The Big Flop - Theranos: Silicon Valley's Bloodbath with Kathleen Madigan and Heather McDonald | 14

Episode Date: December 18, 2023

More than a few vials of blood were spilled in the unbelievable story of Theranos. Its CEO, Elizabeth Holmes, took the world by storm with the promise of a device that was going to change medicine forever. Instead, she endangered patients and defrauded investors. In the end, the only thing Holmes invented was her persona, and even that involved a lot of stealing. Oh, and green juice. It took a lot of green juice.Comedians Heather McDonald (Juicy Scoop with Heather McDonald) and Kathleen Madigan (Kathleen Madigan: Hunting Bigfoot) join Misha to get the lowdown on Elizabeth Holmes and her gory demise.Follow The Big Flop on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to The Big Flop early and ad-free on Wondery+. Join Wondery+ in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Wondery Plus subscribers can listen to The Big Flop early and ad-free. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Fluorescent lights cast an eerie glow on the faces of worried executives. The country's most powerful and connected men have assembled for battle. They include two former secretaries of state, a former senator and chairman of the Armed Services Committee, and, just for fun, a former defense secretary of the United States. Normally, a group like this would only come together in the middle

of a global conflict. Instead, they're trying to do damage control for a medical tech company. This is the War Room at Theranos. Helmed by Elizabeth Holmes, the charismatic founder and CEO, Elizabeth Holmes, the charismatic founder and CEO. Theranos is known for a revolutionary healthcare device that promises to easily and accurately diagnose diseases. But its ability to deliver on that promise is suddenly being questioned in an expose. Holmes guzzles green juice. The men drink coffee. Their plan of attack? Holmes has to fight back. Her battlefield? CNBC's Mad Money with Jim Cramer. Elizabeth, I have to tell you, in all my years, I can't recall a private company that I can't believe many have never heard of getting this kind of attention and scrutiny. What do you think is going on here? the tension and scrutiny. What do you think's going on here?

This is what happens when you work to change things. And first they think you're crazy, then they fight you, and then all of a sudden you change the world. Much like her blood-testing device, the appearance doesn't work. And there's no war room in the world that can protect the phony fortress that is Theranos. that is Theranos. In 2016, after a series of surprise inspections, federal regulators shut down the company's laboratory. I actually don't think that our valuation is what matters here.

What matters here is the integrity of our data. It's a stunning fall from grace for the woman who was once poised to change the world. We are on a sinking ship. From Wondery and At Will Media, this is The Big Flop, where we chronicle the greatest flubs, fails, and blunders of all time. I'm your host, Misha Brown, social media superstar and major hemophobe at Don't Cross a Gay Man. And today,

we're talking about Theranos, a company that promised to revolutionize medicine and ended up as just another bloody mess. Hello, I'm Emily, and I'm one of the hosts of Terribly Famous, the show that takes you inside the lives of our biggest celebrities. And they don't get much bigger than the man who made badminton sexy. Okay, maybe that's a stretch, but if I say pop star and shuttlecocks, you know who I'm talking about. No? Short shorts? Free cocktails? Careless whispers? Okay, last one. It's not Andrew Ridgely. Yep, that's right.

It's Stone Cold icon George Michael. From teen pop sensation to one of the biggest solo artists on the planet, join us for our new series, George Michael's Fight for Freedom. From the outside, it looks like he has it all. But behind the trademark dark sunglasses is a man in turmoil. George is trapped in a lie of his own making with a secret he feels would ruin him if the truth ever came out. Follow Terribly Famous wherever you listen to your podcasts or listen early and ad-free on Wondery Plus on Apple Podcasts or the Wondery app. On our show today, I am so excited. We have two legendary people. We have Kathleen Madigan, a comedian and host of Madigan's podcast.

And we have Heather MacDonald, a comedian and host of Juicy Scoop with Heather MacDonald. Welcome to the show. Thank you. Hi. Hi, Heather. Hi. So I'llop with Heather MacDonald. Welcome to the show. Thank you. Hi. Hi, Heather. Hi. So I'll start with you, Heather. Is there a flop that you can think of that you've had that you want to tell the listeners?

