The Big Picture - ‘28 Years Later: The Bone Temple’ Is Gut-Ripping and Gut-Wrenching. Plus: Mona Fastvold on ‘The Testament of Ann Lee’!

Episode Date: January 16, 2026

Sean and Amanda are joined by Chris Ryan as they enter the bone temple to discuss Nia DaCosta’s ‘28 Years Later: The Bone Temple,’ which they all thoroughly enjoyed (10:12). Then, they briefly build the Ralph Fiennes Hall of Fame, featuring their favorite performances from the legendary actor (43:47). Next, they cover Mona Fastvold’s ‘The Testament of Ann Lee,’ starring Amanda Seyfried, which they found incredibly ambitious and strange but also wonderfully complex and mature (51:39). Finally, Sean is joined by Fastvold to explain what attracted her to the story of Ann Lee and the Shaker movement; talk through the process of cowriting the screenplay with her husband, Brady Corbet; and discuss how she’s able to make epic stories with lower-budget independent filmmaking (1:01:56). Hosts: Sean Fennessey and Amanda Dobbins Guests: Mona Fastvold and Chris Ryan Producer: Jack Sanders Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

I'm Sean Fennessey. I'm Amanda Dobbins. And this is the big picture of conversation show about bone temples and shaker prophets. Today on the show, we are breaking down 28 years later, colon the bone temple with the bone god himself. Chris Ryan. The alpha is back. We'll be hanging dong later. Also later in this episode, I'll be joined by Mona Fastwold, the co-writer and director of the Testament of Anne Lee, a combo biopic music,

about the spiritual leader of the Shaker religious movement in 18th century England and America. Sounds like very normal content. Do me a favor. Don't set me up so that I tell some incredibly, like, revealing weird story. And then you're like, and now my interview is moment basketball. We'll circle back on bodice ripping right before that convo. Anne Lee is a wild movie, fascinating, ambitious.

Amanda and I both really liked it. We'll talk about it a little bit before our conversation with Mona. Amanda Seifred is at the center of it as Anne Lee, and is incredible. Stick around for the conversation. It's a nice continuation, I think, of my conversation with Brady Corbe from last year about the Brutalist and the way that they make movies together. So if you are interested in Ann Lee, go see the movie and listen to that convoy. But first, I wanted to point out a couple of things to you guys. One, this podcast has been nominated for Best TV and Film Podcasts by the I Heart Podcast Awards. Did you, did you know that, Chris?

I did know that. So what are you going to do about it? When are you going to start the bot army voting right now? Well, it's going to be interesting to see who claims third chair credit for this. And will it be... Yeah, like, what are there... Is this where Pueuosur prize winners start crawling out of the cracks? No, I couldn't possibly accept. Okay, so who's on the short list? Yeah, do they enumerate who the actual nominees are by name?

I want to know. It's sort of like the producers thing where it's like you have a certain number of names that can be submitted. So, of course, myself, Amanda, Jack Sanders, we make the show every episode. For sure. You, Chris Ryan, an essential part of this operation. philosophically. But in the material sense, would you say you've got it over, say,

Tracy Letts or Alex Ross Perry or... That's not my place. That's not really my place to say. I know how I feel. You know what I mean? What about Joanna or Mal? Like, what other names could we put on the list? God, it sounds like you guys don't need me anymore.

Rob Mahoney? It's just a Van Laithin? Yeah. Some really strong voices. Okay, Sue, are there even enough natural stones in the world to make that many trophies? It's a really good question What is the I heart podcast award trophy look like?

Do we know? I don't know. I would like to hear about Chris's plans for the acceptance speech. Yeah, if you'd like to be involved, concept it out for us right now. It's your pitch. That would be funny.

A couple of other things to mention. Congratulations to you guys. Thanks. You're a part of it as well, obviously. Dante Moore is going back to Oregon. We discussed this during our option. because they just got Dylan Raola from Nebraska, Oregon did. I'm a portal guy.

We know that about you. Weirdly. I do know what that means. Do you want to explain that for everyone else? He was only a sophomore I'm learning? Dante, yes. A red shirt sophomore. Fewer than 20 career starts under his belt.

Sure. So I see why. I think that they thought he was leaving. I think that I'll be curious to see what happens now because Dylan Railo was not cheap. Now, I don't really know if these... Moore's going to play again, because so many guys went back. They're only got like two more years of eligibility.

He's not going to play. There's no way. Because a bunch of guys from the defensive line at Oregon also stayed, and they didn't think they were... Like, DeMari Washington is going back. That's really weird. They just, they get paid pretty decently to stay in college. And people said this.

They said that they, this could be an option. You know, this is not a Jets podcast, but this really materially impacts me. I think this is great news for the Jets. Well, did you see that, like, Ty Simpson was getting offered like $6 million to stay in college. Yeah. Yeah. Man.

I don't want the Jets to draft a underdeveloped young kid and then get thrust into the worst situation in professional sports. So for me as a fan, I actually think it would be fine if they went 0 and 17 and then got Arch Manning. That sounds fine. Are you? Oh, wow. And you do, you want to be in the Archmanning business. That's another generation.

Yeah. It worked for you. You know, why not? That's true. True. I can't change the Woody Johnson fact of the Jets, but I can get as many good players as possible into the mix. That's all we can do to try to be successful. Is Arch good?

He improved. Okay, I just have seen like control, concern trolling pod. I think if you're going to draft Arch Manning, I like Aaron Glenn, like as a dude, I don't really know what the experience of cheering for his coached team is, but I think you need like a quarterback whisperer if you're going to draft. The secret, the underbelly of my take is that I think this means that the Jets will really struggle and Glenn will get fired and then they will hire an offensive guru. You fired that guy.

Kevin Petulow. Yeah. There's now discussions that he's just been demoted. Oh dear. you know, like moved out of the third chair. If we win the I-Heart Award, I will saw mine in half and give you the other half. Thanks, bud. Yeah, Kevin Petula got demoted and I listened to a 45-minute podcast already about who we should hire.

I've had an extensive conversation with Zach and Andy about who we should hire. There's a lot of ideas being thrown around in that group chat. There's a lot of emotions being thrown around that group chat. A lot of fan fiction being written about Brian Daible and Jalen Hurts' relationship and the 2017 national championship. Wow. Whether or not like they're boys,

whether they hate each other. So it's like it's an intense time. It's very sensitive. That's just to me. I know. And I feel weird because this is definitely the topic I'm most conversant on

in all of the world right now. So I feel about this I'm not saying this is not interesting to 90% of the audience, but Phoebe walked by me the other day and like yesterday actually and was like saw that I had

a Dexter Filkins New Yorker piece up on the screen. And she was like, how is that? I was thinking of reading it. And I was like, your usual Dexter Filkins just really well-reported. And every other tab was like video essays about fucking Mike McDaniel's offensive system. Yeah.

Thank you for entertaining this. Thank you. This little sideline. I appreciate your patience. Since last we met. Well, this is just sort of like a news and notes. Been looking at earrings? Should I get my ears pierced in 20?

Well, you got such rave reviews for your performance at the Globes. Yes. And those were clip-ons. Yeah, those were clip-ons. They were borrowed from my friend Lauren who took them off her ears on Saturday night and gave them to me to wear Sunday night. That's true. I really like them. Those were really nice fancy earrings, so I can't start there.

And the thing about piercing your ears, I don't know if you guys remember this from having sisters or girlfriends. And, you know, when you were teenagers, neither. You have to leave the studs in for a while. And that I could never make it through leaving the studs in for however many weeks. I looked too much like my mother. There was something about the face symmetry where I can't wear small earrings because that's just really then I was just like I'm not ready emotionally for this. But now you've crossed. But then I did.

I felt really fancy wearing the earrings and I liked that. So I mean obviously there are a clip on earrings. out in the world. If you do get them pierced, I get to film you and post it on the YouTube channel. Yeah. Why?

Because you think that that would be painful? I think it would just be amusing. Like IVF and two kids. Like, I'm good. They can shoot whatever in my ears. I'm fine. They can shoot whatever. I think you should do it.

I think you should do it. Okay. Yeah. But I haven't solved for the problem of the six weeks until they... Or maybe... Maybe they've improved times. You should wear a bean.

on the show for like six weeks. Just cover your ears for every episode. I think that would be good. You're your Deadpool mask? That'd be good. It just was a countdown in Doom's Day. Will Deadpool be in Doomsday? Will he return? For sure.

Did you see the Rousseau's tweeted? I did see this. A very cryptic thing about... These are not trailers. And they are not teasers. They're clues. And stories. Well...

I think I've solved it. Do you think that there's going to be like a extinction level event hitting all of these characters like in the first five minutes. I suppose that's possible but how is this a clue?

Then what happens to the baby? I don't know. I don't know. And also in which does an extinction level event happening in one multiverse affect all multiverses? I mean it depends on the kind of event and I also do, is that my camera? I don't know who Steve Rogers' baby is.

I just want to say that. I kind of got confused. You think it's Dante Moore? What are you talking about here? I used to be really into cable. Cable, yeah. The character Cable. Time Traveler.

I was like, oh, you switched to YouTube? TV? No. Me and Bill, keeping Spectrum afloat. I think I knew about... Cable made an appearance in Deadpool 2. And there's a baby in Cable that they have to... I think it's Nathan...

You know who played cable in Deadpool 2? Yeah, Josh Brulman. Yeah, I know. But I'm not... You see Deadpool 2? No, I didn't. There's a baby in cable. Is that...

It's Nathan Summers. It's like Gene Gray and Psychopoxys kids. Havoc? Yeah. Is it? I thought it was the character of having. There's somebody, he's important. Is Cable a person or a movie?

He's a person. So there's a baby inside the person? No, he's just protecting the child. He's protecting him. Yeah, and then there's like a mutant virus. It's very like aliens, Terminator, influenced run of X-Men comics with time travel and apocalyptic events. Okay.

Bishop was the man. Yeah, he had big guns. Anyway, Doomstay. Yeah. Every episode should start with the Doomsday update. It's like the new Odyssey, but we hate it. You know, I'm just like, what's going on with these fucking idiots? Let's talk about a really good movie.

