The Big Picture - ‘Anora’ Is Pure Cinema and the Best Picture Race Is Completely Up in the Air

Episode Date: October 21, 2024

Now that ‘Anora’ has hit select theaters, Sean assesses the state of the Best Picture race by running through a long (emphasis on long) list of 26 films that have a chance to be nominated at the Oscars (1:00). Then, Sean and Amanda discuss ‘Anora,’ Sean Baker’s Palme d’Or–winning drama about a whirlwind romance between a sex worker and the son of a Russian oligarch (30:00). Finally, Sean is joined by John Crowley, the director of the new Andrew Garfield and Florence Pugh romance ‘We Live in Time’ (1:15:00). They discuss, among other things, the qualities that attracted Crowley to Garfield and Pugh, how he chooses to work in film vs. theater, his long-running project of sincere romantic dramas, and more. Hosts: Sean Fennessey and Amanda Dobbins Guest: John Crowley Senior Producer: Bobby Wagner Video Producer: Jack Sanders Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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I'm Sean Fennessy, and this is The Big Picture, a conversation show about Anora and the Best Picture race. Today on the show, Amanda and I are discussing the eighth feature film from writer-director Sean Baker, his Palme d'Or-winning sensation, Anora. We talk about the movie in a spoiler-free way for a stretch, and there is a spoiler warning to heed for those of you who do not want to know too much about this movie before you see it. You are going to want to see it. It's a movie we're going to be talking about on this show for the next five months or so. The movie is expanding around the country

over the next couple weeks, and you will get an opportunity. Later in this episode, I have a conversation with John Crowley, the lovely director of the new Florence Pugh-Andrew Garfield romance, We Live in Time. Crowley also directed Brooklyn, one of my favorite films of the 2010s, and has a knack for straightforward but not syrupy sincerity. I really responded to We Live in Time. Seems like audiences did too over the weekend, and I loved hearing from Crowley about how he made it. But first, before we dig into Enora, I'm going to attempt to construct the first Best Picture power rankings of the season. And it's not easy. I've got an A to Z lineup of films

that I'm going to run through. That's right, where I sit, there are at least 26 contenders for Best Picture at the moment. Sure, there are a few frontrunners we can talk about, but there's definitely not an Oppenheimer in sight. I'm not even sure there's a Parasite on the board this year.

I can't think of a time this late in the year when things were so unsettled. We've gotten used to dominant runs with Oppenheimer and everything everywhere all at once these past two years. And even in 2021 and 2020, which were compromised by the pandemic, there were long gestating front runners like Coda and the Power of the Dog and Nomadland. This year is totally different. So walk with me as I share all of these 26 potential contenders, where they sit, and in real time, how I put them in a descending order from 10 to 1. I don't entirely know how I'm going to do this, but just roll with me, please. So I'm doing it in alphabetical order. These are the best picture contenders. All we imagine is light. This is

Payal Kapadia's Indian film that was not selected for the best international feature Oscar. And you'd think that that would doom its Oscar chances, but I know that the film is going to have a campaign not just for that category, but also for best picture. This is a film, this is one of two, four, five, six films on my list of 26 that I haven't seen yet. Now, I'm going to do my best to make smart choices about these films I haven't seen yet. This is fairly common on October 21st that there's a handful of movies that aren't out yet. This movie comes out on November 15th. It would be very unusual for a film that has not been selected by its home nation to represent it in the international

feature race to get nominated. For now, I'm feeling like this is not going to happen, but you never know. Next, alphabetically on the list, Onora. You'll hear a lot more about this movie when we get to it in about 15 minutes on the pod. But until then, I can assure you, this movie is competing for Best Picture. It is competing hard. If there are frontrunners this year, I'm not sure if there are, but if there are, this is one of them. I've got this greened on my board already. So, Enora is rolling for sure. Next, Alphabetically Blitz. Another film I haven't seen, I'm seeing very soon. This is Steve McQueen's World War II drama starring Saoirse Ronan. It's an Apple TV Plus film. It will be opening on November 1st around the country, though not in every movie theater around the country. And then

