The Big Picture - 10 Fearless Golden Globes Predictions and the Magic of ‘Minari’

Episode Date: February 25, 2021

Sean and Amanda do the illogical: They try to predict how the Hollywood Foreign Press Association will hand out the Golden Globes on Sunday (26:39). Then, Sean talks to Lee Isaac Chung about ‘Minari,’ one of the best films of 2020, which is now finally widely available (1:08:23). Hosts: Sean Fennessey and Amanda Dobbins Guest: Lee Isaac Chung Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

I'm Sean Fennessey. I'm Amanda Dobbins. And this is The Big Picture, a conversation show about payola and awards. Later in the show, I will be joined by Lee Isaac Chung, the writer-director of one of the very best films of the 2020-2021 season, Minari. Amanda, what'd you think of Minari?

Just absolutely beautiful. Can't recommend it enough. Go see it. It's an absolutely beautiful movie. I agree. You should see it. It is available to watch on V absolutely beautiful. Can't recommend it enough. Go see it. It's an absolutely beautiful movie. I agree. You should see it. It is available to watch on VOD this weekend. Please check it out.

And please check out my conversation with Lee Isaac Chung. But first, Amanda and I will dig into the tar pit of awards season. I'm talking, of course, about the Golden Globes. It's all coming up on The Big Picture. Okay, Amanda. okay amanda the golden globes are on sunday which means we're going to be predicting the results of the awards but before we do predictions we probably need to talk about the state of the golden globes because they are in a messy state there was a piece of reporting in fact two pieces of reporting from the Los Angeles Times over the weekend, stories by Stacey Perman and Josh Rottenberg. They really

uncovered or confirmed a lot of the suspicions we had about the Hollywood Foreign Press Association. What'd you make of this blockbuster story over the weekend? What do you think it portends for this weekend's award show? Shout out to the hometown paper covering the issues. I mean, that was nice and it was well-timed and I was like grateful for many reasons. One of them being that, you know, I sometimes worry that people think when we just ruthlessly mock the Hollywood Foreign Press Association and the Golden Globes, which we do, we don't speak with a lot of respect about the organization or the awards show. But I worry that people think that it's just because we're like lazy podcasters with bad attitudes and we might be lazy podcasters with bad attitudes. But I worry that people think that it's just because we're like lazy

podcasters with bad attitudes and we might be lazy podcasters with bad attitudes. But in this case, it's because the Hollywood Foreign Press Association has been long known to be a completely disreputable like group of fraudsters essentially. And there's a lot of new, interesting information in these pieces that kind of, that confirms that what we thought was going on continues to go on. But listen, there have been reports about this for 20, 30 years at this point, the practices of just taking gifts and voting for who you like the best and only letting a certain number of people being in an award. So, you know, we'll go through all of the allegations, not new, been happening for a long time. Yeah. This seems like a piece that they had been working on for a

long time too, at the LA times, 50 plus people on the record, publicists, executive, executive, seven current members of the HFPA. So you've got people literally in the organization talking anonymously, but on the record about the things that happened with this organization. Now, on the one hand, I don't think that this is necessarily a scandal on the order of the White House, but in the playground that we swing on, this is pretty big news. It's pretty important. And the reason it's important is because the Golden Globes is frequently the second highest rated award show in America. And it's a global organization.

And it's recognizing the work of a lot of people that we talk about on a regular basis. And getting acknowledged for that work usually means you get to make more work. And you get to make more money. And it has significant ramifications for the studios that participate in a lot of this Golden Globes-ery. And so this is an interesting thing. Obviously, this piece, I think, was engineered, was powered by this antitrust lawsuit that a Norwegian journalist named,

if I'm getting her name wrong, I apologize, but it sounds like Gerdy Fla is her name. And she accused the HFPA of institutionalizing a culture of corruption, claiming that the tax exempt organization operated as kind of a cartel, barring qualified applicants, including herself, and monopolizing all important press access while improperly subsidizing its members' income, as you say, essentially taking gifts, taking side benefits, perhaps trips to places that are related to the productions of certain TV shows and movies. As you point out here, though, these charges are not new. Yes, I quoted in our outline a piece from 1996 by Sharon Waxman, an industry journalist who has kind of been on the HFPA's case for, I don't know, 25 years now.

I hope that math. Yes, that math is right. And I'm just quoting from her Washington Post piece in 1996. The HFPA accepts no more than five new members annually, and any member can veto a newcomer's application in voting done by secret ballot. So perhaps the rules of how many people they let in and out have changed since 1996. But this idea that one, they're just a small group of people blocking new entry, still the same 25 years later. I think when you talk about the Globes and the HFPA, it's a bit of a wrung out cliche to describe them as a shadowy cabal, but frankly, they are a shadowy cabal. And it's pieces like this that are kind of you know clarifying or even exposing the identity of certain members who are theoretically international journalists living in the united

states and representing foreign countries some of these people are journalists some of them are beauty queens some of them are actors and producers and writers and that is a bit confusing because the organization seems to be some sort of critical journalistic organization. It's not really that. It's not. Most of these individuals are not critics. And I'm just going to read the qualifications for being a member of the HFPA before you make it to the application where you get rejected by the shadowy cabal. You have to have published six pieces in a year and attended 25 of the news conferences. Six pieces in one year. Listen, writing's really hard and that's why I don't

do it anymore, but that does not a full-time journalist make. No, it doesn't. And many of these people are not journalists. I think in addition to the confusion around the identity of some of these people and their qualifications, one of the things that was revealed in the reporting is that there's just a serious lack of diversity among the folks here. There are a significant number of people of color, but there are no black members of the HFPA. And obviously, there has been a lot of suspicion and confusion and accusations around the failure to acknowledge many of the films this year in their drama category and the fact that there are so many black-led films that are otherwise competing at the other award shows and seem to be notably absent from the nominations at this award show.

Fairly easy to draw some conclusions there about why that is. In addition to that, this is an accusation that was also levied against the Academy for a number of years, which is that, you know, in pre-Oscars So White, there was a lot of conversation around, is this a bunch of people who haven't made movies in a long time and are in their 80s and are just voting on basically their generation's taste? And is that dictating what the Oscars are? Now, the Academy has gone to great lengths to expand and diversify their voting body. There are now over 8,000 people in the Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences. There are 87 people in the HFPA. And why would you leave the HFPA if you didn't have to? You probably would stay in until you die. It's not unlike the Supreme Court in many ways. And there's a lot of benefit to being a part of a group like this. It seems like

a cush life. And the story, I think, really unpacks how it can be a cush life for these people. But it reveals that it's not ever going to be a progressive organization if it continues to harbor 87-year-old people that are attending film screenings and falling asleep all the time, which this story outlines. It's interesting. Yeah. And there are the funny parts of it and there are the less funny parts of it. One thing that's not mentioned in the story and that I have some, I don't have any particular knowledge to, but my husband, who is a journalist at GQ, reported at length was a story that Brendan Fraser shared with him in GQ during a profile. And it was about an incident at a Golden Globes lunch. And Brendan Fraser

said that he was groped by a former president of the Hollywood Foreign Press Association whose name is Philip Burke. And at the time, Burke maintained that it was a joke. And when he was contacted by GQ, he maintains that it's a joke. But I would encourage people to read Brendan Fraser's accounting of that experience. And then I would encourage people to read Brendan Fraser's accounting of that experience. And then I would encourage people to see how Philip Burke responded to it and how the Hollywood Foreign Press Association responded to it. It's just indicative of the culture and the priorities of this organization and what they take seriously.

And it's not particularly flattering. So why is the HFPA and the Golden Globes still so valuable and powerful and protected and well-known? I think it's a question. It's frankly a question that I hear all the time just when people want to talk about movies. Why do you guys spend time on the Golden Globes? Why is this important?

Aside from the sort of, you know, the money aspect that I'm talking about and the relationship that the studios have to these quote-unquote foreign journalists. This is a highly rated show. This is one of NBC's biggest shows of the year on a frequent basis. And frankly, in reading this piece, one of the things that really jumped out to me, Amanda, was that the ratings for this show have not dipped nearly as much as many other award shows. And that the gap between the ratings and the Oscars is kind of closing with the Globes. It's still averaging between around 18 to 20 million people checking

it out. Now, there are probably a number of different reasons for that. I think one of them is this is really the only award show that recognizes both film and television. And as we've been talking about over the last couple of years, the gap is kind of shrinking between those two things as products, as experiences across the board. And so people are as interested in seeing an award show that features both Emily in Paris and One Night in Miami at the same time. So I think that that is one part. I think another part is it's a loose and convivial affair. We talk about it. There's a lot of drinking. The celebrity spotting is fun. It's eithericky gervais or as the host who is maybe

going to say something outrageous or amy puller and tina fey which tends to have a kind of fun and freewheeling late night party appeal to people watching the show but i don't were you as surprised as i was to see just some of the kind of specific details about how this this award show has maintained some primacy in the space no because that because that's its branding. And I think that that is how the Hollywood Foreign Press Association and NBC and all the studios get to keep gliding on it, is that it's the fun show. Everybody sits at tables. You look at the reactions. I mean, I've said that a million times and I do enjoy the broadcast. Usually I think it is more entertaining than the Oscars in part because it just has a lot more famous

people and has famous people of TV and movies. And, you know, they don't they don't have any technical categories at the Golden Globes. And I think that's a shame. And I think they should show all of those at the Oscars. But it's meant to be breezy and they lean into that. And it also then tends to cover all manner of sins in terms of taking anything seriously. Yeah. In this report, it's revealed that last fiscal year, the organization pulled in $27.4 million from NBC up from $3.64 million in 2016-17,

according to a budget document. So there's a lot of money on the line here too. The know, the HFPA is technically a nonprofit, but it's also got $50 million sitting in the bank on hand. So there's big, big money attached to this. Right. And it's also not super clear to me, even after having read all of this, what they do with that money, except pay their members for watching TV and movies and other services rendered. We know that the Academy is building a giant museum, which I make jokes about, but at least it's going to be a museum open to the public about film history. And they do a lot of film history work. And the Hollywood Foreign Press Association has made more of an effort in recent years

to donate to charity or to publicize those efforts of donating to charity. But, you know, the amounts listed, I believe they gave away $5 million last year. So what's the rest of the money doing? I don't know. I don't think that they need to necessarily tell us specifically. But because of all of the suspicions that are raised in this piece and all of the information that is shared, people are concerned about where that money is going. Is it going to kickbacks? Is it going to fringe benefits?

