The Big Flop - Fantastic Flop: How Josh Trank Tanked the Fantastic Four with Paul Scheer and Amy Nicholson | 82

Episode Date: April 7, 2025

When 27-year-old wunderkind Josh Trank got the keys to Marvel's First Family, he promised a dark, gritty take on the Fantastic Four. But his own origin story—complete with on-set meltdowns, studio battles, and that infamous tweet—proved more compelling than anything that made it to screen. From questionable wigs to near-fistfights, this superhero saga became a cautionary tale about Hollywood hubris that even Mr. Fantastic couldn't stretch his way out of.The hosts of Unspooled, Amy Nicholson and Paul Scheer (How Did This Get Made) join Misha to binge Josh Trank's F4stic, a movie so bad, it makes you wish you were constantly on fire like the Human Torch just so you could FEEL something.Be the first to know about Wondery’s newest podcasts, curated recommendations, and more! Sign up now at https://wondery.fm/wonderynewsletterListen to The Big Flop on the Wondery App or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen early and ad-free on Wondery+. Join Wondery+ in the Wondery App, Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Start your free trial by visiting wondery.com/links/the-big-flop/ now.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Psst. Hey, you. Yeah, you. The one who can't get enough of the Big Flop? I've got a proposition for you. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or in Apple Podcasts, and you'll unlock a treasure trove of ad-free episodes and early access to the Big Flop. It's like having a secret map to the most notorious corporate catastrophes. Trust me, it's an offer you can't refuse. If I say fantastic four adaptation, what comes to your mind? Is it mid-2000s box office gold starring future Captain America Chris Evans? maybe the Saturday morning cartoon from the 90s, or perhaps it's the highly anticipated film coming out this year.

Whatever it is, that's not what we're talking about today. No, it's the 2015 reboot starring Miles Teller that flops so hard, some people who worked on it still haven't fully recovered. Josh Trank, who is currently working on Fantastic Four. I talk about that. I mean, this is a property that is beloved. This is a genre that is in a good stead right now. Everything I've heard from what Trank is doing

on the Fantastic Four is fantastic. If they just realize we cannot make this work, then eventually, though, the rights are gonna lapse back to Marvel. We are on a sinking ship. When Luigi Mangione was arrested for allegedly shooting the CEO of United Healthcare, he didn't just spark outrage, he ignited a cultural firestorm. Is the system working, or is it time for a reckoning? I'm Jesse Weber. Listen to Law and Crime's Luigi exclusively

on Wondery+. From Wondery and Atwill Media, this is The Big Flop, where we chronicle the greatest flubs, fails, and blunders of all time. I'm your host, Misha Brown, social media superstar whose only superpower is talking shit on the internet, at your bestie Misha. And on our show today, we have the hosts of the movie recap podcast, Unspooled. It's Amy Nicholson and Paul Scheer.

Welcome to the show. What's up? I am so excited to be here. Oh my gosh, I'm so excited. Since you two are the professionals, what makes a good comic book film? Well, this is like a good question because I think this is where Amy and I

have our biggest disagreements. Ooh. I am a fan of popcorn movies and toes, Amy, but also, and especially superhero films I've written Marvel comics. I've written DC comics. We're essentially getting storyboards to a great film and some people embrace and plus up and other people go, let's start from scratch. And to me, the start from scratch and not to,

spoiler alert, that's what I feel like happens here in this movie, really sets us off on a bad direction. I mean, I don't disagree with what Paul is saying about adaptations. Part of my cynicism with superhero movies is I am the person who is actually forced to see all of them. Y'all get to pick and choose. Y'all get to be like, I heard that's good.

I'll prioritize that. I had to see all of them and then I had to write about them and then I had to get yelled at on the internet by fanboys who controlled culture. Back in 2015, I am scarred from the superhero wars. I bet. Well, hopefully we can mend some of those wounds today. We can all be in agreeance that this one might not have been the best one. Well, our story today is about 2015's Fantastic Four reboot, a movie that had everything going

for it. A big budget, a cool cast, a fan base, and an audience craving superhero content. So what went wrong? Maybe it has something to do with what seems to me to be a paranoid young director who has everything on the line. That energy can't be great for set, right? So our hot shot director is Josh Trank, a 27-year-old filmmaker born and raised in LA. Let's take a look at photo. You know, he's got good bone structure. He's got good bone structure.

There's a little like Joaquin Phoenix in Gladiator there. Trank, you know, he's always good bone structure. He's got good bone structure. There's a little like Joaquin Phoenix in Gladiator there. Trank, you know, he's always felt like an outcast, even though his father was an Oscar-winning documentarian he never really fit in. When his parents divorced, his mom enrolled him into a Beverly Hills school and the two of them lived in a small apartment while everyone else he knew lived in these palatial homes straight out of architectural digest. So naturally he was bullied for being less well off than the rest of the kids.

That's real, that's relatable. I get that. Yeah, it's totally relatable. Someone you can root for. So he sought refuge in movies and became a fan of dark cyberpunk anime. And to quote Trank, I've always had a feeling in anything that I've ever done

in any stage of my life as a post 18 year old that I'm in hell, but I'm crawling out of it. I'm always on a path crawling toward the light. Dark statement, dark statement right out of the gate. Probably the biggest problem with this movie, just looking at it plainly is it's too dark. It's too dark in multiple ways, visually and emotionally. Absolutely.