Let's talk about 28 years later, the Bone Temple. That was a lot of throat clearing for an episode about a movie that I think we're all pretty excited about. So this is the follow-up to last summers, 28 years later, which was the follow-up to two previous 28 films. It featured the return of Danny Boyle. These scripts are written by Alex Garland. It was their reunion back then. It was your number one movie of 2025. Nia da Costa, the filmmaker, is stepping in.

now for the Bone Temple. It is again written by Garland. She is bringing with her, the cinematographer she's been working with recently, who is probably best known for his work with Steve McQueen, Sean Bobbitt. We'll talk about him a little bit. And the film stars as 28 years later starred, Ray Fines, Jack O'Connell after the ending of 28 years later is back in a big role here. Alfie Williams, who played Spike in the last film.

Aaron Kelleman and Chi Lewis Perry also return. Taking place after the events of the previous film, Spike is inducted into Sir Jimmy, Crystal's gang of acrobatic killers in a post-apocalyptic Britain ravaged by the rage virus. Meanwhile, Dr. Ian Kelson forms a new relationship with potentially world-changing consequences. Chris, I'm going to start with you. What did you think of the Bone Temple? Unbelievably, I loved it almost as much as I love the first one.

If there's 10 better movies than this this year, it's going to be nuts. And it works in very different ways than the first 28 years later, me at least. I mean, like, I had such an emotional reaction to the... first one of, you know, the third film in this series. Anita Costa just has like a completely different visual language that she's using. I think her camera is much more of a witness than it is like a protagonist in this film, but in a very cool way. And I kept thinking about her recent appearance on the Criterion Clause.

She talked a lot about come and see and the cranes are flying and movies about what happens to the sort of collective psyche of people after they've gone. through like a war or, you know, in this case, an apocalypse. And I think that's really what was driving a lot of the stuff in this movie. And it's a brutal watch, but it's also a really, really, really funny movie. Yeah. What did you think? Yeah, I mean, it's definitely gnarly.

And I would say 28 years later was extremely gnarly and also had a few more action set pieces built within the gnarliness. And I would say that this is just, is pure gnarly. And then, honestly, like, pure entertainment. Any movie where Ray finds is dancing is just, it's automatically in my personal Hall of Fame. It's really important. I was also thinking about it. I've obviously been listening to both the Marty Supreme score, but also the Marty Supreme playlist. And if you build your movie textually around, like, 80's New Wave,

I'm in, you know? Like I just absolutely. Having a moment. Yeah. So there are a lot of, you know, flourishes. And as you like, Nita Costa brings her own sensibility to this well-established world. And it, like, really played for me. And I'm not someone who likes to see people skinned alive.

Yes. This is two things. One, this is an extremely violent movie, more violent than the last film. I would argue probably more violent than the previous two installments, in part because it's a really more. of a pure horror movie. It's not just a zombie movie, but it is, there's a kind of funny games-esque torture aspect to the movie. Yeah. Strangers. That pure viscera, that human viscera, not just the zombie apocalypse stuff.

And then also, I think, because, you know, Nia Costa did make, did have a kind of Candyman reboot that she made a few years ago. She understands the mechanics of horror movies. Yeah. This movie is using those mechanics much more so than what Boyle was doing, which, you know, is a really excitingly messy movie in a lot of ways. And there's a lot of, like, um, there's a lot of, risk-taking formally what is happening in that movie. This movie is more of a classical horror-structured film.

It doesn't have as much incident, though, and it doesn't have as many set pieces. And I think that there will be some people who struggle with it because, quote-unquote, not as much happens, or you could say by the time you get to the end of it, like, it didn't change the trajectory in the story.

I think if any of the big revelation, I mean, there's two rather large revelations towards the end of the film, and I think one of them might just be, like, kind of lost to history. You know, I mean, it's a little ambiguous, but... Meaning if they don't make a third film.

No, the third film, I think, seems nailed on to happen. But, like, there's things that happen towards the end of the movie that are, like, could be world-changing, but also could just be lost to the sands of time. Oh, I see what you're saying. Yes. We will get into that and we'll get spoilery as we go along here. The thing that jumped out to me as I thought about it immediately after it ended was that this is a really interesting installment in the second in a trilogy run.

Yeah. It's technically the fourth 28 movie, but since these movies were... conceived together and Garland wrote them together. And I never sold my Garland stock and I never will. And this movie again proves to me that he is so good at not just creating propulsive action, but blending theme and deep ideas about the modern world into conventionally entertaining movies.

But this is like in the, I'm not saying it's as good as these films, but it accomplishes a similar thing to Empire Strikes Back, Dark Night, Two Towers, Last Jedi, Ocean's 12, where it's like, this is the place to take some risks. To do some different things. they may feel like side quests, they can end in really like beguiling and upsetting ways because you know that there's something else coming on the other side.

You know there's going to be a third installment. It sounds like Danny Boyle is coming back for that third installment. I think so, yes. Based on what we see and what we know about it. Right. And so this movie, it leans a bit away from Spike, the character. It does. You know, he's not the central focus of the story for much of it,

though he is present throughout the entire movie. And it leans towards Jimmy Crystal and his seven finger, fingers, these these bandits, these evil bandits. And then Dr. Kelson and Samson, who is the alpha that you mentioned, who is an infected megaman. Yeah. Who was... With a heart of gold. Well, a heart of dope. That's right. That's right. In the first film, he is shown as like a kind of infected leader, one that seems to be evolving. And I think in the backdrop of that, you start to think about like, you know, steps of evolution even for some,

for zombies, you know what I mean? Like, what does that mean? God, you know, like the point you're making about the second film thing

is really interesting because I thought that this was a tremendously cool way to world build without showing it. Like, going deeper into like these different characters that we had, maybe seen in the background

of the first film. You know, obviously Jack O'Connell's, Jimmy shows up in the very beginning in the very end of the first film with some, spots in the middle. And Dr. Kelson exists as a kind of

like Wizard of Oz character in the first film, but is obviously very humanized in this movie and is vulnerable and weird and funny and longing. And I felt like I understood so much more about the state of the world without ever getting a voiceover or title card explaining what was happening anywhere outside of the United Kingdom.

And even the way they introduced the new characters. who are kind of stuck between the fingers and... The alpha and the alpha and everything. But what those characters, what they've been up to, how they're living, where they're living, just kind of gives you more pieces of, okay, like, this is how the virus infected some people

and how other people are... And so it expands it. But without having to do any exposition, No one in that house says, well, four years ago, we, like, put up this fence and, like, here is how the combination code lacks. It's just... You just accept. Yeah. Yeah.

No, I think that's a really good point because it being years later and not days or months later, it gives it, like, an added sense of, like, acceptance around what has happened to this part of the world. We know that it's only really these British Isles, right, that are trapped in this way, that the world at large, Europe at large, has staved off the virus. but these people are stuck. Yeah, there's this funny thing happening where, you know, Kelson, the Fines character, at one point says that he's starting to basically forget

what life was like before the infection, before the outbreak of the virus. Right, well, he's talking with the Jimmy Fingers character. Jack McConnell, yeah. Yeah, yeah, and he's like, you're eight, so you probably don't remember.

Here's what I remember. Yeah, and he's like, I don't remember going to shops. Yeah, and he's like the, I remember having a personal computer, but I didn't, you know, but I don't, but like now big chunks of,

time or disappearing. And on the flip side of that, the experience of this film is it's being released just a matter of months after the original. So you actually do have this sense of continuity. It's just a great experience because you have the sense of continuity with the characters and the story. You don't have to like teach yourself anything before going to it. But it's just different enough and just it's got that new perspective from DeCasta of like, okay, well, what if we shot it more like this? And what if it felt more like that? And what if really the infected were a tertiary worry? I mean, there's a couple of points here where some of the more accomplished killers in this movie treat infected running at them like, oh, who cares? And I'll just cut this person's

throat. It's like ninja warfare. Yeah, they're all samurai's out there who have a ton of experience managing. And we see that, you know, there is this other group of people that you're alluding to that are in the film who are sort of just like native villagers who protect themselves and occasionally attempt to kind of hunt and explore the world at large. And they have way less experience, even 28 years later, way less ability to effectively kill these, these, you know, fast moving creatures. And that was obviously the innovation of the original film was that it felt like very novel and knew that the zombies were fast. But we're kind of like dispense with that. There's been so much zombie stuff in 28 years. We need to find other places to go. And I really like where Garland

wanted to go. And there's two tracts of it. And I think they're obviously speaking to each other. there's the Kelsen tract, the sort of the healer, and then there's Jimmy Crystal and the fingers and the sort of like rage and opportunity to pursue like a cult apparatus in the face of these kinds of tragedies. And the way you can kind of compel people to join you when no one knows which way is up.

Which one do you want to talk about first? Let's talk about Jimmy first. Okay. I thought this was a fascinating characterization of somebody who I think you can kind of see in genre pieces across cinematic history where it's just like

this person who's taking advantage of like a particularly dire situation to create a cult around them and is saying that they're the chosen person that they're the chosen one

who's getting communications from the dark lord you got to do what I'm telling you whether it's David Koresh or whatever these people who are like kind of these incredibly central figures and this kind of story

and then I just there's a couple of scenes with him in this movie where I just, rather than being revolted by him and even though he is like an absolutely amazing villain, I thought he was fascinating. The conversation that he winds up having with Kelson is so good and so interesting and his sort of like, only I can hear the devil's teachings because I am his chosen son and all the stuff that he's doing. And Garland's not like shy about like obviously there's a lot of echoes of like of contemporary leadership in in in in our real world that he's talking about in this movie but he's never like too over the top with it you know what i

mean like i never thought it was too yeah it's it's grounded and i and i credit garland which is something i don't say very often on this podcast both for the the character is like is quite literally of this earth. And so, you know, he's like negotiating with the Kelson character and he's kind of like, here's my problem and like, here's where I am with my dad. He hasn't taken on full cult of personality. And then the way that Jack O'Connell plays him, even when he's in like full cult leader mode and giving all his speeches, it's, it's weird. You know, it's a little, it's, he's trying to pump himself up along with it, you know? You can see a little bit of his kind of insecurity and vulnerability just in flashes that he is a charlatan and it's communicated to the audience,

but it's not overt because he is able to command his flock. He really can get these people to do these awful things to innocence. And that that is like, that's the persuasive power of cult-like leadership. And the thing that unites the performance that Fines gives and the performance that O'Connell gives is that like you could run that thing with 99 out of 100 actors and it would just be a disaster. Like if this didn't work, it would be only. almost unwatchable. Yes.

