The Big Flop - From Antivirus King to Fugitive: The John McAfee Story with Jeff Hiller and Leslie Liao | 99

Episode Date: August 4, 2025

John McAfee turned computer security into a fortune, then spent the rest of his life making increasingly questionable life choices. Whether he was running from murder charges, pumping crypto schemes, or tattooing ""WHACKD"" on his arm before his suspicious prison death, McAfee proved that sometimes the most dangerous virus is success itself.Jeff Hiller and Leslie Liao join Misha to get the download on John McAfee.Be the first to know about Wondery’s newest podcasts, curated recommendations, and more! Sign up now at https://wondery.fm/wonderynewsletterListen to The Big Flop on the Wondery App or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen early and ad-free on Wondery+. Join Wondery+ in the Wondery App, Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Start your free trial by visiting wondery.com/links/the-big-flop/ now.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Before we dive into today's tale of catastrophe, I have to tell you about Wondery+. If you're someone who craves the juicy details behind the biggest flops, Wondery+, is exactly what you need. Add free episodes and early access to new stories that will take you even deeper into the world of business blunders. Trust me, it's a game changer. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or in Apple Podcast. Besties, did I ever tell you that I had a girlfriend? Yeah, I was 13. It probably lasted two weeks, but hey, we ended on good terms. And if we hadn't dated, I wouldn't have her name as the password to practically every account

that I have to this day. I probably should have kept that to myself. Well, I'll just get some software protection or something. Maybe that McAfee one. Then again, the creator of that, John McAfee, did do a ton of basalts, lived as a fugitive in Belize, and is possibly responsible for the death of two people. You know what? I'll just take my chances. My name is John McAfee, founder of the McAfee Antivirus Software Company. McAfee is alleged to have earned millions from numerous sources. I had absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the murder of Gregory Fahl.

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From Wondery and Atwill Media, this is The Big Flop, where we chronicle the greatest flubs, fails, and blunders of all time. I'm your host, Misha Brown, social media's superstar and sometimes called the Data Diddler at your bestie Misha. And on our show today, y'all, I'm so excited because we have an actor, comedian, and writer whose book, Actress of a Certain Age, My 20-Year Trail to Overnight Success, just recently hit shelves and it is so good. It's Jeff Hiller, welcome to the show.

Thank you, it's so exciting to be here. And joining us is a friend of the pod, returning guest, a super funny comedian who you can catch at UCB in LA on August 13th. It's Leslie Liao. Hey, Leslie. Hello. Oh my god. Honored to be back.

I'm so excited. I love when we have friends return to the pod and when we have new ones, we're just like becoming a big floppy family. So before we get into the story of John McAfee, what's your general approach to online security? Are you like Fort Knox or more loosey-goosey with it? It's hard to be for it when I'm a traveling comedian and tell everyone where I am at all times. I literally ask strangers to come see me in the night. Also, I'm a weak woman, very weak, no upper body strength. You know what I mean?

In theory, I feel like we should all be protected from stuff like that, but also I want everyone to come see me at all times. Yeah. What about you, Jeff? Well, I have a password protector. Okay. Or a password manager, I guess is what it's called.

Yeah. And, you know, I have a Mac. There we go. But I also post things about like where I live, things like that. And people sometimes will be like, you said that this was right next door to you and we can identify what this is.

So you should take it down. I'm like, oh. People just DMing you your address, like very, very ominous. And then I just write, come see me in the night. Yeah. And by the way, Leslie, I'm also a weak woman, so I would be bad. So, all right, well, today our story is about John McAfee,

the reclusive millionaire who created McAfee software. Now, if you were born after 1990, bitch, you might have to ask your parents what that is. But at face value, he's an internet pioneer who protected people from harm. After all, malicious spyware really can destroy a computer. But some computer experts say he is, in fact, a con artist. They claim his product was a digital bandaid

for cybersecurity and that if anything, he got in the way of creating an internet that's actually safe. So are we ready for the twists and turns of this story? Cause I'm telling you, it's crazy. I'm ready and I'm scared. I'm ready and I'm excited. Yes, okay.

So to start, I cannot overstate this. John McAfee is a weird dude. Weird, and with a Hollywood-sized personality. Let's take a look at a photo first. Oh. I love it when he's like, this is the chair for me. Yeah, Jeff, could you like describe John

for our listeners only? Okay, so, well, first of all, he's next to a gilded mirror and a very large chair, a chair that goes up way higher than any other chair has ever gone. But he has decided to place his upper back on the seat portion of the chair. He's got what I would call a dirtbag goatee.

Sure. That's correct. And if that's his natural hair color, then God was messing with the devil when he made him, because it looks very dyed to me. And I don't know, he seems pretty tall, kind of lanky. Yeah. I mean, he looks like a weird little villain in a really big chair. I don't know. Yeah, so that's... It does feel like that chair should swivel and he should reveal himself

while holding a cat and stroking it. Exactly. Well, John was a smart and talented guy who could have done a lot of good in the world, but he was plagued by unimaginable trauma. So in turn, he wreaked havoc on the tech world, on politics, and then traded his own life and reputation for his liberty, or more accurately, his libertine lifestyle.

