The Big Flop - Howard Dean: I Have a Scream with Gareth Reynolds | 12

Episode Date: November 13, 2023

Some dreams end with a whimper, others with an impulsive and unhinged shriek. Way back in 2004, Howard Dean, the straight-talkin' governor of Vermont was making an improbable run for President. He was riling up the youth on a new thing called the internet, whipping them intro a frenzy with his anti-war rhetoric and eating sandwiches on live streams. Just when it seemed like Dean might actually have a chance at the White House, it all came crashing down. Some call it, "The Scream Heard Round the World" or the "I Have a Scream Speech"-- whatever you call it, Howard Dean was never called "President". Comedian and podcast host Gareth Reynolds (The Dollop, We're Here to Help) joins Misha to relive Howard Dean's doomed candidacy, and the birth of the first political meme.Follow The Big Flop on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to The Big Flop early and ad-free on Wondery+. Join Wondery+ in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Wondery Plus subscribers can listen to The Big Flop early and ad-free. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Trisha Enright is having a rough Tuesday night. She's the communications director for Howard Dean, who's hoping to be the Democratic nominee for president. And Dean just placed third in the 2004 Iowa caucus. Enright and her fellow staffers, who are called Deanie Babies by his critics, only have eight days to prepare themselves for New Hampshire. Going into the caucus, their campaign had been building momentum, so the third-place finish is a little disappointing.

But it's still amazing for a candidate who had been considered a total long shot when he first announced his run. As she talks with her fellow staffers, she notices that all the TVs along the walls of the bar are showing Dean's rousing speech to his supporters after the loss. Dean's face is slightly flushed as he works the audience, pointing and pumping his fists, cheering into the microphone. We will not quit now or ever. We want our country back for ordinary Americans. It was a rousing speech, one that left the room and the candidate feeling energized. And at first, she thinks to herself, wow, okay, clearly he made an impression. But then she notices something strange.

The TVs aren't showing the whole speech. They're just showing one brief clip over and over and over. She remembers this moment in an interview for a documentary by FiveThirtyEight. And it was at that moment that I think we realized that, oh my gosh, this is a problem. Oh my gosh, uh, this is a problem. That problem was a scream. The Dean scream. The scream heard round the world.

Or my personal favorite, the I have a scream speech. But whatever you call it, the scream preceded one of the most surprising and most notable political flops of campaign history. notable political flops of campaign history. My campaign staff realized it before I did, and they came up and said, Gov, we have some bad news for you. I thought they were going to say somebody died. It played into the narrative that was already just waiting to be exposed by the media. It might have been the first ever political meme long before anyone had even ever heard of the term. We are on a sinking ship. From Wondery and at Will Media,

this is The Big Flop, where we chronicle the greatest flubs, fails, and blunders of all time. I'm your host, Misha Brown, social media superstar and class president at Don't Cross a Gay Man. And today, we're talking about the demise of Howard Dean's presidential campaign. the show that takes you inside the lives of our biggest celebrities. And they don't get much bigger than the man who made badminton sexy. OK, maybe that's a stretch, but if I say pop star and shuttlecocks, you know who I'm talking about. No?

Short shorts? Free cocktails? Careless whispers? OK, last one. It's not Andrew Ridgely. Yep, that's right. It's Stone Cold icon George Michael. From teen pop sensation to one of the biggest solo artists on the planet,

join us for our new series, George Michael's Fight for Freedom. From the outside, it looks like he has it all. But behind the trademark dark sunglasses is a man in turmoil. George is trapped in a lie of his own making, with a secret he feels would ruin him if the truth ever came out. Follow Terribly Famous wherever you listen to your podcasts, or listen early and ad-free on Wondery Plus on Apple Podcasts or the Wondery app. Here to help me share the tale of Howard Dean's ill-fated campaign is comedian and host of The Dollop and co-host of We Are Here to Help, Gareth Reynolds. Welcome to the show.

Thank you, Misha. Thank you for having me. I'm excited to relive this. What do you remember about Howard Dean and the Dean scream? I remember thinking it was all very unfair and crazy. I knew it was stupid. I just am like, it's not like, hey, you can't be president stupid. Totally. I mean, this is either a story of someone getting firehosed by their own charisma, or the public getting firehosed by our first taste of meme culture, as I like to think about it.

