The Big Flop - Olestra: The Crappiest Flop of All with Kevin James Thornton | 38

Episode Date: June 3, 2024

After 30 years of development, Procter & Gamble rolled out a new, calorie-free oil substitute with the luxurious name, Olestra. This “miracle food” was supposed to revolutionize junk food and allow snackers to eat all the chips and crackers they could cram down their gullets without gaining any weight. Unfortunately for Procter & Gamble, Olestra did not help them meet their bottom line. Did customers have trouble swallowing this new and innovative product? Or did they just not like having "anal leakage"?!Kevin James Thornton (American Queer, This Ends in Paris) joins Misha to share his gut reactions on Olestra's fallout.Follow The Big Flop on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to The Big Flop early and ad-free on Wondery+. Join Wondery+ in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Wondery Plus subscribers can listen to The Big Flop early and ad free. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple podcasts. Grand Junction, Colorado is a quaint mountain city with only a few thousand residents. An idyllic American locale, any picture taken of the place looks like a postcard. It also happens to be one of Frito Lay's outposts, and now it's going to be a test market for Procter & Gamble's newest product, Olestra, a fake fat that might help snackers lose weight. It has zero calories.

It's a miracle food. It could transform the health of people across America. And at least one person in Grand Junction is happy to be part of the craze. Barbara loves snacks. She prepares her favorite comfort dinner, a sandwich and a full plate of crispy, salty potato chips. She goes to bed satisfied and gleeful, having discovered a possibly healthier way

to enjoy her favorite treat. But the morning isn't fun at all. Barbara wakes up to searing stomach pain, and she spends the next few hours battling violent diarrhea. Barbara can hardly believe something she can buy at the grocery store could do that to her body. Almost more remarkable is that there is a warning

in plain sight. Right on the chip bag itself, there's a label that says Olestra can cause cramping and loose stools. But despite being upfront about their product's unintended side effects, Procter and Gamble is about to find out that as far as PR nightmares go, a food that makes you crap yourself is a biggie. It's giving health-conscious Americans smart new choices in snacking. The sales are tremendous, you just can't keep them in stock. A luster may cause abdominal cramping and loose stools.

This pain was so sharp that I would say it was almost like the beginning of a labor. In 2002, Frito-Lay actually shut down the manufacturing plant. From Wondering and at Will Media, this is The Big Flop, where we chronicle the greatest flubs, fails, and blunders of all time. I'm your host, Misha Brown, social media superstar and the butt of every joke at Don't Cross a Gay Man. And today, we're talking about Olestra, one of the crappiest flops of all time. ["Don't Cross a Gay Man"]

On our show today, I am so excited, we have the fabulous comedian, Kevin James Thornton. Welcome to the show. Hey, thanks so much for having me. I can't wait to talk about Alestra. Same. So, I guess before we get into the story of Alestra, let's chat. Okay. Like, have you ever tried, like, a miracle food, something that changed your life?

If by miracle food, you mean like all of the fat-free options of the 90s, that's all my mom bought. Everything in our house was fat-free. That was the era. There were these like sugar-free cookies called snack wells that were delicious, honestly. But somehow they had no sugar in them. All right. Now, this is probably the most important question, but I need to ask. Are you okay with poop jokes? It's really my favorite. Any time I can take it to the lowest level possible, that's where I'll go. So, yes, I'm all in. There'll be a lot of them today.

I can't wait. All right, well, let's begin. In 1968, scientists are working hard in a lab in Cincinnati. And this lab belongs to Procter and Gamble, or PNG, a huge multinational conglomerate known for household goods like Crest toothpaste, Thai detergent, Love's diapers. And on this day, P&G's best scientists are cooking up something delicious.

New fats. Their chief goal is to make a more digestible molecule for premature infants who are extremely sensitive to everything. But these P&G food scientists end up discovering something even better. A zero-calorie fat substitute that tastes as good as oil. Cha-ching! Wow! So it started out as a mission of goodness in the 60s.

So, this new molecule they've created is called sucrose polyester, and it's basically sugar wrapped in fatty acids. As they're developing it, they hit a point where they've attached so many fatty acids that the molecule is no longer digestible by the human body. It has the word polyester in it. Yeah. That's probably a sign right there that it shouldn't be eaten. Yeah.

