The Big Flop - Jen Shah: From Real Housewife to Real Prison Time with Watch What Crappens | 92

Episode Date: June 16, 2025

When Jen Shah fled a Bravo filming location minutes before federal agents arrived, her castmates thought the cops might be strippers. They weren't. Instead, they were there to bust a multimillion-dollar fraud scheme that would send this Shah-mazing housewife from designer ski wear to prison jumpsuits.Be the first to know about Wondery’s newest podcasts, curated recommendations, and more! Sign up now at https://wondery.fm/wonderynewsletterListen to The Big Flop on the Wondery App or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen early and ad-free on Wondery+. Join Wondery+ in the Wondery App, Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Start your free trial by visiting wondery.com/links/the-big-flop/ now.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Imagine a world where you could listen to The Big Flop without any breaks? Newsflash, you can! By joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or in Apple Podcasts, you'll get early access to episodes of The Big Flop and enjoy them entirely ad-free. It's the ultimate way to immerse yourself in the drama of these business debacles. Y'all, I love a mess as much as the next person, and there is nothing messier than a real housewife of wherever. And even though most of their problems seem super superficial, it's incredibly entertaining. I mean, it's not every day that a housewife is caught on camera evading arrest. You'd think if you're, I don't know, committing fraud, you'd lay low, maybe not become infamous on Bravo for things like what my guests refer to as the famous Topgolf episode. Let's get into it, besties, because things are about to get

Shaw-fully messy. Now to the federal fraud investigation involving Real Housewives of Salt Lake City cast member Jen Shaw. Jennifer Shaw allegedly profited by generating lists of victims to fraud them. You claim not guilty to both charges. Jen, the brown girl and her black husband, how do they get all this money? Oh, my gosh, it must be through something illegal. Jennifer Shaw presented herself in court, Looking Looking for the ultimate online casino experience?

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Always keep your dog on a leash in public. Learn more at toronto.ca slash leash your dog. A message from the city of Toronto. From Wondery and Atwill Media, this is The Big Flop, where we chronicle the greatest flubs, fails and blunders of all time.

I'm your host, Misha Brown, social media's superstar who loves Shawmazing trashy reality TV, at your bestie Misha. And on our show today, joining us once again, we have the hosts of Watch What Crap Ins, it's Ben Mendelker and Ronnie Karam. Welcome to the show, besties. Hi. Well, hello, Misha. How are you?

I'm good. Are we officially in a throuple? We are. We're in our third throuple, too. Power of threes. It is. This is the most in a row dates I've been on in a long time. Okay, so before we get into Jen Shaw, I have to ask, how familiar are you with the Real

Housewives universe and Jen Shaw's place in it? We love this. We've watched every single episode. We've talked about every single episode for probably three times the amount that the episode actually was on. So we love this. Real Housewives of Salt Lake City has given us five wonderful seasons of amazing iconic moments, both for the gays and the straights.

But Jen Shaw, I mean, you know, it started with Jen Shaw the first three seasons. And, you know, she's she was an emotional journey for sure. So Jen Shaw is born in Hawaii. When she's just five years old, her family moves to Utah where as a Pacific Islander, she's one of the only non-white kids in school. So throughout her childhood, she's subjected to a lot of racism, a lot of ignorance,

but she does still manage to become student body president and varsity cheerleader. So she didn't let any of that hold her back. Shah veers away from her family's Mormon lifestyle and picks a secular college, the University of Utah, where she meets her future husband, Sharif Shah, who happens to be black and Muslim, a rarity in her community. Well, everything's a rarity in their community.

It's all Lake City, but yeah, it is nice it too, where people found each other. a rarity in her community. Well, everything's a rarity in their community. To be fair. But yeah, it is nice it too, where people found each other. Also, that man is Foyn. I was gonna say, Jareem Boat. Okay? I mean, not only is he good looking, but he's like a star football player, she was a cheerleader, so I mean, Faye, right? But then, at this point in their life,

they just have to get their degrees and go live a successful life, easy peasy. Well, they have a slight setback. It's a little pregnancy whoopsy, and they decide to get married and have the baby while they're still in college. Shaw's parents don't take this well at all. Rather than accept Sharif, a non-Mormon, into the family, they disowned their own daughter. Which, I mean, sad at first, but the family does eventually come around to his gorgeous smile and Sharif and Shaw are in love. It doesn't hurt that Sharif is expected to go on and have a fantastic football career. So they have everything going for them, really.

Yeah, and that whole family like just deciding to disown the the child. They had no problem using some of that money later, because she was supporting that whole family. So at this point in the story, it's still Team Shaw. Even though I know how it turns. You know what a sicko I am. That's how I am. I'll be on her side till the end. You're just reframing your entire view of Jen Shaw now.

You're like, wait, let's get our parents from Me Too. I'm totally on her side. I'm on her side. Hey, listen, you've got to put yourself in her shoes at the moment, all right? People in history weren't always bad until they turned. You got to wait for the turn. That's the fun.

So yeah, I mean, everything was going well for them, but then Sharif does injure his back, so he has to give up his athletic career. So there's a baby to feed. Compromises must be made. Shaw drops out of college to support Sharif while he gets his athletic career. So there's a baby to feed, compromises must be made. Shaw drops out of college to support Sharif while he gets his law degree. And she hustles any way she knows how. She's modeling, doing nanny gigs, secretarial work, like whatever she can do. Eventually, the couple's teamwork pays off and Sharif becomes an attorney. It

was a steady gig, but he is a civil litigator, which doesn't exactly pay well. It's not Manhattan attorney by any means. It's not real housewives territory. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know how excited I'd be to find out my lawyer that I was assigned was like a football player only because of the brain stuff, you know? They get slammed down on their heads a lot. Like pick another profession, you know?