So in high school is where he learned to shoot and edit film at the local public access TV station. And in college, he decided to borrow a camera with his friends and shot a Star Wars parody called Stabbing at Leia's, where a college party goes terribly wrong. In fact, let's watch it. Power it down, power it down, power the fuck down. Please. Back away from the window, right now.

It's a very first person party video. It seems like everything's going normal and we see this, you know, this lightsaber attack and I feel like, I get it, perfect. Give that guy something to do. I am a massive fan of really, really, really well done found footage movies. Like I'm one of the largest Blair Witch fans you might ever meet. I think that's fantastic.

I think it's hard to get found footage right. I think you can really tell when somebody's being phony. And that was good. He said it cost him $80 to make since he did all of the effects himself. And it went viral on YouTube. So, it did encourage him to pursue this as a career. He's like that guy who went viral for playing with a lightsaber, except with tons of talent.

You remember that guy? You got it, lightsaber guy? Yeah, yeah. So even though Trank's childhood was rough, he made a few important connections, notably Max Landis, an up-and-coming screenwriter, and together that's where they created the 2012 film Chronicle, which we love so much, which Trank directed. And Landis and Trank have conflicting stories about who wrote what. Who would have guessed?

And according to some reports, Trank's friend Jeremy Slater helped write the script as well. But regardless, Trank steps into the director role and Chronicle is on track to be his breakout debut film. I also, yeah, I saw this movie. I was really excited because Dane DeHaan is one of the breakout actors from that and I hung out with him a bunch in the movie when he was trying to do that. I was very team DeHaan. I was very, I even saw his Metallica movie. Do you remember when he made like an experimental long for a Metallica movie? Yeah, he's done crazy things. I was like, oh, we have a new Leo. We have a new Leo.

I would love a new Leo now that that Leo had gone all strange and serious. So for those of you who have not seen Chronicle, Chronicle follows a group of high school friends who come across a mysterious object that gives them all telekinetic powers. It's distributed by 20th Century Fox. It's shot in this found footage style. It's like object that gives them all telekinetic powers. It's distributed by 20th Century Fox. It's shot in this found footage style. It's like a video diary. I think it really worked and it was a shame we never got more of the Chronicle films.

But he also, you know, brought out a bunch of really great actors in that as well. You know, that was a movie where Michael B. Jordan, I think, really popped in that, you know, so he had this track record, I think, where you're looking at it like this could be the guy who could actually make a great superhero movie. Well, track record, I think, is a bit of a big statement. He had a film. He had a film. And I want to put this into perspective because I actually, I'll just say this at the top. I come into this story with actually a lot of empathy for Josh Trink. I don't know him at all. Cheekbones great. We've just discussed that. Awesome. Good eyebrows.

But I just, the world that he was walking into here is wild. He makes Chronicle and he becomes at 27 the youngest director of a number one at the box office ever a year before Steven Spielberg even had broken through with Jaws. It breaks you. It broke M. Night Shyamalan. That said, I'm going to put my tiny violin away because we're here to have fun. So let's have fun. Let's get into it. No, I love it. I love it. Now, even before the premiere, the buzz around Chronicle was insane.

At the same time, Fox is looking to make some big moves. They already own the rights to X-Men, Deadpool, and Fantastic Four, and they want to go the Marvel route. I mean, everyone wants to have their own MCU. So, by 2012, when Chronicle is released, Marvel has made two billion dollars at the box office from films like Iron Man and The Avengers. But everyone also wants their own version

of the Nolan Batman trilogy, which is way grittier than MCU and earns over a billion dollars at the box office. So, Fox Honchos, including its president Emma Watts, decide to split the difference. They plan to have the Fantastic Four cross paths with Deadpool and then get pitted against the X-Men. It's going to have all the fan service Marvel heads crave with just a touch of that like Dark Knight grit. Trank has made the right film at the right time. Executives see a fresh young face with a promising future and bids to work with him come flying in. So just based on expectations

of how well Chronicle will do, Trinket offers from Sony to direct Venom and from Warner Bros to adapt the Red Star, which is a Soviet superhero in the DC universe. Great book. Yeah. He also gets an offer to direct Ready Player One twice, and he rejects all of them to take on 20th Century Fox's fantastic four reboot a month before Chronicle premieres. People who say no is a superpower on its own, especially like having this background that you said of like being the

poor kid who grew up in the rich neighborhood. Those people who come out of the gate being like, oh, I know I'm designed for something bigger and better, and I'm not not gonna get buffeted by the system. Here's I also say, Amy, a lot of those people who say no also are young 20 year olds, right? Where saying no is not necessarily like a point of power. It's just like, of course not, I'm gonna do my own thing. And that is like the beauty of youth is like,

you don't, like there isn't that fear. It's like, I'm gonna live forever, that attitude, that energy, so I think that a lot of the times people don't come in here desperate regardless of what their background is. It's more like I'm gonna be here, don't worry about it, I'm Teflon. Going forward, after Chronicle happens,

he does say that he makes the call to do this movie because he likes the new X-Men films and he wants to play in that universe. That's why I'm saying I think it's a little calculated maybe. He likes having the opportunity to build a world almost from scratch. But he's also hedging his bets because he's nervous about losing all of those other offers if Chronicle bombs. The movie hasn't come out yet.