Well, for P and G, that turns out to be a great thing. This new substance offers the same nutritional benefits as hay, that is, none, but it acts like fat. So you can fry things in it, yet your body won't absorb it. So how awesome would it be to be able to eat all of the greasy fried foods we love and want and never gain any weight? It's amazing. I was in college when we all heard of this fat free chip because that's

what everyone was consumed with. I was there. I can't wait to tell you about it. So cutting calories while keeping the flavor is like the El Dorado for companies like P&G. Cost, no object. They spend $200 million on research and development. But the years keep passing by and still no miracle. Finally, 15 years after the first discovery, the eggheads in the lab think they've got it. P&G dubs their chemical, olestra. But there are some hiccups with the new compound, particularly this one annoying flaw, we'll call it. An internal study showed that when test subjects eat it, 3 to 9% of subjects report an oleaginous exudate

appearing on their underwear. Any idea what that means? Well, I've already told you I have first-hand knowledge, so yes. Well, to some of our younger listeners, maybe somebody who's been full fat coke all the way, this is what they call anal leakage. Let's be honest. What side effects would you put up with to be able to eat anything you wanted?

Well, apparently I'll put up with anal leakage, because... because I did. But they have named it something slightly different. There's probably different ways to say anal leakage that are more palatable. Yeah, I think so. Well, by the way, in this episode, we'll mostly be calling this substance Olestra, but P&G

does have another public-facing name they thought would sound better to the fat-loving public. Olene. I remember there was a girl in college who loved the Olestra chips, and we called her Olestra Laura. Olestra Laura, if you're listening. We love you. So, do you have any better ideas of what it could have been called? JARED The anal leakage or the Olestra?

LESTER LAWRENCE The Olestra. JARED I feel like Olestra could be a replacement for anal leakage. You could be like, eating these chips will result in Olestra. It sounds festive. Olestra! Yeah, just having a little bit of olestra today. Yeah, it does sound a lot more fun. Well, unfortunately, the leakage isn't the only problem. Another issue is there's no simple way to test olestra for safety. Normally, researchers feed new chemicals to rats to see what happens, but

rats can't ingest the amount of olestra that was needed to effectively test the product. P&G still went through with testing the rats, but half the male rats die before the study ends, so the results aren't very useful. Wow. Did they die from the olestra? No. Okay. Did they just die the olestra? No. Or are they... Okay. Or did they just die of old age? Yeah. But if you're in charge of Procter & Gamble right now,

like, do you shut it down at this point? Yeah. It sounds disastrous. Well, in addition to killing the rats, it seems that olestra prevents fat-soluble vitamins and nutrients from being absorbed by the intestine. Important ones, like the cancer-preventing ones. But P&G is still licking their chops because analysts estimate Olestra could earn them as much as $3 billion. That's with a B.

Wow. That's a lot of money to be made. That's a lot of coins. Sure is. So as with any new food additive, P&G's last hurdle is to get Olestra cleared with the FDA. Enter the Food Police, aka the Center for Science in the Public Interest, or CSPI for short. Any chance you're familiar with this organization?

I've never heard of that. Well, you've definitely seen their work. These guys are a consumer advocacy group that fights to spread nutritional knowledge to the public. So if you've ever wondered who's responsible for the ingredient labels you see on any packaged food, that's the CSPI.

Also stuff like the menu calorie counters at chain food restaurants and food courts, that's them. Oh. So they're doing important work. Yeah. There are two arguments to it that it goes against, like, our body positivity movement or, and then there's the other side of it, that it's just giving people the knowledge of what they're putting into their bodies.

Yeah. But do you pay attention to labels on anything? I do. Body positivity is great. I think it makes us better people. But in the 90s, we didn't have that. We were obsessed with losing weight. When I was in college, I was like the thinnest I've ever been,

and I thought I needed to lose weight. So this whole like fat-free craze, it consumed us. Yeah. So bring on the elestra. Well, the guy running this thing is a man named Michael Jacobson. And Jacobson's been called America's number one food scold, the chief of the food police, and the ayatollah of the food industry. Oh my God.

Yeah. He has spent his career lobbying for things like healthier school lunches. Love that. And he's even credited with coining the term junk food. Wow. How do you think Jacobson would have stacked up against your own parents at your dinner table growing up? My parents would have loved it.