And they both... And it's hard to look at a lot of what they do. I mean, you've gotten a lot tougher over the years, but I saw you wincing in your seat a lot when we were watching this. Because it's really gnarly. And sometimes I'm just kind of like, you know, I'm looking elsewhere. I've trained myself to be like, okay, I understand what you're doing. And now I don't need to see any more people being peeled.

Though I did find it. And I know this is like a horror movie convention. A lot of the real moments of violence happen off screen. Like a lot of the knifings happen and like you cut away or like a hook or something goes in and I understand that you can't like film. Elements of surprise too. Yeah. And like implication and that sometimes not seeing things as scarier. Right.

But so I did okay. But yeah, it was gnarly. Yeah. I think the other thing too is that DeCasa's arc is fascinating and weird. She made a small Sundance indie And then she made a Candyman reboot And then she made a Marvel movie Which is the lowest grossing Marvel movie of all time

She was pretty open about being an unpleasant experience I clearly went into the blender And it doesn't seem like she got to make Exactly the movie she wanted to make And then she just made this reimagining of Heta Gobbler, Heta, which is on Prime right now If people want to watch it, they came out last year Which I thought was interesting

But particularly there's a sense of anything can happen violent chaos in that movie, which is really just like a chamber piece at a party. Sure. But it does seem like anybody could get shot in the head at any moment in that movie. And this movie has the same tool. Like it has the same strength where a character who you think is going to be with us for a long time could die at any moment. And there are real stakes against the figures that we're following.

And because the movie kind of background spike a little bit, there's like a, there is a real sense of unpredictable. ability in it? The hallmark of these last two films for me has been a real shock at what is unfolding on screen. I think I went into the first film expecting it to be much more about Aaron Taylor Johnson and Jody Comer. I had no idea that this kid was going to be the hero of the film. And I had no idea that the movie was going to deviate from your more traditional like us versus the infected narrative into this kind of like almost like,

you know, super cathartic ideas about grief and letting go and death and all this stuff. And in this film, I kind of just expected the spike stuff to pick up.

And so this idea that these two ideologies are basically on a collision course and those ideologies are as plain as day of science and reason versus faith or demagogu. And it's,

to be able to do that, it's not even like Trojan horseing, it's like, it's really like hiding your punches until they can be the most effective swings. Yeah, we should talk about probably the Kelston strain of this and how it intersects with the infected as well. I don't mind saying I was watching the movie and I was like, so this is Dr. Anthony Fauci.

That's who Dr. Kelson is. Like there's very clearly a healer heal thyself narrative here. And Kelson was introduced in the last film as potentially a threat. A man gone mad who covers himself in iodine. We assume it's blood. Right. And he's building a giant bone temple.

Yes. He literally built a bone temple. He is treating and clearing. You know, at the beginning of this film, he is, you know, clearing the sort of cartilage away from bones after he, you know, burns them up. And it seems like he's a crazy person. But the film goes to great lengths to show us that he's still like a man of science and still studying and still trying to learn. And we watched in the last film him slowly building this relationship. with the Alpha Samson,

who once again is just nude throughout the film. This film is unafraid to show Samson in full. And he realizes that when he sort of neutralizes him, narcotizes him with his blow dart, that Samson is not just docile,

but maybe there's something else going on behind the eyes. His humanity has been unlocked in some way. Yeah. And it starts to get his wheels turning and he starts to think on, if not a cure, a kind of evolution of the virus. A treatment.

Yes. And, you know, maybe a solution to this problem that is, that is completely a vaccine. A vaccine. A source. And Kelson is shown to be like a very sensible, sensitive, sincere person. It's not a cynical portrayal of a person like this at all. And a lonely person, too, you know, because he keeps, he, he, he, sympathizes with the

Samson with the alpha but wants him to like speak as well you know and the music is woven in because he's like lost all contact with like other humans and so this is these are like his memories and he sings and dances and listens to the music a lot. Lots of

Duran Duran. Yes because he wants like you know he's just looking for some sort of connections so and I think that it's not just that he's like practical and looking for the cure, but he's trying to cure himself in a way as well. Sure. Yeah. I mean, there's also like some really interesting stuff. So basically, I mean,

we're allowed to be a little bit more detailed about how we're talking about it. We've already spoiled a bunch of this movie if you don't want to hear anymore. Go see the film. The treatment plan is essentially opiates. You know, he's giving the alpha, he's giving Samson morphine. And after a few weeks or however long it's been that he's been treating him and that clearly Samson is regaining some elements of humanity, if still like unable to speak, he's essentially running out of morphine, like morphine supply in the United Kingdom. And this is something that comes up a couple of times in the film

where, you know, there's that commune that you were talking about of villagers are using spears. Like, we are running out of the sort of man-made resources of the old world, the guns, the drugs, the everything that we've kind of built up. And he's just kind of talking to himself, but talking to Samson, and he says, This is, with the rate you're consuming this, we have about two more weeks, or you can take the big trip.

And I put you out, and I put you to sleep, and you go out in like a way. And he's like, but if you could just consent, like, if you could just tell me that's okay. And he's just basically kind of saying that out loud to himself. And as he's about to give this guy the shot, Samson says, moon, which is, you know, a revelation, but also kind of tragic. because now this guy is obviously showing progress, but they're running out of the medicine that they need to treat his psychosis, essentially. Did you notice the poppies that showed up in the field

at the very end of the movie? You know what, I didn't. While Refines was dancing, yeah, there are red poppies throughout. The opiates. Yeah. Not unlike the Wizard of Oz, just like Dr. Kels and the Wizard of Oz figure. I found this component of the movie

to be what separated it from other things. I think a lot of filmmakers can do, we're going to have crazy people peeling skin off and this will be like a fun time at the movies in a good January movie. This, the contrast between these two components and just utilizing Ray Fines who, you know, we sing his praises

anytime he shows up in a movie, the three of us love him. He might be the most daring and flexible post-movie star that we have. Like he has made so many different kinds of movies. He can take on any kind of complex material. He doesn't have to be making the third and fourth, 28 movies. You could say this is very easily

above his pay grade and he could just be making Shakespearean adaptations. But he fucking loves this shit. He likes being Voldemort. He likes going into these worlds and he's so, so special in this movie because he's so free with his body. He's so unafraid.

I mean, he's practically nude throughout the entire film. Covered in orange eye. He's covered in the paint and the paint and the eye black near the end of the film. You know, like you say, he's so magical and musical with his dance movements and the way that he kind of turns himself over to a character.

it just makes a movie like this so much better when you have someone who is so free. Yeah, and then the long-term thinking to know that when Jack O'Connell and Ray Fines finally get a big scene together where they're going to be like essentially doing a piece of theater with a gorgeous backdrop of Northern England or whatever. I think so.

Yeah. But these two guys are just going to be chewing scenery for five, six, seven minutes talking about their lives, how they've arrived at this point where they believe one thing or another, and where they kind of find themselves in this, like, struggle where it's like, we're going to have to make some sort of arrangement, or I'm going to kill you. But the contrast of their performances, you know, O'Connell initially doing grand gestures and his blonde locks, and he's like, I'm Jimmy, I'm the seven. And then he's like continually comes down to the point where it's

just like two guys talking on stools. Well, yeah, because, because Kelson has disarmed. him, right? He's disarmed him by asking him questions, by making him feel safe by not posing a threat. Like, this is also someone who's lived in fear of death, living among the infected for 28 years. He's figured out ways to stay calm in the face of all this danger. Two really exciting actors. O'Connell is in the middle of quite a run. You know, I think you both were fairly early on Rogue Heroes. I was because of him. Yeah, I mean, I've loved him since. up. Yes.

Start up in 71 and all the great films that he's made in his early stretch. But now if you look, if you go to 2022 when Rogue Hero started and, you know, underrated in Ferrari, I think, the best part of Back to Black by far. Sinners last year as Remick. And now these two films. He's also fantastic in the North Water, which is 21, which is Andrew Hayes mini series that he made. It's like Jack O'Connell and Colin Farrell. I mean, I'll tell you who he reminded me of in this movie is Gary Oldman.

He's giving a Gary Oldman performance. It is, it feels like a little bit of his Dracula, a little bit of his professional. Exactly. That kind of like greasy, slick, malevolent figure. Yeah. That there's something like you really don't want to cross him because things will go very, very bad. And he's just magnificent in this movie. And he's a disgusting character.

I mean, he is vile, the things that he does and the way that he takes advantage of children, women, and, you know, just innocence throughout the film. But you kind of can't take your eyes off of them. I was blown away by him and I usually am like I'm a huge fan of his but this is a really easy part to make completely over the top and ridiculous

it's not that much different than like John Malkovich and Conair or name any like overqualified actor in like a peak villainy part but he finds pathos in this guy you know what I mean and you really do in the same way that Kelson is saying that he can't really remember a time

before the infection you start to get an idea of why Jimmy would be the way he is if he's eight years old and the first thing that he kind of remembers is his father leading a horde of infected to storm a church and kill an entire village.

If that shapes your worldview yeah he's a con man but I think he also believes the con. Were you about on telitubbies? I mean I remember I was babysitting when they were on so I consumed them as like Was that dance that Jemima?

Yeah it was very good. I mean it is that's a very funny, very specific and accurate inclusion that's over several films now because aren't the little kids watching telitubbies when there's like that horrible raid in the first? Yes, it's very upset.

Yeah, spot on. And they are really weird and in their own way assigned event times. Jack O'Connell would be like, they're robots that have TVs and their tummies. And then they're watching on their tummies. And so on. And so, it's really, yeah.

It's funny. Yeah. this movie is like kind of a miracle I wasn't sure that any of this stuff was going to work these last two films and I'm really kind of blown away by how good they are and now

you know this is a deep spoiler but by the time we get to the end of this film a long rumor thing that some thought would happen in the last film does actually come to pass in this movie which is that Killian Murphy's character returns and he returns and we see that he is raising his daughter I guess that's his daughter he had with Naomi Harris yes

and he's teaching her about history. And she's studying World War II. Yes. And the inter between World War I and World War II. Why the allies were more conciliatory and helpful in the post-World War II era rather than the post-World War I era, which thematically, I think, is Garland's sort of saying, like, this will never work if every swing of the pendulum is about taking. Punishing. Down the opposite side. Yes.

