The Big Flop - How Abercrombie & Fitch Lost Its Shirt with CJ Franco and Leslie Liao | 64

Episode Date: December 2, 2024

In the late '90s, Abercrombie & Fitch CEO Mike Jeffries transformed the once defunct sporting goods store into the hottest brand in America. He did that by intentionally making Abercrombie & Fitch seem unattainable for any kids he deemed ""uncool."" But after crossing multiple lines with racial discrimination, offensive graphic tees, and absolutely appalling thongs for middle schoolers... Jeffries fell out of style. As sales continued to plummet, investors rightfully gave Jeffries the boot.Leslie Liao (The Tonight Show, Don't Tell Comedy) and CJ Franco (FBoy Island, The GOAT) join Misha to pull at the threads of Abercrombie & Fitch.Follow The Big Flop on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to The Big Flop early and ad-free on Wondery+. Join Wondery+ in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts.Be the first to know about Wondery’s newest podcasts, curated recommendations, and more! Sign up now at https://wondery.fm/wonderynewsletterListen to The Big Flop on the Wondery App or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen early and ad-free on Wondery+. Join Wondery+ in the Wondery App, Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Start your free trial by visiting wondery.com/links/the-big-flop/ now.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Wondery Plus subscribers can listen to The Big Flop early and ad free. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple podcasts. At the massive 300-acre wooded Abercrombie & Fitch headquarters in Ohio, journalist Benoit Denizet Lewis shadows Mike Jeffries, Abercrombie's eccentric CEO, for an article in Salon. Jeffries, Benoit notes, is an odd duck. He's in his 60s, but his uniform consists of polos, jeans, and flip-flops, like a middle-aged college kid. He surrounds himself with hot young people everywhere he goes,

on his company's jet, at parties, and here at work, where everyone dresses in Abercrombie, rolls around on scooters, and sits by the big bonfire whenever they're not attending to their bosses' needs. All this while dance music pumps constantly through speakers in every building on the property. It's time to do layouts for the Christmas shopping season. So Jefferies and Benoit enter a dimly lit space meant to look like an Abercrombie and Fitch, the uber-cool store every millennial

tween is dying to shop at. Jeffreys seems agitated. He's already lost his mind over a female mannequin that just didn't look right. The fix? Lower the jeans and pin the pants so she looks skinnier, whatever it takes to make her look less butch. Ew. Now he's fiddling with a male mannequin that doesn't look cool enough. Jefferies beckons a handsome model to enter the floor with the same jeans on. Jefferies gapes at, or rather, studies his look for research. Hmm, this gives Jeffries the perfect idea. Lower the jeans and bulk up the crotch. That ought to do it. Just another normal day of not doing anything that'll end up in a lawsuit, Jeffries probably

thinks. Benoit goes home and types up what he's learned. Little does he know that a decade from now, his article will help topple the Mike Jeffreys era of the Abercrombie Empire. His name is Dexter Morgan, but you know him as Dexter, and nobody knows his beginnings. Enter to win a pair of tickets to the screening of the Paramount Plus exclusive series Dexter and nobody knows his beginnings. Enter to win a pair of tickets to the screening of the Paramount Plus exclusive series Dexter Original Sin on December 12th. Hosted by me, Rick Campanelli. Enter at chfi.com. From student to avenging serial killer, you never forget your first crime. Dexter Original Sin, streaming December 13th, exclusively on Paramount+.

What's the first step to growing your business? Getting people to notice you. But how do you do that? Two words, constant contact. Your struggle with expensive, slow, and unmeasurable approaches to marketing your business is over. With constant contact, get email marketing that helps you create and send the perfect email to every customer.

Connect with over 2 billion people on social media with an all-in-one tool for posting and sharing and create, promote, and manage your events with ease all in one place. Join the millions of small businesses that trust Constant Contact with their marketing success. So get going and growing with Constant Contact today. Ready set, grow. Go to ConstantContact.ca and start your free trial today. Go to ConstantContact.ca for your free trial. ConstantContact.ca. The Big Flop On a sinking ship

From Wondery and Atwill Media, this is The Big Flop, where we chronicle the greatest flubs, fails, and blunders of all time. I'm your host, Misha Brown, social media superstar you can smell all the way from the food court at Don't Cross a Gay Man. And today, we're talking about the CEO that caused Abercrombie and Fitch to literally lose its shirt. ["Dance of the Sugar Plum Fairy"] ["Dance of the Sugar Plum Fairy"] Now everybody on our show today, I'm so excited because we have two amazing comedians, two gorgeous people.

It's CJ Franco and Leslie Liao. Welcome to the show. Hello. Hey, Misha. Thank you. It's an honor. So before we get into the story of Abercrombie and Fitch, I have to ask, were either of you an A&F teen yourselves? I was because I grew up in Orange County, so it was like our uniform.

