The Big Picture - 7. “The Realities of Time” | Gene and Roger

Episode Date: August 23, 2021

By the late '90s, the unlikely alliance between Gene Siskel and Roger Ebert was stronger than ever. But their hard-won friendship would soon face unexpected challenges that would end their time together sooner than anyone expected Host: Brian Raftery Producers: Amanda Dobbins, Sean Fennessey, Isaac Lee, Noah Malale, Bobby Wagner Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

In early 1996, a strange thing happened on Siskel Niebuhr. Gene and Roger were reviewing Broken Arrow, the over-the-top action movie in which John Travolta burns through two nuclear warheads and about 200 cigarettes. It was the kind of dumb, fun popcorn film Gene tended to enjoy, and it starred one of his favorite actors. So he gave it a moderate thumbs up. Then Roger chimed in.

It's just one special effect after another, and it's boring because the story is not interesting, and the characters are not sharply drawn, and Travolta does not make a convincing villain. It doesn't work. You know, as you say this, I don't think I've ever done this on this show in 20 years, but I'm going to twist my thumb.

I'm going to go just like this. I talked you into it? Well, listen, it was a half-hearted endorsement. It had taken a few decades, but Roger had finally managed to change Gene's mind about a movie. I'm changing my opinion now. I'm amazed. I know you're amazed. Do me one

favor. Look in the camera and say I was wrong about Cop and a Half. It wasn't a very good movie. Burt Reynolds. No, I won't do that. What? No, no, no, I won't do that. I saw things in Cop and a Half that I admired. Yeah, that no one else did. If that back and forth sounds more relaxed

than some of Gene and Roger's earlier debates, it may be because things were going pretty well between them by the mid-'90s. There was still tension there, of course. That would never go away. But Gene and Roger's lives would undergo major changes throughout the decade. Their partnership would become closer than ever before, and it would end sooner than anyone could have imagined.

For The Ringer, I'm Brian Raftery, and this is Gene and Roger sat down for a Q&A with Playboy magazine. The interview was nearly 10,000 words long, and you've really got to read it. Imagine an intense couples therapy session, but with stories about Martin Scorsese and Tom Cruise thrown in. It also gives a good glimpse at how Gene and Roger were getting along. Their relationship status wasn't quite thumbs up or thumbs down. It was more sideways. In the Playboy interview, they go out of their way to compliment each other. But it's also clear that the years of squabbling between the two had done some damage, and that things had taken a turn for the worse. At one point, Gene says, I've felt estranged from Roger the last month or two. We've been drifting apart.

But as the 90s went on, Gene and Roger's sometimes awkward union would become less contentious, thanks to some big events in their off-screen lives. Here's Marlene Iglesin, Jean's wife. The most dramatic change came about after Roger's marriage to Chaz in 1992. And Jean was above all a husband and a father. So family was his joy, his anchor. And when Roger married Chaz, he experienced like the same thing with her and her children and her grandchildren. And it just became a strong bond

between the two of them. I mean, it isn't to say that they weren't competitive, but the edges started to soften. I'm laughing because we had so much fun together. This is Chaz Ebert. And we traveled a lot together because Marlene had younger children at home and she frequently couldn't get away. They actually called me their den mother because I was the one who would, if we were backstage at the Jay Leno show or at the David Letterman show, I was the one who had to give them a once over before they went out on the stage, straighten their collars. When they would come back after the segment was over, they would ask me the first thing, who was the best? Who did it the best? Who did you agree with?

According to producer and director Jim Murphy, who worked on the show in the late 80s and early 90s, that time on the road smoothed over Gene and Roger's relationship. They were doing stuff outside of work that required the two of them to work together. They started to realize, I think, that they were each great critics in their own right and great journalists and well-known and big stars, but they had a thing together that made them much more valuable. It also helped that the show was no longer quite as stressful to produce. When Murphy joined Siskel and Ebert in 1988, tapings were still taking hours to complete, in part because Gene and Roger would get sidelined by

