller was a natural at those one-liners. She really was. Man, I wish she could just come back and train children again. I know.

I think she was so good. And look, everybody from that show ended up just fine. That's so right. Yeah. They all also ended up hating her, like these kids, even though they have very lucrative careers. Well, we all blame our mothers at the end of the day. Oh, yeah, we all blame our mothers at the end of the day. Oh, yeah, exactly. [♪THEME MUSIC PLAYING

[♪THEME MUSIC PLAYING Well, unfortunately, Abby is rewarded for her terrible behavior. The show ends its first season with almost two million viewers. So Abby has a real opportunity on her hands. She might be in debt for now, but if she plays her cards right, this show could be her meal ticket for life. In October of 2011, Abby gets a chance to renegotiate her contract for season two.

The big time, it's within reach. And even though she's still in bankruptcy court, all she has to do is tell the court that her situation's changed. And yet, she doesn't. Mmm. Do you have any idea of how much someone like Abby might be making from this show?

I'm going to say they offer her $125,000 per episode. Wow. Per episode. Wow, I was going to say 500 grand a season. Still great. You're $350k in debt. You know, you could do a lot of catching up with that kind of money. Yeah. Why base it on Housewives? Like Bravo shows and stuff like that, the first year they make hardly anything.

And then they'll go up, but still not that much money really comparatively. Well, the show does earn some criticism for particularly egregious moments. Like in season two, when an argument about missing rubber stoppers for a prop chair escalates to the point that that chair is thrown toward a child. But since we live in a terrible world, audiences eat this up. Season two's viewership is double that of season one. In another episode, nine-year-old Maddie Ziegler

is so stressed out, she forgets a routine on stage and has a panic attack. She begs to get another try. Cameras are in her face the entire time. But you know what? You also see how good she got. Okay? I saw that Sia video.

I know that she's very talented. Credit where credit is due. It's that monster under your bed. How has this not been turned into a Broadway musical, by the way? Like Dance Moms, the musical, and like this is the, is this like the break for Act One? Is Maddie Ziegler on stage forgetting everything and like what's gonna happen? Yeah. Abby claims her tirades are helping her pupils build character and years later, Abby claims

that producers were manipulating her into acting like a maniac. The producers haven't confirmed or denied that, but do you buy that? No, because I have heard from inside tracks that this is what she was like before the show ever came around. Forcing? No. Encouraging? Of course. Of course. You know, they were probably like, Oh, hey, Abby, how you doing? You know, I heard Christie talking some crap about you in the hallway.

Christie doesn't believe that kids should have to wear socks and acrobatics, you know. Good luck today. Have a good day. And just like enrage her, you know. Have either of you ever met Abby? We did actually. A long time ago, we went to a party in LA. It was like a reality star thing.

And Abby was there and she was sitting in this booth, like kind of by the stage by herself. And she was with this really hot guy, like this, like six foot four, blonde, young, just hottie. I don't know what was happening over there. But I ended up sitting next to her because Klondike was the sponsor of this party. And she's like, hey, where'd you get that? And I said, oh, you want a Klondike? I've got like four, because of course I did, because that's how I roll. And so I sat with her and we started eating Klondikes and talking shit about everybody in the party.

I mean, that's my kind of girl. Well, whoever's pulling the strings, the nonstop drama of Dance Moms gives Abby a spin-off show. And now she starts making real money. Abby's Ultimate Dance Competition launches in 2012. On it, Abby is a tough talking judge that isn't afraid to burst your bubble. It has two seasons and an average of one million viewers per episode.

Abby even starts to sell meme-worthy merchandise, like t-shirts that say, everyone's replaceable. Meanwhile, her bankruptcy settlement is still being worked out. Abby tells the court she's in talks for a reality show, downplaying the likelihood of its success. But her situation is much more lucrative than she's letting on. Abby's only real strategy seems to be the slim chance

that no one working her case owns a TV. And it seems that it was panning out. Do you remember her being this ubiquitous? Oh, absolutely. It was everywhere. The billboards in LA. I don't watch Lifetime, generally speaking. And this got into my world, into my life. I don't know how anyone doesn't just Google this person

and you will get all the information you need. Hi, I'm Anna. And I'm Emily. And we're the hosts of Terribly Famous, the show that takes you inside the lives of our biggest celebrities. And we are really excited about our latest season because we are talking about someone very, very special. You're so sweet. A fashion icon. Well, just put this on. A beautiful woman. Your words, not mine. Someone who came out of Croydon and took the world by storm. Anna, don't tell them

