The Big Picture - ‘A Star Is Born’: Instant Analysis | The Big Picture (Ep. 87)

Episode Date: October 8, 2018

Ringer editor-in-chief Sean Fennessey is joined by colleagues Juliet Litman, Amanda Dobbins, Lindsay Zoladz, and Andrew Gruttadaro to discuss their immediate reactions to the ‘A Star Is Born’ phenomenon—weighing in on Bradley Cooper’s emergence as an auteur, what the film is saying about pop music, the press tour, Lady Gaga, and more. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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And now, on to the show. It doesn't totally make sense on its own in the song, but when you're watching in the movie, it's perfect. And I have seen it twice now and cried both times. And I have seen that scene a thousand times in the trailer. I just think it's tremendous. Maybe it's time to let the old ways die. I'm Sean Fennessy, editor-in-chief of The Ringer. And this is The Big Picture, a conversation show about love, romance, music, and A Star is Born.

To talk to me about A Star is Born, I'm joined by the co-hosts of Jam Session and Ringer editors Amanda Dobbins and Juliette Libman. Hi. Hello, Sean. What's up? I'm excited. This is great. Guys, give me your instant reactions to seeing the film. You both saw it last week. Juliette, I'll start with you. I had a great time. I was blown away by Bradley Cooper. I knew Lady Gaga was already great, and she was indeed. And it was like a touch slow. Oh, interesting. Yeah. Quite a take. Amanda, you're a little more medium on Gaga in general.

Yes. But you were anticipating the movie. What did she think? I was overwhelmed. I really loved it. Listen, I have a lot of bluster, but at heart, I'm a really sentimental person. And this is like an intensely manipulative, over-the-top, sentimental, old Hollywood style film. Obviously based on a lot of old Hollywood movies. And I love that. I'm a sucker for that every single time. I like La La Land and I like like this version of Star is Born. Here I am.

Julia, not as taken with the sentimentality. I liked it a lot. I was just really, like, distracted by how good Bradley Cooper was, like, to the extent that I had a hard time focusing on much else. I was just like, how is he doing this? Did he talk with this voice in between takes? Did he go full method? And then there's so many stories about, like, all the ways he basically trained for this. Like, he approached, like, an athlete, basically. And that, also in

hindsight, makes the press tour make a lot more sense to me. And so I just, I've just been thinking so much about Bradley Cooper. And I also just, like, I love Lady Gaga, so I'm, like, happy to have new Lady Gaga music. So that's a plus. I agree about Bradley Cooper's performance. And I'm on record as, like, basically not being into Bradley Cooper. And I thought he was incredible. And the movie is obviously about him, which like we should parse. It's hilarious that he directed himself in this film. And it's a rich text that I'd love to talk about. But I thought he was fantastic in it. It does not make the press tour make more sense for me. It makes the press tour make less sense. OK, what do you mean by that? Yeah? Because he is so charismatic in this film.

Like, it's amazing. And you just want to watch him in every single frame. Like, even when Lady Gaga is singing on stage and he's kind of in the corner of the shot, I'm just looking at Bradley Cooper, which is not normally how I respond to Bradley Cooper. And there's a chemistry between them. There is just a whole presence, for lack of a better word, like a real movie star vibe that he's got in the movie. And then on the press where he's like a robot. I can't reconcile them because there's no they're there in person.

I mean, we've seen this before. And Chris and I talked about this a little bit last week talking about movies that are coming out this fall. For whatever reason, Cooper just has a mode of operation when he's selling a movie and doing press. And we've seen the story before, obviously Taffy Ackner's story in the New York Times Magazine was the most overt version of this. But him keeping himself from the press

in some sort of performative act to artistry and realness, I guess, is sort of like saving something true about himself so that we don't see it, so that he can put it all in the movie. Now, whether it's effective or useful for the movie or not, it's kind of hard to tell. I completely agree with you both, though, that this is through and through Bradley Cooper's movie. I wrote about it last week.

It's a movie star part written by a movie star, shot by a movie star, focused on the movie star in service of him. And I think Gaga is actually quite good. And I was surprised by how subtle she was, even though when she's singing, there's a lot of over the top Gaga-ness. But as an actress, I was expecting her to be Ryan Murphy, American Horror Story. And she's not, you know, she kind of inhabits this somewhat real person stuck living with her dad in, I guess, like Arcadia, Los Angeles. Like it's kind of hard to tell where in LA she lives. she lives, but, man, Cooper just, he steals it.

What do you guys think this means kind of for the celebrity of both of these figures? Since, you know, we catch them at an interesting time in their careers. I think there's a tension between what Lady Gaga wants to be and, like, what she's best at. And I think that she is just such a raw talent who can be, who is like also like moldable in like a surprising way. So many pop stars aren't like that. Like they are one thing and it's hard to get away from that. Like even Whitney Houston who acted and has like this like landmark soundtrack

was like a ballad singer and like belted songs out more than anything else. Like Lady Gaga is more of a Swiss army knife than that. But I think that she has a very specific view of herself that imbued the character of Allie. Yeah. Can I ask you, what does Lady Gaga want to be? Because I don't understand that about Lady Gaga. And I also think that the movie doesn't know what, who she wants to be or who Allie wants to be. And it's like the major flaw in the movie for me. But you as, I am not a Lady Gaga fan. I never have been. I don't really do theater kids.