So before we begin, would you like to think about it. So before we begin, would you like to hear a reminder of that scream in question? I feel like I have good muscle memory on it, but yeah, we should probably hear it again. I definitely need a refresher. Well, too bad. For dramatic narrative purposes, we're going to make you wait until that actually happens. Damn it! Why would you, Misha? I promise it's coming soon. So this story begins in Vermont. So Dean enters politics,

serving in the Vermont House of Representatives after an accomplished career as a physician. And in 1986, he's elected Lieutenant Governor of Vermont, but when the governor dies, he steps in. It's the dream situation for the lieutenant governor. Yeah, but you know what? He did make the most of it. He didn't just fluke into that job because he was reelected five times. Oh, wow. Okay. He particularly cares about health insurance. And while he's governor, the uninsured rate fell a lot. Child abuse and teen pregnancy rates also went

down about 50%, which is pretty nice. And maybe even more than his policies, people love how Howard Dean is an independent thinker. I mean, he was one of the few outspoken leaders opposed to the Iraq war, you know, before it was cool. But that decision ages poorly. I think we all look back on Iraq now and realize that was essential. Let's listen to the opening line of a speech he gave in March of 2003 for a convention of the California Democratic Party a couple of months before he got into the race. Okay. What I want to know is what in the world so many Democrats are doing supporting the president's unilateral intervention in Iraq. It would have been great if he just let the scream rip there, too.

Like it's his closer. Instead of a catchphrase, he has a catch scream. You know, there was a lot of us at the time felt very alienated by the way that you could not really ask questions about what was going on with the war on terror, quote unquote. That's true. Yeah. But I love that opening line. Yeah. It's right to the point.

He stuck it all the way in. It's like, buy us dinner first. Yes. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. You know, but you're right. This was not a hugely popular position back then amongst the Democratic leadership.

So, I mean, dang, shots fired right away. Yep. So, the guy introducing Dean at his speech says, you may not agree with everything he says, but you'll know where he stands, which sounds about right. It's true. People find him authentic and progressive. which sounds about right.

It's true. People find him authentic and progressive. So Dean, then aged 54, decides to make his campaign status official. You have the power to take the White House back in 2004, and that is exactly what we're going to be doing. You have that power. You have the power. You have the power.

You have the power. You just the power. You have the power. You just know the screams inside him already. We haven't heard it yet, but you can tell he's ramping into that version. It's coming. Yeah, so far, I really like him, right? He's the Oprah of politics. You get a power. You get a power. You get a power. I love it. Look under your seats. I love it. Look under your seats. So when Dean announces his campaign, ABC News ranks him pretty low down-ish among the candidates.

John Kerry and John Edwards were in the pack, but we'll save their political flops for another episode. Sure. So Dean is considered a long shot, in part because he's often out of step with the broader Democratic Party policies. You know, he's running on that affordable health care for everyone. Disgusting. And opposition to the Iraq war. Disgusting. How dare he?

Yes. So these are issues that might separate him from the Democratic Party leadership at the time, but it also gets the attention of another demographic, a big demographic, and that is the youth. So where do you find the youth in 2003? Skate parks, malt shops, hopscotch boogies. All right. Well, they were on this kind of new thing called the internet. Ah, intramnet.

That's the one. Yeah, intramnet. Yeah. That's the one. The thing you plug into your typewriter and stuff. That's it. So this brings us to our first game. Just as New York is a character in Sex and the City and Casablanca is a character in Casablanca,

the internet is very much a character in the Howard Dean story. And she's changed a lot in the past two decades so we are going to play a game to get us back in the mindset of 2003 ready okay it's a trivia game and it's multiple choice so i'm going to ask you a question and give you a choice of answers you tell me what's right. Okay. First question. What was the number one website in 2003? Was it A, Google, B, MSN, or C, Yahoo? I'll say Yahoo. Wow.

It was Yahoo, then MSN, then Google. What a time. Fun fact, this was the first year that Google outperformed AOL. Yeah, this was around when I had to get rid of my AOL address. People were looking. Too many side glances. Second question. What was the most popular way that people used the internet in 2003?