I mean, there's been some jokes, you know, where you think it's going to be a big hit. I usually try it about three times and then I'm like, you know what? This just, I thought everyone would think was hilarious and people thought it was in poor taste. taste. Well, we can go over it after we push stop. Yes, yes. What about you, Kathleen? In my own little Elizabeth Holmes moment, I really thought that Krispy Kreme donut stock was going to go above 50 because it went from like 10 to 49. It would have got to 49. My brother told me to sell it, and I told him it was full of crap. And I tripled down.

And then it just tanked it. I lost all my money. I was really counting on America being hungry. And it just didn't work out. So Heather, not to give too much away, but you did Elizabeth Holmes' trial on your podcast. So what was so captivating about it to you? Well, you know, I covered the whole thing

as it was coming down. And then of course, watch the movies. I was just fascinated that these men were captivated and gave her their money for this idea that had no real backing. Like nobody really checked it out. And so that I thought was like so juicy that like a pretty blonde girl could

pull this off. Tells you a lot. It sure does. Well, like any good story, I think we should start at the beginning. So Elizabeth Holmes is born in Washington, D.C. to humble farmers. Oh, wait, no, I misread that. I'm sorry. Her mother was a congressional staffer and her father was a vice president of Enron, an energy company that collapsed after committing widespread fraud. Go figure. So young Elizabeth's mission in life, according to a letter that she wrote her father when she was just nine years old, quote, is to discover something new, something that mankind didn't know was possible to do. I wasn't talking like that at nine years old.

I just think people, once they get their story, then they go back in time and say, oh, I wrote this when I was nine or I said this and I wrote a letter to Jimmy Carter. And, you know, come on. Sure.

We could all say we did all that. Where's the actual letter? And let's carbon date the paper. I didn't buy it. He doesn't buy it. Well, by 2003, Elizabeth Holmes is a 19-year-old chemical engineering student at Stanford. And she is already making a name for herself as brilliant and motivated. She filed her first patent before her 20th birthday. It's

for a patch that can theoretically diagnose a person and administer appropriate medicine. How does that compare to your motivation at 19, 20 years old? Because I was trying to get the cheapest drink I could, to be honest. What's crazy about people like this, which I did not have, that attitude of like, well, why not me? Why wouldn't I be a billionaire? Just this unwavering confidence. I think it's who your parents are. My mom was a nurse and my dad was a lawyer and he didn't really like being a lawyer. And all he would say is just make sure you have your weekends off and whatever you do during the week you like. That's what I was told. I wasn't told, hey, have you ever heard of a patent? I wouldn't even

have known what a patent was. I've kind of studied like con people and it is crazy when you really deep dive that these people were doing shit at like seven. Yeah. That was like shady. Like, you know what I mean? Stealing a bike and being like, no, this bike is mine. No, I got it from my uncle. And they don't even have an uncle. Like there's just some people that are just born weird. I think she's one of them. So in 2004, Holmes drops out of Stanford to run her new startup then called Real Time Cures.

Her goal is to save lives by making blood testing faster, cheaper, and easier. A noble endeavor. She herself is terrified of needles and imagines a new way to test for disease with only a pinprick. No veins, diagnosing hundreds of medical issues with as little blood as possible. She just needs money. So Holmes convinces her parents to invest unused tuition money and some of their own retirement savings. And she also gets a former neighbor and venture capitalist to invest $1 million. Wow. Eventually, Real Time Cures is renamed to Theranos, a pormento of therapy and diagnosis. And their signature invention is a device called the Edison, after Thomas Edison, the inventor. That's the kind of clever branding a Stanford education will get you. It's a microwave-sized box that supposedly takes a little bit of blood and can run 240 diagnostic tests with precision. So let's say you're an investor.

What do you think of that pitch? Oh, no, not until I see your magic box. I mean, it's a magic box. It's a physical object. Nobody said, show me your box. Nobody said it. It's like anything. Like, and this happens too in Hollywood. You get invited to something or somebody calls you and you're like, and they're like, but Kathleen Madigan's going to be there

and Jerry Seinfeld's going to be there and all these big names are going to be there. So get in the shower and come on down. And don't forget, most of those people she targeted were old. That's the thing. So they wouldn't know how to do our own deep dives, which we could all do now to an extent. Right. They would just believe it if they didn't, quote, see it in the newspaper.