So fortunately for Trank, Chronicle is a hit. Unfortunately, as we'll see, it sets him up on a path to big box office failure. At 27, Trank becomes, like Amy was saying, the youngest director since Steven freaking Spielberg to have a movie open at number one. What's your opinion? Do you think that he made the right choice by signing on to like F4 with Fox for his second film? Well, it's tough. Like the thing that pops out to me is out of all the things he's being offered,

that's the one that sounds the most like Chronicle. And so there's part of me that's like, is that a decision to be like, I know that I can do teenagers who suddenly get superpowers and this is my wheelhouse? Or is he making that decision, I guess, out of fear or comfort? I think it can go either way.

You see somebody like James Gunn, who comes from these smaller budgeted films and then gets a chance to do Guardians of the Galaxy, a big, giant Marvel film with characters that have yet to be introduced to the screen. We all know Guardians of the Galaxy now, but back then we did not, right? Even really diehard comic book fans,

that was like really a small sphere. Phantasmo 4, a larger thing, but they hadn't really been introduced to the movies. You know, we had that kind of those two crappy ones, or maybe three if you count the Silver Surfer one, like early on, but this is- Yeah, the genre had some stink on it, which I think is interesting.

A little bit of a stink, but I think like there could be a version of this where you have like James Gunn, like James Gunn's coming back to do Superman right now. I bet you that Superman might be the best Superman that we've seen. I think that there's a world in which he could easily rescue this, but you have to also play ball.

Yeah, well his choice, it does seem like a good decision at first. When it comes to the tone of the movie, Fox and Trank actually start on the same page. Well, his choice, it does seem like a good decision at first. When it comes to the tone of the movie, Fox and Trank actually start on the same page. Neither party wants to make a cheesy, campy film like the F4 from 2005 starring future Avenger Chris Evans and Jessica Alba. Now, the source material for this new movie isn't the campy 90s cartoon or the 1960s comic. It's going to be Darker,

a more modern run called Ultimate Fantastic Four from the mid aughts. Now these are written by Mark Miller, who also wrote the Avengers comics that inspired the MCU. And Mark Miller also is behind Wanted, right? And the Kingsman, right? This is a guy who really redefined or put his own flag in the comic book space as doing like a more of a gritty,

cool adult version. Like if you grew up with these books, you look to Mark Millar and be like, oh my gosh, she's really doing this in a cool way. His books are great. But the twist, which we alluded to, was that Josh Trank hasn't read them. So actually he's not a huge Fantastic Four guy at all.

Everything he knows about F4 comes from watching a few episodes of the cartoon from his childhood. Now, can I also bring one thing to the light, and you might be talking about this in a second. I also just wanna call out that this is a desperation play also on Fox's part, because Fox is about to lose the rights to the Fantastic Four, right? So they need to make it. Absolutely. And I think that's a great inspiration play also on Fox's part because Fox is about to lose the rights to the Fantastic Four, right?

So they need to make it. Absolutely. For Trank, who is assigned to this either way, besides doing the bare minimum of reading and research, I guess, like what would be the solution to catching up to the world of Fantastic Four? Well, you read the books, right? It's not that hard.

It's pretty easy. It's right there. You don't even have to go to the Library of Fantastic Four. Well, you read the books, right? It's not that hard. It's pretty easy. It's right there. You don't even have to go to the Library of Congress. He could get it. They're right. It's 2015, people. We could get this on an iPad at that point. Well, he thinks there's an easier solution than having to read anything.

Fox hires Mark Millar as a consultant. So disaster over him. Oh, boy. Here we go. Now, the core of the problem is that Trank wants to push the envelope without really opening the envelope and seeing what's inside in the first place. His vision of Fantastic Four is Cronenberg-esque. For anyone who hasn't been scarred by Dave and Cronenberg's films, that means he wants

to lean into the psychological horror of having your body transformed into a twisted shadow of your former self. Fun. Oh yeah, there's a lot of body horror in this, in a weird way, you're like, oh, okay, got it. All right, interesting. I mean, I think you kind of need it to be like, why isn't this awesome?

Right? Because the idea is these kids get crazy superpowers and they're like, oh no, how do we get rid of it? And that is the core of what makes a great comic book movie, right, Amy? Oh God, why me? Not cool. This is why Trank thinks it's bad.

He also wants to infuse the film with political commentary, criticizing the military, who essentially kidnapped the Fantastic Four and trained them to become super soldiers. Okay. I mean, I'm okay with that when the Avengers is like, hey, military, can we borrow your planes? And then just say, like, good move. Keep doing what you're doing. Uh... is like, hey, military, can we borrow your planes and then just say like, good move, keep doing what you're doing.

Yeah. Yeah, I mean, his movie even paints Dr. Doom as a disgruntled Marxist type who gives up on humanity. Relatable. There is something about it where it's like, right, you start adding so many elements to it, it stops being the thing that people wanna see. And I think at this point, yes, Batman is dark, but it still pays off on what Batman is.