Now this might be the darkest and most harrowing episode we've done so far on The Big Flop, so buckle up. John McAfee is born in England at the end of World War II. He has a British mum, but an American father. And when his dad's done serving on an army base in the UK, the whole family moves to Virginia. McAfee's early life is a masterclass in dysfunction. His father was an abusive alcoholic and McAfee was terrified of him.

But McAfee is smart and shows early signs of being an entrepreneur. And in college, he sells magazine subscriptions door to door, and he claims this made him a fortune. BOTH LAUGH Maybe that's lie number one. Maybe at the time, it was a fortune. It was before print media was dead.

But, I mean, a heads up, he does lie. Like, a lot. A lot. So we'll take it with a grain of salt how much money he made doing that. Well, whatever money he does make, he uses it on alcohol. And that doesn't stop him from graduating college,

though, in 1967 and enrolling in a PhD program. And as part of the doctorate program, he teaches undergrad students. And when it's discovered he's sleeping with one of them, he gets kicked out. Yeah, he later does marry this lady, but he will never be monogamous. Yeah, that's just his vibe,

cheating, stealing, dealing, you know? But it's not one of those open monogamy, ethical monogamy where he's just his vibe, cheating, stealing, dealing. But it's not one of those open monogamy, ethical monogamy where he's telling his young former student that he's gonna be having sex with other people. No, this is not hashtag polyamory. It is hashtag cheating. Hashtag cheating.

Yeah, yeah. But he does have a little side gig. He does also sell cocaine. Okay, well... Wow. This sounds exhausting. Just an exhausting schedule. That's why he needs that cocaine. There we go. There we go. So after getting booted from the PhD program,

McAfee gets a gig coding punch cards. Very 80s tech job. He's fired after getting arrested for buying weed. Also, this is all happening in the 80s. So, like, that was kind of when sexual harassment and things like that were not really that frowned upon. So he must have been kind of bad. He must have been buying like a pound of weed and a... That's what I'm thinking.

And having sex with lots of students. Yeah. Yeah, literally. He later makes up a fake resume to get a job at a railroad company. Strange. So ye olde, a railroad company. Not since the Gilded Age. But all reports say that he actually did a decent job at the railroad company, as in he did not cause any trains to derail. That's decent.

Bad news is, though, this is when he discovers LSD. Oh, God. This crippling addiction is really getting in the way of his life. He also discovered DMT, the highly psychoactive substance in ayahuasca. Wow, he's a pioneer. He is a pioneer. Like, the very fabric of his reality has been stripped away at this point. Yeah.

Not afraid to try anything once. Yeah. Now, one day around this time, McAfee takes too much DMT, and he has a terrible trip. So bad that decades later, he says he still might be hallucinating from it. Oh! I believe that.

I've never done DMT, but like that stays with you. Yeah. It sounds like it haunts you. Yeah. So he also claims that in 1983, he joined AA and stays sober for 30 years. Uh-oh, that was more than 30 years ago. So that's not a good sign.

It's not true. Oh. He just made that up. So just to get some broader context for where we are in the broader timeline of it all, we're now in the 1980s and some coders in Pakistan are in the process of creating what's believed to be the world's first computer virus called BRAIN. It's a white hat experiment, which means the coders don't actually mean to cause any harm.

There's no actual malware. They're just curious about how far the virus will travel and they want to make brains self-replicating. And they even include their contact info into the virus. So they don't really mean any harm, it's like an experiment. Needless to say, it goes pretty far, like all the way around the world, and back to McAfee. So now where others see a security concern and the potential for massive harm, McAfee sees dollar signs, right? There's that door to door salesman for you.

He's like, this is my new people magazine. There we go. And he quickly starts developing antivirus software in his tiny basement while simultaneously maintaining a cocaine habit that would make Wall Street Bros. Weep. So a recipe for, you know, success. And diarrhea. And also a really upset tummy.

Yeah, what's the best idea you've ever come up with in an altered state, we'll call it? Chronic insomnia counts. Taking a gummy and watching local news bloopers. Oh, I love that. I do that sober, baby. I do that sober. Oh, I love that. Oh, it's so funny.

It's the best. When they're trying to recover because they're live, oh. Yeah. Oh, just a dream. Yeah, I don't know if I've come up with any, like, great ideas when I used to drink, but... No, I'm so lame. When I'm drunk, I like to clean.

That's a good idea. That's taking care of future you. I know. And then Future Sober Me is like, oh my God, you're fucking an angel. Guardian angel. That's a truly great idea. So 1987, it's a truly great idea. So, 1987,

it's a good year for McAfee. He gets married for a second time, and he found McAfee Associates to launch his brand new antivirus software. And it becomes one of the first to be distributed over the internet. Then, in 1988, McAfee gets himself onto TV

news for an interview, big deal. And there, he goes full doomsdayer, right? Threatening businesses with collapse if they don't use his software. A year later, he releases a book also clearly designed to alarm people. Let's look at a photo of the cover. Diddlers! Boda diddlers! ["Boda's Dittler's Theme"] Yeah, for the listeners only, the title of his book is

Computer Viruses, Worms, Data Diddlers, Killer Programs, and Other Threats to Your System. Dude, he's a smart guy. I'm terrified. Yeah. Yeah. It just looks like a bunch of sperms going. It does look like sperm! Like we need more men in the world.