Was it A, cat videos, B, email, or C, pornography? Oh, listen, cat videos have taken us by storm, there's no doubt. Email's very important, but I think it's got to be porn. No, the answer was email. Wow. But they were emailing porn. That's what they were doing. Maybe it just took too long to load. It did, but I remember when I was in probably high school waiting for a topless picture of Tiffany Ambrithiessen to come through, and it took like 30 minutes, and I had no issue being patient waiting for that. I was like, this is earned. It felt like I'd worked on the farm for it, you know what I mean? Yeah. Okay. Next question. In 2003, what percentage of American adults used the internet? A, 23%, B, 63%, or C, 93%? 23 feels low. I would say 63%. Yes, you are so good at this game. So 63%, and also fun fact, 87% of the US internet users said that they had the access at home and 48% said they had access at work. Oh, wow. Even at work, only half of them had access. That's crazy. Yeah, it's weird to think about, right? Well, there's a lot of those

old bosses who were like, it's going to be a flash in the pan. Write it down, do it cursive. Yeah, I'm from Rochester, New York with Kodak. So like our whole city is like, yeah, that old man who just didn't want to pivot to the news. The blockbuster of towns. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. All right, and finally, a bonus question. This is a fun one.

Can you identify this sound? Isn't this insane? It's just like the fact that there are people who will not know what the hell that is Yeah, that's the dial-up The dial-up sound was a nightmarish

It sounded like someone was murdering a fax. As you can see, the internet in 2003 was way less prevalent than today, but it was astronomically growing. So that is the landscape of Dean's campaign. And of course, who's online the most? The youths. So maybe to the Democratic Party,

Dean's an annoying firebrand, a pox to establishment Washington. But younger people loved his philosophy and they love his honesty. Which is a thing that I think my whole life I've been watching the Democratic Party be like, let the old people handle this. We're young, we're the future.

Here's a clip of him on FiveThirtyEight. The capture of Saddam is a good thing, which I hope very much will keep our soldiers in Iraq and around the world safer. But the capture of Saddam has not made America safer. Hugely controversial at the time. Right? It's true. Yes. But it does sort of feel like it's against

the rules of American patriotism or something, right? If you watch any of those first three, four State of the Unions from George W. Bush, the Democrats are standing up and applauding just as much as the Republicans. They are united on the fact that we are a military country on the prowl. And if you ask any questions, you're unpatriotic. Absolutely. But Dean is unapologetically anti-war. He lost his brother in Vietnam. He was scandalized that U.S. presidents on both sides of the aisle had lied to the American public about their involvement. You know, he doesn't abide lies and nonsense, and he will go off. We have a clip of him chiding a cameraman who got too aggressive with another reporter.

Oh, wow. Have a listen. If you guys don't stop this act, you'll never get another interview with my behavior stuff, and stop this nonsense. It's very much dad's going to turn the car around energy. Yeah, right?

I love it. But it's probably the only time a politician has defended a reporter. Yeah, now that is not how it works now. You'd be like, no, no, beat his ass. Throw him in the ground. Put him in that, drown his face. But he, you know, Dean, he definitely admits that he's a little bit different of a candidate. Here he is in an interview with Diane Sawyer. Do I do things that are a little nutty? Sure, I do things that are a little nutty. You know, you're like somewhere when you're doing the ask yourself

questions, you answer them thing. Athletes do that a lot where they go, yeah, do I go out there and leave it all in the field? Of course I do. It's like, yeah, just you can just answer the question, dude. So while the political establishment might not be loving Dean, America's youth, they are. So they are inspired by Dean's message. Dean, he's channeling his energy into them. They're channeling their energy into him. It's this kind of self-reinforcing cycle. And in a documentary with FiveThirtyEight, Dean describes how he would, quote, succumb to his impulse to crank up the crowd. So I guess here's a good time to like pause. Like what, what are your thoughts about Dean at this time? I'm with him. I mean, I'm definitely with him. You know, it's reminiscent

of other campaigns I've seen since then where, yeah, there is an outlier who is speaking to the issues that are considered too hot. But you know, there's a doctor talking about trying to get healthcare passed. And, you know, speaking like this was really refreshing. I do love the foreshadow seed of his vibing with the crowd. I remember them all saying, he can't win. He can't win. He can't win.