But you like her. What does she want to be? Like, explain that to me. I think she wants to be like an over-the-top icon who also can, like I think she wants to be almost like female Elton John,

basically. That'd be great. Yeah. I love Elton John. But I think that she, the theatrics are still really important to her, but the theatrics

of like pop stardom, not necessarily the theatrics of like a nuanced performance, basically. So Lindsay Zoladz, I thought, had a really insightful comment about this. And we'll talk to Lindsay and Andrew Rededaro later in the show about some of the weirdness of this movie. I got a Cher, which I thought was smart given that Cher sort of over time morphed from this sort of pop cultural flower child with Sonny Bono into kind of a diva, songstress. And then, you know, particularly in Moonstruck and the work she did in that movie became kind of a thoughtful movie star and considerate, not necessarily subtle, but someone who really belonged on screen. And I never saw Gaga in this way before. And now I kind of only want to see Gaga in this way. I don't know if it would be less effective if she wasn't belting the way that she does in a movie.

And that really makes you, it really wins her over for you. But I don't know. What about Cooper? What do you think this does for him as a famous guy? So this was very clearly his play to become an auteur, a respected director. He wants to, you know, he keeps calling Clint Eastwood Clint

and he wants to be in that level. And I think it really helps him. It was a gamble. I was quite skeptical. The movie is really effective. I think it's going to clean up at the Oscars. I think he'll, I would put money on him wanting for actor and not director right now, just because I think the performance is so astonishing.

But the fact that he did direct it just gives him a level of credibility. He's not just the hangover guy anymore. And then before this movie, you could just say he was like the hangover guy who was also in some like problematic, but interesting interesting maybe David O. Russell movies. And now he has directed a real hit. On the note of his directing, I thought the first montage of him playing on stage was hilarious. And the really blinding lens flare that then gave way to him with the guitar was like someone should have been like, dude, come on. Like, let's not go with that. It's hilarious that he did it, but it was also effective.

And I don't usually fall for that type of propaganda. And especially now with Bradley Cooper. And I was like, wow, I've seen it twice now. Works both time, guys. There's a really- He just really looks good on the screen. There's a really similar shot in Almost Famous. It's the first time William Miller is standing on the side of the stage and he's watching

Russell Hammond play like in Stillwater. And I was like, this is like, it's like we're all Bradley Cooper watching Bradley Cooper play the movie star. And it's like he's living out his dream. And I thought it was funny. I mean, it's really that he decided to make this project for himself. And this is what he saw in himself. And this is what he wanted to put out in the world about himself is I will be thinking about it for a long time. Well, there's a couple. We could draw some conclusions about his personal life. And then I think we can draw some conclusions about his ambition.

Obviously, Bradley Cooper is a sober person. He's clean. And the fact that Jackson Maine is completely riddled by alcoholism and drugs, there's clearly a correlation there. There's something that he wants to tell in the story. If he doesn't have daddy issues, I'd be shocked. I'd be completely shocked because there's so much going on between the Sam Elliott character and man. In the sort of like man-crying Hall of Fame, the scene between Sam Elliott and Bradley Cooper right near the end of the movie when they are in the truck together and Bradley shares his real feelings about his brother,

is like that's canon for guys talking about scenes that destroy them in movies. and they are in the truck together, and Bradley shares his real feelings about his brother. That's canon for guys talking about scenes that destroy them in movies. Not women. I was talking to my wife about it last night, and she was like, yeah, that was fine. Yeah, I'm the same way. Everyone's been responding to it, and I was like, it was okay. I thought the Andrew Dice Clay character

blew Sam Elliott out of the water. I'm the only person who thinks that. I think he was great, too. Yeah, he was great. But also, in this scene, when Bradley Cooper breaks down crying with Gaga in rehab, and he mentions, he was great. But also in this scene when Bradley Cooper breaks down crying with Gaga in rehab and he mentions, he was like, you're a dad. And he's like weeping about his father-in-law also in that moment. You're right. It's a dad text. I mean, you guys got to work that out. Very much a dad text. And then, you know, also I think you're completely right, Amanda,

that he's trying to make himself into an auteur, you know, a big respected Hollywood filmmaker. And he's using old school classical structure to do it. And I think some of this movie is about him for sure. But some of it is just him knowing this is a great way to spotlight myself in the savviest way possible. I'm wondering what kind of future he sees for himself after this. I mean, you know, I think for most people he is the hangover guy. If you look a little bit more closely at his career, as Rob Harvilla did a couple of weeks ago,

you see that he's very aspirational and has always been and has tried to do good work, but inevitably finds himself getting cast as kind of the fratty asshole. Juliet, do you think he can make kind of a transition to a fully respected, significant actor-director? Probably not. I thought it was, like, noteworthy that the Mule trailer played before Star is Born.