The more vindictive, the punishment in the aftermath. If you need like an example of like, I mean, I'm sure there are people who thought that was stupid, but like I think that that's an example of why Alex Garland is really, really good is that you can have a character sort of off, half off screen for some of the scene discussing Churchill and how that.

Yeah, he does if, um, those forget history are doomed to repeat it like from the kitchen. Yes. Like while he's making toast. Yeah. Um, that was a gasp and applaud moment in our screening,

as was probably the crescendo of the movie, which I guess I don't know if you want to talk about that. We should. I mean, it's an amazing feat of filmmaking, which is that so finds his character who has been set up to be Satan by Jack O'Connell's character. Yeah, he's standing in.

Standing in for Satan. He's like, Jack O'Connell's like, I need you to pretend to be the devil so that my minions continue to believe that I am in contact with the devil. And if you don't do that, I will kill you. effectively. And so we already know Dr. Kelston's a bit of a showman and he conjures up this

performance as the Dark Lord set to Iron Maiden's number of the beast. Gives, blows cocaine into the Jimmy's faces. Is it cocaine? Do we know that? I think it was supposed to be him creating. He was like he was mixing up coke or some sort of speed. Yeah. And gives this kind of ravishing visual performance. And like I said, DeCosta and Bobbitt very free with the camera and like what kind of, it turns into a music video. And a very exciting. And a very exciting. exciting and amusing music video, seen through the eyes of the jimmies who were baffled as to what they're watching

and then coming in thrall. Yes. It concludes with this epic kind of fire dance that he does with these shoulder weights that are knocking the sparks loose from the fire inside. It's just an amazing set piece. I guess there is also a crucifixion

that happens in the aftermath of that. It is a really dramatic and violent and fascinating conclusion. We have also seen that Samson has sort of become humanized and become a potential victim once again of the infected, even though he remains clearly the infected. Right.

But he's worried about his access to SSRIs. Listen, I saw the puppies. They were there. That wasn't a mistake. Can he piece it together? And, you know, you also see Kelson, like, doing some, you know, longhand math and consulting some books in a way that suggests he's trying to, like, make morphine again. Yes.

Yes. I hope Samson's going to be okay. Well, he says he's like, I think that there is... He still absolutely wallups that entire train car of people. He does. He does. Or he was infected. He goes back to the place where both, I believe, his child has been born, his zombie human hybrid child.

Yes, from the previous film. And also, it turns out the place where it looks like he was when the infection started, when the outbreak started. Just saying that people applauded in our screening for that fire dance. And then there was a gasp and a light round of applause for Killian Murphy. I only mentioned that just because I think this might be the most creatively invigorating running franchise in movies right now and even the way that they construct

the way that they tell a complete story and then do basically a two-minute coda at the end of both of these past previous films is like kind of the way this shit's off should work it's like there is another world out there there is another story we're going to tell it's not going to affect

we didn't stop telling our movie 35 minutes ago in order to set up some new problem. You know what I mean? I think it's pretty awesome. I think part of my comfort with that is the idea that there's not going to be 10 more of these, that this is pitched as a trilogy, sold as a trilogy. Garland wrote three scripts. That makes me more at ease with the structure of the story.

I generally am a little bit dubious of here's a two-minute coda. Come back for the next one. It has to be done really well. When we walked out of 28 years later, we were like, listen, we really like Jack O'Connell and we'll go wherever he leads. But we were like, are we sure? It was confusing. Are we sure? And like what's going on here and let's talk about the rest of the movie.

And this, you know, confirms both that coda and the strategy. There were people who were like, I cannot endorse this film as fully as I would like to because of the last scene. I also think like asking global but especially American audiences to know who Jimmy Saville is and know like where the influences are coming from on this was a lot. I think by the time this movie comes out people would either read about it or it's not really that

necessary in this film because I think they come up with like their own kind of mythology and iconography. That's why I think it works is if you understand the reference and you get the idea of sort of like a child predator and someone who appears to be friendly but yeah how's that great coda with the like closing note on the how's that as well but if you

if you don't get it it still works he still seems like a demon you know there's not really creepy yes this coda is I think totally more in line with the rest of the film it actually I mean it doesn't just feel like a callback because Killing Murphy is in it but even the way that it's staged that sort of like long lens final shot

it felt like the first film it felt like 28 days later and it brings back the theme the sort of the score from the first film which um I would imagine that there will be an attempt to kind of like reckon with and re-examine the first movie in this final installment.

I imagine they go back to London. Perhaps. It would be exciting. As a cure possible. There's, look, I mean, the way to make this more practically and to make this more cheaply and thus make it more suitable for Sony

is to keep it out in the hills and keep it rural. It is very beautiful. Five or six people running around in circles. But, you know, I mean, the cool thing about what this movie does is that, you know, it takes two major chess pieces off the board. So it's like, what's at stake? What are we, what is the end goal of this? Is it just about spike becoming a man and becoming the kind of

man that, like, you know, you would hope he would become? Or is it about we actually have Dr. Kelson's secret recipe to turn everyone back? Mm-hmm. To be determined. Would you say more of like a hungry, like the Wolf, Rio, girls on film Duran Duran Fan, or more of like an ordinary world, like early 90s? fan. I mean definitely Rio Girl's on film. Yeah. But you were getting into ordinary world, I noticed. You know, when that acoustic guitar hits. Listen, I am, I appreciate

the entire Uvra. Was interesting to get a kid A needle drop which would be right up against when the infection is O2 or 01 or whatever so it's just right up right up against the... So he kind of stopped getting into new music, Kelson, roughly like 93, but

He got brought back. Hung around for Radiohead. Radiohead was still of interest. Pretty common. That song is now appeared in three films in the last five years. Yeah, well, it's just another catching up with us. We are in charge of everything now and the references. I just like, we could have just done the national anthem.

That would have been another way to... Oh, dun, dun, da, yeah, you know. Everything in its right place is like, we're good. We're good. Take a break. Take a break. I'm just really... I was blown away by this, and I just can't...

believe that this is what's happening with this series of films. Let's do an ad hoc where he finds Hall of Fame. Okay. Absolutely. I don't know if there's a logical time to do this. I don't know if this would normally be an entire episode. I started trying to rough it out in my head last night and I was like, this guy's got 25 essential performances.

Yeah. So I want your feedback. I want your thoughts. I got down to 10, but I couldn't figure out one of them, which one he should be. But like, I know that some are missing, but I got down to 10. Can we do stone cold locks to start? Sure. Yeah.

Shindler's List. Yep. Have to. The English patient. Have to. The Grand Budapest Hotel. Yes. I think you have to do one of the Harry Potter films.

Sure. I don't know which one. I don't remember which one either. Is there like a Voldemort flashback one? Is there one where he's like doing a bunch of different stuff? No. I mean it's... But it's played by another actor because his face isn't...

Okay. As best I can tell. I mean, I would say, Probably just Deathly Hallows 2 since it's the final film and it features like the final confrontation. Yep. So that's four. Okay. Do you think there are any more stone cold locks?

Uh, conclave. I thought about it. Um, uh, he elevates that movie in a big way. That's another example of something that could have seemed very... So you're the cool thing about it. I mean, there's one more. There's one more within the world of the big picture, which is a bigger splash. Yes.

I mean, it just like has to... Well, we are doing it. This is our podcast. Okay. So that's six. Conclavin will say a bigger splash. Yeah. I will throw out a couple...

So here's one of the things about him is that about five or six years into his career, he just develops this ability to go from... He can play the fifth on the call sheet to the first on the call sheet, and he makes this big of an impact either way. Yes. So in Bruges, or in Hail Caesar,

he is able to make a crater in the film. He steals both of us. Yeah, he steals both movies. And the same, honestly, I think he has like two minutes of screen time in the Hurlacher and he's awesome in it. So what do we do about that? That's part of why I found this to be challenging

because like he's not essential to the Craig Bond films but I love when he shows up. He's great. You know, he lifts those movies when he pops up and he's a nice counterpoint to Craig. So you have Schindler's English patient, a Harry Potter, Graham Budapest is four,

Conclave, let's say, is five. Would you put 28 years later? And bigger splash is six. Six is bigger splash. Let's say Bone Temple is seven. Great. I agree. I'm with that.

This is a great performance. I think personally, like my favorite underrated performance by him, two of them, one is Strange Days. I would have nominated a strange days. It has a little bit of a different look than probably you're used to seeing from him. And the other one is Constant Gardner. Okay. Which is the Jolla Carrey adaptation with Rachel Weiss, which I think he's phenomenal in. So I am down with that.

I think Ten would then have to be Quiz Show. I thought you, yeah, quiz show has to be in there. So then that's like, that's 10 right there, but that does not account for any of those super cameos that he's so good at. So we then basically, yeah, there's no Mallory, no M. Yeah. There's no Hail Caesar. There's no. Burt Locker and Bruges.

He's also brilliant as Francis Dollar Hyde and Red Dragon, which is a flawed movie, but he's very good in that movie. No shots of Tom Noon. It's hard for me to see it. I mean, I didn't even put up like the end of the affair or whatever, but that was. Yeah, that's a good movie. Yeah. No, that's a really good film and he's really good in that. That movie's a little lost.

Made in Manhattan is not good. He's not bad in it, but that's, it's, it's, I don't appreciate it's politics. Did not realize he played Heathcliff in Wuthering Heights. I know. I didn't see this with Julia Pinoche. Yeah. I got to watch this. And then, wait, hold on.

Is he in the return as well? Is that, okay, so do you know what the return is? I do. I actually never saw it. I didn't either, but a friend of mine just texted. This is a retelling of the Odyssey. so we're going to have to see that. Yep.

What about the Prince of Egypt? Did you see the corals? Can you see the what? The choral? The corral? I think it's coral. There's no E. So I'm sorry for being an American.

Oh, that's about the World War II singing group, right? Yes, I haven't seen that yet. It was heavily advertised in London. I mean, I definitely am going to do like the, if I ever have a date of myself again, like Nuremberg, coral back to back, you know, that we didn't say the, that's like a really, definitely go up with 15 other things. you could do with a date of yourself. Get your ears.

