The Big Flop - The Wing: #GirlBoss Goes Bust with Sarah Marshall and Franchesca Ramsey | 29

Episode Date: April 1, 2024

In the run-up to the 2016 US Presidential election, a new, glossy coworking enclave for women emerged to meet the moment. The Wing was supposed to be a model for feminist social clubs, built on activism, inclusion, and self-care. Instead, it became a glaring example of toxic girlboss culture and workplace discrimination, with employees mainly using the nursing rooms to cry.Sarah Marshall (You're Wrong About) & Franchesca Ramsey (Black History For Real) join Misha to smash the glass ceiling (and dusty pink walls) of The Wing, and take a daring look inside its downfall.Follow The Big Flop on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to The Big Flop early and ad-free on Wondery+. Join Wondery+ in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Wondery Plus subscribers can listen to The Big Flop early and ad free. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple podcasts. On the fifth floor of a building in Manhattan's trendy SoHo district, Audrey Gelman, a former PR strategist and under-30 bigwig, holds court with like-minded female power players in her 10,000-square-foot clubhouse. Dubbed The Wing, Audrey's expansive hideaway is a lush gathering space, neatly decorated with brassy surfaces, scholarly tones arranged by color, and pink couches that are, for a lack of a better adjective, labial.

It's a feminist utopia. Women are reading and typing everywhere, and they're sipping drinks served by nervous but smiling baristas. If you watch the barista's eyes, you'll see they're all looking right up at the ceiling, where water droplets are starting to gather, threatening to fall on the boss. Employees nervously check their watches. Audrey excuses herself. She always has an important meeting to get to. Everyone pleasantly waves goodbye as she departs. The door shuts behind Audrey. A pause. Then staff members snap into action, whipping out buckets to place around the floor. There's another rainstorm coming this afternoon. Now's their chance to catch the water from the cracked ceiling.

The buckets are now a routine at the Soho space, which the staff refer to as the Rainforest Cafe. By now, the workplace has gotten too toxic to bother your boss about a little thing like water damage. Unless you want to be the next one crying in the break room. The employees go back to their regular duties and wait out the storm. But, oh no, Audrey's meeting switched venues.

She's coming back, hide! No, not you, the buckets! ["The Buckets"] We believe that women deserve a space like this. They're super high rent, they're not getting breaks from their landlords, so they're covering a huge rent nut. Their corporate employees recently staged a digital walkout, which led to the resignation of CEO Audrey Gellman. We are on a sinking ship. From Wondery and At Will Media, this is The Big Flop,

where we chronicle the greatest flubs, fails, and blunders of all time. I'm your host, Misha Brown, social media superstar and your wingman at Don't Cross a Gay Man. And today we're talking about The Wing, a women's only co-working space that girl bossed itself right out of business. ["The Wing Theme Song"]

Hello, I'm Emily, one of the hosts of Terribly Famous, the show that takes you inside the lives of our biggest celebrities. Some of them hit the big time overnight, some had to plug away for years, but in our latest series we're talking about a man who was world famous before he was even born. A life of extreme privilege that was mapped out from the start, but left him struggling to find his true purpose. A man who, compared to his big brother, felt a bit, you know, spare. Yes, it's Prince Harry. You might think you know everything about him, but trust me, there's even more. We follow Harry and the obsessive

all-consuming relationship of his life not with Meghan but the British tabloid press. Hounded and harassed Harry is taking on an institution almost every bit as powerful as his own royal family. Follow Terribly Famous wherever you listen to podcasts or listen early and ad free on Wandery Plus on Apple Podcasts or the Wandery app. On our show today, we have Francesca Ramsey, comedian and host of two wonderful podcasts, Let Me Fix It and Black History for Real. How are you doing? Oh, thank you so much for having me.

I'm super excited to talk about The Wing. Yeah. We also have with us another podcast legend, Sarah Marshall, co-host of the podcasts You're Wrong About and You Are Good. Welcome to the show. Thank you so much for having me. I am already brimming with schadenfreude.