Which is unpresidential, those vacuous terms that they keep floating out there. You're right. He was considered a long shot candidate. His staff's strategy was to aim for third in the Iowa caucus. Wow. I mean, that would be a pretty big victory for such a long shot candidate. But then something strange happens. shock candidate. But then something strange happens. So a year prior to Dean's campaign, a new website called Meetup launches. It's a community building website, and it's still around today. I mean, people have groups about all sorts of things that interest them, from groups about pickling foods, to groups for cudduddling to groups for ambidextrous

tennis players, literally anything you could imagine. I like ambidextrous cuddling, so that's actually, link me after the show. You know, but all of a sudden, meetup groups for Howard Dean start popping up everywhere. Oh, wow. These aren't just message boards, like for fandoms. Meetup's motto back then was, quote, using the internet to get off the internet. Wow. Yeah. So this was about getting people to show up. Right. Basically a tool for community organizing. Love it. And I mean, for a presidential hopeful looking to energize youth, that's exactly what he needs, right? Right. So at the height of his campaign, Howard Dean is the number two most common subject of meetup groups. Wow.

That is nuts. You would think drugs, sex. I mean, truly. If you're beating sex, you are doing fantastically. So you think number one during that time was sex? I mean, I don't mean to just perverse the internet, but this might be before we realize this thing

is, again, such a dark, dark thing now. Maybe, I mean, I would think drugs or sex. I really would. I mean, I'm just thinking me then, I would be like looking for pot. Well, luckily for you, we've done our research and we know what number one was. Oh, wow. This is where I seem like looking for pot. Well, luckily for you, we've done our research and we know what number one was. Oh,

wow. This is where I seem like a real creep. People have flower pressing you. It is witches. Oh my, what? Good God. The naivety of the American public.

That is not, it's not, not troubling. Witches. Witches. How silly. Would you have joined the witches meet up group i mean yeah but i would have been looking for pot i'd be like yeah yeah anyone got a spell for marijuana yeah i love it yeah i brought my broom i got a cat listen oh my gosh well these groups are knocking on doors they're hosting fundraisers and remember like fundraisers on both

sides of the aisle are usually dinners that cost thousands of dollars to attend, right? We know. But Dean's campaign is grassroots and the water for that grass is the internet, baby. So Dean's young staffers are like, we can do one better. A quick side note, his staffers and young supporters, by the way, are called Deanie Boppers. That's a problem. Or Deanie Babies by his critics. It's a bigger problem. Those are both bad.

Just because it's a good pun, it doesn't mean it. I'm a walking lesson of just because if it's a good pun, you don't have to say it. There's many puns that pop into my head where I go, nah, it's not worth it. The juice isn't worth the squeeze on this one. Well, those staffers, they have Dean eat a sandwich in front of a webcam. That was their big idea, but it paid off. What?

According to FiveThirtyEight, they raise $625,000. Okay. Truly, that feels impossible. I feel like it makes sense today. I feel like the witches are at play with this one. Eating a sandwich? Do you know what kind of sandwich?

Like if it was like anchovies, I'd be like, okay. It's like kind of a weird, but if it was just like a ham sandwich, I just, that really does show the popularity. Well, Gareth, the sandwich he ate was indeed a ham sandwich. It was ham. It was ham. I don't know. It really shows you how starved we were for content. That does show you that we needed content so bad

that we were like, wow, ham. He's just like us. Yeah, he's just, look at those bites. This guy knows how to run a budget. Look at the way he's budgeting those crusts. You know what I like about him? He's going crust first. He's going to just take on the system. Well, going into Iowa, the big question is, will he come in second or third?

So third doesn't feel awesome now like it once did, but then it was looking pretty sweet. So Dean and his team, they're gathered in a room. They're watching those results roll in. And it's called early. Kerry wins the Iowa caucus. So now it's just a question of who will come in second. And it turns out to be Edwards. So Dean has gone from long shot candidate to front runner to third place. And what's more was thousands of Dean's fans have turned out in 20 degree weather hoping to see their guy take it home. Right.

I mean, the crowds cheer for him. They're so loud you can hardly hear yourself think, let alone talk. Yeah. According to Dean, in the FiveThirtyEight documentary, someone gives him a directive. Eat more sandwiches. Do not arrive. Never don't be chewing. Yeah, we need more sandwiches. Do not arrive. Never don't be chewing. Yeah, we need more money.

No, it was, quote, letter rip is what he was told. Oh, God. Was this John Kerry in like a mask? Oh, man. Dean tears off his jacket as his fans cheer and shout. He rolls up his sleeves and starts pointing at the audience in that classic politician bonding with his people pose. The way he's moving around the stage, you'd think that this was a victory speech. Right.