I'm sure in some respects it is. It's hard to know. We know specifically, though, from some of the reporting in this piece that, for example, some of the members were treated to a plush experience on the set of Emily in Paris. And that may or may not have contributed to the nominations for the film or TV series, Emily in Paris at the expense of shows like, say, I May Destroy You. And that was, you know, we didn't talk about that very much on this show because we don't really talk about TV that much. But that one in particular seemed to jump out to the entertainment reporting industry

at large as like profoundly stupid. So much so that an Emily in Paris writer wrote an essay being like, what's going on? Why wasn't this show nominated? And the answer might be because 30 plus members of the HFPA, not like three or four, 30 plus members got a free trip to Paris and they got put up at the Peninsula Hotel, which is a very nice hotel and also shows up in all the stories of people doing things

that they shouldn't be doing. So maybe don't stay at the Peninsula Hotel anymore, I guess, or warning sign. But 30 people. It's a lot. It's not great. You know, there was some news

this morning as well about the shrinking window for movie releases that is coming to Paramount. So Paramount Plus is launching next month. That means with it, there's going to be a raft of new shows, a lot of new IP, and also news that there is now a 45-day window from theatrical release to the appearance on Paramount Plus of some big movies that we've talked about anticipating, Quiet Place 2, Top Gun Maverick.

And this is one more sign, obviously, that all of these things are converging on each other, you know, that basically everything is kind of television. And so as we talk about the Oscars, and as we prepare for another award season here, the Golden Globes, despite some of these complexities, despite some of these missteps, is weirdly in a better position than the Oscars is long-term to be the award show. Now, obviously, many people who watch it consider it a joke or not that big of a deal, but sometimes the Oscars is a joke too. I think it's really just about what is it that people want to see? What famous people do they want to see, as you said? What shows do they love? Do they want to see celebrated? All of this stuff is kind of interconnected here, and so it's an interesting turning point for the Globes.

Yeah, it's a tricky spot for them for many reasons, including the fact that people are writing investigative reports on them. But on the one hand, I don't believe that they're going to be able to have, I mean, people in the room in the way that they normally have people in the room. So that central appeal of like, oh, MG, like Meryl Streep is, you know, going to wave at Tom Hanks and then, you know, we'll see all our famous people meeting each other and taking selfies. That doesn't seem like that'll be happening in the same way. And so if you lose the appeal, is the show like as essential to watch? I mean, you and I will watch it, but will other people really care that much?

We'll see. And does that have a knockdown effect in years to come? We'll also see. On the other hand, it's a very confusing time for movies. People don't know what movies they're supposed to see. They don't know how to see movies. And I was reflecting on, from an Oscar standpoint,

I think the Golden Globes has more power this year than ever before, just because no one else is doing the sorting. So that's troubling for a number of reasons, chief among them that we don't like the nominations very much. Well, I think that, yeah, I think you make a really great point there. So specifically, I've probably been somewhat misled by the results of the Golden Globes in terms of how they reflect on the Oscar results in the past. I certainly felt like watching 1917 take a best drama Golden Globe last year would be

more impactful. I felt like that movie was building a lot of momentum, and I thought it would win Best Picture and, of course, Parasite won, which was fantastic. So the Academy and the Globes are different. But as you say, this this year there is some confusion about really what are the movies what are the what is what are the front runners what what should Academy members be paying attention to this will be the first mainstream experience in which films are awarded like this this is happening before SAG it's happening before the Independent Spirit

Awards it's really the first major televised award show that a lot of people will be paying attention to and so the results of it could be pretty impactful so much so that you and i will go live on sunday not live but post show uh to do an episode of the big picture and talk about what happened and talk about what does it mean and we'll pretend like it means the whole world is falling or it's the whole world is on stilts and we're doing great. I don't really know. We'll see. But it does still matter to the conversation around a lot of these movies. What do you think about the show itself?

Do you think that Tina Fey and Amy Poehler will address the scandals? How do you think that like, will there be any kind of like self-awareness about where the Globes finds itself? There is a tradition of the hosts just making fun of the Hollywood foreign press on stage, most notably Ricky Gervais, which is... We can just keep this to the subject of making fun of the HFPA and not bring any of Ricky Gervais' other jokes onto the stage right now. But I believe in Tina Fey and Amy Poehler to figure out a funny way to do it.

They don't really seem scared of it. And frankly, why would Tina Fey and Amy Poehler be scared of the Hollywood Foreign Press Association? I think they've already won or lost and presumably are getting paid no matter what. Yeah, I agree. I suspect that they will take fire whether they do so without gloves on. We'll see. I'm certainly interested to to see if there is any acknowledgement at any point i think if we get a globes and we can talk

through this as we get into our predictions but if we get a globes where there are a bunch of head-scratching wins let's say see his music wins even one award oh god then i think it might get a little messy because this the stories are already out there's already this feeling like this is kind of a bomb waiting to go off i don't know what do you think so messy how like people saying that we need to like strip this thing for parts and start over again and find another award show that can take its place why aren't people saying that now like why can't can't we do that? Let's talk about it. Okay. Let's talk about it. Because you pointed out the kicker of the LA times piece, which is, um, someone in the industry saying it's just studios need it for marketing

and studios really need it for marketing now because movies are in the state that they're in and like the machine is just kind of there, and so everybody's part of it. So one obvious option is maybe actors or directors or people within the movies are like, we're not doing this anymore. Like Francis McDormand says- A boycott. Right, yes.

So I could see that happening, though it really seems unlikely to count on the major corporations that own the studios to join into that because corporations. But NBC and Dick Clark Productions also play a major role here. Now, NBC just committed to another eight years in 2018. So it seems unlikely that they're going to go shopping. But everybody could. Like, if you just put on a different awards show with the same production team, it's not really like the Hollywood Foreign Press is bringing, like, a storied history. Yeah, well, I think that it's complicated because there is no objective truth about

awards winners, obviously. What they are, they're a representation of the accumulated votes from their individual bodies. So with the Academy, as I said, there's now 8,000 people. They all work in the industry of film. They're writers, directors, producers, actors, publicists, executives, folks on below the line roles, up and down the board. And there are a lot of people that are interested in a lot of people that are voting in a lot of people that are voting. This is a very small body by comparison. Something like SAG is only actors, and it's a smaller group of people. What is the right constitution of people to make a good award

show? That, I think, is the thing that flummoxes everyone when we talk about these things. If you're interested in this stuff, should it be opinionated blowhards like me and you should it be people who are more formally trained as critics and historians of film and television should it be the people who make stuff because the people who make stuff know better about what works or should they not be the people who vote because they are compromised due to all of their relationships and frankly their understanding of how the business works. I don't know. I don't have an answer.

I don't know how to make the perfect award show. And that is why we get to a place where this shadowy cabal rises to power by essentially leaning heavily into the celeb flogging industry of celebration. And is it any worse than what the next thing could be? It probably is in some ways, but in other ways, it's not. In other ways, we get this boozy award show that's kind of fun to watch. So I think I'm obviously probably putting a little bit too much philosophical capital behind this, but it raises some questions. I just think it isn't a made up an award show. Like, and we can make up a new award show. And I think you, and I know it's hard.

And I know there've been like too many commercials with people being like golden globe nominees. So-and-so, which I just cringe every time. It's so embarrassing. Like that is reason enough to make up a new one. So all of these people don't have to go around as being like, yes.

And I'm a golden globe nominee in there, like sad trailer, but you can separate the production of a good award show from the people People don't have to go around as being like, yes, and I'm a Golden Globe nominee in their like sad trailer. But you can separate the production of a good awards show from the people who are voting on the awards. In fact, people, you know, do that all the time. So let someone fun produce it. Let it be really celeb and like boozy and just let different people vote. And we can just I don't know. We can just I don't want to vote because then I can't make fun of it, you knowzy and just let different people vote. And we can decide, I don't know, we can decide.

I don't want to vote because then I can't make fun of it, you know? And that's like really important to be able to make fun of it always. But there are a lot of people who do want to vote. Maybe you do all the guilds. Maybe you, maybe you do like a combination of all the critics. I know there is the critics choice awards, which doesn't have the production values that the golden globes does. And also still kind of like those nominations just felt like we're honoring everything this year. So that's funny that you mentioned that. I was thinking

about the Critics' Choice Awards too. It's a little bit difficult to comp them because as you say, eight or nine people could be nominated in a category for the Critics' Choice. However, the winners of the Critics' Choice Awards do sometimes effectively predict where the Oscars are going. So it's not to be discounted. I wonder, is there just a way to... Let's say we were building the Amandys. This was Amanda Dobbins' award show. Really bad name. My mother almost didn't name me Amanda for fear that people would call me Mandy. So no disrespect to all the Mandys out there, but it's just not what my mom wanted for me. What was number two on the name list? Lucinda.