This is Clint Eastwood's new movie. Yeah, which looks good. Love a drug Mule story. I think it depends on also, like, how much he, like, is willing to, like, play the game, which it seems like he wants to do as little as possible. But part of the talking point to the press tour was that, like, Clint Eastwood suggested that he do this movie earlier.

And he's like, no, I'm not ready yet. I haven't lived enough life or whatever. And so I think that he is trying to be really deliberate. And I guess it depends on how much of the one for them, one for me game he's willing to play. I'm thinking a lot about his musical performance, which he's really modeled on Eddie Vedder, I suppose. Though that's not necessarily what he sounds like or even what he looks like. Whose songs do you like better? Lady Gaga's songs or Bradley's songs or the duets? Oh, I have a Bradley Cooper times a thousand.

I think the best song in the movie is When the Sun Goes Down and the Band Won't Play, which is called Always Remember Us This Way that she sings. Yes. I think that's the best song in the movie, but I think overall the songs that were written for him are like more artful. I mean, there's a lot of like kind of rude commentary about pop music in this movie. Yes, there is. And the songs that she sings after she gets famous are noticeably worse than the ones

that you see her going through the act of songwriting. So it's really dismissive of her art form, which is weird to me. I don't understand that choice at all. I said this earlier, but it's the big flaw in the movie for me. There's no reason that she has to be a shitty pop star. Because you have Gaga, and the movie really is commenting, as much as it's commenting on Bradley Cooper's text, it's also commenting on Gaga.

And we know that the stuff about the nose and she was told that she couldn't be a pop star because she looked a certain way for a long time. And then she became Lady Gaga, who is an excellent pop star. She's not my cup of tea, but has been really successful and is a lot more interesting

than what they showed in the movie. And in the movie, she's just crappy. And then her like bad SNL performance is what causes Bradley Cooper's character to start drinking again, which I mean, really? Do we need that? I mean, that song does suck.

It does suck, but I just don't. I have a lot of thoughts about this. The thing is, is that no one is ever good on SNL. So I've been trying to figure out if the message there is that every SNL performance is bad.

So it's hard to tell if this song is even good. That song's bad. Sure. No question. And I agree that she is even good. That song's bad. Sure. No question. And I agree that she is absolutely deemed to be a pop star. And also that the movie equates being a pop star with being shallow, selling yourself out, all of this sort of— It's a truly raucous movie in the real sense.

And it's weird that we're all so excited about it in a lot of ways because the music that Jackson Maine makes, for the most part, unless you want to draw a direct correlation between him and like Eric Church, there's nobody who makes that music that is famous right now. There's nobody who makes soulful country rock on a mainstream level that people love. It would be nice if Jason Isbell

became a little more famous because of this. He wrote Maybe It's Time. And it's definitely just a Jason Isbell song that Bradley Cooper is karaoke-ing. And it's wonderful. Yes. Jason Isbell and Lucas Bradley Cooper is karaoke-ing. And it's wonderful. Yes. Jason Isbell and Lucas Nelson, Willie Nelson's son, clearly were the two people helping Bradley Cooper make these songs so good. And they are so good.

And maybe sometimes it's funny. We always talk about how like NBA players, if they were soccer players, like which one would be the best soccer player because they have native skills. I wonder if more movie stars tried to be singers, if we'd get like better rock stars. You know, there's something like, is there like a, some sort of, you know, skill gap going on where people are in the wrong job? Maybe if Bradley Cooper wholly committed to rock and roll, we'd have more rock and roll in the world right now. But there is, there is something kind of unseemly about all of the, this woman's inauthenticity ruined our marriage and drove me to drink again. But that is also true to kind of the text of A Star Is Born. Yes.

You know, that is what is a big part of the previous iterations of this story. I guess I don't know if there was a way around it. Maybe just give Lady Gaga better songs. I think so. Because I think this movie makes, this movie is about Bradley Cooper. And this movie is about that character's decline and falling apart. And you could still make it about a great man not being able to deal with his demons and also his lack of fame and give her good songs and make her a credible pop star. Like the basic arc of Jackson Maine is the same, even if Lady Gaga is better at her job. I think they also just,

they take away dimension from her character so quickly. Like, she also could struggle a little bit more with, like, you know, and there's, like, the motions of her, like, having a hard time, like, oh, this is happening to me, or, like, oh, I don't know how to sing with the backing track. But they abandon everything about, like, her insecurities. Like, that's just not a part of the second half of the movie.

She's never, like, he's the one who comes back to her physical appearance, but she doesn't. And I find that very weird. And she also just so quickly overcomes her inability to sing her own songs.