That's dangerous. Yeah. Well, it also goes the other way. When you, like, hit your ride to, like, a future NFL star, and then they wind up just being a civil attorney, you're like, oh, okay. But, you know, throughout all this, Shaw's still, I'm still giving her points because she continues hustling for her man. She's dabbling in finance and marketing until 2006 when she lands a role at a telemarketing coaching business called Prosper Inc.

And she climbs the ladder at Prosper Inc, becoming director of business development before moving on to her next venture. So I mean, are any of those elements, I guess, especially since you know the outcome of this story, are any of those elements surprising to you in her background? It's kind of interesting. It's like the origin story for how this all went wrong, because we had actually had one of our listeners had once written to us or had come on to our show and said something to the fact that like they knew Jen Shaw 20 years ago. She was a customer at their bank and she was always this meek, very lovely person

who was very, very quiet. And she turns into someone who winds up being on The Real Housewives, as you'll discuss, who's not that at all. So I kind of feel like this must have been the turning point where she saw the matrix and was like, wait a second, there's a world of scamming available to me. So by 2011, she's moved on to become co vice president of another company that

sells business coaching programs called Thrive Learning. She works alongside a fellow named Stuart Smith and the two become very close business partners. Prior to Thrive, Smith worked in the bakery section at a Costco, and he also ran a landscape nursery. So, seems like a decent guy who strangely made a huge unexplained career leap. A gardener who bakes. I'm in. Is he single? Yeah, hey. You should know from the names of these companies, Prosper, Bull. Thrive, Bullshit.

Also, this whole thing, like, I sell coaching programs. That sounds a lot like all of these like, you know, I can teach you to become an influencer overnight. Yeah. Mm-hmm. You know, just sign up for my program. Anyway, we'll meet Smith again, but for now, back to Shaw and her family. Everyone's coming up in the world, including Shaw's husband, Sharif, who quits his litigator job in 2012 and gets hired as an assistant college football coach at the University of Utah, making a cool $150k a year. Not too shabby.

The happy married couple are living that solid middle-class lifestyle, raising two boys, one of whom ends up going to med school, but then trouble. Not exactly for Shaw, but for some of her former employers. In 2015, the Federal Trade Commission goes fishing for fraud within telemarketing coaching companies, and they suspect Thrive Learning is one of a slew of fraudulent organizations that sell fake curriculums and sessions to unsuspecting victims. And maybe even steal financial information. What is your fake curriculum in telemarketing?

Yeah, I'm so confused by it all. Pick up the phone, dial very quickly, ask if you can speak with the lady of the house. What kind of lies are they inserting in there? Now, Thrive, we have to say, doesn't admit to any wrongdoing, but in 2017, they do settle with the FTC for $27 million. That same year, the FTC charges 15 people from other similar companies, some of them go to prison. And a few of these folks have even worked with Shaw and her buddy Stuart Smith. It's a close call. Shaw even gets deposed in one of the cases and that company settles for

$16 million. But big fish like Shaw and Smith don't get caught in the FTC's net. So that's because they've left and started their own company called Mastery Pro Group. Oh, yes. Listen, that's exactly where I'm turning to. If I'm going to get some mastery, I'm going to turn to someone who worked in the bakery of Costco and landscaping and then take classes about how I can improve as a corporate presence. Well, especially if they just were the only ones who didn't go to prison, I'd be like, well, they, I mean, they're better than the other people. Like they learned better.

That's true. I mean, at least that's pretty decent on your resume, actually. We beat the feds. Yeah. What do you think a company named Mastery Pro would actually do? I'm going to say it's about teaching leadership in your position and how to effectively organize your company. I think it's always learning where the primary bedroom is in a home.

Well Ben, you were close, but instead of going after corporations and already established businesses, Master Pro Group purports to sell services to individuals who want to start their own business but don't know how. Spoiler, this is a total scam and the services are completely fake. So now Shaw has just witnessed what can happen to folks who run such scams. So should be a deterrent,

but instead Shaw thinks she can outsmart the feds by distancing herself from the company that she found. And she sets up her ventures in, wait for it, Kosovo. Oh, Kosovo. Whoa. Home of mastery. So she instructs her boy Stuart Smith to hide the origin of the company and to incorporate it in Wyoming.

So basically offshore, right? Shaw's aunt opens up a bank account for her niece to use for the business. She's just doing a nice thing for her niece and has no idea that this is sketchy. Also, she's never charged with any crimes for doing this. And eventually, Shaw and Smith set up a Master Pro Group headquarters in New York where Shaw will preside over a team of salespeople. And she goes all in on this business, spending most of her time in New York City away from her home in Utah. And being a football coach, her husband Sharif is away on business a lot as well. So the two experience some turbulence and resentments start to brew. But in 2018, things are humming along at Mastery Pro

until record scratch. The FTC deposes Shaw's business partner, Stuart Smith, as part of another fraud-phishing operation. Wow. Shaw, she's calm, cool-collected. She does not panic. She's been here before. Several of her previous employers have been in the hot seat. Wow. Shaw, she's calm, cool, collected. She does not panic. She's been here before.

Several of her previous employers have been in the hot seat. So she just texts Smith what he needs to tell the feds to stay out of trouble. Mostly stuff like, hey, we don't work together. Got it? On text. You've already been chased by the feds. You already escaped that and now you're texting somebody. Come on, man.