Oh, that's a nice name. That's a great Southern Belle name. Yeah, and then Lucy would have been the nickname. Oh, I like that. It's a family name as well. Me too, actually. Sometimes I'm like, maybe that should have been my path, but here I am.

No, you've got a big Amanda energy. Okay, I don't know what that means. Until Amanda Gorman, it was like not a cool name. And thank you, Amanda Gorman, for saving all of us. Who is Amanda Gorman? I have no idea who that is. The poet at the inauguration. Oh, of course.

Yeah. I thought you meant like 25 years ago, someone named Amanda Gorman made it cool. No, I mean like my whole life. Two weeks ago. Yeah. And my whole life, it's like not been like there are a lot of Bachelor contestants named Amanda. And then thank you, Amanda Gorman, for like number one for your poetry and like tremendous vision and then also number two I seriously thought you were talking about somebody

you like went to kindergarten with who made you feel safe to be named Amanda um okay well I don't know what the answer is yeah I'm just trying to think is there a universe in which um critics and historians could meaningfully coexist with people who make this stuff to choose. You know, like, what is the, what is like the, you know,

the Baseball Hall of Fame is a nightmare as well. Our producer, Bobby Wagner, can attest to that as well. But effectively what they do is they have a series of journalists vote on who should get in

and they're, based on a percentage vote, that's how they determine who enters the hall. And then there's also a Veterans association that puts people in after they have kind of moved past the expiration date for eligibility. And then they can still be voted in by the veterans who are former players, managers,

people in the game. And it's interesting. I mean, it's like, that's imagine combining both of those organizations to vote for who gets into the hall of fame. Could we do something like that for the Oscars? Maybe not the Oscars because of its long history,

but should the Globes be replaced by something that does that? I think it's an interesting idea. You can still have everyone sit at round tables and consume whatever they want and take selfies with each other at commercial breaks. Yeah, and no sloth-like podcasters and critics like us will be invited to the party only the famous people get invited to the party we'll still keep it

glitzy and fun and funny right but maybe it'll have a little more taste you know maybe a touch more refined and like the voters don't get free watches in order to vote well i would like a free watch i'm not okay no you don't want a free watch you can't say that well you don't want a free watch you have some principles left and it's you can have a free watch but maybe you're not but not in relation what kind of watch someone what kind of i don't know zach just got into watches and that's just like a you know my life savings are done so that's okay i'm not for i'm not for sale i'm just putting that out. I'm not for, I'm not for sale. I'm just putting that out there. I'm not for sale unless you,

uh, come across a Rolex Submariner, you know, that you think has my name on it. And then maybe we'll talk. I don't know what that is. I just stopped listening. Um,

let's do predictions because this is stupid, but also kind of fun. And I think that a lot of the nominations this year are weird, but I think some of them are also going to be predictive for the award show that we really care about, which is the Oscars. So let's take a quick break. And then when we come back,

we will do predicts. Okay. We're back. I'm going kind of least interesting to most interesting or least powerful to least powerful to least powerful in terms of the categories here as we step through you. It's so rude to music. Well, I mean, does anyone remember ever

like an interesting award for best original score or best original song at the Golden Globes? Can you think of a moment where that mattered? No, absolutely not. But also I just just music is important and also you you want to start with saying that on podcasts you literally just keep saying music is important i think i heard you say that on a podcast today tv concierge yeah it's so nice can i just say something you're the only person who listens to any other podcast that i'm on that's really nice john thank you talking about you You have many fans, Amanda.

I know, but like no one in my life. But you, I did notice myself recycling that. And then that's really nice that you caught it. That just means a lot to me. Thank you. But here's the other thing. I don't want to like ruin this beautiful moment that you just shared

because there's so few and far between between you and I on this show. But it's literally my job. Yeah, I know. You do it for work, but just let me feel... Amanda, we love you. We love you, Amanda. And we love your thoughts, but please stop recycling them on this podcast, okay? Now I don't believe you. And you've put score as the least important thing here. We could have inverted those. That's just an oversight. Because I just want to say that original song is by far and away the least important category. I agree with you. That was

just a clerical error on my part. Best original song, let's talk about it first. Here are the five nominees. Fight For You from Judas and the Black Messiah, Hear My Voice, The Trial of Chicago 7, See From the Life Ahead, Speak Now for One Night in Miami, and Tigress and Tweed from The United States vs versus Billie Holiday. Just going to be really, really super 100% real. I could not hum any of these songs. I don't even know if I have heard all of these songs all the way through. I definitely haven't because unlike you, I sometimes don't do my job and I definitely don't do my job when it involves listening to these weird songs. It seems as though Speak Now is the leader in the clubhouse, according to the punditry.

Now, we can make some wild and interesting choices in other categories here. I don't really feel the need to make an interesting choice in this category because it seems kind of bleak. And it does feel as though it is representing what you pointed out a couple of weeks ago when we talked about the nominations, which is just like the tacked on closing song. There are a lot of beautiful songs in the United states versus billy holiday there's songs sung by andre day originally performed by billy holiday those songs are not eligible for this award likewise one night in miami if you'd like to hear uh leslie odom jr sing sam cook's a change is going to come you can see it in the movie but the other song is okay

it's fine um i think this is gonna win just because it is performed by leslie odom jr and so they're giving him this award because i don't think that they're gonna give him the other award for which he is nominated yeah i agree with you so speak now we're both going with that do you want to do you want to come to consensus here do you want to split our votes as we talk through for the next bit? Oh, I thought that we would each pick so that then we could have a tally. Though being able to predict the minds of these 87 people is not really a victory. So that's a separate thing. But we need to make up some entertainment for ourselves and others.

I think we're going to have more consensus than we'd like, unfortunately. But let's keep rolling. Best original score. The Midnight Sky. Tenet. News of the World. Manc and Soul. Manc and Soul, of course,

are paired because they are both Trent Reznor and Atticus Ross. I mean, they're nominated individually, so they could win for Manc or they could win for Soul. Yes, that's right. Although if you're them, you're like,

I got a two out of five shot. Yeah. This is, they must be feeling good. Now, on the one hand, you can make the case that these 87 HFPA members might split the vote. Maybe some of them are, you know, Fincher heads like me. Maybe some of them are really into Pixar. You know, maybe they're into the work of Ludwig Göransson and his throbbing score for Tenet. Okay, I doubt it, but continue.

I think that Trinaticus are going to win and I think they're going to win for Soul. So do I. Yeah. Soul, I think, more closely approximates a modern flair for original composition in film music. So it's also a very approachable movie.

It's a very likable movie. I was going to say, I don't really think they're thinking about it that hard. I just think that the double nomination suggests that Trent Reznor and Atticus Ross are on their minds, and Soul is the more accessible, obvious choice. Also, and this is not to denigrate Trent Reznor by any means, but he is the most famous person that is nominated in this category. And him winning, obviously, would be cool. He's won an Oscar before. I believe he's won a Golden Globe before as well. He's probably going to win another Oscar for one of these two films, which one I don't

know. I would argue that maybe the Mank work is even more impressive because he is both recreating and modernizing a historical film score style. But nevertheless, let's go to best picture foreign language a controversial category because in this category we find the movie that i'll be talking to lee isaac chung about in a little bit called minari which shouldn't be in this category because it's an american production and just because there are characters speaking in a foreign language doesn't mean it shouldn't be able to compete in the other categories nevertheless the hfpa which as we cited earlier does not have any wisdom decided to dragoon the movie in this category. I do think

that it will be rewarded for that fact though, but I'll read the nominees. Another Round. Brilliant movie. I know you just watched it. Tremendous. Don't spoil it for yourselves. Just watch it. Don't read anything about it. My hope is that you will do so before you listen to my interview with thomas vinterberg the writer director of the film and star mads mickelson which i just did yesterday and we'll put on the show at some point in the next couple of weeks beautiful film from denmark la llorona which i've talked about on the show in the past is also nominated as is the life ahead which is the sophia laura netflix vehicle minari and two of us so i assume we're going yes we're going with minari minari is probably the

most seen and the most uh widely celebrated movie of this bunch plus it was at the center of this controversy about six weeks ago next category also kind of chalky best motion picture animated now in the past i have suspected some curiosities in this category. So Best Animated Feature Film has only been around for 15 years at the Globes

but in that time here are a couple of the movies that have won that have not gone on to win Best Animated Feature at the Oscars.

Steven Spielberg's The Adventures of Tintin won. Missing Link last year one and that was the most curious going up against toy story 4 the lion king how to train your dragon 3 and frozen 2 and i think when i saw missing link win i was like did did laika or anapurna send the HFPA on a beautiful adventure to a foreign land? Because while Missing Link is a good film and well-made, no one picked that. That was like a bracket breaker. If you put money on that category, you would have lost a lot of money.

And so I have some suspicions about this category. There is obviously a frontrunner. The frontrunner is Soul. The other nominees are The Croods of New Age, Onward, Over the Moon, and Wolfwalkers. So what are you going with?

I've just been nodding patiently at you for a very long time trying to be supportive. I just realized I needed to stop talking. Yeah, I'm going with Soul because I've seen been nodding patiently at you for a very long time trying to be supportive. I just realized I needed to stop talking. Yeah, I'm going with Soul because I've seen two out of the five movies on this list. And I think Soul is the most obvious. And I don't really think that they think about things. Is the other one The Croods A New Age?