I mean, I've seen Coyote Ugly. It seems a lot harder than that, you know? And so, I thought that was a real flaw. And I think part of the problem is Gaga as a pop star

is just a confident performer. Like, she has, she doesn't seem to be, like, lack for confidence anymore, which is awesome. And one of the reasons I like watching her perform. But in terms of playing Ally, I thought that was a real flaw. I actually thought that she is, like, her performance is better in the second half when she's playing a pop star. I thought it was hard to believe her as, like, a nervous, young, timid woman. But I think the character is more developed in the second half when she's playing a pop star. I thought it was hard to believe her as like a nervous, young, timid woman. But I think the character is more developed in the first half. The most appealing part of the movie for me by far,

and many people have said this is the first hour. And the reason that I'm so enchanted by the first hour is because it's just about them coming together and them figuring each other out. And there's something kind of inert about the back half of the movie where it decides like, well, their love is true and unbreakable. And so there is ultimately no conflict other than his conflict. Like, she doesn't really have a conflict.

She doesn't really have a problem. Even when she's making music that maybe she doesn't exactly want to be making, she doesn't evince that to us. Even when she has to cancel her tour for him, we never see her anguished over that or frustrated by it. Even when, you know, ultimately what happens to him happens to him,

it's not really, there's something kind of like fait accompli about that. And so the movie kind of stops being hers in any significant way and she becomes a pawn. I do feel like in the first

hour of the movie though, when we're getting to know her and we see her in the drag club and we meet her father and we meet the guys surrounding her father and you see they're all watching the video on YouTube

and figuring out what the view count means, that feels much more like her movie as much as his yes and as soon as it gets away from her and into his struggle I think he's very effective and it's I agree Amanda I think he's absolutely the front runner for best actor right now but I don't do you think it was a miscalculation to just kind of start to remove her slowly from her own story? I think so. And I think the second half does drag, as Juliet said. And it is because, I mean, for me and for anyone who knows the plot of Star is Born, which I've since learned,

a lot of people didn't know the plot of Star is Born before seeing this movie. But if you know it's coming, it's and I think even in the movie, if you don't know what's coming, you can sense what's coming. It does have this inevitability and it's really, really fixated on him. And I think to some extent that's why I'm a little resistant to the Sam Elliott scenes. Not so much the scenes. Sam Elliott is wonderful. I don't want to get yelled at. But all of that backstory and everything, it just, we get it. It's the most expository part of the movie.

Yeah, and you don't totally need it and it kind of feels like he's working out some of his own issues as you alluded to through these character things and it is a sidetracking from the story

of the two of them and it it slows down a bit have any of you guys ever visited a pecan farm? yes of course wow

well my grandparents have pecan trees so yeah is that a farm, though? It's not a farm. Did you notice that in the Mule trailer, Clint Eastwood is— Yeah, also pecans.

Yeah, it's pecans. That's called viral marketing. Good job. Good job on those guys. Guys, what's your lasting takeaway, your favorite scene from this movie? The first thing, when they sing Shallow for the first time and he pulls her on stage. No, on stage no on stage

that's an all time movie scene that is I have seen that movie a thousand times in the trailers and kind of we all made jokes of it

in the trailers and I didn't really think Shallow's 100% worked independently I wanted to talk to you specifically about this because you pointed out

when the song first leaked you were like this kind of just feels like three songs Frankenstein together and it doesn't work and this kind of just feels like three songs Frankenstein together and it doesn't work and the truth is it basically is two songs Frankenstein together

and I thought that was so beautiful in the plot it made that song make so much more sense to me because she's just taking something she'd written before with something she basically

freestyles in a parking lot and makes it into this triumphant extremely catchy and sort of like it is in the full time rotation of like shower humming for me. You know, I'm just like, how did this get into my head again?

There's something incredible about that. But the trailer didn't ruin that scene for you in any way? No, not at all. For me, it was a little bit like when you go to a concert and you're waiting for someone to play the hit song or your favorite song in that moment where it finally happens. And I had this moment of like, oh, my God, it's happening. But there is also something about, this song is written to the rhythm of the movie. Like there is even like a weird extra five seconds in the bridge that is so that Lady Gaga can walk up to the front microphone to do the big, oh, and it doesn't totally make sense on its own in the song, but when you're watching in the movie, it's perfect. And I have seen it twice now and cried both times.

And I have seen that scene a thousand times in the trailer. I just think it's tremendous. I mean, an all-time great scene. Great storytelling. Movies can be truly great. Amanda, Julia, thanks for doing this. Sure. When we come back, we will learn that movies can also be incredibly weird

with Andrew Guadadaro and Lindsay Zolhads. Let's take a quick break. Hey, guys, it's Liz Kelley here to tell you that we have a brand new podcast called Halloween Unmasked premiering Monday, October 1st. Here's a sneak peek. There's trouble in the suburbs. A teenage girl named Lori Strode crosses a quiet street toward an ordinary house to find her friends. But Laurie doesn't know that her friends are dead, and she doesn't know that she's walking right toward the masked killer Michael Myers. The movie is Halloween.