where I live. A muse, a mother and a supermodel who defined the 90s. I don't remember doing the last one. Wow Emily, not you. Obviously I mean Kate Moss. Oh, I always get us confused. Because you're both so small. How dare you. We are going to dive back into Kate's 90s heyday and her insatiable desire to say yes to absolutely everything life has to offer. The parties, the Hollywood heartthrobs, the rock star Bad Boys, have I said parties? You did mention the parties, but saying yes to excess comes at a price as Kate spirals out of control and risks losing everything she's worked for. Follow Terribly Famous wherever

you listen to podcasts or listen early and ad free on Wondery Plus on Apple Podcasts or the Wondery app. Are you tired of dating assholes? Do you want a Prince Charming? If so, we're filming a reality show. Sign up here. 12 American women are flown over to the UK for a Bachelor-style reality dating show. There are so many questions about a show like this because it's so odd. These women have been told that they were going to be dating the world's most eligible bachelor, Prince Harry.

What? Y'all playing with me, right? You can binge The Bachelor of Buckingham Palace exclusively on Wondry+. Join Wondry+, in Apple Podcasts or the Wondry app. The season finale of Abby's Ultimate Dance Competition drops on a Tuesday in December. By Thursday, Abby realizes her judge, Thomas Agresti, does own a TV. Just as Abby's bankruptcy filing is about to be sewn up, her judge coincidentally does some channel surfing

and spots Abby's ultimate dance competition on TV. He also learns she's going to be on American Idol. In Dance Moms Season 3, the maniac is back. So court transcripts make it pretty clear that he is pissed off that she's been hiding her income. The judge cancels her hearing and hauls her lawyers into court to berate them. Everyone's in big trouble, and Abby needs to set things right. Now, if cameras were allowed in the room for this,

would you watch? Oh, yeah. No, I don't like seeing bullies get yelled at. It's not fair. Well, now we've talked about Abby Lee Miller's outrageous behavior with her dancers and their mothers and the law, but one thing you probably wouldn't expect is that Abby is a very doting dog mom. She has a beloved Bichon Friis named Broadway Baby.

Is anyone surprised that it's a Bichon? Because... It's a Broadway Baby. It's a long name. Yeah. Well, Broadway Baby is introduced in the sixth episode of season one of Dance Moms. Abby says Baby's, quote, the best thing in her life because she doesn't roll her eyes when Abby is talking.

But the same week Abby's bankruptcy case goes sideways, Broadway Baby dies. And Abby really, really, really doesn't take it well. But Abby keeps filming Dance Moms because she's a star and the show must go on. It's almost a lying, apparently, because Abby still instructs her accountant to keep hiding money. We should note that Abby's accountant was never accused of any wrongdoing, despite Abby doing things like emailing her accountant to call the bankruptcy judge a dick. What?

That's my kind of girl, team Abby. Yeah, team Abby. I mean, but how good are you at not leaving a paper trail? Because she's not very good at it. That's the thing. I mean, she's not the best criminal, but one thing I've learned from like true crime, criminals are usually dummies. They're not the brightest people.

Yeah. I mean, at least the ones that get caught. But you know what? She was good at making dancers. Sounds like Broadway, baby, was the brains behind the operation. And once he was out of there, it all fell apart. Well, Abby needs a distraction. So in honor of her dearly departed pet,

Abby opens the Broadway Baby's dancewear and costume shop in a nearby town. And the guest of honor at the grand opening is none other than Broadway Baby. What? What? Wow. The sequel?

Let's roll the tape. And there she is, stuffed Broadway Baby. It's smell. Smelling to high heaven. That is not natural. It's like Stephen King Pet Cemetery. Great marketing. Come buy your costumes at this place with a dead dog.

Your kids will smell like my dead stuffed dog. Great job on the taxidermy though. It really looked like it was looking up at her. Yeah. So Abby's taxidermy Broadway baby. Right on a sparkly dog bed, right in the front of the ribbon cutting ceremony. If I ever get that done with my dog, I need him to slightly look away from me. He's always pretending he doesn't care. I need that kind of energy from a taxidermy dog. Well, Abby and the moms continue to clash episode to episode, season to season.