Oh, you couldn't help it. I couldn't help it. But I also was a little bit team holister. I mean, how could you not? Yeah. I wanted to be an Abercrombie girlie so bad, but I just like, unfortunately didn't have that budget. I did work in some pieces. I was big into eBay, so I made it happen. We made it work. Love that.

I forgot it's pricey. Yeah, it was pricey when we were younger. So it was hard to justify asking your mom to buy jeans with 11 holes in them. She's like, no, absolutely not. All behind those dark wooden shutters was just company stealing mom's hard-earned bucks. Today, we're talking about the hottest, trendiest clothing brand for aspirational teens in the 90s and 2000s, which became the most despised brand in America, lost millions of dollars, and ended up being sued multiple times. Now, this is a warning. This flop gets so bad that both Jeffrey Epstein and Clarence

Thomas make an appearance, if you can imagine. No! Oh my god. Oh yeah. Okay, I did not know this. Okay. And the main player has been back in the news lately for some not great reasons. Which we'll get to. Contrary to what you're probably thinking, Abercrombie & Fitch did not just appear out of nowhere in the 90s to torment awkward teenagers. The company has a long history of waspy exclusionism. Founded in 1892 by a topographer named David T. Abercrombie. By 1904, one of Abercrombie's favorite customers, a successful lawyer named Ezra Fitch, he bought a huge stake in the brand and became a partner. Back then, A&F was a luxury sporting goods store that sold everything a man could want. We're talking sturdy jumpsuits, nice fishing rods, shaving cream, expensive guns, trinkets.

I don't know. I'm not one of those men. For the rest of us, think of it as an anthropology for men who believe in manifest destiny. Oh, I see. Okay, now that makes sense. The brand was a favorite of Theodore Roosevelt, Amelia Earhart, American hero Charles Lindbergh, if you ignore the Nazi sympathizing, and Ernest Hemingway. Then the Great Depression hits. What do you think happened to Abercrombie and Fitch during the Great Depression?

They probably thrived. I don't, I feel like those luxury companies go under. Well, Leslie, you are onto something because it became the largest sporting goods store in the country. Big Five? Not Big Five. Yes, yeah, Big Five bought A&F in after the great war. Yes. But like the rich people thrived because they weren't affected, I'm guessing.

Absolutely. I had no idea this went so far back. Well, this luxury sporting goods era came to a close a few decades later and it was sudden. By 1970, they were losing money and had to pull some of their more extravagant items off of the shelves. In 1976, A&F filed for bankruptcy, was purchased by another sporting goods company, and then sold off again in 1988 to The Limited Group, owned by retail genius Les Wexner. Les specializes in mall chains, either acquiring failing brands and turning them around, or taking successful stores and spinning them off. If you've ever shopped at a Victoria's Secret, Bath & Body

Works, or Express, it's Wexner's fault. I went to Bath & Body Works last weekend. You did? Yes, I'm a Bath & Body Works or Express. It's Wexner's fault. I went to Bath and Body Works last weekend. You did? Yes. I'm a Bath and Body Works girl. You need to do some grounding work. I mean, you have so many options now and that's where you go. It's not even like the holiday. Was there a discount? Bath and Body Works, everything's on sale every day. Every day.

And I'm a discount lady. Like I'm a discount lady. Like that's how this guy Lex gets people like me. I love if the word sale is next to it. I'm a corporate drone. I'm awful. Not a corporate drone. Oh, God. Does it make you feel bad that you got like swept up with these companies that were all intertwined? They raised us.

It does, but like who do we trust? Marshalls. In Marshalls, we trust. Fine. You know, I'm a Maxinista. I'm a Marshals girl. I am an Old Navy girl. Oh, Old Navy? I don't trust Old Navy. In 1992, when our story heats up faster than a summer frat boy on daddy's yacht,

the all-powerful Les Wexner decides Abercrombie and Fitch isn't going to be selling sporting goods anymore. And he hires a new CEO, a freshly middle-aged guy named Mike Jeffries, to turn the brand around. Here he is. Could you describe him for our listeners? He's kind of hot. He's like a hot dad. I was just going to say white man.

Yeah. Like I would be the worst witness in an interrogation. You know, he does look like if you close your eyes and picture an Abercrombie model, like what it was in like its heyday, it would be like that guy's dad. He's like a Ted Bundy, like a blonde Ted Bundy. At this point in his life, Jeffreys has been in the retail game for a minute, but not in a good way. He founded Alcott and Andrews, a brand for career women that quickly went bankrupt.