And Halloween just, it was like a, it was a breath of fresh putrid air. He's a pure, unknowable evil. I'm film critic Amy Nicholson, and this is Halloween Unmasked, a podcast series from The Ringer celebrating the remarkable and terrifying rise of America's most revolutionary horror film. Subscribe on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts to Halloween Unmasked. And watch your back. I think the scariest part was that he doesn't die at the end. So when you're 10, it's like, that guy's still out there.

We got to get him. We're back on the big picture, and I'm so excited to be joined by my colleagues, Andrew Gratidaro. Hey. And Lindsay Zolatz. Hi. I know that both of you guys love this movie as much as I do. I want to first get your emotional responses to when you first saw it.

You both saw it last night. Tell me, Lindsay, when you came out of the theater, how did you feel? I was crying. And I went to the ladies' room, which was just every woman who was in the theater was like fixing her eye makeup and still sobbing a little bit at the mirror so it was like a lovely communal experience but it really it kind of leaves you right on the tearjerker note and the ending I thought was was beautiful but also there was no beat to like clean your eyes up a little bit. That's true.

It just like leaves you with the deep sadness and then throws you back out into the cruel world. Yes. Hard credits, big song, and then you have to leave the house. How many times did you cry? I think two. You said you cried four times. I did. Four.

I think I might have had a weird morning when I saw it but the minute that they the minute that they were having their moment in the parking lot I was like oh no I've lost a kind of control of myself that I usually have in movies it's definitely like a movie

that men will cry at which I love that there's a lot of just sadness brotherly repressed like a movie that men will cry at which yes i love that there's a lot of just there's opportunities brother brotherly repressed love really sad dog stuff that we will talk about but um it's it's all the beats of like i almost feel like more men will cry at this movie than women i think that's right great i've not i could never endorse something more than a movie that can fit that description andrew is a fellow man. Yeah, no, I agree with that assessment.

The Sam Elliott driving away after Bradley Cooper tells him that he's the one he idolized was like the one that got me. That's brutal. I'll say Sam Elliott for best supporting actor. I'm like starting the Oscar campaign right now. He's so good. Fully on board. So we should talk about that. So Sam Elliott

obviously plays his brother and also Bradley Cooper has entirely emulated his performance on Sam Elliott's human being. You know, his voice,

his affectations, his look to some extent. And there's something really weird about that because Sam Elliott is a good 24 years older than Bradley Cooper.

Yeah. But somehow by dint of storytelling they kind of make you believe it. Yeah. They explain it. Yeah. I was really happy about that.

He's my half brother and he moved to a pecan farm because he had a midlife crisis. There's a lot of explaining. I noticed in Manola Dargis' review of the movie that she was like Bradley Cooper really seems

to be going out of his way to do exposition on this movie. Did you guys feel like there was too much information at any given time? A few times, but I also welcomed it. And I felt like a lot of the exposition was really odd. The whole thing where he was like, his father was 63 when he gave birth and his mother was 17 and died in childbirth. Those are just throwaway lines, too. I think if anything, I wanted more exposition. Right. That relationship. Should we try to get the prequel going at Ringer Films?

Oh, hell yeah. The Jackson, the main family saga? I also want to know their father-son band and what that looked like. But the young Sam Elliott is just played by Sam Elliott. Just young actors in Sam Elliott. I think he's always been that age.

He does. There are some movies in the 70s pre-mustache Sam Elliott that are really off-putting but also kind of amazing. But he seems like

a different man even though he has that striking voice. So you mentioned that that exposition is kind of amazing, but he doesn't, he seems like a different man, even though he has that striking voice. So you mentioned that, you know, that exposition is kind of odd. I think the weirdness of this movie is one of its great merits. I think it's one of the things that makes me like it so much. Aside from the obvious, there's a lot of heartstring tugging going on. What stuck out to you guys as some of the stranger choices that Bradley Cooper may have made for this movie. Okay, well, he touches Lady Gaga's face repeatedly in this movie. And her nose in particular.

Yeah. I was saying it to you earlier this morning, Sean. She's covered in frosting twice in this movie. There are multiple times where she's covered in frosting. He rubs a donut on her face for an extended amount of time it's just like what

in my notes I see Bradley Cooper has nose fetish there's a lot of sensual touching of the nose and kind of

what the nose signifies about her character too which we can go into so here's my defense of that thing. Yeah.

Let's hear it. I think that Cooper, to his credit, and maybe Eric Roth and the other screenwriters on the film, were trying to make an effort to say, this is what relationships are actually like, where you do something when you have that early flirtatious moment, and then it becomes this ritual in your relationship where you have a nickname

and you always return to it 30 years later. I mean, I know I have that in my relationship where like things that we said to each other when we were young. Right. We still say to each other. However, it's very hard to make that stuff seem reasonable when you've got two huge, massive superstars who are supposed to be kind of perfect all the time. This movie is about a lot of their imperfections, obviously. But I don't know. Were you thrown off by the nose thing or did you like it lindsey i liked it in because also it's

in the context of the character ali saying you know everyone in the music industry early on in the movie she says that everyone she's met in the music industry has told her her nose is too big and that's why she can't be a star and so much of this movie is also meta-textual about Lady Gaga and Bradley Cooper's star personas and so in that moment that's also Lady Gaga saying people told me my nose was too big which also is something that people told Barbra Streisand who played this role before her so it's just so much of this movie i think i was saying it it's both this emotional escapism and like a very well put together just like hollywood crafted thing but then on another level it's so meta that it's disorienting and you're just like, who wrote this line?