I told you they were obsessed with all that stuff. Yeah. I think it was just part of our culture. We were all kind of in on it. Yeah. Well, boy, does Jacobson hate Olestra. Of course. Yeah, he thinks the fat substitute

is not fit for human consumption, and he puts himself smack dab between P&G and the FDA's approval of Olestra, raising the flag on the whole inconclusive rat thing from P&G's Olystra studies. The approval process drags on and on and on, and it takes nearly a decade before the agency comes to a compromise. The FDA approves Olystra, but vitamins must be added to the fat substitute

and to P&G's horror, a warning label is required to inform consumers of its side effects. So let's take a look at that warning label. Could you please read this very famous label to our listeners? I would love to. This product contains olestra. Olestra may cause abdominal cramping and loose stools. Olestra inhibits the absorption of some vitamins and other nutrients. Vitamins A, D, E, and K have

been added. That's a lot. That's a lot. But you know what is past that warning? Fat-free potato chips. Yeah. It's 1996. And P&G is not happy, but damn it, they got to the finish line. So the head of P&G at this time is a new CEO named John Pepper, and he comes into the role right at the finale of this whole long FDA approval process. So could you please read this quote from P&G CEO John Pepper. I think Olestra is going to be viewed in history as one of the real benchmark innovations in this

company. A testimony to persistence and science. He would say that. Yeah. Doing his job. Yeah, it's a testimony to science. It's a testament to having scary amounts of money and coal. But go off, John Pepper. And I say that because years later, it turns out the FDA commissioner made the compromise because he was too scared to fight PNG. He wanted to focus his energy on big tobacco instead. So why do you think PNG is scarier than big tobacco? Wow, I don't know.

Yeah. Who's in charge? That's really crazy. I mean, I gave up alcohol five years ago, and I've done a lot of research in addiction, and I think things like cigarettes and tobacco and things you can be addicted to, it's very easy to say that's bad for you

and you should give that up, but food is something that we all need. Like, we have to, we need it to survive. So, it's such a to say, that's bad for you and you should give that up. But food is something that we all need. We have to, we need it to survive. So it's such a bigger part of our lives. And P&G also, they were all over our house. Sure. Diapers and shampoos and toothpaste and... We trusted them.

We trusted you. We trusted. How dare you proctor a gimbal? How dare you Procter & Gamble? Well it's 1997 and Olestra is ready for market tests. P&G cooks up some fat-free chips and sends researchers out to a couple of supermarkets. Initially test markets show promise. So the company gets cracking on crackers and they open a brand new factory to make Pringles and Ritz crackers with Olestra. At this point, P&G has put about half a billion dollars into

Olestra and is eager to make their money back. That's a lot of money. Their goal is to make a billion dollars off Olestra the year it finally hits the shelves. Luckily for fans of money, P&G inks an eight figure deal with Frito Lay to make fat-free Doritos, Ruffles, and Lays with their own special label. Oh my God.

Wow! With an exclamation point. Oh, that's right! I forgot about the wow! Yeah. Another really important question. Do you have a favorite chip? I do love Doritos.

Oh, and you know, actually Cool Ranch Doritos, I know that's, is that trashy? It might be, but I think Chili Cheese Fritos are kind of disgusting and amazing at the same time. Yeah. They're like nasty good. I actually recently just had a Cool Ranch Dorito for the first time in like a long time. I think I forgot about them. And it just, it was really nostalgic for me.

And I think they're great. I don't think they're trashy. And to anybody who doesn't agree with us, they can kick rocks. Well, one year later, we arrive in 1998. This is the year of President Bill Clinton's impeachment. Titanic wins best picture, but most notably, wow, potato chips hit the shelves.

Well, P&G leans in hard. They want everyone to know about this breakthrough in snack engineering. Let's watch one of the WOW! ads. SNL's Sheri O'Terry is the spokeswoman. You know they're fat-free. Only half the calories. These are fat-free? Wow.

Wow. Wow, these are good. Take the WOW! challenge yourself. Bet you can't taste the difference, only half the calories. These are fat free? Wow. Wow. Wow, these are good. Take the wow challenge yourself. Bet you can't taste the difference or it's free. Oh, that was the actual commercial. Yeah.