Exactly. And your men in the world. And your computer's the egg will be your IUD will be your condom. So by the end of the decade, McAfee software is rapidly becoming a worldwide phenomenon. McAfee nets 4 million customers in one month. Oh my god. That's a lot of money coming his way, yes. Within a couple of years, his annual salary is about $5 million dollars in 1980s money. And every major company that has a computer is using McAfee software. So he's clearly on a roll, but he's not about to be a one-hit wonder.

In 1989, McAfee has another cutting-edge business idea. You see, he's what many couch psychiatrists might refer to as a sex addict. Yeah. And there's this deadly epidemic going around that's frankly cramping his style. So McAfee wants to create a paid ID system for people who do not have AIDS, so they can feel good about going to sex parties. Oh my God. Whoa, I've never even heard of that. Wow, that's somebody who really wants a sex party.

But really doesn't want AIDS. Both fair points, fair points. Literally. So obviously this idea does not go anywhere. The business does not take off the ground. So, McAfee ups the stakes of his software biz instead. And in 1992, a scary new computer virus called Michelangelo breaks onto the scene. Now, supposedly, on one specific day, it'll simultaneously wreak havoc on infected computers

around the globe. That could mean personal data, banking, air travel, it could all be compromised. So McAfee goes on every TV show that will have him and forecasts a digital Armageddon, predicting that at least 5 million computers will be affected. One problem, other computer experts who coincidentally aren't peddling antivirus software think that that number is way off. They say maybe a few thousand computers might be affected. Who do you think is correct? Not the McAfee man.

Not the McAfee man. About 10,000 computers ended up being affected. But by the time McAfee finishes his scare campaign, millions have already found McAfee's sales pitch convincing, and his antivirus software flies off the shelves. I definitely had McAfee software on my... Oh, you did? I absolutely did. It wasn't because of this. It's because my grandmother bought me a Dell.

My dad has a Dell, and I think it still has McAfee software on it. Probably, yeah. And you would always have to like every year, you know, resubscribe and pay all the money and it was just the best and you still got viruses. But if you are Mr. McAfee, can't you just say like the reason that only 10,000

computers were affected is because so many people downloaded McAfee software? Because my software. Look at me, I'm a salesman too. You are. You are. Hey, grownups, I'm Mindy Thomas. And I'm Guy Raz.

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Oh my God. He's so rich, he needs to start hiding his money in offshore accounts, like you do. So he sets up a trust in the Cook Islands, and this will come back to bite him in the butt much later. Speaking of butts. Now this is a segue I could get behind. In the 1990s, the company culture at McAfee Associates is all about badass. There are freaky, drug-fueled sex acts playing out all over the office.

There's even a points system where, depending on where you bang, you get some extra clout. What? You know what this is so crazy is like, when I started trying to become an actor, my parents were always like, or you could work in computers. I should have told them about this.

Yeah, yeah. Like, you sickos. Perverts. So this rivalry does develop between the stuffy suits and the freaky freaks. Now, with so much money at stake and McAfee visibly high all of the time, the suits do win, and McAfee steps down as CEO to become the chief Technical Officer.

By 1994 though, his behavior is just too much for the suits and he ends up being forced out of the company entirely. But with a golden parachute? Oh, absolutely. I mean, he's still super, super rich. It's his name. The shares he cashes out upon his ousting are worth a cool $100 million.

Also, now he's free to go and try something else. Another drug or a company. Or registry for people with life-threatening illnesses. What do you think he does? What do you think his next plan of attack is? Did he invent COVID? You know what I mean? He sounds like a smart guy.

He invented COVID and Moderna. Double dipping. He tries his hand in yoga. Oh. Wow. Oh. That's a left turn. Yeah.

Like starting a yoga company? Kind of. I think it's going to be a yoga cult. There we go. Is it? That's a little closer. He buys a 280 acre ranch in Colorado where he then builds a 10,000 square foot mansion, the perfect place to launch his new yoga empire. Around 2001, he starts a massively successful retreat, a place where people can stretch, listen to his sonorous voice and probably do bonkers amounts of drugs. Now, McAfee takes in, quote, strays to live at his yoga retreat.

Oh, no. Uh, so, like you said, he basically becomes a cult leader. Now, this is the first, but not the last time McAfee throws his money around to build his own world, He basically becomes a cult leader. Now, this is the first, but not the last time, McAfee throws his money around to build his own world, removed from greater society, where he gets to be in charge. In 2006, he gets bored with yoga, and he takes up an extreme sport called aerotreking.

Do either of you know what that is? No idea, never heard of that. It sounds like hiking in the air. Kinda, but really fast. It's where you fly ultra-light aircrafts very low to the ground and follow the contours of the landscape. What? Extremely dangerous.

But also, like, in the nerdiest way. Yeah. But McAfee can't help but turn his weird plane hobby into another business, offering lessons and flights to tourists at his own personal academy. Now, unfortunately, this ends in tragedy when McAfee's nephew, while working as an instructor at the academy, flies into the side of a mountain along with a passenger, which obviously leads to a wrongful death lawsuit. Now, McAfee is given the option to settle out of court for half a million dollars.