Next time I get the flu. You know, okay. The menu we didn't mention. A huge hit. I know. A movie that also does not work without him. I like that movie. It's got some heavy detractors,

but I'm a fan. Remember the dig? When he was an archaeologist with Carrie Mulligan? Is that a Netflix film? It was. I mean, it was 2021 also. So I needed that to be the English nation. Is there anything in the deep British lore from the 80s?

that we're not thinking of. I mean, he's in Peter Greenway as a baby of Macon. I was thinking of that. I can't say that I remember that. I, you know, Shindler's list was really a major breakthrough for him. I don't know about this Weathering Heights. I would like to see this. I mean, it's not screen, but I just thought I would mention.

It's his film debut. You can find a lot of his, there's several of his works, his theater works, are on, like, online in various places, especially his collaborations with David Hare. Okay. What about Cronenberg's Spider, I think, is on the list. Okay. The first film I ever reviewed for the Ithican in college.

Nice. The failed Avengers relaunch opposite Uma Thurman, not the Avengers comic book characters, the British TV spy series. I remember that. And then what was the Kingsman that he was in? Was he in the prequel? The King's Man. The King's Man.

Yes, from 2021. Is that the prequel one? Yes. Okay. What's he doing in that? he invents the Kingsman. Oh, yeah, that makes sense. He's like the guy

with the first suit shop. He also directed an adaptation of Coriolanus. I remember being pretty good. Really a war movie. Anything else? We did our 10 pretty easily. The 10 was pretty easy

and we have like 5 to 7. Also check this out. Yeah. Any other thoughts? Do you think we'll get 28 years later the last year or whatever

this time next year, next summer. No. I think it's going to be a little while. Danny Boyle has a movie coming out at the end of this year. So if Danny Boyle is making it, I don't believe production has begun. It depends on probably how this movie does too.

I think it's tracking for less. Like 20 years later. It were four days, yeah. Word of mouth will be good, but I do think that there will be also the, that was fucking brutal word of mouth as well coming out. Yes. It's extremely violent

and hard to take it. I come out of this with just like I need to cost a season tickets now Interesting Yeah just like sign on Just I think I get what she's go You should watch Heta you should see what you think of that I got it's just so so thrilled with what she did with this

She did it really it's you know As I said before we began recording This story has good bones You know it has really good bones It is it is in a way I almost don't want Boyle to go back I want to see another filmmaker's point of view Because I think it could with stand another reimagining, another visual imagination.

But if you're going to do Pillion Murphy. Yeah, you got it. And if there's going to be some sort of conclusion to the story, which I don't know. I mean, I imagine if you wrote it as a trilogy. Although knowing Alex Carlin, maybe he's like, there's no fucking end. This is the end. Like, we are all infected, you know? Yeah.

That would be appropriate. C.R., thank you. Yeah, my pleasure. We're going to talk a little bit about Anne Lee, but you wouldn't watch a film starring a woman, so we're going to ask you to move on. And now my interview was Monifaceville. Okay, we're back. Before I talked to Monofastful, I thought we should.

talk about the Testament of An Lee a little bit. So, you know, this film's co-written with Mona and Brady Corbe, just like The Brutalist, and it stars Amanda Seifred, Thomas and McKenzie, Lewis Pullman, Stacey Martin, Tim Blake Nelson, Christopher Abbott. It is a story I'd not heard anything about. I'd never heard of Anne Lee. It spans 18th century England and America. This visionary spiritual leader, Anne Lee comes along, rises from obscurity.

She forges this radical movement called The Shakers, inspired by the Quaker movement. she suffers significant personal tragedy and in the wake of that develops this concept of celibacy colliding with a kind of convulsive musical reckoning with God and the film portrays her struggles and also her brilliance and her radiance and features like a wildly transformative

performance by Amanda Seifred I know you first saw it out of Venice It did You liked it then Yeah I really liked it And I knew Nothing about it Besides what was printed

In the programs And I also knew nothing about the shakers And I didn't even know As it's explained Fairly early in the film That they are called shakers Or at least in the context of the film They're called shakers

Because they were shaking Quakers So I didn't even know to anticipate the movement and the choreography and certainly the music that was that is a major part of this because in addition to it being an examination of the founding of a religious spiritual movement and also fast fold and corbe's sequel or next installment of um the cult of personality and self-belief and hatred in the wake of personal tragedy. It is also like a musical and it has and with a lot of dancing as well and not your traditional like theater like jazz hands. Really, really memorable movement. And that is actually what stood out to me

the most. I loved it. I loved the choreography and the way that. that it incorporates the traditional shaker music and the very weird dancing and literalizes that shaking Quaker. It surprised me. I hadn't seen anything like it. Yeah, it's a cool act of not just synthesis, but synchronization.

Like the choreography and the music, which is written with Daniel Blumberg, fits the filmmaking style. The movie, the camera moves and the story moves the way that the shakers move. And particularly during these ecstatic dance sequences, you know, singing sequences, you can kind of feel how you could get wrapped up in this movement, which on its face is quite severe and quite strange,

a very alien, I think, to a 21st century sensibility. But there's something about the kind of emotional hysteria of this movie that is very transfixing. And Fastfold does not wink. She never is like, isn't this funny or weird? she's, it's just a portrait, which I think is a really, really good choice. And I feel like in these times, whenever you're trying to tell a story

about a person like this, it's very, and you know, the brutalist got kind of held to task for this as well, but it's something that I liked about that movie also, which is that this is a person who transformed their lives and attempted to heal a deep wound by focusing on construction and imagination and community.

Like those things can be, um, can help heal. and I appreciate it. The movie is a little ridiculous. Like, as you're watching it, you'll be like, this is so strange. And the sequences, and when everyone, like, in the back corner of the frame and the way that camera is like up people's noses as they're, as they're having these ecstatic, it is, there is something uncomfortable about it that purposefully, right, that it is supposed to communicate how death. and consuming the nature of this expression was people trying to work themselves, like, out of something and into something else.

Right. I saw more walkouts for this in Venice than any other film. I mean, the Italians were just like absolutely not. Yeah, I think there's also a significant amount of very raw portrayals of childbirth and then infant death in the movie that is very severe. Very severe. And I think we'll alienate people. Well, see also Hamnet, you know. It's true. I mean, it's a running theme in the films of 2025.

But I think also, you know, that's obviously a kind of inspiration point for Anne Lee's thinking about how she sees the world. She's also been subject to physical abuse by her family and by her partner. She has this very tenuous relationship to sex. And that tenuous relationship leads to some of this thinking about celibacy. And then the way in which she's rejected by her partner in life because of that. These are really thorny ideas. and they seem old-fashioned or alien. But the movie doesn't do that kind of like cheap.

This is her trauma. Right. And now she's healed. Yeah, exactly. I mean, we were talking about both the Brutalus in this movie as a response to personal trauma. And like really honestly to rape in both cases. And that these people are trying to find some sort of healing is very different than finding Exactly. And they're trying to work things out. But I wouldn't say that either film has a happy ending. At least my interpretation. I will say though, without spoiling it, I found that the way that Anne Lee is portrayed at the end of the film is really interesting and mature and complicated and kind of had me thinking about how I want my life to end. And sort of like what you want to, how you want to feel about yourself and what you've done and how you see the world when your time has come. God, to your work from Amanda Seiffer.

Yeah. I think one of the greats. Truly an amazing performer. This movie is asking so much of her. I could not think of another movie that was asking so much of a performer because she has to have a clear sense of this spiritual ideology. She has to represent a fearless leader, an ecstatic devotion in this conceit. She has to sing.

She has to dance. She has to lead in singing and dancing. She's not just participating, which she is at the center of the frame through all of these experiences. Plus the prosthetics involved in those childbirth sequences, the amount of violence that this character endures, this crazy set pieces, the epic ship journey that her character takes. Right. It's an epic film. And as you said, like, as fast fold doesn't wink and she does not either. And we have seen that Amanda Seifred can wink when she needs to. Totally. The housemate, and that is what the housemaid is for and she's perfect in it. Yes. But there is a sincerity to what she does

and all of this that's pretty amazing. It's a very unusual film. I could not really think of too many other movies. Which is cool. It is cool. I think that's part of the reason why. And I think that your general audience is going to be made a little uncomfortable by this movie.

Or bored in some ways. And I don't know that it has necessarily the same that uplift in the first half of the brutalist. You know, that's sort of like... Right. There's no... It's showy. Yes, exactly.

That triumphal quality. This movie is different. I would say that it, ends in a similar way to the way that the previous, the Brutalus begins. But the movie does feel like a little bit of splitting the atom between Voxlux and the Brutalist to me. Yeah.

You know, in terms of like, here's how music and performance collides with artistry, pain, spirituality, history. It's a very cool project they have going on. I like what they're up to. I was, I'm really into it. I think this, to me, I've clicked with this film the most of the three. And, you know, to anyone who, is listen to what we're talking about and is like, no thanks.

I was skeptical walking in. It was not like my most anticipated of the Venice Film Festival. And it really did win me over. I think Mona is also an amazing advocate for the movie. So I highly recommend people listen to the conversation with her. It's not even really, it's not the kind of movie that can be spoiled. There's a Wikipedia page that details Anne Lee's life. It is a speculative portrait, as she points out.

She is no longer alive. I just want to let everyone know. Yes. But I do think that, first of all, the music is easy to return to. I've started listening to it on Spotify. Maybe new writing music for me, you know, Daniel Blumberg, who made that ba-bop-bomb moment in The Brutalist also makes the music here. I can't say I'm swayed to explore the Shakers ideology any further.

It's not something that really... We've been talking about this. I'm good on spirituality. I got my own. What could I discover? What could I pursue? The Shakers also made furniture, right? They're making. Yeah, yeah, the furniture is lovely.

I think that's also something Amanda Seifred and Lewis Pullman learned to do is they learned to make this furniture. Yeah, downright Daniel Day Lewis-esque. Yeah, and I like the furniture, but maybe I'll just admire that from afar. 18th century would have been a tough time to live. Yeah, think about how bad it smelled. Do you ever think about that? I think about that all the time. But you wouldn't know any different because there's no deodorant.

That's true, but it's not just like bodily smell, you know, like the sewage, like food weight, all of these sorts. of things. But you wouldn't know any different. I spend a lot of time thinking about how dehydrated I would be and how terrible everything would smell. But you would have God inside you unlike now and would you live in a godless world. I find God all around me every day. Do you? Yeah. In the furniture. Okay. Well, that's an advocacy for the movie. This is more advocacy for Mona Fastball. Let's go to my conversation with her right now. Mona Fastfold here for the first time. Thank you for being here. I'm very excited to talk to you about this movie.