their arguments. But within a few years, Gene and Roger had the taping down to a science. There was no more hanging around in front of cameras for hours on end. Mostly, though, Gene and Roger didn't have as much time for the kind of bickering that used to slow down the show. They had a lot going on in their lives. In the mid-'90s, Gene auctioned off Travolta's suit from Saturday Night Fever, the movie that, for Gene, represented youthful, carefree abandon. Now, he joked, he'd use the jacket to help pay for his kids' college. By the mid-'90s, he and Marlene had three young children,

and they'd become his main focus. Gene was really private, spent a lot of time with his family. Producer Carrie Lovestead. By the mid-90s, he and Marlene had three young children, and they'd become his main focus. Gene was really private, spent a lot of time with his family. Producer Carrie Lovestead. I didn't know much about him when he wasn't in the room, and I think that's how he preferred it, and I think he was the same way with Roger. And when Gene was in the room, it had sort of a team in every camp. And Gene was not at all. He loved the thrill of the deadline, last minute, and he pushed everything as long and as far as he could. So when he walked, he walked like this.

His head was several feet in front of the rest of him because he was always rushing to the next thing. He was always on to something else. For Gene, that next thing could be a quick trip to a nearby off-track betting spot. He loved handicapping the horses. And during basketball season, Gene was always making time for the Bulls. Both Gene and Roger were major Bulls fans,

but it was Gene who always seemed to be spotted courtside at the games, or waiting outside the locker room to interview the players. By the 90s, the Bulls had become a full-on obsession, and everyone who knew him knew not to get between Gene and his team. Did you ever go to a Bulls game with Gene, or have

the Bulls experience with him? Oh, God. So, alright. Now the ugly side. Oh, God. So, all right. Now the ugly side. Uh-oh. This is journalist Dave Price, who met Gene in the 90s when they worked together

at CBS in Chicago. In 1997, Dave was sent to help cover the NBA finals between the Bulls and the Jazz in Salt Lake City. Dave's boss couldn't get him credentials, so he told him to just use Gene's. Apparently, no one bothered to ask Gene about this.

I get on the plane, on walks Gene Siskel with his kids and with Marlene, and he turns to me, and he says, you have my fucking credentials. Why do you have my fucking credentials? So I, in a panicked moment, I said something I thought was funny, you know, to try and lighten it.

There was no lightening. He's like, don't ever take my credentials. And I'm like, but I didn't take the credentials. And I'm like, but, but I'm not being, but, but G and G and I, I didn't, I didn't take the credentials that they gave me the, don't take my credentials ever.

And that's how that trip started. But I learned one valuable lesson. Don't take Gene Siskel's fucking credentials. And if Gene wasn't consumed with the Bulls or with family obligations, he was dealing with one of the countless side gigs he worked during the 90s. He kept up with all his five jobs. Local television, CBS Morning Show, Cisco Niebuhr, The Tribune,

and TV Guide. And honestly, looking back, I don't know how he was able to do this. Roger also had countless jobs outside the show. TV appearances, radio gigs, reviews and columns, and long dispatches from the many festivals he visited every year, like Sundance and Cannes.

Then there were the books he knocked out at a remarkably brisk clip, especially in the 90s when he wrote everything from a mystery novel to a satirical computer handbook. And every year, he'd publish one of his annual movie guides, which were filled with hundreds of reviews and a bunch of new essays. I'd get one of Roger's guides every Christmas, and I could always spot them under the tree because they were gigantic. Roger was constantly on deadline for something. Here's his longtime friend and fellow film critic, Carrie Rickey. Roger was the world's fastest writer. It was very dispiriting. When you're at Cannes and we'd say,

you want to catch a meal or something? I'd say, I think I need two hours. And he'd say, two hours? Come on, you can do this one in 25. I said, 25 minutes? In addition to all his newspaper and book commitments, Roger found another outlet for his movie writing in the 90s, the internet. He'd been online since the early 80s, but in 1990 he became a fixture on CompuServe, one of the first dial-up services. Keep in mind, this is back when no one famous

was online, at least not publicly. At first, Roger was just uploading his old reviews. But he quickly became a regular on CompuServe's message boards. If you knew where to look, you could find Roger's personal email address. And if you sent him a note, he might even write you back. Sometimes Roger even chimed in when people were arguing about the show. He was one of the web's first power users. And as Thea Flohm remembers, he tried to get others hooked too. Roger was the first person to tell me about the internet, for example.