After that, Jeffreys led the merchandising department at women's retailer Paul Harris, which also went bankrupt. So this might be why from this point forward, Jefferies has no interest in outfitting women. His vision of Abercrombie will focus primarily on sporty boys. How successful do you think Jefferies was on getting boys to wear Abercrombie and Finch? Ooh. I mean, their ads don't feature any clothing. I'm going to say he wasn't good because he was out of touch

with what sporty boys actually wanted to wear. Mm-hmm. I don't know. I was just like a baby. It's like, I'm so young. I don't remember what Abercrombie even is. I mean, all I know is when I was like a teenager, it just appeared and it was a beautiful thing that I couldn't have. And they were mean to me.

That's all I know. Despite his poor track record, Wexner sees Jeffree's potential. And Jeffree's does indeed figure out a winning formula for A&F. He takes the original ethos of the brand from 1892 and uses its waspy exclusive origins, think Teddy Roosevelt, and he pairs it with sexy a la mode fashion, think Calvin Klein, and then he adds a little bit of his own magic fairy dust,

think bigotry. Jeffries and his team start overhauling the brand of his own magic fairy dust, think bigotry. Oh my god. Mm-hmm. Jefferies and his team start overhauling the brand into an all-American, extremely privileged beacon. And they decide that everything, down to the dog a person has, either makes them an Abercrombie person or not. Like, if you drive a Jeep and have a golden retriever,

you're probably an Abercrombie kid. If you have a ratty little poodle and drive a sedan, you're not. Ultimately, and this is only implied, you could have 10 prize retrievers and a diamond-studded Jeep and you are not an Abercrombie kid if you're ugly. Oh, that's real. That's real. That's real. But the thing is, I still bought the stuff. I had a Goldfish and a Toyota RAV4 and I was a five.

I was a junior high five, but I still bought Ava Kronbe. They let me in because I know what they were very smart. They made it exclusionary, but if you had money, they let you in the store. What do you remember from the A&F stores at the mall? The migraines. It smelled like ass. Yeah. I wanted to be there so bad.

Did you go in the store a lot and browse, even though you didn't end up buying anything? You just walked around and touched the sweatshirts? Oh, God, yeah. I was hoping to find something without a sensor on it. You're a thief. You're a thief. You're a thief. Yes.

No, it was so dark in there. I remember it was so dark you couldn't shop. I remember my mom couldn't see anything. So for those of us too young to fully remember, from the outside, the windows are shuttered. And you can only see a big blown up picture of a model in the doorway luring you in or making you too insecure to go in. Now, you might think, Misha, that's just weird.

But for some reason, the shuttered windows add to the mystery and exclusive vibe. It was like a nightclub. Yes, yes. It was exactly like a nightclub. There was loud music playing in it, just like a nightclub. We're talking about those migraines because everything smells like Abercrombie's signature cologne. Do you remember what the cologne was called?

Oh. It's like, you can't have this. It's like unattainable. Young abs. It was like, you're not good enough. Go to therapy. Teenage ab sweat. Bossy Bottom by... No!

I was like, what? They were really on the nose. It was called Fierce. Oh wow. They were tapped in. They were tapped into the culture. I did not remember that. I want it now.

You know what's so funny is I sang on cruise ships for a really long time. And we always had like Eastern European dancers like Ukraine, Russia and stuff. And they were so obsessed with Abercrombie still in like the late teens. And we would have to go to a mall and get them a bottle of that fierce cologne. Oh, do they wear it on the cruise? You're just trapped on the cruise with fierce all around you? Yes. Oh my God.

I would have loved that. That would have been just like panties off. In the first two years with Jeffries as CEO, he does in fact nearly double sales at Abercrombie and Fitch. And Jeffries credits his own meticulous handling of every aspect of the brand for this miracle. I mean, he picks the models, he helps design the clothes. From his headquarters, he masterminds the layouts of every store. And once he's done with the layout mockups, they are photographed and sent to individual stores to be exactly replicated by the managers. How do you think he makes sure they've done it right?

They take pictures, they take pictures and they send it back, no? I don't wanna say he went to every store. Ain't nobody got time for that. He did do surprise store visits. Oh wow. Yeah. And the employees internally called them blitzes.

With only a couple of days notice, the employees pull all-nighters to make sure their store is spic and span. But more importantly, the managers have to consider who is working the floor. They better be hot, they better be white, and all of the other ones better have the day off. Oh. Yeah.

Well, Jeffreys has one more ace up his sleeve, a photographer named Bruce Weber. Now, Weber is one of the most sought after fashion photographers in the world, and for good reason. He's worked with Calvin Klein, Ralph Lauren, Armani, Vogue, GQ, basically all of the big designers and magazines. Weber's specialty is candid looking shots of young men set against nature. Wikipedia describes his book, Bear Pond, as being about his pet dogs. Thankfully, we know better than to trust Wikipedia. So let's take a look at two of these photos of Weber's pets.