One quick thing I want to note before we begin. I'm going to be mansplaining this feminist co-working space to two women today. I guess I've reached peak podcast host. (*Franchesca laughs*) Francesca, we were chatting before we started that you were in fact a member of The Wing, right? I was a member of The Wing, that millennial pink haven, the Instagrammable backdrops.

I was in there working, networking, drinking mocktails, the whole nine. How about you, Sarah? Were you a member of the wing or? I was not. I think the only co-working space I was part of was in West Philadelphia next to an anarchist coffee shop where if he ordered something with espresso, the cashier would look at you like, Oh brother. The story of the wing begins with Audrey Gelman, a young public relations strategist from New

York. Audrey begins her career as a political PR flack, working for the Hillary Clinton campaign in 2008, then later for Scott Stringer's campaign for Comptroller in 2013. Gelman, extremely adept at PR, is able to organize a fundraising event for Stringer with lots of young, well-connected New Yorkers. Think Lena Dunham types, including Lena Dunham herself.

Who then parodied the wing on girls. Yes, that's right. I know everything. I do think about Audrey Gellman, you must be a PR genius to get young people excited for comp trolling, right? I don't even know what comp trolling is. So obviously she's killing it. So comp trolling is basically the person's in charge of the

city's fiscal health and roots out at like fraud or misuse of city funds. Okay, so sexy. Yeah. They could have come up with like a cuter name like money bitch. It's like a French person tried to spell the word controller. Yeah, controller. Yeah, it does sound like that. It doesn't work for me.

Well, in 2013, Gelman, who is only 27, is on her way up. For any fans of HBO's Girls, she's an inspiration for the character of Marnie. She was like on Girls, right? Because she makes mustard. Am I making that up? Yes. Actually, Gelman, she appears on Girls as the character named Audrey in three episodes.

It's very subtle. As you can imagine, Audrey Gelman is a busy woman on the go. She's traveling all over NYC for shoots, events, meetings, and she's going back and forth to Washington on like a fancy train probably. It's too much. So Gelman often finds herself without a home base, and she's reduced to using Starbucks bathrooms and has to charge her phone up in hotel lobbies between meetings. Have you ever had more than one thing to do in a big city and needed a full bath? I mean, listen, I was the target audience for the wing, truly, because I was like, I

can't go back to Brooklyn and then come back and like turn right around. As I'm hearing the story, I'm like, I'm ready. Where do I sign up? Yeah, I'll never forget because I lived in New York City for 12 years, and there was one particular day in the dead middle of summer, it was so hot, and I had like three auditions, and I'm just like running down 8th Avenue, like in my dress-up clothes, so I can like impress these people, and I just like, I walked into one audition just fully wet.

And then you booked. And then I booked, yeah audition just fully wet. I'm sweating. And then you booked. And then I booked, yeah. Here we are. Around 2015, Gelman hatches the idea for Refresh, a place for women to make a pit stop, change their clothes, charge their phones, or fix their hair and makeup. Gelman shares her idea with Lauren Cassin,

fellow Brooklyn native and hyper-achieving youngster. Kassin is the director of Studio Empowerment at ClassPass and she likes Gelman's idea. But she tells Gelman to think bigger. Refresh is basically a members-only bathroom stall. Kassin thinks that's just not enough. And Cassin says Refresh could potentially be a whole community of women with member-only bathroom stalls.

But what better community of women is there than a bathroom stall in a way? Right. Think smaller, everybody. Together, Gelman and Cassin create a whole social collective modeled after late 19th century women's clubs. Gellman and Kasson's new club, The Wing, opens its first location in October of 2016

in Manhattan's Flatiron neighborhood. Can you guess where the name The Wing came from? Ooh. Tampon. Pads. I know how they work. No, I can't. I can't. Well, it's meant to be like the wing of a house. It's also reminiscent of the West Wing, where the power players are at. So that's where it came from. Oh, cute. There's a rose where every time a pedal

falls off, Audrey Gellman gets closer to the grave. You know, I also think it's really funny because oddly, refresh sounded to feminine douche product, but the wing rang zero alarms. No, I thought refresh to me sounded like a juice bar. The first wing outpost is described in the press as a feminine oasis covered in pink furniture. How millennial. And according to Gelman and Cassin, it's a, quote, place for women on their way.