He was one of the first early, early, early investors in Google. Roger believed the internet was going to change film criticism. Anyone could publish a review online and watch people react to it, in real time, something Roger loved. I'm a better critic now, he told Wired in 1996, because I am engaged in an ongoing criticism of my work by people who are not in the least impressed by my reputation. I am just another guy online.

Gene was definitely not another guy online. He could barely set up his own answering machine, much less install AOL on his computer. And it's impossible to imagine him having the patience to sit still and hang out on the internet. He was always in motion, ready to move on to the next thing. Which, of course course drove Roger crazy. Gene's life, Roger complained in 1996, is a running battle with the realities of time. But as a decade went on,

the personal differences between Gene and Roger became less incendiary. Maybe it was middle-age maturity, or a mutual respect, or the simple fact that they didn't have the time to duke it out like they once did. Whatever the reasons, the rivalry that had once fueled Gene and Roger's career now seemed like old news. Even talk show hosts had grown tired of bringing it up. When Gene and Roger sat with David Letterman, he didn't bother to ask whether or not they got along. He just grilled them about movies, or used them in a comedy bit. Well, something has happened. They got into kind of something very strange. I taped it and brought it in here.

Take a look. Siskel and Ebert. Our next film is Lost in Space. This big budget version of the 1960s camp classic. Leonardo DiCaprio is hunky. Leonardo DiCaprio is not what we're talking about right now. We're talking about Lost in Space. It's what I'm talking about, big boy.

He's hunky. Damn it, Gene. Gene and Roger were even approached by CBS about a sitcom called Best Enemies, in which they'd essentially play themselves, a pair of film critics stuck in a love-hate relationship. Though both Gene and Roger wanted to do it, the project never took off. Which makes sense. How could a sitcom do justice to one of the most complex, most confounding,

most long-running relationships ever to play out on national TV? Maybe the problem, Roger wrote, was that no one else could possibly understand how meaningless was the hate, how deep was the love. In May 1998, Gene and Roger returned to The Tonight Show with Jay Leno, which was shooting a week's worth of episodes from Chicago. In their limo on the way to the set, Gene complained of a severe headache. He wasn't up for chatting with Leno, and let Roger do most of the talking that night. Afterward, he went to a Bulls playoff game.

Less than two weeks later, Roger was in France, covering the Cannes Film Festival. He knew Gene had gone to a hospital to undergo some tests, but Roger didn't know much else. He'd just left a screening with Carrie Rickey when Chaz pulled him aside. I'm standing far apart, but I hear Roger say, how's Marlene taking this? So immediately I know it's about Jean and something's not okay with Gene. Afterward, the three of them headed to Roger's next screening. Chaz is clutching one of Roger's hands and I just clutched the other one and I said, this is what I know. I think something must be wrong with Gene. I don't know about it.

And he just said, Gene has perhaps an operable problem. You don't know anything about this, and you don't repeat anything about this. He was professional, and he held it together. But I could tell he was kind of like this teddy bear with all the stuffing pulled out. Word soon got out in the press that Gene had undergone surgery to remove a brain tumor. The details of Gene's illness were kept private. He didn't release a statement to the press, and he didn't address the show's staff. What no one knew, aside from a few family members, was that Gene had terminal brain cancer.

He didn't have long to live. Gene never told Roger about his condition, nor about his diagnosis. In the months that followed, all Roger learned was that Gene was in recovery. Though they'd shared so much of their lives over the last two decades, Gene opted to keep his illness to himself. But in the days after the surgery, all anyone really knew for sure was that Gene wanted to return to the show as soon as possible. One of the summer's biggest movies was on the way, Godzilla, an expensive disaster film from the creators of

Independence Day. And there was no way Gene was going to miss out on reviewing it. Even when he was in the hospital shortly after surgery, we were able to get a rear screener of Godzilla for him to watch because he knew Roger would be coming out with a review. And Gene watched it shortly after surgery just so he could write, get his review in. Godzilla was set to open less than two weeks after Gene's surgery. He wasn't ready to appear on camera. So when it came time to tape his review, the Siskel and Ebert team came up with a low-tech solution. I'm Roger Ebert of the Chicago Sun-Times, and my colleague Gene Siskel had surgery a couple of weeks ago,

and I'm very happy to report he's well on the road to recovery. Gene has seen all of the movies on today's program, and I think we're going to be hearing from him all during the show. Are you there, Gene? Yes, I am, Roger. I'm Gene Siskel of the Chicago Tribune and I hope that our producers have selected a really good photo of me that our audience will be forced to stare at for the next few minutes.