Oh. Oh. I don't know how I'm supposed to feel right now. I mean, this is basically like a straight male engagement. Like you know those engagement photo shoots with like a straight couple? It's like that but worse. It's like shirtless hot chiseled man spooning a golden retriever. I think in one of the photos he's about to make out with this dog.

Is it bad that I like these photos? Like I think they've really held up well over time. Yes. I mean, I might have prints of these blown up and put into my home office, but they're certainly not a book about dogs. Of course. It's a little sexual for that. Now at first, Jefferies can't even afford Weber.

So he buys one photograph from Weber and hangs it up at an A&F. But once the money starts rolling in and they partner up, it's game over. Abercrombie and Fitch becomes almost synonymous with young half-naked muscle-clad lads. I'm pretty sure looking at an Abercrombie and Fitch bag was how I realized I was gay. 100%. They're preppy. They're rugged. They're wrestling each other for some reason. Mm-hmm. In fact, let's take a look at a clip.

This is a short promotional film for Abercrombie called Wrestling by Bruce Weber. Oh, hell yes. He's looking at me and I'm looking at him. And you always look for fear in their eyes. We both worked hard, I know that. But he's trying to take my work. That was to advertise Abercrombie. They didn't even have the logo, not even like one person was wearing a shirt with like the A. I'm just,

I'm not mad. I know that we're supposed to be upset. I'm just, I'm not upset. It's, it's tasteful. Like on a standalone spot, like, yeah, it has a vision. You know what I mean? Like it's like a music video. It's sexy, but it does not advertise Abercrombie. I just want to give them my money. I don't care what it's for. I just want to give them my money.

I think you have like deep trauma from like, she still wants it. So she doesn't care whether or not it's problematic. Like, it's so problematic. You need the clothes. I feel like after this, we're going to find out that CJ is the Abercrombie heiress. And it's fucking loaded. No, I work for the company. I was I was put here to soften the blow.

So that short film is a finished product. But Weber also creates copious amounts of screen tests before he and Jeffries agreed to hire certain models. And now these tests, they're their own level of cringe. I mean, there was one screen test that features a man in assless medieval armor. I mean, there were a few where the models were singing, but don't know how to sing.

But this clip, it even gives me secondhand embarrassment. Let's watch. Ask him some questions. Let's see what happens. Where are you headed in that outfit? Where are you going? You look so sharp. Just going out. Oh. Party. So. Taking any girls with you? Just my girlfriend. Can I be your girlfriend? No. That's alright. Wait, is this scripted? No. What is happening? Chad, that was so rude. Did he just turn down the black girl? He did. Frickin' Chad. And she's gorgeous. Like they're both models. Have either of you ever had a screen test like this?

No. No. When I'm wearing a trench coat with no bra and like asking out a model. Like no. No. I've had some weird stuff, but not specifically that. Well by 1996, it's unfortunately clear that Mike's approach is working. When he took over in 1992, Abercrombie and Fitch had 36 stores doing a total of $50 million in sales. Now they have 125 stores and do $335 million in sales. And just a couple of years later in 1999, sales top $1 billion. And the brand has even immortalized

in LFO's rap song, Summer Girls. Oh, I like girls who wear Abercrombie and Fitch. Exactly. Oh, no, no. I bet Lex Werner owned them too. Has anyone looked into that? But back to Jeffries, because Jeffries is overdue for a backlash.

Soon, everything that's made A&F a success, the exclusivity, the snootiness, the flagrant sex, it will all come crashing down on Jeffrey's head. Now, before we go any further, there's still so much to learn about Abercrombie's impact on fashion and culture. So, let's play a game. ["The Gap"] Since we're in the collegiate spirit, think of this as both a crash course and a pop quiz.

So first question is multiple choice. Until it was discontinued, A&F released a quarterly magazine chock full of pictures of boys and a few girls with provocative articles and probably clothes you could buy. What was this catalog called? Was it A. The Magalog, B. The Catazine, C. The Xenologue, or D. The Calgamine? Xenologue. They're all terrible. The third one you said, the Cagamine. Xenologue. They're all terrible. The third one you said, the calgamine. Is that a drug? Wait, these are terrible.

What's the second one? Catazine. It might be catazine. I'm guessing catazine. No, it's the Magalog. Oh my God. It's spelled like Magalog. Oh my god! It's spelled like Maga-log. Yeah, yeah.

You can still buy these on eBay. The 1998 summer Magalog features a female model in a bikini hosing off both a golden retriever and a young male model at the same time. Oh my god. Poor girl. Second question. The Abercrombie & Fitch flagship brand is aimed at preppy college kids. But here are three other brands.