This is a shame because I thought she was smarter than this. Like I'm already losing hope. Well, look, I can't believe that she was texting Stewart all this information and just getting it out there. At least she wasn't dumb enough to actually showcase that they work together on TV. Am I right? Am I right, everyone? She's leaving a paper trail or at least a digital one. She also instructs her workers over to Telegram, an encrypted messaging app.

Okay, well there's some brains. Okay, we're back in the game, Jan Shaw, we're back in the game. Listen, nothing bad happens on Telegram, okay? Nothing. Exactly, yeah, right? Nothing. No rip-offs on Telegram. okay? Nothing. Exactly, yeah, right? Nothing. No rip-offs on Telegram.

Never not once. So another step the very unguilty Shaw takes is to not get paid by her own company, at least not directly. As the saying goes, no salary, no taxes. Instead, Smith pays for everything, including her New York City apartment. He's her own personal money laundering service. Wow.

As it turns out. So, Sha, she's living it up in New York City, but she's far from family and her marriage is struggling. So it might be time for a big life change. And it just so happens that Bravo is casting for their next Real Housewives franchise. So, I mean, knowing what we know about her, how strong of a candidate is she for this show? I mean, very strong. And I mean, there's nothing more hilarious than the idea that you're running, like, a high stakes... crime ring that could send you to years in jail,

and it's worth sacrificing that all, risking it all just so you could be famous on Bravo TV. Yeah. The Shaw Festival in Niagara-on-the-Lake presents Tons of Money, a hilarious British farce that will have you rolling in the aisles. A young man fakes his own death and impersonate his cousin to collect a huge inheritance. What could

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So it's the late 2010s, and Bravo TV is firing on all cylinders. They think Salt Lake City, which is sort of a mystery to most TV viewers, would make a fun backdrop for a new show. And as we've discussed, Jen Shaw is the perfect candidate. So they put out a call, and Jen Shaw happily pitches herself. Yes, she might live in New York City right now,

but she was raised in Utah. She's a self-made woman of color in predominantly white spaces. She's a self-made woman of color in predominantly white spaces. She's got the rags to riches story, a multi-million dollar house they can film in, add a touch of mystery, flamboyance, you got yourself a gig, girl. So in her audition tape, Shaw brags that she makes millions, adding, quote, I probably spend at least 50 grand a month. And then in a podcast interview, she later corrects herself saying that the 50k is just her monthly clothing budget.

Not that she has a budget per se. It's also not clear how she makes millions, but it's probably fine. I'm sure it's just some hard work. By the bootstraps, just getting out there and doing the damn thing. Yeah, good investing. Good investing strategies. Good investing. So, in the audition tape, her own husband, Sharif, warns producers,

I'm telling you boys, she's two types of crazy. Mm. Unfortunately, that is just what the producers are looking for, and she is cast for the show. She is hoping that the show will be a great opportunity and a good excuse to return to Utah where she can work on her marriage. The rest of the cast is comprised of rich and glamorous

Utah beauties, such as Heather Gay, a lapsed Mormon and everyone's best friend, Lisa Barlow, a chic marketing whiz and tequila magnate, Whitney Rose, who tells it like it is. We also have Meredith Marks, who upon first glance might just be Lisa Barlow from a different angle. And then we have Mary Cosby, the lady who married her own grandfather. Mm-hmm.

Step-grandfather, but yeah. Yeah, for the record, it's her grandmother's second husband. Yeah. The fourth most scandalous thing on this list here. It's like, oh, and then her, yeah, she has a cult, married her grandmother's husband. OK, yeah, going on. Yeah.

So the show airs November 11, 2020, and it's a hit. The cast is as wackadoo as anyone could have hoped for. Here's a clip that I saw that I am still processing. It's with Mary Cosby, Whitney Rose, and Rose's children. I'm so tired. One of the members in our church, like, one of their daughter, like, had a crash. When?

Today, like Like last night. And she was ejected from the sun roof and fell down into a neighborhood. 30 feet dropped off the freeway. Is she still alive? I'm excited to be here.

I'm excited to be here. Wear your seatbelt. Mary Cosby is a classic. Wear your seatbelt. So, yeah, Shaw bursts onto the scene as the outspoken housewife who oozes excess and gives no Fs. Now, maybe to cover for her lack of credentials, Shaw has a lot of catchphrases on the show, the most important one being Shawmazing. and gives no Fs. Now, maybe to cover for her lack of credentials, Shaw has a lot of catchphrases on the show, the most important one being Shawmazing. She wears open toe heels in the snow,

tastefully paired with Versace purses, of course. And she and her family share a five bed, eight bath, seven million dollar plus palatial home in upscale Park City, Utah, where a flower bed spells out the words, Shah Chalet in hot pink petals. And crucially, there is no explanation as to how the Shas can afford to live like this. But we'll get there. Shah also employs a fleet of stylists and assistants who not only make her look Shahmazing, but also help her stage dress rehearsals for parties,

clapping for Shaw as she models her outfits. But there is one member of the Shaw Squad, yes, she calls them that, who has outsized importance. In episode one, Stuart Smith, who's identified as Shaw's personal and business assistant, is introduced. We remember him. She really likes the demeanor. who's identified as Shaw's personal and business assistant is introduced. We remember him.

She really likes a demeanum. I have a memory of her feeding him a banana, and she calls him her monkey, right? Oh, she does? Did that happen, Ronnie? Like, she fed him a banana? Sounds like it. In his first appearance, Smith drives Shaw to a Botox appointment in Shaw's Porsche and runs around after her with a baggie full of beef jerky.