Right. Yeah. She was a literal child. But I do think that part of it is that she did have this distinct genius vibe. that part of it is that she did have this like distinct genius vibe. And I think that's something that the media also kind of latched onto, right? Because she claimed that she drank nothing but green juice for sustenance. You know, she doesn't take vacations. She's only got the black turtleneck and puffy vest combo that she sported all the time. And also something that we found, unfortunately, for all of her employees to be able to wear that signature turtleneck puffy vest combo that she sported all the time. And also something that we found, unfortunately for all of her employees, to be able to wear that signature

turtleneck puffy vest combo, the Theranos office temperatures had to be set to a chilly mid-60s. Oh, I would have quit right there. I have Renaud syndrome. My fingers are going numb over your outfit. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Same. Oh.

But another signature feature of Holmes' persona, which we've kind of touched on, is her voice. You know, because publicly she speaks in this sort of deep, raspy, masculine tone. One drop. If you could do one drop and save your uncle's life, wouldn't you do it as well? Incredible. I know when it's made up. Well, on that note then, let's see if you have what it takes to spot Elizabeth Holmes' real voice. And the only way that we can do that is with a game. So here are the rules.

I'm going to play a clip for you and you need to tell me whether you think this is her real voice. Ready? Yep. All right, here's the first clip. Over the last 11 years, we've reinvented the traditional laboratory infrastructure. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. No, that's her, but with her fake voice, correct? Yes, that is not her real voice.

This is the deep voice she puts on for investors and in speeches. Okay. All right. So, ding, ding, ding. Here is the second clip. This is an inspiring step forward. An inspiring step forward. Well, that's not her.

That's not Amanda's voice. That's her doing Elizabeth. Correct. That is Amanda Seyfried doing Elizabeth's fake voice in The Dropout TV series. Next up is Hilaria Baldwin. Talking about cucumbers. Okay. Ready for the next clip?

It turned out he had a nub on his elbow and we talked to our lab team and they said, okay, you can do the draw. Oh, that's her normal voice. It's still kind of low though. Yeah, she definitely has a low voice. So the New York Times, they did a recent interview and they said her real voice is soft, low, and quote, unremarkable. But Holmes, she told the New York Times that she used the voice to avoid seeming like a little girl She thought the voice provided cover for inexperience And it made her appear more masculine and mysterious Traits associated with cult leader-like CEOs

You know what's really weird is, you know, so many women will put on like the sexy baby voice. Right. And this is like the only case that we've ever heard of where someone changes their voice to come off more capable and like smarter. Yeah, like I think that was a part of, Steve Jobs was very not social, but super duper smart. And I think she was just copying that.

That's exactly right. So like that was, I mean, she really idolized him. The turtleneck and everything, the mannerisms. She went all out because, you know, as we mentioned before, Holmes loves green juice. And it turns out so did Steve Jobs. I mean, Steve also ate mostly fruits and veggies and fasted a lot, which, by the way, he claimed eating or not eating this way helped him, quote, induce euphoria. Yeah, it's a long way to go to get where you could go with a piece of pizza. Yeah. I mean, like the juices, the outfits, these were all just aesthetic.

But what Holmes really adopted from Jobs, according to Vanity Fair, was his obsession with secrecy. And boy, did Elizabeth Holmes have secrets. One huge secret Holmes keeps throughout her career is that her trusted Theranos accomplice, Ramesh Sunny Balwani, is also her sometimes boyfriend. Wow. They meet in Beijing in 2002, when Holmes is still in her late teens and he is literally twice that.

He's married but going through a divorce. Somewhere in the next three years, their relationship becomes romantic because in 2005, they move in together. And in 2009, Sonny becomes Theranos' chief operating officer and president. Probably just coincidence, right? Yeah. So besides the secret relationship, red flags about Theranos are popping up. If you apply for a job at Theranos,

you're not told what it is unless you're hired. According to Vanity Fair, one person joked on their LinkedIn resume, quote, I worked here, but every time I say what I did, I get a letter from a lawyer. I will probably get a letter from a lawyer for writing this. So what were they working on when they got the job?

If there really wasn't anything that was actually effective, like were they just acting busy too and cashing their paychecks or what? Well, what I gathered is that they were working on trying to make the machine work. There was actual attempts. And some of those kids were super duper smart. But I like that that generation will just take a surprise job.