Abercrombie, without the Fitch, is for middle schoolers who want to dress older. Rule is for the 22-35 year old set who don't want to age anymore. And which brand is for high schoolers. Note, Leslie loved this store. Hollister? Oh, Hollister! Ding, ding, ding! Hollister. How was Hollister involved in all this with Abercrombie?

Hollister is Abercrombie. You didn't know that? Yeah, it's also like Old Navy and Gap. They're the same. Oh my God. You guys can't get enough of this Old Navy. They have great affordable athleisure. This is not a math, but they have fantastic affordable athleisure.

Third question. Many of today's celebrities modeled for Abercrombie and Fitch before they made it big. Can you recognize these three? Oh my God, yeah. The middle guy is the you guy, Jennifer Lawrence. Oh, that's Taylor Swift. Oh wait, no. Is it?

Oh my God, it's Taylor? Why would Jennifer Lawrence have a guitar? Okay, wait. You know what? It's very early. It's not at 1.15. I'm very tired. Wait, I thought it was Jennifer Lawrence.

And then is that Ashton? Ashton Kutcher. Ashton Kutcher. That's a young Ashton. Well, he's lived a life. Yes, those are Taylor Swift, Penn Badgley, and Ashton Kutcher. But others include Jennifer Lawrence, Olivia Wilde, January Jones, and more.

Last question. Which of the following graphic t-shirts are not made by Abercrombie and Fitch? A, who needs a brain when you have these? Oh, that's Abercrombie. B, gentlemen prefer Tig ol' Bitties. C. Bad girls chug, good girls drink quickly. Or D. Do I make you look fat?

Wait, these are... Okay. What? D and A for sure. That's 100% Abercrombie. Tig ol' Bitties is not Abercrombie. That is like Spencer's Gifts. That's like Hot Topic. That's not Abercrombie. Tickle Bitties is not Abercrombie. That is like Spencer's Gifts. That's like hot topic.

That's not Abercrombie. Yeah, I would say that doesn't scream Golden Retriever to me. Well, I am so sorry to tell you that they're all real. Oh my God. Every single one of them was a graphic tee at Abercrombie and Fitch. No way. Mm-hmm.

Cause it's off brand, dude. It's not Americana. I love the game. Oh my gosh. I'm sweating. I got really worked up. Apple Watch is saying, are you working out? Hello this is Simon Mayo.

And this is Mark Kermode. He's the UK's best and most trusted film critic. He's a best-selling writer, broadcaster and national treasure. Far too kind. Kermode and Mayo's Take has all the reviews you need and star guests such as Sir Ian McKellen. Nice to be with you. Emma Stone. That sounds like something I would love to be a part of. Ewan McGregor. I'm very good how are you doing? Cate Blanchett. What was that word you used? Cattywampus. Kermode and Mayo's take. All the film you need. Available wherever you get your podcasts. So in 1992, when Mike Jefferies landed the gig as CEO of Abercrombie and Fitch,

he was a normal looking guy who dressed in Oxford shirts and corduroy pants. Going back even further, he wore the same outfit to work every day, usually gray flannel pants, old loafers, and a double-breasted navy blazer. Now cut to the new millennium. He wears only Abercrombie gear, like polos, worn-out jeans, and flip-flops. And he is desperate to look like one of his models. And I mean, he's sort of used to, right? CJ was like, hot dad. Now, you remember the photo I showed you a 48-year-old Jeffreys? Blonde, white dude. Looks like a dad on a CW show. You want to see him at 61?

No, but you're going to show us anyways. I do. I want to see so badly. Here you go. Yeah. Okay. You know what? I got a little too much filler once as well. Is it just all filler? It looks like a ton of filler to me. Look at those lips. He's like, I'm gonna have these big plush lips. See, no one should have money and power.

Because it's like you have all this excess and then what do you do to your face? Did he get a chin implant? This, our boy, he went nuts. So his physical transformation sort of mirrors his internal one. Because as time goes on, people realize he has a dark side. As documented in a Salon article from 2006 by writer Benoit Denisit-Louis. In a riveting profile, BDL gets the inside scoop on Jeffrey's thought processes at his cult-like campus, a sprawling 300-acre HQ in Ohio where everyone is hot and dresses the same. BDL gets Jeffrey's to drop some quotes that are

still being referenced almost 20 years later. And made into graphic teas. And being made into graphic teas, exactly. For example, in 2002, A&F causes a commotion when they release thongs for middle schoolers that have printed on them the phrases, eye candy and wink wink. See, you know what? Old Navy would never do that.

No, they wouldn't. Sorry to keep bringing it back. Here's what Jeffries says in response, while sweating profusely, according to BDL. That was a bunch of bullshit. People said we were cynical, that we were sexualizing little girls. But you know what?

