The Big Picture - '1917' and the Roger Deakins Hall of Fame (SPOILERS) | The Big Picture

Episode Date: January 15, 2020

Sam Mendes's extraordinary World War I drama, designed and shot to look as if it is unfolding in one seamless take, has crashed the Oscars party and dominated at the box office in its first week of wide release. Sean and Amanda are joined by Chris Ryan to discuss the movie's technical feats, storytelling troubles, and Academy chances next month (1:04). Then, the trio discuss the work of '1917' cinematographer Roger Deakins and select the 10 essential films from his brilliant career—which damn sure wasn't easy (44:00). Hosts: Sean Fennessey and Amanda Dobbins Guest: Chris Ryan Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What's up, guys? It's Liz Kelley, and welcome to the Ringer Podcast Network. This week, to celebrate the 100th episode of the Rewatchables podcast, Quentin Tarantino returns for the third and final movie in his three-part series with us. In the final episode, Bill Simmons and Sean Fennessy discuss with Quentin one of his favorite movies, the 1990 crime thriller King of New York. Make sure to check out this special episode and follow at The Rewatchables on Twitter for highlights of all 100 episodes. I'm Sean Fennessey. I'm Amanda Dobbins. And this is The Big Picture, a conversation show about

Warners, war, and the great Roger Deakins. We're joined by our Warner, Chris Ryan. What's up, buddy? That's right. One take, Chris. On this show, we're going to be alert spoiling a movie. That movie is called

1917. So if you do not want to have that movie spoiled for you, I suggest you fast forward to our long conversation about Roger Deakins later in

the show. 1917, of course, is dedicated to the memory of Sam Mendy's paternal grandfather, Alfred Mendy, the veteran of the Great War. 1917, of course, is dedicated to the memory of Sam Mendy's paternal grandfather, Alfred Mendy, a veteran of the Great War. 1917 is a latecomer and a new favorite of the Oscars. It's already a huge box office success.

It's got 10 Academy Award nominations, unusually strong word of mouth among human beings that I've encountered, if not universal critical acclaim, something we'll talk about on this show. We're also going to talk about what makes this movie unique and about the work of Deakins, who is the cinematographer on this movie and really one of the great living film artists. Let's start with the movie. This movie is well known now as the sort of one take movie, the no cutting, incredibly stylized and choreographed film. Chris, I'm going to start with you. Okay. What did you make of 1917? You know, I really respected it if not entirely moved by it.

So I really, I thought it was just like a wonderful film to spend time with and go on this adventure with these guys and go through this journey and this trip through hell with them. But I wasn't particularly like deeply moved by the movie. I think it really kind of repeats a lot of war movie tropes that are pretty well-worn at this part. And a lot of the like kind of emotional moments of the film are ones that I feel like are pretty well-worn. Amanda, what about you? I just want to say that I really respect it is how you start like a breakup, just so you know. I want you to know I really respect you. It's not you, it's World War I. Yeah, I think I agree with Chris though like I'm maybe surprisingly

a bit warmer towards it I think that this is like a truly truly like remarkable piece of filmmaking which is not something you hear me say very often

and like a good movie and I think that there is a real distinction between the two I actually would agree 100% she said it better than I did

yes it did it. Incredible filmmaking, pretty good movie. This is an unusual way to talk about a movie because a lot of time, I think mostly what we respond to films differently. Usually we're looking for the emotional hook and we're not thinking about the way that a movie is made. 1917 really foregrounded its presentation. In fact, a featurette about how they made this movie was released before the movie was released wide. And so there was a lot of awareness about how they captured, for example, that famous climactic running sequence. And there is like a kind of effortfulness in the filmmaking that makes this movie seem like an important kind of film.

Yeah, sure. Chris, I feel like you don't like to know too much about what's going on behind the curtain before you see something. Did that affect your viewing of the movie? Because Amanda and I saw this, I think, back in November. And it was a little bit more of a shock to you guys. We didn't really know very much about it.

I certainly didn't watch the featurette. I watched the trailer once and was like, I don't want to think about this anymore until I see it. I think I'd seen the gif of Deacon's running. And I knew that it was a one-take adventure. But that was about it. It think I'd seen the gif of Deacon's running and I knew that it was a one take adventure, but that was about it. It did really bother me. I like to go into movies with knowing as little as possible,

which is obviously ironic considering the job that we do here, but if I have the chance I'll go into a film just as cold as possible. I usually watch like one trailer and I try to do a lot of behind the scenes featurettes before I see movies. With this one I felt felt like, you know, there's nothing you can criticize

about the way the film was made. I mean, I think you could make an argument about... I wanted to know from you guys, why do it as a one-er? What made this movie special? Aside from the physical, technical achievement, did it somehow explain to you did it did it improve the story i don't have an answer to this this is also my number one question about it so i have an answer i don't know if it's going to be an adequate answer for what you guys want out of

a movie i think the reason is because it's a movie of forward progress every step counts it's a man on a mission movie and it happens in a contained period of time in the film we're told it should take eight hours ultimately we don't know how long it takes because it blacks out right exactly but because of that forward progress every step forward is something that can be captured so theoretically there is a logistical storytelling reason to do it in this way now obviously the real reason to do it this way is because it's a great gimmick it's something easy to sell it's very exciting it's it's a challenge gimmick. It's something easy to sell. It's very exciting. It's a challenge,

I think, probably creatively for the people who worked on the movie. I mean, this is a $100 million movie with thousands of artisans working on it. If you look at the credits, it's crazy.

For somebody like, obviously, Mendes is best known for his work in character drama and for his work on the stage. Deakins is known as a capturer of great images, of kind of like daring beautiful vistas and

I could see it as just a kind of a flex. You know Chris when you've had a day when you make four podcasts and it's like Chris we need you in the studio for the fifth. You get in there and you say I want to do a one take cut. You know I don't want to be interrupted. I want to show you the mastery of my craft. And I actually thought that the first

half of the movie till about when after he gets off the truck with Mark Strong, I thought that that made a lot of sense. I felt like I was going along every single step. The idea that one trench would be an up trench and they're going down it and everything about the tunnels and the rat in the bag

and I felt like all those steps were incredibly well accounted for. And then it just starts to get a little fast and loose when it's jumping into waterfalls. And, you know, how long have I been asleep for and stuff like that. How conscious of it did you feel, Amanda, while you were watching the movie? Were you eyeballing every shot to see where the camera was moving? No, because I don't normally watch films that way. And, you know, I hadn't lived in it for two months, as I think a lot of people who have been like following the Oscars but hadn't been able to see

the movie have. But I was a little bit aware of it. And I was somewhat skeptical going into this because, as you guys know, I get a little impatient with like the fussy athletic aspects of, wow, what a feat of filmmaking. Just, you know, I mean, in a lot of ways, the way that people talk about filmmaking can sometimes be like going to war. And so this I was just kind of like, I don't really support the troops, support the cinematographers. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, one of the one of the many things I like about Deakins is that he doesn't

usually participate in that. He's just kind of like, I'm just trying to trying to get the shot, trying to trying to make a good story. But so I was not watching the shots in part because I was like, I'm not really interested in how they did this. I'd like to have the experience. And to that end, especially as Chris said, the first 45 minutes, really until the blackout, it was working for me. I did find myself paying attention to the story decisions that have to be made to support this type of

filmmaking and I would like to talk a little bit more about that at some point because I do think that it gets in the way but not gets in the way but you become aware of what they're doing there are a lot of coincidences how about that I completely agree with you um yeah are you like more 100 approval rating on this where are you? I think I'm more easily enchanted by some of the technical feats of the movie while acknowledging that it's not that hard to do

something if you have enough money and enough people and enough time you know most films just don't have this is a big budget studio war movie it is the most like classical Hollywood thing that can be made and so it's not that it's so difficult you know big budget studio war movie. It is the most like classical Hollywood thing that can be made. And so it's not that it's so difficult,

you know, financially or even creatively per se, but just the doing of it is difficult. And if you watch some of that behind the scenes work, you can see that not just these incredible shots of George McKay's character racing across the, you know, across the trench mid battle, but all of the trench work, all of the choreography, all of the things, everything that apes Paths of Glory

and everything that apes All Quiet on the Western Front and the way that they're pulling from all this history of war movies, I think is impressive. I watched the movie for a second time over the weekend to prepare for this, and it really just does not work on a rewatch. It's actually not fun to watch because all the tricks are evident. You're looking for every cut.

The story is very thin. And once you know exactly where it's going, it doesn't really hold up very well. That doesn't necessarily take away from the feeling I had the first time I watched it, which was a real wow. So I saw it this weekend in the theater and then I went back and rewatched it a little bit

on a screener and I was like, oh God, like the first time you see the tripwire scene in the tunnel, you're like, you jump out of your seat. And the first time the plane is coming towards the bar and you're just like, that's not happening. Is it? Oh my God. Those were the two scenes in particular that played way less effectively for me the second time.

And I think that knowing where the story is going and knowing the kind of boss levels of British character actors that he meets along the way. And, you know, I got to say, we could get into this, but the presence of people like Andrew Scott

don't do the two guys, the two main characters any favors because you basically are like, stop the camera. Like, I want to hang out with these guys in this dugout and find out why he's throwing holy water at their backpacks.

Really? Can we talk about George McKay? Sure. I don't want to jump ahead, but I was like blown away by him. And I have not revisited the movie, which I don't know that I will. And I think I had an ideal experience where I went to see it. I was affected by it. I thought he was astounding. I was like, I don't know who that is. I need to Google that person. I need to find out everything that he's doing. And I just kind of enjoyed the

dollops of the other guys. But maybe I'm alone in that. Well, I think he's very good. I don't think there's any question about him being a good actor or not i think he is not given much to do that charms you and i think like when you do see andrew scott on screen he's like he's a charm machine obviously coming off a fleabag we now have a relationship with him and as the hot priest i'm personally less um emotionally invested in colin firth or benedict cumberbatch those are not my favorite actors in the world i know you're probably a much bigger fan of both of them than I am. I'm a huge Colin Firth fan. And I was like, okay, so he's just- You're not a batch bro? I enjoy, I'm not a batch bro. Okay. Yeah. That's not how I would identify myself. Did it take you out of the movie at all? Like

when Richard Madden shows up, is it like, oh, like we've been saving this? No, I was more like, who's it going to be? Who is the brother going to be? And I was maybe just gave into the emotions at that point. I was pretty affected by it. I don't know. I guess I'm kind of basic. But as soon as he's sprinting and that you get the full deacon, the music swelling, I was kind of like, OK, wow, this is powerful. Wow, war movies.

And then I thought that was nice. And then it was over. And frankly, I never really thought about the movie again. It's interesting that the last two major war movies, especially that we've discussed around these parts, but I think in general, the last two major war films have been 1917 and Dunkirk. And both have been in their own different ways. I think Dunkirk's a much better film than this. largely concerned with the spectacle of war rather than the sort of inner character workings or the particular personalities of the characters involved.

You're more of a Hacksaw Ridge guy, ultimately. No, but I think that that is actually the sort of... The Catch-22 with making a war movie, to use another war story, is the idea that when you mount a production about a war, you're almost seduced by

the spectacle of what you're going to show and the set pieces of what you're going to show rather than the people involved, because you really are trying to make this statement with your war film for all, for all the fact that like people are like, Oh, saving private Ryan sort of falls off a little bit after they get off the beach. That is where you find out about who these people are going on this journey. You know, it's very true. Before we go too far into the story and the acting, I think it's probably important to talk just a little bit about the kind of craftsmanship of the movie. So obviously Deakins really feels like the co-author of the movie to me in a lot of ways. Nothing against Christy Cairns-Wilson, the co-writer of the screenplay, or Sam Mendes,

the director. But it feels like a movie that without Deakins' classical design set against modern technology, which I think is kind of an important thing to talk about with him. He shoots on digital, unlike some of his contemporaries who do not like to shoot on digital. He's very inventive with how the camera can move.

He'll set it on a crane, then move it into a camera operator's hands, and then attach it to a truck, all in the same shot. He's very balletic in that way. Chris and Amanda, when you guys think of the shots, the photography of Roger Deakins, what do you think of? Well, there's a Deakins quote that I really, really like, which is, well, there's two actually that I wanted to mention in talking about his work. One is people confuse pretty with good cinematography, which is not the same thing.

And I think a lot of the times, especially in the last like maybe 10 years or so as it's become more popular, like, you know, there was that explosion of like film Tumblr where people were just always doing like these screenshots or- The one perfect shotification. Yeah, exactly. That there was a kind of homogenization

of how we thought about cinematography or what we thought of was good cinematography, which is like, look at this amazing shot from this Terrence Malick movie. And you can see the dandelion blowing in the wind or whatever. And the other thing that Deakins has said before is that reality doesn't have to be naturalistic, which I've always really, really liked that idea that I think we think of realism as verite, handheld, showing grime, available light, like kind of like a sort of spontaneity to it. And there's nothing spontaneous about Deakins' work. I mean, you can tell that everything is planned down to the centimeter, but it still feels realistic,

even if it's not naturalistic. And so those are the two things. And I think that they're both on display in 1917 where it feels like a realistic war movie even if it doesn't feel naturalistic. What about you, Amanda? Yeah, I think I agree with Chris. As I said, a thing that I like, I don't have a lot of patience for fussiness in any walk of life,

but especially when it comes to talking about filmmaking and when the seams are showing or when it comes to talking about filmmaking and when the seams are showing or when it's like, oh, look at this camera angle or look at this framing. And as Chris said, everything in Deakins is extremely planned and composed. And I don't mean to take away from the work, but it is in the service of the story. And I think of the image as opposed to paying attention to the camera itself. And I respond to that. I do also think there are just some aesthetic things that, you know, I do. I prefer it when people film outside or film with what looks like natural light, even

if it's not. And, you know, the landscapes and the it's just kind of my taste. Yeah. I mean, he definitely has his visual signatures. He has his hallmarks. Those hallmarks are kind of up and down this film as well. Those sort of vistas that you're talking about, Amanda. These really wide shots that are not shot on an anamorphic lens, which is unusual to use a spherical lens like that on those shots is very strange because he's fitting a lot in the frame without using the traditional technology that you would use to do that.

Yeah. A lot of helicopter shots, a lot in the frame without using the traditional technology that you would use to do that. A lot of helicopter shots, a lot of cars on lonely roads, you know, a lot of explosions with close-ups in the fore of the frame and like crazy activity

going on in the background of the frame that's also happening in this movie. And he's like the master of the silhouette. He's the master of something, a shadow set against a burning building

or, you know, famously, the No Country for Old Men shot of Josh Brolin's character sort of running through the darkness. Like that is, those are like the deacon's motifs that you see over and over again. A lot of them are used here to good effect, I think.

There's some other kind of craftsman-like aspects of this movie that are notable. The editing was not nominated at the Oscars, thank God, even though it just won best editing at the Critics' Choice Awards because Lee Smith edited this movie that are notable. The editing was not nominated at the Oscars, thank God, even though it just won Best Editing at the Critics' Choice Awards. Because Lee Smith edited this movie. He also edited Dunkirk. Lee Smith is Christopher Nolan's editor of choice. But the editing is predetermined here. The editing is done in the camera. It's all done in the camera. The camera movement determines the pace of the film. So, you know, Lee Smith is a gifted editor. If you want to learn about that, watch Dunkirk.

It's not based on the work in this movie. The digital photography, I know, Lee Smith is a gifted editor. If you want to learn about that, watch Dunkirk. It's not based on the work in this movie. The digital photography, I think, actually just helps this for obvious reasons. You just wouldn't be able to make this movie if you didn't use a digital camera. If you used a giant, bulky Panavision 35mm camera, you wouldn't be able to get any of these shots. You'd also have, would you still have to stop every 10 minutes or have they made the magazines bigger? That I don't know.

But I mean, they're not reproducing new film technology in this way. So it just would have been way harder to make the movie. You know, you described Deakins as the co-author of this movie in some ways, you know, like, and I think that that is the thing I think about whenever his name comes up is his impeccable taste. I mean, pretty much since the early 90s, he had that moment where he does Air America, this very bad Robert Downey Jr. Mel Gibson movie about, um, the CIA in Vietnam that, but they play it as like a buddy comedy. Uh, and he almost quits Hollywood and then he gets Barton Fink in the early nineties. And then since then is batting like nine 80, you know what I mean? Like he kind of has like one or two movies where you're like well

that's not the best movie I've ever seen but a lot of them are in the conversation you know and all of his work with the Coens with Denis Villeneuve and with Sam Mendes and you get through and you're just like well so am I really responding to Deakins's taste or am I actually responding to the fact that Deakins is making my favorite filmmakers that much better? It's an interesting question about what role a cinematographer plays in the execution of a movie. Every movie is different.

Some people, the director composes all the shots and maybe they use someone who functions essentially as a camera operator. And sometimes, it's a true collaboration. Sam Mendes is not as say technically gifted

a film director as some of his contemporaries because he's a theater director and so he depends on people like Deakins to help him make his movies

I don't think that's besmirching Sam Mendes in any way to say that I did also as I was going through the filmography start wondering at what point your taste just becomes

Deakins taste you know like I can't separate the two because I know I respond to those certain signature shots and that has become what quote good cinematography is to me. But he's that prolific and that good that often. You're a big fan

of the reader? Yeah. It's also like it sounds like in a lot of these cases he's involved in a way where it's not like I'm not bringing this person on to set the lights of that day and to choose a camera operating team. He's involved, if you read about the making of Blade Runner 2049, which obviously was not a perfect film by any means, it sounds like Deakins was involved from the earliest stages of pre-production and conceptualization and

looking at the architecture that they were going to try and replicate in that movie. So when you see a film shot by Roger Deakins, more often than not, I think you could consider him with the directors and writers like the author of the film. I totally agree. Do you guys think that there's just a little bit of a, there's a tyranny of the one right now that is dominating movies too much? Yes.

No? Chris? Yeah. I mean, I think it's like the it's like the three-pointer. It's the one thing that seems to get valued. You know? It's like, oh, cool.

Like, we've decided that this is like how we express what. Like, what are we trying to express with a one-er? You know, it's like more often than not. It's a tick-measuring contest.

Yeah, exactly. It's not about It is. It is. But it's not about evoking anything that's in the script or in the performances to show you something. Yeah, exactly. It's not about, but it's not about evoking anything that's in the script or in the performances to show you something. Oh, okay. This is what it's like to go through this entire process unbroken or whatever. It's about, oh, I conceptualized the set so that like we could do Birdman and like go up and down these stairs and outside of the theater

and back in because what? Who knows? Yeah. I think in some cases it can be used purely as a visceral explanation, right? In Children of Men, that very famous shot is just to show you how harrowing the scene is in many ways. In The Irishman this year, it's a self-note, you know? It's an aspect of Scorsese's own career that he's commenting on and playing with. And it's not this virtuosic move inside the film. It's a note that these things are all sort of interconnected and the life is long and painful, et cetera. This one is like definitional.

It's like there is no movie without this aspect. I don't think it's going to age well, but I don't think oners are going anywhere anytime soon. Maybe much to your chagrin. I actually don't mind the actual oner itself. It is the conversation around it and the fact that it just assigns importance automatically to things that perhaps haven't earned it. I wouldn't underestimate a generation of people raised on first-person shooters, too, making movies now. I think there is, like, inherently a video game quality to this movie and I think if you look at

the fan reaction to the movie very early on it's very male it's very aggressive it's very clearly like this is my kind of movie. You know

like the 1917 reply guys are a real thing. It's a big thing. It's like a whole community it started instantly. Yeah. I watched Manola Dargis joust with them all weekend.

On Twitter? Yes. About what? About her negative review of 1917 as an empty exercise. instantly yeah i watched manola dargis joust with them all weekend on twitter yes about what about her negative review of 1917 as a as an empty exercise and what were the dudes who were like team 1917 colonel severson for life saying they were saying you don't know anything about movies and i do because i played call of duty right and also like you're a woman you wouldn't understand. And, you know, movies about war and men and filmmaking are important. It was like conflating all of the things. Okay. Under the wrong circumstances, and I don't think that this is actually fair for 1917 to be cast in this light, but there is a slightly Gamergate quality to some of the potential discourse of this movie. Now, I hope it does not get there because it's a good movie.

Like, I think all three of us actually quite like it. But... I think I liked it the most of anybody. I think you did. That's so weird. What? Well, you've only watched it once. That's true.

That's the secret, guys. All your burners went to work this weekend. Amanda's just like, I hate 1917 Twitter. It's like, meanwhile, it's like... I do worry... Battle of the Son, yeah. I do worry a little bit, though, if it wins Best Picture, how it will be ripped from the hands of its creators and to become this sort of cause celeb for something different and slightly more toxic.

We'll see. Maybe I'm just being a little bit. No, I think that's true. And even if we don't need to talk about the online little mob any more than we already have. But I do think if it wins, then it becomes just a different, a referendum on the type of movies that we value and the type of filmmaking

that we value, especially in this year, that it is maybe not built to live up to. Before we, we should probably say what doesn't work about the movie. There are some things

that do not work about the movie. Robust list here. There's a robust list of things that seem much more evident to me the second time watching it, as I mentioned. So the story is very simple. Blake and Schofield are going from point A to point B. That's it.

They're just meant to inform the Devins that the Germans have set them up and their oncoming attack is, I don't know, anticipated? Because they cut the wires, so they can't just be like, yo, Benedict, don't do that. Exactly. So one thing you really learn here is that the character development is not very strong in the film. We don't know very much about these men. We don't know very much about what drives them.

Every time they do speak, it seems to be highly metaphorical. I want to cite, for example, the sequence in which they encounter some felled cherry blossoms, which is, upon second viewing, one of the worst scenes in this movie. And I tell you, in the first watch, it wasn't strong emotional. Is that the one where the guy's like, they will grow out of the stones even stronger? Yes. Tom and Baratheon is explaining the history of cherries. And it's just, it's not, it's not what you want in your movie. You know, the passage of time is a tricky thing. We mentioned earlier that it seems like it's supposed to take eight hours, maybe with his

waterfall shortcut, he chopped a couple hours. If he gets the truck and the waterfall, that's a nice little like, whoop. How do you do it like as an endurance runner? Like, can you run for four hours? You're asking me that I'm asking you Amanda if I had to probably I mean I would like have to walk

and then run so no the answer is no also it's just the footwear in this it's like wet boots imagine the blisters

there is a great shot that zooms in on their feet walking through the mud just as they arrive at the German camp you know when you get X'd out

when when they hit the milk that's right can't do milk. No milk for me. They will grow old because they drank milk. My lukewarmest milk take. That's you.

Nice. Well done. What are some of the Deus Ex Machina moments that you wanted to cite? I mean, the truck that shows up right after the whole, the plane, which also, by the way, like you were surprised by the plane i guess but as soon as the plane was in the air i was like that plane is coming to you guys run oh i know i just didn't expect like the german guy to jump out and and continue his being super german once he got out of the plane then you know i thought he was gonna be like god thank god i got out of there

man and he turned out to be the red bear. I had a Wednesday. Let me tell you. Okay. But so that happens. And then the, and Tommen, we're spoiling. Okay. Tommen dies.

And I think that that's sort of, that's a sad scene. And again, I really connected to George McKay. So I was very moved by that. And then the camera just like pans, right at 30 seconds later, there are like 800 British soldiers. Yeah. And you're just like, Oh at 30 seconds later there are like 800 British soldiers The British army is there?

Yeah and you're just like oh what bad timing Yeah they're all urinating against a wall which is an interesting cut I was impressed by

Dean Charles Chapman who plays Blake in the film his ability to turn white as he died Yeah that was a good one Was there some digital

coloration going on there? His face is going white. Really kind of fascinating. Upon second viewing, I really struggled with the French woman and the baby in a cousse that was not just completely unnecessary and feels like something we've seen in war movies a hundred times. That's what I'm saying. Yeah. Well, maybe it is. Right, because they set the milk up so he can have it to the baby

that's right for anyone who's listening to this podcast and has not heard the hottest take I am not a fan of milk or just like lived with Sean for the past

like six months um I also the blackout can we talk about the blackout sure because that's both like the passage of time

and you mean when he goes up to seek out the sniper yes and the sniper shoots Yes. And the sniper shoots him? Or, like,

what actually happens there? Why does he black out? I assumed he got nicked or maybe he fell over or hit his head. I've only seen this once. Sheer exhaustion? Well, he falls back.

Yeah. So I don't know what actually happened to him. Did he just hit his head? It seemed like he was fired at. So, that has been a little unclear to me after both viewings yeah um that's and you don't want something like that to

be unclear if he took a bullet that's notable right if he didn't i don't know yeah what else that just that stood out to me in terms of manipulating the machinery and then you know the whole thing with the night time after i guess he deals with the baby i haven't seen this twice so you can connect me you can correct me but the night time duel with the other soldier and then he's in the room with the one guy who's really drunk and tells the other guy not to shoot i don't know i just he would be dead he would be dead so i just want to underline that, that that was kind of,

that was in the service of storytelling. And there were a few moments like that, more moments like that. I know that there is also, yeah, I don't want to like unwind the actual premise of the movie, especially if it has like, you know, strong personal resonance for Sam Mendes. I'm not trying to be like,

this was a bad idea in the first place, but just be like, if you only send two guys and you're like the chances of them even making it out of your area are pretty slim, maybe have a plan B. Yeah. Oh, another one is when they find the people in the woods and there's like a song and then he's like, I'm looking for this division. And they're like, we are that division. And the song thing, I guess that was moving. I don't like it when people sing in movies and that this was also when I was like oh you're a theater director like this is a real theater moment like we're just like pausing for some you know beautiful Shakespearean loot whatever it's very it was very like Lord of the Rings like when the when when the hobbits sing like right

before honestly the whole movie is very Lord of the Rings I've seen it compared to many times now to the Sam and Frodo aspect of the Lord of the Rings story. It's two guys, one tall, one short, on a quest to deliver a message. Is there a tall Hobbit? I think Frodo is a little bit taller than Sam. Yeah, he's more the Jeff Green of the Hobbit world.

That's right. Are you Googling Jeff Green? No, I'm Googling who's the Sam in the Lord of the Rings. Who is Sam? he's Sean Astin he's Rudy you can just ask us I have to be honest let me tell you something

as time goes by this is a major digression I apologize are you going to say Lord of the Rings is good it's fucking good no shit especially compared

to like Star Wars where that went Game of Thrones where that went Lord of the Rings that first trilogy is excellent. Yes.

It deserves actually more respect and it won Best Picture. And I think people still love it. We're talking about the movie and not about Tolkien. Well, the books are good too. I like the books. Did you think that he was just like, oh no. I thought for once we could talk about literature and put things in its proper context. God forbid. Tune in to Ringer Lit. God forbid.

Tune in to Ringer Lit for Amanda's review of all the Tolkien podcasts. I actually, never mind. I had to read The Hobbit in one day for summer reading when I was a kid. Because you hadn't read it? I know, Sean. I didn't have a good time. Because my parents, I tried to rebel and not do my homework for once, which is the theme on this podcast.

And my parents were like, no, now you will read The Hobbit. And I had to read that whole thing in a day. It could have been worse. I had to read Watership Down in one day. Oh, that's tough. Because I totally forgot I was supposed to do that. That's really upsetting. Where do you stand on the Silmarillion? I don't know what that is.

That's like the index, right? No, it's a sequel story. Oh, is it? Yeah. The other thing is when I studied classics, and so I took some Greek along with Latin. And one day my Greek professor was like, instead of doing Greek today, we're going to learn Elvish. Yeah. Whoa.

And just started like diagramming because Tolkien borrowed from Greek in order to create that language, which apparently has its own language system. But that was a tough morning for me. I had a teacher like that who would just put Spartacus on in history class and then go to take a nap every time. It's funny that you mentioned that. I do have the strong sensation that 1917 will be the kind of movie that lazy seventh grade history teachers put on to teach people about the Great War.

Yes, exactly. Anything else to say about the weaknesses of the movie? I feel like, you know, these are, I wouldn't say they're nitpicks, but they're what you said. They're deus ex machina choices that make the story go forward ultimately. And that's kind of what's scratching at us. Yeah.

And I do think that you become aware of the story sacrifices that have been made in order to serve the technical aspects of this movie. And that it is more, it's more of an exercise than it is a story all the time. I do think it's still going to be a very big hit. It had a big opening weekend. It's a reason to go to the movie theater. Absolutely. Can we talk about the big climactic sequence, though, when he's running?

Of course. You want to celebrate it? Yeah, I thought that was... I just was very moved by it. And I don't know, like, why are you laughing at me just because I opened my heart to film? I moved you into being on 1917 islands it's like rook takes pawn too life is full of surprises but i i did also think that

if we do a rewatchables like the poster will just be you as both kids in 1917 and shawn and me in the plane flying through did you know that that when George Mackay ran into the two guys and fell down as he was racing across that that was not planned yeah

that's pretty amazing but the rule was that they just have to keep going until someone says stop so he just kept up and got going I don't know I just thought that

obviously that is the climactic sequence and it's supposed to be emblematic of like what works in this movie but you know the pacing and he's he's walking down and you don't know if he's gonna find everybody and then it just kind of opens up and i did feel like my subconscious deacons like alert really went off

and i i was quite moved by it i'm with you i'm only a man made of flesh and bone like what that sequence is unbelievable it's. It's so exciting. I think that there's... You know, I was thinking about this a lot with Ford versus Ferrari where it's just like there's so many parts of Ford versus Ferrari that even though you know what you're watching is like

textbook dad movie corn dog stuff, you're just like, man, put a camera in front of a car. That looks pretty good. You know, and there are certain things that still trigger your sense. Like they get really inside your brain when you see them. It really does. of a car. That looks pretty good. You know, and there are certain things that still trigger your sense, like you're, they get really inside your brain when you see them.

It really does. So then after that sequence, you get Cumberbatch, who you love, which was a great moment for you at the end of the movie. That was amazing for you. Last man standing.

I don't care. I mean, I think he seems good. I haven't seen his Marvel movie. At Doctor Strange 1917, Amanda's burner. That's right.

Oh my God. Remember when we did the superhero draft and Micah drafted Doctor Strange first? And I was like, who is that? Interesting time for Benedict Cumberbatch. Doctor Strange in the multiverse of madness does not have a director, but he does have a role in potential Best Picture winner. World War I movies. Where does it stack up? There's been,

obviously last year, They Shall Not Grow Old was actually quite a fascinating movie. Speaking of Peter Jackson, this all ties together. Paths of Glory, Kubrick's movie, one of my favorite movies ever.

All Quiet on the Western Front, Lawrence of Arabia, Grand Illusion, Wings, Gallipoli. You've got Wonder Woman down here, Amanda. You made a whole list

and I added one. Can I put a special shout out to Regeneration, which is a I haven't seen that. British film from 1997 based on the Pat Barker novels,

which were about Siegfried Sassoon, the poet who went and fought in World War I and wrote quite a bit of poetry about it. And it was just about these three, three friends who went to go fight in World War I. It's really lovely movie.

Is it better than 1917, Chris? Rank it, please. Um, I think it's an interesting example of like what 1917 doesn't do, which is like these character studies of these people and how they were changed by what went through, what, what, what they went through. That is the, but you know, not every movie has to be the same it's true that is i would argue the significant flaw of the movie is you ultimately are not emotionally connected to schofield um you disagree you guys are monsters okay i mean i don't think it develops the characters at all and like i said i think this is ultimately i don't think it develops the characters at all. And like I said, I think this is ultimately... I don't want him to die. Yeah, I connected to him.

I thought he was great. Though I do think that ultimately this movie is just more about the technical achievements. I agree. So quickly, the Oscar implications of this movie before we go deep into Deakins' career. 16 war movies have won Best Picture. That honestly seems low to me. It's been a long time. It's been 10 years since a war movie won Best Picture.

Do you know what that is? One of your favorites. Not Saving Private Ryan. Nope, 10 years. Oh, last 10 years? No, I can't remember. The Hurt Locker. Oh, how about that?

So recent winners include The English Patient, Braveheart, Schindler's List, Platoon, The Deer Hunter, Saving Private Ryan famously did not win. It lost to Shakespeare in Love. Forgot about that. This is interesting because we are not really as much of a war-like people as we were 10 or 20 or 40 years ago. I'm not going to politicize this conversation, but I do think that everything that happened in Iran in the last 10 days and the public response to that incident indicates that there is

less emotional commitment to the idea of sacrifice in a war than there was in Hollywood, at least 50 years ago, when it felt like when commemorating World War II, when there were still a significant amount of survivors in a war like that. I do feel like things culturally in this country, and that is not to denigrate anybody who serves or anything like that. That's not really what I'm trying to say. I'm just trying to say our interest in this sort of story, I feel

like has been somewhat diminished culturally. That's a really interesting point. So I would argue that the films about Vietnam tended to articulate a pretty anti-war message. Yes, that's actually not what I'm saying. Okay. I'm not saying that they're...

I'm not saying that you think that these are pro-war, but they sort of memorialize the experience of going to war in a way that kind of... I think the abstract nature of war in America for the last 10 years has changed the country's relationship to war, and particularly the way that pop culture kind of cycles it. So the conflict in Afghanistan is horrible and has been ongoing for over 10 years and seems inescapable in many ways. But it's much more difficult to wrap our minds around than the bayonet riddled 1917. It's just a different sort of fighting. Whereas in 1998, when Saving Private Ryan came

out, the reference was still World War II and Greatest Generation and, to Chris's point, Vietnam. Exactly. And I'm not even really making a sweeping statement here. I just think it's interesting because I feel like there are fewer war movies than ever. And there are not as many of those sort of fusty miniseries on TV about this sort of thing. This movie is weirdly a rarity. It's partially because studios don't want to make them, but I do think it's partially because our relationship to war has changed a lot. Sure. So it'll be interesting to see where, as, you know, in the 90s and the 80s,

these movies were hailed routinely, if this thing will go all the way. You guys got up with the sunrise to start talking about the Oscars this morning. Is this the. Is this the third way candidate? Is this is this the like, you know what? Nobody's going to be mad if 1917 wins. It's interesting. I don't know whether this is the third way candidate or whether once upon a time is the third way.

And I also don't know whether the third way is the one that will win. Like if Joker is one side and say Parasite is the other. To this occupy. I do honestly think there's a real 1917 contingent on its own. Independent of Joker. It's not like oh it's my second

favorite movie of a lot of people. It's actually people who are like. I mean there's obviously just a huge amount of craft support. With good reason because a lot of people. Yeah, I do think there's I mean, there's obviously just a huge amount of craft support with with good reason, because a lot of people worked very hard on this and and they pulled it off. And then I do I do think there's an an older part of the Academy that still responds to serious war movie as like what the Oscars are about. I agree with Amanda. I think that there's the Academy is still very old.

Despite everything I just said about our relationship to movies like this right now, there's still a significant amount of people who are connected to this kind of storytelling. I think there's huge, huge support for Deakins.

Huge. At the screening that I went to in November, it was like a shotgun blast standing ovation for him. People rose to their feet immediately when he walked out for the Q&A and were roaring for him. And we'll explain why when we get to doing his Hall of Fame shortly. You know, this is really the most wide open best picture I can remember.

I thought that last year when Green Book seemed like it was bizarrely creeping into the lead, but I couldn't really take that seriously. After the Globes, when Bohemian Rhapsody and Green Book won, I think I wrote a column that was literally like, this is the most wide-open Best Picture race I can remember. This is actually the most wide-open Best Picture that I can remember. Because I don't know if there is a single authentically prohibitive favorite in the mix. Feels like four movies that are all three to one. I agree with that, except I wonder how much of that is us reading what we want into the race

instead of it being like it's Joker or it's Joker in 1917. Could be. Could be. And you know, and I can really see a world in which Joker in 1917 split Best Picture, Best Director. Do you guys ever feel like the thing that makes it wide open is the fact that you're almost emotionally like open to a number of movies winning? You know what I mean? Like some years it's a binary. It's like, it can't be this. It has to be this. Yes. Then some years where it's like, well, you know, I'd be happy if Marriage Story won. I'd be happy if Irishman won. I'd be happy if Parasite won. I'd be happy if Once Upon a Time won. It's a very good question. I'm pretty open-minded about almost every movie winning, which is rare. The year was just that good. I think that there is

an inherent panic related to what happens if Joker wins because of the dialogue around that movie. But, and I said it earlier this morning, like even Joker winning, Joker is like a lot better than a lot of movies that have won Best Picture. We can't overlook that this is the Oscars. You know, this is not the Pulitzer Prize the the the grade inflation here is significant so yeah that's probably a big part of it and i i see like six or seven possibilities on best picture which is so unusual i'm less open-minded about joker but but only again because there are so it was i thought it was such a great movie yeah and there and there are so many movies that like made movies that made it close enough that got nominated for Best Picture that I'm so excited about. Especially, there is something about a Joker 1917 combo that even though Joker is a comic book movie and those films have not had a lot of success traditionally at the Oscars, it feels like really old school. It feels like, oh, you know, we made all this progress or whatever.

Things have changed, except like we're still rewarding these same types of movies. I think the only thing that wouldn't feel old school winning, though. Well, two things. I think Little Women wouldn't feel old school. And I think Parasite wouldn't feel old school. Little Women would feel slightly old school. I mean, things with hoop skirts have definitely won Oscars before. Now, like I would argue that Greta Gerwig entirely renovated and resuscitated that genre,

but it has hallmarks. Right. But it's true for so many Irishmen once upon a time in Hollywood, even Jojo Rabbit to some extent, given that being a World War II story and the nature of kind of colliding comedy and drama, like the way that Ernst Lubitsch would.

There's a lot of historicity, I think, in the race this year. Parasite's the only movie where it's like, this is a movie made, produced, funded in Asia. There is not precedent for a movie like that rising to the top of the heap. So we'll see. Shall we talk about Roger Deakins?

Yeah. Chris, this is your first Hall of Fame. In the fall, Amanda and I did an episode about Tom Hanks. We looked at Tom Hanks' entire filmography. Except for the 21st century because Bill's wiped that map. No, no. We talked about the 21st century, which is important. Did we include any films from the 21st century?

Captain Phillips, did that make the cut? I think maybe at the end of the day, we put A Beautiful Day because he was good. Did we? I think so. Okay. Well, he's Oscar nominated for that film. So if we did, then that's fine. And also, he was very good as Mr. Rogers.

He's a wonderful actor, Tom Hanks. So we did a Hall of Fame episode about Tom Hanks. We chose his 10 essential performances. Deakins, we're going to choose 10 movies. Now, looking at his work, I mean, he has been the director of photography on well over 40 films. Closer to 50 films. He's got an interesting career.

Now, I would assume, and you guys correct me if I'm wrong, we're not going to be choosing any movies from the first phase of his career. The documentary stuff? Documentaries and shorts made in England. So essentially the first about 10 years. I mean, this is a collaborative effort.

We're not at war with each other. So if you want to nominate something, Yeah, if you want to do like... If you at least want to put it... Because we'll go through and everyone can say, I think this should be in consideration. At the end, we make cuts. I can't pretend to have seen a lot of these films.

So I just don't know. Maybe his work on the Zimbabwe documentary. He spent a lot of time in Africa making documentaries in the early part of his career. Maybe it's brilliant. I don't know. Maybe his work on the Zimbabwe documentary. He spent a lot of time in Africa making documentaries in the early part of his career. Maybe it's brilliant. I don't know. I don't even know where I would find it.

I'm not sure how I could watch it. A lot of these films are smaller. He's famously said make documentaries first then shoot features which is interesting

for such a compositional mind. So we're going to essentially move past the first phase of his career. Okay. And you know maybe that's something that we'd all like to do. We'd all like to move past the first phase of first phase of his career okay and and you know maybe that's something that we'd all like to do we'd all like to move past the first phase of our

no i peaked really you did yeah you gotta you gotta go back to my my early 20s to find the good stuff you are literally the number one case in my life for just give it some time because he will grow into a beautiful rose uh phase two, the English features. Now, this is a very important period. England at this time and the films that are made at this time, kind of fascinating.

Who are like significant figures in this moment? Stephen Frears, people like that. Alex Cox. Alex Cox. Alex Cox works with Deakins here.

I would say, to me, there's only one majorly significant work in this time and that's Sid and Nancy, the Alex Cox movie. Amazing movie. Amazing movie.

And goes towards what we were talking about before with naturalism versus realism. There's a lot of seemingly very realistic moments in Sid and Nancy that are obviously, if you watch them painterly in their composition, you think about the opening of that movie with Sid Vicious being let out of the Chelsea Hotel and it feels like, oh, it's like handheld and it feels like it's like newsreel footage, but actually like, you know, he comes back around Sid Vicious and then you can see like the light pouring in from the lobby windows. It's just gorgeous.

And it's as beautiful as stuff in Skyfall. It's just completely different. Yeah, and the same, you're right, that same 360 degree technique that he uses in 1917 so as not to break the shot where he literally circles a character and so he can change perspectives and move in a different direction. He does that instead of Nancy 35, 36 years ago. Pretty amazing. We're slightly overlooking 1984, which is probably the first big, big movie that he works on.

I got to say, I'm not a big fan of the 1984 adaptation. I don't know if you guys have seen that. I have not. This was actually shown to me in high school. It's quite severe and painful to watch and did not really capture some of the fascinating totalitarian

wonder of the novel. Anyhow, that's an important movie and I would guess it's the kind of movie that got him on an upward trajectory in Hollywood. But we'll choose Sid and Nancy. Any other bids for the English features? Stormy Monday.

No. No? I'm just kidding. Her side. So then we'll go to phase three. Okay. Coming to America. Now, this is intense.

This is a little bit like the last 10 years of LeBron. You know, it's like like show me a bad season show me a bad moment there's not a lot so famously he comes to America on a movie called Mountains of the Moon which was directed by

Bob Rafelson who made five easy pieces and a bunch of great movies in the 70s it's probably best known for starring Ian Glenn who is the number one heartthrob

of Mallory Rubin's life I think this is the old is it number one is it complicated he's up Rubin's life. I think this is the only... Is it number one? Is it complicated? He's up there. It's either Baby Yoda or Ian Glenn or who else is on

Mal's Loveless. Lamar Jackson. Lamar Jackson. And... That's not romantic love. No. It transcends it, though. Mountains of the Moon

is an okay movie. It's fine. But this does signal that Deakins is going to stay. Chris, you mentioned the Air America story. Sort of bungled buddy comedy set in the world of the CIA. Not making my list.

The Long Walk Home, not making my list. Then we get to Homicide. Very cool movie. So I feel like this is really where his legend starts to grow because it's this movie and the work that he does in this movie that the Coen brothers see, that John Say john sales sees this is an early david mammet movie that is essentially like a crime procedural is it joe montana is he the star yeah i mean it's it's basically split into two halves the first half is like a kind of a cop movie and the second

half is an exploration of like jewish spirituality so it spoke to you on two levels. Wow. As a cop and a half Jew. Yeah. I was wrapped. I'm not going to nominate Homicide but I'd like to cite it for the historical record. Why are you nominating it?

We can because we'll cut things at the end. We're going to have to cut a lot. There's like seven Coen Brothers movies on this list. This is a problem for me.

Okay. All right. I'm not going to do I wasn't going to nominate Homicide. But you go you do your chronological thing. There's like seven Coen Brothers movies on this list. This is a problem for me. Okay. Alright. I'm not going to do... I wasn't going to nominate Homicide. You do your chronological thing. Do I jump in when I'm like, I'd like to nominate this movie? We're going to kind of go through the major highlights of his career. Okay. And then

we'll debate. Sid and Nancy so far. Sid and Nancy is in. Nine spots remaining. We're making a short list. Nine spots remaining. 1991, Barton Fink. Yeah. In. That has to list. Nine spots remaining. 1991, Barton Fink. Yeah. Yeah. In.

That has to be. Indisputable. That's certainly one of our favorite movies and his work on it is amazing. I just was watching a kind of highlight reel of his work and the shot of Barton on the beach with the woman sitting in front of him on the towel and the waves come crashing in.

Burned into my mind. Thunderheart, story Michael Abheart? Yes. Yes. Yes. Okay. This movie is awesome. This movie is kind of forgotten. Yeah. It's Val Kilmer

and it's Is it Wes Studi? Is he the star? I think Graham Greene's in it. Graham Greene. Right. And Michael Apted who directed the 7-Up,

14-Up, you know, the famous British documentary series along with a number of features but this features some incredible Badlands photography, a lot of which taking place in very weird magic hour,

dusk or dawn light. And it's just a really good crime thriller from the early 90s and excellent work by Deakins. Okay, Thunderheart is on the long list. Passion Fish from John Sayles. Not my favorite John Sayles movie. It's a good John Sayles movie. Chris was asking me yesterday

if I've ever interviewed John Sayles. John Sayles hasn't my favorite John Sayles movie. It's a good John Sayles movie. Chris was asking me yesterday if I've ever interviewed John Sayles. John Sayles hasn't made a movie in seven years. Okay. So the answer to that is no. Okay.

Seven years ago, I was writing about Cameron. I'm not going to put it on the long list. That's fine. The Secret Garden. Did you see this? Love this movie.

Yeah. I'm not going to put it on the long list, but it was important to young Amanda. Okay. Now we go on an extraordinary run. I have a question.

Okay. How do we not put every Coen Brothers movie on? Well, we're going to have to make some tough choices. Okay. It's going to be a war. But you can put them all on the long list. Okay. So 1994 brings us the Hudsucker Proxy on the list.

Yeah. 1994 also brings us the Shawshank Redemption. Has to be on the list. Yeah. 1994 also brings us The Shawshank Redemption. Has to be on the list. Yes. 1995, after working with Tim Robbins on The Hudsucker Proxy,

Tim calls him and says, I'd like you to shoot a little movie I'm making called Dead Man Walking. I think it's got to be on the list. Have not revisited this movie in a long time.

It's kind of amazing that this movie is going to be 25 years old this year. Dead Man Walking? Yeah. You remember how much we talked about, not we,

but how much Dead Man Walking was talked about? The how much we talked about, not we, but how much Dead Man Walking was talked about? The editors of Entertainment Weekly taught us to talk about this movie all the time. 1996, Fargo.

Yes. On Deadlock. 1996 also, Courage Under Fire. I'm going to go with a different Edward Zwick movie. Okay.

Do you like Courage Under Fire? I do, but it's more the performances. That's early. Isn't that early Damon? Yeah, it is. Denzel and Meg Ryan.

Tricky one. There are a couple of combat sequences that are pretty interesting. It's a helicopter fight, right? He's done a couple of desert war movies. He has. Okay, well, we'll leave Courage Under Fire off for now. Kundun, 1997. Marty, I liked it.

Maybe the best Sopranos moment of all time. I'm putting it on. Yeah. The Big Lebowski has to be on. Probably the most playful movie that Deacon's ever worked on. Zwicks the Siege. I'm going to go Siege.

This is Chris Corr. Explain the Siege. The Siege is about a terrorist attack that takes place in New York City and a series of terrorist attacks that cause the government to institute martial law in New York City. And Bruce Willis plays a general who takes over New York. And Denzel Washington plays an FBI agent investigating the attacks. And he works with Annette Bening, who plays a CIA agent,

to find the bomber. And it is incredibly problematic now. But as a urban war movie, the likes of which you can rarely mount, it is quite something to see. This was also a very difficult shoot, as I recall. Was it?

Yes. We'll add the siege. The Hurricane, Norman Jewison's tale of Reuben Carter, as I recall. Was it? Yes. We'll add the siege. The Hurricane, Norman Jewison's tale of Reuben Carter. It's fine. Okay. I love the Norman Jewison's tale of Reuben Carter. I was so professionally delivered. Thank you very much.

I am a professional podcaster here on the Ringer Podcast Network. Okay. Anywhere but here. Do you remember this movie? No. Mona Simpson. This is a very interesting story. Yes. The novel by Mona Simpson.

Wayne Wang directing a movie starring... Mona's a big vintage paperbacks author. You know, like, you know, there's that publishing house, Vintage. Raymond Chandler. Sorry, Raymond Carver, etc. Keep going. Jay McInerney.

Very distinctive graphic design. And Mona Simpson. Deborah Eisenberg, I think, was part of that crew. Who are the stars of Anywhere But Here, Chris? Natalie Portman. And Mona Simpson. Deborah Eisenberg, I think, was part of that crew. Who are the stars of Anywhere But Here, Chris? Natalie Portman. That's right. And Diane Lane.

Susan Sarandon. Susan Sarandon, yeah. I remember this movie now. An unusual turn to domestic drama for Deakins. Not mad at it. I don't think it's making

the long list. Oh Brother, Where Art Thou? 2000. Gotta go on. Yeah. How do we... This is gonna be tough. The Man Who Wasn't There 2001.

Probably... Dead... A lock. One of the least discussed... Stone-cold lock of the century. One of the least discussed Coen Brothers movies ever made, but also arguably the most beautifully shot.

So Chris says deadlock. Dinner with friends? You guys remember that domestic drama? I don't. No. Okay, we'll move on. A beautiful mind. Pass. Now are we judging the film or the photography in the film? Are we judging all of the writing on the wall? Because every single gif of things swirling around

and making sense of stuff and writing on windows? So you associate that more with Beautiful Mind than Hangover? I started with a Beautiful Mind. And Beautiful Mind invented that because it was before the Hangover. Yeah. I only recently learned that that gif was from the Hangover also. I think I learned that on our predictions podcast.

But it's, you know, every day we're learning and growing. Sean, this is among your favorite Ron Howard films. That's not even true. It's not even among my, this is among your favorite Ron Howard films. That's not even true. It's not even among my favorite. What's your favorite Ron Howard movie? Splash is up there. Backdraft. We're in Apollo 13.

Apollo 13. Oh, Apollo 13 is pretty great. And Da Vinci Code. And Da Vinci Code. It's in the loop. Right. So Angels and Demons number one. Yeah, of course I do.

Dan Brown? Come on, son. Yes. There's been way too much talk of books on this podcast. Dan Brown is the Mona Simpson of international cryptography. Moving right along. He's a symbologist.

The next movie is Levity. Has anyone here seen Levity? No. Levity is written and directed by Ed Solomon who is notably the writer of the Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure films.

He's also the writer of the Men in Black movies. Okay. And also, I think recently wrote Mosaic, the Steven Soderbergh HBO series. One of the most well-known script doctors in Hollywood. This movie's not good. Okay. We're on 2003 right now. Are you going to do this for all of them?

Yes. Okay. Just explain what the movie is. it is i human imdb uh intolerable cruelty perhaps the only well one of two coen brothers movies will pass on partially because of the quality i have a soft spot for intolerable cruelty i like intolerable cruelty more than i like the other movie you're about to mention okay so the house of sand and fog which I think is a pass. Once Upon a Time also kind of an Oscar contender. Remember the House of Sand and Fog? The Lady Killers from 2004. Pass. It's a pass for me.

Not a movie I like. The Village. Yeah! Buddy! M. Night! M. Night. Philadelphia's own. Speak on it. Well I think that he has a lot to do with the success of this movie which is incredibly stupid. But like 1917,

the first time through, you were like, M. Night Shyamalan, like, assassinate me and put me in the ground underneath the Meadowlands. Yeah, sure. I agree.

I think that the first time you watch it, you're completely captivated. It's mostly because of how it's designed. Yeah, exactly. And the use of color in this movie. And like, yeah. Shooting in the dark, all the shadows. It's all, it's all Deacon stuff.

It's in a goofy story, but it works really well. Did you see The Village? I was just Googling it to try to remember which M. Night Shyamalan it was. What's the one with the crop circles? That's Signs. That's Joaquin and Mel Gibson. Yeah, I was confusing those.

I think they're both good. Yeah. That's a. That's Joaquin and Mel Gibson. Yeah, I was confusing this. I think they're both good. Yeah. That's a controversial take for me. His first collaboration with Sam Mendes in 2005, Jarhead.

Like the trailer. I also like Peter Sarsgaard in this movie. Very good performance by him. I think there are other films that

Roger Deakins has shot that I would put ahead of it. Wow. More than 10 others. I'm putting it on my long list. Okay. I think that this is

a key signifier. It's a key contributor to all of his signifiers. It is like the big vista, the abandoned desert, the close-up with

sort of noisiness happening in the background. It's a good, it's a good, it's a film that photographs actors very well. All those Jamie Foxx sequences where he's kind of

breaking people down when they're all lined up as the drill sergeant are really effective and kind of funny but kind of menacing at the same time. I'm kind of a fan of Jarhead.

I don't think that's a very popular opinion these days. Okay, trouble time. The Assassination of Jesse James by the Coward Robert Ford. Complete and total masterpiece. Has to be on this.

Probably. Is it the most praised? Yes. Photography? Which I just said, like, with my eyes rolling. But I'm not rolling my eyes at Roger Deakins.

I'm rolling my eyes at everything else. At bros. Jesse James bros. Sorry, bros. I mean, this is just one where it's like, everyone is,

Roger Deakins made the movie. Is there, are there assassination of Jesse James reply guys? Yep. I'm sure there are. Certainly there assassination of Jesse James reply guys? Yep. I'm sure there are. Certainly there are. Next, No Country for Old Men.

Yes. Total no-brainer. In the Valley of Ella. You guys remember this Paul Haggis gem? It was okay. Tommy Lee Jones. Tommy Lee Jones is in the film. Is Jason Patrick in this movie?

I believe Charlize Theron is in it. Oh. It's sort of a murder mystery set inside the military. Not a great movie. Notable though that Roger Deakins had three films released in 2007.

Part of that is because the assassination of Jesse James took about two years to complete. But still, Jesse James, No Country,

and In the Valley of Ella all in 2007. Can I just jump in real quick? A little bit of research corner. It's interesting that he works so much with the Coens and the Coens do so much storyboarding. And he talks a lot about how when you go to a Coen Brothers set, it's pretty much like you're executing what you've already pre-planned and that there's not a lot of variance from need the sun to move six inches to the left, you know, and I need this tree to move over here.

And that all of it was improvisatory. And a lot of it was how can we, you know, capture this accident or correct this mistake? So he's able to work in a lot of different ways. It's very true. And in fact, the weather was a significant factor in 1917. Yes. I just really enjoy, Roger Deakins is the unofficial ambassador for Dark Skies, the weather app, which I also actually do use and recommend.

But both in, he talks about lot of questions to aspiring cinematographers. He's just like really randomly and enthusiastically recommends dark skies as the best way to achieve natural light or filming outside, which I just find really charming. I love it when like relatively famous people just keep blogging. Yeah. Deakins, Nick Cave has a great blog. Just stay blogging, guys. What happened to you? Why'd you stop blogging? Because I plot all the time. I don't have any time to blog. It's a great blog. Just stay blogging, guys. What happened to you? Why'd you stop blogging? Because I pot all the time. I don't have any time to blog. It's probably-

Roger Deakins literally made 1917. Okay? And like- But he doesn't have to watch the Bucks. You know what I mean? Like all he does- He makes every damn year. You are the 1917 reply guy.

And then he shows up. He was answering them like an hour ago. He checks every day to be like, hey guys, thanks so much for commenting. Did Roger Deakins watch The Bucks this weekend? That's what I want to know. Probably. I doubt it.

Okay. What hasn't he watched is really the question to ask. Let's keep moving. Revolutionary Road. Another Sam Mendes movie that against my better judgment, I'm a big fan of. Gotta put that out there. Really?

So you don't like this movie? I haven't seen it since it came out. I guess I haven't either. And I remember, I mean, it's tough. That's it's just and obviously the source material is also like really tough. Yeah. Did you think Marriage Story was tough? Watch Revolutionary Road.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's true. Marriage Story is like sleepless in Seattle compared to Revolutionary Road. But I also like at some point I'm kind of impatient with the dourness of Revolutionary Road. Like, Road, I get it. It's hard. It's hard to be in the suburbs. Sure. Is that really your review of Revolutionary Road? I get it. It's hard to be in the suburbs.

Try Trench Warfare. Oh, no, I have to be my dad. Try trench warfare. That's all I'm saying. I mean, honestly though, yeah. Okay, so we're not putting a revolutionary right in there. Although famously,

that thing I keep talking about with the close-ups and the madness happening in the background, one of the all-time great examples of that is Kate Winslet still in the front of the frame with Michael Shannon out of focus in the front of the frame with Michael

Shannon out of focus in the back of the frame losing his mind that's like such a memorable Deakins moment to me does that so well the reader no this movie's not good the I think the reader had like nine Oscar nominations yes and Kate Winslet won for the reader not ideal not ideal doubt good movie good movie yeah not sure the photography is what I think of when I think of it. No. I guess some of that like sort of severe.

This is the John Patrick Chandler. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Some of the severe because. You were saying it's a good movie and I was like,

it's okay. It really is. Sometimes I just get fired up that I get to see a play that I didn't get to see. That's literally what it is. It's just people like really theatrically

yelling at each other in rooms. I get it. It's hard to be a priest. Try Trench Warfare. It is true. Next film. A Serious Man. Yes.

2009. Obviously one of my favorite movies of all time. It's going on the list. Company Men. 2010. That's the Ben Affleck movie. It certainly is.

Kevin Costner. Tommy Lee Jones. It's all about how it's tough and hard to be a man. Try Trench Warfare. Pass on this. Okay. True Grit. Really? It's a good one. with uh it's all about how it's tough hard to be a man try trans warfare pass on this okay true grit

uh really it's a good one it's gorgeous but I'm gonna I'm gonna save a couple of my in my mind I'm keeping track why don't you put it on the long list

and then you can say no I have a troll take is Roger Deakins a fraud and the Coens are the greatest artists of all time but if yeah that was the case his other movies would be shit

yeah just keep going to continuing on let's get to it. In Time, 2011. Is this the Justin Timberlake and Amanda Seyfried one where they're... It was very confusing,

this movie. Modern science fiction film about everyone having a certain amount of time on their wrist. Did Andrew Nichol direct this? He did direct this. That guy.

This was the same year as Adjustment Bureau? Sounds right. Yeah, that was a weird time for movies. No, it's not Adjustment Bureau. Sounds right. Yeah, that was a weird time for movies. No, it's not on my list. Skyfall. Yes.

This is what I'll walk out if it's not on the final list. I'll walk out and do what? On the final one, I will walk out. What are you going to do? What does that mean? We'll finish the pod. I have another partner right here. I'll walk out.

You're going to walk out we're gonna walk out like George Mackay walking through the trenches yeah Prisoners 2013 gosh this movie

is definitely going on the list dude Prisoners is actually low-key super underrated now and this is my I think

okay my favorite Deakins reply guy has been I'm just Paul Dano in a trailer being like,

this movie is actually the Villeneuve that I would advocate for being on the list. Over Sicario and Blade Runner. One of the most insane takes. For Deakins' work. That's terrible. For Deakins' work. This movie is depraved and incoherent. You know that I love depraved movies.

Okay. This movie is fucked up. Because of our respect for. You know that I love depraved movies. Okay. This movie is fucked up. Because of our respect for you, we'll put it on the long list. Number one Gyllenhaal performance of all time. Detective Loki. Have you seen

Spider-Man Far From Home? Honestly, Detective Loki is his name and we're not doing a Marvel thing. Did you see Mr. Music in the John Mulaney special? No.

That's his greatest work of all time. I would encourage anyone who hasn't seen that to see it immediately. Unbroken 2014. Do you remember when Angelina Jolie

directed an adaptation of Unbroken? I do. And it's Jack O'Connell. Is that written by the Coens? Or one of them? I think so, yes. I saw this movie.

It's okay. It's a bit punishing. I like when Roger Deakins was doing interviews about this movie and he would just be like, Angie and I were watching this. It's a bit punishing. I like when Roger Deakins was doing interviews about this movie and he would just be like, Angie and I were watching this. That's really cool.

Sicario 2015. I mean, I'll put it on, but let's just know that my order of preference is Prisoners number one. I need you to know that Prisoners over Sicario and Blade Runner 2049

is shameful. I agree with him. Okay. I zagged. Hail Caesar 2016. I like this movie. I like this movie. I love this movie. People should read Naaman on this movie in, I think, reverse shot.

He wrote a really amazing, like, sort of reading of the symbolism in this movie. So, interesting tidbit here. This movie was really, really influential on Deakins going full digital because he had such a hard time dealing with the labs on the film when they shot the movie because there are so few options for film development now and for treatment of film footage.

And because I think they really lost a lot of stuff in the shoot because of their inability to convert. And so now I think you'll only see him shoot in digital, which is kind of fascinating. Blade Runner 2049. Yes. Put it on the long list. More a collection of incredible images than a good movie

but the images are so incredible that I really would love to see this on the big screen. I'd also love to know about what happened to this movie. It was interesting reading interviews with Deacon 3. He's like, well, we wanted to shoot it in London and a lot of the architecture was supposed to be this brutalist architecture in London

and they obviously had to shoot it in Budapest I think and in some interviews he's like it's really great because Denis is going to get to really tell his story and not have to worry too much about the first movie and that obviously wasn't the case so I'd be curious to know what

ultimately happened to this movie, which I still am fond of, but it's very long and very, very weird. Deakins didn't make one movie this year. He made two. That's true. And the other movie he made is called The Goldfinch. Yeah, it is. I think I might have said it when you and I podcasted about this movie earlier this year, but I did think it was beautifully shot.

It was. I think it looks great. And unfortunately, the adaptation doesn't really hold up to what's on the screen. Yeah. The Vegas scenes were very beautiful. Same thing. Desert Vistas. Totally. And even I thought the New York, the kind of on the, they weren't on the New York Street all the time, I would imagine, but kind of setting it in the city of New York was, you wanted to be a part of that world. Absolutely. I wouldn't put it on my long list, but his work in that film was good. And then, of course, 1917, which, you know, is almost certainly going to be his second Academy Award win after his win for Blade Runner 2049. We didn't even really talk about how Deakins for years had been the Susan Lucci of the Oscars.

Yeah. had been the Susan Lucci of the Oscars. You know, he really was the most nominated person who hadn't won in his field forever. Interesting to see him win two in three years. Would you put 1917 on the long list? Sure. Okay. I do want to cite one more thing for you two who do not like animated films. Ringo!

This is very important to me. And it's important to explaining the artistry in animated movies. Roger Deakins is the leading consultant amongst digital animators in the world. You know what this means, right?

What does it mean? He gets a free lunch and he's like, great drawing. If that's all he was going to do, they would just hit him up on his blog.

When he comes to Pixar, gotta get that free Pixar commissary. He's worked on W blog. When he comes to Pixar, Gotta get that free, that Pixar commissary. He's worked on WALL-E, How to Train Your Dragon, Rango, The Guardians,

and The Croods, and the How to Train Your Dragon sequels, including this year's sequel. The Croods! You guys are going to give me a wedgie about the prisoners. Prisoners. I am not a part of this. But How to Train Your Dragon 2 is canon.

Do not group me with Sean on this, okay? I'm not going to be shouted down on my own podcast about animated films. Roger Deakins agrees with me that How to Train Your Dragon is important. Yeah, he agrees with the zeros in his bank account. You'll have to watch the films to find out. I'll never know. That Lasseter money. He's just like, drop the bag.

Let's go. Before we cut our list down, I'm going to just cite a couple of Deacon's facts. So we mentioned a bunch of his collaborators. The most is the Coen brothers

with 12 movies they've made together. Sam Mendes, they've now made four. Denis Villeneuve, they've made three. Are the Coens making a movie right now? I know Joel has Macbeth.