There are some superficial similarities between the Brutalist and the Testament of An Lee. So I was hoping you could walk me through the development, the discovery of Anne Lee's life for you and kind of when this movie really first started. Well, so we wrote it before we shot The Brutelist. But, yes, I didn't really think about the similarities until I was in the edit. While I was editing the Testament of Anli, I was also promoting and putting out the Brutalist. with Brady and just talking about the brutalist every day while, you know, when you were in that really, that space when you're editing and you were just analyzing the work that you've done,

all of a sudden we started seeing all of these similarities and seeing sort of how the pictures both spoke to one another. They're both immigrating to America. They're both trying to do something impossible, perhaps unwanted of a guard. in many ways, philosophically, artistically, both of these characters. But they're very different characters. So it was an interesting kind of, all of a sudden, it was interesting looking at it as a companion piece. But we didn't think about that at all when we started when we were writing it.

We had written The Brutalist and we, I was fascinated by the Shakers. I came across it when I was doing research on the world to come, which takes place in 1856 and I was looking, I was actually looking for some, for him to use in the film. I was looking at something that was, we'd date further back than 1856, something that could have been passed down to them from their mothers or something like that. So I started just looking at, you know, hymns from that, from Mass. That also takes place in Massachusetts and upstate New York. So I was looking at that area and I was reading about, you know, the hymns and, you know,

history of them and I came across this one specific song that I really fell in love with called Pretty Mother's Home that's in the film as well that song by this beautiful actor and singer Lark White and Josephine Foster as well sings on that and and I started reading about it and that led me to the shakers and to mother Anne Lee and I thought it was just a fascinating story a fascinating historical figure she kept surprising me as I was learning more about her It was a lot of detective work that went into learning about her because there's not that much that has been written about her. There's one, add the word, which is a great biography. But that one, that's the only one that was available.

Everything else was more or less out of print. And you had to sort of, yeah, go down and go digging. But as I learned more about her, I was really fascinated. I was surprised by how radical she was, her ideas for, you know, justice, equality. and how sort of what a feminist she was and then there's sort of this like this aspect of the religion that is that they worshiped their ecstatic song and dance Shatza was so cinematic and interesting

it's like a it's a forced musical like it has to be a musical because that's how they live their life it's that they sort of almost live their life like a musical early on so all those aspects I just felt were really just made for an interesting project to dedicate years and years of my life too. I want to hear about those years. I saw you describe it as a speculative retelling of her life, which I think is a really interesting phrase. And whenever there's a biopic, for lack of a better word, there is this line between truth of a person's life and what makes a

kind of coherent narrative film. So how did you think about that, especially since there's maybe not as much material as you would have liked to even just use a source when you were writing the film? Well, there's definitely blanks that has to be filled in. There's definitely things. things that you have to imagine, but it's all, you know, it's based on a lot of research. There is a lot of information, but speculative, yes, because what's written down as truths are, it's not written down by Anne Lee herself, because she was illiterate. It is written down by her witnesses, much like the Bible. So, did it really happen this way or did it happen in other way?

It's their interpretation of these events. And then again, it's ours interpretation of them. So, you know, I just sat down. I did as much research as I could. And I felt like the story and the structure of the story was very much there. And then when we sit down to, I sat down to write it with Brady, we really, for us, it was really, okay, now you write from intuition. Because now this becomes a dialogue between us and this material.

and us and this historical figure, then that's sort of, that's where the film lives for me in that conversation between the filmmaker and the historical figure or the historical events they were portraying. So therefore, you know, it's not a straight biopic.

I'm not trying to say, oh, this is exactly what happened. But this is, it's more, this is my conversation with what happened. I asked Brady a somewhat similar question around the Brutalist, which was that I felt like that film and this film,

the drive and ambition and the sort of like the commitment devotion to the belief and the process of what those two characters are doing it does map kind of neatly onto the life of an independent filmmaker and like do you see a connection like a close personal connection between what you do and your work and what Anne Lee stood for how she did it how she pursued it like is there a match there? Yeah I think that

you know I think that these both of these stories this yes they they do it is for us my personal sort of connection to the story is, of course, you know, tied to what is it that drives you? What is this faith that drives you to try and create impossible, you know, things? It feels impossible to make these movies down to the very end in many ways, even putting them out into the world and, like, finding a great distributor, even when you've made it. Like, you know, it's so hard. It's so challenging. And it cons, you have so many nose and you have so many shut doors over and over and over again. But then, you know,

with this project and with the Brutelist, we have a tight-knit group of people that we're working so closely with. And that just stands, you know, together with us and we, you know, and we'll just do anything it takes to make it happen. So yes, there's definitely parallels in that. I'm sure there's that, you know, that part. That journey of that struggle is something, you know, I guess we keep returning to. But I think also that defiance is appealing to me because there's a part of me that I guess when nobody wants it, I still will not stop making the movie. I won't say, okay, well, I guess no one wants to finance this. My Shaker musical, I don't know why, but I won't keep going. Why do you think that is? Why do you feel like you, when someone says, no, that almost empowers you

more to keep going? Because I believe in the story, so much, so so much. I do. do. If not, I wouldn't be making it. If not, I wouldn't dedicate years of my life to it. And I don't know why I believe in it, but I do. I mean, I just do. You have, it's a bit of, and that's, I guess, the kind of faith aspect. I'm not religious. I wasn't raised in a religious household, but I am interested in faith. And I do think, like, what is, what is that drives you to be so uncomfortable all the time as well? You know, it's hard. It's hard. You know, And you're just, you're pushing yourself to the very limit to make something that you believe in, that the world is also telling you maybe, no thanks, we're good. We're good on this.

And then, of course, you know, like, I mean, the wonderful thing is that I think that if you do make something that's really singular and very precise and specific, then there usually is an appetite for it. So. Because of the specificity of it, I think. At least that's what I seek out, something that's just like one vision, really clear, precise. That is definitely how I felt watching it. And I do feel like I couldn't, I'm fond of comparing movies to other movies. That's something that cinefiles do nonstop all the time. But there's not a lot of strong comparisons that can be made because of the structure,

because of the approach that you take and telling the story, that sort of forced musical that you described, I love that phrase. But one thing I wanted to ask you about is that the sequence of events of her life at times are dark and also absurd. And the idea of a forced musical is kind of absurd on its face. but the tone of the film is very straight. You do not lean into irony. There's no wink in the film whatsoever.

There are some humorous moments, but not much. And holding that tone of seriousness, like in our society now, can sometimes be considered a negative. But you really make it work despite or in part because of all of these choices. So I was wondering if you could just talk about the decision on the tone of the film and how you wanted it to go. It was so important to me to stay right in that space. And it was very hard.

because it's easy to make fun of her. It's easy to debunk the myths of her. That's the easy route. The hard route is to take her seriously and to treat her with respect. It's more difficult, I think. And it felt more radical in a way. And it almost felt more radical for me in a way too.

This is the most traditional story structure that we've ever written for me and Brady. It's like a three-act. It's linear. It's linear and all that. So, of course, there's things in the, but I knew that the filmmaking was going to be radical. And I knew that with the movement and the music and the editorial pattern and I knew that that was going to bring that in. So I kind of wanted that structure to be a bit more, yeah, to be a bit more linear like a cradle to grave story. And also felt like treating her with respect by doing that.

I wanted to have this, to see this is her life. This is not just this little part of her life or this little one idea about her. It's, this is her entire life. And it was grand. And here's a grand gesture to celebrate that. Or to, you're not even celebrating, just to even to look at it. But I also think because I, when I was, when I began to research her and I had moments where I thought, oh, when am I going to feel? But am I going to be like, oh, what a Charlottone?

You know, like that kind of idea because I think that's the relationship that I have to a lot of stories about cult leaders or other religious leaders or even political leaders, like people who are driven by ego or personal gain or who are manipulating and leading from fear. And then through and through reading about Anne Lee, I just discovered that she was always just kind of leading from this like place of love. and it was never about her and it was never about her ego and it was always just about trying to create safe space where people could worship in a different way and where they could worship through creating objects or art, drawings, paintings, music, architecture, like all these things.

So it just felt like this very, it was surprising how sort of pure and full of love and caring their beliefs, were and how radical they were and I just I wanted to I wanted the audience to to make up their own mind as they went through the story I couldn't you know go full couldn't join the shakers but I couldn't go for you know I couldn't become a preacher with her but I certainly wanted to keep this sort of create the space where you could just make up your own mind and maybe change your mind throughout and have different thoughts and feelings about her like I did when I was researching it yeah I was thinking about this revisiting the movie last night was is this movie a celebration or just a portrait? And you

kind of hinted at that and that answer too. Is it a little bit of both, huh? Yeah. Hopefully, it's a, it's, it's, it can be both. I think you can celebrate someone without agreeing with them completely as well. Also, she's a portrait of her time, you know, like, arguing for celibacy and dissolving of marriages at that time, it was her only way to, to gain autonomy. me as a woman. She was the only way to say, okay, there is no husbands and wives because husbands and wives are not equal. It's a wife, you're your husband's property, but brothers and sisters are equal, so that's what we're going to be. And that's how we are going to, and the, what is the female figure of authority, a mother? Everyone respects their mother. I will be a mother, I will be a leader

as a mother. And so using these sort of different ideas to create autonomy and to sort of find a place where she could be a leader, I think, is at that time, I understand. Yeah, it's interesting because she's not messionic, right? She's like a community stirrer, you know? Yeah. There's a difference between the cult leaders that you're talking about, too. I think so, too. And I think it's that lack of ego.

And I think that is also something that's really connected to motherhood in a way, where you're like, I am just here. I'm, like, living for my children. I'm like, I will, like, you know, move mountains to protect and love my children. And that power comes from that like intense overwhelming feeling of love. I'm curious about the conception and the actual kind of building out of the execution of the movie. So I know that the scripts are usually pretty detailed in terms of what you're going to shoot and how you're going to shoot it. But I don't, in terms of choreography and song and this, that movement in the editing style that you described,

Are you writing through all of that? Are you saying like we're going to see in these quick cutting moments, this kind of like euphoric experience of being inside of this religion or this sect? Yeah, yeah, for sure. I mean, for example, beautiful treasures is described, you know, as a series as a movement piece. You're moving through this stance or movement sequence where she's with all the circular spinning movements,

and then you have scenes and moments that intercut with that. with all of these births and losses and the sexuality as well. So that's written out as so. Here's nine years of her life that we see through this one piece of movement and song. Do the songs in choreography exist before you're writing the script? No. I wrote this, Brady and I wrote the script first, and then I started working with Daniel right away and Celia shortly thereafter.