Which, that sounds amazing. If you had an assistant, what would always be in your baggie? M&Ms. Peanut M&Ms. Every time. That sounds good. It's all I need. Tate's cookies.

Occasionally some Starbursts if I'm feeling healthy and need fruit. Just a little bit of fruit. Love that. A cold brew. Just a cold brew. Ready for me. All times. So on the show, Stuart Smith appears to be Shaw's loyal bag man, and she appears to be

a very important person. But again, exactly how is Shaw actually financing her fabulous lifestyle? She's spending ill-gotten gains from her telemarketing business, is how she's doing it, but the audience couldn't know that. They're focused on the messy character Shaw seems to be. Now, for what it's worth, the Shaw squad seems to genuinely hate being there. Her former designer later admits that working for Shaw is like babysitting a 48-year-old. Throughout the entire first season of Housewives, the producers are getting

a lot of juicy drama in the form of screaming fights and nasty tantrums. So let's take a quick look at Jen's highlight reel. Who the f*** says that s***? That's like looking at a little baby with cancer and saying, oh, you smell like cancer. And Whitney, roll your motherfucking eyes and look over there one more time, I'll drown you again. Mary is fucking crazy. Shut the fuck up about Mary.

Go stop those. Shut up about Mary. I don't give a fuck. Do you understand? I am. Where? That's her son running away horrified by the way. Yes. That's her son. away horrified by the way. No. Yes.

No. That's her son. That's at Sheree's birthday party with all of Sheree's family and friends. Yeah. Yeah, that's the Topgolf for the famous Topgolf episode. In that case, yeah.

Yeah. So by the end of the first season, viewers start to openly wonder, besides being nuts, what does this lady do for a living? And they're not alone. During the season one reunion, messy girl, Andy Cohen, tries to get Shaw to admit where her money actually comes from on camera.

He asks, why does she need full assistance besides, you know, clapping for her? Shaw's non-response, they all have different roles at all of the important companies that she runs. And she is asked to explain what those companies do. Quote, my background is in direct response marketing for about 20 years. So our company does advertising. We have a platform that helps people acquire customers. So when you're shopping online or on the internet and something pops, we have the algorithm behind why you're getting served that ad. Yeah, like why? It's clear to me. Very clear to me. Business synergies, etc. Yeah.

But neither the cast members nor the viewing audience is satisfied with Shaw's explanation. So in an Access Hollywood interview, Shaw, she gives it another go. Quote, So in an Access Hollywood interview, Shaw, she gives it another go, quote, I have three different marketing companies and we do lead generation, data monetization, customer acquisition. The best way to describe it is I'm the Wizard of Oz. I'm the one behind the curtain that no one knows exists, but I'm the one making everything happen. Oh, God. You have to think about the words coming out of your mouth when you're a criminal. And who wants to be the Wizard of Oz? He was a big fraud.

Hello, did you see the end of that movie? Hello, spoiler alert, bad dude. This really reminds me of when people like when criminals go on to Wheel of Fortune and then are surprised when they get arrested. It's like you you're on the run. Why are you on TV right now? How could she go on Extra? Maybe this is just a statement about Extra.

Maybe she just believes no one watches Extra and so she can just say these things. But how could you admit that you are the Wizard of Oz when you are literally like the Wizard of Oz in a fraud ring? How could you do that? Yeah, I mean, I think also on top of that, especially with Fame, like she's a problematic character.

They might be seeing the writing on the wall, but she seems to have convinced enough people or at least enough people making the show that her story is solid and worth risking it because she does get signed on to do more seasons. And I, you know, if like, if her lies were that transparent, you know, I think other people also are a little culpable in letting her continue. Well, they love that.

Yeah, exactly. They love that. They love this stuff. For sure. Yeah, they love this stuff. They're going to keep hiring you. I mean, if anything, that gives them more reason to hire her. Uh-huh.

So, I mean, it was win-win for all of them at the moment. She loves attention. They love money. But as we're alluding to everybody, if you're going to do crimes, don't go on TV. Or if you're gonna go on TV, don't commit crimes. Either way. Keep them separated. Yeah, or do it better. Be a role model. Learn how to commit crimes and get away with it. We need a better hero. Yeah, there we go. So in March of 2021, for the middle of season two,

the cast of Salt Lake City films their departure scene for a big ski trip in Vail, Colorado. And they're outside the Beauty Lab, a clinic owned by one of the other castmates, Heather Gay. And Shaw, decked out in leopard print and ready to have some fun in a Bavarian-themed fortress, receives a mysterious phone call. The mood shifts. Let's take a quick look at what happens.

Hi, baby. OK. I have some bad news. I need to go. I just got a phone call, and Sharif Sr. has internal bleeding. Wait, wait. No, I have to go?

Yeah. There it is. Internal bleeding. Internal bleeding, fleeing the scene. What you're not seeing in that clip is that she gets the call that the feds are on their way so she's going to motor out of there, but because she tells everyone that there's internal bleeding, Heather Gay kind of corners her and is like, oh, my God, is everything okay? Do you need me to come? Are you sure? Is everything okay?

And Jen Shaw has this look on her face, like, please get out of my face. I need to get out of here as soon as possible. I'm about to be arrested on camera. And Heather's like, how about, should I make you a casserole? Do you need me to take care of the kids? And she's just like, she's like, uh-uh, no, I'm fine. I'm fine, I'm fine. I just gotta go. I just gotta go.