Godzilla turned out to be the perfect film for Gene's comeback. For one thing, it was the kind of overhyped franchise movie he delighted in taking down. But Godzilla also took a swipe at Siskel and Ebert themselves. A few years earlier, they'd both given Independence Day a thumbs down. So the Godzilla creators took revenge by including two bumbling characters, one heavyset, one bald, who were obvious send-ups of Gene and Roger. One of them was even named Mayor Ebert. It was cultural satire at its dopiest,

and Gene and Roger were happy to poke back. Yeah, the only good thing about Mayor Ebert and his sidekick was that at least Godzilla didn't step on us. But Roger, I fully expected that to happen, and I think the audience is waiting for that to happen. Yeah, maybe they should have included that. Again, bring him on stage, at least squish him, right? Exactly. There are missing scenes. Gene dialed into the show for the next few weeks. His voice was slower at times,

but his reflexes were still sharp. He kept up his usual banter with Roger, even over the phone. And he could still get excited about a movie he loved, like The Truman Show,

which he watched twice while recovering from surgery. Well, Roger, I believe that this film may be nothing less than a watershed movie. With Warren Beatty's Bullworth and this film, finally, we are getting back to the way things used to be, Roger, the way things used to be that made us want to be film critics in the first place 30 years ago when we were in college and that is films of ideas by the middle of the summer gene had officially returned to the show and over the next several months he was able to keep up with most of his normal duties he filmed siskel and ebert wrote

his tribune column and appeared on the local chicago news He even did a two-hour radio broadcast to celebrate the Bulls' win in the finals. Here's Carrie Lovestead. I mean, it was really sort of extraordinary how quickly he came back and how dedicated he was to working. And our team motto was good and great and fine. How's Gene? Good, great, fine. How are you doing? Good, great, fine. How's Gene? Good, great, fine. How are you doing? Good, great, fine. He was working

so hard to get back to his sort of normal pace, which was extraordinary for somebody who's perfectly, you know, well. For an Olympian, it would be difficult. It was hard to watch, but he was doing such a great job that I think he had me fooled. Here's Callie Siskel, Jean's younger daughter. I do remember him watching movies at home when he couldn't go to work. And the passion that was very obvious for movies and for his job just remained until the end. You know, it didn't seem to waver at all, which is to say that it also felt like it wasn't just a job, you know, and that it was something he just actively,

very intensely wanted to do with his time and his last time, yeah. When Gene returned to TV, he did so as quietly as possible. There were no big comeback interviews, no first-person Tribune columns detailing his illness. He wanted to enjoy what time he had left, without his family being scrutinized by the press. When a reporter for the New York Daily News called him for a quote, Gene didn't have much to say, except for this. The reason I can be joyful through this whole experience is because of the unusual job I have. I have one of the all-time great jobs on planet Earth.

Gene kept moving forward. He taped the show every week, even though, in some episodes, you could tell he was struggling. Roger really stepped up and carried the bigger load on those tapings when it was clear Gene just wasn't up to it. And the entire team of the show was very compassionate.

And they knew we were handling something extremely privately. And they didn't pry or prod. And they were very, very respectful. It was like he had his family at home and he had a separate family at work that's the way it was that fall gene and roger returned to david letterman's studio it was gene's first public appearance away from the cisco and ebert set and a special uh welcome back to the show to uh gene I don't I don't think we have not seen you since you had your medical operation a few months back yeah well I

thought I would not recuperate here on the set that's we well thank you very much Dave you did a real nice thing you called me at home right for about a half an hour we talked about our mutual love of baseball. You sent me a book, which you didn't. And Thomas Boswell's How Life Imitates the World series, a collection of wonderful essays by the Washington Post. I only wish I could turn into Nurse Drew Barrymore right now. You in a white uniform scare me. Gene stayed on the air for the next few months.