Daniel first because we would give Celia music and demos to work with as well so Daniel Blumberg and I would we started talking the first thing we dove into was the very first song the woman clothed by the sun which was like our first true exploration of what the music and the score and the songs could be be like and that's an original piece that's based on shaker on shaker on shaked shake your text. And that was the first thing we were talking about was like we wanted to we wanted to use bells. That's the only instrument to begin with and then breathwork and percussion as part of the movement. So using all of the sounds that you hear when you're like

the slaps and the hits and even down to like I'm the finger moving across the table like all of those sounds just really being a big part of the music. And it's very important to me. I spoke to Daniel and Steve, our wonderful mixer as well, about this, that there's never going to be a separation between the world that we are in and the music is not going to be like a typical musical where the dietic world dies out and the music overtakes. I want the world to be as present, if not even more, within the music. So we started diving into different kind of shaker hymns and into the shaker music tradition.

And we knew that we wanted to use a lot of their traditional hymns. And then writing something that was original, a few pieces that were original as well. But not until after we really had understood their musical tradition. And then, again, the same as you do with research. You try and understand their tradition. And then you make it, we make it your own. I wanted there to be Daniel's conversation with the shaker tradition. So I wanted there to be a lot of Daniel in there as well.

And the same with Celia as well. It was like I was showing her all of the research. I had very specific images and ideas of things I wanted to do movement-wise. That was based on shaker drawings and paintings and some dance sanitation as well that they had that have been found in their archives. But beyond that, I also wanted to be Celia's I wanted Celia's choreography as well in her language to be brought in and combine that with the research as well. So I saw the film a second time yesterday with my wife

and I said, what would you like to know about the making of this movie? Because she was kind of like, I've not seen a film like this before. And she said, I have to assume that the person who made it has a background in dance. But I actually didn't know if you did. And then you sat down and you said, did you study as a baller? Did you study ballet? Yes, I danced from when I was four years old until I was 18,

then I had a back injury, so I stopped dancing. But I, yes, I danced. But it's like a film that understands dance. But the movement is so, so should be part of how I work as a director. It's really, even though I haven't, I mean, I used to direct music videos when I started out. But for me, the camera movement and the performers movement, the relationship between those two is always choreography. It's always a dance for me. Finding that right rhythm, finding that correct rhythm. Like if you're finding the edit with movement and having

movement always be guiding your edit as well, it's just such a big part of it. So for me, this is just like a continued exploration of that and just very, very exciting and fun to work with with, and Celia, my choreographer, we've, you know, we've known each other for almost 20 years, we have such a long history, so we have a really lovely shorthand, and it was, I would bring, I would have my cinematographer and our camera operator as well would come in in the dance studio and work with us during rehearsals early on, even we were doing early workshops with Amanda and with our 25 dancers. and so they come in so that I can start working not just with adjusting the choreography

but also adjusting the camera movement and really working then with them and saying, I want you guys to be here with your team and moving this way and then work with Celia and say, now can you adjust 200 people to like or pull out 25 to make room for us because this is where I want the movement to be. So it's it's about really about everyone understanding that language together and practicing. I love how they fit together. It's really, it's gorgeous. And you can see the intentionality with the way that the camera's moving around this big world that you've made.

It's really quite impressive. You know, I know you guys have talked about this a lot over the years, but you make these what seem like extraordinary scaled movies at lower budgets. Yep. Independently. Yep. You know, I know people are asking you about the ship. But the ship is one of those things.

I just don't know how you, where did that ship come from? How did you pull this off for a quote unquote smaller film? But even just the period costume and the sense of being out in the world and immigrating to a new country and kind of like transforming the environment that they're in from one segment of the film to another. I don't really understand it. What little I understand about how you finance a film. So like, can you talk a little bit about doing it for this film? Yeah.

Yeah, I mean, so it's out of necessity that we, one, like we, I want, we want to tell these kind of, we want to tell an epic grand story and then we do make independent films and the stories are quite radical. So it, you know, it's just kind of this is what it is. I would, you know, it's hard to do it, obviously. It's challenging. But part of me also, I'm excited by the challenge because it does. It just inspires creative solutions. So one of the things that I did on this film is new to this film is that we brought back a traditional mat painter. So I would shoot, for example, the ship when the ship is docked, I found the ship in Sweden, the only tall ship that was available in the world that we luckily were allowed to shoot at. So that's a real ship. And I shot that ship docked in that wide shot. And then I had this wonderful man, Lito. He hand-painted the surroundings.

And then we shoot that on film and we scan that back in. And then with our VFX company, we married the two images. And then I add a little bit of movement, a tiny bit of VFX, like some birds and some humans and some animals to it. And some more movements to the sails. So this is a combination of old and a new. technique, which I really enjoy. There's a slightly like slightly artificial feel to it, but it's very painterly. I couldn't afford to do massive CG builds like, you know, like you would do with a period piece now if you have all the money in the world. But it's, I, what you've done

is better. I mean, I for me, but I just, for this movie, I just really prefer this look for it, like this feel to it. It feels organic. It's handmade. Everything in the movie is handmade. there's so much craftsmanship. And in the film that is, you know, like down to us finding Shaker blueprints and building in their style. And Amanda and Lewis and everyone learning woodworking from the interpreters at the Hancock Shaker village, like a wood joinery and making pegs. And it's just we all just became so obsessed with the craftsmanship. So even just bringing back Lee, so Lee took would, he would paint, you know, all of our little set extensions. So we would, you know, and I would work with my cinematographer and my production designer all the way from pre-production into end of post-production with my cinematographer joining every conversation with Lee and saying, listen, I think we need to adjust the light slightly here so it matches what we shot or there's a bow to the lens that we need to recreate at the top corner here.

Or, you know, or my production designer would say, oh, no, this window seal right there is a little bit off in the period and we shouldn't, you know, just, I mean, we just, we could go on forever. We just kept going until it was like pencils down. We were just obsessing of these details. And but it was really wonderful because we, you know, I wanted the film to feel like you, like, crawled into a painter. And by bringing back, you know, Lee and his way of working, I really felt like it was evoking the past. But then. adding in our collaboration with the VFX company. You're bringing in a little bit of the future. It's an exciting place to be at, I think. That's so interesting. I was very randomly on the Universal Studios Lot Tour recently with my four-year-old, and the tour is like just a series of rides now, except for one thing there is this tank that has a giant blue wall.

I don't know if you've ever seen it, but they've shot many films in front of this giant blue wall, kind of representing in a similar fashion using Matt style to create different environments. But now it's just like a stop-on-reve-reform. a tour. It's not something that studios use anymore. They don't use that wall. Yeah. Because some of the best movies ever made used this incredible tool that you built that still

stands. So it's very cool that you've done that. That's exciting to do that. And it's exciting to bring back those techniques. But my thought around doing it on a small budget is also that they, you know, filmmakers used to do figure it out somehow before we even had these other extraordinary modern

tools. So it's like there must be a way. Like how do they do it? How do they move, you know, cameras around like that. You know, the boat, we, I couldn't afford a big enough crane to shoot the overhead shots on the boat. So we built an arm and we rigged it off the rain tower. It was crazy, but it worked. And it was beautiful.

And, you know, it's, it's a lot. Of course, it's a lot of, like, if you, you know, the boat, there was only a few angles that I could shoot on it. For the exterior for it to work. and I had to also have the sales low up in order for it to work as well. So it's just like all of these things that really had to come together and you're just, you know, you're up. You know, at until 4 in the morning, trying to figure out how to get a bunch of people from Belgium to come and the only people in the world who can rig these sales, you know, things like that

where you're just like, you know, a terrible heartburn and you want to, you know, just, you're terrified that it's not going to all come together. So I would love to have a little bit more security in my life. but when it comes to these things. But also, somehow you know, you figure out ways to make it work. And yeah, that's... You get called audacious on the flip side of it. So there's a phrase in the film that popped out to me the second time I saw it that appears a couple of times.

And I just wanted to hear you talk about where it came from, which was exteriorized rottenness. And I was like, I've not heard those words together in that way before. And they, you know, they recur in the film. and felt like a very modern condition and not a 17th or 18th century condition. It's a quote from their testament. You know, it's just something that they, and from the Bible, they there again. So it is, it's an old, it's an old term. I just thought it was so wonderful description of like, like, you know, just like opening it all up and just letting it all out.

and it's just such a, yeah, it's wonderful, but I can't take credit for it. It's from their testament. This is very powerful, very resonant. Yeah. I do want to hear a little bit about the collaboration with Amanda. I know you guys have known each other for a long time. You've worked together previously.

This seems like a hard job being Ann Lee. This seems like a very hard, like a challenging performance for a variety of reasons. Like there's a huge emotional swings in terms of what she has to portray. I read a bit about some of the prosthetics that you guys talked about during the birthing sequence. which seem pretty extreme. Obviously, choreography, performance, singing, woodworking. So it's a full plate of work. It sounds like you were pretty direct about what would be expected of her when you guys were talking about doing it. But I'd like to hear you just kind of talk about the collaboration and what was challenging, what was easy about doing it together,

what she was adept at, what she wasn't as adept at maybe, that she had to learn. I mean, she had to learn everything. I mean, she's a great singer. And she's a great mover and she's a great actress. But, you know, it's, this is a difficult accent. So she started immediately. She started a year in advance working on it. She's such a hard worker, Amanda. She's really throws.

She gives everything when she's doing something. She doesn't do something half the way. Like, that's just not who she is. And I knew that about her. And I knew that she was going to give me everything because we had, we had great conversations about, this character very early on about this project and we had a really wonderful experience working together and directing her was easy for me. Sometimes you have to spend a lot of time

trying to find the key into a performer. I like that. I like trying and finding it and all of a sudden you're like, okay, something if it doesn't click right away and it's my job to really try and find what is it. How can I help you best as your first, the first viewer, the first viewer, the first moviegoer watching you perform how can I how can I help you and guide you but with Amanda

it was just very easy immediately we spoke the same language so when we so yeah she had to so I didn't know that she was going to give me this much time

it was very generous but she cared so much she cared as much as me she connected with this role and she wanted to do she knew how hard it was going to be and she was ready to just go full force and start the work. So she started doing accent work a year in advance with Tanner and Marshall, our wonderful accent. Designer, really, because she built this accent because no one knew how they really spoke back then. So this is based on a lot of research that she did.

