The Big Flop - Tiger King: Joe Exotic's Cat-astrophic Flop with Last Podcast On the Left | 76

Episode Date: February 24, 2025

Joe Exotic built his kingdom on the backs of big cats, bad decisions, and bedazzled button-downs. But when his roadside zoo empire collided with animal rights crusader Carole Baskin, their clash unleashed a storm of eccentric enemies, failed murder plots, and the worst country music videos ever uploaded to YouTube.Ed Larson and Henry Zebrowski (Last Podcast On the Left) join Misha to uncover the untold details of this exotic animal saga.Be the first to know about Wondery’s newest podcasts, curated recommendations, and more! Sign up now at https://wondery.fm/wonderynewsletterListen to The Big Flop on the Wondery App or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen early and ad-free on Wondery+. Join Wondery+ in the Wondery App, Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Start your free trial by visiting wondery.com/links/the-big-flop/ now.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Imagine a world where you could listen to The Big Flop without any breaks? Newsflash, you can! By joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or in Apple Podcasts, you'll get early access to episodes of The Big Flop and enjoy them entirely ad-free. It's the ultimate way to immerse yourself in the drama of these business debacles. How much do you know about the Tiger King, really? I mean, we all watched the Netflix doc back in the early days of the pandemic, but today in the Big Flop, we're going to learn so much more about the man who describes himself as the gay, gun-carrying,

redneck with a mullet. Oh, and by the way, if anyone knows a good hitman, you know where to find me. I am accused of being one of the most notorious breeders of tiger cubs. Joe Exotic was convicted of plotting to have a temple woman killed. It doesn't matter how bad somebody hates you, if you're on TV, they're gonna watch it just to see what the hell you're up to. Joe Exotic is officially on the Colorado ballot for president. If you fall for that, ladies and gentlemen, you're worse than a bunch of nuts and a squirrel

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visibility at indeed.com slash wonder ECA Just go to indeed.com slash wonder ECA right now and support our show by saying you heard about indeed on this podcast indeed.com slash wonder ECA Terms and conditions apply hiring Indeed is all you need Hiring, indeed, is all you need. From Wondery and Atwill Media, this is The Big Flop, where we chronicle the greatest flubs,

fails, and blunders of all time. I'm your host, Misha Brown, social media superstar and more of a dog person at Don't Cross a Gay Man. And on our show today, we have comedians and co-host hosts of one of my favorite podcasts, the last podcast on the left. It's Henry Zabrowski and Ed Larson. Welcome to the show. Hello. Are you an animal lover? I mean, big cats specifically. Absolutely. I love my big cats

bigger the cat the better. I actually don't like small cats. I prefer larger cats. I'm fine with small cats, but yeah, it's best to have them big so you can know where they are at all. I tell you what, when I first found Joe Exotic back in the day, like it did seem like a fun idea to have an unregulated zoo, but apparently it's very it's actually even more difficult to keep an unregulated zoo. But apparently it's very, it's actually even more difficult to keep an unregulated zoo together than a regulated zoo.

Well today we're delving into the deeply disturbing world of Big Cat Kingpin Joe Exotic, a man obsessed with three things, being loved, dangerous animals, and revenge. Yes. Now, listen, almost everyone is familiar with the story because in March of 2020, Netflix released a documentary series called Tiger King, Murder, Mayhem, and Madness that had folks literally glued to their TVs. I was one of them. I mean, no, they probably would have been glued to their TVs anyway since it was the first week of lockdown, but it still was really, really good.

It did feel like the first government mandated popular thing that we had to be a part of. You had to watch it. Yeah. It was like I was sitting there just waiting for death to come. It was like, he'll help us. Joe Maldonado Passage will help us. Honestly, if it comes out like a month earlier, do we even know about this? Probably not.

I know. People always ask, like, how was COVID for you? I'm like, we got Tiger King. It was a net positive. All right. I learned how to do sourdough. My wife and I got into pecking and I found Joe's on. Well between season one and two, Netflix nabbed six Emmy noms for the documentary.

And it was such a craze, a fictionalized mini-series starring Kate McKinnon and John Cameron Mitchell was made almost immediately. Now, fun fact. Since Big Flop is a proud member of the Wondery family, we're going to take a sec to plug the podcast release by Wondery in 2019 called Over My Dead Body Joe vs. Carol. So if you can't get enough of the drama and want more intel go check it out after this. How much do you know about this saga? I saw all of the Netflix shows like for season one and season two and

then I know right now he's trying to get released and get pardoned from from our new president. So yeah, I mean this story has it all wacky characters, exotic animals, lots of lots of stupid crimes. But as silly as the real story is it also gets very dark at times. So a warning this notorious story has a lot of ups and downs mostly downs. Let's begin at Joe's childhood. He was born in Kansas in 1963 as Joseph Schriebvogel. Joe is the youngest kid in a Catholic family. At first, his life is pretty typical for a farmer boy,