I still think those are cute underwear for little girls. And I think anybody who gets on a bandwagon about thongs for little girls is crazy. Just crazy. What a like, stand to take like thongs for little girls is not like a political platform you need to like associate yourself to. Also, like, I am an adult woman. I don't even wear thongs. I could not get my hands on thongs fast enough. Like, you...

LAUGHS I wanted something trashy. I wanted to be sparkly. I wanted to look like a stripper. And I was 11. You should have bought these. These were for you. Like, you were the audience for these. I did! I mean, who was his PR team? Well, no one was censoring this.

Just say it was for adult women. Stop calling them underwear for little girls that say eye candy. He should have just said it was for college students and just left it there. Well, during Jeffrey's tenure, the clothing for all ages has gotten increasingly skimpier, for the ladies at least. The skirts are shorter, the jeans are lower, and the tanks are tighter. It's enough to give you an eating disorder, ladies, at least. The skirts are shorter, the jeans are lower, and the tanks are tighter. It's enough to give you an eating disorder, which, according to Jeffreys, is kind of the

whole point. Here's what he says to BDL, quote, a lot of people don't belong. They can't belong. Are we exclusionary? Absolutely. Those companies that are in trouble are trying to target everybody, young, old, fat, skinny. But then you become totally vanilla. Where are we supposed to shop? Back then Target wasn't even cool. So where are we supposed to shop? Remember those sexist graphic tees?

Well, they led to protests from feminist and anti-addiction groups. But A&F doesn't just make misogynistic tees, no, they're all-encompassing. Unlike their hiring practices, where they hire mostly white models for their marketing and their stores, their offensive tees are much more inclusionary. No! There is the L is for Loser next to a male gymnast shirt playing on homophobia in male gymnastics. What? Weird, given A&F's aesthetic. Okay.

The Loser shirt leads to a boycott led by the USA Gymnastics president. Mike obliges and pulls the shirt from stores. Now, okay, brace yourselves. A&F doesn't stop there. An entire line of racist shirts trigger protests by Asian American students in Stanford. Let's take a look. This one's got a couple of Asian caricatures on it and it's advertising the Wong Brothers laundry service. And if that's not enough, what does it say? Two wongs can make it white? That's insane. That's insane. Oh, I did see this one. Okay. This was the brand that I tried to wear to be white. So I had to wear

racist shirts against my own people to be cool. You wouldn't wear the Long Brothers laundry store. Why are we doing this? But I was so blind to trying to be cool. I was probably convincing my poor mom, no, it's cool. All the kids are wearing it. It just seems like they were doing whatever. They were doing whatever they wanted. So I was like, this is kind of funny and it's massively offensive.

What's wild is by the time this interview for Salon happens, A&F has already been sued for discrimination and he's still just blase about it all. In 2003, a group of former employees and people who applied to work at Abercrombie & Fitch but weren't hired filed a class action lawsuit claiming they were discriminated against based on their race. The smoking gun in the case? Mike's employee handbook, dictating everything employees should wear down to their skivvies.

It prohibits things like dreadlocks, gold chains. It mandates that all employees have a natural American classic look with pictures of blonde white people as examples. I have to just say I did apply to be, I wanted to be a model at Abercrombie. I wanted it so bad and I definitely applied and it's just, I got nothing. I got nothing like at all. Really? No, no.

What was the application? Did you, did you physically go in and like? I don't even think that they would give me an application. I think they just looked at me and they said, we're not hiring. Oh my God. Well, joke's on them. You became a real model. In spite of them. In spite of them, yes.

Yeah, you didn't need them. A&F settled the suit in 2005 without admitting any wrongdoing, of course, but agreed to pay $50 million. They changed its hiring practices and brought on a chief diversity officer. So it's fixed. So all is well, right? Yeah. No, no, no.

No, of course not. Too easy. Abercrombie's not going to go down like that. Five years after the discrimination suit in 2008, a 17-year-old Oklahoma native, Samantha Ilof, applies for a job at Abercrombie and Fitch. Ilof is perfect. She's into fashion, her interviewer likes her, and as a bonus for the Vane brand, she's adorable. The problem? She's sporting a hijab. The hiring manager rejects Ilof's application saying that no employees are allowed to wear hats.

Oh. Yes. Very weirdly, Jefferies refuses to settle this particular suit and Ilof wins $20,000 in damages. But shockingly, the decision is then reversed in appeals courts. Yes, the 10th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals rules that potential employees need to notify their prospective employers that they need special accommodations before this can be considered discrimination. This case goes all the way to the Supreme Court.

Oh, whoa. Warn-ja Clarence Thomas is a part of this flop. So while all of that is percolating in the background, Jeffries has a business to run into the ground because here comes the Great Recession. Now Abercrombie & Fitch is not the only brand to feel the pinch during the Great Great Recession. Now, Abercrombie and Fitch is not the only brand to feel the pinch during the Great 2008 Recession. You might remember our JCPenney rebrand flop. If not, please go check out that episode.