But in November of 2013, during the filming of the show's fourth season, things get physical between Abby and dance mom Kelly Hyland. A little backstory. Abby and Kelly have known each other since childhood. At age eight, Kelly was one of the first students at the Abby Lee Dance Company, but that personal history is thrown out the window during an argument about one of Kelly's daughters possibly being replaced in a routine. While Kelly attempts to pull her kids out of the dance company, Kelly and Abby get into

each other's faces. Abby literally gnashes her teeth at Kelly which leads Kelly to slap Abby and pull her by the hair. Let's listen to a quick montage of the fight. I said Brooke is your mother's finger pointer. Get your finger out of my face. Girls, out the room. Girls, out the room. Out the room.

Get away from me. Girls, out of the room. Girls, out of the room. Girls, out of the room. You're nuts. You're nuts. Hi, my name is Abby Lee Miller, and a woman just grabbed and pulled my hair and scratched my face. 500 pound hog pretending to eat me.

She's white, she has a black and gold dress on and she has short, like a haircut that's like cool and trendy, like it's long in the front and short in the back. She still liked her friend. Listen to that. I mean, she attacked me. She does look great though. Very trendy. Cool and trendy.

So Kelly eventually goes down to the station to answer questions. She's arrested and charged with assault. Good. It's in front of the kids. Yeah. That's what they're all like, get out of the room kids. Streaming as if like a volcano is about to go off. I mean, any scene I saw should have social services called.

And in this time, in this very sensitive time, they would be, I don't think this would ever fly now. You know, they're like, my child, my child can't hear it. What are you talking about, taxes? No child should have to hear about that. You know, they would freak out. But these kids were strong as hell, they didn't care. Well, they cried a lot.

They did cry a lot. Well, kids don't. Well, in February of 2014, Kelly sues Abby Lee Miller. So that's two court cases for Abby, including her bankruptcy. Kelly seeks $5 million for defamation and alleges that the dance instructor created emotional distress for her daughters, that they were subjected to abusive and unlawful working conditions. Like Abby, Kelly also claims that the production company coerced her into acting poorly and then trapped her in a room so she could get arrested. Again, the producers don't respond,

but Abby is served with legal papers from Kelly on camera during the filming of episode 2 of season 5. Even by reality show standards, being served on camera is like off the charts extra. I think, right? We don't see it often. Yeah. But when it happens, it's wild. Kelly's assault case was eventually dropped

and Abby and the production company ended up settling with Kelly out of court without admitting wrongdoing. But February of 2014 brings more grief for Abby. Her own dance mom, dance instructor, Marianne Lorraine Miller passes away. Some of the dance moms spread a rumor that Abby ends up stuffing the already stuffed

Broadway baby into the casket with her mom, Marianne. Oh, I thought you were gonna say the mom. I was so disgusted with the mom. The dogs, that's not so bad. That was mom. I was so disgusted with the mom. The dog? That's not so bad. That was sweet. Maybe the dog wasn't selling enough costumes. Get rid of it.

Everyone's replaceable. Yes. Well, in happier, less creepy news, Maddie Ziegler, Abby's star pupil, is discovered by pop singer Sia, as we've mentioned. Maddie gets her big break with Sia's chandelier. On the show, while Maddie is away filming another video for Sia, Abby introduces a new top to her pyramid. Her latest discovery from Abby's ultimate dance competition, Joelle Joanie, aka JoJo Siwa. JoJo later becomes famous as well.

She becomes a huge Nickelodeon star with a mega social media following. Even stars like JoJo aren't spared Abby's wrath. JoJo developed a bald spot on the side of her scalp caused by stress rash while she was filming Dance Moms. Well, it might be the ponytail too. I mean, those ponytails are very tight. That is a load-bearing ponytail. It's going to do some damage. But Maddie and Jojo aren't the only ones trying to make it big. Abby gets another spinoff, Abby's Studio Rescue, where she travels around the country

to lend a hand to struggling dance schools. Abby also plans to open a dance company in Los Angeles. Is it possible that there was Abby oversaturation, or do reality stars always have, like, these multiple irons in the fire? Reality life is short, you know? I think she was like, how many times am I gonna be in bankruptcy court?

Strike while the iron's hot, you know? She was gonna do whatever. I think the move to L.A LA is a big ballsy one. That's a big move from like a small town Pittsburgh studio to LA. They're not messing around over there. And they will not let you yell at them like that either. No.