She did need to get out of there, because it was within 15 minutes that the rest of the cast hears helicopters coming. They see Homeland Security and the NYPD arrive on the scene. And of course, this is all being filmed and will later appear on Bravo. The van, full of clueless housewives, is swarmed by cops. But since this is Trashy Reality TV, a couple of them guess these people might be strippers? LAUGHS

What is that concern? Yes, they thought they were strippers. I forgot that. LAUGHS But they're clearly not strippers. They're real law enforcement officers, and the housewives are just trying to piece this all together. Let's take a look. Should I just call Jen and tell her that they just came here?

I don't think you should. I don't think you should. No. You guys, what if she's on the run? Like, get her head start. Oh my god. I would want her to call me. NYPD, please swap. Please not for showing up looking for Jen Shaw. I don't think she is in the hospital, but thanks, love.

Wait, you think, call Sharif. You think she got a tip-off call that this was happening and left? All right, yeah. Yeah, that's what happened. She got a tip-off call. I mean, I'm so jealous of these people who live in a place where their cops show up

and they think they might be strippers. That is not what I think when my cops show up. Same. There's so much in that clip that I am so confused about. And our love, I love that she was like, give her a head start. I was like, that's a real writer type of friend. That's a writer. Yeah.

And she stuck with her right until the end. Yeah. Really, until that woman was in jail. And then she felt safe, I guess, to start mad mouthing her. But I mean, she was with her right until the end. Yeah. Really, until that woman was in jail. And then she felt safe, I guess, to start mad mouthing her. But I mean, she was with her right up until the very end, that one. But yeah, also like the fact, could you imagine also living a life where your friend just says,

my husband has internal bleeding. I have an emergency at the hospital. I have to go. And 15 minutes later, you're swarmed by feds and police officers, and you can't imagine that the two are not related, that these two wildly dramatic events happen to Jen Shaw independently. Yeah.

The best part is when they're sitting there, and they're just idly chatting, and you see they're just having chit chat about who knows what. And in the background, in the windows, you start to see FBI, and you start to see Homeland Security and they're just like nattering away and we all know what's happening. But like that there's like these subtle like clues in the background windows. It is truly like one of the it was one of the most compelling scenes that Bravo has ever aired.

Crazy. So of course they get all the answers pretty quickly through social media. They find out that Shaw's in big trouble. So is Stuart Smith, her dating assistant. They're being charged with fraud. She could get 30 years in prison. Again, they're still in a van on their way to a party house. Cast member Whitney Rose seems to understand exactly what is going on. She is apparently the resident expert on illegal business and she'll explain it to the audience. Let's watch a clip where she breaks down the fraud charges. So when you buy data, you can actually select what demographic you want.

Yes. But they would select vulnerable people. People who have disabilities, people who are elderly. Oh, yeah. Like on fixed income. Who maybe aren't in the best state of mind, like don don't have the best decision-making because they're old, loan in the house, vulnerable. They buy that data and sell to them fake, fake s***.

Get them on a subscription, get their credit card charged every month, and they can't get off of it. Whitney's taking notes. Yeah. So what do you do? She's like, God, here's where they made missteps. Okay, let me just write that down. Hearing her say vulnerable so many times is also really special. Vulnerable.

Vulnerable. Vulnerable. Vulnerable. Vulnerable. Vulnerable. Vulnerable. vulnerable, vulnerable, vulnerable, vulnerable. Behind the closed doors of government offices and military compounds, there are hidden stories and buried secrets from the darkest corners of history. From covert experiments pushing the boundaries of science,

to operations so secretive they were barely whispered about. Each week, on redacted, declassified mysteries, we pull back the curtain on these hidden histories, 100% true and verifiable stories that expose the shadowy underbelly of power. Consider Operation Paperclip, where former Nazi scientists were brought to America after World War II, not as prisoners,

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the host of Wondery's podcast Against the Odds. In each episode, we take you to the edge of some of the most incredible adventure and survival stories in history. In our next season, it's 1980, and in the Pacific Northwest, the long dormant volcano Mount St. Helens is showing signs of life.

Scientists warn that a big eruption is coming, but a restricted zone around the mountain is limited by politics. On May 18th, hikers, loggers, reporters, and researchers are caught in the blast zone as the volcano erupts. They find themselves pummeled by a deadly combination of scorching heat, smothering ash, and massive mudslides. The survivors have to find their way to safety before they succumb to their injuries.

Or face another eruption. Follow against the odds on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. Binge the entire season ad-free right now only on Wondery Plus. Start your free trial in the Wondery app, Apple podcasts or Spotify today. Now for Bravo, this scene obviously makes for great television. But meanwhile, off camera in real life, Shaw doesn't get very far after she leaves

the set of The Housewives. The cops ping her location and arrest her on the side of the road. And she's driven to a federal building and brought into a break room. She's handcuffed to a chair, must be terrified, mortified. And before being questioned for over an hour, Shaw signs a form waiving her right to an attorney. Obviously, she's not thinking straight. Is it because her husband really is in the hospital? Or is it because, I don't know, her contacts are dry and she can't read the documents that she's signing?

Yeah, that's the contacts are dry. Later, she says it's both. Yup. She tried to get out of it saying they couldn't arrest her because they wouldn't give her saline solution. And so that made this fraudulent arrest. I mean, that woman, she tried it. She tried it.

You have to. You gotta go for it. Yeah, Jen Shaw tells the feds, there's been a mistake. She's done nothing wrong. And to prove it, she'll agree to a trial, no plea deal. Strange choice. Yeah.