Fantastic Four has been light. There has been these elements. They're fighting mole men and all this sort of stuff. There is something here. It's a harder it's a harder lift to make this dark. For the record, Trink's Fantastic Four, although dark and depressing, theoretically sets up a lighter sequel. Quote, the end of the Fantastic Four was going to very organically set up the adventure and

the weirdness and the fun. But the first movie was going to basically be the filmic version of how I saw myself all the time. The metaphor of these characters crawling out of hell. Boo. Boo is what I say to this. You can't plan for the sequel. That's the worst thing.

I feel like we see this all the time. People are like, well, but wait, we had to do it. We had to lay it out first before you could see the good stuff. I was like, no, no, no. Give us the good stuff. Then you can go make your sequel. But this is an idea that I see so many times. We're not gonna show you the cool stuff now.

It's like, why not? Why not? We're not going to show you the cool stuff now. It's like, why not? Why not? In the early hours of December 4th, 2024, CEO Brian Thompson stepped out onto the streets of Midtown Manhattan. This assailant starts firing at him. And the suspect.

He has been identified as Luigi Nicholas Mangione. Became one of the most divisive figures in modern criminal history was meant to sow terror is walking the people to a true issue listen to law and crimes Luigi exclusively on one degree plus enjoying one degree plus one degree app Spotify or Apple podcasts. In the early hours of December 4th 2024 CEO Brian Thompson

stepped out onto the streets of Midtown Manhattan. This a silent starts firing at him and the suspect he's been identified as Luigi Nicholas Mangione became one of the most divisive figures in modern criminal history was meant to sow terror is walking the people to a true issue. Listen to law and crimes Luigi exclusively on one degree plus enjoying one degree plus one degree app Spotify or Apple podcasts. to Law and Crime's Luigi. Exclusively on Wondery+, you can join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app,

Spotify, or Apple podcasts. Trank nonetheless thinks his vision is solid and he's already planned every single shot of the movie. And everyone, including the studio and the internet, is excited for this raw new spin on a classic. Now for context, it's 2012. Things are going well in America. The Great Recession is ending. Conservative tech billionaires are just still progressive coded millionaires. Collective trauma relative to the following 13 years

is at an all time low, so Cronenberg-esque makes some sort of sense. Now, and honestly, the theoretical tone of the movie isn't the problem. Again, The Dark Knight is bleak and it's good. As most retrospectives put it, Trank is just extremely desperate to prove himself, and some people find it to be a bit of a bummer. And even though Trank has talent, he is so inexperienced that he just assumes Fantastic

Four will be just like Chronicle but with a nine-figure budget. So how do you think he handles himself when he figures out the difference between an indie film and a studio one? With incredible grace. You know, I have to say, it's gonna be... He's really gonna learn his lesson and really compromise. It's gonna be the key word of this. No. Of course, he rejects it immediately.

According to reports, even in pre-production, he rejects almost every idea from Fox Studio execs and production designers. Well, yeah, he's the youngest director set before Spielberg to be number one. What do these guys know? They don't know nothing. Yeah, so he cops an attitude, which doesn't sit well with his bosses or the people below him, apparently.

On the script front, the studio hires two experienced writers with some hits under their belts, but Trank disapproves of them. He wants Jeremy Slater, his friend who helped him punch up Chronicle to write the script. Of course, the studio pushes back because in 2012, Slater has no major credits to his name. Now, of course that does not mean that he's not talented, he's not good, but it's just unusual that he'd be getting this opportunity. But he worked on the movie made by the youngest director

since Spielberg. I do think that movies are collaborative in nature. You have to have these good relationships. You have to respect people. You may have the final say, but. You have to have these good relationships. You have to respect people. You may have the final say, but you also have to surround yourself with smart people. Part of being a great director is delegating and knowing when to lean in and when to pull out.

And it seems like he's leaning in on everything. You can be, I'm gonna surround myself with the smartest, best people, so I will look good. Or you go, I'm gonna try to do everything and inevitably you'll look bad. I alone can make Fantastic Four. Yeah, I think it's important to negotiate with yourself just as much as you negotiate with other people.

Absolutely. Well, either way, eventually the studio does relent, and they hire Slater to write the film. However, according to Slater, he and Trank also have a contentious relationship. There we go. Now to start, Trank and Slate, not their real nickname, can't agree on the tone or the plot and Trank seems completely uninterested in making a superhero movie, fixating on the

dark political body horror stuff. Slater even tries to share some of his favorite comics with Trank so they can get in sync, but he just refuses to read them. Oh no. Yes, Trank refuses to send anything Slater writes to the studio that he himself doesn't personally like, mostly stuff from the source comics. Trank also fails to relay back all of the notes to Slater. So maybe because he doesn't see like 95% of the feedback, Slater ends up writing 18 drafts of the script,

totaling 2,000 pages. Oh, this breaks my heart. Yeah. So after six months, Slater gets so frustrated, he leaves and the script is left unfinished. Now, this is a big red flag for studio execs because they're wondering, have we made a huge mistake? The answer is yes.

Because to what Paul was saying, Fox has a use it or lose it clause with this franchise. If they don't release a fantastic four film every few years, the rights to that sweet, sweet intellectual property revert back to Marvel. Would be a huge loss. So Fox, they do what they have to do. They push production ahead, even without a finished story. Not that it's a good idea, but this apparently happens all the time in Hollywood. But Trink is not familiar with this kind of setup. No, but this is like how Warren Beatty keeps the rights for Dick Tracy.