but he is an odd duck. He's always in his own world shooting animals with BB guns and then pretending to treat them. And this actually becomes a weirdly apt metaphor for his entire life because a lot of Joe's time is spent on two things. One, pretending and two, doing F'ed up stuff. You know, it's hard. What's the difference between, you know, in America, we say fake it till you make it all the time. Oh, sure. Yeah. You know, it's hard. What's the difference between, you know, in America, we say, fake it till you make it all the time. Oh, sure. Yeah. You know, it's really just about if you make it all the way to the end. Like, essentially, Joe was doing when fulfilling a national pastime of pretending to be somebody better so that maybe some big money will come, right? Like something will go. He has a heart in a way. He's a big bleeding heart. He seems like he could be worse if that's the way you want to describe him having a heart. Joe Exotic misunderstood. So how do you think a young farmer's boy, Joe Shrevevogel would act out in his teenage years? I can imagine him acting up like an oiled snake. I could see him out there winding his way around every single other farm boy he could

get his hands on. As a former Catholic and altar boy, I would say that I could see him stealing the wine from the tabernacle. I could see that as a Joe exotic young man crime. Well, Joe takes a job at a nursing home and dresses up in scrubs like a doctor. And then he brags to random people about these successful surgeries he's performed. Well, yeah, I did a double lung and get to me the other day. You know how it is when you switch tits on a woman. Yeah, it's easy to do. It's amazing just the perspective from left to right makes him more attractive sometimes. You don't know. He also just sounds like a gay southern Republican.

He has that evil gay Republican streak in him. That's from the very beginning. Well, technically libertarian. Yeah, sure. Very libertarian. Well, thankfully, we can assume he never actually tries to operate on anyone, or this would be a very different kind of true crime story.

This behavioral tendency to impersonate people manifests in different ways. He adds flashing lights to his car and pretends to be a cop. But by oh no. Yeah, but by the time he's 19, he does in fact become a cop for real. Oh, who's just practicing? That's officer exotic, which is yeah, I can also see him

showing up and he forgetting he's not a stripper. Yeah. Oh, yeah, that's right. I need to arrest y'all. I thought I'd got carried away. But when one of his siblings out Joe as gay to his devout father, Joe is disinvited from his father's funeral and he is gutted. I don't think he was invited. Probably not.

I think it was an excuse. Probably not. Probably not. Oh yeah, it's cause you're you're gay Joe, yeah. Not cause of your endless series of liabilities you bring into our life faking being a police officer. Yeah, shooting animals and pretending to be a doctor at a nursing home. None of that has anything to do with it. So when I say the story gets dark, I mean it. But we won't be able to avoid it in this story because most of Joe's motivations and the cycle of chaos surrounding his life

are directly tied to his trauma. So after the thing with his dad, emotionally wrecked, Joe drives his squad car off a bridge. Whoa! So I mean, people obviously assume that it's an attempted suicide. Now he spends almost two months in traction. God, he's gotta be the most single,

annoying man in a body count. Most definitely, you know he was. Hey! Hey! Hey! I got an itch! Hey! All fucking day long.

Relentless. So he also becomes more comfortable with his sexuality and he meets the love of his life, a man named Brian. He lands a job he really likes, working with animals at a pet store in Florida. But to keep that pretending spirit alive, he starts dressing like a cowboy. Now, maybe for the first time, everything is going Joe's way. And maybe he won't have to pretend to be important any longer. He can just become the best version of himself. We can- Yeah, cause that's kind of like what I'm saying too, in a way. Like, you know, when you're searching for what makes you belong?

And I think that Joe Exotic obviously thought of himself, he thought very highly of himself. Like very, what they say about, like as the British say sometimes about Americans, we're all deposed millionaires. Right, we're all people that just haven't made it yet. And so I feel a lot of sympathy for the fact that he popped that

cowboy hat on. And then once the version of Joe Exotic kind of waltz into his life, doors kind of opened up for him. Like people started paying attention to him and giving him that validation. Also, the cowboy hat is a great way to like peacock as a salesman. I just had to deal with this when I bought a car in North Hollywood of all places and there was a cowboy there trying to sell me the car. I hated him but I bought the car. Because there's something about you seem reputable. Like if you're selling me, if you're selling me a bunch of boa constrictors and you don't have a cowboy hat on. Yeah I'd be worried.

So Joe and Brian, they get married. Now, this is in the 80s, way before legal same sex marriage, but they still do a little ceremony. And one of Joe's brothers, Gerald Wayne, AKA GW, helps Joe and Brian buy a pet store. Greatness, here they are. It's Gerold. You know how much of a Kreskraryan is created by the name Garell? Yeah. It's

goddamn Garell. It's not Gary. It's not Harold. It's Garell. It's Garell. So the three of them, they are an unstoppable team. Within a few years, they open up an even bigger pet store and wildlife rescue. It has a garden setter, pent-exu, and a gigantic dog training area. So, sounds good to me. And that's a good way to work up to big cats. Now, unfortunately, it's only a couple of years

before Joe's life takes another downturn. Between 1995 and 1997, Brian is diagnosed with a serious HIV-related infection and Joe's brother, G.W., dies suddenly in a car accident. Oh no. That's sad. Yeah. You're making me feel sad for him.