I thought we were watching an SNL skit. I was waiting for something to go terribly wrong. Well, are you sold? I am now. Wow. Yeah. Well, there are tons of ads for Alestra products. There are ads featuring parents acting like their kids

because they can eat junk food again without worrying about weight gain. And there's one with some folksy farmers telling the viewer that Olin is natural because it's made from their soybeans. Wow, that's a stretch. Well, despite all evidence to the contrary, the execs at P&G are not totally clueless about this association people were bound to have with their chips. They know that the label and rumors about the side effects will mean poop jokes, and

that's a major pain in the butt for sales. Well, P&G, they decided to tell everyone that hey, food related gas pains are normal. You get them when you're eating beans and cruciferous vegetables, right? So everyone knows that. It's the same. Well, after a chip eating child in an Olestra test market has diarrhea for three days, they suggested it was a virus. P&G seeks out scientists who are writing good things about Olestra and funds their continued research.

Damn. This is wild. But I was like, so they're saying painful gas is normal. Should we consider that gas lighting? It's the origin of gas lighting. It's the wow chip. Don't strike a match. So it's time for Olestra's first annual earnings report. Olestra has made $400 million in sales and P&G projects they'll make $1.5 billion off of Olestra the next year.

Do they? I don't know. I'm on the edge of my seat. They don't. Oh, right. Okay. It was a disaster. The process to get Olestra developed and FDA approved was so long that by the end of the 90s, fat was no longer the boogeyman of healthy eating. Now things like carbs were coming under fire. The Atkins diet is only a few years away,

so chips weren't going to be in vogue no matter the fat content. Yeah. More importantly, consumers hate the taste and the texture of the snacks. Despite what Ms. O'Terry says, in a blind taste test where seven people tried Olestra chips alongside regular chips, five of them could immediately tell which ones were which because of an unpleasant chemical aftertaste. Oh yeah.

Not cute. Two others said the roof of their mouths were coated with something weird and unpleasant. Yep. Not good descriptors of snacks. And then one of the tasters joked that you wouldn't really care if you ate them quickly and guzzled some diet soda. You know what I just realized? In the Olestra era, can we call it that? Yeah.

I was in college, I was a chain smoker, and I always had a Mountain Dew in my hands. So I think that equalized the chemical aftertaste. I didn't notice it because I was chain smoking and drinking Mountain Dew. in my hands. So I think that equalized the chemical aftertaste. I didn't notice it because I was chain smoking and drinking Mountain Dew. Olestra pairs perfectly with a Camelite and a Mountain Dew. Yeah, we did not have any taste buds to speak of. So...

Well, another complaint from customers, they aren't losing weight. So what gives? A later study with rats will reveal the reason. Always with the damn rats. So it turns out when rats were fed Olestra and then switched to a normal diet, they couldn't stop eating. The fat substitute had f'ed up their satiety. It turns out this diet junk food just gets us to eat more junk.

Uh, you know what? They should have given the rats a cigarette and a Mountain Dew. The big flop, where we promote smoking cigarettes and drinking soda. So, finally, that little anal leakage problem isn't going away. More than 16,000 complaints are sent to the FDA about flatulence and underwear stains. Oh my god. Although it should be noted, some or even most of these anonymous complaints could just be jokes like, would you be tempted to call up the FDA for a good goof? Of course. Yeah, I would.

Yeah. Speaking of jokes, the media is having a field day with a toilet humor, which is also hurting sales. So let's listen to a clip. This is a condensed version of a mad TV sketch. Now there's cholesterol, the new fat substitute with 10% less anal leakage. This is your diaper after eating foods made with regular fat substitutes. No. And this is your diaper after eating foods

made with new cholesterol with 10% less anal leakage. Wow. I'm beginning to understand. Good. No. Geez. How did they think putting the phrase anal leakage on a food product was going gonna work in any way?

They should have just scrapped it and thrown in the towel at that point. Seriously. Yeah. Well, it wasn't just sketch shows. The late night hosts, you can bet that they were having a good time with this. So, could you please read a few of these top 10 lists

of Olestra slogans from David Letterman? And gird your loins for some growners. a few of these top 10 lists of Olestra slogans from David Letterman. Okay. And gird your loins for some growners. Look like Siskel, eat like Ebert. Oh. From the chemical vat to your mouth. Hey, lard-ass, this vat's for you. These jokes would not work today. They sure would not. Jay Leno also had one.

The reports say, Olestra is said to cause diarrhea and, in their words now, anal leakage. So folks, when you're through with the Pringles, you might want to hang on to the can. Oh, no. Have you ever made any Olestra jokes of your own?