Like, he does every so often he does a zoom where he's like, Hey, I'm Dick Tracy. I don't know. I'm not wearing a costume, but I'm Dick Tracy. They should have just done a zoom version of the movie. Yeah. So it dawns on Trank that he might have made a really big mistake, and he starts thinking that all the experts around him don't really respect his vision.

And I mean, fair. I've been in situations where I felt creatively disrespected before. It's not a great headspace to be in. Right, but if you can't articulate your vision or have a script for your vision or have any of the parts of your vision, what vision are you asking people to believe in? Well, this is the problem, I think. There is a maturity to all of this sort of stuff,

and it's a hard fought lesson to feel like people are actually looking out for you. We talk about maturity, and I don't necessarily think maturity always has to do with age. I think it has to do with life experience. And if you haven't gotten kicked around, like most screenwriters have gotten kicked around this town. Like most directors have gotten kicked around this town,

not getting 12 million for your first film. You don't know how to, I guess, go through studio couples therapy. I always say you have to learn, you have like eating shit is a great way to become a better creator. Cause you've been in these positions where you've been treated badly.

And it's like, and I think that like a lot of people who just pop like this, Josh Trank, he just popped. He didn't understand what the system was. No one's gonna sit there and tell you unless you have a mentor, but you have to trust that mentor. And it seems like he's not trusting anybody. With Slater gone, Fox brings in their own writers.

They just need the script in good enough shape to start filming. But to actually do that, they need need the script in good enough shape to start filming. But to actually do that, they need good actors and quick. So we've got some big roles to cast, right? There's Reed Richards, aka Mr. Fantastic, you know, the stretchy one. There's Sue Storm, aka The Invisible Woman, Johnny Storm, Sue's brother and the Human Torch, and Ben Grimm, aka The Thing, Reed's best friend. So casting begins in January of 2014, and Trank has a list in mind of who he would like to play these characters. But of course, there's immediate friction.

Trank wants to hire actor Miles Teller as Reed Richards, aka Mr. Fantastic. Now Teller is very talented. He's got a musical theater background. He stars in the remake of Footloose. And he nets a few award noms for the movie Whiplash. So he definitely has range. But the studio doesn't think he's a good fit. Did anybody else see his Footloose?

Because I really like him in Footloose. Yeah. I did not see. Ah, he was a person who as soon as I saw Footloose just popped and I was like, I will watch whatever you do. And then he did Whiplash and I was like, I have paid off. My gamble was correct. This movie is an interesting film because

I've always thought of the Fantastic Four as a family. It's a husband and wife and essentially kids. And what this movie does, it's the biggest change, is it makes them all kids. And I think that that messes up the dynamic of the Fantastic Four. I don't think it's a perfect cast, but in order to think the take of it as kids

is a perfect cast. The execs, they had the same exact thought that you did, Paul, because they thought he was too young, too nerdy to be the leader of the group. Even though Mr. Fantastic is supposed to be a genius engineer and only 21 years old, Trank, he also wants his buddy from Chronicle, Michael B. Jordan, as Johnny Storm, aka The Human Torch.

What are your thoughts on that? Zero problem with that. I mean, Michael B. Jordan is fantastic in everything. Yeah. And I mean, like, it makes total sense. Directors who love working with actors, they bring them along for projects all of the time. And I think he's a stellar performer, but casting him as Johnny will mean changing the race of the character,

who's usually portrayed as, and I don't know how to say this politely, extremely white, like, translucent, to be precise. Right. politely, extremely white, translucent to be precise. So this doesn't sit well with the very online in-cell class. I think he embodies Johnny Storm as a character, no problem, right? But I think that, you talk about a black Spider-Man and everyone has a full meltdown.

It's like, there's no reason why he needs to be white, black, anything. He's the character is what is interesting about that. Yeah, but it's flashing back to moments like this that are just 10 years ago that make me feel like, hey, we've actually made some progress in this world. Usually I feel like we've backslid. But for something like that, I don't think people would even blink now. I don't know, Little Mermaid caused a quite a stir.

I guess maybe I just travel in verified circles. Sorry guys. Oh, maybe I just got off Twitter. That's what I did. I got off Twitter years ago. Got off of that garbage. We're over Woke, right? I heard it's done. I heard it was canceled. Woke was canceled. I shouldn't even worry about it anymore. But back then, 2012, let's just say the internet, they overreacted. But since Johnny is Sue Storms, aka Invisible Woman's brother, and their father, Franklin Storm, is going to be the fifth lead of the movie,

that means now half of the characters need to be black. And all of a sudden, now the studio also wants to push back. So they're fine with Jordan as Johnny, and all of a sudden now the studio also wants to push back. So they're fine with Jordan as Johnny and they hire Reg E. Cathy, who's best known for his work on The Wire as Mr. Franklin Storm. And by the way, let me just tell you, if I'm gonna give an MVP to this movie,

Reggie Cathy is the person I'm giving an MVP to. I feel like every now and then you look at one person and you're like, that person held this all together and I feel like Reggie Cathy is you look at one person, you're like that person held this all together. And I feel like Reggie Cathy is the reason why this movie works. He's the centerpiece. He really is. Everything goes around him.