Let's play a clip. I was about to say, you know, I'm sure there's some disappointed people here. You know what? You know something? You know something? You know something? If you had told us one year ago that we were going to come in third in Iowa, we would have given anything for that. You know, I mean, the media is constantly trying to sandbag this guy. So third is good. Yeah. So he's trying to remind them that this is only one setback. Yes. And so he reminds them of all the places that they'll go next.

Oh, God. Not only are we going to New Hampshire, Tom Harkin, we're going to South Carolina and Oklahoma and Arizona and North Dakota and New Mexico. We're going to California and Texas and New York. And we're going to South Dakota and Oregon and Washington and Michigan. And then we're going to Washington

D.C. to take back the White House. Oh, God. All over the map. It's just, it sounds like the state rap. It is too much. It's, you can tell he's around people who love him because he's just like, yeah, I'm hot.

You know what? I'm going through, then we're going to go to Alaska, the lost city of Atlantis. I mean, if he went through all 50 states, that would be just incredible. Just singing Alabama, Alaska, Arizona, Arkansas. So he's shouting into the microphone as the crowd roars. And then it happens.

The moment that lives in infamy. Are you ready? Are you ready for the scream? I feel like I am, but I also feel like it's going to be tough to hear. So someone should have just thrown a sandwich in his mouth, right? When this is about to happen. But I am as ready as I'll be. All right, let's play it.

Ah! It is nuts. It's nuts. Can we hear it one more time? Is that possible? Yeah. Ah! You know, should not disqualify you from being president, but it's also just not how screams work.

It's just strange. Yeah! If I was at a sporting event and this guy was about, I'd be like, we should move. There's some seats over there that are open. Well, let's go there. This guy's a little drunk. But you're right. I don't think it's something that derails a presidential campaign.

No. But also, the funny thing is, in the moment, Dean and his team, they didn't feel like anything weird happened. Which is great, too. The people were so loud in the room that you could hardly hear them in real time. So, I mean, they left the event feeling bummed about the results, but very much alive. Yeah, some guy was probably like, Howard, next time, I think more states. Name more states. Yeah, more states. Make that scream a little longer. Let's get into it. Yeah, some guy was probably like, Howard, next time I think more states. Name more states. More states. Make that scream a little longer. Let's get into it.

Yeah. Yeah. But this is when his communications director, Tricia Enright, is in a bar and notices it playing on loop in the media. And it slowly dawns on her, we've got a problem. So here she is talking about it on 538.

It exploded so quickly that there was no way we could contain it. Oh, God. Is this what you remember? Like this moment? Yeah, oh yeah. It's a dumb scream. There's no doubt that it's like a super dumb, weird scream. If screaming was really important to what our politicians did,

you'd be like, you need to scream better. But it could have so easily just been nothing. But even what she's saying, like it exploded. Well, it exploded because they needed something to explode. And this was just kind of the easiest meat on the bone. I was watching it just going like, well, yeah, it's dumb, but so what? I feel like today it would actually work to his advantage. He should have just called it a locker room scream. A locker room scream.

There's no guys screaming in the locker room. This is what we're doing. We're slapping each other with towels and yelling in the showers. I mean, nowadays it's a positive if the president can name the states. Yes. Yeah, right. Yeah, that is actually, yeah, it was an overflex is what it was. Yeah. Well, this played on every news show, cable show, late night show. Back then, it's kind of wild how much this went viral, given that this is before things like YouTube and widespread use of social media. I think this quote from an NBC News article published on the 15th anniversary

of the Dean Scream sums it up pretty well. Coming just two weeks before Facebook was created, a year before there was a YouTube, and two years before there was Twitter, it was arguably the first meme in politics long before it entered our vernacular. That is crazy. Yeah. It was totally one of those things that was everywhere. I guess the question is, did it deserve to be

and how much was it just orchestrated because it was working? It was effectively making him seem unhinged. But you know, it wasn't just the news media that ran with this. It turns into a pop culture event. So there's a little montage of how late night hosts went to town on the coverage. So you're going to hear from Jay Leno, Dave Chappelle, and Jon Stewart. Did you see Dean's crazed speech the other night? Yelling and screaming. I realize why his wife won't campaign with him now. I'm going all over the world, and then I'm coming all the way to Washington, D.C.

to take back the White House. Yeah! Dean will be driving to all those states, apparently in Truckasaurus. And he will do it on Sunday, Sunday, Sunday! Yeah! Yeah! Yeah! Aye, aye, aye.