No, I saw Onward. We did a podcast about it. Thanks so much. Is The Croods is the Deacons? Like Deacons? Deacons is involved in that? I'm not sure what level of work he did on this film. This is the second film in the Crudes universe.

I know he was a consultant on the first film. Shout out to Roger Deacons. We think about you every day. What are the Crudes? They are a prehistoric family trying to make their way in the world they are a prehistoric family okay um trying to make their way in the world in the prehistoric world yeah although you know in the new film there's a new

age there there's a sense that they're out of time i did watch this movie i kind of half watched it if i'm being totally honest but the uh the voice work in this movie you know about the cast of these movies i think emma stone is in it right yeah emma stone is the lead work in this movie. You know about the cast of these movies? I think Emma Stone is in it, right? Yeah, Emma Stone is the lead voice in the film. I'm trying to think of who the other voice is. I mean, Nicolas Cage, Ryan Reynolds, Catherine Keener, Clark Duke. It's a good cast.

Do they make it in the new world? No, they die. They die in the first 20 minutes. All right, that's tough. Yeah. Kids gotta learn, you know? Yeah, it's tough. RIP the Croods. So the reason I'm kind of scratching my chin about all this is I feel like there might be a world in which Wolfwalkers, which is an Apple TV Plus film, surprises if Apple is making a strong push with the HFPA.

Now, Wolfwalkers is a very celebrated movie. It's gotten great reviews, debuted out of Toronto last year. And the people who've seen it love it. For me, it's a Celtic and Irish story, and I thought I was going to love it, and I didn't love it as much as I wanted to. It's unfortunate. It is 2D animation and beautifully hand-drawn, and it tells a very touching story, but it didn't work. I'm just the Swedish chef yelling 3D and throwing popcorn right now as we talk about this. Does that mean that you only watch 3D animated films? Is that what you're indicating? Yeah. Okay. I'm with you. I'm going to go with Soul as well. I

know that's boring, but I think if we see a Wolfwalkers moment, here's me saying it on a podcast right now. Congratulations. Next category. Best screenplay motion picture. Why don't you read us the nominees? Emerald Fennell for Promising Young Woman. Jack Fincher for Mank. Aaron Sorkin for The Trial of the Chicago 7. Christopher Hampton and Florian Zeller, The Father. And Chloe Zhao for Nomadland.

You want to take this opportunity to talk about how much you enjoyed The Father? I did really enjoy The Father. I wanted to take the opportunity. I thought I did really good like announcer voice just then um so when we do the is this like the music is important bit what like what are you looking for no i just felt like i was in a real groove and it's like if we do if we like do a new awards ceremony like thank you bobby thought so too i just you know i felt like I was really channeling the guy who reads things like you know Emerald Fennell has been nominated for something as she

walks to the stage anyway I thought you did fine that was okay I'm not gonna over celebrate that okay so yes I saw the father I didn't and it's no longer theife for me because I saw it and I was pretty moved by it. And I do actually think that the screenplay and the conceit, which I don't really want to spoil for people, is part of what makes it work. I also thought Anthony Hopkins' performance was very moving. But so I like The Father a lot. I didn't pick it in this category. I didn't pick it either. I think there's only one choice in this category, unfortunately.

Yeah? I think it's Aaron Sorkin for The Trial of thein for the trial. Oh, do you? I went with a curveball. Did you go with Emerald Fennell? I did go with Emerald Fennell. I think this is possible. Yeah. I think this is possible. You know, originally on this conversation, we were going to talk about Promising Young Woman. And I thought, let's wait. Let's wait to see what Promising Young Woman does at the Golden Globes because it's possible that its performance at this show could announce it as not just a movie that has gotten onto the top 10 list of Oscar contenders, but could really announce itself as a serious contender for a lot of awards. And in the event that that happens, I'd love for there to be an episode of this podcast examining that film. You and I have a lot of thoughts about it, but we'll wait on it.

I think it's a good pick, though, I think what you're suggesting here. I do think that typically both the Golden Globes and the Oscars like to use the screenplay category to reward, you know, some like thoughtful work and a newcomer who's not going to win the big prizes. And Emerald Fenella just is a force within the industry already, even though this is her first feature. And she's the kind of person that you can see them wanting to get behind and people wanting to get behind this movie without actually awarding it Best Drama. So I think this is a natural place at the same time. I can just, do you remember when green book one at the golden globes? And then that was the same year that Bohemian Rhapsody one and musical comedy. Right. And that was when we were still allowed to be in the same room, watching these things. And you and I just like, look at each other and make a face in these moments, like as soon as it's announced and I can just like feel my face when

promising young woman wins like best drama and see your reaction as well. And like, I am, I think that might happen. Uh, it could happen. It could happen. Green book did win best screenplay at the globes in 2018 as well.

And then went on to win the screenplay award at the Oscars. On the other hand, Aaron Sorkin's been nominated eight times for Golden Globes, and he's won twice. He is one of the favorite sons of this award show, and rightly so. I think we've been critical of Trial of Chicago 7 a bit over the last few months because we don't think it's necessarily his best work, but obviously he's an icon of the screenwriting form at this stage. And given the slim pickings in the category, so to speak, no disrespect to any of the nominees, but just the reduced number of

films that were released in 2020, I feel like they'll feel safe going to old reliable here. Could be wrong. I think any of these are interesting choices. There's something to talk about with any of them. And any of them I think are indicative these are interesting choices. There's something to talk about with any of them. And any of them, I think, are indicative about where some of the Oscar stuff is going to. So this is always a pretty important category. What's next? Best Supporting Actor.

I'll read these. Sacha Baron Cohen, The Trial of the Chicago 7. Daniel Kaluuya, Judas and the Black Messiah. Jared Leto, The Little Things. Bill Murray, On the Rocks. Leslie Odom Jr., One Night in Miami. So I think there's a chalky pick here as well. And I think there's two dark horses.

Okay. I think Kaluuya has pulled ahead as the chalky pick because of the just overwhelmingly rave reviews he has gotten for his work in Judas and the Black Messiah, and rightly so. And he's also just been, he's become aggregated. Have you noticed that in the last couple of weeks? You know, he was on a press tour. He was, I thought, so brilliant on higher learning, but he gave a lot of interviews over that time. And a lot of that information, there was a story about him not being invited to the premiere

of Get Out that was utterly bizarre. And so he is now becoming, he's becoming a famous person, really, in a lot of ways. And I think that this indicates that he has taken a kind of pole position in the race. I'm still a little confused why that movie isn't a bigger deal at the globes and at other award shows. I think it's like definitely worthy of a lot of these other films that are on these lists, but I could see a strong case for Sasha Baron Cohen or Leslie Odom Jr. as potentially being recognized here.

What do you think? I went with Kaluuya because I do agree. The number of interview clips of his that I've just watched on my Instagram Explore tab, which I understand once you watch more, they serve you more. And the algorithm's working for me great on that one. I love Daniel Kaluuya. I think he should win. But the actor races don't tend to vary as much in Golden Globes and Oscars. They tend to solidify a bit earlier and the Golden Globes tends to go with, especially in the drama categories, because they have the comedy ones to

mess around with. So here I'm going with Kalu. And I will feel fantastic if that happens. I think there's a strong chance that Sasha is recognized elsewhere. And so because of that, he's probably not likely to win this award. Leslie Odom Jr., you never know. I think people really like him. I think he is a crowd pleaser, so to speak. And he's obviously such a talented guy. And that movie is a showcase for a lot of his different kinds of talents.

And also, as we'll point out, as we keep going with these nominees, Hamilton was also recognized at the Golden Globes, unlike the other award shows. This is another reason why the Globes are potentially well-suited to serving audiences in a weird way is their rules are kind of bullshit. And they'll just say like Hamilton actually is eligible for best picture or whatever. Like, you know, they don't have the same stringency to their rules making. And so they may want to say, this is one more recognition of the movie Hamilton by recognizing Leslie Odom jr's work in one night in Miami.

We shall see, but we're both going with Kaluuya. Why don't you read best supporting actress? Glenn close for hillbilly allergy, Olivia Coleman for the father, Jody Foster, the Mauritanian, Amanda Seyfried,

Mank and Helena Zengel, News of the World Tricky one Very tricky one I think I'm going to change my opinion last second Ooh, okay What did you go? You want me to say it so that it doesn't seem like it's influenced by your pick?

Sure I wasn't worried, but I'm going to go Fuck What am I going to do? I'm gonna go fuck what am I gonna do I'm gonna go Olivia Coleman for the father hmm

now Amanda Seyfried in the early days of this race was a frontrunner she then was not recognized by SAG in a something that I still

don't understand she has been campaigning she appeared on this show, for example, and has given a lot of interviews. She's great. She's super charming and quite good in man because we talked about on the show.

And Glenn Close is pushing once more into the Oscar wheelbarrow. I wish her nothing but the best, but I wish Hillbilly Elegy nothing but the worst. Olivia Col Coleman has like 100% approval rating for me as well so 101% is that is she your pick no um I and finally seeing the father I was like huh people are really just trying to get Olivia Coleman at their awards shows

that's how much they like her and I understand I want to be with her too at all times. Did you see the video that Jillian Anderson shared of the Crown cast doing a dance to Lizzo because Olivia Colman wanted them to? I did not see that. Yeah. They're just all in costume doing a dance that Olivia Colman learned at her neighborhood dance workout class. So I love her, but she's really just a supporting character in The Father. I understand that's the category, but it's really supporting. I agree. I mean, that's part of why I was so mystified, by the way, that she was recognized in this category here and at SAG, where I was like, is this really a performance that is worthy

of this? And yet people love Coleman. I have to have a couple of wild cards here this is a wild card I think Amanda Seyfried should win I think she should win the Oscar like I don't really think it's that complicated I don't know if she's going to I'm going with Amanda Seyfried because I I don't want to spoil the rest of my picks but I think this is the only Mink win and it does seem like Mink is on everybody's mind it has six nominations which I think surprised both of us and everyone else. Because I think you, I, and the Hollywood Foreign Press Association are the only people who liked Mank. But it's, again, it's not a group you want to be in. But here we are.