Now the solution for Sue, everyone's crush growing up. This role now goes to Kate Mara, that young journalist from Netflix's political drama, House of Cards. So for anyone who's not familiar, Kate Mara is white and Michael B. Jordan is not. So, how do you think they reconcile them being siblings in the movie? Well, you gotta say it. Here it is. Yeah.

Adoption, of course. Of course. Of course. Yeah, Sue Storm in this movie is an orphan from Kosovo. A fun reference to the late 90s war? I don't know. Yes. I like that she's the one that's adopted at least. Yeah, that's true.

That's true. Progress. Last but not least, Jamie Bell, the kid from Billy Elliot, is cast as Ben Grimm, aka The Thing, which I think I liked that. I think it's a good choice because his dance training will help him perform the motion capture sequences. So now that the casting is over, the movie starts shooting in May of 2014 in Baton Rouge, Louisiana, and principal photography will go till August. So any any thoughts of why that might be a problem? Oh, it's just the beautiful,

wonderful weather wise time to be in Louisiana, isn't it? Yeah, the heat. Louisiana is one of the muggiest summer locations you can pick. Average temps of 90 degrees, humid AF. Not great for costumes, not makeup, or the poor crew that have to work in these conditions. Let's not forget them.

I have shot in Shreveport, I've shot in Louisiana. It is a beast. Well, I bring this up because when are people most irritated? When they're hot. Yes. And Trank, as some have alleged, seems to have some control issues. So maybe this is a contributing factor.

And he's an LA kid. He doesn't know hot. He does not know humid. We do not know humid here. Mild temperate actors, unfortunately, may have become an easy target for him. Uh-oh. Yeah, he's said to take his frustrations out

on one person in particular, Kate Mara, his only female lead. Of course, because it's easier to do that because he doesn't think that she's gonna kick his ass. Yeah, basically. It's not clear if Trank still resents that he didn't get to cast a Black Sue storm or if he just doesn't like Kate Mara herself. Either way, people say he bullies her.

Mara stuffs her own feelings way, way down during filming and tries to do her best in a hostile environment, but she later calls the whole experience horrendous. Mm. Whew. Meanwhile, Miles Teller also has major issues with Trank. Apparently, Teller has a Type A personality and Trank's alleged micromanaging pisses him right off. Rumor has it they got so riled up they started daring each other to throw the first punch. Wow.

Wow. Trank later said this was just a quote, moment of miscommunication. Yeah, my fist miscommunicating with his jaw. But guys, this is 2015. We have to have these guys directing because women are too emotional. So Trank is sweating, not just because he's in Baton Rouge. The script still isn't done, and Fox starts slashing the budget.

Production troubles leak into the press, and Trank's name is dragged through the dirt. He's said to be erratic, reclusive, and irresponsible. He's accused of showing up to set high and drunk. He's blamed for $100,000 in property damage to the rental home Fox puts him up in, where he and his wife and three dogs are all staying together. Now he has said, hey, my dogs weren't that big.

I have like what, three pugs and a Boston Terrier. There's no way they did $100,000 of damage. That's too many dogs. He does say that these are exaggerations and some of them probably are. It's a fantastic four amount of dogs. Now it is important to note that he was never accused of any actual crimes, just some allegations. Got it, got it. Okay.

Yeah, if being hostile on a set that is a crime. Lock up everyone. In the early hours of December 4th, 2024, CEO Brian Thompson stepped out onto the streets of Midtown Manhattan. This assailant pulls out a weapon and starts firing at him. We're talking about the CEO of the biggest private health insurance corporation in the world. And the suspect. He has been identified as Luigi Nicholas manjoni became one of the most divisive figures in modern criminal history was targeted premeditated and meant to sow

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enjoying one 3 plus the one, Spotify, or Apple podcasts. So, Trank only has one chance at this, but when Trank delivers his first cut of Fantastic Four, the studio is shockingly unimpressed. The movie is bleak. The pacing is weird. There are no jokes. Families, they're going to hate it, basically. So Fox's president Emma Watts hires a new editor named Stephen Rifkins who edited Avatar to make Trank's film less depressing. Now, Rifkins becomes the new de facto director because the final cut is basically on him. And almost everything Trank has shot, especially in the second half, gets left on the cutting

room floor. So Fox's writers and Trank churn out some pages to try to fix the second half of the movie. And Trank's pages are ignored by the studio completely. It's hard to say if his writing would help or hurt the film, but you have to assume this would crank up his anxiety up to 11. Oh yeah. So he's watching in horror as his precious work is being stripped of all integrity and

the rumors of him being difficult are spreading far and wide. The release date of the film is even pushed back, which is not a good signal to the outside world. With all the bad press, Trank suspects he'll be let go from a Star Wars gig he had picked up. Yes, now this is interesting. Yeah, go ahead. Yeah.

Uh-huh. So in May of 2015, to save face, he announces he's stepping down from the project before they can axe him, which quickly backfires because when the story is reported, the headlines say, he's been fired anyway. Ooh. And his spin on it, I think, was, you know what, I don't want to do a big action, like, CG spectacular anymore. I've done it. I want to do something completely different.

Yeah, I want to go back to the art. Yeah. So, with Trank relegated to the children's table, it's time for the adults in the room to fix this mess, which sits at over two hours long, as it was, but the studio pairs that way down to just one hour and 40 minutes. That's with seven minutes of credits, I might add. Wow.