He found a lot of films to love in that last year of reviewing movies. The Thin Red Line, There's Something About Mary, and his number one movie of 1998, Babe, Pig in the City. But in February 1999, Gene announced he was taking a break from the show to continue recuperating from his surgery. I'm in a hurry to get well, he said in a statement, because I don't want Roger to get more screen time than I. We did not know that he was dying.

They told us that, oh, he's just going to take a rest. He's worked so hard since the surgery, and he's going to take a rest, and he's going to come back in the fall. But someone who knew the severity of Gene's condition called Roger and told him how sick Gene was. We were stunned, just absolutely shocked and so sad. After that call, it was, I think we both, you know, probably wept. We just couldn't believe it.

And we had made plans to go see him, I think, that Monday. And I think he passed away that Saturday. Gene Siskel died February 20th, 1999. He was 53 years old. Only a few days before he passed, he was still working, putting together his annual Oscar contest for the Tribune. The news came as a surprise to everyone, viewers, friends, coworkers. And it was especially hard for Roger. That month, Roger appeared on Larry King Live,

where he talked about his final weeks with Gene. He didn't complain and he didn't talk about it. And even on our last show, which we did just three weeks ago, he came to play. He came to be a film critic and to be feisty and to take you on. At one point, something went a little bit wrong and the director said, can you do that again? And Gene said, I'll do it 40 more times if you want me to. He had a wonderful spirit and I think that it was an inspiration to me that for the last eight or nine months, he continued to do the show and to do his print work and his other jobs,

just as if he wasn't sick. So there's this one quote, Roger says, Jean's life is a running battle with the realities of time. And I was wondering if you agree with that observation and what you thought of that. You know, Roger's brilliant. He's really brilliant. And I think his perception on Gene is right on the money. I do think that Gene viewed time as like the ultimate sparring partner. And he always pushed the limits of time. But nevertheless, he had time to be a devoted father and husband, time for an extended family, time for five jobs, travel, time to collect art, and time for friends.

So, yes, time was a battle for him, but in looking back, he got a lot in. At that Winners Academy Awards ceremony, host Whoopi Goldberg gave a shout-out to Gene after the In Memoriam tribute. He hadn't been included in the montage. Movie critics never are. So Whoopi gave him a thumbs-up salute.

Gene, honey, wherever you are, here's to you. Years after Gene's death, Roger wrote about the fact that he and Gene had never talked about his illness. That's how he wanted it, and that was his right, Roger wrote. In a way, we had our talk on that night in Cambridge. We talked about what mattered. For a few weeks in early 1999, Roger tried hosting the show by himself. It didn't work.

Years later, Roger recalled how uncomfortable he felt in the balcony alone. I was constantly addressing phantom comments to the ghosts across the aisle. It was as if without Gene, who was I talking to? Who could I argue with? Who could I debate with? It became very clear that it was a show about two people who were talking about the movies. Roger wanted to keep the show going, and he believed Gene would have wanted the same. But for the first time in almost 25 years, Roger didn't have a sparring partner. A new century was about to begin, and Roger was facing the same question that fans and

colleagues have been asking themselves since Gene's death. What would happen to Siskel and Ebert without Siskel? Next time on Gene and Roger. And then all of a sudden you hear, I see someone waving and you're like, wait, is that Roger Ebert? And he just stood up on his seat and he started going at it with the guy and they just started screaming at each other. You know, I think our families have a really strong bond because we shared something, you know, our fates were intertwined, really. And to me, they were like family and we are family in a way and it's just really beautiful. Pick any two show where two people host together

and try to compete and argue all the time and whatever format they have was based on Siskel and Ebert. He said, let's find someone to replace Gene. It's going to be very difficult Gene and Roger is written and reported by me, Brian Raftery With story editing by Amanda Dobbins The show was executive produced by Sean Fennessy

Our producers are Amanda Dobbins, Noah Malalay, Bobby Wagner, and Isaac Lee Music and sound design by Isaac Lee Copy editing was done by Craig Gaines And fact-checking by Kellen B. Coates Our art director is David Shoemaker Thank you for listening. you