Believe it or not, there's an Olestra section of my current show. Really? And you know what's interesting? I'm in Canada right now. I had a show in Toronto and I have another one tonight. And when I got to the section where I start talking about Olestra, the reactions get very mixed because they don't exactly know what I'm talking about. Because clearly, now that you just told us this story, only in America will they bend the rules that hard to get us the potato chips we want. This didn't fly anywhere else in the world. So, P&G is not winning a lot of friends.

Olestra has become a national joke, but their true nemesis remains the folks at CSPI, specifically the Skulder-in-Chief, Michael Jacobson. Jacobson is really concerned about the stomach cramping side effects that have been reported. He says, quote, if Olestra just caused occasional gas or mild loose stools, I wouldn't be concerned. But the severity is shocking. These snack foods are like a fraternity prank. Wow. Yeah. I can't stop saying wow.

Yeah, wow. Jacobson holds a press conference to discredit P&G's new product. So let's take a listen to a moment from that conference. The FDA must protect the public from an additive that has already caused severe symptoms and might even cause deaths. If those symptoms

occurred when the victim was engaged in a risky activity such as swimming or driving. It's only a matter of time before products containing olestra cause deaths. The only thing that should die is olestra itself. Oh, he was proud of that last line. He was proud. He looked in the mirror and said that several times that morning. We should know that there haven't been any deaths attributed directly to Alestra, but how do you feel about this argument?

Why, what's the thing about it? It was going to inhibit driving? I don't know if he means, because he said swimming and driving. So I don't know if it was like the cramps were so bad that people were going to drown or like crash their car. Okay, that makes sense. I was imagining the anal leakage was so severe. That's what I first thought.

That you're like, I need to pull this car over. Or you're swimming in a pool and your diarrhea is so bad, you're like, I'm just going to kill myself. Right. From embarrassment. So, that's how it causes death. Yeah. Well, Jacobson sets up a toll free hotline, 1-888-OLESTRA for folks to report symptoms

after eating OLESTRA products. They get calls from people who say they thought they were going to die or that they were basically experiencing childbirth equivalent pains. Wow. Yeah. Doesn't sound pleasant. While the walls are closing in, Olestra is getting hammered from every direction and disappointing sales are making things worse.

So again, you are still the big wig at P&G. What would you do to prove to the people that Olestra is okay to eat? More Olestra, I don't know. That seems to be their tactic at every point. Well, P&G CEO, John Pepper steps up to the plate to prove Olestra is good to eat. Oh, he eats it in public. He publicly lunches at the corporate dining room to make a point. He bites down on chicken veggie stir-fry, carrot cake, and a salad smothered in dressing,

all made with Olestra. He even performatively asks for some extra dressing to take home. Then he dives into a kiddie pool filled with Olestra for the whole world to see. While Pepper risks death by diarrhea in the name of the shareholders happiness, Jacobson doesn't stand idly by. There is a constant back and forth between the two camps that continue to snipe at each other. For example, one article written by Elizabeth M. Whelan from the American Council on Science

and Health said, while there is no evidence that eating foods made with Olestra will help you lose weight, Olestra clearly does offer a benefit, choice. That's an angle. Well, could you please read an article written by Jacobson in response. When you see the slick ads portraying Olestra as a godsend to an obese nation, in response. 1-8-8-0-0-Lestra to report your symptoms.

Then tell your friends and neighbors just how glorious not eating elestra is. Mm-hmm. I wasn't in any sort of debate club, but who's winning this argument? Not elestra. I don't think so either. To counter, P&G pulls out the big buns. I mean, guns. They hire one of Washington's most feared private investigative firms to undermine CSPI's credibility. They call in favors from organizations they regularly donate to, like the American Dietetic Association and the American Medical Association. Money talks.

Yeah. And yet, none of this generic corporate villainy moves the needle any. People truly do not want to eat anal leakage causing chips. So in 1999, sales are about half a billion, which sounds like a lot, but it is 50% less than P&G wanted. And John Pepper steps down as CEO. New CEO, Dirk I. Yeager, I'll repeat that name, Dirk I. Yeager, announces that P&G's $250 million plant only produced 60 to 70% of what it was supposed to.

The plan to add Olestra to cookies and use it for french fries is canned. So, just to be clear, they spent 30 years developing it, 10 years trying to get it FDA approved, make half a billion dollars on Olestra chips and crackers, half of the profit they wanted, and then they just give up. Do you have any thoughts on why they would have given up so quickly? Wow. I had no idea. I just remembered it as Olestralora liked the chips. Sometimes I'd have a bag with my cigarette in Mountain Dew, and it seemed fine. I had no idea there was so much intrigue. And what was the Dirk guy's name?