Now, most of the first half of Trank's film is retained, albeit shortened. It's the of the first half of Trank's film is retained, albeit shortened. It's the gloomy origin half, where we meet the young geniuses and see them build a teleporter that sends them to a dimension where they get their powers through a horrifying accident.

Let me tell you something about this, because I started watching this, and I had not seen it because of all of this stuff that we're talking about. And there was a part of me that was like, I was watching this opening, I was like, this isn't terrible. There's nothing that jumps out at you

as being like, woof, this is awful. And that's an interesting feat to pull off. I almost find that that's the worst type of bad movie because it's not bad enough to be bad. It's just bad enough to be like, I don't care about it. It's like folding laundry television. It's like, yeah, okay, fine. Yeah, I don't care about it. It's like folding laundry television. It's like, yeah, okay, fine. Yeah, I guess, fine.

I will back you up on this. I will back you up on this. It doesn't even feel bad as much as pointless, honestly. Yeah. There's like, oh, we're at the shiny blue black look and the laboratories and the computer screens and giant fights with tons of pixels in the background. It just feels like, yeah, why?

Yeah. So back on Earth, they get black-bagged and taken to a secret location run by a shady military operation. Unsure of what's happening, Reed escapes, intending to come back for his friends, but the rest of the team feels abandoned by him. And the others have no choice but to cooperate with the military and become weapons of war until Reed comes back. Now, since the non-action of the second half takes place, mostly in a secret military location, it's basically shot on a generic procedural TV set. Think, dark walls, some glass, a hallway, fake computers, lockers.

It's so ugly. It's so ugly. It really is. It's just dead. It's just completely. It's so ugly. It really is. It's just dead. It's just completely dead. Yes. And then, very noticeably, the film cuts to one year later, also known as a cover-up to the plot holes. Wow. So, yeah. Unfortunately, this does not help cover up the editing of the reshoots. One glaring inconsistency, one that really stuck out to me,

is Kate Mara, who has medium length blonde hair at the start of production. But after principal photography wraps, she cuts her hair into a pixie for another role. They ended up giving her a wig. It's just wrong. Let's take a look at a picture. Just say she cut her hair. Just say the character cut her hair. It is a little rough. I mean, it...

Look, and this is... Oh, boy, oh, boy. Yeah, watching this was odd. I mean, I'll say I'm horrible about this. I have a real thing about bad blonde hair in movies. Like, I really have a thing about bad blonde hair, movies. I really have a thing about bad blonde hair, just a general Fox News anchor hair, bad blonde hair. I have bad blonde hair radar. And this is the nuclear detonation level in my brain

of bad blonde hair. Yeah, yeah. So for the people who are listening and not watching, we're seeing her with what looks like very natural blonde hair, and then a very atrocious, like, shake-and-go party city wig. She should be on TV right now telling me why I don't deserve to have bodily autonomy.

Ha-ha! Oh! You know, Amy, you just said, like, just come up with a plot device to give us an explanation. However, those scenes with her new hair are intercut with scenes with her old look, so explanations, like, she couldn't, they couldn't do that. So, even if the top of the film is gloomy

and the characters are literally emotionless, at least it's sort of cohesive. But most of what's set up in the first half, it just doesn't pay off. And what you get in the end is a rushed, generic mess of superhero cliches. I mean, the ending was, when they're trying to come up with their name was... I mean, this is so interesting,

because they don't play, they kind of make it like a little like, uh-oh, we're never gonna say Fantastic Four, but we're gonna play into it. Here's the thing that jumps out at me when I watch this movie. You spend the first act of this movie setting up a relationship with Jamie Bell and Miles Teller

that has absolutely zero payoff in the third act. Like there's this relationship, by the way, it's clobbering time comes from the fact that his brother used to beat the crap out of him dark. Right, weird. Oh, it's about trauma. Oh my God. And's about trauma. No. Oh my God.

And there are all these things. And you also have your leader of the group disappear, like you said, for the movie. He leaves and we don't see him. And they're like, where is he? Where is he? Why did he leave us? And why did he leave them?

What did he do? What is he trying to do? This is a whole movie where there's no adventure. It's like our characters get drunk and decide to go teleport themselves, but not even all of our characters, just three of them. It's like, there are so many elements here that are so mishandled

just from a structural story point of view. Like, wanna play into the body horror? Let's see it. We'd never get to see it. It's a movie essentially where our main characters are not held together. Reggie Cathy is our leader for all intents and purposes.

We get no fun of it. They take down Dr. Doom relatively incredibly easy, but there's no villain until really the last 20 minutes and then they fight a minute over, I guess. It's all like Winx and Nod's, we know this is a superhero movie, maybe that's an Easter egg, but it's guess. It's like, it's all like Winx and Nod's, like we know this is a superhero movie, then maybe that's an Easter egg, but it's nothing. It's all nothing.