Now, if he does, the suit goes away and he's free to go, but he refuses, which leads to a protracted legal battle that opens up his finances and sketchy business dealings. During depositions, the plaintiffs find his secret cash stash in the Cook Islands, and naturally they want to use it as part of the lawsuit settlement. Oh my gosh, and he could have gotten away with it for $500,000? Yeah. Poor guy. That's less than an apartment in New York City.

Even in early 2000s, literally. So that happens. But now let's jump to 2008. Any guesses what happens next? Did he cause the collapse of the stock market? He starts a mortgage loan company. Like let's go. McAfee, I believe in you.

Predatory loans for 15 year APR, whatever. This guy's ahead of the game. I wouldn't be surprised. So yes, of course it is Big Flop Queen, the recession, whatever. Yeah. This guy's ahead of the game. I wouldn't be surprised. So, yes, of course, it is Big Flop Queen, the recession, the financial crisis. And on top of the lawsuit he's dealing with, McAfee's $100 million fortune shrinks to a mere $4 million. Oh, God.

That's upsetting. That's upsetting. Might be bummed. You've lost a lot, but also, wouldn't any of us love to be worth $4 million right now? Absolutely. Yes. Absolutely. Now, according to him, he didn't realize that both the stock market and real estate market

could collapse at the same time. Fair. Meanwhile, Intel is considering buying his namesake company for $7.7 billion. Oh, wow. So money that could have been at least partially his if he hadn't cashed out so early and also been ousted. Right. He didn't really cash out. He was forced out, right?

Literally. So now at one of the lowest points in his life, which is really saying something, McAfee hires someone to liquidate his remaining assets and he takes off to Belize, leaving his family behind, by the way, to just clean up his mess. Oh, he just left him in the dust? Bye, I'm going to Belize. What about that Cook Islands money? Is it still around?

No. He lost it in that lawsuit? He lost a lot of that in the lawsuit and then, I mean, it got found, so that was part of what he lost. Oh, I bet he had some secret account somewhere else too, or a mattress. So, looking for a fresh start, McAfee takes what remains of his fortune and relocates to Belize in the spring of 2008.

Now, there, because so much of Belize is impoverished, his incredible wealth makes him feel like an absolute god. He purchases a swampy waterfront plot and builds a compound near Mayan ruins. Yeah, why would you respect it? Why would you respect another culture's spiritual home? Yeah, that's cute and all, but look at this. I got a dual sinks in my kitchen. Yeah, he calls his new home Xanadu.

Oh, my God. See, he just needs validation. Did not one person in his life just say, you're great? Now, he ends up doing a lot of skeevy things here, of course. So he surrounds himself with armed guards, like big unlicensed guards with huge guns, whom the locals of course find to be intimidating, to say the least. The locals also notice McAfee picking up teenage girls in his boat and bringing them to his compound

for overnight stays or sometimes even longer, giving them personal bungalows to live in. The 67-year-old McAfee, who by this point is using testosterone injections to stay virile, doesn't deny it. He brags about having lots of scantily clad teenage girlfriends, like five at a time, but claims they are all beyond the age of consent. I would like to point out that the age of consent in Belize is 16.

Also, somehow using the word beyond the age of consent feels like you're trying to get around something. Do you know what I mean? It's like... Yeah. Not like they are at the age of consent or higher. It's like, they're beyond consent. Yeah. Just because something is legal, does it make it moral? Totally.

That's the camp he falls in. He's 67 years old and he's like, well, they're legal here. They're teenagers. And so that could be a 16-year-old. It could be a 16-year-old. Literally, he could be their grandfather. Yeah. Besides dating teenagers,

McAfee claims to be there for business reasons, developing herbal antibiotics from local plants. He's even hired an actual microbiologist to help him. To be clear, this microbiologist is on vacation when McAfee offers to hire her, so it's not like this was like the plan all along. He just spots an opportunity when he sees it. Now, unfortunately, he seems to lose interest in the project pretty quickly and then uses the researcher to come up with something else.

Any guesses what drug he'd like to develop? A sleeping pill. A roofie. No, it's a female libido enhancing drug. Oh no, it can't get any worse. That's what he wants to develop for his 16 year olds. Yeah, because it's just their libido that's the problem. It's definitely not him and the attraction. Yeah, so this experiment, it doesn't turn out well. Also around this time, McAfee falls in love with a sex worker

who tries to kill him in his sleep. Yeah. Love this for her, love this for her. I know, good for her. Honey, do what you need to do. Yeah. Now, instead of, at the very least, like, dumping her, he builds her a house just a little further away from him. I kind of respect that.

I kind of respect that. That's the first thing you said about him, where I'm like, okay, well, he's got a heart. He also tries to please her by cleaning up the village, which she says is teeming with drug traffickers and all sorts of crime. How is he trying to clean it up? That's another thing.