You're going to federal court. This is not criminal court. This is federal court. They line their ducks up before they take you down. I think she kept thinking that Stuart wasn't going to turn. She just really thought she was, she does, she did scare people. So they would do anything to stay on her good side. And I think she had everybody so scared that she thought that little wuss is never gonna turn on me because he knows I'll ruin his life.

I'll go after his family, all of this other stuff. Like a mob movie. Well, I think she thought he wasn't gonna flip on her, but also she could flip on him and throw him under the bus. Yeah, she always had that. Because he must've been doing all the bad stuff, right? Without her knowledge.

Right. Which is exactly what her lawyers claimed, you know? Or it was her employees. Either way, she had nothing to do with it. But that was gonna be hard to prove because, well, let's play a clip that Ben might remember. I feed you while you work. While you make me money, I feed you. We're adding more people and I just had to get second pass out.

That's good. It's a good day. Okay, make money, eat your banana. Maybe I added in the monkey part. We make so much stuff up on our own show to just improvise the scenes that we end up not really real remembering what was real. I know, but I do remember a banana. real, remembering what was real. I know, but I do remember banana. But that way you are right. So on April 2 2021, the judge presiding over Shaw's case calls her bluff and sets her bail at

$1 million, which she'll owe in its entirety if she flees. And to secure her bond and leave jail, she'll need $250,000 in cash or property. But finding that kind of money is going to be a challenge because unlike Smith, who uses his house to secure his bond, Shaw doesn't own her home. That's right, the lavish mansion in the series is a rental. Her Porsche? It's leased.

Outside of the alleged telemarketing scams, Shaw's only income is from the Housewives show. So, Andy, can I get a cash advance? Yeah, she ended up getting it from her mom. She took her mom's retirement account to do it. And there's a scene with her and her mom and her mom's crying and she's like, okay, Jen, I mean, I'll do anything for you. And she's like, you know, I'm innocent, mom. So just, you know, thank you so much, but you know I'm innocent, just pay the money. And so, you know, at least she didn't draw a line.

I mean, she screwed over a lot of elderly people, but at least she screwed over her own mom too. So it was fair. Yeah, her mom was not a part of her scheme at all. She was never charged with any crimes or anything. She was just another one of the people that Jen took advantage of. Yeah, it was fair.

Yeah, the trial is then set for October of 2021. Now COVID protocols keep delaying it. But that just gives Shaw more time to be on Housewives and to come up with ways to defend herself. Because yes, she is still on the show while awaiting her trial, everyone. Oh, yeah. Yeah. One way her lawyers think they can get a dismissal is by claiming that Shaw didn't mean to waive her Miranda rights and not have her lawyer present during interrogation because, you know, because of the blurry context.

But that motion is quickly denied. By the time season two of Salt Lake City even airs, people have read in the news that Jen Shaw's been arrested and charged with fraud. So she works her storyline into the opening tagline. Do you remember what it was? I don't. What was it? Well, we have a clip.

The only thing I'm guilty of is being Shaw-mazing. Shaw-mazing. Shaw-mazing. Right. Shaw-mazing. Shaw-mazing. Shaw-mazing. Right. Shaw-mazing. Amazing. Of course. Oh, my God.

Shaw not only agrees to have meetings with her lawyer filmed for television, she continues to discuss her legal situation on camera until the moment she leaves the show. Now, we at The Big Flop do not recommend having your legal battles be the subject of reality TV, but in this case, it might be Shaw's only way of making a legitimate income when she needs the money. So let's watch a clip from season two, episode 11.

Shaw What I have been accused of is absolutely the complete opposite of anything I would ever do in my life. If I have any fault, it is because I am too giving and I help too many people. Yeah. Such a giver, you guys. It's a microids of my fault, I'm perfect, I'm sorry.

She just wants to help people start businesses. Throw me in jail, Throw me in perfection jail. Yeah, I'm just trying to help you become a boss, babe. Just like me. Yeah. But it's now very hard to make the argument that she's innocent of fraud. Not only are there tons of clips showing her contradicting herself, but the investigation into Shaw's Shawshady businesses have been going on for years.

The feds even have a witness who's brought them recordings of Smith explaining how the scams all work. And then there's the physical evidence. After the feds raid her house, they find over a hundred luxury items like Chanel couture and Louis Vuitton handbags. Incredibly, most of them are fake. T. Soccer. So we've gotten some hints as to what Jen, Sean, Stuart, Smith might be doing, but as the case against them is brought, more details emerge.

The type of scheme Shaw and Smith might be running, the one Whitney Rose talked about in the van, is called Biz-Op. And it is in fact a coaching scheme, just like the type of Thrive Learning Shaw's previous employer was accused of running. Basically, vulnerable people who want to start a business are identified through online activities, like by clicking the shady passive income ads on websites or responding to strangers on LinkedIn. Now these folks, nicknamed leads,

are then called up by telemarketers and sold a bunch of services to make their work from home dreams come true. Services like marketing advice, web design, seminars, or even help with business credit applications. At best, the telemarketers collect payments and then ghost the would-be business owners without ever offering them the help they wanted. At worst, the biz ops continued to sell the victims personal information after they ghosted them. Shaw went for the worst option. Of course. Yeah, after bleeding tens of thousands of dollars

from retirees who wanted to understand the internet better, she then sold these leads to larger fraud rings, who kept pestering these people until they were completely out of money. All this so Shaw could buy gaudy ski wear and fake handbags. Even though Shaw has been charged, they keep making seasons with her. So in November of 2021, during season 3 filming, Shaw gets the shocker of a lifetime. Smith, her partner in crime, changes his plea to guilty. He admits to conspiracy to commit wire fraud, money laundering, and obstruction of justice. And he is in a lot of trouble because in addition to committing a bunch of crimes,

he also spent a few months lying, which is perjury, in a separate crime. So he could get up to 70 years in prison. Oof. Now, you've watched enough TV crime dramas, I'm sure. What can he do to help himself? He could turn on Jen Shaw. Ding, ding, ding. Yes, Smith agrees to testify against Shaw. So his sentence will now come after Shaw's trial.