Well, yeah, but in addition to being nothing and obviously like cut together and messy, I think it's really weird that the giant nothingness of it actually becomes, I would say, a really fascinating metaphor for what happened to this movie. He is this parallel in this film that I find really compelling, because at its core, this is a movie about like, hey, I'm a young smart kid, Miles Teller. And here I am with all of these natural gifts and these old people, the military, the

government want me want my skills want my genius, but then they question me at every turn act like they know better boss me around. And me and my buddies got to go get glory. Like that's what he made a movie about, and that it is what happens to him. And I find that fascinating, the inadvertent parallel of it all. As the release date approaches, Trank is frustrated with nowhere to turn. So he does what any disgruntled millennial might do. He goes online and fires off a defensive tweet. The night before the premiere, he writes, quote, A year ago, I had a fantastic version of this and it would have received great reviews. You'll probably

never see it. That's reality though. Now he very quickly deletes the tweet, but some box office experts think that this little post cost 20th Century Fox $10 million in the first weekend alone. So great, now he's opened himself up to a lawsuit as well. Yeah, it cost him a career. And it did. His phone stops ringing, and nobody wants to work with him. To make things worse, Trank, according to his own words, becomes a bit of a shut-in, too embarrassed to show

his face around the industry. Now, I just want to know, it's hard to separate what's true and what's fake when it comes to Trank's reputation as the director. I mean, signs point to him actually being difficult and he clearly makes a scene when cornered not a great look. But there's no real way to prove either perspective definitively. But I'll say this, where there's smoke there's usually some fire. The movie obviously bombs. It has one of the lowest opening weekends of all time for a

big budget superhero film. It nets only $25 million in its first weekend, which is half of the projected $40 million the studio was hoping for. And you have to think half of that is curiosity, people. People want to see the train wreck. And then be like, it's not even a train wreck. It's just boring. It's just boring, yeah. So, against a budget of $155 million, it makes 167 worldwide, not counting marketing.

So, not great. In November of that year, a planned sequel is scrubbed from the studio's docket, and Josh Trank vows to never make another superhero movie again, not even Chronicle 2. And how it was like, you got it. We're not gonna call. Yeah. So let's do a little Where Are They Now? The Rotten Tomatoes score for Fantastic Four still sits at a dismal 9%.

Thankfully, all of the actors have gone on to do some seriously good work, even in superhero films. Kate Mara and Jamie Bell have steady work, but more importantly, they fell in love. They tied the knot in 2017, two years after they met on the set of Fantastic Four. It's just like Bennifer, except they're still together. And more importantly, went to my kid's preschool

and I saw them every morning at drop off as we hung out with our kids, dropping off our kids in the morning. So cute. Fox was purchased by Disney in 2019 and the rights to Fantastic Four, as well as a few other properties like Deadpool. They're now owned by the same company that owns Marvel.

Therefore, everyone's now a part of one big corporate family. There's the family we were looking for. There it is. After five years in director's jail, a divorce, and some therapy, Josh Trank finally scraped together resources to release another movie, Capone, formerly known as Fonzo. Unfortunately, with a budget of over $20 million,

it only made about $3 million, including rentals. And it hit similar complaints too, I believe, right? It's like for, you know, it was not as, it was not well received. There's a lot of hubbub about it. Yeah. If you want to keep up with Trank, he's not on any social media except Letterboxd.

So you can read his reviews if you're curious. Love that. So here on The Big Flop, we try to be positive people and end on a high. So are there any silver linings that you can think about that you can come up with for the Fantastic Four film? I will say it at least, I think, made people picture Michael B. Jordan being a movie star-sized movie star. You know, I think what this does is serve as a clarion call to all writers and directors. When you have that blank check to make your second project, make it the way that you want to make it.

See, like, fly on your own merit. Don't get locked up into somebody else's thing. But I will also say, tip the hat to the casting director. Like Amy said, this is a great win for a casting director across the board. Absolutely. Well, now that you both know about the 2015 reboot of Fantastic Four, would you consider this a baby flop, a big flop, or a mega flop? Oh, I'll go with big flop.

And the big flop is just because I think the blowback of it really just landed on Josh Trank. Yeah. I agree. I think that we have a big flop definitely because this is a movie that Fox has been known for putting out slightly inferior superhero films. So in the grand scheme of things,

what this movie really dealt with was a great casting. Everyone was, ooh, this is gonna be good. This is a kind of cool idea. And then it just went away. And while Venom is a lot more fun, I wouldn't say quality-wise, Venom is like blowing this out of the water. I think that the only really great Sony films

in the Marvel universe are the Spider-Verse films. Venom 2 is good. Look, by the way, I'm not against the Venom franchise. Venom is a weird Tom Hardy like art project, which I'm down with. Well, thank you so much to our guests, Paul Scheer and Amy Nicholson, for joining us here on The Big Flop.

And of course, thanks to all here on The Big Flop. And of course, thanks to all of you for listening and watching. If you're enjoying the show, please leave us a rating and review. For the next two weeks, we'll be bringing you our favorite episodes from the archive before we return with a brand new season of The Big Flop. Bye. Bye-bye. Bye. Bye-bye. Bye. Bye.

If you like The Big Flop, you can listen early and ad free on Wondery Plus. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple podcasts. Prime members can listen ad free on Amazon Music. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short survey at wondery.com slash survey. The Big Flop is a production of Wondery and AtWill Media, hosted by Misha Brown, produced by Sequoia Thomas, Harry Huggins, and Tina Turner. Written by Anna Rubinova and Luke Burns.

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