He goes to work paying off duty officers to work for him, having them patrolling the streets to look for illegal activity. He fashions himself as a vigilante, even though he is an outlaw himself. He also becomes increasingly paranoid that people might want to rob him, steal his medical innovations, kill him or all of the above. You mean he's paranoid? But he's doing all those drugs. How is he getting so paranoid? I don't know. It's so weird. What is this white interloper

who's throwing all of his weight around in a foreign country? Why would that happen? So yeah, the GSU, aka Belize's gang suppression unit, becomes suspicious of McAfee. Why wouldn't they be? He's a foreigner building a compound in their country. It took them this long to be suspicious. Yeah. Right next to the Mayan ruins. Right next to the Mayan ruins. His home is remote, he has a lab, he could be making meth, hiding guns or worse, and it's their job to monitor that kind of stuff. They say they have more than enough reason to launch an investigation. McAfee tells a different story. He claims they come after him because he refuses to bribe a local politician and because he's trying to clean up the town.

When the GSU officers finally raid McAfee's compound searching all of the houses, they find huge caches of gun, but no meth. So. Well, good for you, I guess. Well, he's also supposedly experimenting with MDPV, a psychoactive bath salt, attempting to purify it. Oh my god. He's doing bath salts.

Now, the reason people think so is because McAfee posts about his experiments online. He's just telling people that that's what he's doing. Later, he claims to a Wired journalist that it's all an elaborate prank that he was just lying about using bath salts on the internet to trick drug users into doing it. Oh my God, amazing. Also, it's like the worst excuse, like, nah, I was kidding.

Yeah, that's not a prank. Just trying to trick drug dealers. You got McAfee'd. You got McAfee'd. You got McAfee'd. Imagine falling in love with someone See you! She was everything he'd ever wanted. There was just one catch. She wasn't human. She was an AI companion. But one day, Lily Rose's behavior takes a disturbing turn and Travis's private romance

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all episodes of Flesh and Code early and ad free right now by joining Wondry+. experts in the business to answer your most intimate relationship questions. Having problems with your man? We got you! Catching feelings for your sneaky link? Let's make sure it's the real deal first. Ready to bring toys into the bedroom? Let's talk about it! Consider this a non-judgment zone to ask your questions when it comes to sex and modern dating in relationships, friendships, situationships and everything in between. It's gonna be sexy, freaky, messy, and you know what? You'll just have to watch the show. So don't be shy. Join the conversation and head over to YouTube

to watch Nick Cannon at night, or subscribe on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcast. Wanna watch episodes early and ad-free? Join Wondery Plus right now. So even though the GSU drops all charges, even the gun related ones, after the raid, McAfee's paranoia reaches new heights and he reinvests in his private army of armed guards and he relocates to a beach house in San Pedro, a popular tourist destination.

Now, San Pedro is a bit safer, but it's also where lots of American expats call home, and his neighbors resent him being there. Which means dogs and meaner guards. For six months, there's tension. He especially spars with one neighbor, a guy named Gregory Fall. Meanwhile, McAfee claims the GSU is stalking him and so he is increasing his protection. It's just this is all adding up on top of each other. Now, another warning, this part of the story does get pretty dark. In November

of 2012, the feud with Gregory Fall escalates when McAfee's pack of aggressive guard dogs run amok in the neighborhood. Fall complains and McAfee's pack of aggressive guard dogs run amok in the neighborhood. Fawl complains and McAfee sends armed guards to intimidate him. So Fawl threatens to kill McAfee's dogs. Soon after, several of McAfee's dogs are poisoned. Yeah, the day after McAfee's dogs are poisoned, Fawl is found dead, shot execution style in the back of the head. Oh, gosh. Yeah.

And when does it get dark? Jeez. According to local police, nothing else in the house is amiss. Nothing's been stolen, so it sure does just seem like cold-blooded murder. I'm not even like trying to cover it up or anything. Just like, yeah, you get what you deserve or whatever.

Basically. So, obviously the town ignites with speculation. And the obvious suspect is John McAfee. Even if he didn't pull the trigger himself, McAfee does have the motive. And he could have just told one of his guards to take care of it or something. But John claims the GSU must have been trying to kill him and accidentally shot Fall instead. Huh? Wait, they accidentally shot someone execution style? Accidentally. Well, I think he meant they accidentally shot him instead of... Like they thought...

Like they thought the wrong target. Okay. No, I was kidding. That's that same excuse. That same excuse. He's so bad. Now, McAfee flees his beach house to avoid questioning, claiming he's been framed and that if caught, he'd be in physical peril. So, what excuse do you think he gives journalists

for why he's being framed for murder by the GSU? Because they're jealous of him. They're jealous of his abs. I have no idea. I don't know. You know what I mean? Because they haven't meditated on Jigongdong. Yeah, there we go. Well, you know, he claims that he hacked the Belizean government for several months, and he has so much dirt on them, they need to take him out.

But then why not provide the dirt? Show the receipts, McAfee! Show the receipts! Yeah, so McAfee's fleeing from the authorities becomes a bigger deal than the murder itself. While on the run from the local police, he calls into news outlets and tells them that he's avoiding the cops by lying in the bottom of cabs,

boats, you name it. He claims to have buried himself in sand for 18 hours and that he's slept on rooftops. He called the news to say- He's literally being like, I'm a rogue agent on the run and I'm doing all of these spy things. Imagine if you were on the beach

and you were like, what is that straw in the ground? Yeah. Just a tech billionaire underneath there, breathing, hiding for the next 18 hours. This story is so wild. A filmmaker contacts McAfee with an offer to extract him from Belize. Yeah, what he discovers is that McAfee has not been hiding buried, understand? He's just holed up in an apartment near Belize City.