Nobody my age would be like, yeah, I applied. I don't know what for, but I'm going in on Monday. Like, there was so much secrecy within the company. So people in different departments didn't have any of the information they needed from the other departments that you really didn't know how catastrophic everything really was. Because the Edison just didn't work. So there's a lot to do inside of this small little box. There were so many tiny moving parts. I mean, pieces would constantly fall off, temperatures kept fluctuating, and even the doors wouldn't close properly.

Eventually, Ian Gibbons, a respected scientist working on the Edison, falls victim to the company's toxic practices. He spends years trying to make Holmes' theories practical, despite dealing with his own major health problems. He has cancer. So, according to his wife, Ian becomes more vocal at the company and therefore a problem for Holmes. Gibbons is fired, then rehired and demoted, so he thinks he's being kept on the payroll as a way to keep him silent. And on May 23rd, 2013, he dies as a result of a suicide attempt.

Ugh. Which is connected to his worries over Theranos. And instead of condolences from Holmes, his wife receives a request to return all of Theranos' property. Oh, I think she was detached from anyone's feelings, obviously. I think she was also super, super paranoid of that man. He was older. And I feel like she thought he was a real threat because he's old. So he doesn't give

a shit as much as the young kids that want to keep their job. Her first thought was get those computers back, not send flowers, not his poor wife, not I'm sorry he did this because I brought this situation into being. No, no, no. It was what about me? What does he have on me? Who has he sent emails to? It's just cutthroat, cold, sociopathic. You got in my way and here's, you know, sorry you're dead, but I need my stuff back. Yeah. I mean, because despite these problems behind closed doors, Holmes needed to push ahead because she was in too deep. You know, the money is flowing in still, but also the consequences of admitting her tech was useless would be disastrous. So in September of 2013, Theranos nabs their biggest client yet. They

start a partnership with Walgreens to bring their innovative blood tests to the public. Together, they open a Theranos Wellness Center in Palo Alto, and later 40 of them in Arizona. Reminder, this thing doesn't work. And if you get misdiagnosed with a disease you don't have or aren't diagnosed for one you do have, there could be serious medical consequences. And yet, by 2014, Theranos raises $400 million, pulling the wool over the eyes of people like Larry Ellison of Oracle, Robert Kraft, the Patriots owner, Betsy DeVos. I mean, we all know who that is. Members of Walmart's Walton family and Carlos Slim, the former richest man in the world. I mean, the company is valued at a staggering $9 billion. I feel that there was an era, which I hope is over, where the startups, everybody was looking

for the next Steve Jobs. And maybe they did that, like I think when Thomas Jefferson and Thomas Edison and all these people were coming up with inventions. Maybe people did it back then. Maybe they were looking for the next Thomas Edison. I don't know. Like, what if she's the one and we're given the opportunity as initial investors, you don't want to miss out. It's the fear of missing out, the FOMO thing. Like, even old people feel that way. Yeah, I agree. So Forbes includes Holmes on their list of billionaires with a net worth of $4.5 billion, making her the youngest female self-made billionaire in the world.

So it's at this point that Elizabeth Holmes is on the cover of Fortune, Forbes Inc., Time Magazine, and is named Woman of the Year by Glamour, which is suspect, given that she only has the one look. People say that she is the next Einstein. And I remember the PR was insane because I remember totally buying into it being like, this is so incredible for this woman. And because it was not your typical inventor looking person,

you know, those are the kind of articles that get picked up. Just like when someone goes missing based on who they are, what they look like, you know, the Raider cheerleader who's blonde and blue-eyed will have 20 episodes back in the day on hard copy when she went missing, but somebody else from not Hollywood goes missing and like barely gets an article written in the local paper. It's the same thing. She's a great cover. And it makes me mad. It makes me mad because I majored in journalism when I was a journalist after college. And all of the legwork we had to do to prove something was true.

Like I'll speak to radio people and they'll say, well, your Wikipedia page says you were married to Carrot Top. And they believe that. I have to tell you something else, Kathleen. I once did a morning radio show with all the guys. And they're like, so we're reading your Wikipedia and you do a Donald Duck impression. I'm like, no, I don't. Well, you better start.