And there's alternatives. Like maybe, I don't know what the deal is with Pittsburgh, but in LA, there's going to be multiple dance studios. So if you don't like the way your child is being yelled at, you can just go to a different dance studio and get yelled at by someone else. Season five of Dance Moms follows Abby as she sets up shop on the West Coast, opening the Abby Lee Dance Company in LA. She and the other stars of Dance Moms move from Pittsburgh all the way to LA

to follow Abby on her journey. Episode 5 of Season 5 is explosive and is the beginning of the end for Abby. Unfortunately, viewers are less interested than ever before, the show's losing viewers faster than Abby is losing her grip on her empire. And in the middle of a studio scheduling snafu, Abby mysteriously abandons the dancers and their moms in LA to take care of something in Pittsburgh, leaving the moms to speculate that Abby is on the verge of a mental breakdown. A few days later, the girls in the dance company have an audition with a Hollywood casting agent. Abby's back and is acting as the girls' manager but seems completely unprepared or interested.

Let's take a look at how Abby prepares her dancers for this enormous opportunity. We're in LA. The girls have their first casting call and I think we're all really excited. This is a big deal. Is that Abby screaming about a parking spot? I can't believe she's doing this right in front of the casting agency. Is she seriously losing her mind? LA is too much.

It's too much for Abby to handle. Do you have any words of wisdom for the girls it's our first time together since we've been in LA? No. We haven't seen you as a group for several days, and it's absolutely disgraceful. The LA is too big for her. She gets swallowed up by all those parallel parking spots.

I can understand. BLA LAUGHS Listen, even the strongest person has been brought to tears by parking laws in LA. She saw that stack of signs and permit-only restrictions, and that just broke her. She said, you know what? It's done. It's over. You know, this is just one clip,

but it was kind of the theme for the rest of this reality show that she was missing, she wasn't showing up, she didn't seem to care. It was like she gave up on this cast that kind of made her who she was. We get it. We get it. Listen, we watched The Real Housewives and there comes a moment where a Real Housewife is no longer invested and she just is there for the paycheck. She doesn't show up for the group trip

or she doesn't show up for a reunion or something like that. She's bigger than everybody else. The audience always knows and that magic goes away. Yeah. But there's also like severe depression going on with it, I'm sure, because she's never winning.

I mean, it's like five years into it, she's still fighting the same things and they're snowballing out of control. So, poor Abby. Well, Abby's like five years into it, she's still fighting the same things and they're snowballing out of control. So, poor Abby. Well, Abby's clearly stressed. But monetarily, she seems to be doing just fine. During a promotional tour to Australia in the summer of 2014, the Abby Lee Dance Company earns $120,000.

But instead of declaring the money, Abby gives it to the members of the trip to sneak back into the U.S. People Magazine even reports that she divided the cash into plastic bags. No. They gave her cash? What the hell? What kind of world is this? You go do stuff and they just hand you piles of cash. This violates a rule.

You can't bring more than $10,000 into the states without declaration. Abby even texts her banker, quote, we have all this foreign cash. Need a little money laundering. Oh my God. I mean, she really loves the paper trail. You know you're a bad criminal when you're putting all of your crimes in writing. Yeah. She's doing it all wrong.

So Abby filed for bankruptcy and then didn't tell the feds how much money she was making. Now she has to carry a reality empire on her back, compete against the best dancers in the country, and deal with a mountain of legal issues. The investigation, inspired by Agresti's channel surfing, discovers that Abby's been hiding her earnings in all sorts of creative ways. According to court records, Abby conceals over $750,000 in income from working on Dance Moms, public appearance, merchandise, and more. At one point, she has the show's production company pay her mother instead so Abby doesn't have to report the earnings.

Abby also created a series of secret bank accounts to hide her Dance Moms income from the bankruptcy court. Here's what I say, get your damn hands off my money. I earned that money. What'd you do for it, Uncle Sam? Did you teach any children to box step? The real crime is taxes. So on October 13th of 2015, Abby is indicted on 20 counts of fraud, which carries a $5

million fine and five years in prison. Yikes. Wow. Can it be or? Why do I have to go to prison and pay you? What if I don't pay you? By June of 2016, Dance Moms is on summer break and evidence against Abby keeps piling up. A new charge is folded into the case against her. Remember that text about the money laundering in Australia? I seem to remember it, yes. Well, the feds get their hands on that text and they charge her for failing to report

all that money too. Oh, geez. So Abby's legal battle plays out on the seventh season of Dance Moms. How compelling are legal battles when they seep into reality TV? Because we have like Jen Shaw, Erica Jane. The actual legal part isn't that interesting because the courtroom is not very exciting in real life. But watching them fall apart as they know that they're going to jail, that part's fun.