Yeah, he's like at a Hilton garden inn. Basically. Yeah. With great Wi-Fi. But it had to be at Hilton, because that's where I get my points. Yeah, he needed to at a Hilton garden in. Basically. Yeah. With great Wi-Fi. But it had to be at Hilton because that's where I get my points. Yeah, he needed to rack up those points. Yeah, so he's lying to the press. Shocker.

Now, this filmmaker ropes in some vice journalist to fly down and document McAfee on the run. Vice will get him. Vice will get him. These two guys, they link up with McAfee, some guards and one of his girlfriends, and John immediately tries to manipulate the narrative. He lies and says the Belizean government has put a $150,000 bounty on his head. And to spice things up, he hints that the journalists, if captured, could be roughed up as well.

So they all try to flee Belize together to Guatemala. What do you think is wrong in this situation? Besides everything. I know. It's like trying to find like, you know, a bad manicure on someone who has, it's like looking at Carrie and being like, oh, your fingernails are dirty. You have something in your teeth. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Long story short, the group crosses the border into Guatemala, but McAfee sneaks in illegally

without getting his passport stamped before leaving Guatemala, meaning he could get deported back to Belize. So that's the predicament they're finding themselves in. Meanwhile, the journalists send a draft of their story to Vice, and they include a photo with instructions to their editors to be sure to remove the metadata since its embedded geolocation information would be included. The Vice editors don't do that, though.

So let's take a look at this photo. This is just like what happened to Reality Winner. So the caption says, "'Oops, did Vice just give away John McAfee's location with photo metadata?' What the heck is the metadata? See, Leslie and I will never be able to track down someone.

Never. That's why we're both just like, yeah, come see me in the night. I know, I know. Our naivete is just like, you can't murder me. I know. Basically, that photo gives Guatemalan authorities and some other international police the information.

And they swarmed the hotel the crew has been hiding out in. Vice soon releases a statement that in short states, quote, we have always been transparent in our filmmaking and will continue that practice. This will be no exception. The story as a whole has engaged people around the world precisely because it is so freaky. So now McAfee is arrested and sent to jail in Guatemala. So, okay, you're McAfee, the myth, the legend. How do you get out of this one?

You know, you just, you put your pants on one leg at a time, you dye pants on one leg at a time, you dye your hair one strand at a time, and you keep moving forward. He started another small business within the jail. I'm positive of it. Well, close. He fakes a heart attack to delay deportation. Oh, nice, nice. You know what? You gotta admit admit there's no off switch for this guy's crazy.

That's true. Now, the fake heart attack does buy McAfee some time. And during that extra time, both the Belizean government and the Guatemalan authorities decide we're done with them. So instead of being deported back to Belize to face consequences, on December 12th, 2012, McAfee ends up being deported back to Belize to face consequences, on December 12, 2012, McAfee ends up being deported to the U.S., the place he was fleeing to begin with. And even though a civil court in Florida eventually awards Gregory Fall's daughter $25 million

for wrongful death, McAfee refuses to pay, saying he was never charged with murder and so the lawsuit makes no sense. Just say there's some smoke. So back in the US, McAfee transforms into a full-time professional eccentric. He marries a woman named Janice, whom he meets in Florida. Janice is, at the time, trying to get away from her pimp. So they're both on the run.

What if you put up the picture and it was Janice the Muppet? Yeah, there's never been a sane Janice. Yeah. So, Janice and John, they moved to Portland, known for its quirky artist community and magic mushrooms. At least, that's the rumor, I wouldn't know. There, McAfee starts trying to do what any has been in 2013, might go viral

on social media. Wow. He tries it. Yeah. In 2013, he releases a video called, How to Uninstall McAfee Antivirus. It's like something you'd see screened during a late night block at a struggling improv theater maybe. Basically, the video features a deadpan McAfee dressed in a smoking jacket surrounded by scantily clad women, mountains of white powder, cheekily labeled bath salts, and enough firearms

to outfit a small militia. What? Yeah. This is like a TikTok video. Back then it would have been YouTube, I'm assuming. But now for our Gen Z and alpha listeners, if you exist, guns and psychosis-inducing drugs used to be considered humorous because the world seemed less bad, okay?

But let's take a look at this video. Oh, my God. Fifteen years ago, I had some beautiful software and they took it over. I don't know what they did. It was like the time I hired that Bangkok prostitute to do my taxes while I fucked my accountant. It was terrible. If that were at a late night improv theater, nobody would laugh because it was like, this is too on the nose. It's too much. Literally on the nose.

McAfee claims he makes the video to make fun of all of the fake allegations, the ones he pretty much starts on his own. Now he's just trying to get back into the spotlight by any means necessary. The video does go viral, but he needs more popularity. So in 2015, McAfee moves to Lexington, Tennessee, and that same year in August, McAfee is arrested for DUI and possession of a handgun while under the influence. His response, you might ask, to announce his candidacy for president of the United States as a libertarian. Oh, for real? Actually.