Well, he's had sad things happen to him. You're allowed to feel sad for him. So Joe's family sues the trucking company involved in GW's death and wins a $140,000 settlement. That's it? For a human life? What was the 90s? They were lucky to get that.

Now the parents want to do something in honor of GW and Joe convinces them to use the settlement funds to open the GW Exotic Animal Memorial Park in Winnewood, Oklahoma, just an hour north of Texas. He no longer wants to stay in Texas proper, like too many bad things have happened there. Definitely. The Alamo. The Alamo. A lot of bad stuff happened in Texas. But this is another thing Joe continues to do throughout his life. When stuff gets too emotional, he tries to outrun his feelings, either literally or by adopting a new persona.

So, at first, GW Park is an 11-acre complex with just a few animals, including a deer and a mountain lion. But very quickly, people far and wide get wind of the new animal sanctuary and start dropping off pets they should have never owned. We're talking lions, tigers, monkeys, strange birds, whatever else folks can get on the black market. I just want to confirm y'all say no questions asked, right? Actually, we didn't even say that. We didn't even say a thing about a question either.

It's like, thank God. All right. I have this separated. It's a toilet filled with crap. We didn't even say that. We didn't even say a thing about a question either. It's like, thank God, I have this separated, it's a toilet filled with crap. It's a long comment, it's a long story. By 2001, G.W. Park has 1,100 exotic animals living on the grounds and almost 90 of them are big cats. Now sidebar, his first two tigers are named Tess and Tickles.

Oh, Tickles the tiger is adorable. But if you get tickles from a tiger, your entrails will be okay. Yeah, I was going to say, it's cute until you remember human beings should not own tigers. But visitors can't get enough of the GW Park spectacle, most of which comes from Joe himself, who loves entertaining and showing folks around. But Brian, his health keeps declining and eventually he does pass away. So another sad moment for good old Joe. Now, according to people close to him, Joe becomes a completely different person again. He starts dating an events producer named JC and gets the idea to tour as Joe Exotic,

a sequined cowboy illusionist. Yes! I love that. Yes, he's got caramel skin. He's got that beautiful, like, there's something about it too, like, cause shaving that part underneath your belly is so hard.

Yes, it takes some extra time. Maybe he needs a friend to do it for him. Well, with his signature blonde mullet and sort of creepy mustache, he hauls truckloads of baby animals to country fairs and charges kids to pet them. He even lets them inside the cages with the animals, much like that lion safari.

It's an obviously terrible idea. Now, somehow, either his magic act was just that good or his charm saves him from any legal trouble during this time. He was doing pretty well. Between ticket sales for his magic show, merch, and donations, Joe starts raking it in. About $117,000 in 2001. Yeah. Whoa! Not bad. That's happy trail money. But also, if you got to, like, feed 180 animals, it's not that great.

Yeah, but if you're feeding McDonald's happy meals, then honestly, you're saving money. Now, of course, yeah, if you have exotic animals, there are always individuals willing to pay top dollar for rare species or even hybrids, which Joe seems to be open to. And to learn more about owning and breeding exotic animals, let's play a game. All right. Okay. Okay. Okay.

Here are the rules. I'm going to ask you some questions and whoever gets the most correct wins and whoever loses gets fed to my tigers. Katniss Evermein and Sir Meowth a lot. All right. First question. What do you call a lion tiger hybrid? Is it A is a liger, B is a lililliger, C is a tilliger, or D is a

tigon? It's a liger! This was a trick question because it's all of the above. What the fuck? I'm sick of being fooled! I didn't come on another show to be fooled! I'm gonna say you're 25% right. We're going to give you the right. I'll take it. So now the name of it just depends on whether it's a first generation hybrid and whether the big birthing cat is a lion or a tiger. All right. Second question. Oh, good.

There are about 4,000 tigers left in the wild. How many are in captivity? Is it A, 4,000 as well, B, 7,000, C, 13,000, or D, 70,000? 70. I bet you it's D. I thought it was B. I actually thought it was more, but I'm going 70,000. All right. Yeah, D.

No, not quite that many. It is C, 13,000. But still, like, well, it's just more knowing that there's a whole market, not only for captive tigers, there's also a fucking like obviously financial, just personal, people have vested interest in doing this. Also growing up in South Florida, Mike Tyson moved to our neighborhood and he had two tigers and the homeowners association was a little upset with him.

So who do they send? Like, all right, all right, Marilyn, you got to go over there and go speak with Mr. Tyson, the cha- go talk with the champ. See what he says. You know, see if you can get those precious tigers from him. He'd be like, Tigers are like my family, tigers. The tigers are like my cousin, they kill us.

They kill us, they want to kill us. It's just like me, you know. It's estimated that there are 5,000 tigers in America where they are not native at all, and an additional 8,000 tigers can be found across East Asia, their natural habitats. So it's a lot. And they're not registered. No.