Dirk I. Yeager. That sounds like a fake spy. I know. I saw that and I was like, huh, good for you. PNG responds to all this by pointing out that the FDA did clear Olestra and Olene for consumption and saying, quote, Olene is a replacement for fat, not for common sense. Combined with a balanced diet, moderate portion sizes, and proper exercise, it's a step in the right direction to help consumers achieve and maintain good health. While the tide continues to turn against P&G, while the chip-happy Americans might be free to gorge themselves on olestra products,

Canada and Europe refuse to approve the possibly harmful vitamin leaching fat substitute. Oh. And that's about three billion dollars in potential sales down the toilet. You know, I could have used this information before my show last night in Canada. I felt the room pull away from me when I started talking about Elastra. Well, by mid-2000, P&G's stock has lost about half its value from just a few years ago. After spending three decades and millions on marketing, P&G cans the wow brand. After complaints taper off, the FDA removes the loose stools warning label in 2003, but it's too late. P&G has had it. Goliath is tired. They more or less shelve

their beloved fat substitute and the dream is over. So consequence-free junk foods are like that last pringle in the can that P&G just can't reach. Oh. Aww. So, I guess now that you know the story, are there any lessons to be learned from it? Yeah. You know what? The breaking point is anal leakage. Yeah, that's... Like just in life. Like, just remember that if you've

got a big decision to make, if it involves anal leakage, just go the other direction. Run. Well, let's do a little where are they now? John Pepper is firmly in his eighties and long retired. Besides philanthropy, he runs a personal blog called Pepperspectives, where Pepper, a former Republican, trolls Donald Trump. Good for him. Although Olestra is not approved for consumption in many places outside of the US, like the EU and Canada, it's still approved for use here in the good old US of A. Oh, it is.

Wow. These days, it's just hard to find. In 2003, Lays used Olestra in their line of chips called Lays Light. But they stopped producing Lays Light by 2016. But don't worry, there is a happy ending for our favorite little fat substitute. In 2009, Olestra was repurposed as an eco-friendly paint and industrial lubricant. Whoa.

I love a good pivot. You said industrial lubricant, right? Not a personal lubricant. We could sign up to be the test rats. Honey, grab the Olestra. I keep a bottle of Olestra bedside. But how many people does it take before it goes from personal to industrial?

Oh, well, I don't know. Does it cause anal leakage? Hahahaha. Michael Jacobson has since retired from CSPI, but he was pretty pleased when he learned about the pivot in Olestra. He said, quote, they built a whole factory to produce this stuff. So I guess it's a good idea. As long as you're not lubricating your gastrointestinal tract, it's fine. Yeah, sure. He's salty.

Grease up your machinery. Yeah. Also here on the Big Flop, we like to try to be positive people and end on a high note. So are there any silver linings that you can think of that came from the Olestra era? Well, it gave me some material for my act. The most important thing.

That's important. And, you know, it's really fond memories of college. Of how silly we were, how weird we were about our bodies and the things we would do to achieve what we thought we were supposed to be. It's poetic, really. It is poetic. Just like how Olestra can leach vitamins from your system, it can also do the same for poisons. There is some research out there that says it can help people who

are exposed to harmful substances. Really? Yeah. So if you swallow something poisonous, Olestra can save your life? For legal purposes, we're gonna say allegedly. So now that you know about Olestro in its entirety, would you consider this a gassy baby flop, a crampy big flop, or a mega flop? Oh, it's clearly a mega flop.

It's the floppiest of mega flops. It could be a jumpy big flop or a mega flop. Oh, it's clearly a mega flop. It's the floppiest of mega flops. Yeah, I mean, that's a really long time to invest in a product that was on shelves for, what, three years? Yeah, a flash in the pan. Flash in the pan, as they say. Well, thank you so much to my incredible guest, Kevin James Thornton, for joining us here on The Big Flop. And thanks to all of you for listening.

Please remember if you're enjoying the show to leave us a rating and review. We'll be back next week with a much more family-friendly flop, JCPenney's doomed apple-inspired makeover. Bye. Bye. Bye. If you like the big flop, you can listen early and ad free on Wondery Plus. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple podcasts. Prime members can listen ad-free on Amazon Music.

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