Yeah. Yeah, actually, I mean, he is doing it because he's broke and he's desperate to make a splash any way that he can. But what do you think would be a good campaign slogan for him? Make America great again. So sad. He names his party the Cyber Party, but choosing not to build one from scratch, he changes course and tries to get an official nomination from the Libertarian Party,

the third largest political party in the U.S. So, do you want to know where he holds his first fundraiser? Larry Flynn's Hustler Club. A strip joint. Sure. You know, all of this stuff probably was shocking at the time, but now it's like, yeah. I know.

So did he win? I know. Did he win? Sorry. Ha ha ha. During debates, McAfee advocates for the legalization of all drugs. He debated.

Yeah. And claims the government is at war with the American people, ceaselessly spying on citizens. Moderator Penn Jillette. No, really. He's a magician and a libertarian, does ask him an uncomfortable question. Wow. Kennedy McAfee, everyone knows that something happened in Belize, but no one seems to have the story. What happened?

What are you accused of? Did you do it? I had absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the murder of Gregory Fall. Good Lord, this country was trying to do with the murder of Gregory Fall. Good Lord, this country was trying to kill me because I had blown the whistle. Next. And how would that affect your candidacy? This information?

Well, I mean, you people are out here. I mean, is this something that is a positive or a negative? Is a man willing to stand up against corruption? Wow, dude. People voted for him. Some people voted for him. People voted for him. Yeah. He's like, yes, I've been accused of murder, but is that a good thing or a bad thing?

Wow. And that's where we're at today. That is our political spectrum right now where we're like, I guess compared to some of the other stuff, I guess I'll give it a value neutral. We'll just leave it at that. The presidential run briefly revives McAfee's reputation and he uses it to commit what appears like it could be fraud.

First, there are campaign financing shenanigans. The campaign raises tons of undisclosed money, perfectly illegal. Then there are classic pump and dump schemes. With the help of a short-lived business associate, McAfee negotiates a plum gig as a CEO of a then struggling online gaming company called MGT Capital. And when it's announced that he'll be the CEO,

the price of the stock goes up like a thousand percent from 25 cents a share. Later, that same stock becomes worth one cent a share. But that's long after McAfee sells them all and makes his money. So yeah, McAfee doesn't secure the Libertarian nomination, but he does better than expected. Like you said, Leslie, people did vote for him. Apparently, years of conning people is good practice for politics. What?

I know. Newst to me? After the failed bid, it is time to move on. But he does pick up a few new tricks and ideas from his libertarian buddies. Now, given that we're talking circa 2017, what grift can McAfee try next? Bitcoin? Crypto. Ding, ding, ding.

Wow. Yep. Yeah. Lie down with dogs, you get up with fleas. Am I right? In 2016, McAfee is gifted his first Bitcoin by a libertarian friend. Nowadays, it would be worth much more, but at the time, it was worth less than $1,000. By 2017, McAfee quickly reinvents himself as a cryptocurrency guru.

Now, if Bitcoin doesn't reach $1 million by the end of 2020, he promises to eat his own dick on national television. Wait, that... Are you serious? What? What? How? How?

How? Give me details. Give me details. Right. I need to know. Is it like a pleasure thing or is it like I'm going to have it surgically removed and fried up with some fava beans and a nice Chianti? Yeah, did he go into detail about?

Not that I know or care to know, but spoiler, Bitcoin's all-time high is currently around $110,000. Pretty far off from that $1 million mark, he unfortunately or thankfully reneges on the promise to eat his own dick. He's making predictions left and right and hyping up new coins on Twitter. It's an easy way to earn back some of the money he lost during that recession. He charges for this influencing services, enabling more pump and dumps, and of course, before he goes online to promote anything, he buys low so he can sell high later.

He does make a fortune doing this, and as usual, doesn't pay taxes on earnings. Now, impossibly, his paranoia reaches stratospheric levels. According to people around him, McAfee ups his bath salts habit, intensifying his hallucinations. He claims government agents are trying to poison him. He claims to have installed secret hideaways across the globe and to have plastic surgery kits stashed in each one. And he refuses to travel anywhere he can't

bring his guns because he's terrified of the quote unquote cartel. He probably means the IRS since he hasn't paid his taxes in eight years, but who am I? Can I just ask a little followup question? Yeah. What's this whole thing about plastic surgery kits? Are those available just anywhere? I know, I'm like, are those on Etsy?

Like, there's at home plastic surgery kits. Oh yeah, this is terrible, but like, what are we talking? Like full face? BBLs, what are we talking? Like, full face? BBLs? What are we talking? Somehow, McAfee has the wherewithal to run for president again. No. Why, he saw who won 2016.

He's probably like, I got a shot at this. Exactly. Now, at this point in 2018, he's living on a boat to avoid U.S. authorities. So let's just be in charge of all of them. If elected, he promises to pardon all marijuana offenders and replace the Federal Reserve with a cryptocurrency system. For the second time, he doesn't get the nomination. Can you believe?

Oh, yeah. Bummer. But he does get himself an interesting tattoo on his arm. His new ink spells out WACKED, spelled W-H-A-C-K-D. I think that's actually pronounced WACKED. He tells his social media followers that if he ever happens to have died by suicide, don't believe it, he's been murdered. Oh my God.