What are they trying to say? But yeah, I do. So I do like the nose thing because I think there is, there's both like the silly meme part of it. And then there's just like a lot of commentary around that too. For sure. Which is what I think this movie does at its best.

Yeah, I think image is a huge part of the story that they're trying to tell. I want to talk, if we're trying to tell i want to i want to talk if we're going to talk about faces a little bit about um bradley cooper's face so bradley cooper's face is very red in this movie yeah it is beaten it is like he has been like huffing gin for days and do you think that that's just a lot of makeup do you think he methoded his way into that look how do you think he arrived at that place? It's probably a little bit of both.

Every time he drank, I got the feeling that he was actually drinking. Every time he did anything as Jackson Maine, I got the impression that he fully thought he was Jackson Maine. I think Bradley Cooper is sober now, though, right? He is sober, yeah. Because I kind of don't understand how one's face could get that without actually it's pretty impressive a lot of gin um but i guess maybe he just like weathered his face like stood in heavy weather right he visited a sandstorm yeah yeah it's a weird it's a really

weird choice i don't know what are some other weird choices i mean just the voice in general is he's committing so hard to it and there are points where he's just like, oh, is it at all? And you're like, what?

He's incomprehensible. And you really don't know what he says and no one goes back to it. He's going so hard in a way that I love. Yeah, I wrote that he,

it's as if his tongue has been stung by a bee. You know, it's like you can't get it out of its own way. And so it's interesting in a movie like this to have moments where the star, the lead character, you just can't understand him. You just don't know what he's driving at. I mean, obviously we see that he's very fucked up.

But aside from that, long stretches of him stumbling around rooms and saying things that you don't understand. And in the New York Times magazine profile of him, he talked about how he did sort of physically transform like the way he held his body and his throat to get his voice like this and was like initially in pain, which is incredible, but also such a encapsulation of like Bradley Cooper in this movie and how much work and work he's putting in and how much he wants you to see the work that he's putting in both to directing and co-writing this but also to playing this role that feels you know it's a role he wrote for himself to to embody and there's just a lot of work going on in the voice, in the body language, in the guitar playing. He learned how to play guitar for this movie.

And like, it was pretty good. Yeah, I was going to say, he's kind of, he's a pretty incredible musician in general. It's just so earnest in a really rare way right now. Like, he's going so hard and he wants you to take it fully seriously. And he's not really even considering the possibility that you might find it funny. Yeah, so I mentioned this to you both yesterday. It is probably the least self-aware, self-conscious big Hollywood movie in a long time. And I'm wondering if there was any part of you guys that sort of bucked against that,

or if you were willing to accept it full stop. Long pause. An earnest long pause. I think it's the tone of this movie is so strange and it's even stranger that they pull it off because I think it's so self-serious that it becomes kind of silly, but then it moves past the silliness to become serious and actually moving again yes that's very well put so hard to do it's very easy to do self-seriousness into like so good it's bad i mean that's my favorite genre of movie yes and this is not that but i do i think there are elements of gaga's performance that are self-aware. Even though she, I think part of why she's so good in this movie is she's an incredibly earnest artist too. I think we tend to think about her

with these big personas and an artifice, but underneath it all, I think what's always been driving her is this very earnest theater kid love of putting on a show and music. And there's something kind of old school and throwback about her in the same way that there is about someone like Bradley Cooper but I think there are just parts where she's bringing like I love the parts where she'll kind of something crazy will happen like when she has the frozen peas on her hand and she'll be sort of like along for the ride and then suddenly be like what the hell am i doing and the character is saying that but it's these little uh asides to the audience almost those got really big laughs in the theater um it just her those little muttered asides played really well and i do think there is a level of self-consciousness the way she delivers that yeah i want to see

the shooting script to see how much of this was there versus right it was her just kind of breaking in the moment and saying something that was naturally charming. Yeah, we were talking about that with the socks. Let's talk about the socks. Andrew, let's set up the scene there. So if I remember correctly, Bradley Cooper is with Ali's, sorry, Jackson Maine, let's call him,

what his real name is. Jackson Maine is with Ali's manager. So evil, by the way. Who is an evil man from the UK. Yes, the embodiment of British sleaze. And Jackson notes, he says, oh, you're not wearing socks. No, he's like, you're not something else. There's like a lead-in to about his drinking, and then he totally, you're not something else. There's like a lead into about his drinking.

And then he totally deflects to the man not wearing socks, which then prompts the man to be like, well, I am wearing socks. They're these little things. And then the camera pans to the man's foot. Yeah. And they continue to riff about the socks for at least another minute. And then it moves on. Like, was that in the script? I would also love to see a shooting script because there were parts of this that felt improvised.