Francesca, can you describe how you remember it? It was very, very pink. The furniture was all very cute, very mid-century modern, lots of gold fixtures. Truly, like my Pinterest had just thrown up all over the place. Every time I was in there, I was like, I love this pillow. And there was a bookshelf, a giant bookshelf with all the books arranged by color,

which I know upset some people, but no one was looking at those books. They also had like little glass booths where you could take a phone call, which I just thought was like the coolest thing because I hate being in a Starbucks and having to take a private phone call. Tons of free tampons, tampons everywhere. You need a tampon, you got a tampon. You got a tampon. Oh, and a really cute coffee area with like snacks and matcha lattes and alcoholic drinks, but like non-alcoholic like mocktails and stuff too. Love that. You mentioned the phone booths. Do you happen to remember the names of those phone booths?

Oh, I don't remember, but I definitely all had cutesy little names, but I can't remember what any of them were. Yeah, we found private phone booths named after Lisa Simpson, Anita Hill, and Lady Macbeth. Now there's a trio. I mean, honestly, I feel so embarrassed, but I'm sitting here going, I love that. That's the worst thing is when you can feel yourself being marketed to and it's working 100%.

And you're like, whatever, I surrender, I love it. The wing opens its doors during a tumultuous time for women. It's fall of 2016, only weeks away from the potential election of America's first female president, Hillary Rodham Clinton. Ah, yes. Tensions are high, but so is optimism. And soon, Trump will be a distant, ugly memory.

The opening night party is attended by 100 notable women. Guests include founding members like actress Natasha Lyonne, former J. Crew president and current Real Housewives of New York star Jenna Lyons, love and hip hop creator Mona Scott Young, models, activists, Andrew Cuomo's chief of staff, and Glossier's founder. During the party, these guests change into white pajamas provided by the event for a very adult sleepover. They're going to all do their taxes. Yeah.

Yeah. The attendees feel optimistic and empowered. Safe, cozy, and energized. Polls show Hillary as the front runner, and 175 happy members of the wing gather for what they cautiously assume will be a wondrous occasion. Audrey Gellman presides over her flock, dressed in a pink t-shirt that reads,

Madam President and a I Came to Break Hearts baseball cap. The clock ticks, time passes, and the party turns somber. Attendees process the bad returns in real time, desperately check their phones, and try not to pass out from the stress. By 11.30 PM, everyone's despondent. The women head home to sleep off the event, hoping they'll wake up to discover it was all a big prank. If not, a safe space like the wing will be needed more than ever.

I spent Election day 2016. I was so relaxed. I was baking a cake, you know? I was like, whatever, time to celebrate in advance. And then I learned that you should never do that. Heather I had a not good feeling the whole day. I got invited to like a pre celebration party and I just for some reason I knew not to go and I was like, I just was like, well, if she doesn't win, Hillary was going to be there was like huge party. And I remembered thinking if she loses, I don't want a camera in my face while I'm crying because I'm going to be really upset. And I went home. And of

course, the rest is history, which is very wise because like what happened happened, but you know, to be be like I am not going to be CNN B-roll god damn it. Donald Trump's presidency seems to sharpen the wing's mission. Gellman and Kassen channel the energy of the climate into buzzworthy events. They present a talk by Hillary Clinton, they throw a launch party for Jennifer Lopez's skincare line, they host film screenings for Greta Gerwig and they even hold a fundraiser for Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez in her first race for Congress. So membership in the wing becomes a coveted commodity. Women are clamoring to join. Price of admission ranges from $1,500 a year for founding members all the way up to $3,000 a year for some members.

On top of all of that membership money, they're raking in the investment dollars. In 2017, WeWork invest $28 million into the wing. So, the community is growing, and you know what that means. They're developing their own vernacular. So let's play a game. This game is called Wing Lingo, and here are the rules. This is a multiple choice quiz. The guest with the most correct answers wins. Here's the first question. quiz, the guest with the most correct answers wins. Here's the first question. What is the nickname some members of The Wing use for themselves?