I was on a call with some college students today. And they told me that they didn't like Mank either. I was like, are you just trying to hurt me? What is the goal of this conversation? I don't know. I love Mank. I love the fincher press tour i just if you know what we should do instead of an awards show let's just have pen affleck and david venture talk for four hours and hand out awards that they want i solved it they can make up the categories they can be current they can be

historical yeah that's the finchies yeah let's do it. There you go. Anyway, I think that this is the one category where someone bank related will win. Okay. Duly noted. You're probably right, but I'm throwing a curveball. Best performance by an actor,

musical or comedy. Sacha Baron Cohen for Borat's subsequent movie film, James Corden for The Prom, Lin-Manuel Miranda for Hamilton, Dev Patel for the David Copperfield film, and Andy Samberg for Palm Springs. Who you got? Sacha Baron Cohen.

Same. I think this is not complicated. Yeah. Also been doing a lot of press. And, you know, he has some opinions about the press and social media that I haven't really investigated. But he is very verbal about them. I suspect that you agree with Sasha's takes on

press and the social media. I'm sure that I do too, but I was also like, I don't need to watch another 30 minute video about how social media is ruining my life. I know. I did listen to him on Fresh Air. I talked about this on the Borat 2 episode. I'm like a legion of Sasha. I think he's brilliant, but he is quite serious about the destruction that Facebook is a havoc that it's wreaking on our lives. And he just he's going to talk about it. He likes to talk about it. You know, worse ways to spend your time. I think if you're a celebrity, he's trying to do some good in the world. I don't begrudge him that best performance by an actress, musical or comedy. Who are the nominees? Maria Bakalova for at subsequent movie film. Kate Hudson, music. Michelle Pfeiffer, French exit.

Rosamund Pike, I care a lot. And Anya Taylor-Joy, Emma. Okay. This is maybe my curveball, though maybe it's not the curveball. I didn't really look at odds. I just decided to go into Amanda World. That's terrifying.

What else is in Amanda World? What are the attractions that made the world we don't have enough time is there a ride that says music is important repeatedly or okay no uh i think that the the chalk pick is maria bakalova she has become the cause celeb for this category and she's brilliant in that movie i don't think she is the lead actress i think she's a supporting character but the globes is going to do what it wants to do in terms of its organization here i feel like they put her in this category so that they could give it to her because this is not a super strong category hence the nomination of

kate hudson for the film music which every person hated except for kate hudson probably but um i'm going bakalova so who's your curveball? I'm going with Rosamund Pike. Okay. The I Care A Lot wave is crashing down right now. It's astonishing to me how many people like this film. I just want to get that right out there. And you know what?

If something brought you joy, and it was a movie, and it had actors we like, and it is not part of an IP franchise and it worked for you. That's great. Didn't work for me, but it does seem like everyone really likes Rosamund Pike, myself included. Everyone thinks she's the best part of this.

She is like very much the face of it. She has been doing a little bit of, of press for it as well. I mean, you know, it helps that the press of the movie and the press of the Golden Globes timeline are kind of aligned. I can just see them going for it. Yeah, I listened to you

and Chris talk about it as I said on TV Concierge. I think it's a conversation worth listening to if you're not me. And I agreed with almost everything that you guys had to say.

I think this movie is a real curiosity and there are parts of it that I think are very well crafted and it has a lot of style and I have no idea what its purpose is like none and I don't even mean like in a moral way. I mean like in a storytelling way like I don't even know what point they're making

with this movie and I think it seems to think it has a lot on its mind and I love an acid dipped movie. We're just talking about Fincher. I love movies that are relentlessly cynical. This was kind of cynical to the point of obscurantism I was like who like what are what are you who are you even trying

to speak to with this aside from as I said earlier this week like Twitter like memes like this just feels like a movie for memes and I didn't really dig it that much I did love Rosamund Pike I mean I you know she's she's always she's great at this form of acting, this style of character.

You know, the kind of like Amazing Amy has gone to the sociopath level style of acting. But the movie doesn't work for me. But I think you're right. I mean, as you said, this was the number one movie on Netflix this weekend. It's cresting at an effective moment. She's kind of famous.

She's certainly famous enough. Did she win? I think she's won a famous. She's certainly famous enough. Did she win? I think she's won a Golden Globe before. Has she not? Did she? Let me see. No, but she has been nominated three times previously. Yeah.

Including for a private war, which was a very good performance as a war correspondent, a true life story that otherwise was not really recognized that much. So I wonder if they have a fetish for her. So you might be onto something. I think they do. And I do also think Andrew Gratadero,

our colleague had a great theory about the success of I care a lot, which is just that like the thumbnail with that Bob and kind of the candy colored stylization is just very appealing to people. And, and she's a part of that. And I think despite it, her character being completely reprehensible and also not making a ton of sense.

Um, she's definitely the appeal of the movie. So if they like her, I could see it. I'm sticking with Maria Bakalova, but you may be right. Okay. Best performance by an actor and a drama.

Who are the nominees? Riz Ahmed, son of metal Chadwick Boseman, Ma Rainey's black bottom, Anthony Hopkins, the father, Gary Oldman, Mink and Tah we should be rejecting the Golden Globes. Now, presumably, Chadwick Boseman will be recognized for his work in Ma Rainey's Black Bottom.

He is the heavy favorite to win the Oscar for this for obvious reasons. He's tremendous in the film we lost him in 2020 uh he deserves to be recognized the posthumous award is you know there's a tried and true tradition behind this it it is it's clean easy and makes sense and is worthy if something like anthony hopkins or gary oldman happens here i think people are gonna be like what the fuck and you never know you never know fuck? And you never know. You never know. It's true. You never know.

I think Gary Oldman in particular, because he won so recently and because there's a great quote, I believe, in that L.A. Times piece of Gary Oldman just roasting the Hollywood Foreign Press Association like one year and then three years later thanking them when he wins for the winston churchill movie um darkest hour darkest hour that's the film let's thank you winston churchill again just thanking figures in history is your weirdest tick bizarre um i i think that i'm going with Chadwick Boseman. And I agree with you that if it's not Chadwick Boseman, it'll be a real mess.

I think with reason. And I say that I really like the Anthony Hopkins performance. And I really like all of these other people. But it's just that narrative is solidified mostly. And this is like one time where I'm really okay with the narrative being solidified like I think it's worthy and if they just decide to get wacky I'm not here for it

I agree with you I'm going Chadwick Boseman as well let's keep our eye on this one though for some reason I got a bad feeling about it best performance by an actress in a drama the nominees are Carrie Mulligan for Promising Young Woman Frances McDormand for Nomadland, Vanessa Kirby

for Pieces of a Woman, Viola Davis for Ma Rainey's Black Bottom, and Andra Day for The United States vs. Billie Holiday. So, you've got a take here.

Do you have a take? You don't have a take. Did you pull back on your take? No. Is it a take to pick Carey Mulligan? I don't know.

Is that a take? I don't know. I think it's going to be Francesy Mulligan? I don't know. Is that a take? I don't know. I think it's gonna be Frances McDormand. I'm going Frances. All right. I really enjoy Frances McDormand and she's wonderful. I think that people really like Carey Mulligan, including myself, love Carey Mulligan.

And that there is energy behind Promising Young Woman and that her performance has kind of been isolated even within that. And you can just see the Globes wanting to reward it. It's very possible. It's very possible that if she wins here, it shotguns her into lead in the Best Actress race, which she has not been. I think this has been perceived as a Frances McDormand versus Viola Davis race. Here's the thing about those two. Frances McDormand has two Oscars and Viola Davis already has one too. Carey Mulligan does not have an Oscar. There's a real story to tell about her career, the work that she does. There's the whole Mishigas with the variety review and the New York Times story. I don't even know if we can get into that. Maybe we'll save it for the Promising Woman thing. I don't even know if we can get into that. Maybe we'll save it for the Promising Woman thing.

I don't even really feel qualified to weigh in on that, to be perfectly honest with you. It's such a tangle. But this could be like a kind of confirmation of her as the front runner in that category too, which is interesting. Certainly adds a little intrigue to the Oscars. Yes.

And it means we'll be talking about that film and that performance. She's great. And I do think in the Golden Globes, particularly, people just vote for people that they like. And I mean, she just came on your show and talked about The Last Dance for a while. Like that rules.

She's pretty cool. Yeah. Everybody likes Gary Mulligan. She's married to a Mumford also, which is still just, and they seem to be doing wonderfully. Just like a great celebrity factoid. I hope they're doing very well in her.

Happy. Yeah. Three more categories. Best director, motion picture, Emerald Finnell, David Fincher, Regina King,

Aaron Sorkin, and Chloe Zhao. What do you got? I'm going with Chloe Zhao, but I changed that at the last minute. So I could see it being honestly pretty much everyone on this list, but especially Fincher. Like I had Fincher and then I went to Chloe Zhao.