But I don't know if Bradley Cooper is the type of director that that, like a lot of the rest of it felt very controlled. Yeah. It's funny, you know, Rob Harvilla wrote about Cooper earlier this week on the site, and he noted that there's, he's really on this thin line between Academy Award and Nicolas Cage. And that scene in particular, I was like, what is this? Like, what are we supposed to learn from this scene? What are we supposed to glean from these characters?

Like, you sense that there is a kind of iciness between Jackson and the manager character, but their interplay, I guess it's like, well, they don't have much to say to each other because they kind of despise each other, but it would be okay for them to just openly despise each other.

There wouldn't be a problem with that. But there's almost like an attempt at subtlety in a lot of moments in this movie that weirdly falls flat because it feels like the opposite of subtle. Does that make sense? Yeah, there's nothing that Jackson Maine can do that reads as subtle on screen because he's got that Sam Elliott voice playing opposite the actual Sam Elliott. Like that's another weird meta thing. I mean, Sam Elliott actually says you stole my voice in the movie. Yeah, I screamed.

It actually happens. Let's talk about another really good performance in this movie, which is a performance by a dog. Oh, boy. There's a very good dog in this movie. Lindsay, you want to talk about the dog? I don't know if I can without crying, actually. So the dog, Charlie, is played by himself,

Charlie Cooper, Bradley Cooper's pup. I think some sort of golden doodle, maybe? Yeah. The breed? No, that's...

He's like a little golden doodle. Just a sweet, sweet boy who, we just learned earlier today, won a special award for this film from PETA. The first ever Compassion in Film Award was given to

Charlie Cooper and Bradley for just being a really good boy on screen. What does that award look like? Is it in the shape of a bone? It's just a large bone. It's a big steak. Yeah, yeah. The dog stuff

that was when my heart strings were really just the scene before, you know, when he's kind of preparing to leave this world. Yes. And gives a very large steak to the dog who has to be encouraged to eat it. Yes. Heartbreaking. And then the shot of the dog, like, where you kind of see his, like, body hanging from the rafters and the dog is like waiting outside but i i can't even talk about it so i have a uh sort of a logistical question about that scene which is very beautiful haunting moment and very essential to the

the ending of the movie but is there a doggy door in this house how'd that dog get outside whoa yeah there's got to be a doggy door okay because that's the only explanation right this is probably not appropriate but I was very emotional during this movie I was very engaged I was really feeling close to it but when that happened I was like how'd that dog get outside that was my first reaction I like the way you're thinking

I'm looking for logic in all my movies if there's not that would be a good goof on IMDB maybe when we do the rewatchables on A Star Is Born 25 years from now, we'll put that in the nitpicks category. No, we're going to do that like six months from now.

Yeah, honestly, it's the only movie I'm going to rewatch. You're exactly right. Any other weirdness you guys want to note? What other notes did you take where you said,

what is going on here? I wrote that he really hates windmills. So, you know, and I think I can expound this to a larger point that so much of this movie is about this sort of outdated man getting angry at modernity and the way things are and and his own obsolescence uh and the it's perfectly encapsulated not only in the musical stuff but in the way that sam Elliott, the older brother,

sells the family ranch and now it's a windmill farm. And that just sets Jackson Maine off. Does Jackson Maine know that windmills have been around for hundreds of years? But they're the really modern looking kind. I hate to say that it's the only thing I think Jackson Maine shares with Donald Trump is the hatred of windmills. Wow. I'll just leave that there but yeah I liked I liked that

does does Jackson Maine have a cell phone whoa I would I would guess no

we never see it if he does he would definitely have a flip phone if he had any phone I had this conversation with someone recently who had seen the movie

and we were trying to find the real world comp for Jackson Maine. So I want you guys to help me figure this out. I'll give you some of my theories and maybe you can give me some of yours.

So we get the sense that he sort of arrived on the music scene maybe late 20th century, early 21st century, became a big star making soulful pop country rock is that right yeah okay so that period of time is what it's the strokes it's the white stripes right it's the killers the black

keys it's nickelback it's creed what are the popular bands in that time the only band that i could think of where i was like oh i i what, who could headline Coachella that is like, this is Kings of Leon. So is Jackson Maine just like Caleb Followell from Kings of Leon or like, because it seems like, and it's to your point about modernity, uh, Lindsay, that he's basically just a guy from 1978 that they put in 2018.

Yeah. 100%. That's why like the Caleb Followell thing. It's 100%. That's why, like, the Caleb Falwell thing, it's like he's just, I guess fame-wise it makes, it tracks, but, like, coolness-wise, it doesn't exactly track. Like, he seems much older than Caleb Falwell. Definitely. Does he seem much cooler?

I think he seems less cool than Caleb Falwell. Like, appeals to a less cool audience than, I guess, Kings of Leon did in, whatever, 2005. Right. I guess the kind of guy who would perform a Roy Orbison tribute at the Grammys. With a British guy who sang so much like Roy Orbison that it was weird. He was good. Another oddity.