On the show, Shaw is confronted by her bestie Heather Gay, who wants to know how Shaw feels about Stuart flipping on her. Also, Meredith Marks is there to fill out the shot, I guess. Let's take a look. Stuart's a piece of f**king s**t. And you know what? He can the oh I'm little Stuart Smith no bitch you're an evil mother and you played me I would not be in this thing at all if it wasn't for Stuart Stuart played me I wouldn't be in this thing at all oh I thought you weren't in anything I thought you weren't doing anything what are you talking? Now you're in a huge crime ring that you only were in because Stewie made you do it?

Oh, poor Jen. So easy to manipulate. And that was by the way, when she was in New York, wasn't that when she was getting ready for sentencing, Ben? When they all went to New York or when those three went to New York and Meredith and Heather went to support her. I mean, that's like right when she was about to go down down.

Yeah, and she's still talking like this, like girl. Yeah, right after the very, very, very end, like the night before, she was denying on camera. It was crazy. Bethany Frankel once famously said on Real Housewives of New York, you can't be smart and stupid at the same time. And that's what Jen Shaw is trying to do.

She's trying to be smart and stupid. Oh, I didn't realize this would happen. And yet she's also proclaiming that she's the smartest person in the room. So, you know, you're either the Wizard of Oz on Extra TV, or you're incredibly, incredibly naive, and we all know which one she is. Yeah. Now, it's no secret that the Housewife seasons

are filmed long in advance and heavily edited. So these conversations aren't necessarily relevant to the court case as it unfolds. But there is a documentary that airs on Hulu in December of 2021 in the middle of the legal battle that might cause some problems for Shaw's defense. It's called The Housewife and the Shaw Shocker. I don't know. Is there a better nameer. So, I don't know. Is there a better name for the special? Yeah, what was Erica's called? The Housewife and the Hustler, right?

The Housewife and the Hustler was Erica and Tom's and then they made one for Jen. They kind of ran out of puns there. They were like, the housewife and the shock and the shock is the shock, shock, shock, shocker. We'll go with that. Yeah. Well, the shaka is a 45-minute oral history of the situation, mostly clips of the show

and folks who've been in Shaw's orbit with opinions on the scandal like Shaw's aunt. She files to have her case dismissed on the basis that the Hulu documentary violates her right to a fair trial. Shaw's legal team argues that there won't be an untainted jury pool with a documentary available for anyone to watch ahead of the trial. Hun, it's Hulu. I don't know. I think she's maybe overstating her importance. It's not like this. This is not the OJ trial.

OK, this was we're not breaking away from any playoff games to watch Jen Shaw walk into a courthouse. OK, like, yeah, still a lot of people have no idea who she is. Yeah. Yeah, and you gotta love somebody going down for screwing over old people, old defenseless old people, you know, crying about fairness. Like, shut up. Just shut up. And the judge agrees because they deny the request.

So the walls truly start closing in. Shaw's been publicly claiming she's been innocent for so long, she might even believe it. But she's out of money, out of lawyers, out of options. After the motion to dismiss the case per the Hulu documentary is denied, two of her lawyers peace out. Meanwhile, Shah's new trial date of July 2022 is fast approaching. So one week before her trial is scheduled to begin, Shaw pleads guilty to conspiracy to commit wire fraud. Now, right around this time, the Season 3 reunion is around the corner and fans

cannot wait to hear what she has to say about all this. But unfortunately, she won't be there. On Instagram, Shaw states that Bravo did not invite her and then did, but only if she'd be willing to discuss her legal case. But taking her remaining lawyer's excellent advice, she declines. Do you think committing fraud helps or hurts your reality TV career?

I think it helps. It helps, unfortunately. She'll be hired the second she's out of there. She'll be brought back. If that show's still on, which it probably will be, she will be brought back the second that she's gone. Yeah, I agree. At the 2022 BravoCon, Andy Cohen hints that Jen Shah will not be returning for a fourth season. Quote, once we wrapped, she pled guilty. I think that was kind of, unfortunately, the end of, you know, the engagement there. After Cohen's statement, Shaw briefly lashes

out on social media, quote, you will not take my voice. I have a lot to say, lies to correct and people to put in their place. Hashtag coming soon. Hashtag Bravo TV. Hashtag RHSLC. Hashtag equality. equality, hashtag POC. She also daringly borrows a phrase from activist Malala, quote, I raise up my voice not so that I can shout, but so that those without a voice can be heard. We cannot all succeed when half of us are held back. I raise up my voice not so that I can shout,

but so that I can get your social security number and your date of birth. Give it to me. Yeah. So, on January 6, 2023, Shaw arrives for her sentencing in New York City. And so do a lot of fans and onlookers. In fact, the courtroom is at full capacity. In exchange for pleading guilty to conspiracy, the money laundering