And then she started working with Celia and myself on the movement. And with Daniel and I, we started singing immediately. So it was just a lot of prep work because she Everything had to come from this place of of just honest truthful movement honest truthful singing It couldn't be performative it couldn't be musical theater in the traditional sense Even though she's amazing at that That's not what this story or this character required

So it had to come from she had to sort of really relearn how like retrain detrain herself from, you know, she sings, she's such a great, she's so, you know, such a great singer and she's so, she's so skilled. So she had to kind of unlearn that and just start trying to find a place where she's just not listening to herself. And so we started going into the studio and singing through imagining giving birth or whispering or screaming or screaming or laughing or just try and just find ways of really just connecting in a different way to her voice. And the same with the movement as well. Celia really her thought was, okay, I'm going to create this choreography.

I'm going to give you this piece of movement. But now it's yours. I don't care about it being perfect. I always would say to Celia, like, I don't want to see dancing. I just want to see movement. And so now you own this movement and it doesn't have to, it just has to be with a lot of intent. The intent needs to be like in your fingertips, in every like needs to be, go all the way out here and all the way down to your toes. But it can be your intent and it can be your story.

And it doesn't have to be all about, oh, I'm doing this perfect, you know, beautiful piece of movement. But, you know, she gave us everything and was willing to do all that work. And then, so then when we came on set, the hard things are, of course, that you're dancing covered in snow and rain and mud. Or in every single day there's like, I have 10 goats and a cow and a baby in a scene, you know. It's just all of those things. It just makes it harder. But I think that both Amanda and I thrive in those environments and kind of maximalists.

She gives herself to the moment. And when you've done all your homework, you can't. Then you can rest in that moment and just let the surroundings affect you. I agree that this is not musical theatery, but would you ever consider making this a stage musical? Definitely. Because it definitely could play. Yeah, yes.

If there's interest in that, we would love to do that. I think the music and the movement is so exciting. And I just, I could look at it. I would love to, I would love, I would love for people to see the movement on a stage because I exclude some like pretty fantastic things. Right. Just because it's not right for the story and it's not right for the character to be, for the camera to be an observer.

Most of the time the camera has to be a believer, it has to be into. It has to be with Anne and her story and her journey. And there's like some glorious like parts of this choreography, like hunger and thirst. That's a beautiful movement piece. And it's, I should just like post it on YouTube or something, the rehearsal videos because I really love the movement piece. But in the end, I just needed that, that sequence needed to be one continuous handheld take. That's just with her. But I still feel the movement so much.

I feel the intent of the movement in that scene. And it's just so delicious. But I would love to, I would love to, for someone to see it on the stage. Even just as a one time only, it could be a very special sort of thing. Maybe we'll do like a special movement night in New York with Celia. Yeah. We're doing a concert in the UK. Of the score.

All the music. Yeah, with Amanda and Daniel. Incredible. Wow. So she'll sing the hymns. She'll sing all of it. Yeah. Wow.

Amazing. Will you continue working in the independent mode? Like this film's got distribution from a major studio. Yes. Disney Searchlight is distributing this movie. How cool is that? How crazy is that? It's very exciting.

Thank you. I am, yes. We always said that Amanda was like a little bit of a, like a little bit of like a fucked up Disney princess in this film. That was Brady's joke as we were making. That's kind of her persona, I think, at large too, you know? It is. It is. And I love that for her. I love that for this character. And then it's, you know, it's with Searchlight, which is so wonderful. But does that, now that you've been kind of escorted into like a slightly more Hollywood experience here in the aftermath of making the movie, does that give you any ideas? Could you guys work in the world of Hollywood in this way in this time? Or do you think you'll stick to? We make our movies the way that we want to make them. We, you know, get financing the best way that we know how. I'm just curious.

Yeah, I will always make the movies the way I want to make them. And if the studio want to make them with me the way that I want to make them, then that makes, then sure. I mean, I don't have any, there's no like a, I have a philosophy about filmmaking, not just about the stories I tell, but a bit about how we build the projects as well. And that is important to me down to even the economy of it. There's so many. This is your hand. Lee is coming out here. Your philosophy of filmmaking.

There is, because there is. you're creating a small community and how that community functions is important to me that everyone is taken care of and that there is not too much of a not a hierarchy that is negative hierarchy that there is that that doesn't exist that of course everyone has roles that they fill and because dangerous things can happen on film sets because you're rigging electricity big lights you're doing stunts all these things everyone needs to do the job job that they're assigned to do, of course. It's like, you know, like, you're on a ship or in the army or something. It has to be precise. But the creative sort of, to create a creative

environment whenever anyone can come to my monitor, we can all talk and we're all part of creating something together. And that sense of unity is incredibly important to me. So I hope that, and I don't know how to fully preserve that, and I don't know how to have all the autonomy that I need, which is, you know, final cuts and all these things that are to preserve that within the Hollywood universe. I don't know. I don't know if that, how, you know, some people do. There's some great filmmakers who've done that for their whole career. And maybe, maybe I get to not have to, you know, work so hard on the, on the financing part in the future. But I do want to preserve them. I do want it to make sense, though, also. There's a sustainability element, too,

that's important to me a little bit. I mean by that. I mean that I want, I feel a great responsibility when I'm making, when I'm telling a story for it also. I feel a responsibility for people who put the money in as well. I want it to make sense, you know, in every way when the film comes out as well. So you tell a really radical story. And I don't, I would love for it to reach as many people as possible. We can't always guarantee that. And maybe something doesn't take time. And I guess I'm, I feel anxious about not making everyone whole and making sure that everyone,

every single person is, you know, that they made sense for them as well. So I think there's like that, all of that autonomy that I get from keeping the budget at a quite reasonable place, feels good to me. That being said, when my favorite movies of all time is Lovers on the Bridge. And one of the most expensive films in, you know, the history of French filmmaking. And it was, did not make his money back. And it was not, it was a, you know, it was a, you know, it was really, but I would, and I would be heartbroken if that film didn't exist. So it's not really, it's not about like, you know, that it, that it's a bad thing. you make a beautiful piece of art.

And then over time, you know, it may be, you should just be, I'm just glad they exist. But I think I, I think also maybe being, being a woman as well, there's like a really, in this really heavily male dominated profession. I feel the need and the want for every aspect of it to work and to make sense. And I don't know, maybe that's something I have to get over. No, no. But I do feel, I feel that need for it. just like I want the whole process.

I want to understand the whole process from beginning to end, from, you know, writing to the film is on, you know, your streamer or whatnot. And that whole process I want to somehow be in slightly somehow in part of it and really and understand it for it to fully like make sense for the project. Yeah, I always say it's an art form, but it is a commercial art form, right? It is a release art form. You're meant to share with as many people as possible, right? You are.

And it's exciting if you can do something that's radical and that pushes boundaries and ideas within that format. I am, you know, I grew up in Norway and I have spent my adult life in America. My films have always been an American-European co-production of some sort. That space between the two is a place I really love. There's elements. I don't want my films to be, my films aren't, are there, I find them to be,

to speak to the Hollywood tradition as much as it speaks to the European. For both, for everything I write and the things I direct. I really love American movies. You know, we're here in the city of David Lynch, Spielberg,

you know, there's, and I love, I love those, I love the grand, you know, American movies as well. This is like a John Ford movie, but with music in it.

I mean, this is a story about a hero conquering America in some ways and in other ways not. Yes. And I wanted to nod to that with the story because I felt her being this, you know, this audacious feminist, you know, religious leader. But then to try and give her a little bit of that Hollywood treatment, it's exciting to me. So if Hollywood wants to come along on some of these things, sure, that would be great. But, you know, if not, then it's, I know how to do it. I know how to build these movies and execute them and make them happen. And, you know, if I can't find a distributor who wants to put it out, then we'll figure that out too.

I think there's, you can always learn about this process and there's lots of good people that you can hire. who will work with you. But now being with a luxurious distributor for this strange lady, Anne Lee, is fabulous. It's wonderful. I'll be watching regardless. Mona, we end every episode of this show by asking filmmakers, what's the last great thing they have seen? I don't know if you've been watching movies on your journeys. Yes, I have been watching movies on my journeys.

the last great thing that I saw, well, I mean, I presented a print of Lovers on the Bridge in Sag Harbor at the cinema out there. Oh, amazing. When we were there. So, I mean, that was so beautiful to see that print. It was stunning. It was so gorgeous. When did you first see it?

Did you see it upon release? No. I mean, I was young. What year did it come out? In mid-90s, right? Yeah. I guess I saw it upon release some, I would imagine. Yeah.

and back in Norway. What is it about that movie that touches you? I think it's the ambition and I think it's the physicality. There's a lot of movement in this well, which is incredible. It's like one of the most incredible physical performance artists and performances that exist. And then Juliet, I don't know. Seeing it now, it was bringing tears to my eyes because it really made me think so much about how many, in New York now that there's a great.

crisis with people who are, you know, on house people and here as well, obviously. And just seeing this, like, beautiful, like, romantic, wonderful love story from their perspective as, like, I'm happy to, I think we should, more people should revisit that film. It's a great recommendation. Right now, yeah. Thanks, Mauna. No, thanks. Thanks. Thanks for having me. Okay, thanks to Mona Fastball.

Thanks to Chris Ryan, CR, third chair in our hearts. Thanks for our producer, Jack Sanders, for his work on. Today's episode, we'll be back next week with a draft. Oh, yeah. It's a Matt Damon and Ben Affleck draft. I'm so excited. The cause for such draft is the film The Rip. I already, I made my long list already.

It's like harder choices have never been made for me personally. We tried this once before. Yeah. With George Clooney and Brad Penn. Complicated episode. Yeah. I guess we'd seen wolves. Wolfs.

Wolfs. Wolfs. Wolves. It's I'm a fix wolves and then wolves. Yeah. For all illustrious moments in our cultural history. We had seen wolves, but we still wanted to do the draft. I was also really pregnant at that point. What happened? You have the baby? I think so, yeah. It worked out. I think this will be good. I'm excited. I think so, too. There's a lot of good stuff to choose from. We'll see you then.