Yeah, so here's where things actually get out of control. In the summer of 2019, he and his gang of boat outlaws get arrested in the Dominican Republic. Instead of being deported to the US, McAfee uses his UK passport to get him and his wife, who by the way, isn't implicated in any of his criminal activity, sent to Europe far away from the IRS. For mysterious reasons, McAfee ends up in Spain where he allegedly meets up with mysterious

Russian businessmen. It's hard to verify what exactly happens because everyone questioned about these folks is too scared to talk about it. But that being said, McAfee isn't long for this world by this point. He spends his last few months ranting about lost liberties during the COVID pandemic. And then the end comes for McAfee in October of 2020 when Spanish authorities arrest him at Barcelona's El Prat airport. An obvious flight risk, he's detained. The US Justice Department indicts McAfee for tax evasion

on millions in undisclosed cryptocurrency earnings. The SEC piles on charges for his various pump and dump schemes. The agencies want McAfee extradited back to the states. McAfee spends eight months in a Spanish prison fighting extradition while his longtime partner, Janice, manages his online presence. Oh, Janice is still around. Janice is just, oh. Just posting on TikTok. She's become a social media manager.

Yeah. My sweet Janice. Look guys, just because my husband said that happened didn't mean it happened, okay? Between the legal battle and the media push, they hope to keep McAfee from being sent back to the U.S. where he's certain he'll spend the rest of his life in prison. For a guy who feels like real life is too restricting unless he gets to do everything that he wants, an actual prison sentence would be unfathomable.

In June of 2021, a Spanish court approves his extradition to the US. A few hours later, prison guards find McAfee hanging in his cell. And this was like 2020 something? 2021. A cryptic message is scrawled on a letter in his pocket, which appears to be in his handwriting. It reads in part, quote, I want to control my future, which does not exist. Yeah, the death is ruled a suicide. The Spanish police bungled the investigation and don't offer too many answers to the public. But because of the webs McAfee's spent weaving his entire life, his sudden suspicious death

spawns a slew of conspiracy theories with his wife and supporters claiming that he was murdered. So let's do a little Where Are They Now? McAfee Corporation, formerly known as McAfee Associates, has had nothing to do with John McAfee for decades and has not been accused of involvement in any of his wrongdoings. After McAfee's death, the US government dropped their cases against him, but the lawyers behind the multiple wrongful death suits continue to seek restitution

from McAfee's estate. However, there is no will and no official estate. And Janice and McAfee technically divorced a couple of years before his death despite staying together. Oh, Janice! I was rooting for you, Janice. Janice, why'd you sign those papers? I know.

And since McAfee's money was wrapped up in crypto, it's going to be an uphill battle to get any damages from the rulings. Meanwhile, some people claim that John McAfee is still alive and well. So here on The Big Flop, we try to be positive people and end on a high. So are there any silver linings that you can think of? Um, we're all aware of the harm that bath salts can do. Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. A cautionary tale.

Cautionary tale, I think that's about it. I mean, I admire his determination and tenacity. Sure. Like, he had it. He had it. I think he was innovative. So I think if you have that in you, like, redirect it for good. Yeah.

Oh, I thought of a silver lining. Janice got away from the pimp. Ha ha ha ha ha! That's great. She got away from the pimp. Yes, and I hope she's like doing well. I love that we're all like pro Janice. We've never met her.

She's probably like the most monstrous human being. So now that you both know about John McAfee, would you consider this a baby flop, a big flop or a mega flop? Oh, I'm going to go mega. I'm going to go mega on this one. Mega flop. I'll do a bunch of baby, a bunch of baby flops. So many baby flops.

Just like a hundred baby flops. Like there's a couple of failed businesses, like accidental murder. Possibly intentional murder. Yeah. Oh, right, right. I know. I know.

Well, thank you so much to our amazing guests, Jeff Heller and Leslie Liao for joining us here on The Big Flop. And of course, thanks to all of you for listening and watching. If you're enjoying the show, please leave us a rating and review or subscribe. And we'll be back next week with another flop. It feels like we all woke up one day and cities across the country were just full of scooters. Remember the scooter boom of the late 2010s? Well we're going to tell you all about the daddy of all scooter companies, Bird Scooters.

Bye! Goodbye, Misha! Bye, Misha. Thank you. If you like the big flop, you can listen early and ad free on Wondery Plus. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple podcasts. Prime members can listen ad free on Amazon Music. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short survey at wondery.com slash survey. The Big Flop is a production of Wondery and At Will Media, hosted by Misha Brown,

produced by Sequoia Thomas, Harry Huggins, and Tina Turner, written by Anna Rubinova and Luke Burns, engineered by Zach Rapone, with support from Andrew Holzberger. The video podcast is edited by Olivia Vessel. Managing producer is Molly Getman. Executive producers are Kate Walsh and Will Mulnonte for At Will Media. Legal support by Carolyn Levin

of Miller, Korzenich, Summers and Raymond. Senior producers for Wondery are Adam Azarath, Matt Beagle, and Jennifer Klein-Walker. Managing producer is Sarah Mathis, and the senior managing producer is Callum Pluse. Music supervisor is Scott Velasquez for Freesong Sync. Theme song is Sinking Ship by Kick. Executive producers are Lizzie Bassett,

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