Now, after the housing bubble obliterates the economy, most retailers struggle to make it through with or without megalomaniacs at the economy. Most retailers struggle to make it through with or without megalomaniacs at the helm. But what sets A&F apart is that Jefferies refuses to offer discounts. That's literally what crushed the original A&F brand. That's against all of my values. Leslie said not a damn chance that I would be caught dead in that store without a sale. I don't pay full price. I protested in the streets.

So A&F has 17 consecutive months of losses, leading one survey to name Jeffries the highest paid worst performing CEO of 2008. Wow! He's certainly overpaid. Jeffreys is collecting an absurd eight-figure paycheck. In 2008, he took home $72 million. Oh, my God. Isn't that crazy? I don't get it.

I seriously don't get it, like, how? They were losing money the entire time. This dude's just doing whatever he wants. Like how? They were losing money the entire time. This dude's just doing whatever he wants. Like, I mean... What I've learned from hosting this show, white men in leadership... Are bad. Doesn't matter. They can run a company into the ground and still get a pay raise. And wait, and that's what he chose to do with his face?

And that's what he chose to do with his face. Yeah, with all that money. Yeah. Couldn't find a better doctor. Instead of adjusting to the situation he finds himself in, Jefferies goes on a tirade against a different situation. Mike, the situation, Sorrentino. What? The reality show Jersey Shore is huge and the very fratty cast members love A&F clothing. Which gets Jeffreys all steamed up.

He offers Sorrentino and other cast members a few thousand dollars to get them to stop wearing Abercrombie and Fitch clothing, saying that he's concerned it will ruin the brand's reputation. I didn't know that! Now, this is ironic, given that Abercrombie and Fitch starts selling Jersey Shore parody shirts with slogans like The Fitchuation emblazoned upon them. The situation, Sorrentino, he refuses the $10,000 he's offered.

Good for him. And actually sues Abercrombie for copyright infringement for the Fituations shirt. Good for him, yes. Unfortunately, he loses that suit. Oh, sad. But meanwhile, the real reputational damage is moving past the point of no return. In 2012, A&F gets sued again, this time by the company's former private jet pilot who claims he was fired and replaced with a younger man. Of course, this suit is settled out of court with no admission of

guilt on Abercrombie's part. Wait, even the pilot had to be hot? Like did he know how to fly a plane? Who knows? He just had to be a hot guy. Like I don't need my pilot to be hot. I need him to be trained. Now that same year, Jeffries is named the worst CEO by a Wall Street analyst. The reason? A&F stock has collapsed 40% that year alone, and stores

have experienced another 11 straight quarters of losses. But most of the public still has no idea how bad Jeffries is. Until in 2013, the Salon article goes viral seven years after publication and Jeffries' young, old, fat, skinny comments blow up. This is thanks to an activist who petitions A&F to carry more inclusive sizes and who asks Jeffries to apologize for the multitude of offensive comments he's made over the years. Now Abercrombie waits almost two weeks to respond, allowing social media to do what social media does, eat them alive. And then, after all of that, Jeffreys finally offers the classic non-apology, quote,

I sincerely regret that my choice of words was interpreted in a manner that has caused offense. I'm sorry you feel that way, minorities. So Jefferies has fulfilled his prophecy. He's revived a dead brand only to put it back in its tomb in almost an identical way to the brand's founders. On December 9th of 2014, he leaves the company and Abercrombie stock immediately goes up 6%. Undeservingly, he still receives a huge $27 million exit package. Must be nice. The new A&F, led by a new female CEO, gets rid of the nightclub vibes, which

means airy, open, bright stores that are not drenched in fierce cologne. Remember that Supreme Court case regarding Samantha Ilof, the teen who wasn't hired because of her religious head covering? Well, in June of 2015, the court finds in her favor, 8 to 1, ruling that Abercrombie violated the religious discrimination portion of the Civil Rights Act. Can you guess which justice cast the dissenting vote?

Claire Bear. Claire Bear. Claire Bear. Come on. Clarence Thomas, you scamp. Yeah. I mean, how many graphic teas do you think Abercrombie gifted Clarence Thomas? Overruled. Overruled, Misha. So let's do a little Where Are They Now? Jeffries keeps making headlines, as we alluded to at the beginning.

Most recently, thanks to a civil class action lawsuit accusing him of sex trafficking more than 100 young men in exchange for modeling gigs, money, and drugs during his time at Abercrombie & Fitch. He of course denies this and the lawsuit is still ongoing. But then just this October, Jeffries was arrested and indicted for similar charges by a federal court. Again, he has pleaded not guilty and the case is ongoing. But if convicted, Jeffries would be facing many, many years behind bars. That's a huge story.