I'm going Chloe Zhao as well. Okay. I don't really have a strong reasoning for that. I think she's the front runner for best Director at the Oscars right now, too. Yeah. It does seem like Nomadland. There have been some criticisms, of course, but I think it's been very, very warmly received. Seems to have run an effective campaign, and this will continue that campaign.

Plus, you know, she gets the added benefit of getting to talk about Eternals every time she talks, so she just gets more and more well-known as the press tour continues. Best picture, musical or comedy. What are the nominees? Wow. It feels rude to even ask me to read these. That's not fair to all of them. Borat subsequent movie film, Hamilton, music, Palm Springs and the prom. Wouldn't it be sick if Palm Springs won? It really would. Great film. That would be really nice.

It's not completely out of the realm of possibility. It's highly unlikely, but I don't know. I just don't think that they have good enough taste or common sense or a sense of fun in order to actually pick Palm Springs. So let me read you the list of the nominees in this category from the year 2009. Okay. Nine, the Rob Marshall musical, Julie and Julia, 500 Days of Summer, The Hangover, and It's Complicated. What do you think won? I have no idea. The Hangover, and It's Complicated. What do you think won? I have no idea.

The Hangover. Yeah. Cool. So, you never know. Could it be Palm Springs? You never know that the Palm Springs winning would be akin to the Hangover winning in a category with Julie and Julia and It's Complicated? Just that it's... No.

Surprises are possible. Surprises are possible, but not good surprises. surprises okay so you're going with music then okay listen I did out of journalistic responsibility watch the first 30 minutes of music and I just there are there's been a lot of great pieces written about what is wrong with with music and read all of them instead of watching it that's my review. You going Borat 2 here? No, I'm going Hamilton. Oh man, you think they're going to reward this?

I do. You think they're going to say this is the best picture, musical or comedy? Why are you speaking to me as if it's my choice? We're talking about the Amandys, right? That's the award show we're talking about? I'm trying to read the minds of a group of 87 people who just want some free tote bags, okay? And so they're going with Hamilton. Yeah, free tote bags full of gold bars. I think that they will reward Hamilton

because it's extremely popular. That sucks. I agree with you. Hamilton is good, but that's just stupid. It's not my favorite film stage production of 2020 let's just put it that way I'm kind of bummed I mean you're frequently right about these things which is why I'm kind of annoyed why because I'm a cynical asshole no I mean just because you I think you don't let hopes and dreams get in the way and I think I do sometimes and I pretend like I I am cynical like you but deep down

I have a full heart and I want well it's so sad that I'm like the the cranky person in the corner who can't believe in dreams the Hamilton wedding would be great for a lot of people just not you and me it's just not a movie it's a beautiful

stage play I saw it it was incredibly well performedperformed, beautifully sung. I sat next to Sting. It was a great night. You did get to sit next to Sting. That was pretty cool. There are a lot of people who didn't get to see it. And so it is cool that they had this opportunity.

And a lot of people watched it. A lot of people. Of course. And I'm not begrudging the democratization of Broadway via Disney+. I'm just saying it's not a movie. It wasn't conceived as a movie. It was shot as a series of performances. It's not a movie.

Movies are already under threat. I don't know. I'm wigging out over something. It doesn't matter. I'm with you. I'm surprised that this is the pick that bums you out the most. Well, it's not about Hamilton. It's just that Hamilton isn't the thing that it's technically rewarding you know it'd be it'd be like giving best picture musical or comedy to

a pineapple it's like it's a pineapple it's not a movie why is it that rules and category fraud are the things that you just start like having a mental breakdown because we need order in this society i'm in i agree i agree but it's just like we gotta let it go buddy you know what it is that there is a reason i love when you ask me a rhetorical question like this and i have a real answer because there is no order in our society because there is no sense of security It's like the Snyder Cut trailer at this point, okay? What's happening? What I'm saying is we need a man, a Batman, to come and save us.

And hopefully he looks like Ben Affleck. Okay, let's go to the last category before I lose my noodle here. Best motion picture drama. Please read the nominees. The Father, Manc, Nomadland,

Promising Young Woman, and The Trial of the Chicago 7. I'm surprised they didn't nominate the performance of Miss Saigon that I saw in 1992. Did you go in person? Yeah. With the helicopter?

Yeah. That's cool, Sean. Thank you, Amanda. I was raised in New York, so it was not that big of a deal. Well, not all of us were. And so we didn't get to see the helicopter in the theater yeah it was pretty cool i actually don't know what year it was but i did see it okay well that's was it did you were you impressed no okay i was like let's go home and watch predator that's a real helicopter none of these stage helicopters okay you know what i'm talking about

you seen predator no i don't think so i've seen chris ryan act out parts of it in my office though it's so good amanda it's just absolutely beautiful film i'll tell you what's really good is chris ryan the day after he's seen any predator related movie just coming into your personal space and just like monologuing about what happened for 10 minutes. You know that the meme of the white arm and the black arm coming together and meeting? Yeah, yeah, yeah. That is from Predator. Oh, wow.

And that is also me and Chris every time a Predator movie comes out. We are so emotionally locked in, even if it's terrible. And some of them are terrible. But the original Predator, that's a top 100 movie of all time. Okay. Beautiful film. Okay. Great. Best motion picture drama. What are you what are you picking trial of chicago seven yeah me too yeah want want that's why i didn't do it in screenplay because i think they're just going

to be like here you go here's the film that helps us simplistically understand america without any complications whatsoever so i think you're right on here. Do you think that this means that Trial of Chicago 7 takes a lead, so to speak, ahead of Nomadland? Or does it mean anything for the race after that? I don't think so. And I know I'm contradicting myself because I said earlier that I think the Golden Globes have an unprecedented amount of influence on the Oscars just because it's the only way people are going to hear about these movies. And like people who listen to this podcast and we love you very much have been asking us to talk about Promising Young Woman. But I think like basically no one in America has seen Promising Young Woman. And if Carey Mulligan wins or, you know, Emerald Fennell wins and people are going to be like, OK, what is that?

So I think that it's going to elevate a lot of movies that really haven't had a platform. But I don't think Best Picture, the last couple, well, I guess Best Picture last year changed and did a flip from 1917 to Parasite. And Parasite was not nominated because it was foreign language. I guess that's a good point but i just i think that there is enough time and that the year is so weird that it doesn't necessarily dictate that trial of chicago seven will win i think it will refresh it in a lot of people's minds and again that's a movie that came out in september so it does kind of need to be pushed to the front of people's brains again so that might help but it just to me.

This just seems like globes nip. So this category has only accurately. Reflected the best picture winner. And I believe three. Of the last 10 years. Argo 12 years a slave. And moonlight and everything else. And obviously part of that is because these categories.

Are split in half by musical or comedy. And some of it is the foreign language example. For Parasite where it was not eligible. And some of it is because these categories are split in half by musical or comedy and some of it is uh the foreign language example for parasite where it was not eligible and some of it is about esoterica i mean three billboards outside ebbing missouri beat the shape of water in 2017 that was weird i like i don't i don't know why that happened i don't totally understand maybe it was like the concept of like a film made by a person not born in America reflecting on the American experience voted on by a foreign association of journalists that somehow resonated. But this is an odd category is basically what I'm saying. It's not always what you think it might be. And that same year when three billboards won the Golden Globe, Guillermo del Toro won director, right?

For Shape of Water. Let me check. I think they did a split and I kind of think that's what's happening here. Guillermo del Toro won and Martin McDonough won for screenplay.

That's right. Right. So that's kind of what I think is happening in the picture director split. And I think that probably who wins best director at the Globes

is a slightly stronger indicator of where best Picture is going. Interesting. I think that's smart. That makes sense. Okay, well, what have we not addressed? Anything else about the Golden Globes before we return again Sunday night? How are they going to do it?

We don't really know. Big test case here. This is ostensibly the most fun part about this is seeing Clooney and Pitt clinking glasses and chuckling about whatever's been going on, let alone the star wattage on these nominees is not as big and noisy as it historically is. So there's some complexity here. Well, you pointed out last year that the Emmys did a pretty good job of this.

Actually, last year when they did their award show, there's going to have to be some virtual aspect to what they do. We shall see on Sunday night. In the meantime, thank you to Bobby Wagner. Amanda and I will see you on Sunday night. Please dress nice, Amanda. Are you ready? Are we actually dressing up? Are we, is this going to be on video? Remember when we dressed up for the Oscars last year, except you didn't tell me? I don't remember that. Oh, you had to get a dress yes yeah god bless my husband who drove the dress yeah um are we actually dressing up does it matter yeah i think you should get uh a tux with tails and i'll get like an astronaut suit and we'll see how we look you know that i think i really would love it if you got an astronaut suit. I would make me very happy.

I would laugh a lot. Hey, did you know that they're running the Mars mission, like from the Pasadena NASA? What? What are you talking about? Space Camp Amanda just zooming in. That's what I was talking about. But did you know that the Mars Perseverance mission is being run from the Pasadena NASA Jet Propulsion Laboratory? I just found that out.