I believe it hits the service on November 22nd. This film premiered at the London Film Festival. It played the New York Film Festival. It's gotten softer reviews than I expected, is what I would say. There's been a lot of curiosity about this movie because it did not hit the traditional festival circuit, didn't play Cannes, didn't play Venice, didn't play Telluride. Now that it's out in the world, it feels like it has been a modest reception. That doesn't mean it's not going to compete with the Academy because as we know, the Academy and the critics are not the same. After Blitz, it's time to talk about The Brutalist. We mentioned it last week. Rapturous reviews out of the New York Film Festival. After rapturous reviews out of Venice,

A24 just premiered this film's poster. It's a very good poster. By the time you listen to this, there probably will be a trailer. I'm pretty nuts about this movie. I'm seeing it a second time next week. I really, really like it. While also I can acknowledge that this is a critic's favorite. This is a film of great power. I believe the word monumental was cited on that poster as noted in several reviews in several different outlets. It's a big, bold movie about big, bold ideas. I do think it's going to resonate with the Academy.

I'm not sure how strongly. It feels like the kind of movie that gets many, many, many below-the-line nominations. Whether or not it sways people for victory, we'll see. But I think it is among the top tier

of contenders right now. And I've got about five of them that I think are almost certainly going to get into this race. It's the next five that are pretty confusing. So let's say Enora's in, let's say the Brutalists in, Challengers. I thought Challengers would be doing better at this point of the race. I thought that queer, Luca Guadagnino's movie, which I'll talk about in a minute, would be received in a somewhat mixed way, and it has been. And I thought that that would allow Challengers the riotously fun love triangle romance tennis comedy that came out earlier this year that is, I know, among Amanda's favorite movies

of the year, that is among my favorite movies of the year, a chance to go up a level. But it's possible that its genre and its tonality and its relationship to sex and the human body is being held against it. We shall see. I'm not totally writing it off, but right now I'm not sure if it's going to make its way in. So I'm not pushing it forward. Then there's a complete unknown. The Bob Dylan biopic from James Mangold starring Timothee Chalamet. We've now seen a teaser and a trailer. I'm concerned, as listeners of this show know. This is a movie that could mean a great deal to me or could be incredibly frustrating. We shall see. It's not coming out until Christmas. I don't know when we're going to see it. I hope to see it soon. I would have thought three months ago that this film was a lock.

Now I'm not so sure. Because this year is somewhat up in the air, it feels like it has a better chance than usual and it will play pretty straightforwardly for those who love music biopics. We know that this is a movie from the man who made Walk the Line. As recently as five years ago, Bohemian Rhapsody was winning Academy Awards. So anything's possible here. It's not in my top tier of contenders at the moment, though. What is? Three consecutive titles I'll tell you about quickly. One is Conclave. This is Edward Berger's new mystery drama about the selection of a new pope that I saw at a Telluride starring Ralph Fiennes that I thought was absolutely delightful. I'm not sure if this is a great film. It's a very entertaining movie. It's a movie that I think

is going to be very easy to play when you're sitting at home and looking at your screeners as an Academy voter or a Guild voter. It's got a compelling story at the center of it. It's got a lot of actors that you really like watching. Stanley Tucci, Isabella Rossellini, Jonathan Lithgow. Familiar faces in darkened rooms talking about conspiracies. That's just good stuff. People like that. I think people are really going to like this movie. I'm not sure if it's an actual contender for best picture insofar as can it win, but it feels like a movie that will be very easy for people to check off because they're just going to have fun watching it. So Conclave, yes. That brings us to Dune Part 2. Dune Part 2, I think, especially with some new information that I'll get to