Is it A, birdies, B, wingsters, C, nesty besties, or D, winglets? Oh, man. I feel like if I don't win this quiz, it's going to look really bad. I'm going to guess winglets. I don't love it. I would have not called myself that. That's also my guess because I feel like it's the cutest without being nesty bestie level cute, which I feel like is too much. Well, ding, ding, ding. You're both right. The answer is winglets. They also use the terms cistern, which sounds like an underground water tank, and wingwomen. I definitely heard people say wingwomen.

All right, second question. According to the New York Times Magazine, the wing is not a sorority. It describes itself as a blank. Is it a beehive, a flock, a coven, or Congress? I feel like it's got to be coven because like, coven language was off the charts in 2017. Oh, yeah. There were so many like, we are the daughters of the witches. You couldn't burn that whole vibe. Which is also funny because like some of us have to be the daughters of the witch you couldn't burn that whole vibe. Which is also funny because some of us have to be the daughters of the witches who were burned. Yeah, kids.

And also some of y'all are saying, that girl's a witch. And statistically, there's better odds of that. Yeah, I know. Exactly. I'm going to also say Coven. Yes. Ding, ding, ding. It is Coven, which is defined by Merriam-Webster as a collection

of individuals with similar interests or activities or an assembly of usually 13 witches. That's the hard part is getting 13 women together, you know, on the same night. Third question. What is the name of the in-house wing magazine? Is it A. The Witch Tower, B. No Man's Land, C. The Fourth Wave, or D. Queen's Gambit? I think it was No Man's Land. I'm going to go with that too because the fourth wave feels like too grandiose. Although that makes me wish they called it No Country for Old Men, but you know.

Well, ding ding ding, it is No Man's Land. Y'all are slaying this game. It's also a really good pun. So the magazine featured whistleblower Chelsea Manning, actress Greta Lee and comedian Jessica Williams. It also features a piece on the women of the CIA. Which is really peak girl boss where it's like you know who slays pink propaganda. All right one last one. According to an employee at the Boston Wing location, the employees were expected to follow a code of conduct that was known as the ISMS, the Wisdoms, the Girl Code, or the Gospel according to Gilman. I'm going to say the Girl Code.

I trust you. No, this one was the isms. You know what? The girl code's better. It was a better name. Yeah. Isms are usually not good things. Racism, the sexism, like, yeah, not good.

Well, the first and the most important of the isms is love thy member, as in the members are the most important thing. That's true. We learned that from romance novels. So the appeal is undeniable. The wing is a respite from the horrors of the world. It's a place to harness female anxiety into something joyful, and by many measures, they treat their members like royalty. But how do we think this feminist company treats its employees, most of whom are women, including many women of color?

Not great. Well, rumor has it that Gelman might not be the picture of perfect feminism that she claims to embody. To put it bluntly, many would say she's abusing her staff. While Gelman gases up certain employees, others accuse her of gaslighting. One day, Venus Williams visits the Wing to give an inspirational talk. But uh-oh, some dirty dishes are found in the beauty room. Gellman shuts the door, does the dishes, and starts going off.

The employee present recounts being berated and driven to tears by Gellman, who said, quote, a CEO shouldn't have to clean. Oh, really? Although a wing spokeswoman denied that this occurred, two employees who were present confirmed it. Later, for a publicity stunt, Gelman takes photos of herself washing dishes and puts them on Instagram.

But also just the idea of like, CEOs aren't supposed to wash dishes, but wait, if I do wash dishes, I can get cookies for it. Like, come on now. Yeah, I mean, if you do wash dishes, I can get cookies for it. Like, come on now. Yeah, I mean, if you were one of the employees, how would you react to seeing that post? Like, it wouldn't feel great to me. No, not at all.