charges are dropped. The judge also softens the blow regarding prison time. Prosecutors want to send would-be scammers a message and to throw the book at Shaw with a 10-year sentence. The judge gives her only six and a half years. Otherwise, there's very little leniency. Shaw must pay $6.5 million in forfeiture and $9.5 million in restitution to victims. Wow, but she didn't have that, right? But she didn't have that. Yeah, where does that come from? Where are they going to get that money? Right, that's the question. She says she vows to repay the victims, but how? Because without the BizOp scam, she's limited to what she can make from television and general publicity, like her free Jen Shaw

campaign merch. I'm sure that did well. Yeah. Oh, my God. Broke the internet with that one. Uh-huh. Before surrendering to Texas' Bryan Federal Prison Camp in February 2023, Shaw gets her husband's and two son's names tattooed on her arm. Whatever every son wants his mom to get a prison tat. I mean, as he's trying to go forward to medical school, yeah. Well let's do a little, where are they now? So Jen Shaw promised to turn over a new leaf. And you know what?

It seems like she has been doing that. She seems to really be working on herself. In prison, she started a fitness and cosmetology class, a real curriculum, real coaching. Yes. Who wants to learn their makeup from Jen Shaw? Have you seen her makeup? Shady boots.

Who's going to that class? I don't know. Her good behavior has led to two sentence reductions. So she'll get out in November of 2026, just around the corner. You know, she also did a Real Housewives play in prison. She like directed a Real Housewives play. She got all the inmates to do one. Really?

Isn't that funny? So she's also a director now, you guys. It's on her resume. She's also made friends in prison. One of them is notorious scammer and big flop alum Elizabeth Holmes. Yes. Yeah. Future Real Housewife?

Well, maybe. But we are hoping that their friendship will blossom into something constructive because that pairing could literally destroy entire economies. Yeah, no kidding. Put those two together. Those two will come up with a business together. Watch. Watch.

Stuart Smith, he's still in prison, but he only received a nine month sentence, which began in January of 2025. So if he gets out on schedule, that gives him over a year's head start to get to safety before a very fit Jen Shaw comes after him. I was going to say, get the gang back together. You get Jen and Elizabeth and Stuart and they're going to hatch the big one.

This is just, listen, I've seen the usual suspects, a little stint in jail that just sets you up for the big stint, the big heists. As you both know, here on The Big Flop, we try to be positive people and end on a high. So are there any silver linings that came about from Jen Shaw? Yes, which is that, um, Jen Shaw going off to prison opened the door for the Real Housewives to bring in Monica, which gave us one of our greatest seasons ever. And then Monica begat our latest season of season five,

which was even better. So in many ways, Jen Shaw cleared the way for better TV for us. And that's the only silver lining I can really think. Oh, and that she's out of the general public. Well, yeah. Well, hopefully she taught some elderly people to stop doing that, you know?

Stop trying to start businesses from people they find on, you know, a message from LinkedIn or whatever. Yeah, yeah. I will say, maybe, maybe she will be rehabilitated, and if she does get put back on the show and starts making that Bravo money again, hopefully some of the victims will get their restitution. There you go.

That is nice silver lining. There we go. Well, now that you both know about Jen Shaw's history of scamming, would you consider this a baby flop, a big flop or a mega flop? Well, it's a mega flop, mega flop to me. This scam was so huge. I don't think that people really realized that this was like,

I mean, this was across state lines, a web of people. I mean, lots of resources went into this. This is a multimillion dollar complicated scheme. This was not just some, some thing that she was behind on bills for. This was a really, really, really big deal. So big mega flop for me. And you know, also mega flop as far as scamming goes, because you flopped that business really hard. I mean, texting all your criminal activity and just, she just went about it poorly. She got telegrammed too late.

So I just say as far as criminal, you know, as far as criminal activity, that was a big flop. I could at least be a fan if you were good at the stealing, you know? But. You know, credit where credit's due, that's right. Yeah. Well, thanks to our Shamazing guest,

Ben Mandelker and Ronnie Karam for joining us here on The Big Flop. And of course, thanks to all of you for listening and watching. If you're enjoying the show, please leave us a rating or review or a subscribe and we'll be back next week with another flop. I mean, sure, technically what these young entrepreneurs were doing was copyright infringement, but they made music so much more accessible. That's right, we're talking about the OG mover and shaker of the music sharing world,

Napster. Bye. Bye. Bye. If you like The Big Flop, you can listen early and ad free on Wondery Plus. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple podcasts. Prime members can listen ad free on Amazon Music. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short survey at wondery.com slash survey.

The Big Flop is a production of Wondery and At Will Media, hosted by Misha Brown, produced by Sequoia Thomas, Harry Huggins, and Tina Turner, written by Anna Rubinova and Luke Burns, engineered by Zach Rapone, with support from Andrew Holzberger. The video podcast is engineered by Zach Rapone, with support from Andrew Holtzberger. The video podcast is edited by Olivia Vessel. Managing producer is Molly Getman. Executive producers are Kate Walsh and Will Mulnati for At Will Media.

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They didn't have to take him from me. Between 1945 and the early 1970s, families ship their pregnant teenage daughters to maternity homes and force them to secretly place their babies for adoption. In hidden corners across America, it's still happening. My parents had me locked up in the godparent home against my will. They worked with them to manipulate me and to steal my son away from me. The godparent home is the brainchild of controversial preacher Jerry Falwell, the father of the modern evangelical right and the founder of Liberty University, where powerful men, emboldened

by their faith, determine who gets to be a parent and who must give their child away. Follow Liberty Lost on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts.