The Big Picture - 2025 Oscar Nominations: Snubs, Surprises, and WTFs

Episode Date: January 23, 2025

Sean and Amanda give their instant reactions to the Oscar nominations announced this morning, including their takes on what films are running hot and which ones seem to have cooled off over the past few months (1:00). Is ‘Emilia Pérez’ the full-on front-runner? Will recent stories about the use of AI in ‘The Brutalist’ sour its chances in the big categories? Plus: They check in on the state of the Big Oscar Bet from September, when they attempted to predict the nominations and winners in 11 categories (1:07:00). Then, Sean is joined by the director of ‘Flow,’ Gints Zilbalodis, to discuss his nontraditional path to the director’s chair, the unexpected mass appeal of the film, how he found his particular animation style, and more (1:16:00). Hosts: Sean Fennessey and Amanda Dobbins Guest: Gints Zilbalodis Senior Producer: Bobby Wagner Video Producer: Jack Sanders Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

If you're a fan of the inner workings of Hollywood, then check out my podcast, The Town, on the Ringer Podcast Network. My name is Matt Bellini. I'm founding partner at Puck and the writer of the What I'm Hearing newsletter. With my show, The Town, I bring you the inside conversation about money and power in Hollywood. Every week we've got three short episodes featuring real Hollywood insiders to tell you what people in town are actually talking about. We'll cover everything from why your favorite show was canceled overnight,

which streamer is on the brink of collapse, and which executive is on the hot seat. Disney, Netflix, who's up, down, and who will never eat lunch in this town again. Follow the town on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. ["The Big Picture Economy"] I'm Sean Fennessy. I'm Sean Fantasy. I'm Amanda Dobbins. And this is the Big Picture, a conversation show about the 2025 Academy Award nominations.

We will talk about the Brutalist. That was the AI version. Oh, God. We will talk about that. Later in this episode, I'll be joined by Gince Zilbaldas, the Latvian animation director who was twice nominated this morning for his movie Flow in the Best Animated Feature and Best International Feature category.

I talked with Mallory Rubin about this movie at the end of last year, one of her favorite films. It's about a cat, of course. It's a beautiful triatease on surviving. We are also surviving here on The Big Picture. I hope you'll stick around for my conversation with Gince after we talk about the nominations. But let's talk about those nominations. Amanda, headlines from this morning.

Mm-hmm. Amelia Perez has 13 Academy Award nominations. I wouldn't say we're surprised. No. But when you put it in context with all of the films that have gotten 13 nominations, the second most in the History of the Academy Awards, it's interesting. Would you like to read the rest of the 13 nominations? Sure.

I'll cite the films that it now sits alongside in history. That includes The Curious Case of Benjamin Button, The Lord of the Rings, The Fellowship of the Ring, Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf? The Shape of Water, Mary Poppins, Chicago, Forced Gump, Shakespeare in Love, Oppenheimer, From Here to Eternity, and Gone with the Wind. Some great films in there. Yeah, not all great. Also Chicago.

Yeah, mostly great, or at least mostly historic. And so this is at least a historic thing. This is the most nominations for an international feature at the Academy Awards, something that I think is very indicative of where this award show has been going for the last five or so years. In addition, 10 nominations for The Brutalist, 10 nominations for Wicked, six nominations for Enora, eight nominations for A Complete Unknown. Broadly, your takeaway from what these nominations mean at 7.41 in the morning.

Been up since 5.30. I am same. Yeah, here we are. Mostly what we expected. And I guess I think they're okay nominations just because they validated my predictions. You know, like that's the mindset that we're in right now. I mean, that's true, honestly. Crusades Amanda has returned. Well, you feel the same way. Don't put me on an island with that.

But there were surprises. It's not that they were without surprises, but for the most part, this went where we thought it was gonna go. So, Emilia Perez, still incredibly strong. The Brutalist, quite strong. A Complete Unknown, strong. Stronger than I would have guessed two months ago, that's for sure. Absolutely.

And a Nora, like, hanging in, but I don't think that's gonna happen, you know? But we- We should talk about it. We've been there for a little while. That's true. Now that we know the 10, we can get into the science of rank choice voting, which like gets very intense. Exactly. But it does seem like it's Emilia Perez versus the Brutalist.

I think so. That does seem to be the race. Now the case for Enora with six nominations, and we can talk about those nominations, but they're the six key ones. They're picture, director, actress, supporting actor, screenplay, editing. Yeah.

That's where you want to be if you want to be in the Best Picture race. It's where I want to be. It's where I'd want to be as well. Obviously we really like Enora. I have felt like Enora in the Best Picture race. It's where I want to be. It's where I'd want to be as well. Obviously, we really like Enora. I had felt like Enora was the Best Picture winner since I saw it in August. 13 nominations for a million prizes is hard to look away from. That's a very large number. It is.

A lot of these films, though not all, did go on to win Best Picture that got that number. You know, movies like The Shape of Water and Oppenheimer in recent history have done it, and so that's very notable to me. That being said, it's a divisive movie. It's a divisive movie. It also occupies the Netflix spot. And Netflix has had a lot of 10 and 11 nomination,

best picture nominees in the past few years that still have not made it there. Yes, famously The Irishman went over 10. Maestro did not do as well as it would have liked Maestro did not do as well as it would have liked. Roma did not do as well as it would have liked. A lot of these movies that get a lot of nominations often fall short. I'm interested. I would say that the public internet reaction

to this, Emilia Perez, windfall has been very negative, but we know that filmmakers, actors, musicians love this movie. They have been celebrating this movie for months. Yes. Ever since it premiered at Cannes. Greta Gerwig's jury at Cannes gave it prizes. So... Don't point at me like that.

Listen, I wasn't... I'm just noting that that's where this all started. They also gave Anora the palms. So it's like, okay. Um, yeah. I think it's mostly chalk in terms of our expectations with a handful of surprises. Um, I think it's probably important to note

that continuing shifts towards both international filmmaking and a sort of more audacious filmmaking style. There were a couple of very exciting surprises. For example, you predicted Nickel Boys in Best Picture. I wasn't sure that that was actually going to happen. And it happened. It happened, which is tremendously exciting. One of my favorite movies of the year.

I know you've just had a chance to see it, so we'll get a chance to talk about it in a week or so on the podcast. 13 nominations for Amelia Perez, but also five for The Substance from a French filmmaker. It's a, you know, technically an American film in English, but also a deeply French movie. And then I think the real stunner of the morning, in my opinion, is I'm Still Here in Best Picture, the Brazilian film.

And also, Fernanda Torres getting in at best actress. Yes. So, Fernanda Torres won at the Globes. Sure. Did that Globes win? Push I'm Still Here forward in a way that it otherwise would not have. Because in the past, we sort of said, eh, the Globes, don't take them too seriously. They're televised, but maybe they don't have a big impact on the race.

In the past, we've said that, but we've also said as the race and the Oscar season and culture at large gets, you know, kind of more spread out and more unpredictable, any sort of bellwether, any sort of ceremony trophy given out, does have the power to push something in front of people. I do also just want to say the Brazilian contingent, very powerful. Very powerful indeed. Um, and international, you know? So, I do, they're dedicated,

and their hard work paid off this morning. Two foreign-born directors in the Best Director race, which is becoming a trend pretty consistently here. That is one of the more high-minded branches of the Academy. They, um... Medium. Well, they didn't nominate Edward Berger, which I guess is one of the sort of significant snubs.

To me, shows a real weakness for Conclave. I'd been holding on to my, maybe, Conclave at the last minute take. Yeah, I don't think that's going to happen. But now we can just be happy that we had conclave. We had conclave. It was a good movie. That we had fun watching. Good memes. You know?

And still we can make Pope jokes, but you know. Yes. The other thing is that all the Best Director nominees this year are first time nominees, which I think also indicates shifting tides at the Academy. Plus a lot of bold-faced names that you might expect to see at the Academy Awards historically are not here. For example, Angelina Jolie not nominated, Nicole Kidman not nominated, Daniel Craig not always an Oscar contender, but certainly a very famous person not nominated.

These award shows are different now. They are much more, for lack of a better phrase, critically minded. How that washes with Amelia Perez, I don't totally know. I, I don't know. I really, it's, it remains the big mystery. I know I've been saying like, I would like to have someone who is actually enthusiastic about Amelia Perez come on the show. I would say that like, you know, I've had the occasional, I'm trying to be as kind as possible, random person on the internet volunteer,

but even the very kind, respectful, random people on the internet are just like, I like it. And that's cool, but I would actually like a filmmaking, like, defense of here is why this works and here is why this is in my estimation Good. Mm-hmm That person yet, I don't know where that person is yeah, I feel like the movie is actually waiting for its big moment and I'm wondering if

sag ensemble is going to be it because If that so the sag ensemble nominees are anora a complete unknown Conclave Amelia Presse, and Wicked. All five of those movies are nominated for best picture. We've seen moments like the Parasite moment when that cast got recognized and there was a sense of joy and exultation. They were being celebrated at the Golden Globes together,

but this would be a slightly different spin that I think would push forward the like, is Amelia Perez actually happening story. On the flip side, the Brutalist. The Brutalist, unlike Amelia Perez, has no songs. So it has a score, obviously, which was recognized Daniel Bloomberg's amazing score that I've even got you singing now on the show.

Sure. Can we talk about score now? If you'd like, it's awfully early in the episode. No, but it's not, because I do think I have already heard from multiple people this morning about the Challenger snub. And you mentioned Daniel Craig not being nominated for queer. The broader theme is that the Academy turned its back

on anything related to Luca Guadagnino. Tough morning for Luca. Which, to me, is just silly. And I do also think the number of people I've already heard about, heard from, about challengers and challengers not being nominated in the original score despite winning the Golden Globe, that seems like a mistake. Yeah, it certainly undercuts what we're talking about here. The nominees for original score this year, not the worst batch I've ever seen,

but not necessarily an inspired batch. The brutalutalist Conclave, Emilia Perez, Wicked, and the Wild Robot. Anyway, clears the way for Daniel Bloomberg and The Brutalist, which is... That's a great score. I've seen the film, guess what, I've seen The Brutalist. Good movie. We should definitely talk about that a little bit now, and I think we'll talk about it more in depth. I do want to talk about the AI thing,

because people have been asking me about the AI thing ever since that story broke, including a fine young man at Legoland where I was over the weekend. Sure, so you told me this. Can you give me the demo on this gentleman? Got to be mid-30s. I would say kind of a core big pick listener.

Mid-30s dad who loves the cinema, who was waiting in line for a ride at Legoland as I was. What kind of rides are there at Legoland? Um... Emotionally intoxicating. No, they're rides for little kids. They're rides for kids between the ages of three and nine. So like spinning teacups and stuff, but not.

But made of Legos. Yeah, sure. Yeah, essentially. Anyway, that man wanted to know what I thought of the controversy as it was breaking in real time. Hadn't really gotten all the information at that point as I was traversing Carlsbad for 48 hours. Nevertheless, you know, the Brutalist score, as you said,

in a good position to win. I think the Brutalist is in a good position to win in a bunch of categories here. It's probably the biggest threat to Emilia Perez. I can't help but feel like... where Conclave and even Enora once was in my mind, A Complete Unknown is slowly, slowly, slowly creeping up. Yeah. We got, of course, Timothée Chalamet.

We got best adapted screenplay for Jay Cox and James Mangold. We got James Mangold in Best Director, which also happened to DGA. Very rarely do DGA and the Oscars match. And I believe they did match this year. And... Monica Bobara. And Monica Barbaro, which is... Which is great. That's just dessert. I believe they did match this year. And... Monica Barbaro.

And Monica Barbaro, which is... Which is great. That's just deserved. One of our favorite nominations this morning. You know, that just like that works out. Yes. You're right. It's creeping. I mean, it's a really, really crowd pleasing movie. I put it on for my almost three-year-old,

and he was wrapped. And it is, well made performances. It's comforting, you know? It is, it's familiar to a large group of people, but still good. And so I think like the walk hardness of it all that the internet really loves is not really a problem for most people.

Agreed. I think you do need a throwback nomination. Like just kind of like a movie that feels like an Oscar. 100%. It is the most standard of the films that are here. It does make a few creative choices in terms of like where it charts Dylan and how it portrays Dylan that is different from,

say, Walk the Line, which I appreciate about the movie itself. And I think actually voters are literally responding to the specific choices that were made in the movie that differentiate it from past music biopics, but... I think they're just kind of responding to everyone looking beautiful and playing Dylan's songs,

and you just kind of like fix it on the screen. I mean, I watched it, you know? Knox was just like, who's that? That's Bob Dylan. And then just didn't look away. He did also start asking for like a Rolling Stone like two minutes into the movie and I was like, well, you've isolated the central tension here. Yeah. I mean, there is something primal about that movie,

you're right, and I think it is scratching that feeling of what old Hollywood does, for lack of a better phrase. But eight nominations is more than I would have guessed even two weeks ago. I didn't have Mangold in for my nominations. Yeah. So that reveals something kind of fascinating. And in any year where there is really no favorite, despite Amelia Presse having all these nominations and to your point

about ranked choice voting, you never know. We really never know. That's a movie that, as you say, makes people happy. And so if it gets a lot of number two and number three votes, that could help. Yeah. I guess, so let's so let's go through it. They're gonna be the people who have Amelia Perez

at number one. What is their number two? Anora? It could be the substance. Maybe the substance, yeah. Cause it just in terms of like going for it international. We should say that the substance got five Academy Award nominations.

Yeah. Which is fucking crazy. Somewhere, Frank Henenlotter and Steve Yuzna and David Cronenberg are wondering how this monument to body horror that was built on their shoulders is being celebrated in this way. It is amazing. Because it's pop. It is, but it is so gross.

Yeah, but it's like, it's really gross, but you can also just forget about the last 40 minutes of it, you know? Yeah. And I think in the way it's been cannibalized in pop culture, like lots of references to it, but not to the last 40 minutes, even though they are ultimately the point of the movie. Yeah. Elisa Sue, monstro. God bless her. May she rest in peace. So, I get it.

So, Enora, the Brutalist, the Complete Unknown Conclave, Dune Part II, Emilia Perez, I'm Still Here, Nickel Boys, The Substance, and Wicked. These are the best picture nominees. By far the most surprising one is I'm Still Here. The second most I would say is Nickel Boys, though many people did have it in, and we had it in at various times over the last few months.

Conclave and Dune Part II now seem to be relegated to a like, congratulations on a nice year for your movie. Maybe you'll win one or two below the line. Right. We liked seeing it. Yes. Well, Dune Part II, I don't even know if they like it. Dune Part II seems real grudging across the board. Yeah. How many nominations did Doom Part II get? I think it got production design. I want to say it got sound.

Sound, visual effects, cinematography, and production design, along with Best Picture. So five nominations for it, which is less than it got last time. Though some key below the line nominations. And that cinematography category is just like cool, just full of grand artists. And so Greg Fraser, who I believe won for Dune Part 1 some years ago, maybe he didn't.

I have to double check that. But it is not really competing for Best Picture. And Denis Villeneuve did not get Best Director, which we knew was going to happen, but not ideal. Not that he didn't get nominated? Yeah, not ideal. Because you think, because you want like a more popular, you know, representation in Best Director,

just because you think Denis... He's a great filmmaker. Sure. Working at the highest levels of his capacity in the Dune films. Yeah. Okay. Like, yeah.

Jacques Odillard is there? I mean, sure. But, you know, what are we going to do? I think Denis is still working. I think he still has time. Still not my favorite Denis movie, so that's okay with me. That one wasn't nominated either, so, you know.

It's not getting any better. Right, that's true. What's up with all the letterbox love for Encendis? Encendis? Yeah, Encendis. You know, I don't know how much French… It was widely acclaimed when it was released. No, it's a good movie, but it shows up as top five letterbox all the time. It's like really, really, really big on letterbox.

Letterbox, like the Academy, is very international. And a lot, if you look at the highest rated, the top 250 that they have, you know, it's often, there's lots of Japanese films, Edward Yang films are always near the top. So I think it's probably a reflection of that. Yeah. I mean, that's cool. Good movie. Yeah. Very upsetting movie. Maybe like, maybe number five on my Villanueve list, but... Yeah, it's right around there. It was his sort of major...

But it's like number one on a lot of films. Yeah, it was his pre-Hollywood breakthrough. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, and maybe it's like there's some cool points to really liking it as well. Yes, I think, sure. Given this performative letterboxed thing that we all know is happening.

Um, anything you want to say about Wicked? I mean, Wicked, ten nominations, you pointed out mostly in craft categories, though of course it's two lead performances, you pointed out, mostly in craft categories, though of course, it's two lead performances, Cynthia Erivo in Best Actress, and Ariana Grande made it into Supporting Actress. Right, Best Picture, obviously. It did not get adapted screenplay,

which we had both predicted. Instead, that spot went to... Well, you had put Sing Sing as the fourth, and I had put Nickel Boys as the fourth or fifth. Anyway. And they both got in. They both got in, which is wonderful, frankly. Um, it's eligible in score, and they're in score

instead of challengers, which is one of the great outrages. That sucks. That's a crummy nomination. I mean, that's just like, you know, production design, costume design, all of sound, all of those things, it's represented. It feels like people really admire it it and that they went for it, but it's probably not going to win much. Is my guess now?

Yeah, I wonder. I mean, I think it has a chance in costumes. Sure. All the popular dresses were very good. You know, I think if the film were shot and lit differently, it actually would have had a really good case in production design because it was all practical sets that were built. It's not CGI, but because of that odd decision

to backlight and the way that the color is graded, doesn't, those sets don't look very good. Oh, I'm so mad. So that's an interesting one. Shout out to Mitch at the Academy Museum, who's a big picture listener and was standing. He was at this, the color exhibit, this is what made me think of it, where Dorothy's shoes are.

He was watching over Dorothy's shoes. And that is a great exhibit about how color is appropriately used in films. Not, like, unlike some other movies. Thank you to Mitch. Thanks for all your work. Shout out to Mitch. Shout out to people who understand what color should look like. Um, you mentioned Sing Sing. Sing Sing not in Best Picture. I did have it in Best Picture. My predictions,

I thought it was going to get across the line. It did get in at screenplay, and when that happened, I thought, okay, we're good. This is going to happen. And then Clarence Macklin, you know, that was one of the first nominations announced this morning. He did not make the cut for Best Supporting Actor. We'll talk about that category momentarily. So, it feels kind of weak.

Also, A Real Pain didn't make Best Picture. Now, you've been one of the few A Real Pain semi-detractors out there. Not a semi-detractor. I think this is appropriate. Sure. I think it did get a Screenplay nomination. Mm-hmm. And Kieran Culkin was nominated.

So I think right now we're at the appropriate level of recognition. Mm-hmm. Come Oscar night, we might tip back over into a little too much. But this is good. It's a good movie, an interesting screenplay. Yeah, well, I'm interested to hear what you have to say about Guy Pearson, the Brutalist, and also when you see, if you have not yet seen The Apprentice, because now I feel like you have to watch it.

I watched The Apprentice on January 19th. Oh, okay. At the night, you know, just to get ready for the day. Very cool, yeah. And then I went to The Brutalist on January 20th. Wow, big hillbilly elegy on the election day vibes there. I did think of you. Um, okay, so not what Sing Sing wanted.

I genuinely just think that they bungled the Sing Sing thing and it should have just come out in October or November and this would have been a little bit of a different story. Um, I think they could have just hid that movie after Toronto for a long period of time and then given it a traditional fall release. The fact that Nickel Boys did get nominated in Best Picture indicates that, you know, it's the same thing like people couldn't watch it on VOD, it wasn't streaming anywhere, you had to go to screenings, but yet anybody who did watch it found a way to make an emotional connection to it,

at least people that I have spoken to. Yeah, absolutely. So it's a bit of an, it's an odd miss, but you can see exactly why it happened. Yes. The other piece of it is that that is an A24 film, Yes. The other piece of it is that that is an A24 film, and I do wonder how much of A24's awards resources got shifted to The Brutalist with success. And whatever you think of that marketing campaign,

and I'm excited to talk about it with you, it worked. Oh, so successful. Yeah, it was so successful, so smart by them. And obviously they got a tremendous amount of nominations, and now it's a front runner. So I think that's a shame. I think you're right. I think that actually is the most significant thing

that happened, which is that, but they had already had the August release at that time and it was like, did they know at that time that they were... Even before Venice, like I get it. It was weak and they needed an acquisition or I don't know. But it's an interesting turn of events because that's a movie that, especially with this Academy, I would have thought would have done a little bit better.

And it's, Coleman Domingo did get nominated, rightfully so. Macklin was the performance I preferred of those two. Me too. So that's too bad. Supporting actor is very, very competitive this year, and there's a lot of really good performances, so it's a tough one.

No, it's not competitive. I mean, the spots were competitive. It's a four-gone conclusion to Kieran Culkin, which I don't understand. They're full of very admired performances, though. You know, like, Yura Borisov is the big breakthrough, and then you've got a bunch of actors who people are like, that guy's the best actor.

Like, Guy Pearce, Jeremy Strong, and Edward Norton. You know, this is Edward Norton's fourth nomination. He's not won before. Guy Pearce is having this, like, why was he not, you know, Cary Grant? Renaissance going on right now? Great questions. And of course, Jeremy Strong, who's got multiple Emmys

and who is widely admired by his colleagues. He's very good. No, he's good. Good performances by him and by Sebastian Stan. Really annoying movie, but whatever. That's interesting. I can't wait to talk to you about it. I don't need it. I mean, you and Brian said it best. It's like, yeah, like I but whatever. Um, that's interesting. I can't wait to talk to you about it. I mean, I don't need it. I mean, you and Brian said it best. It's like, yeah, like, I get it on a number of levels.

And also, I don't really care. Well, then let's talk about best actor in Sebastian Stan. OK. Because he was nominated, not for A Different Man. I think the movie that we both prefer of his two performances, this does feel a little bit like a combo acknowledgment. Of course.

You know, like we all settled on The Apprentice here, but this is for a year in which he had two very challenging and interesting performances. And that left Daniel Craig on the outside in this race. I'm okay with that. You know, queer to me, I'm very mixed on. I really don't know what's gonna happen in this category. And I guess it is somewhat related to the brutalist AI discussion that we can have. But it really does feel like a death race

between Brody and Chalamet. Although Chalamet is not winning a lot. Like Brody was on a bit of an unbroken streak. But just like a complete unknown, it's climbing, you know? And like, SNL's coming this weekend. He's working hard. He's working hard. He's really good. And as the enthusiasm for that movie and that kind of old-fashioned

performance grows, I think he's got a real chance. I think he does too. Here's my question. Do people outside of America care about Bob Dylan? He's an international artist, but mean, I understand that he wanted Nobel Prize. But not the way that Queen is. Yeah. You know, where Queen kind of translates to every language.

I don't think he's quite at that level. He's certainly much more of an American institution. Right. Um, I don't think that really matters though. Because I think actor transforms and learns to do something he didn't know how to do before is a tried and true Oscar playbook. That's true, but I think as the Academy has grown, I mean, like, Rami Malek did win for that,

but as you said, Queen, international. I guess Renee Zellweger also won for Judy Garland, but Somewhere Over the Rainbow is like, you know, the movie song of a lifetime for everyone. So... Yeah, that's a movie about Hollywood royalty. Yeah. Queen is a, you know, that was like going to a rock concert.

They've seen that movie, whether you liked it or not. Bob Dylan is slightly more esoteric, but he is iconic-clastic and iconographic. You know, like there is something about seeing that silhouette in the movie that I think is very powerful, and I think voters are drawn to it. And plus, Chalamet's just, he's got a tremendous amount of young movie star charisma.

And Brody's already won before. But it does feel a little bit also like the Leo thing, where it took Leo so long to win, and for not his best movie or performance. What would you equate this performance for Chalamet? This is also, by the way, Chalamet's second nomination, because he was also nominated for Lucasfilm. Call me by your name.

Call me by your name, thank you. But was not nominated for Dune, which would be his Titanic. So then he's nominated here for... Was Leo nominated for Catch Me If You Can? I mean, very different. The Aviator, was he nominated for the Aviator? Let's take a look at his nominations. Worth scouring.

But again, the Aviator in terms of... What's Eating Gilbert Grape was his first. Yeah, sure, that's the Call Me By Your Name. And then the Aviator was second. Okay, so this is The Aviator, yeah. Yeah, Blood Diamond was third, which is your favorite. Sure, yeah. An incredible episode of The Rewatchables.

If you are looking for a way to just escape the world. Many people are saying... Um, The Wolf of Wall Street, The Revenant, and Once Upon a Time in Hollywood. Of course, it took him Once Upon a Time in Hollywood. Uh, I would argue that him getting Passover for Wolf of Wall Street and Django The Revenant and Once Upon a Time in Hollywood. Of course, it took him Once Upon a Time in Hollywood. I would argue that him getting Passover for Wolf of Wall Street and Django is, like, bizarre.

Um, and then ultimately they gave his name for Revenant. But, you know, you could have made the case that the Aviator is a movie that isn't our favorite Lawrence Corsese movie, but it's a very accomplished movie. He's really good in that film. He's a little young to be doing some of the things he does in that movie, but you could make the same case for Chalamet.

Right. But so, that indicates to me that I don't really know if it's gonna happen. But, I mean, we'll talk more about the Brutalist and about Brody. And about that Golden Globe speech also, which, you know, he did have the opportunity. And I don't think he totally nailed the speech. Well, I think there are other issues that they're going to have to contend with in that respect. Let's carve out 15 minutes to discuss that

at the end of this conversation. Supporting actress. This was also one of the most competitive categories because there were so many contenders. I was convinced that Jamie Lee Curtis was getting in. So was I. And she did not get in. No.

Daniel Deadweiler also did not get in. Yeah. Margaret Qualley also did not get in. The nominees for supporting actress are... Monica Barbaro, which does give credence to your alphabet theory because she took the question mark spot with that B. On the other hand, Isabella Rossellini getting recognized does not. No, but I predicted it. You did.

Listen, I didn't realize this was her first nomination, which when you think about it, makes sense, but she's Isabella Rossellini, so she's just like in the firmament. You assume that she's been there. Really, it was just her mom. She's cinema royalty and also, I don't think this was a factor at all because of when voting closed, but a lot of people are rewatching Blue Velvet right now since David Lynch passed away,

and obviously her performance in that movie is tremendous and very upsetting and very powerful and kind of like etched into movie history. So it's not shocking to see her there. I had her as an alt. Ariana Grande, we mentioned already, Felicity Jones for The Brutalist. Some people were predicting would miss. I know you're probably going to have some strong opinions

about that character. And Zoe Saldana, who's almost certainly going to win this category. Not a lot of, much like in Supporting Actor, not a lot of tension or heat in this race. We were just kind of waiting to see who made the four or five spots. Right, who gets to show up.

Yes. So, it's okay. Yeah. I don't know. I don't really have any other notes. Jamie Lee Curtis will probably still be there because she's an Oscar winner and a member of the Academy. So, she'll get to have a nice night out. Good point. Yes. That's right. Maybe she'll even present, you know, could be.

She loves to be in the mix. Yes, she's a cheerleader for the industry. Actress in a leading role. We mentioned Cynthia Erivo has already made it. This is her second nomination. Carla Sofia Gascon with her first nomination for Amelia Perez, Mikey Madison, also her first nomination, Demi Moore with her first nomination for The Substance, and Fernanda Torres for her first nomination.

Some, what is it, 27 years after her mom, I believe, was nominated for Central Station. So... Fernanda Torres, you seen that movie yet? No, I'm pissed off because... Now you gotta watch it. No, no, I was gonna watch it anyway, because it's nominated in International Feature,

and I think, I mean, I do think Emilio Perez will win there, so, but it's a contender. But I thought I had it locked up, where I would have seen everything that was nominated. Oh, interesting, this is the one you haven't gotten up to yet. Yeah, and so, you know, I picked The Apprentice for that reason. Yeah, smart. And... You Apprentice for that reason. Yeah, smart. You didn't know you did not believe in Fernanda.

Well, I went to see Hartroos instead. And I'm incredibly glad I did, because that is an absolutely amazing movie. I was absolutely, I was bowled over by it. I can't wait to talk to you about it. I think Marianne Jean-Baptiste should have been nominated, and that's one of the, you know, I haven't seen, I'm still here, so I can't speak to Fernanda Torres Torres and we try not to do the taking away, snub whatever, but that's just a loss.

That was an incredible... She would have been my pick to win. Yeah. Hard Truth was completely shut out. I had it, I think, in original screenplay as well. And the Academy, you know, over the years has really liked Mike Lee's movies. We haven't had opportunity to talk about him too much on the show because I think he's only released one film in the last seven years. Um, but yeah, Fernanda Torres is clearly in that spot

that at least I had been holding for Marriott and Jean Baptiste. And you've mentioned the Brazilian contingent is very strong. This movie is resonating with people. It did not really resonate with me. It is a very important story. And, um, it's obviously deeply important to the history of Brazil and tragic in so many ways. The actual movie itself, I didn't really connect with, but it is clearly connecting with lots and lots of people.

I will also say I saw Fernanda Torres at the Debbie Magazine Best Performances party. She looked very stunning and she... Very elegant, I'd like to age like that if I could. And also, you know, it was like there in the mix. So, I... She's campaigning. And that, you know, that's allowed. For the longest time, I thought this was a very easy Mikey Madison, Anjanu, best actress, coasting win,

and now it just feels like it's Demi Moore. Yeah. And that's just over. Well, that's nice. Is there gonna be like any surprises in the major categories? Actor? We're not totally sure.

I mean, it's a bit of a coin flip. I don't know if it'll be a surprise. We're getting a little bit in the acting categories because of the number of precursors that we now have and the level of visibility for those precursors. But this happens every year. More so in the last three though. The last three years, I think going back

to everything ever all at once, it was kind of pretty clear after SAG what was gonna happen. Yeah, but SAG was pretty late and it flipped. I think we thought on nominations morning that it was gonna be Cate Blanchett and then once Michelle Yeoh won at SAG, we were like, oh, it's Michelle Yeoh. And same for Jamie Lee Curtis.

But then, like, that was a kind of concretizing of a potential narrative. Sure, but, you know, we're not there yet. That's true. That's true. Um, okay. Any other critical surprises to you? I thought September 5 in original screenplay was a bit strange. It's a movie that I like.

I like it too. You know, very like well-made, modest venture. I interviewed Tim Felbaum, that'll run on the show next week, the writer and director who's nominated here. Very competently written screenplay, very unflashy. We've often cited this category as the cool category. This is where like the most interesting and transgressive movies usually go. Right. No challengers.

Yeah. Disappointing. No hard truths. No hard truths. No A Different Man, which was never going to happen, but, like, was a cool screenplay. Kind of a bummer. Yeah.

I don't really get it. It's a little bit like the, I call this, like, the Belfast category, which is like, fine movie till it wins best picture, which it didn't, you know? But I was just like, I kind of liked it. I'm like, very accomplished, but I'm not totally sure what's going on here. Yes.

There's a gentleman six and a lady seven, and September 5 is a lady seven. Good movie, I liked it. Four nominations for Nosferatu. As they were going through the nominations, you texted me and I was feeling exactly what you texted me. I was like, oh, I liked it. Four nominations for Nosferatu. As they were going through the nominations, you texted me and I was feeling exactly what you texted me. I was like, oh, this could happen. Which is like, oh man, is it really happening?

It got in at cinematography as I suspected it would. It got in at costume design. It got in at, was it production design as well? I believe so. What was the fourth nomination where it got in? I can't even recall. Cinematography. No, we said that already.

Okay. Production design, costume design, and... Makeup and hair styling. Oh, well, yeah. I mean, I haven't... I'm going tomorrow. Makes sense, yeah. When you see the film, you'll understand.

There's something very prominent related to Nosferatu that is very good in makeup and hair styling. Didn't make it. Didn't make the cut in Best Picture. Did you see that Robert Eggers will be making a new film called Werewolf? And that movie, that film is spelled like this, W-E-R-W-U-L-F.

And I believe there's an umlau over the U. Cool. It's coming on Christmas Day, 2026. Is it really? Yes. That's a nice tradition that you guys have going. It's really... That's beautiful nice tradition that you guys have going. It's really beautiful.

It did feel a bit like AI, tell me what Robert Eggers will do next. A little bit like, this is deeply unsurprising. I'm sure all watch it and like it, just because I enjoyed Nosferatu. My favorite nomination of the day is Soundtrack to Okureeta, which is a documentary that I've talked about a couple of times on the show that is incredibly exciting. I told you that all the docs are streaming but I don't think Soundtrack to Okudeta is streaming yet. Okay, so you lied to me before 7 a.m.? I apologize. Is that the first time that's happened?

We have nothing if we don't have trust, Sean. It was just a mistake. That's all that it really was. I was very happy to see that. I don't know, any other, anything else really blow your wig back about these nominations? No, they aren't holy cow levels of nominations because we have discussed everything. They're like pretty good for what I think was a strange year at the movies. And we've got some good stuff.

And I would say that Marianne Jean-Baptiste is the only... And Challengers being the real disappointment. And also in Challengers, like, kind of an opportunity to bring in a different audience, because that was also a real pop moment. That is the last thing which we touched on briefly with The Globes is, you know, not a lot of people have seen most of these movies.

Um, it's not the worst thing in the world, but at a time where the Academy is making a lot of decisions, like we just saw the decision to not air, thankfully, the original song performances. Yes. Um, which we should talk about very briefly. Uh, that's in an effort, I think, to just have a more streamlined show

and to get the show under a certain amount of running time, which I don't personally care about, but to also focus the attention on the movies, I think, as much as possible. We also saw in the announcement this morning that there's gonna be a lot of efforts towards acknowledging and supporting fire relief and fire relief funds and acknowledging people

who've been affected by everything that's been happening in Southern California. Janet Yang and Bill Kramer talked about that this morning before Rachel Sennett and Bowen Yang presented the nominations. So, maybe a more stately and quiet kind of Academy Awards? Yes, they're also, they are bringing back the Fab Five presentations where, you know, five previous winners,

winners, right, give kind of like an individual tribute to the nominees before they are announced, which was divisive, I would say. Not my favorite thing. I liked it, but I agree with you that it's like, the energy comes down. I want to thank everyone who got in touch about the original song decision and thought of us.

That was really nice. It was nice. I think it's why it's just because you can't live up to I'm Just Ken ever again. Like, maybe that should be the last performance of all time. It showed a tremendous amount of foresight and knowing that it would be impossible to live up to that. I don't think that this is a permanent decision.

I just think that this collection of five nominees is not a great one. I wonder if some of the Amelia Perez nominees were not comfortable performing. And if they were not, that might indicate that there was no reason to do it anyway, because those are the only really standout songs that are nominated here.

We've got an Elton John song and a Diane Warren song. And a lot of songs. Excuse me, Elton John. Don't say it like that. What do you mean? That song is fine. But it's Elton John. You know, you don't have to be like,

we've got an Elton John song. Like, people don't want another... We need another Elton John. He's not nominated for Mona Lisa's and Mad Hatter's. He's nominated for Never Too Late. Listen, I haven't heard that song, but that's okay. It's still, it's Elton John. Just like put a little bit of respect on it. I'd like to know your take on the documentary,

Never Too Late, which I watched. Okay. And wish I didn't. I wish I didn't. I'm trying to remember which podcast that you did while I was out, where you said that you were going to try to, your critic friends were encouraging you to watch fewer movies and enjoy the movies that you see. Yeah.

And I would just, I would just. I watched three films yesterday. Yeah. In theaters. OK. So that was, I'm not really living up to my promises. I watched one film yesterday with a member of your family. Oh, that's great.

That was great. Yeah. That was very very sweet. I wish I was there, honestly. It was very cute. That's sad. I guess all we imagine is light mist across the board, which when it was not submitted by India, it was obvious that it was not gonna get

into international feature, but there was a push to try to get it into the spot that was ultimately occupied by I'm Still Here. And so it shows you that that thinking, that strategy I think is very good. Generally speaking, um... International Feature is not exactly what I thought it was going to be. I guess we should mention it very briefly,

particularly because Flow got in there. And I suspected it would as it started gaining steam just only recently. I didn't really think, I would not have guessed that a few months ago, but it's I'm Still Here, the Girl with the Needle, Amelia Perez, The Seed of the Sacred Fig, and Flow. That's another category that feels fairly easy to predict. Animated feature, your favorite category. You've seen zero of these movies?

I have seen Inside Out 2. Oh, you did, that's right. We did a plot about that. That was the highest grossing movie of the year. I do know that. Flow, Inside Out 2, Memoir of a Snail, which has just got major Amanda energy. I did predict it. That was in my big Oscar bet.

Thanks to Griffin. Wallace and Gromit, Vengeance, Most Foul. I think I also predicted that thanks to Griffin. And David. I shouldn't leave David Sims out of this. Okay. Please don't. You're also cheating in the big Oscar bet by consulting them. And then the Wild Robot, of course. Wild Robot versus Flow.

Is it cheating if you're very open about it? I actually, real quick, hang on. You did not predict memoir of a snail. You did get Wallace and Gromit, but you did not choose memoir of a snail. Did I? No. I loved memoir. I loved the title memoir of a snail.

You did, Sean. What did I? It turns out I did. Fuck. I have no recollection. At the end of this episode, we will go through where we stand with our big Oscar bet, which we made in September. It is probably laughably in shambles,

but we will find out very briefly. Documentary feature film, really quickly. We'll talk about these films a little bit more as the season goes on, but Black Box Diaries, No Other Land, Porcelain Wars, Soundtrack to a Kudeta, and Sugarcane. I believe three of those films made their debut, maybe four of them made their debut all the way back

at the Sundance Film Festival, which starts this weekend. Yes. And is loaded once again with documentaries. I'll be attending virtually, you're actually going to Park City for a couple days. No, I'm going for one night only, 18 hours. Yeah, to see one film. What about two films?

No, I'm going to see Opus. And then I'm coming home. Okay, well, so you won't be watching any docs. I encourage people that like documentaries and want to follow this race closely to start at Sundance, because this has been happening more and more. And also this branch is very idiosyncratic and very serious. This is a very serious collection of five films.

One other thing that jumped out to me, this is like a fairly, forgive this word, but a fairly progressive collection of movies. And I think if you're looking for a rationale for why the Academy is leaning into all of these films, most of them, I don't want to say they're like a rejection of the current American moment, but they feel responsive to it. And if you're wondering why 13, familiar Perez, if you're wondering why a movie like Enora is getting recognized,

if you're wondering why a movie like A Complete Unknown, which harkens back to a time of social... wherewithal. Yes. Which has, it's in the air. Sometimes they are a change in, like like the emotional centerpiece of the film. Yes. I think it's fairly, it's maybe so obvious it's not even worth pointing out,

but this feels when, a lot of times you hear like the liberal Hollywood Academy, but like this feels like a meaningful representation of it in terms of the kinds of stories that it wants to say it showcases. And also a lot of stories that not a lot of people have seen. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, the documentary branch in particular that it wants to say it showcases. And also a lot of stories that not a lot of people have seen. Yeah, absolutely.

I mean, the documentary branch in particular is always very esoteric and very purposeful about rejecting kind of the mainstream. Celebrity. Often Netflix-sponsored documentaries. No Netflix documentaries here, which is unusual. They usually get one in. Daughters was one many people thought

would get in this year and did not get in. I think we both did that for the Oscar reds. So, but I would agree across the board. I mean, you could even lump the apprentice nominations within that of kind of the Academy trying to respond to the world at large through the films and the performances and the perspectives that it is honoring.

100% agreed. Any other thoughts? We'll have time to go through some of these other categories over the next five or six weeks. So we didn't finish going through our ranks choice. You want to do that? Mental exercise. Okay. Well, I just, yeah, so if you've got...

You're talking about where we think things stand? Because we're just going to do this again in like a week. Well, like we got up 5.30 in the morning. Like, what else are we doing? Let's talk. You know, can I tell you something? I accidentally set my alarm for five, not realizing it was 5.30. So I've actually been up since five. So I woke up at 5.25 because I have that old person thing now. It's like when you're like going to a... when you have a flight,

you wake up every hour. It just changes in your 40s. You don't know, and then it just changes. You're just... you just... you gotta pee 19 times a day. You just wake up at 447 a.m. for no reason, and you can't go back to bed. No one told me about this. Okay. Um... I mean, it's, it's so true.

You know, it's just every day, it's more and more true. I used to sleep till 1145 a.m. routinely. I mean, me too. Which is remarkable, what's happened in my life. I used to sleep till 11.45 a.m. routinely. I mean, me too. Just remarkable what's happened in my life. It was incredible. Best picture. Yeah. Number 10 is probably, I'm still here.

So, yes, yeah, yeah, yeah. So you're doing it for everyone. Oh, you want to just do- I want to game out the ballots for, you know what I mean? So if someone- Yeah. What do you mean? Yeah, Kornacki over here, let's go, let's go. That would be great.

I would love to have more Steve in my life, but I did not tune in on election night for obvious reasons. We gotta turn this into your big board. We gotta get you to be able to move contenders up and down. Okay, I mean, that would be fun. Zero in on the counties. That would actually, that would be great. What is Hancock Park saying about Amelia Perez tonight?

And writing a bunch of things. I mean, I think I would be great. What is Hancock Park saying about Emilia Perez tonight? And writing a bunch of things. Uh, I mean, I think I would be great at that, but I also meant like, let's bring back, bring actual Steve Kornacki. Oh, you want Kornacki to be a part of this? Yeah. Has he ever done Oscars content? I don't think so. He does some Super Bowl stuff.

He does. Because I know he's a, he's a football guy. He does, yeah. He's welcome anytime. Steve, come through. Okay. Holler at us. But no, so if you put Emilia Perez as your number one,

what's your number two as a voter? Not you, an Academy voter. Yeah, I think it's an aura. I think it's an aura. It could be wicked if you're like a musicals person and that's sort of the showmanship of the movie. Okay. And also the lack of self-seriousness at times.

I think there's something whimsical about both of those movies, so that's a sort of story that you like. Is there any world in which it is the brutalist, because you're just European? Yeah, sure. Absolutely. You know? And I don't know, like... This is a common criticism of the Academy, is that it is very Western Europe focused.

Yes, so that's kind of... And that is sort of a European perspective on America in some ways. Not totally. Yeah, I mean, Mona Fast-Vold is Scandinavian, and she's the co-writer of the movie. I think you're right that it's probably either a Nora or Wicked, and then The Brutalist is in, like, your top four for Amelia Perez?

Or is it... Yeah, I think so. Because I guess what I'm trying to get at is, like, are they polar? An artistic achievement, yeah. Right. However, you put Brutalist at number one. I don't think you're putting Amelia Perez at two or three.

I also think you're putting Anora. I, yeah, I do as well. This is why this is my case for Anora. OK. This is a lot of number two and three votes. Very few people hate Enora. Right. But could there just be enough, okay, so.

Love it, I can see the sparks coming out of your ears. Yeah, I mean, let's do the math. Okay, so number one, you're just gonna keep Amelia Perez at number one if you're voting again and again. Brutalist stays at number one if it's number one in your ballot. And Nora stays number two and number three. I just, I'm just trying to...

Who gets there first? Is it, I don't know if it's Nora. I think this is the opportunity to talk about the Brutalist story from last week, because that story, which does have... Identifies it as a firm runner because... It's an, I mean, it's an attack. It is very clearly a coordinated attack. I don't know who it is from. We can speculate.

I'm not gonna do that right now. It doesn't mean that what's in the story is not true, because it obviously is true. And we can talk about the ramifications of that as well. But that story didn't just pop up out of nowhere. No, of course not. And that's something that is a tried and true Oscar tactic over the last 50 years.

Harvey Weinstein was the most successful and demonic practitioner of the tactic, of the, uh, I don't know, the campaign smear, I guess would be the best way to describe it. So there's a story on a website called Red Shark News, which I know you have bookmarked at home, about the usage of artificial intelligence technology on the film The Brutalist.

There were two instances in which it was used. The story, I still don't totally understand how it was reported, but one of the people who was interviewed for the film was David Jansko, who is the editor. And in that story, he talked about the ways in which AI technology was used to kind of mold and shape and quote unquote correct

some of the pronunciation in Hungarian that Adrian Brody delivers, I believe off screen whilst reading a letter in a two minute segment of the movie. And then the second usage was that an architectural consultant used Mid Journey, which is a generative AI technology, to craft architecture designs like blueprints that appear at the end of the film.

The production designer, Judy Becker, then took those blueprints and then had an illustrator redraw them and, I guess, add to and redefine their designs. Right. This is arguably the most hotly contested, argued, debated issue in all of Hollywood right now, in all of the internet and all of the creative arts. And it's extremely complicated. One, great job on that campaign smear,

because this made a ton of headlines over a long holiday weekend. I mean, it's Chef's Kiss in terms of just old school Oscar elbowing. Yes. They got a lot of attention for this story, at least on the internet. And my takeaway is that this is not

going to have a big and meaningful effect on the awards race, except maybe in Best Actor. I don't think that this necessarily damages the film's chances as Best Picture, but... That's... Okay. I mean, sure, sure. And I understand that the Actors branch is a particularly concerned, and listen,

rightfully to a degree, group of people when it comes to AI and... Yes, likeness is very important to them. Yeah, of course. And there is language in the recent SAG deal that disallows this. Now, obviously this work was done in this movie with the agreement of the actors who participated. This isn't something that was just done.

Now, the speculation is that one of the reasons that it was done is that this is a low-budget movie that, and this is a cheaper way to accomplish work. That's obviously something that threatens a lot of people in the industry because it is frankly cheaper to use AI to accomplish stuff like this. In my opinion, the language, molding, shaping, to me is ultimately a non-issue. In the interview, David Jansko, who is Hungarian,

talks about the difficulties of nailing the Hungarian language if you are a non-native speaker. And that level of complexity to me is another, just another use of technology that can be helpful. This is also a technology that is used all the time. It was used in Emilia Peres this year. It was used in The Killer last year. If you read David Fincher or Steven Soderbergh, talk about what AI can do

and how they feel about it in this respect, it's becoming, if not industry standard, very common. And in this case is at least being used as support and enhancement as opposed to replacement. Obviously there's a precedent issue that is alarming anytime you talk about AI, but in this case, it is being used at least for like an assist. And also being done with consent from the actor, which I think is meaningful. That being said, it's much easier to skew this one in a talking point about how

that's not Adrian Brody giving the performance, that I think ironically, I guess, hurts him more than the second thing, which I think is more insidious and complicated. I do as well, though, I have to confess, I don't really know enough about the practice of architecture to know how these modeling programs are used and whether they were used for many years before in architecture, and now they're just called AI because it's the hip thing to do.

That's a great point, and it's kind of the key point, which is that we just use AI to describe everything. Yeah. If you watch movies that have effects technology from Weta, for example, which works on Avatar, works on the Lord of the Rings films, Peter Jackson's company, they've been using machine learning technologies

to evolve how VFX works in Hollywood for a long time? Is it exactly the same as chat GPT or mid journey? No. Is it using technicians to deploy a lot of those tools? Yes. Is it taking away from a specific living person right now? Not really, but it has obviated a lot of jobs that previously existed in Hollywood. This is like a story of technology and continuum.

It's not one about one guy saying, I'm gonna use ChatGBT to write my screenplay. So... Yeah, but, but, on the other hand, this, the production designer, Judy Becker, who is nominated for The Brutalist, and has a very challenging job in realizing buildings that are a central plot point and also metaphor in the film, and has to do that

on a budget where you can't actually, I mean, spoiler alert, they didn't make the damn building, you know, and it's not... Well, this was used very specifically for the sketches that we see at the end of the film during a kind of... During the epilogue. Sure, but the case for her Oscar and for her achievement and the work that she did is about conceptualizing

and presenting these buildings on film that are true to the script and represent something about the film's ideas and the character and what it's trying to communicate on like five different levels, architecturally, metaphorically, historically. So, if there are some computers involved in conceptualizing,

what turns out to be, for better or for worse, like a central part of the movie, like those are material to what's going on. I think you have to actually dig deeper into it. One, I wish they hadn't done this. I don't think it's a good thing. I don't want it in my movies. I think it is the slipperiest of slopes and extremely hard to navigate. That being said, this happens in a lot of films.

Many times it's happening and you don't know what's happening. If this was not revealed in an interview, we would not know. Right. Steven Soderbergh talked about this last week with The Daily Beast. It's interesting. I don't know that I fully agree with him, but he has been fairly hardline on this. And the examples that he uses is as a writer that he sees not a significant difference

between utilizing a tool like this, a generative tool that is gathering all of the available information in the world versus you watch movies and you call ideas from those movies and you use them and you process them and you put your own stamp on them. What he says is that AI cannot do what I can do because of my life experience.

It can regurgitate an agglomeration of what has come before, but it cannot humanize it. You could say that that is him merely protecting a kind of technocrat overlord approach. You could say that as a filmmaker, he is someone who has always favored the ceaseless push towards technology forward decision-making. And if you look at his movies in the last 10 years, they are made with

evolving technologies. In this particular case, the thing that we don't know and may never know is what happened between an architect consultant right asked mid-journey for some pictures and then those pictures appeared in the movie what did Judy Becker do what did her illustrators do how did they evolve or change those things sure I guess we also don't know the architect asked for pictures from mid-journey in this one instance. Do architects do that all of the time? You know?

And it is like, are we living in a world where someone's vision then does get sketched out for a number, you know, is it, is it an assist or is it creation? I don't know, I understand. Can you even use the word creation when it's, but you understand what I'm saying. Yeah, I didn't know. I understand. Can you even use the word creation when it's... But you understand what I'm saying. Yeah, I didn't know. Of course. I mean, film is such an iterative medium.

It is so... Every movie is connected to the movie that came before. And it is also one that is about the continuing flow of developing technologies from, you know, black and white to color, from silent to sound, from film to digital, from practical to CGI. Like, there are always old roles that are eliminated and new roles that are created, old technologies that are removed. This movie is a really bad movie for this to be the case for. Because it is a movie that, in the marketing, in the way that the filmmakers have talked about it,

it is very much meant to be a celebration of the individualist creation. The idea of a person with an idea amassing a team and executing on that thing. So anybody who says like this movie should be disqualified because of its intentions and its story that it's telling and the way that it got there in this specific case. I understand that.

It's a little bit dramatic. I think it's dramatic. I would also say in this debate, if you are an absolutist, if you draw a line in the sand around artificial intelligence technology and say, I won't watch this movie or I will not respect this movie.

Within 10 years, you will not be able to watch movies. And so I don't know if I'm not saying that's a good thing, but that is what is going to happen. And so how do we find a way to understand and accept where an industry is going and then where artists will have to follow the industry in this particular case. And if this is a watershed moment or not, I don't think so. I don't think it is. I mean, I think it's just, it's another outside the like meta-textual moment for this movie, which is fascinating in terms of there's the conversation about the movie and there is this very, very intense, ongoing and filmmaker fueled conversation going on outside of it.

And it's like, so I have a little bit, I mean, I don't know if I respect the campaign, but it's just, it is so in response to three months of what has been going on and it's brutal and just hits the target exactly. Totally. So, but it does seem specific, not to the film, but to the conversation about the film

and what it means to be a filmmaker and things that... I don't want to say they've invited it, but it... Of course they have. Yeah. But it does really feel a piece of the argument that people have been having for three months. And, you know, it's one of those things where it feels very, very relevant now. And I think that conversation and all of this stuff outside the movie are the reason that it has so many nominations and that it's a front runner. Like they've played their hand really, really well.

Like in 10 years or 20 years when talking about the movie, for a number of reasons, whether it's because AI isn't everything or because the movie exists outside of this campaign in this moment, it doesn't really matter. I tend to agree with that. Whether or not it like takes away from my enthusiasm for the movie is a lot of something a lot of people were asking me, which like, not really, but I really don't like that they used mid-jury and I wish that that hadn't

happened and it feels like one of those things where like, did Judy Becker even know that the consultant was going to do that? Right. And if she did, why did she decide to accept those drawings? And how much did she change them? And it's, it's such, they're such small, but perfect vessels for the debate. You know, like it's kind of overwhelming. The speech technology thing, I continue to like,

if Timothee Chalamet wins, a part of me will think that it's because some of this factored in. Because actors will say, like, you shouldn't do that to your performance. Oh, okay. That is the thing they're saying, like, he's not actually speaking Hungarian throughout the entire film. It's not entirely his performance. It has been kind of massaged with this technology. Yeah, but to me, if that happens, that's also evidence

that people just aren't, like, watching the movie. Because it's such a small, it's like... It's a tiny part of the film and he's, you know, say what you will about the movie. He's a fucking amazing in that movie. It's incredible. And it's like, I mean, it's like a three plus hour movie and that's... And he's in all of it. Yeah.

And that's like two seconds of something of a pronunciation. I don't really get it. I mean, I think you're probably right that in terms of how this affects the voting categories, like that's stickier, but that's kind of dumb. Anything else about that? I don't know. I think I said what I felt like I wanted to say.

This won't be the last time AI comes up on the pod, that's for sure. No. You did a good job. I think... Oh, can I add one thing? Yeah. Um, I saw a movie, the movie, The Night of the Fires, I saw Eno, which I was kind of hoping would be nominated here.

It's a documentary about Brian Eno, and it's a generative documentary. It uses an artificial intelligence, but the artificial intelligence that it uses is called only from the filmmaker's previous work. And so when you sit down to watch it, it's pulling from, I think hundreds of hours of interview and archival footage

from the life of Brian Eno. But every time you watch it, it's different. So tomorrow, if you search for the film online, you'll be able to stream it over a 24-hour period. It's playing on a loop. But every time this hour and 40-minute movie plays, a different version of it plays. It's a movie that is using these technologies,

but is using them in more contained and constrained ways to more deeply focus on the kind of story it wants to tell over time. Is that confusing? Am I making myself clear? Yeah, I mean, every time anyone has described this film to me, I'm like, I just, my eyes glaze over, but, you know. In other words, there may be one focus on a period of time where Brian Eno worked with David Bowie,

and then there might be one sequence where it works on his time working with you two. Sometimes those things may be swapped, or maybe neither of them will appear and something else will appear. But it is all a part of this larger story of like his, his life and the way that he sees creativity. It's basically a choose your own adventure for filmmaking, but you don't get to

choose the film chooses the algorithm that is used, that is deployed, the software that is deployed is choosing. This is an interesting example of this technology that is defined by the people who have made work in the past that are making this movie, not the entire history of documentary. I don't want to eliminate the possibility for stories like this by saying like throw out the baby with the bathwater and all AI stuff. Like it is a tool in terms of filmmaking and film editing. It can be interesting. It's not good when you just say to a robot, give me this, and then that's all you make,

because that is what will lead to humans being replaced, like, in full across filmmaking. And what we really care about movies ultimately is our human connection to them and the way that stories make us feel as people. So, it's just a very nuanced and complicated thing to sort through, and I've been trying to sort through it for months.

Yeah, the only other thing I would say about The Brutalist, for me, what's interesting about the second claim, the architectural designs or whatever, is less precedent, though I agree with you, it's really important and I don't wanna watch AI crap for the rest of my life, even though I, again, I feel like I do all of the time, whether it's in a Marvel movie or, you know,

whatever Princess Sophia bullshit I watched with your daughter. Um, which is just... Sophia's very powerful. Sophia the First you're referring to. Sophia the First, yes. Um, who... Not made with AI. Made by animators, but okay. Yeah, but it just like, it looks like such computer garbage.

This is the problem. Computer animation is not AI. It looks like AI because we see AI animation and it's still crude. You're just talking about a somewhat crudely animated TV series on Disney+. Yeah, but it just, like, I agree, but then that is what's being fed it, you know? It just... Yeah, that's true. The general, like, denigration of standards. Yeah.

Mm-hmm. Because we're relying more and more on computers or accepting what computers can make. That's true. As a form of art when it is not. For me, but anyway, that's all important. But for me, what's interesting or complicated about the Brutalist stuff is, you know,

how the AI drawings are used in the film and what that use says about how the film is executed and what it does. And, you know, both where they're used in the film is quite interesting and we'll talk about it. But also, it is a movie about building things and they are working with a small budget and can't build everything. So how do they choose to execute this? And what can they do? What can't they do?

What works? What doesn't work? Do you feel like the limitations of it? So, you know, no one will talk about that, but that to me... We will next week on The Pod. We will. Yeah. It's an important part of this. No one will talk about that, but that to me... We will next week on The Pod. We will. Yeah, it's an important part of this. But that's not... That's not the buzzy-ness of the claim.

The claim is just about, you know, now all computers are gonna do everything for us, which is also bad. It's bad. Bit of an overstatement on what actually happened, but this is Oscar campaigning in 2025. It's just as it was in 1995, as it turns out. That was a sniper hit, though. It's like, it's really good.

And because it's like, because it's about computers and it's not anything truly... It's ideological rather than ugly. Yeah, it's beautiful stuff. I mean, it just, you know, it makes you tingle a little. This is really, that's your pleasure center is. Good for them, you know? Like, bring a little drama. Um, okay. Any closing thoughts?

I like the Oscars. Okay, me too. I'm looking forward to them. Conan O'Brien will be the host. Great. Very exciting, great choice. I'm very happy about that. Hopefully he will bring some levity to what will at times be a serious ceremony. I also trust him to walk the tonal line

of what you need to do here in terms of not being too glib or too, you know, laudatory, but also trying to provide an escape and also trying to provide work for everybody, which is, I think, the main thing here. Agreed. Let's talk about our big Oscar bet very quickly. Bobby Wagner, we, when was it? It was before Amanda went on leave, September 10th, something like that? Early September. September 16th.

16th. So on the 16th of September, we predicted the nominees and winner in all, was it all categories? No. Twelve categories? One, two, three, four. Fourteen categories. Fourteen categories of the 23.

We did not predict best documentary short because we are cowards. That was the funniest part of... Yeah, you didn't do the shorts and a lot of the below-the-line technical categories you did not do. The presentation this morning was done by Bo and Yang and Rachel Sennett. And Rachel Sennett, and they, you know, they brought a,

maybe we didn't go to sleep last night energy to it, but they looked great. And then the only time Rachel Sennett like really broke was after reading the documentary short titles. And she just was like, this is very serious, very serious subject matter. And then- She did say yuck by Charlie XCX, which was funny.

Okay. Yeah. That was amusing. Rachel Sennett, I love you. Thank you. Yeah. Okay, Bob. So how'd we do? You did not very good, but I guess good for the time that you did it. Thank you.

Because we did a lot earlier this year. Yeah, no short lists. Many of these things were not out, no short lists, no, like you hadn't even seen the brutal list at this point, yet you were heavy on it. So like this was kind of really flying blind here. Okay. And actually I just double check.