A lot of them. And that's crazy. I have to register my dogs. Yes. You know, like I have to pay the city of Los Angeles $25 a year for my dogs. All right. Third question. How much does a tiger cub cost to purchase? Is it A $7,500 B $30,000 C $100,000

or D it depends. I'm going to say it depends because I remember them saying it was like $2,000 back in the day at some point for a tiger cub. I know a pound of weed now is like $550. Yeah, it pound of weed now is like 550. Yeah, it's very cheap now. Things have gotten worse for the growers. Yeah, we know that the small farmers. Yeah, they're having a tough time, but I'm going to say it depends.

Yeah. Ding, ding, ding. Of course it depends. Like now a regular boring orange tiger cub is a bargain at just a few thousand dollars. But a white tiger that can be worth 30K. And the most prized and probably the most inbred would be the spotless white tiger cub. But remember, please do not buy a tiger of any kind. Do not buy the tiger.

Don't buy the tiger. Put that money into an index fund. Well, you both win, so congratulations. I'm not going to feed you to my tigers. Thank you! Thank you! I'll fight though! I'll fight!

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George Santos, fake heiress Anna Delvey, and a whole lot more. So what are you waiting for? Join the con-gregation and listen to Scam Goddess wherever you get your podcasts. Joe might be feeling optimistic about building his big cat empire, but back at the ranch, things are bad. The conditions the animals are kept in are substandard.

There are monkeys playing with cheap children's toys, the horror. Bears are sitting in their own waste. Neglected tigers prowling around in stagnant rainwater. And perhaps Joe is too quick to jump into passion projects and too slow to learn how to actually do them properly. To save money, Joe hires whomever he can get, including a 19-year-old who becomes his new love interest. Now you may be wondering, but wait, doesn't Joe already have a boyfriend? Well, JC, that promoter who sparked Joe's touring career,

yeah, things don't work out between them. There's too much Joe to go around, Ed. There's, shall we say, some tension there, probably from when Joe threatened to feed JC to a tiger named Goliath. Oh, hey, he's using what he's got. You know that you're going to get sent to one of the tigers. That's kind of like why you're there. And things literally come to a head when JC threatens to shoot Joe in the head. So the police are called and the relationship, it's donezo. Now, sidebar,

JC eventually ends up in prison for murder. Oh Jesus, so that was real! Chaotic. Well, by 2004, GW Park is becoming less a sanctuary for abandoned animals and more akin to the island of Dr. Moreau. Besides breeding and selling lion-tiger hybrids, which he shouldn't be doing, Joe openly talks about his goal of breeding a new version of the saber-toothed tiger. You know, the extinct giant cat? Yeah. I mean, he can barely do regular tigers.

I have a dream and nothing would make me happier than four sabre-toothed tigers corn-hodling each other in a field, sunshine, me there with a nice Arnold Palmer. Love and life. That's my dream. Well, unsurprisingly, PETA starts paying close attention to Joe and authorities lob hefty fines at GW Park, unfortunately to no effect. Oh, why not? Oh, yeah. Absolutely not. Because he's a piece of paper. Yeah, what are you going to do? All right, he's a piece of paper. What's a piece of paper going? Alright, he's a piece of, what's a piece of paper gonna do?

It gon' gain between me, my love, my love of the animal kingdom. I do not have this money. That's the ultimate, it's amazing. It's an amazing defense. Have you ever tried it? Have you ever just like, literally, have you ever just called the company and just said, sorry, I have nothing. I did that, I've done it several times.

It's refreshing. Yeah. I had one time I lost done it several times. It's refreshing. I had one time I lost my health insurance because they said that I was like someone pretending to be an American citizen. And I was the biggest baby born in Florida. And like, so there was like, there were like newspaper articles about my birth.

And so I was just like, I am a famous baby. Do not, do not, do not question. You are racing, you're racing my entire standing. That's so funny. Well, in 2004, Joe's escapades are also written up in a local newspaper called the Oklahoma in this article. It also introduces us to none other than Carol Baskin or Carol Lewis as she's still called. That bitch! That damn bitch! Sorry, I can't even say the name without being that bitch, Carol Baskin.

Yeah. Now, for those of you who were living under a rock in 2020, Carol owns her own sanctuary known as Big Cat Rescue in Tampa. And she takes a big bite out of Joe's reputation. She publicly accuses Joe of breeding and selling wild animals and encouraging abuse in the industry. In short, Kitty's got claws. Kitty's also correct. Yes. So Joe takes notice, but can he tame Carol or will she eat him for breakfast? Or maybe an animal criminal also knows an animal criminal by sight. But she saves the cats and sells them to people.

So why does Carol decide to take Joe on? Well, maybe it's because they have a lot in common. Carol is another quirky animal lover who loves dressing up and has a weird sense of what's right and wrong when it comes to running a sanctuary. Here's a very classic picture of Carol. Oh, she's beautiful. She looks like if Bam Bam wanted to talk to the manager. He's a Florida angel. Yes.