And unfortunately, like, that is something that I see time and time again, where behind closed doors, people act one way, but then like, their personal profile shows a very different version of them. And in my experience, it's a really hard pill to swallow because, I mean, you really do feel like you're being gaslit. Oh, yeah. Another wing worker is reassigned

and has her hours drastically cut without explanation. But just so happens that she forgot to greet Gellman by name while working the front desk during Gellman's sister's wedding shower. I feel like Audrey Gellman has made the classic Michael Scott era of watching the Devil Wears Prada and forgetting who the protagonist is supposed to be. Which is fair. She's much more charismatic, Miranda Priestly, but you know. Also, when the ceiling of the SoHo location in New York springs a leak after construction,

Wing employees are told to hide the dripping buckets from her site lest they disrupt the illusion of perfection. And I feel like they really missed an opportunity to just slap a little birdbath label on those buckets. It's punny, it's cute, you know what I mean? Gelman also seems to favor the more glamorous employees. Those with cute accessories, beautiful outfits, and interesting side gigs. One employee explains it this way, quote, you learn the game very quickly.

As long as everything looks Instagram ready, we're good. So, how would you fare if your whole job was based on your image? I mean, I am hot, so I feel... I feel like I'm a little biased. But you have to worry about other people. Listen, I mean, I say that tongue in cheek, but the reality is, as somebody that is an actor and I'm also, you know, a quote unquote, social media person, it is really hard and time consuming and stressful to always be thinking about like what you look like.

And it's unfair to take your own insecurities and then project them onto other people. Like if Audrey Gellman wants to be stressed out about what size pants she's wearing and how her hair looks, fine. But then to make that other people's problem is completely unfair. And yes, anti-feminist. SONIA DARA I love framing it as her doing the frantic company is coming mom cleanup, but on like a toxic corporate scale. Yeah.

Well, by 2018, 40% of the wings execs are women of color, but employees at lower levels are not seeing the benefits. One former employee, Tahira Jarrett, told Jezebel, quote, they were brainwashing us into thinking that there was hope, which doesn't sound fun. At first, Jarrett's excited to be offered a job saying, quote, I was really looking forward to working in a space like the wing, this magical place where all these feminist women would roam. She goes from fluffing pillows and offering water to washing dishes in the

back. Things come to a head one day when Jarrett calls in sick and management insists on knowing why. When she admits to having a miscarriage, the response is straight up uncaring. She paraphrases her boss, I'm really sorry you're going through this. If you're not coming in, call us. Don't wait too late. Yikes. Jared quits a day later. Yeah, she should.

It's giving, okay, but your job is more important. Yeah. I mean, and unfortunately, like, you would hope that any workplace would be sensitive to that. But especially one that has like this, quote unquote, feminist girl boss vibe would be more sensitive to the fact that that's not something that you just like get over immediately, physically or emotionally. And it's and it's and also none of their business. Yeah. And it seems like you can't have something that is aggressively expanding to keep pace with sort of corporate values in America while claiming to have these grandiose human rights values where these,

you know, and these two things basically have to contradict each other. And you know what, I have to say, like, when all of those things came out, I personally was shocked because those are things that I didn't observe. But I believed it even though I wasn't privy to it myself. But again, it's a good reminder, but just because you haven't seen it doesn't mean that it's not happening. And I think people have to be better at acknowledging that. So, while these incidents keep bubbling up, it doesn't stop the wings' rise. Partially, thanks to the nondisclosure agreements, they had employees sign. By 2019, the company secures another $100 million from venture capitalists, as well as a veritable

murderers row of millennial girl bosses. They include Mindy Kaling, Obama advisor Valerie Jarrett, and soccer star Megan Rapinoe. Nice. So, by March of 2020, the wing has been operating for only three and a half years. But thanks to its war chest and diligent PR, it has successfully opened offices across the country and a global expansion is imminent. At its height, the waitlist gets up to 9,000 names long. What could go wrong? Oh, just a little global pandemic to kick things off.