I'm going to space camp after this podcast. Long-time listeners of this pod and other Ringer podcasts will know that there's a phrase we use from time to time, which is called save it for the pod. It's when you engage in a conversation that could be best had on a podcast. This is literally the opposite of that. This is a save it for someone else. Save it for your life. You've run up the astronaut suit, okay? Well, I was not trying to get you into a conversation about space camp once again,

but I appreciate it. To infinity and beyond for you, Amanda. Okay, thank you. Thanks again, and I'll see you on Sunday. Delighted to be joined by Lee Isaac Chung. Isaac, thanks for joining me today. How are you? I'm great. Thank you, Sean. This is so great. Thanks for having me on this. Yeah, it's my pleasure. So, you know, I want to start by getting a sense of where you were in your life before you set about to make Minari. So, you know, where were you? Who were you? What were you doing? So me in 2017 and 18, I was basically a guy who's coming to terms with the feeling that maybe I need to wind down filmmaking and I need to transition into something else. I started applying to different teaching jobs here in L. And I got this job offer in Korea, of all places, to go and teach film at the University

of Utah Asia campus. And that offer came in in the spring of 2018. And I knew I had a few months before that job started. So I thought, I'm going to write a script. I'm going to use this time to not only prepare my curriculum, but also to work on something. And that was really the genesis from Unity. So do you think, in hindsight, because I think your career is going to go in a very different direction than maybe you were imagining a few years ago, do you think you would have been happy just working as a teacher, teaching film and and not continuing to pursue filmmaking um to answer your question i kind of felt it was a big uh compromise on my part something i didn't want to do um but what i came to realizing was that I did feel grateful about it once I started teaching.

So there was a moment when I thought maybe the film wasn't going to get made. This was after Plan B was on board and A24 was talking to us that I felt like the bottom dropped from under us and this project was just dead in the water. So that was like in April of 2019. And to be honest, I just felt so fine. I felt like I was grateful for what I have. My wife and daughter were with me. And it was a real turning point for me emotionally and spiritually and all these different things. And I just felt like, oh, I've reached a point where I'm kind of liberated from this dream in some way. And I'm going to be okay. I can survive.

And I gave it my best shot. And lo and behold, it was the Monday after I kind of had that realization inside myself that we found out that we got the financing and all that stuff. So it was really strange, that timing and the fact that I had to go through that before making this film. It almost felt like it fit within some of the themes of the movie. It was really strange, that timing and the fact that I had to go through that before making this film. It almost felt like it fit within some of the themes of the movie. So it's really wild that that happened. Can you take me back to the moment when you first started writing? I'm curious, as a screenwriter, how you worked. Since the film pulls clearly so autobiographically from some of your experiences, do you start with scenes?

Do you just start typing dialogue? Do you sketch out a whole shape and structure for a movie? Where did you start with scenes do you just start typing dialogue do you sketch out a whole shape and structure for a movie where'd you begin with this um this one i started with a list of memories really i kind of saw that as the starting point and these memories served as almost visual markers for things that would happen within the story um and i noticed that the memories could be correlated with different characters so one memory memory I have of bringing home baby chickens from work or whatever, this could happen in conjunction with the parents talking about something. And what I like to do is separate different moments of memories that I want to use into character columns. So I use Excel. This is really nerdy, something I do. I love it. This is great.

Yeah. And what I do is I just put all the memories down in each character and then I start to see, are there patterns that line up? And I line those things up. And then I have a greater arc of where the story is going to go for the entire family. And I try to shift all the memories around so that they kind of fit within that. So it's a weird way of working, but I like to start with the details, but then start to reorder and change those almost like a collage. recently in an interview you said this was a film i wanted to do on my terms and to not leave anything behind because i wasn't sure if i'd ever get to make another film again which you noted did do you feel like that freed you up to be not just more personal but more open and creative in terms of you know writing this film i i felt it for myself that yeah i I had fewer anxieties or worries about what I was doing with the story, or if something I'm doing with the story is going to fit well with audiences or critics and all these different things that I used to think about. With this one, it was all just about me and this story and my family and wanting to get down to what is it I want to do? What, what,

what is it that's so, so personal that if I don't do, I'm going to regret. So it was a way of shutting out all these different voices that I usually have in my head. And strangely enough, I mean, that, that ended up being what seems to resonate more with people. The fact that i went in that way so the irony of that is is not lost on me that that that kind of uh helped me to even find the things that i worried about in the past like audiences and you know all those things whenever someone makes a film that is raw and comes from a very personal place i'm curious

if the filmmaker goes to members of their family beforehand and says hey i'm gonna i'm gonna mine some you know potentially very painful or at least very intimate moments of our history are you on board with this um did you talk to people in your life and say i'm thinking about doing something that you may recall? I only talked to, I only told my wife what I was doing. I didn't tell anybody. I for certain didn't want to tell my parents and my sister. I was just afraid of what they would say and that that would influence me a lot in the writing or it might even dissuade me not to do this.

And for me, like I said, it was very personal. I just had to get it out onto paper. So I didn't even tell them that I was working on a script even. I just kind of told them I'm getting ready for teaching. I'm working on my curriculum and preparing lectures. And at the same time, I would ask them questions every now and then, like, you know, when grandma came from Korea and she had all that money, how did she get that money? You know, I would ask for little details like that. But they didn't know what I was up to. I find that sometimes when I'm reminded of an event from my childhood by a memory or by having a conversation with someone that sometimes it's cathartic, but sometimes it's kind of confusing. And since you were attempting to

kind of tap into your past and figure out what maybe you wanted to put into this story and not put into this story, what, what kind of feelings were you having? Um, yeah, I, I don't know. I guess it, I had so many different feelings around it. It just felt like I was learning different things every day with it. I think the underlying thing that I was learning was just the human story behind my parents and what brought them to the US and the things that they must have been going through as parents and as husband and wife and all these things that I personally was dealing with as I was transitioning into a different career and looking at immigrating to another country myself. Yeah, I just found myself relating so much to them and to their story and to who they are that I found that remarkable because I always felt there was such a gulf and gap between us. But really, I felt like maybe that's not the case. We're so

much more similar than I think. There are so many visual echoes in the film or sort of representations of the ideas that you're accomplishing. And I'm curious when you're writing, do you know that you're going to say, this will look like this, or this will be shot in this way so that I'm able to capture this feeling? Or is that something that comes after you've written the script? There are certain details that I like to include within the script. For instance, the transition between David holding the Korean Hwatu card and you see like a horizon on it. And then you see that transition into a horizon on the farm and the men are walking on the farm. Like those were distinct visual images that I had that I just wanted to preserve.

And I think in the script, there are a lot of those moments of visual details that I definitely wanted to keep. But I try to keep a lot of things spare since I don't know what the locations will look like exactly. And, and so a lot is filled in once, once Lachlan Milne, the DP is on board. Once we have the locations, once we have Yongwook, our production designer, there's just so much of that sort of visual style and approach that really it's, it's a whole team that comes up with that. It's not the director. It's the body of people together working. Was this a significantly bigger production than your previous films?

For sure it was. I remember there were a lot of people constantly saying, we have no money for this movie. This is no money. And I remember I brought up at the pre-production meeting, this is more than I've ever had on a film. Most of my films have been super low budget, like ultra low budget. And yeah, so it was more. It was more. But at the same time, within maybe five days of pre-production, I'm already starting to feel like we have no money. I'm starting to feel the same way as everyone else. What happened in April 2019 that the money came through and was there a decision made or casting or something? Yeah, you know, we had a lot of problems with our scheduling because so many things had to line up.

We have two young kids on the shoot. And so their working hours are very much affected once we go into the school year. So then we lose the amount of hours they can spend on a set because they need to be in school. And then we had actors who have different projects that they're committed to. So it looked like if we don't shoot in July or August, then we can't shoot in 2019. Now, as we know, there's no 2020 for this film. We couldn't have shot in 2020. But back then, I think our producer, Christina Oh, told me if we don't hear back by I think it was like April 13th if we don't hear back by April 13th from A24 there's not enough time for us to prep this film by July so we can't

do this film and I remember that day passed and and then I had I had my kind of mini reckoning with with my life and coming to terms with my future as a professor and accepting that. And then, um, and then Christina gave us the good news the following Monday that we're good to go. Uh,

it was wild. Forgive the, I guess the crassness of this question, but you're making a movie with a 24 and plan B. Steven is your star. He's obviously at a very special moment, I think for a rising special moment, I think, for a rising young actor.

Do you have, and because you're a professor of film and you have made films and you know how the industry works, is there a sense like this could be a moment

if I do this correctly? Like I really could essentially completely change my life by telling the story of my life and that that is like an utterly unique

opportunity um oh oh for sure i i had those thoughts because um if if you look at the films that i love for the past like 10 years coming out of the u.s most of them are produced by plan b um and uh you know i love a24 films as well um they've they've done such incredible work so that tandem that that partnership and knowing that those two came together and made Moonlight I knew that if this could come together then it could be it could be big and and that they would help me be surrounded by a lot of artisans who can help me make this film and all these different things. So before that rush in April, as we were trying to get A24 on board, I did feel like, wow, this could be really big. And then I felt that kind of go away from me for about a weekend.

And that's kind of what I had to come to peace with. And once we were back on board, honestly, from that moment onwards, there wasn't much time to think about all that context because we had hardly any time to prepare to make this film. So we just hit the ground running. And we had to find the kids. We had to find the entire team and then go into production in Oklahoma in July.

So it was quite a rush getting to that point. What was your first conversation with Stephen like about the film? I was in Hong Kong and he was in LA and it was over Skype. And he was so gracious because at first he basically said, you know, he wants to help me get this film made no matter what. And it doesn't matter if he's acting in it, if he's a producer in it, um, he, he wants to help me get it made. And I wasn't sure if he would want to act in it or not. so that was kind of a line that we were both drawing near to and trying to figure out with each other and with this project um and i just

remember that conversation a lot about a lot of it was around that idea and wondering is it is it right for the film and um i love that he was being so humble about it. And yeah, and I mean, looking back, I just kind of laugh about it, because it's a no brainer to have him in the film, and that he's the perfect choice. But you know, there were things that I wasn't sure, I wasn't sure if he didn't want to do it, because he'd have to speak with an an accent in a Korean accent when he speaks English. And for a lot of actors of Asian American descent, that's kind of fraught with a lot of issues. They're often asked to speak with an accent when they don't want to. So I wasn't sure. I was trying to be safe. Did you change the conception, the,

the, the, your sort of perception of the character at all when he, someone like him comes on, you know, does the script change at all to kind of reflect, um, what he's capable of doing?