What the hell is this? I had no idea. Fake it till you make it. But now the wheels on the bus start to fall off because somewhere out there is this nettlesome little journalist named John Carreyrou who works for the Wall Street Journal. In 2014, he picks up a copy of The New Yorker with a profile on Elizabeth Holmes. I'd like to imagine it's all while smoking a pipe and cleaning a spyglass. And his detective senses, they start to tingle.

Something isn't adding up. So John Carreyrou starts doing some digging on Elizabeth Holmes and Theranos' wild claims. His beat is healthcare, so he's very familiar with how blood testing works. He's especially suspicious because Holmes refuses to flat out say how the Edison works. So let's do a little reenactment. Heather, would you mind reading Holmes' explanation on the technology? A chemistry is performed so that a chemical reaction occurs and generates a signal from the chemical interaction with the sample, which is translated into a result, which is then reviewed by certified laboratory personnel.

And that's how we do it, with one drop. That was so good, by the way. We're not scientists, but let's pretend. I mean, what do we think after reading that? I feel like you can just say a lot of things, and a non-scientist is just like, okay. Yeah. You know, like if you did just make up something like,

when the chemicals are infused with an element of testing in a certain temperature, it's just then when we realize the abnormalities and these abnormalities are excavated into the source in which tells us through the machine that there is a issue with the size of the human molecule. And see, this is why, like as a reporter, if my editor said, Kathleen, did you ask the lady how it worked? And I'd be like, yeah, I did. And here's what she said. I wrote it down. And then my editor go, well, what does that mean? I'm like, I don't know. I'm not a scientist. You should have a scientist on this reporter beat not Kathleen.

But like, that's the problem. You need somebody that knows science, not the lady from Glamour. In October of 2015, Kerry Rue publishes his first of many scathing articles on Theranos' sketchy practices. He reveals that Theranos isn't actually using the Edison for all 240 tests. It's more like 15 tests. The rest require a totally normal amount of blood, and by diluting the blood, And by diluting the blood, Theranos tests can lead to inaccuracies. So Theranos' board is made up of former defense specialists like Henry Kissinger, who recently passed at age 100. Yeah. He was popular when Nixon was president.

Like, I really couldn't even believe when they said his name. I'm like, oh my, just the fact that that name is even, but that's how you rope in more old people. Yeah. You say, I got Kissinger on. He's on board. Yeah. I think having this bunch of powerful think tank types would theoretically, you know, come in handy for Holmes. The team decides on a PR push to dismiss these false allegations from Carrie Rue. They contact Jim Cramer of CNBC's Mad Money to set up an interview for damage control. But she ends up sounding even more suspicious, evading Cramer's softball questions and claiming people are only coming after her

because she's on the cusp of changing the world. Yeah, just still sticking with her own story. I just don't understand how you're not riddled with anxiety. How do you even sleep at night? It's inevitable that it's going to crash. And you're like, no, let's just keep going for it. Like at no point, she's just like, hey, you know what? It didn't work out.

I'm filing for bankruptcy. I'm out. Exactly. So Holmes returns to Palo Alto to address the situation of all of this. An email is sent to hundreds of employees to meet in the cafeteria. Holmes, with Balwani there for support, gives her classic, we're going to change the world speech to the staff. And the crowd takes her side, and they start chanting, fuck you, Carrie Rue,

fuck you, Carrie Rue. So they're still drinking the Kool-Aid, but Holmes is justifiably panicked at this point. The Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services visit Theranos' lab and realize that it's all a sham. The CMS finds unqualified lab employees are sending tests so inaccurate to patients that they put them at risk for serious diseases like strokes. And the FDA also inspected Theranos' HQ and blood testing labs. So that's not good news. I really think that I don't have a lot of skills,

but one of my skills is to know if somebody's full of shit. And I would have looked at that lady and went, this is a cult, this is bullshit. Same. I'll take the checks till they stop coming, but just know this is all going to come crashing down. Yeah. Well, there was also some more bad news for Theranos.

Walgreens severs ties with Holmes and in 2016 sues her for $140 million. The FDA bans Theranos from using the Edison at all. Holmes is also banned from owning and running medical labs. So there are legal battles galore, and lawsuits are coming in against Theranos for millions of dollars. Good for them. But it's also on you, Walgreens.