momentarily, is the best chance for a strong blockbuster presence at the Academy Awards this year. This is a movie that everyone agrees is a step up from the original. Denis Villeneuve has not been really truly recognized by the Academy yet. I think he still has a strong chance to be recognized for Best Director. Sure, the third film in the Dune trilogy is awaited, and there may be some Lord of the Rings-style withholding in terms of appreciation and support for Part 2. If I had to guess, this certainly feels like it's going to be the Empire Strikes Back of this series, the best film in this series, the film that has the deepest thematic ideas and also the most visual grandeur. So I'm saying Dune part two is a lock to get into

the best picture race this year. Next film, Amelia Perez. I told you about this movie after Telluride. Jacques Audillard, his incredibly audacious, multinational, multi-conceptual musical story of a drug dealer who becomes ensnared in a complex family drama and a criminal drama. This is a movie that has flummoxed some and thrilled others. Stars Carla Sofia Gascon, Selena Gomez, Zoe Saldana. They all give bold performances in a film with a bold script that is based on an opera. Audiard, a French filmmaker, this film is eligible for Best International Feature from

France, even though it's largely set in Mexico, which is somewhat confusing. I think that this movie has such strong performances and such a contemporary idea at the center of it that it will be irresistible for the Academy, even though it is unlike many Academy-friendly movies. So that's five movies now that I've listed, that I've greened here. I've got Enora, I've got The Brutalist, I've got Conclave, I've got Dune Part 2, and I've got Emilia Perez. So just walk with me in real time as I add these movies to the 10. After that film comes Gladiator 2. I won't spoil Gladiator 2 for you, but I did see Gladiator 2. Having seen it, I don't know if it's going to compete,

competing in this race. When we did the big Oscar bet with Amanda a few weeks ago, I was quite sure that this film would be competing and that this would be holding, this would be sort of the Barbie to Dune Part 2's Oppenheimer. You know, that this would be the candy colored,

fun night at the movies that is also a blockbuster that people really like and they have to admire. I think people are going to have a lot of fun with this movie. I'm not quite sure how seriously they're going to take it at this point. I'm leaning towards putting it in the best picture race at the moment, but I don't feel as strongly about it as before I saw it.

That's not a negative review. You'll hear my review when we talk about the movie in about a month or so. It's just about how I think the movie will be understood that I'm talking about specifically. For the time being, I'm going to put it on the back end of the 10. So we will circle back to Gladiator 2 on our list here.

After that is Hard Truths. This is a low-level contender. I think think this is if it's going to resonate anywhere mike lee's new movie maybe his last movie based on how he's been talking about how the industry's been treating him recently starring marianne jean-baptiste in a thrilling performance i think it's low level and probably only on a screenplay and acting uh side that it's going to get recognized here. If at all, we shall see, but I'm not adding it to the race at the moment. Now here's two movies I haven't seen from two old masters. And so you never know what's going to happen with an old master. You know, is this going to be a Killers of the Flower Moon situation or is it going to be a House of

Gucci situation? Will it be clearly acknowledged as a great work from someone who's been making great movies for decades? Or will it be politely ignored because of its relative absurdity? I'm talking about Here, the new movie from Robert Zemeckis, and I'm talking about Juror No. 2, the new movie from Clint Eastwood.

Here is a film that is based on a graphic novel starring Tom Hanks and Robin Wright Penn reuniting with Zemeckis after their work 30 years ago in Forrest Gump. It also features a script from Eric Roth, also the screenwriter of Forrest Gump. Here is a movie that takes place entirely in one corner of the universe

across seemingly thousands of years. This little corner, which represents a moment in time for the dinosaurs, a moment in time for the dinosaurs, a moment in time for the settlers of new lands, a moment of time for a nuclear family in America. I haven't seen this movie. I'm seeing it in one week. I am maybe the only optimistic man in the universe about this movie, but this is a boomer parade. This is a movie that will appeal to people who are Robert Zemeckis' age. His output