Yeah. I, I asked him to give me about a week with it to just rewrite the script, um, to, to make sure that it definitely works and, and to really, uh, center it on him,

like me picturing him as the actor. And for me, that was really important. And as I did that, I just saw that this is totally a Steven Yeun film and this would be so perfect. And yeah, and I sent him the script. The funny thing is, I don't think he remembers that. Now when I talk to him about it, he doesn't remember that step. But for me, that's important for me to go through that moment of rewriting something for another person just to put it into their voice and all those things. I feel like it's an underrated or under-discussed aspect of casting films and kind of how films can be reshaped somehow before they're made originally. There's this idea of the sanctity of the screenplay, but it's complicated when you're working with real people, right?

Yeah, yeah, definitely. With this script, I had the luxury of having Will Patton first. I knew I was writing for him when I wrote that character of Paul. And you had worked together with Will before. Exactly. Yeah. Everyone else, I didn't know who they would be. So like you said, it was that step of making sure it fits that was necessary to take the script away from just being an untouchable thing to really adapting and being malleable towards a person. What'd you do to find the young actors who play the kids in the film? We had a wonderful casting agent named Julia Kim, and she put out all these flyers to different Korean schools and afterschool programs, language programs, all these places

where bilingual Korean kids might be hanging out. And she would actually physically show up to these places in LA and hand parents flyers. And I think she said there are a lot of parents who felt very skeptical about what she's doing or they were kind of questioning who is this person. It's a little suspicious. Yeah, exactly. questioning who is this person it's a little suspicious yeah exactly and luckily we found

alan through um some listing that julia had put in to northern california korean americans and so he came in through that and noel came in through some contacts in virginia so they were on two opposite sides of the U.S. It's incredible. What about having Emil do the score? I think his work is so amazing. And I was just listening to it last night. And I thought that was such an inspired choice. I mean, how did you come to that decision? Yeah, Emil is... I loveil uh i met him through christina our producer christina o she produced last black man of san francisco so she already knew of his his brilliance and his genius i i hadn't seen that film yet because i hadn't come out um but what she did is she let me listen to

the score and she also sent me some of his work that he did for Terrence Nance. And I would just write to his music while I was in Korea, when I was revising the script and everything. I was already feeling like there's some connection that I have with this guy. And I finally met him in LA at the Last Black Man of San Francisco premiere. And then we had coffee together and we just hit it off super well. And he sent me like five pieces from the score that you hear before we started filming. Um, and they weren't recorded by a live orchestra or anything. I mean, he had, he had just kind of sketched it out on his computer and with his own

instruments, but they're very close to what you hear in the film. So just to have that music before filming, it set the tone for us in many ways, like the emotional tone. That's so interesting. Yeah, it's completely indelible to me now. You know, I feel like I hear it and I immediately see the images. That's like, that's the power of a good score. I wanted to ask you about this complex conversation around your film and this idea of its quote unquote universality and the American dream. And what is it like to have a film be received in this way and interpreted in this way? Because a lot of people are seeing it and probably a lot more people are going to see it over the next three or four weeks. And a lot of feelings are being projected onto it. So since it's so personal, what has it been like to observe that?

It's been surreal in a way and gratifying in other ways. I do feel grateful that there's a larger conversation taking place around the film that I think is a good conversation, a healthy conversation. And at the same time, I mean, the anchor and the root of this film is deeply personal to me. So I don't want to almost mess with what other people are taking from this film if it's valuable to them, because I know, I know that there's

something in there for me, um, that I don't want anyone taking away from me. Uh, so really I, I've been hesitant to like criticize any interpretation of the film. And I wonder if other, other filmmakers go through this sort of thing, almost like you just want to leave the table open and it's, it's up to people to figure out what to do with the meal. And all you do is hope that they enjoy it. Your first film in 2007 had, you know, it was really well-received and had a run at festivals,

not necessarily dissimilar from, from this film, but since you have this experience and since you know the landscape so well, were you at all cynical or guarded after the reception at Sundance, which was just so overwhelmingly positive? I think in general, I'm guarded. And I tend to be cynical. My sister was teasing me because I wasn't going to stay for the awards at Sundance.

I was going to go home. And she was on a vacation in Hawaii with her family. And she cut that short to come back and force me to stay at Sundance. Because she just thought something's going to happen. She was reading news or whatever. And she thought we were going to win something. Looking at those tweets, I bet. I think that's what she was definitely looking at the tweets.

I might have shared a tweet. I might have tweeted something about it. It's a great film. You want to express that you love the movie. I appreciate that. Yeah, I told her recently, she said, she was making fun of me. Can you believe you are not going to stay? And I told her, even now, even knowing what I know now, I think I would not have tried to stay because that's how cynical I am about this stuff. But you're happy you stayed?

I am happy I'm staying, yeah. What has it been like just kind of waiting for the world to see your film? It's not unusual necessarily for a film at Sundance to have a year or so to go by before the public at large sees it but obviously the last year has been very complicated for the world of movie going um you know what is your year with your movie been like yeah it's been um I've tried to take it in stride because I just felt like, I mean, my wife and I, we were trying to figure out how to get the house going and how to, you know, our daughter was learning at home and no longer going to school. And I think we were kind of dealing with lots of things that other people were dealing with. So there were plenty of distractions to keep me, keep my mind away from the film. And it almost more felt like we need to take care of all this stuff first anyways. So honestly, I wasn't thinking too much about when we release and all that stuff. I was just hoping that the world wasn't going to collapse. All the stuff that everyone else was kind of dealing with for the past year.

Were you able to work? Were you writing at all? I was writing a lot. Yeah. That, that is one thing that I did. I was, I was trying to work on my writing and planted a garden and yeah, we got a dog. Yeah. That's nice. It seems like you had a not terrible quarantine. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, we were lucky compared to lots of people.

We've seen all kinds of things. So yeah, we're fortunate. What do you make of award season so far? Yeah, it's kind of wild because obviously never gone through anything like this. And I think in my past, I was kind of a snobby filmmaker when I was coming up in my 20s. And, you know, I would disparage award season. I was one of those guys. But, you know, these days, like, I'm just hoping we find an audience with the film. And that's kind of been the priority, really.

And all this award stuff and awards buzz um just trying to experience it and and live through it it feels like another life experience really um but not let it define me and i don't know if that answers your question it's it's i just feel a mix of things all the time. It's honestly just surreal because I wasn't expecting any of this. Yeah, I asked you something vague, I think, because there's a couple of interesting aspects. I probably paid too much attention to movie awards, honestly, but that's on me. But between the Golden Globes conversation around the film and only being eligible for the foreign language category, but then also the cast being recognized by SAG was something of a surprise.

And I assume it must've been pretty exciting for you guys. Yeah. I think that the SAG thing, I didn't realize how happy that was going to make me that one in particular. I just am so fond of these actors and what they did in the movie and to see them recognized by other actors and nominated in that way. I'm just so thrilled for them. So that's,

I just keep hoping that they're going to keep winning stuff. And I love it. I think, I think I was talking to YJ and she was saying, you know, all this award stuff, it's stressing me out. You know,

all these, all these people are talking to me about Oscars in Korea. And I just love it. I'm glad she's stressed about it. Because, you know, she deserves that recognition. And I'm just so happy for them. What are you going to do now? Like, are you hoping to start making a film in the near future? Um, I'm, I'm working with,

uh, I'm working with bad robot on something right now that I'm pretty excited about. And, um, yeah, is this your name? Is this actually happening?

Yeah. Yeah. So I, I'm not sure when it will happen and we're still working all that out and trying to figure it out. But, um, it's just been great working with them and I, I'm hoping'm hoping to do another romance or do a romance for the first time and working with Plan B again.

So yeah, those are the two things that I've been working on a lot during this quarantine, just writing scripts and trying to figure out those stories. I know you're a cinephile. We end every episode of this show by asking filmmakers, what's the last great thing they've seen? Can you recommend a thing or two since I know you're a man of taste? That's a lot of pressure, Sean, to put it that way. Just share some movies, man. I know you've seen some stuff.

Okay, this is going to sound really weird, but I don't know if this is his taste or not but the 2000s era 2000 till 2010 era spielberg is highly underrated in my opinion i love it yeah i i went through all that again during the quarantine and i i was just shocked by it just how fresh it is how good it is how. You mean like Minority Report, War of the Worlds, those movies? Exactly. Yeah, those two I watched again. AI, I watched again.

That's a masterpiece, AI. Yeah. Yeah, Catch Me If You Can. You're speaking my language. I'm with you. Those are fantastic. What spurred the return to Spielberg? I've just been thinking like I want people

to have fun in the theaters. I want people to have fun again. And as I was writing, I was thinking about that. So I decided to revisit those films. What was it about those films that made me have fun when I watched them? And yeah,

he's just a master of that. He still has a lot of depth in what he's doing, but at the same time, it's such a ride what he's just a master of that he still has a lot of depth in what he's doing but at the same time such a ride what he's doing yeah love to be able to figure it figure it out and do the same somehow i can't wait to see what you do hopefully we're all back in movie theater senior movies isaac thanks for doing this thanks so much sean thank you Thank you.