I don't know if something has started after Macbeth. The standalone single Coen Macbeth the standalone single Coen Macbeth with Francis McDormand and Denzel Washington comes out later this year Deacon's big influences it won't surprise you to hear Jean-Pierre Melville

Andre Tarkovsky, Akira Kurosawa, Kenji Mizuguchi and Lupino Visconti you know Army of Shadows, Stalker Seven Samurai, these movies are suffused in all of his movies those big vistas, those triumphant shots of people shot from below to look more powerful than they are. The shadow, the light, all that stuff is in all of those films.

His favorite movies of all time that he's listed. Pretty good list. Wild Bunch, Come and See, La Dolce Vita, Dr. Strangelove, Le Samurai, Army of Shadows, Once Upon a Time in the West, Rocco and His Brothers, a Visconti movie I just watched two weeks ago, The Passenger, and Paris, Texas. Those are all incredible movies. I can recommend every single one of those movies. I've been on a real Jean-Pierre Melville run over these last two years, really,

but they're all on Criterion. You should really watch them. I want to read this quote that he gave us, which is notable, especially in the context of talking about something like Blade Runner 2049. The biggest challenge of any cinematographer is making the imagery fit together of a piece, that the whole film has a unity to it, and actually that a shot doesn't stand out. In a way, it's a false compliment when somebody says, oh, I love the shot where such and such. Actually, you shouldn't love that shot.

You should love what's happening. You should be in the story. Somehow that's taken you out of it. Very relevant to the conversation we're having about 1917 too and kind of what Deakins brings to the table here. Let's see how many films we have on our long list, shall we? 23. This is going to be hard.

Are you guys going to X me out on Prisoners? Pick a Villeneuve. We'll start with a Villeneuve. Are we going to be cute or are we going to be honest? Just outvote me. It's okay. This is a democracy. I vote Sicario. I vote Blade Runner. Well, then what are we going to do here? I'm going to go with Sicario then. Yes. Well, then Sicario gets it. So we're nixing Blade Runner and Prisoners. Yes. This gets us to 21. Okay. Skyfall has to be on. Has to be on. Skyfall has to be on. Lose true grit. Okay.

Lose true grit. Serious Man is a tough one. Tough one for me. I'll fight for it. Okay. Let's leave Serious Man. I think, let's do what we absolutely have to have. No country in assassination you have to have.

Yes, just absolutely. Jarhead out. Jarhead out. Village out. Village out. I think you should do Man Who Wasn't There. I think O Brother we can lose. Sorry for going fast. We're already

sitting on six. So if we lose O Brother, that's seven with the Man Who Wasn't There. That's pretty... We got a lot of cutting to do here. Cut Siege. The Siege? Okay. Well, that's so sad for you, though. I'm willing to do what it takes.

Okay. I can't say that I remember. I may have seen Kundun, but I can't really remember a single thing about it. Is that because you believe that Tibet should not be free? Sean, Jesus Christ. Okay. I love it.

I love it. Are you fucking putting Rango on here or what? No, no. Those movies don't qualify. Okay. Those movies don't qualify. Though, in many ways, Rango is the Kundun of my heart. You just became a total chaos agent in the last two minutes.

What happened? What spirit took over your body? I'm just getting all these ads from the 1917 hive. All right. Okay, let's cut Dead Man Walking. We know that's not going to make the cut. This is a real issue here. I think you can cut Hud All right. Okay, let's cut Dead Man Walking. We know that's not going to make the cut. This is a real issue here. I think you can cut Hudsucker.

Okay, we'll cut the Hudsucker proxy. Chris, unfortunately, we're going to have to cut Thunderheart. That's fine. Yeah. I think you have to keep Barton Fink. The life of the mind. This is just a lot of Coen brothers, bro. Well?

Well, he's worked with them a lot. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13 on the list right now. 13. I don't think Sid and Nancy can go anywhere. We have to represent the early stage of his career. So we have painful decisions to make. Kundun out. Yeah.

Kundun out. Sorry to Christopher Moltisanti, who loved Kundun. I got to say, I think the Big Lebowski is incredibly well shot. But if we lose it, I'm not gonna walk out. I agree with that. I mean, it has other things. Yeah. To me, that's a script movie.

To me. Yeah, but think of those Busby Berkeley sequences. Think of the camera following the bowling ball, running into the lane. That's fucking beautiful. Okay, then let's cut Serious Man. Think of the Jesus. Let's cut Serious Man.

Sidling up to the gutter and dropping that ball in the middle of the frame. What are you going to cut? I don't know. I'm just trying to admire art. Why does it always have to be a war? Fargo has to stay. The rules of this thing. Fargo and Shawshank have to stay.

I agree with that. I actually, Shawshank has to stay. I was willing to offer up Fargo. Even though I don't like it, but in the spirit of compromise. I don't. The car coming up in the snow. The lights over the hill on the road. Iconic stuff.

This podcast becoming you just like describing love shots cinematography just give me beautiful shots you gotta cut serious man you gotta do it what?

you gotta do it you gotta do it you can't just be like here's what we have to keep here's what we have to keep you can't and you can't yell at me about prisoners

best final shot in the Coen brothers career congratulations to Joel and Ethan Coen on all of their work this is about Roger Deakins you can't tell me that we're getting into

the... These are non-negotiable. It's non-negotiable to have No Country and Assassination of Jesse James. It's one of my favorite years of movie making ever. I'll cut Lebowski.

Okay. You still have to cut two more. 1917-1, Sicario 2, Skyfall 3, Serious Man 4 because you're being weird. No Country for Old Men, five.

Assassination of Jesse James, six. Man Who Wasn't There, seven. Fargo, eight. Shawshank, nine. Barton Fink, ten. Sid and Nancy, eleven. You have to cut one. I'd probably go Fargo.

I have already said that I think you guys... There is a lot of sameness in the tent. We're doing a lot of Western vistas. We are doing a lot of like rich outdoorsy neo-Western stuff here. Whereas Fargo is just like the whitewashed Great Plains. I said not Great Plains, right? Minnesota.

Land of Lakes. Chris, Fargo is in North Dakota. That's right. Sean is just glaring at Chris this is like angry Sean body language I'm just gonna narrate this breakdown

in real time nostrils flaring where's Rango said also in the American West that was also in the life of the mind and that's a frog who's a sheriff right

he's not a frog he's not a frog he's a gecko is he sheriff is that like a top top 10 frog sheriff movies is where's rango this is a shameful podcast i think we need to stop and delete this. It's so funny when you get so mad. Suggest one cut. We did. We suggested Fargo.

What's wrong with you? You won't let us get rid of Sirius Man. You want to keep the man who wasn't there, but not Fargo? Yeah, because I like this. You don't want to have a black and white entry here? What does that mean? Okay, why did we get to the shortlist in the first place let me ask you this should we you said this is their most beautiful

movie should we of the coen brothers i did say that we've not made like 18 movies by them should we cut 1917 fuck yeah punch it in right here sure that's you but what will you respond to all the reply guys yeah personally i will forward them all to you at SeanFennessy. It's E-Y, just so you spell it right. with the Rango meme. I don't think we can take Blade Runner 2049

and 1917 off the list. I was going to say, if we're doing objective Apex Mountain-ish type thing, then you have to keep 1917. Wait, Blade Runner's back on? No. I'm saying we've already cut that.

If you want to do Blade Runner instead of 1917, I'll go with you on that journey. Let me add one twist to this conversation. It's just a factoid. Roger Deakins is 70. Uh-huh. 70 years old.

No, older. He was born in 42. No, he was born in 49. Oh, I thought he was born in 42. He's not 80. This podcast is devolving. Oh, I'm thinking of Rango. He was born in 42.

I just can't. But frogs kind of like peak in their 80s, you know? That's when they do the most long- Let me ask you an important question. Have you enjoyed your final appearance on the big picture? Am I doing bad today? Am I doing poorly? You've assaulted me and you're next. I'm just laughing

because you're mad and also the frog bit's funny i i might i might nick sicario okay is that you're just getting mad he's just getting mad at me i advocated for like two things on this list and they are skyfall and sicario otherwise i'm just going along with you nerds and all your camera shit. And you're doing jokes about frogs. And you're just like talking about cameras. Yeah. Okay. For like an hour.

And I've had to go to the bathroom this whole time. And I'm just sitting here wanting this to end. But I want to keep Sicario. Jesus. This is your cross to bear then. I guess you're going to have to wait to go to the bathroom until we finish this. Why are you? I know why you're being so stubborn. This is a nightmare. Why did we finish this. Why are you? I know why you're being so stubborn.

This is a nightmare. Why did we do this? This was much easier when it was two people because then he had to. I'm egging him on. Yeah. Well, he had to join

in a spirit of compromise. He also gets really excited to shut me down. Well, me too. He just wants to be right. And when there's when there's three people that are like, yeah.

There are different allegiances. You have to pick one, Sean. You have to cut either Fargo or the man who wasn't there. I'll cut Fargo. Okay. You don't feel good about it. I feel horrible about it. Horrible.

Horrible. Well. Horrible. What an amazing career this man has had. I hope you guys have enjoyed your amazing careers, which are now over in the public consciousness and on the big picture because of these shameful acts for which you will never be forgiven.

Congratulations to both of you. Justice for prisoners. Thank you for listening to the big picture. Chris, thanks for being here. For the last time. For the last time. Amanda and I will be back later this week. We'll be talking about

the most anticipated movies of 2020. If she's still alive. See you then. you