And then everybody surrounding them going from that like, it's so wrong to accuse people of XYZ to like really start stoning the person publicly for whatever they've done. Yeah, I think the most thrilling part is watching the way the people who are clearly guilty try to kind of like finesse the situation and describe how they were like totally innocent actually and they just made a mistake and watching their fellow castmates just kind of like look at them and say, no, we really don't believe you.

Jen Shaw was a great example because she gave us the bonus of being arrested basically on TV. So like anytime you can fold in like a Homeland Security swarm at like a day spa in a parking lot in Utah, that's always going to up the ante. But in March of 2017, Abby announces she is leaving Dance Moms for good. So, Ben, could you please read her very gracious Instagram post trashing the guys who produced Dance Moms?

Yes. In all caps locks. I just want everyone to know. I will no longer take part in Dance Moms. I don't have a problem working with any kid. I love children and I've dedicated my life to making other people's children successful. I just have a problem with being manipulated, disrespected and used day in and day out by men who never took a dance lesson in their lives

and treat women like dirt. I really miss those, like, character limits. You know? Great flame out. Uh huh. While Abby does eventually plead guilty to two counts in the indictment and accepts responsibility for the rest, and on May 9th, 2017, Abby appears in court for her sentencing hearing.

The judge presiding is Judge Joy Flowers Conti. Abby tearfully tries to defend herself. She says she wants to take the judge to lunch and explain everything. Or have her come to class so she can see how much she loves what she does. Unfortunately, that's not how any of this works. Judge Joy Flowers Conti sentences Abby to a year and a day in prison for bankruptcy fraud. Not five years, so that's good. That's pretty good. I mean, she's putting the Joy back in being named Joy.

Yeah. That's for sure. On Dance Moms, Abby is replaced by choreographer Cheryl Burke, referencing one of Abby's catchphrases. The name of the episode is, Everyone's Replaceable, Even Abby. Shady. Apparently not. Ugh.

Wow. How long did that last, Cheryl? Yeah. Don't think so, Cheryl. Nice try. Back it up, Cheryl. In September 2017, Lifetime cancels Dance Moms, its longest running reality series,

but they just can't quit Abby. A few specials follow, including dance moms, Abby tells all. In this special, Abby says that she doesn't think she'll be able to survive prison. However, while in prison, Abby earns certificates in real estate and personal finance. Wonderful. That is gold.

She would actually be a very good realtor. She will get you a deal. She will just scream until they take $50,000 off the price. After serving eight months in Victorville Federal Correctional Institution in California, Abby is released to a halfway house. Somehow prison isn't the worst thing that happens to Abby that year. In April of 2018, after emergency surgery on her spinal cord, Abby is diagnosed with non-Hodgkin's lymphoma. Abby undergoes 10 rounds of chemotherapy.

A year later, Abby's cancer officially goes into remission. Good. She scared the hell out of that cancer. Yeah, she did. It'll get the hell out of me. It's like, oh, Jesus, how late is it? I'm out of that cancer. Yeah, she did. It'll get the hell out of me. It's like, oh Jesus, how late is it? I'm outta here. In 2019, with their star out of jail and in better health, Lifetime brings back Dance Moms

for an eighth season, promoted as Dance Moms Resurrection. Resurrection, like alien. In the footsteps of alien comes Dance Moms. Unfortunately for Abby, it's a short-lived resurrection, as the COVID-19 pandemic makes shooting a season of Dance Moms in 2020 impossible. Lifetime attempts to do a lockdown-friendly spin-off

with Abby called Abby's Virtual Dance Off, however, that project is canceled. In June of 2020, Abby posts one of those black BLM protest solidarity squares on the Gram and Adriana Smith, a Black woman and dance mom from season 8, has an interesting response. Adriana calls Abby out for comments she made about her and her daughter Cameron and states publicly that the Smiths ended their involvement with dance moms over Abby's racist comments. Adriana paraphrases what Abby says.

Awful things like, I know you grew up in the hood with only a box of eight crayons, but I grew up in the country club with a box of 64. Don't be stupid. Oh my god. Crayon shaming. I didn't even know you could use crayons in such a racist way, but there she goes. Good god. Adriana also claims that Abby wanted Cameron to know that her daughter was there as a token. Wow. Oh my God.