Yes. That's her brand. Now, although Carol's facilities have generally been better, she does make some wacky decisions at the start of her career as well. At one point, she and her first husband, Don Lewis, would come to own over 200 big cats. They even breed a few big cats, some by accident. But instead of promoting a magic show like Joe, they opened a bed and breakfast called Wildlife on Easy Street where patrons drop 75 bucks in 90s money to sleep in the same room as a big cat of their choosing.

What am I going to do? What's that thing going to do? It's going to play with my pink body all night? But if it's a baby one, I'd sleep next to a baby one. I just don't think you can. I feel like unless you're doing it in the jungle. Yes. For your own safety. In a tree. I feel like you have to be in a tree. And they are protecting you for some reason. If you're mogli, you can sleep with the cats. But if you're not, if you're anything below mogli, just don't. Carol's rationale is if people get to cuddle with these majestic animals, they might gain an appreciation for them and realize that private big cat ownership

is not ethical. It makes no sense. She's making them sleep with them. You spend one night. Look how easy it is. You spend one night in our awareness cell with this lovely tiger. You will see that the awareness brought to you by this tiger will show you that you cannot have it. Yeah. Now, to be fair, folks who spend a night at Wildlife do think that it's well-maintained,

the enclosures are nice, and the cats are well-fed, so at least she's got that going for her. It is a big contrast to Joe's establishment anyway. And reportedly, nobody gets hurt at the bed and breakfast, although everyone does need to sign a waiver. She's a missing husband, right? That everyone thinks that she fed the cats. Yeah, yeah, definitely. Carol wakes up one day and realizes that rather than protecting cats, people who spend a night at her B&B probably continue to think that big cats are cool and that her premise is definitely faulty. So around 2003, she ditches the B&B premise, rebrands wildlife as Big Cat Rescue, and becomes a huge critic of other roadside zoos like the one Joe Exotic has built. Yeah.

This is smart. Yeah. This is smart. Yeah. Smart. There she goes. Now, when she takes her first swing by calling Joe out in a local print interview, he pays her little mind. So Joe tours with his exploitative

and inappropriate show. He sells bizarre branded merch like skincare, wine and condoms. Yeah. He really goes around. He does. He even posts videos of sick animals to get sympathy donations. The problem is, the park's food costs are astronomical.

Just the 200 big cats by themselves scarf down half a million dollars a year worth of meat. Now, to feed the more prized cats, Joe's workers sometimes slaughter less valuable horses, cows, and goats that live in the park. He even has his staff drive a truck to and from grocery stores to gather expired food for the animals. But the staff, some of whom are homeless or addicted to drugs, are so broke they often eat some of that expired food themselves. Oh, I remember that. We were all from Walmart when grabbed all the shit out of the meat. So by 2006, it's getting harder and harder to hide the fact that Joe's Park is a total mess. Like literally the cages are filthy.

This is despite the fact that the park now rakes in about half a million dollars from sales and donations. So we're talking about breaking even here. Thankfully, the USDA suspends Joe's exhibitor's license. And then, PETA enters the chat and does their usual shtick. They secretly film the zoo, get some crew members to say incriminating stuff about Joe's breeding practices, and seemingly start trying to publicly shame Joe. But as we know, Joe's pretty hard to shame.

Yes. That's his superpower. That is his superpower. He just threatens to shoot those petawimps, dubs himself the Tiger King, and expands his empire, opening a themed boozy joint called Safari Bar and a pizza restaurant called Zooters. Yeah, Zooters! Yeah, I forgot it was called Zooters! He's put the tigers in tiny shorts and breast implants. Yeah, they really need a, they need a show some leg.

Alright flirt with them. Make them feel at home. Yeah, you're right on the money. It's definitely Hooters, but zoo themed. I want tiny shorts that really emphasize the box. Yeah there's nothing like eating a pizza next to a hungry tiger. So let's actually watch Joe's DIY commercial for Zudas Pizzeria spelled with an A instead of an E.

Ladies and gentlemen, if you like pizza, pasta, or chicken alfredo, I can promise you, Zudas is the place you want to stop. It's right in front of the Greater Windowood Exotic Animal Park. You don't have to enter the zoo to sit down and have some of the world's famous pizza, a cold beer, something else to drink and sit down in an atmosphere next to tigers that you have never experienced anywhere in the world. They're right out of Napoli. Yeah, some good old fashioned Naples, Oklahoma.

This came all the way from Tuscany, Arkansas. Some of the most delicious pepperoni we ever had. Yes, that is pepperoni made out of dough. Yes. And just like you were saying earlier, these ingredients absolutely are the expired food from Walmart. Oh, they would go buy pizzas and then put stuff on the dumb pizza and then redo it like it was a front. Well, as charismatic and interesting as Joe might be to folks who watch his videos on the internet or have followed his journey, he's clearly not a great guy.

And the more he tries to paint himself as the hero or victim or whatever else, the more people catch on and get tired of the narcissism. Carol, she's still honing in on Joe and identifying his weak points. Maybe she can do everyone a favor and take this guy out, metaphorically speaking, of course. She starts using social media to dox Joe, asking her followers to complain to venues where he performs. And to counter, Joe just keeps changing the name of his show and touring company. It's the smartest thing to do, literally. She does still manage to get some of his shows canceled.