Yeah. I mean, you didn't check, and now you're banned because it doesn't work. Well. Accountability, a strange concept. Yeah. As Theranos takes a dive, Forbes retracts their valuation of Holmes' net worth, and I'm going to read a quote. Last year, Elizabeth Holmes topped the Forbes list of America's richest self-made women with a net worth of $4.5 billion. Today, Forbes is lowering our estimate of her net worth to, what do you think they lowered

her valuation to? 11 million, 7 million. Quote, nothing. Oh, wow. 4.5 billion to zero. Wow. Well, then you should cancel yourself as a magazine. Yeah. I mean, if you made that big of an error, you're not even really a money magazine anymore. You're just guessers. I might as well write it. So finally, in November of 2022, Holmes is sentenced to 11 years in prison

for defrauding investors, and Balwani also receives a similar sentence of 13 years. But Holmes is a changed woman in prison, or so she says. Since the scandal went down, Holmes has rebranded. She's no longer wearing the turtleneck. She's gone back to her pre-tech guru voice. And sidebar, she becomes friends with another convicted felon, Jen Shaw from The Real Housewives of Salt Lake City. And

Shaw runs a class at a prison called Shawmazing Abs. And Holmes has apparently taken class. Well, you have nothing else to do. Why not? Holmes is also now a and Holmes has apparently taken class. Well, you have nothing else to do. Why not? Yeah.

Holmes is also now a mother of two. A New York Times profile points out it's very possible that Holmes, who goes by Liz now, has created another empathetic character, this time a chill mom. It's like the ultimate trait of a con person to just like keep going and believing their own bullshit. And I just find that fascinating.

Same. So here on The Big Flop, we do like to end on some positive notes. So can you think of any silver linings that came about from Theranos and Elizabeth Holmes? Black turtlenecks went out of style again, thank God. Thank you. I'm hoping young people won't take surprise jobs anymore inside NDAs.

I'm hoping they've learned their lesson. And maybe the media has learned to check a little further before you just throw somebody on the cover and say they're a genius. That's a far maybe, though. So my silver linings I thought about was this fiasco brought more attention to the sorry state of healthcare and showed that there is money for inventions that could save lives. And finally, the scandal gave Amanda Seyfried a juicy dramatic acting opportunity. Yes, it did. And she was very good at it. She was wonderful. She sure was.

So now that you both know about Theranos, would you consider this a baby flop, a big flop, or a mega flop? I don't believe anybody died. They had stress, they were misdiagnosed, and rich guys lost money. I'm going to say a big flop, but not a mega flop. Yeah.

I'll say mega because the guy killed himself. Oh. Oh, that's true. Sorry, I forgot about that. Yeah. And then the financial victims were rich people already. True. Which I feel is like that's why people aren't that sympathetic.

It wasn't like a Jen Shah who like took from like elderly and lower middle class people, you know? Well, thank you so much to my guests, Heather MacDonald and Kathleen Madigan, for joining us here on The Big Flop. And thanks to you for listening. We'll be back next week with another flop, a holiday special from a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away. Bye. Thank you so much. This was so fun.

Thank you so much. This was so fun. Thank you. If you like The Big Flop, you can listen early and ad-free on Wondery+. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Prime members can listen ad-free on Amazon Music. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short survey at wondery.com slash survey. The Big Flop is a production of Wondery and At Will Media, hosted by me, Misha Brown. Produced by Sequoia Thomas, Harry Huggins, and Drew Beebe, with support from Tina Turner. Written by Anna Rubinova. Engineered by Andrew Holtzberger.

Our managing producer is Molly Getman. Our executive producers are Kate Walsh and Will Malnati for At Will Media. Legal support by Carolyn Levin of Miller, Korzenik, Summers, and Raymond. Producers for Wondery are Matt Beagle and Grant Rudder. Senior producer is Lizzie Bassett. Senior story editor is Phyllis Fletcher. Managing producer is Ricky Wiebe. Music supervisor is Scott Velasquez for Frizzin' Sink.

Our theme song is Sinking Ship by Cake. And executive producers are Morgan Jones and Marshall Louis for Wondery. We are on a sinking ship. We are on a sinking ship.