Yeah, I'm surprised there isn't more problematic stuff about this show because there was a character named Black Patsy and she got into a big fight with one of the moms and they were going at each other and the mom was like, she's hood. And I was afraid she was gonna try and take my weave and all this stuff, and I was like, wow, this show wasn't that long ago.

How in the world did they get away with this stuff? Or how about Abby Lee Miller in one episode saying that one of her black students did a better job with African dance because she looks the part more. And the mom was like, we're not from Africa, we're Americans, because yeah, but she looks, but she's black the mom was like, we're not from Africa, we're American. Because yeah, but she looks, but she's black, that's why.

Oh Lord. Never mind, I tried to help you Abby, okay? I tried to give you advice on hiding your money. You didn't listen to anything in the future. Well, after all that fraud, prison time, and racism, Abby finally sold her beloved Pennsylvania studio in December of 2022 for a measly 300K. Whoa. Wow. Real estate tanked that much.

She bought it for 550K and it was all the way down to 300? Geez. Yeah. Just goes to show that hiding money from the government, yelling at children, and being a generally crappy person doesn't pay. So let's do a little Where Are They Now? Abby's Pittsburgh Dance Studio became a training center for school bus drivers, which is maybe a little fitting given how much they like yelling at kids too. Yeah. I was going to say, if anyone needs to learn how to yell at kids, it's them, you know.

There's a spinoff teaching the bus drivers how to deal with children. Seriously. Her big LA studio moved into a smaller space in town where it mostly sells merch. Abby continues to make public appearances, teach around the world, and appear on other reality shows. She hosts a podcast called Leave It on the Dance Floor. In 2024, Lifetime announced a Dance Moms reunion. Some cast members, including the Highlands and the Seawalls, are joining. Abby will not be involved. Oh.

So here on the Big Flop, we like to try to end on a high. So are there any silver linings that you can drum up from Abby Lee and Dance Moms? Maybe we're more aware of how these dancers maybe go through just like tons and tons of abuse to get to where they have to go. And so maybe we're more aware of it now. I don't know if Abby is unique in the world of dance or not. But I don't know.

Is that actually even a silver lining? The silver lining is she has a podcast. So that's exciting. That's a very depressing silver lining badge. Yeah, I mean, you know, we're talking about the Ziegler's and JoJo Siwa, but even all of the other girls who were main characters on the show, they all have huge social media followings. They're all doing really well for themselves with different brands and teaching and their

own studios and they have their own like dance competition circuit, some of them. So I guess it wasn't for nothing. No. Well, and look, it may not be a silver lining, but it is a lesson. Bring yelling at children back. Don't let that art form die. The silver lining is that the show may be done, but if you're ever looking to spend a good 17 minutes laughing, you could look up the compilations that Lifetime

has been putting together as recently as six months ago. And it's a great way to pass 20 minutes. Yep. Well, now that you both know about the rise and fall of Abby Lee Dance Company, would you consider this a baby flop, a big flop, or a mega flop? I would say the minimum because Abby's still got 4.5 million followers on the gram. I mean, in our world, like when you compare that to Housewives, she's more popular than most of the most popular Housewives.

So she can still parlay that into a million things. But I think overall, she wasn't really that much of a flop. She was just a terrible criminal. Yeah, I actually think I may give it like a medium to low flop. She just had so much and had so many unforced errors. It's not an epic flop, but she definitely lost more than she really needed to lose. So I'm going to give it a medium. Well, thank you so much to our amazing guests, Ben Mandelker

and Ronnie Karam for joining us here on The Big Flop. And thanks to all of you for listening. Remember, if you're enjoying the show, please leave us a rating and review. We'll be back next week with one of the cutest, softest, floppiest flops of all time, the Beanie Baby Bubble. Bye. Bye. Bye. If you like the big flop, you can listen early and ad free on Wondery Plus. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple podcasts. Prime members can listen ad free on Amazon Music.

Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short survey at wondery.com slash survey. The Big Flop is a production of Wondery and AtWill Media, hosted by me, Misha Brown, produced by Sequoia Thomas, Harry Huggins, and Tina Turner, written by Anna Rubinova, engineered by Andrew Holtzberger. Our story editor is Drew Beebe. Our managing producer is Molly Getman.

Our executive producers are Kate Walsh and Will Malnaty for At Will Media. Legal support by Carolyn Levin of Miller, Korzenik, Summers and Raymond. Producers for Wondery are Matt Beagle and Grant Rudder. Story editing by Brian Taylor White. Senior story editor is Phyllis Fletcher. Coordinating producer is Mariah Gossett.

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