A small victory. But Joe is, by this point, apparently insane. Carol starts receiving email death threats. saying. Carol starts receiving email death threats and then one day she opens her physical mailbox and do you remember what she finds in there? Snakes. Oh, that's right. Full of snakes. God, that's awesome. Yeah. That's right. Yeah. Now, Carol, she's not scared of making an enemy of Joe. She's got plenty of enemies. The business of taking down sham animal sanctuaries doesn't make you a lot of friends. And meanwhile, Joe denies he's behind the physical threats. But he also proudly flaunts his hatred for Carol by dressing up like a giant rabbit and

showing up at Big Cat Rescue to pester her. Yes, yes, which is hilarious, but also dangerous. He's got to be careful. He's still around giant cats. It's like the opposite of Bugs Bunny. When Bugs Bunny would dress like a lady, you know, he dressed like Bugs Bunny. Yeah, now this little stun it doesn't fluster Carol. Nothing really seems to we are dealing with two very strong-willed individuals. But then, in 2011, Joe gets a bright idea. If his animal sanctuary is besmirched, he'll just rebrand. As Carol's Sanctuary, Joe renames his show Big Cat Rescue Entertainment and starts touring

with a new logo. It's just an image taken from Carol's website. Stealing a nonprofit's identity is just another one of those things that seems perfectly reasonable for Joe and completely wackadoo for probably everyone else. But do you think Carol will take notice? Like, yeah, she was like, don't fuck with me. Yeah. I've already killed one man. Joe Exotic. And I loved him. I loved him and I kind of liked him.

Yes, Carol definitely takes notice. Suddenly, folks think Carol's responsible for Joe's exploitative Baby Tiger act. They email her asking how she could stoop so low. Oh, sure. They'll fold now. Now I see. Now I'm her. She's me. Can't come after me if you're you. But you think you're me. Right. Because now I'm you.

It is very Bugs Bunny. It is. Meanwhile, Carol, she's still her usual cool cucumber self, she knows exactly what to do. In three separate lawsuits, she accuses Joe of copyright and trademark infringement. How do you think he responds? Doubling down! Oh, of course. Well, Joe takes a multi-pronged approach. He sues back, seeking a ridiculous $15 million

for libel and slander. Well, he also tries to raise his own profile to strike it rich. Joe thinks drumming up attention and getting famous will fix all, if not most, of his problems. If he can sell a reality TV show, his antics will be rewarded and Carol will be so jealous. So Joe starts posting on YouTube like crazy and invites film crews to follow him around to help pitch the show.

He even stages a zoo themed wedding for him, his troubled on again off again lover, John, and a new hot young thing named Travis. You heard right. It's a polygamous wedding. Yeah, there's just not enough. Joe must be shared. Yes. You know it's a lot of, he's a lot of husband.

And then Joe realizes he could really hurt Carol, maybe even put her behind bars. You see, Carol has a deep dark secret. Maybe. Her husband, the one with whom she started her Big Cat Bed and Breakfast, Don Lewis, has disappeared all the way back in 1997. But by 2002, he was declared dead by absentia. And that's about the time Carol turned activist and foe to Joe Exotic. Now, the whereabouts of Don Lewis, or what exactly happened to him, are still unknown to this day. That bitch killed Don Lewis. I know that she did. I know she did. His ghost told me. And then we made sweet love.

And we made sweet, sweet love. Now, theories and claims include that he was killed by his business manager, that he crashed and burned in his private plane, or that he actually is alive and well living his best life in Costa Rica. And of course, the juiciest gossip is that Carol, she killed him and fed Don's remains to tigers. Well, whatever the actual truth is, there's only one theory that is absolute catnip for Joe Exotic, and that is that Carol Baskin is indeed a murderer. So Joe really thinks he's onto something that might actually hurt Carole. Even Don

Lewis' kids suspect foul play and authorities keep trying to solve the mystery of Don's disappearance. It's just they don't. Neither Carole nor Don's business manager have been charged with killing him and Carole continues her mission of making life hell for Joe and his sort. So Joe's luck is running out. His legal mistakes start catching up to him. In 2013, Joe loses the trademark infringement lawsuit to Carol and is ordered to pay her $1 million. Carol and is ordered to pay her one million dollars. He's also forced to drop his frivolous counter suit, but we all know that Joe's wily. Carol can have that money over his dead freaking body. Joe changes his legal name from Shrevevogal to Maldonado, which is Travis's last name.

Oh, that's what it is. He also transfers ownership of his park to a rich friend and business partner named Jeff Lowe. Now, again, all of this is just generosity. And he absolutely loves his husband. That's why he's taking his name. He's not trying to hide his identity. Yeah.