Yeah, huge story. Like that's huge, yeah. Yeah. Speaking of disgusting behavior, remember photographer Bruce Webber? Well, he's been sued by multiple models for sexual harassment. All these cases were settled and, of of course he denies any wrongdoing and continues to work as a photographer. Now I promised you, Jeffrey Epstein as a part of this flop. Well, good ol' Les Wexner, the mall store mogul who hired Jefferies to run

A&F, he has been found tingled up in the sexickers' creepy web. Before his death, Epstein was Wexner's financial advisor. And in a 2002 lawsuit, they were described as close personal friends. Wexner gave Epstein the power of attorney and Epstein reportedly was involved in selecting models for Victoria's Secret. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. To his credit? Wexner cut ties with Epstein years before Epstein came to the public's attention.

Wexner claimed Epstein embezzled $46 million from him and regretted ever knowing him. Wexner has never been accused of any wrongdoing in connection with Epstein. That's just like a dumpster fire friend group. I know. That is a terrible text chain. I know. I wonder if Diddy's on it too. So will Abercrombie and Fitch survive? Only time will tell. By the end of 2018, A&F continued to close their stores, about 450 of them.

But they are currently experiencing a major renaissance, thanks in part to the re-emergence of 90s trends. Fashion blogs also praise Abercrombie and Fitch for their new inclusive size options and their wedding shop. Oh! Oh, I had no idea and their wedding shop. Oh. Oh, I had no idea they make wedding dresses. I'm so excited. Yeah.

Can I get a wedding dress with like a cute little racist Asian slogan on the train, on the veil? Why does it sound kind of amazing? My veil can say, love you, long time. You know? First of all, that's beautiful. You need to get in there. We have ideas.

Now here on the Big Flop, we try to be positive people and end on a high. So are there any silver linings that you can think of that came about from this more than questionable era of Abercrombie and Fitch? Okay, I got this. Ready guys? Okay. Sure. I think that we've done a good job, okay? Promoting dogs and being a good dog owner. Oh. Mm-hmm.

I think it's a good move for the dogs. I can't think of anything. Oh, come on. No, like this. Like, now that I hear it all, the Abercrombie clothes were not that cute to deserve all that scandal. I have a pro old Navy thought. Go to your local old Navy, look for a discount.

And I would say don't try to wear clothes that make you feel cool to other people. Just wear stuff that makes you feel comfortable. Dress for yourself, not for anyone else. Love that. I think it's nice in this story that it was like millennial activists continued hounding them and not letting up something I'm not sure would have been possible in the 80s or 90s. And as a result, it seems like A&F's direction seems to be a more positive one. We are the chains. Now that you both know about the rise and fall of Abercrombie and Fitch, would you consider this a baby flop, a big flop, or a mega flop?

I mean, that's a big flop. We came a long way, but I am happy to see that there is a female in charge that they've rebranded and I do think that you can change and you can evolve and you can grow. So I don't know if it's the biggest flop, but what those guys did, what Gross Daddy did is like, that's a huge flop. I'm gonna go mega. And it's like, I like the comeback

that they fixed it and changed the company. Like now this Abercrombie new wave of it just feels like a completely different company. Just disassociate from what it used to be and like call it New Navy. Yeah, it's on version three. Well thank you so much to our super stylish guests, Leslie Liao and CJ Franco for joining us here on The Big Flop.

And of course, thanks to all of you for listening. If you're enjoying the show, please leave us a little rating and review. We'll be back next week with a real rollercoaster of a flop. It's Tammy Faye and Jim Baker's Christian evangelical theme park that couldn't be saved. Heritage USA. Bye! Bye! Bye!

Bye! If you like the big flop, you can listen early and ad free on Wondery Plus. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple podcasts. Prime members can listen ad-free on Amazon Music. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short survey at Wondery.com slash survey. The Big Flop is a production of Wondery and AtWill Media. Hosted by Misha Brown. Produced by Sequoia Thomas, Harry Huggins and Tina Turner. Written by Anna Rubinova and Luke Burns, engineered by Zach Rapone,

with support from Andrew Holzberger. Managing producer is Molly Getman. Executive producers are Kate Walsh and Will Mulnati for At Will Media. Legal support by Carolyn Levin of Miller, Korzenik, Summers, and Raymond. Producers for Wondery are Adam Azarath and Matt Beagle. Managing producer is Sarah Mathis and the senior managing producer is Callum

Plews. Music supervisor is Scott Velasquez for Freesong Sync. Theme song is Sinking Ship by Cake. Executive producers are Lizzie Bassett, Dave Easton, and Marshall Louie for wondering.