So as the wing expands, it needs more workers, and it hires primarily women and non-binary folks, which is good, unless there's no equity in the workplace. Most employees work as, quote, space staff with duties like greeting guests, managing the cafe area, and the most feminist thing ever, scrubbing toilets. It's true. We learned that from Girl Wash Your Face. The Wing convinces these low-level employees that they will have access to the company's network of connected people. Here is just a fraction of the complaints that have been reported on by the New York Times and Jezebel. A black transgender employee of the Chicago location is berated by a white member for

using they them as pronouns because the member felt it was incorrect grammar. One black employee recalls being jokingly referred to as the help. One black employee overhears two of her white coworkers using the N-word, but she says no disciplinary measure is taken. And one of the community events suggested by Audrey Gelman herself is for women with red hair to discuss how hard it is to be a ginger. So what is she thinking here? What does it even accomplish? It's made me prejudice against redheads weirdly. I mean, I think this is just one of those like stunning examples of like even that a

lot of times marginalized people forget the fact that they still have privileges. And I think especially when we talk about white feminism, too often there is a subset of white women who talk about their status as women and the very valid challenges that they face while failing to acknowledge the fact that they are also still white. And this redhead thing is a perfect example. And also, let's say like, you can be a person of color and have red hair, right? Like, it's not just white women, but the framing in itself seems to suggest that like the needs and the feelings of redheads are something that need

to be centered when the reality is like, girl, put a hat on. You're fine. It's like a very babysitter's club type mistake to make in a way. It could all be sort of Don learns a lesson, but it can't if Don is the CEO and doesn't have to listen to anybody. Yeah. According to the employees, the wing does keep a policy offender log that's shared across locations. However, according to reports, hardly any action is ever taken against misbehaving members, at least not when it's racism. For example, in May of 2019, Asha Grant, wing member and the director of the Free Black Women's Library Los Angeles, brings a guest to the West Hollywood Wing. The two

black women are confronted in the parking lot by a white member. The white woman alleges that the parking spot belongs to her and begins flipping off Grant and her guest. The verbal attack continues, but the wing does not ask the aggressive white woman to leave. Grant says, quote, it was another example of white women's comfort prioritized over black women's pain. She cancels her membership. And actually, this member from the parking lot incident is later banned from the West Hollywood location. The guest goes to leadership, explains she's well connected and threatens to make business difficult for the wing. The leadership team unbans the guest.

Wow. She should absolutely lose her membership. I mean, and not to say that that's going to fix racism, right? But again, just acknowledging we screwed up, we're sorry that that happened. Here's what we're going to try and do to make up for it. I feel like that goes a long way because that's so rare. Yeah, I agree. But the company is still relatively new, only a couple of years old, so maybe the Wing folks, they can redeem themselves in 2020? You know, 2020 is going to be our year. Why not? I'm feeling good about it.

I'm feeling hopeful. Hindsight as they say is 2020. So obviously in spring of 2020, COVID-19 strikes, which obliterates co-working spaces, events, and anything the wing has to offer. 300 staff members across the country are laid off as wing locations are shuttered. The wing waves membership fees. GoFundMe campaigns are launched to help staff, which members happily contribute to. The Wing offers a small stipend of $500 as emergency relief for former staff.

The catch is they have to apply for it. And when some claim their stipend doesn't come, the Wing cites insufficient funds. But how do you cite funding shortages when you have millions in venture capitalist funds? Well, because all of that is mine, Silly. It's for me. So during lockdown, people have time to consider what they've been putting up with and re-evaluate. The hypocrisy of the wing leadership catches up with them fast in June of 2020, during the protests over the murder of George Floyd. The wing, like many businesses and organizations at the time, post a very generic Black Lives Matter graphic. They also make a

statement about how they condemn racism and promise to make a corporate donation of $200,000 to notable organizations. The thing is, the wing had already been asked to be a place of supportive activism in the past. One Black coworker had already pitched a Black Lives Matter support circle, but a white woman at the company rejected the proposal, suggesting it would be, quote, hard to fit in when there was already a yoga class on the schedule.

JANELLE WONG June 2020 was such an interesting time because this happened across a number of organizations where they were making these big grandiose statements and then their employees were saying, "'Eh, eh, eh, eh, eh, that's not true.'" Mm-hmm. Do you think it's surprising that it took something grandiose statements and then their employees were saying, "'Eh, eh, eh, eh, eh, that's not true.'" Mm-hmm. Do you think it's surprising that it took something like a massive moment

in 2020 for all of these stories to come out? Unfortunately, I have had experiences in the workplace where I've had superiors say racist things. And it's one of those things where, like, you feel like you're in the office, where you like look at the camera and you're like, does anybody else see this happening? And you don't have anybody to turn to. The silver lining is that moment in time,

there were so many people using their voices to call out injustice, that it gave people almost like a sense of safety. So it's so unfortunate that a space that built itself as feminist was not empowering staff in a way where they could be honest about their experiences so that people weren't coming forward and or when they did, they were shut down or their hours were cut or they were fired, which again just like promotes a culture of silence. Absolutely.