He is moving his business to a better place. Yeah, and more reputable person who does nothing wrong and is just a good man. Yeah. I mean, and then while Jeff runs the park, Joe goes back to the thing he truly loves touring and making money. Tell me about it. He still files for bankruptcy. Anything to avoid paying Carol. Yeah, I mean, Joe just hasn't figured out

that Carol is smarter than him. She hires private investigators to follow the money and discovers Joe's family owns a nice chunk of land in Kansas. Now, his siblings have a bone to pick with Joe for being wrapped up in his crazy shenanigans. His staff is also in constant revolt, tired of being underpaid and overstretched, and at least one of Joe's staff is mauled by a tiger. And John, one of Joe's husbands?

He gets so fed up with Joe, he physically attacks him, leading to an assault and battery charge. John was never convicted. Even Joe's dreams of becoming a TV star go up in flames. This is quite literal. After a dispute over some footage that could land Joe in jail, his studio, which also doubles as an alligator compound, burns to the ground. The animals and footage are destroyed and everyone starts pointing the finger.

Whether Joe did this to protect himself or if it's an act of revenge by one of his staff, it's unclear. But now Joe is broke, his relationships are all strained, and he's spiraling mentally. An alligator compound's got to be covered in water. It does. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's got to be hard to burn down. I think it's extremely hard to burn down.

Seems like it was unfair. Seems like it was. The only thing left to keep Joe going is his searing hot hatred of Carol, and he does nothing to conceal it. Let's watch his unhinged video message to Carol and company. Wanna know why Carol Baskin better never ever ever see me face to face ever ever ever again? That is how sick and tired of this shit I am. I mean that's prison right there, right? You know, he's trying to be. He's a he's a showman.

Very much so. He's a show. Too much of a showman. Yeah, this does not help Joe's case. But it does scare Carol. Now she thinks that he's not just all talk. He might actually try to get her killed. And she's absolutely correct. Joe has a taste for blood, and he doesn't hide the fact that his life would be better if Carol was six feet under. So lest we forget, this story is upsetting. On October 7th of 2017, on the 30th anniversary of the death of Joe's brother, his husband Travis, while playing with a gun Joe bought him as a present, accidentally

shoots himself and dies. Dude, and when I remember seeing that, when they showed that on the fucking show, I was like, holy shit. Yeah. It's like, this just happened. I was like, that just happened? Yeah. Like, yeah, he's, again, a lot of chaos surrounds him.

Joe doesn't find out until he returns from a trip, and needless to say, he's despondent. After the funeral, in one of the most egregious acts imaginable, he shoots five aging tigers to make room for other big cats. Yeah, he's a bad... This is when he's really bad. Yeah. It's bad now. And then he asks one of his park employees to kill Carol via voicemail.

So this employee, he doesn't take Joe up on the offer. So Joe has to find somebody else. He asks a new employee named Alan to do it who has a teardrop tattoo. So Joe figures Alan's already killed somebody. He's perfect. You already got the mark, right? And he's just like, no, I'm just the saddest man who's ever lived. I'm a big Eeyore fan. I wish I had the energy to kill someone.

Well, Joe even pays this dude some money around three to $5,000 and gets him a fake ID. And Joe promises a few thousand more once the deed is done and the Dame is dead. But it doesn't work out because Alan hates Joe. So he just takes the money he's given and runs away to Georgia, spending it on partying. Yay! Of course! Yeah, Alan!

And how much more fun is it to be drinking being like like, this is money I was supposed to use to kill a woman? Is that illegal? Remember when I said that Joe is dumber than Carol? Well, that murder request voicemail was forwarded to Carol, who then tipped off the FBI. Oh my god. Yeah, I just see it with the big eyes. Yeah. So now at this point, that's probably not even necessary because Joe is

already under investigation for animal cruelty. And the special agent on the case is well aware that Joe wants to put a hit out on Carol. I mean, everyone is aware. But oddly, now that Carol is finally off her guard, Joe actually loses interest for a while. I mean, he's out of cash, he's out of steam, nothing he's tried seems to accomplish his goal of unaliving Carol. This all is, until Joe brings a dude named Mark to the park. Mark apparently is a bonafide hitman, just like in the movies. So for a second, Joe is hopeful. But Mark is with the FBI. And Joe's friend is wearing a wire. Yes, very much so. So how you want me to shoot her is like, I want you to shoot her four times.

I want to shoot her until she's dead. I'm gonna assume it's her state. Yeah, Joe eventually figures this all out about three months later, but not before officially hitting rock bottom. Jeff, the new owner of the park, had been fed up with Joe's antics for a while and realizes a little too late that the park is a money pit. The two have a huge fight and Joe absconds to Florida with four dogs, his new bow, and a camel. A camel.

That's hard to get to Florida. Wow, honestly, yeah. I mean, you know, that's probably why they changed all the policies on Delta. Yeah. Hard for it to get there. It's my emotional support camel. Yeah.