Sorry. It's only 11 categories. So out of a possible 60 points. So five for each of the ones that only get five and then 10 for the best picture nominations. Out of a possible 60 points, it is a 30 to 30 tie. Wow. Wow. Between the two of you. But out of a possible 60 points, it is a 30 to 30 tie at the moment between the two of you. So you're both batting 500. Out of 60. Wow. So we got half right.

That's bad. Four full months before the nominations were announced. Almost four and a half months. I mean, I don't accept a score of 50% in any walk of life, you know? Even a bad average. I can't imagine what you were like in high school. I mean, it was a huff fall. It must've been a huff hang. You turned out so well.

I think I, it wasn't my fault. But you're like, I'm competitive, but you're like, I gotta be right. Which is a different thing. Excuse me, excuse me. Excuse you. Excuse you. I'm not the only person at this table.

No, it's true. I didn't care about grades in school though. And I think I sense your grades... Oh, I vividly remember the first test I failed. Uh, yeah, which was in, uh, which was calculus senior year. You know, you get to, like, limits and some other... I mean, my brain just doesn't work that way, you know? And I got to that point and I was like, okay, we will no longer be pursuing this.

But yeah, that sucked. I failed that test. So 30 out of 60. Didn't fail the AP exam though, don't worry. I didn't take AP math. I was not good at math. Best picture, what did we have? What were our best picture nominees? Well, so you had six out of ten correct and Amanda, you only had five out of ten correct. Intriguing. What were they? I did the room next door. That was tough. That's true. You both had Gladiator Two in that did not get nominated.

Sean, you had Saturday Night. Yeah, I remember that one. You both had Blitz, you both had Sing Sing. We were so young. And I think that, oh, Amanda, and the other one you had that didn't get it was Piano Lesson. Oh, yeah.

You know, I felt pretty good about that too, coming out of the festivals. That movie just got completely blanked today too. No, Daniel Deadweiler. Yeah. It's too bad. Now, notably, by our rules, you get an extra two points if you predict the winner as well. So the winner is worth three and getting a nomination right is only worth one. So out of a potential 11 correct, Sean, you still have eight winners in contention. Wow.

And Amanda, you have seven winners still in contention. So you could get 14 more points and Sean, you could still get 16 more points. So upside, Sean, you're like slightly ahead, but depending on what actually wins. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. How different are we in the... In the winners. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. How different are we in the... In the winners. Yeah, in the winners. There's a lot that you overlap on,

like best picture you overlap on, you're different in director. Same on actor, same on actress. Who do we have in director? Same on supporting actress. You had Sean Baker, and Sean had Brady Corbet. Okay. That's a tight race.

Yeah, and you'll probably... You know, same on the wild robot you both predicted for animated feature. So yeah, so there's a lot of overlap, but there's still some possibility, depending on, I think, it hinges on director, mostly. How many did we each get right in time? And supporting actor as well.

This is when you find out that I placed the AI story. Yeah. Just kidding, I didn't do that. I believe the author's name was Adrienne Pennington. And I was like, is that an AI name? That sounds made up. What were our nominees for documentary? Documentary.

I mean, these were, this was awful. This is a hard category to predict. Did we get any? Yeah, so, Sean, you got two out of five, and Amanda, you is a hard category to predict. Did we get any? Yeah, so, Sean, you got two out of five, and Amanda, you only got one out of five. I can't believe I got one. The one that you got was sugar cane.

Okay. Which, Sean, you also got. And then your second one was no other land. You both predicted daughters to win, so you're kind of out of contention on that one. Okay. Thanks so much. Tough one. Okay, well, that one. Okay. Thanks so much. Tough one. Okay, well, that's interesting. It's so tight.

Yeah. So we never... We gotta do that in, like, November. We can't do it in September. Maybe we should keep... You know, my friends at the Gold Derby podcast, they do one in March. They do one immediately after the Oscars. Oh, that's fine.

I don't want to steal their idea, but that's a great idea. It's just like the flying blind predictions. Which is amusing because we think we know what's going on, but like, I would not say that The Apprentice was really on my radar at this time last year. You saw it at Telluride, right? I did, but I wasn't like, this is an Oscar movie.

Yeah, well, a lot of things felt different in September. It's very true. Yeah, we could do it again in September. Okay, all right, cool. It's funny. Great. What are we gonna do for the winner this time? You never really collected on that debt.

That's right. If I win again, you have to pose in front of my physical media library and we post it to the big picture social media feed. I mean, that is punishment. So, okay. And you have to say, it's so beautiful in here. Oh, okay. Yeah.

What do you think? Um, sure. Do I get to, do I get to pick things to take home? Uh, well, it's more of a lending library than a store, but we can talk about it. Okay. You just got so uncomfortable. You're like, no, give them back to me. Give them back. Collections getting strong these days. I don't know if I can give anything up. I'm feeling good about it. Okay, you just got so uncomfortable. You're like, no, give them back to me. Give them back. Collection's getting strong these days.

I don't know if I can give anything up. I'm feeling good about it. Are you gonna film her like the Joker in the Dark Knight when he has the hostage videos? And you're just behind the camera like squealing at her? I'm the guy with the phone stitched into my chest, but it's a Blu-ray of Pat Garrett and Billy the Kid. I'm just gonna immediately start rearranging everything.

You know? I know, if that were possible. Is that what you wanna do if you win? Just spend two hours rearranging? Just like color coordinating, throwing out the ugly ones. Not this, not this. Whoa. Wow, that actually is giving me a panic attack. Okay, this was fun.

We will be back next week where we'll talk about this more, but we'll also talk about completely different movies, temporary movies. So let's go now to my conversation with Gintz Zilbalotis. Very happy to be here with Gintz Zilbelotis, director of Flow. Gintz, I was reading about your previous film Away and the fact that you made it all by yourself. Is that accurate, literally alone, just you? Yeah, the credits are very short.

It's basically my unofficial film school because I didn't actually go to a film school, so I thought I would do that film. My goal was to eventually work with a team, but I didn't want to do it the traditional way, which is that you start in the studio and kind of a lower job and then gradually grow and get the opportunity to direct. But I just wanted to start and I made that film from the age of 20 until 24 and yeah so I learned about writing and directing and animation and doing the music and sound. Of course it's not perfect but like that's the best way to learn is by making these things and of course I didn't become an expert in these fields, but I think I

learned the basics and this allowed me later to work with the team and I could understand what everyone was doing. I was wondering specifically about who you felt you needed for a team as you developed Flow and that what kind of talents you needed to surround yourself with, because obviously directing as we usually understand it, is about delegation and entrusting your department heads. It's a managerial role in many ways, but when you made your first film all by yourself, how do you figure out how to do those other parts of directing? Yeah, well, a way I would maybe describe that I was

a filmmaker of that film, but I wasn't really a director, there was no one to direct. And so the difference is that when I have an idea, I can just make it, I don't need to explain it to anyone. And that can be good, because then you kind of go into a more, I don't know, cinematic direction, like, but it can be difficult because like, when you have to explain things, then they get challenged and tested. And you have to actually articulate everything and then everything has a reason. So with flow, I think that's a big

difference that everything is more polished, because it's gone through many kind of tests by having me explain it to people hundreds of times. But I also tried to find a balance with Flow as to not to over explain certain things. It was important that there are like some things left for interpretation. But yeah, it's about finding that balance where things are explained, but also open. But yeah, going back to your question, there were certain things that I felt

easier, that were easier for me and certain things were harder. Like I really enjoyed designing the camera, the kind of, in this case, case it's a virtual camera but it's still the same principles you know just the lens the lens size the focal length the everything so I really enjoy kind of blocking these scenes and creating the the layout and telling the story through that because especially when there is no dialogue that is like the main way of expressing everything. It's not just like decorative, it's really like the bulk of the storytelling. I really enjoy doing the music, even though it was my first time doing the music. I've never studied it. I don't play instruments and I don't read chic music.

So I started by, I did it on an app on my phone at first, which is kind of like riding a bicycle with your safety wheels on, which doesn't allow you to make mistakes. So I learned the basics using that and then I graduated to a professional software, but still it's all electronic music. But I love that because it's so fast compared to animation, you get instant results and it's very impactful. You can create a piece of music and it has more impact on the final film than something that an animator would work on for months, which is a bit unfair. But it's the way music works

that it can kind of really dominate everything. And yeah, so I didn't feel like I was great at actually animating. So on Flow, I was very happy to really delegate that. And I didn't animate any of the characters and we had a great team. And also on Flow, I didn't work on the sound. We had people much smarter than me doing that. But with the music and the camera I did want to be involved. With the camera I did everything, but with music on Flow I ended up collaborating as well with another composer. So I would do the

initial sketches. It's important also for me to do it myself because I write these sketches really early while I'm writing the script. Usually music is the last thing you do, but for me it starts with the music and then everything is built around that. So I do these sketches and I edit the film using my own music instead of like music from other films. And this allows me to integrate the music into the film. It's not overlaid on top. It's really guiding everything. But once I've done that, we brought on another

composer, Richard Zagipa, who is a lot more experienced than me. And he would really add more layers and depths to everything and make sure it's all cohesive. And then he recorded it with real instruments and orchestra. And it was, I think the best of both worlds where I am very hands-on and involved, but it's also very collaborative. And once Richard came on board, I wasn't precious about kind of like preserving everything I've done. It was very kind of back and forth process. Given that there's no dialogue in the film and you are looking for collaborators, animators,

co-composer, can you describe what the script looks like and what it is that you're sharing with them? Are you pitching the idea to them or are you handing them a screenplay and saying here's what the story will be? Yeah, with Flow it was actually the first script that I've actually finished. On a way, I just wrote an outline and basically improvised it visually. I could do it because it was a micro-budget film and there wasn't as much oversight. Because Flow had a much bigger budget, still much smaller than most US animated films, but still bigger than my micro-budget films.