The thing is that it was a moment. So if you're in comedy, you have no choice. I mean, I think that all the time. I mean, you just have, you know, you have no real choice but to address the elephant in the room with some of that stuff. You have a good joke, and you know it's going to crush. These jobs are hard enough. If you're writing for The Daily Show,

every day you're writing this sort of stuff, you're going to obviously have to poke fun at it. But it isn't there because it's a nightmarish scream. It's there because everyone knows about it, and it's just all over TV, and it's one of those things. So you kind of can't begrudge the late night people for doing that. Absolutely not. It was out there. It was popularized, you know. It was funny. Yes. I mean, that's it. Given the journey that we've been on

politically since then, is there any equivalent to this moment? You know, when Trump said the thing about grab women by the pee, a much more violent, sexualized version of a scream. But I think it really was a moment where everyone was like, oh my God. And I think worse than the scream, again, I mean, the scream is, you know, is fairly innocuous as to what it is. But that to me is the only one that feels like it outdid it to me. Obviously, it didn't stick. I mean, you know, we've all sort of been baffled by Trump's ability to not have things really affect him. But when I heard that one, my jaw dropped. I thought, oh, this is over. This has to be over. This cannot possibly, he cannot possibly come back, especially in the back of my head, probably thinking if Howard Dean's scream ruin is, I mean, this guy's talking about grabbing genitals without permission.

Yeah. On tape and he's laughing. You know what I mean? I was like, it has to, to a man named Billy Bush, of all things. Of all things. You know, I've just seen versions of the media takedown. The Trump one is obviously kind of the opposite because it's so egregious and yet it didn't work. And the Dean scream is so innocuous and it did work. And it really shows the power that cable news and television in general had on the American public.

Still does, kind of. And this is where it gets really crazy. in public still does kind of. And this is where it gets really crazy. This moment, it was treated like a grave wrongdoing. So Diane Sawyer sits Dean down to do an interview with his wife, Judy, the kind of thing you'd expect when a candidate has, I don't know, an affair. Yeah. So just listen to how this interview is set up. An emotional turning point in his campaign for president. And for the first time ever in his long political career,

the candidate's wife, Dr. Judy Steinberg-Dean, joins him for her first TV interview. How does she stand by a man who can make such weird sounds? When I tell you this interview is crazy. I can only imagine. Dean and his wife, they clearly have a great supportive relationship. Sure. So in this interview, they're sitting close together as they're being interviewed.

Meanwhile, Diane Sawyer goes all in, trying to set up this as a major marital issue. Oh, what? all in, trying to set up this as a major marital issue. What? So this brings us to our next game, which we'll get to right after this break. so dean and his wife agreed to their first joint interview and we're going to play a little game about it it's called which of these things are actual things diane sawyer asks during the interview oh my god real or fake she asks judy does your husband have a temper? I think that's real. I could see her drawing a connection to it being a violent scream to some extent. It was real. And Judy's answer is basically, not really, no.

You don't want to hear him orgasm, though. Okay, next one. She asks Dean, do you wish she'd been out on the trail with you more, real or fake? I'll say fake just because I think that would seem off topic from the nightmarish yell. No, that one was real.

Okay. I think maybe trying to say, are you so pent up? Your wife's not supporting you? Bring some feminine energy around your man screams. Yeah. Basically, he said no because he respects and admires her career. What a dick.

I know. How dare he? All right, next one. She asks Judy, are you going to divorce him? Oh, God, no. Can't be. Even for Diane Sawyer, no. Yeah, you're right.

That one's fake. She asks them both, so what do you two fight about? Oof. Real or fake? It just feels like a terrible question, but I think it would be real. It should be fake, but I'll say real.

It was real. Wow! How dare you? That's what she asked them. How dare you? Again, their sentiment was like, not really. Mind your business? Not much.

Yeah. What? He just screamed. He's yelling states. Oh, my God. I don't know. Diane Sawyer is, because she makes serious journalist face, people take her seriously. In reality, she's like TMZ the person.

She always has been. Yeah. It's just that she makes that very hmm face. You're like, oh, I guess like TMZ the person. She always has been. Yeah. It's just that she makes that very hmm face. You're like, oh, I guess I gotta tell her what we fight about. In the days immediately after the scream, Dean's campaign starts losing endorsements. And despite a second place finish in New Hampshire, things are going downhill.