I was thinking more contemporary. And I know, like, a great fact about Bradley Cooper's preparation for this role, as I'm sure you guys know, is he talked to Eddie Vedder a lot and got advice. The first bit of advice, I think, was don't do this. That's right. Bro, don't do this. One of the great quotes. Maybe the only great quote of this press tour. Bro, don't do this.

I'm going to throw out there. I don't think Jackson Maine could be in a band. I think he has to be a solo artist. Okay. He would be a terrible person to be in a band with. He can't cooperate with anyone. I was not to like, I was getting a little bit of like Eric Church vibes from him. Although that's maybe too country. But the real kind of outlaw country guy.

I also think a larger part of this movie is like, I don't know that Bradley Cooper has the firmest grasp on the modern music scene. And I think that's fair. That comes through more in the alley character than in Jackson, Maine. But I did not really find this movie to be any sort of, you know, as a music critic, did not find a lot of deep commentary on like the way the industry is right now. Let's use that as an opportunity to pivot to Ali and Ali's pop stardom. Ladies and gentlemen, Ali.

One Ali is the worst name for a pop star that I've ever heard in my life. Let's also think about a world in which this is a movie directed by Clint Eastwood, starring Bradley Cooper and Beyonce. Yeah. That is almost what happened. It didn't happen. I think it's pretty merciful that it didn't. I don't think it would be half as funny or even half as emotionally engaging if it were.

But what did you guys make of sort of the alifying of Lady Gaga? One, it happened really quickly yes in a way that was jarring it happened while i was in the bathroom and also dating the fellas yeah that's a whole other thing but yes um yeah like i think the first hour or so the movie covers like a week at most and then the next hour covers maybe years? Or a year? Time is very fuzzy. And things just start happening. Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom.

I think that's part of why the first hour is such like a perfect piece of movie and then the second hour is a little, you know, it kind of loses you here and there. Yeah. And I guess we've been debating

whether Ally's supposed to be a good pop star? Yeah. What do guess we've been debating whether Ally's supposed to be a good pop star. Yeah. What do we think? No. It's very hard to say. She gives a kind of classic SNL musical performance movie that is clearly bad and clearly kind of misarranged and phony. I loved it. It's meant to reveal that, you know, Jackson is authentic and real and Ally is leaning into the commercialism

of pop music and she's lost her way or whatever. It's kind of like, this is not a poptimist movie by any means, but it's weird because

everybody is kind of bad on SNL. So it's plausible that if she were in, we saw her in the studio more making records more. The one time when we see her at the piano

doing basically a Lady Gaga thing. Like, I i like that song that song is good so it's kind of hard to know how good ally really is yeah it does feel to me though i think the whole ally persona is the weak part of the movie to me and it feels like a wasted opportunity when you have lady Gaga, who's really one of the most visually inventive pop stars of the last decade. And Ali, like it does feel to me like a creation of Bradley Cooper, as is literally everything in the film. I just don't like her fashion is really bad and her hair is weird and she like the first outfit she's wearing with the sequins and the polka dot skirt is like forever 21 sale bin it's very it just like looks cheap and weird too so the idea i don't know i think that he there is an idea that pop stardom is easy in this. And I don't think that's true. And I don't think Ali,

there's no reason for us to believe as a modern audience that Ali would suddenly win the Best New Artist Grammy and which Halsey. Halsey passes the torch. Yeah, so that's the biggest question mark I'm left with. which Halsey passes the torch. Yeah. So I, I, that's the biggest question mark I'm left with. And,

and in playing that part is Gaga repudiating her past a little bit, or is she kind of just sticking with the script that was given to her? Cause I don't, I don't necessarily think that we're meant to think by the end of the movie, she completely abandons that aesthetic. The closing think by the end of the movie she completely abandons that aesthetic the closing moments of the film though

there's a kind of elegance to her final performance and I see she's dyed her hair back which is a little and yeah

I don't know I'm at a loss okay let's end on this whose debut single are you more likely to spend American currency on, Jackson Maine or Ali Maine? Andrew.

I'm going to listen to Jackson Maine more. Lindsay? Don't make me choose. I mean, the Ali songs were not peak Gaga. I think I'm going to choose the Ali's. Well peak Gaga I think I'm gonna choose the like Ali's well

who am I kidding I'm gonna choose Shallow yes the duet that's true that's fair that's the correct answer to this question

okay it's time to let the old ways die Lindsay Zoladz Andrew Rededaro thank you for doing this thank you thank you this. Thank you. Thank you. Thanks so much for listening to this A Star is Born themed episode of The Big Picture. Please check us out later this week where we have another episode with the

first time writer director Ike Barinholtz. You may know him from The Mindy Project. He's got a very funny, very interesting, surprisingly thoughtful satire coming out called The Oath. And if you want more on A Star Is Born or the movie Venom, please go to TheRinger.com where we have been covering those movies exhaustively. Until then, see you next week.