So we needed the script for funding purposes. And so yeah, I worked with a co-writer who also later became the main producer. And so yeah, the script is only 35 pages, which is about one page per two minutes. Usually it's one page per one minute. But in this case, there is no dialogue, so the text is more dense, there's less white space. But the whole story is pretty much there, because I think writing is really like figuring out the structure and the motivations of the characters and the whole kind of relationships they have. And the dialogue is just the last thing you add. And so this is pretty much the same as any script, but you don't just add the dialogue at the end.

It's quite similar to the final film, but it's not exactly the same because so when the script was finished, only the financiers would read it and the producers, but no one in the crew read the script. Instead, after finishing the script, I start making the animatic, which is like the rough edit of the film. Instead of creating storyboards, which is a typical way of making animated films where you draw everything, I would just do this in 3D. I create a 3D set and I can explore it with a virtual camera. It's like location scouting in live action where a director

comes on set and discovers ideas. So it's very improvisational and spontaneous and there are many happy accidents. And so I create these shots in 3D. And a reason for that is because I need to, I move the camera a lot and I have these very long shots, some of which go for almost five minutes. So you can draw that, you have to do it in 3d so I do design this whole film and edit it with the music and and it

This is what we show to everyone on the crew Because I think it conveys the emotion a lot better than the script does the script is really you get the all the beats the action But you don't really sense the more kind of intense emotion, which you can't really describe with words. It's more kind of... The reason for making this film is because I need to kind of express these feelings I have, but I can't really do it any other way besides making this film. This is my way of kind of expressing some more deeper things. It's very therapeutic as well. I don't know exactly what I'm expressing at first, but I find it and discover it on the way. So yeah, I think with the music and the lights and the motion, we can express these things that the

script couldn't. Can you tell me a little bit about where the idea came from then? Obviously you had something calling to you to express yourself. You also have a cat, I believe. I don't know if the cat was the pure inspiration for it, but where did it come from to make a story like this? Well, I had two cats growing up. Currently I don't have a cat. But yeah, when I was in high school, I had two cats and I made a film back then a short film about a cat who's afraid of water. So it's the same concept, but but it's quite different in terms of presentation.

But yeah, so I made a bunch of more short films, and then I made my first feature. I had this opportunity to work with a team for the first time. And I wanted to tell a story about this very experience of how I'm learning how to collaborate and how to trust others, which I'd never done. And I thought that Katz would be a great protagonist for such a story because they're very independent and that could be its start of its character arc. So I revisited that concept I started when I was 15. So I've been with this story for half of my life now. And I added a bunch of more characters. I also added a dog, which is inspired by two dogs I had. And these other animals. So in the short, it was really about the fear of water.

But in Flow, the future version, I'm more interested in the cat's fear of others. It's really all about the relationships they have, and everything is really built around that. And it was also important that these characters, all of them are kind of relatable, or at least we understand them. So none of these main characters, at least are good or bad. They're both good and bad, each of them, which was important that each of them have their own kind of journeys and character arcs. It's just quite complicated to do without dialogue in this confined space. So there are a lot of limitations in terms of storytelling. Actually, yeah, it's challenging, but also that can be good, because in animation you have endless opportunities.

You can do whatever you want, so it can be great to have some limitations, it gets you going at least. The environment is interesting to me too. It's hard to place where the story is taking place, when it's taking place, is it even taking place on Earth? There's certainly a post-apocalyptic kind of feel to what's transpiring. Why did you decide to make those choices and also not necessarily explicate all of those things at the same time?

Yeah, I think of this place as like an alternative universe. So we did study real places and took references to make it feel grounded, but we made our own kind of architectural styles. And my goal was for it to feel kind of timeless, that there are no modern day buildings, there are no cell phones. So it could be said at any time. And hopefully this will make it relevant in many years as well, it will stay fresh. But yeah, we looked at places in Southeast Asia, in Central America, also in Europe, and Tibet, and Nepal, and combined them and made something new.

But because there's no dialogue, the environment is really telling the story. It's not just decoration. So the great thing about designing everything ourselves, we can do what is necessary for the story. We're not constrained by existing places. And yeah, so it's all there to kind of express what the cat is feeling. And yeah, I wanted it to feel like an adventure, the whole story.

So I wanted it to feel like we've never seen these places just as the cat hasn't seen them. So that was important that everything is kind of seen from the cat's point of view. I've read that animating water sequences is incredibly complicated and that's an essential part of the story that you're telling. Can you just talk about your experience trying to accomplish that? Yeah, in any kind of film, whether it's animated or not, they tell you to avoid water because it's so hard to control.

And also, well, maybe in this case, it's not as big as a problem, but they also say you should avoid using animals. That's right. And children too, I think that's the third one. So you didn't have to worry about children in this one. Yeah, but yeah,'s the third one. So you didn't have to worry about children in this one. Yeah. But yeah, animals are also tricky.

But water is complicated because there's no one way of doing water. There's a river, there's a lake, there's a storm, there is a puddle and each of them require completely different types of tools and systems that need to be developed. And usually in like bigger VFX heavy films or animated films, there are dozens of people, like the whole department, who are doing all that.

We had just two people doing all the water effects, despite most of the film being set in water. And the complicated thing is that you need to understand the physics, the technical part of it, which I really don't understand myself. But these people also need to have a very good eye and ability to tell stories, because water in this film also helps us to understand what the cat is feeling. It's like a metaphor for its feeling. So when the cat is afraid, the water is very scary and aggressive. And then as the cat learns to trust others, the water calms down. But yeah, I wanted you to be inside this water. So the camera goes in and out of the water within a single shot.

And that was important that it feels kind of tangible. You can feel its wetness and you feel very immersed in this world. It's incredibly effective and fascinating because it feels somehow both realistic and otherworldly. So the way that you've pulled that off is amazing. I can't believe how successful this film has been. You know, it's done really well at the box office. You know, I wish you the best with the Academy Award nominations tomorrow.

Are you stunned by the way that the film's been received? Are you surprised? Like, how are you feeling about the way that this, you know, relatively micro-budgeted, animated film with a small crew has found its way into the world? Yeah, I'm still... Yeah, I am stunned, and it is crazy. It's quite unprecedented. So, well, we were hoping to have a festival release and we were hoping to get like some

distribution. But yeah, this is a challenging kind of pitch because it's hard to compare it to something and you're always asked to compare it to something. And because it works both for kids and adults, so it's, people see it as neither in this case, when you're pitching it. I think it actually does work for kids and adults. So that's, I think, part of the appeal that kind of helped it break out of that festival circuit kind of art house films and that there are families coming to it. But yeah, in terms of the whole visual style and everything, it's unlike most animated films.

I think that's also what helped it to be noticed because it feels like we shot it in this very kind of almost documentary way, but also with these long takes, which is quite unexpected. And yeah, I think we just started in Cannes Film Festival, which was also a huge deal for us because they almost never select animation in competition. And then everyone really took notice and we got distribution, because we only got distribution after Cannes. And then all these festivals.

So I've been traveling pretty much since Cannes in May for seven months now, which has been pretty exciting but also very exhausting. But it's a very good problem to have. And yeah, also in terms of Latvian films, this has been incredibly successful. And because, yeah, like here, we're the number two film of all time in the Latvian box office and on our way to being number one very soon, which is like, we also don't typically watch these kind of independent animated films, so it really came as a surprise to us as well. But I think this has shown that there is an appetite for different types of animated films.

And now that there are like these free tools that we used, so we made it with Blender, which is a free open source software, we can have these smaller studios taking bigger swings and trying out new things. And I'm sure we're going to see more of these kind of films because this has shown it can be successful. So I'm sure that people will follow this path. And hopefully it's not like the same type of like they don't copy it like just being stories about cats. Like this means all kinds of independent films you don't have to like very directly copy this but yeah and also like yeah it's a very young team like we were all

very new to this. I think the lack of experience helped us discover some new ways of dealing with things and finding new solutions. So yeah, that's, I think, part of it. It's an amazing accomplishment and the film is beautiful, so congratulations. Gintz, we do end every episode of this show by asking filmmakers what is the last great thing they have seen. It seems like you're a cinephile. Have you seen anything great lately? Yeah, well, this is kind of sad, but I've been watching some David Lynch films,

and so yeah, I watched Lost Highway, which I actually hadn't seen before. What did you think of it? I thought it was really amazing. I don't know, it's, I was, there's this, I don't know, it's really hard to describe, but that, like, I love when, I've been also listening today with Lynch interviews now, and he's been like,

reluctant explaining what his films are about. And I've been very inspired by this approach as well. That's why I'm also very, I hope the film speaks for itself in my case. And I think in his case as well, you can, you shouldn't really try to describe it. You should really embrace the ambiguity. And it's just an experience that I really loved.

And it's very kind of dark but also naive in some ways at the same time which makes the darkness feel more dark and the lightness feel more light and which feels very relevant I guess nowadays as well with all of these extreme emotions and yeah so I loved The Lost Highway. Beautifully put. Gintz, thanks I loved The Lost Highway. Beautifully put. Gintz, thanks so much for doing this. Good luck with the film going forward. Thank you. Thanks to Gintz Zilbaladas. Thanks to Jack Sanders.

Thanks to our producer Bobby Wagner for his work on today's episode. Thanks to Amanda. Next week, a brief respite from the Oscar race and an acknowledgement of dumpuary. So here's what's on the list, Amanda, for dumpuary. I think some of these are unfair. As, well, I understand that it's not necessarily that they're bad, it's just that the studios have put them in January for a lack of-

We are not dumping on them. Confidence. They have been dumped into January. Right. And we are reflecting on their dump status. OK. So we're going to talk about Better Man. We're going to talk about One of Them Days.

We're going to talk about Flight Risk, Wolfman, Back in Action, and Presence, Steven Soderbergh's new film. And Soderbergh will be on the show. Right. And I did ask him a question in your honor. I know. And he did answer it. I'm really excited. Did you cite me when you asked it?

I did. OK. He also said your name out loud. OK. Oh, all right. Well, I did just get a little palpitation right now. Like, this is why I don't do the interviews, and I'm like a little stressed out now.

But I'm excited for it. OK, well, tune in next week. We'll see you then.