This is when the Wing's dirty laundry starts to get aired. After the Instagram post, former and current staff members immediately speak out. And finally the world gets a taste of the drama behind the scenes. Former employees like Tahira Jarrett talk openly with the press about their experience. And the remaining employees of the wing are angry, especially with Audrey.

When Gellman's actual assistant is laid off, Lauren Casson's deputy chief of staff, who is Black, is asked to pull double duty and support both founders. She quits. A Chicago employee calls out Gelman's priorities and values as, quote, capital revenue, the advancement of white rich women and overpriced furniture. How does Gelman, co-founder of the Wing and leader of women, respond to the criticism of the Wing's BLM post? She does what any great business leader would do in the face of controversy. She takes responsibility for the toxic culture she created and takes steps to better the lives of the people who work for her.

No, I'm just kidding. She resigns. And also they turned off their comments quickly. I remember that. On June 10th, 2020, just 10 days after the BLM post, Gelman sends a company-wide email saying that she's decided to leave The Wing, stating it's the right thing to do for the business. In response, writer and Wing member Jessica Blankenship writes, not to be insensitive,

but what's happening to all the furniture? I will say there was a fire sale at the wing here. I think it was in West Hollywood. And I was so mad that I couldn't go. I also have no room for furniture, but it is exactly the thing that I was thinking about, too. I really wanted one of those little pink and gold chairs. After Gellman's departure, co-founder Lauren Kasson stayed on as CEO but struggled with restructuring the company. In 2021, IWG, a flex office space company, purchased a majority stake of The Wing.

The feminist network of coworking spaces was now owned by a billionaire white dude named Mark. A year later, rather than submit to the patriarchy and maybe declining membership, the wing completely shuts down. Is that though the ultimate feminist move? Tie an early death and walk into the sea. Well in August of 2022, members received an email confirming the wing would flap no more. After initially getting $100 million in investments, the company was now out of money. To blame were the usual global pandemic and economic challenges.

But do you think the wing could have survived the COVID-19 lockdown if it had cultivated more goodwill? Oh, yeah, totally, because I feel like I'm always trying to get friends over to my house or to go to a coffee shop with me and then ignore me for three hours. BOTH LAUGH I don't know. I mean, we definitely still need places like this, especially spaces that are catering

to marginalized communities. There's one that's like a Black membership club here, and I know of some like queer and non-binary spaces that have hopped up. I mean, we need them and people enjoy them. So let's do a little, where are they now? Audrey Gellman spends her time pursuing her true passion in life, furniture. She runs an old timey home goods store in Brooklyn called the Six Bells.

I think that's great because you know what, furniture doesn't have feelings as far as I know. Yeah. Do you think Audrey has learned anything though? No. No. And unfortunately, the reality is she doesn't have to learn anything. She lives in a white supremacist society that is built for her. And you know, she's allowed to put up an Instagram post and resign and move on with her life and continue to have a thriving business. And the reality is, in order to learn and grow from your mistakes, you have to want that.

Mm-hmm. Or maybe her new company is called Terrible Person Knick Knacks. Knick Knacks for people who aren't that great. We're not promising anything. Leave me alone. -♪ POP MUSIC PLAYINGan. -♪ Well, here on The Big Flop, we do try to be positive people and end on a high. So, are there any silver linings that you can think of that came

about from the wing? I would say the employees who were able to voice their grievances and talk about the way that they were treated, while it's not an actual solution, it doesn't repair the harm in that way, I will say that speaking truth to power is a way in order for folks to heal and move forward. And I would even say like covering the story on the big flop, I think that that's a positive thing. Like we need to have space to reflect on these types of events so that people can can again