Now, it's not that bad, actually. Joe makes a little money washing dishes at a pirate-themed bar called Peg Leg Pizza and freelancing for a catering company. But his new life doesn't last very long. On his way to a job interview at a hospital — hopefully something more stable than bartending and working back of house — Joe is surrounded by cops and taken into custody. At the arraignment, he learns that Carole had bested him once again and that his friend had sold him out. In April of 2020, just a few weeks before the world discovers him on Netflix, Joe is convicted

on two counts of murder for hire and killing those five tigers in his park. He is sentenced to 22 years in prison. And he was so sad that Donald Trump didn't pardon him. Well, Trump's last day in office last time, he had rented a limousine to pick him up. He was so sure that Trump was going to pardon him. He had rented a limousine. It was my favorite and he's waiting and the guys outside said, I can wait another eight minutes. One other thing that I thought was really interesting was he got those 22 years in prison,

but then just a year later, Joe's sentence was overturned on appeal. Yes. Yes. And then the court rules that he should have only been charged with one murder-for-hire attempt instead of two since it's all in service of just killing one person. I mean, isn't the law fascinating? So they only overturn his sentencing, not the conviction, and in the end, the new sentence ends up just one year shorter. Yes! Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Let's do a little, where are they now? Yes, Joe Exotic is still in prison. He's trying all sorts of angles to break free and or make money. He is still selling that branded merch, if anybody's interested. For example, his new skincare line includes a two ounce bottle of hair oil for just under $32.

He has mange! Yeah. Yeah. It's not the oil's fault. That's the fleas' fault. First ever person with mange to sell skin care products. Yes. Yes. He did just also pen a letter to the newly re-elected Donald

Trump demanding a pardon. He also pitched himself for the cabinet as federal fish and wildlife director. I mean, honestly, he'd fit right in. That's why I think he could do it from jail. I don't think he needs to be pardoned to do it, which is also amazing. I mean, and Carol is basically the Hillary of the wildlife world. So... Yes, yes.

Speaking of Carol, she got a little heat from the Netflix fame. In 2020, she was on three weeks of Dancing with the Stars. I remember when she did Eye of the Tiger, she danced to that. In 2021, she had a mini-series on Discovery about hunting down animal abusers. In 2022, Carol successfully lobbied for the passage of the Big Cat Safety Act signed by

Joe Biden. The law puts heavy restrictions on ownership and breeding of big cats. People say you did nothing. Yeah, people say you did nothing. You didn't do anything. Unbelievable. Unbelievable. I'm going to say that. I'm going to be like, what? people say he didn't do anything. Unbelievable. Unbelievable. I'm gonna say that. I'm gonna be like,

what? Oh, he didn't do anything? Oh, have you seen a dead big cat on the street recently? Now, not all of Carol's fame is good fame. She is still dogged by the accusations surrounding her missing second husband, Don Lewis, and all the legal fallout from the Gold case. She's currently being sued for defamation by Don's former assistant because Carol implicated the assistant in Don's disappearance and Don's daughters hope this civil suit will

help them discover what really happened. The former assistant has never been charged in connection with Don's disappearance, and Carol denies the case has any merit. Now, here on The Big Flop, we try real hard to be positive people and end on a high, so are there any silver linings that you can think of that came about from Joe Exotic? He inspires people to live past the meager means that they are born into Joe Exotic. Yes. Did he reinvent himself and end up in jail cancer ridden?

Yes, but sometimes you don't and you can become your good version of Joe Exotic I think the positive of all of this is we got I mean the filmmakers are Amazing at what they do. We got they did Chimp Crazy as well after this and so they are slowly Taking out the crazy animal owners in this country. No, I think you're absolutely right though I think it did bring a lot of attention to the exotic pet trade and how evil it can be. So now that you both know about the catastrophe behind Tiger

King, would you consider this a baby flop, a big flop or a mega flop? I still feel like this is a baby flop. I think it could have gotten much worse. I think that we're lucky. It was just a couple of Tigers. I mean, it's it produced was just a couple of tigers. I mean, it's it produced one of the one of the greatest documentary series of all time.

Well, thank you so much to our hilarious guests, Ed Larson and Henry Zabrowski for joining us here on The Big Flop. And of course, thanks to all of you for listening and watching. If you're enjoying the show, please leave us a rating and review. We'll be back next week with another flop. He created some of your favorite 90s boy bands but turned out to be the worst bad boy of them all. It's music manager, Lou Pearlman. Bye. Bye, Misha! Bye, Misha! Bye!

Bye, Misha! Bye! Bye, Misha! Bye! Bye! Bye! Bye! Bye!

Bye! Bye! Bye! Bye! Bye! Bye! Bye! Bye!

Bye! Bye! Bye! Bye! Bye! or on Apple podcasts. Prime members can listen ad free on Amazon Music. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short survey at Wondery.com slash survey. The Big Flop is a production of Wondery and At Will Media, hosted by Misha Brown, produced by Sequoia Thomas, Harry Huggins, and Tina Turner, written by Anna Rubinova and Luke Burns, engineered by Zach Rapone, with support from Andrew Holzberger. The video podcast is edited by Olivia Vessel.

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and the senior managing producer is Callum Plews. Music supervisor is Scott Velasquez for Freesong Sync. Theme song is Sinking Ship by Kick. Executive producers are Lizzie Bassett, Dave Easton, and Marshall Louis for Wondering. Thanks for watching!