He lost the which vote I heard? No coming back from that. No, no. But he did lose backing from a major labor union. He slips behind Kerry in early returns in Washington's Democratic caucuses. During the Wisconsin primary, he tells a Milwaukee radio station that he's open to being someone's vice president on their ticket, which is hardly a sign of confidence for someone running for the presidency. And finally, a month after that fateful scream, after coming in third place at the Wisconsin primary,

it should come as no surprise. Dean drops out of the race. We're not going to go to Oklahoma. We're not going to go to Nevada. I hope you bought the travel insurance. I'm going to go to Maine and lay on the couch for a while. This is nuts. But he did leave some nice parting words.

He tells his supporters, quote, you have already started to change the Democratic Party and we will not stop. We have a long way to go. In order to fundamentally change America, we have to change Washington, the Democrats, and the Republicans. Spoiler, we still have a long way to go. Yeah, I know. You wish it was coming from someone with power, but, you know. Let's do a little where are they now. Okay.

So, of course, Howard Dean didn't go on to win the nomination or become president, but neither did the actual Democratic nominee, John Kerry, because George Bush got reelected. Since the scream, Dean served as the chairman of the Democratic National Committee from 2005 to 2011, where he created something called the 50-state strategy. Don't shout them, Howard. Yeah, don't yell. We don't need to follow them. We know, we know.

But basically, it was a push to make sure that there were competitive Democratic candidates in all states and at all levels of government. The movement helped the Dems win back Congress in 2006.

Diane Sawyer backtracked on her interview and apologized for being so heavy-handed with the deans. That might be the best update. So here on the Big Flop, we do try to end on a positive note in fairness to everybody. So can you think of any silver linings that came from this? You know, again, I mean, it's a small donor funded campaign is always a threat to the

establishment. Yep. At some point, someone will break through and not be a candidate from the establishment who represents the establishment, who has these super PACs, who is funded by billionaires and funded by this, that will happen. My only advice to them would be, don't scream. And I'll add that the grassroots approach to raising funds on the internet set the stage for progressive activism. I mean, it certainly helped Obama win the presidential election in 2008. And there were definitely some Deany babies in Obama's campaign staff. One thing we did find these days, Dean is good humored about the incident. During a 2016 Democratic National Convention, he poked fun at himself by reenacting a portion of his I have a scream speech.

I have a scream is so good. That's so funny. So he can at least laugh at himself. So that's pretty good. Yeah. Knowing everything about the Howard Dean presidential campaign, would you consider this a baby flop, a big flop, or a mega flop? Well, it's both a baby flop and a mega flop because his flop is baby. He screamed. It was so baby. But in the annals of flop history, this unfortunately has to be labeled mega

from such little fault of himself. I mean, it didn't have to be this way. But I think when you think about it ending your campaign, I think it's a mega flop. Well, thank you for joining us, Gareth, to walk along maybe one of the quaintest epochs of political scandals.

What a disaster. quaintest epochs of political scandals. What a disaster. We'll be back in a couple weeks with brand new episodes on some epic flops, including Theranos, Ashley Simpson's lip sync fail on SNL, and one that you've all been requesting, Fyre Festival.

Keep an eye out next week for a special bonus episode on box office flops. And as always, thanks for listening. Bye! If you like The Big Flop, you can listen early and ad-free on Wondery+. Join Wondery in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Prime members can listen ad-free on Amazon Music. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short survey at wondery.com slash survey. wondery.com slash survey.

The Big Flop is a production of Wondery and Atwill Media, hosted by me, Misha Brown, produced and edited by Levi Sharp, written by Marina Templesman, engineered by Zach Rapone. Our executive producers are Rosie Guerin, Will Malnati, and Samantha Story for At Will Media. Developed by Christina Friel.

Legal support provided by Carolyn Levin of Miller, Korzenik, Summers, Raymond. Producers for Wondery are Matt Beagle and Grant Rutter. Senior producer is Lizzie Bassett. Senior story editor is Phyllis Fletcher. Managing producer is Ricky Wiebe. Music Supervisor is Scott

Velasquez for Frizz and Sink. Our theme song is Sinking Ship by Cake. And Executive Producers are Morgan Jones and Marshall Louis for Wondery. We are on a sinking ship.

We are on a sinking ship