learn from them. Yeah, for the public, I hope that there has been further evidence that the fantasy of doing extremely well financially by doing something that seems sort of broadly good in a nice vague sort of way is often concealing a lot of very specific crimes. And also we can tell jokes about it. It's very important. Obviously, we should be clear that Audrey wasn't convicted of any crimes. And my silver lining is, I do think that for a bit, the wing did provide a place to connect away from men,

which is definitely a fair thing to want. Yeah, I mean, look, it is troubling and heartbreaking to hear that these things were happening behind the scenes. But I will say, I loved being a member there. I got a lot out of it. I made a lot of great friends. I got a lot of work done. I wrote my first book at The Wing. I took some great meetings at The Wing. Like, I enjoyed the space and what it was meant to offer. And I think that it's an important reminder

that we can try to do good things and there can still be consequences. Yeah. a reminder that we can try to do good things and there can still be consequences. Yeah. Well, now that you both know about The Wing, would you consider this a baby flop, a big flop or a mega flop? I'm going to say this was a big flop. It was such a huge fall from grace.

To go from getting those massive investments in the very early years only to shutter its doors a few years later is pretty huge. And also for the downfall to be at the hands of their own employees. Yeah, I would say big flop too. This was driving a company into the ground on the scale of a lot of the startups that we see flopping as well. And ethics aside, underestimating how complex it is to execute something that might seem simple if you've never really had to get into the details of it. The girl bosses prove that women can be

as foolhardy as men, and I really appreciate that, because I know I am. -♪ HMM-HMM-HMM-HMM-HMM-HMM-HMM-HMM-HMM-HMM-HMM-HMM-HMM-HMM-HMM-HMM-HMM-HMM-HMM-HMM-HMM-HMM-HMM-HMM-HMM-HMM-HMM-HMM-HMM-HMM-HMM-HMM-HMM-HMM-HMM-HMM-HMM-HMM-HMM-HMM-HMM-HMM-HMM-HMM-HMM-HMM-HMM-HMM-HMM-HMM-HMM-HMM-HMM-HMM-HMM-HMM-HMM-HMM-HMM-HMM-HMM-HMM-HMM-HMM-HMM-HMM-HMM-HMM-HMM-HMM-HMM-HMM-HMM-HMM-HMM-HMM-HMM-HMM-HMM-HMM-HMM-HMM-HMM-HMM-HMM-HMM-HMM-HMM-HMM-HMM-HMM-HMM-HMM-HMM-HMM-HMM-HMM-HMM-HMM-HMM-HMM-HMM-HMM-HMM-HMM-HMM-HMM-HMM-HMM-HMM-HMM-HMM-HMM-HMM-HMM-HMM-HMM-HMM-HMM-HMM-HMM-HMM-HMM-HMM-HMM-HMM-HMM-HMM-HMM-HMM-HMM-HMM-HMM-HMM-HMM-HMM-HMM-HMM-HMM If you're enjoying the show, please leave us a rating and review. And we'll be back next week with another flop that played out on social media. Actually, it is social media. It's Elon Musk's Twitter Takeover. Bye! Bye! Bye! If you like the big flop, you can listen early and ad free on Wondery Plus. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple podcasts. Prime members can listen ad free on Amazon Music.

Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short survey at wondery.com slash survey. The Big Flop is a production of Wondery and AtWill Media, hosted by me, Misha Brown, produced by Sequoia Thomas, Harry Huggins, and Tina Turner. Written by Anna Rubinova, engineered by Andrew Holtzberger. Our story editor is Drew Beebe. Our managing producer is Molly Getman. Our executive producers are Kate Walsh

and Will Malnaty for At Will Media. Legal support by Carolyn Levin of Miller, Korzenik, Summers, and Raymond. Producers for Wondery are Matt Beagle and Grant Rudder. Senior story editor is Phyllis Fletcher. Managing producer is Joe Florentino. Music supervisor is Scott Velasquez for Freesong Sync. Our theme song is Sinking Ship by Cake.

And executive producers are Lizzie Bassett, Morgan Jones, and Marshall producers are Lizzie Bassett, Morgan Jones, and Marshall Louie for wondering.