in the last 15 years has been incredibly complicated and often not my favorite. Every once in a while, though, like in Flight, he rears back and grabs onto something that he was once able to tap into. So I'm not writing this movie off. I'm not putting it in my 10, but I'm not saying it is not a contender, even though no one seems to think it's a contender. We shall see. We will keep our powder dry on here. Now, Juror No. 2 is a weird one, because Juror No. 2 is 94-year-old Clint Eastwood's theoretical final film. It's a courtroom drama starring Nicholas Holt and Toni Collette, two great actors. And the movie had been operating in the shadows for some time. Clint obviously works very efficiently. This film, I think, was originally planned for

streaming. That's what the reporting is. And now it's getting rolled out in 50 screens for one weekend on November 1st. Paradoxically, it's got an amazing trailer. Have you seen the trailer for Jury No. 2? Pretty great. A moody character piece about a guy who may or may not be on the jury of a crime he may or may not have committed. Incredible elevator pitch. The Academy loves Clint Eastwood. Complicated politics aside, they love Clint Eastwood's work and they've honored him many times over the years. I'm not writing this movie off either. It might just be a standard programmer from a guy who's made a lot of movies like this. Let's not forget, you know, movies like Bloodwork, even though many people have forgotten about them. It's something he just likes an entertaining film from time to time. But at his advanced age, this might be an

opportunity to honor one of those masters. We shall see. So keep in my powder, drawing a jury number two as well. There's Pablo Lorraine's Maria. I think this movie is almost certainly only going to compete with Angelina Jolie in The Best Actress Race, and she gives an exceptional performance in this movie as Maria Callas, the opera singer. This is the third in a trilogy of films about complicated and accomplished women in the 20th century that Lorraine has made. The first two films were about Jacqueline Kennedy Onassis and Princess Diana. I liked this movie. I think it's effective. I think Lorraine has a very particular flavor, and if it doesn't click for you, it doesn't click for you. So I think it may be somewhat divisive for some viewers. We shall see. This is a Netflix film. It's coming in November. Next is Nickel Boys. I didn't have this movie in my big Oscar bet, and now I regret it. The movie was supposed to be released on October 25th. It's now been pushed to December 20th. It's obviously been pushed for award season purposes.

I think that MGM, Amazon know that they have a really great film on their hands. A film that I think will also be divisive, that uses a very unusual style of perspectival storytelling that we don't usually see at the movies. I don't want to give away too much about it. I did rave about it out of Telluride. It seemed like it was received even more warmly in New York. I think if I had to guess,

I think it's getting in right now. So I'm just going to add Nickel Boys to this 10 list. Maybe that's a mistake. We shall see. You can see another film that it's going to be competing with, which makes me a little bit queasy that they're competing, but I do think that's the truth of the matter. Next on my list is Nosferatu. This is Robert Eggers' new film that comes out on Christmas. It's of course a retelling of the vampire tale, which is a part of movie history. There have been multiple Nosferatu movies. I think this is the sixth or seventh Nosferatu story

that's been made for the movies. Eggers is a hard genre filmmaker. He made The Witch, he made The Lighthouse, he made The Northmen. This is the first movie of his that does not begin with the word the. It does look like a handsomely mounted period piece. And so I think that there's a chance for some below the line looks. I mentioned with Chris Ryan on the show last week, Jaron Blaschke, his cinematographer

was recognized in 2019 for his work on The Lighthouse. I'm not ruling Nosferatu out. It is horror. As listeners of the show know, we love horror. The Academy doesn't really love horror. They really have to bend over backwards to acknowledge horror. It's only happened a handful of times. We just did a rewatch of those on Silence of the Lambs. The only time a quote-unquote horror movie won Best Picture. Even then, it's not really a horror movie.

So I'm not betting on Nosferatu, but I haven't seen it, so I'm not going to not bet on it either. Next is The Piano Lesson, which is Malcolm Washington's adaptation of the August Wilson play. Really like this movie out of Telluride as well. Malcolm is Denzel Washington's son, and of course, Denzel is in the Oscar race in Gladiator 2. Very much in the Oscar race, I would say, having seen Gladiator 2 now. Malcolm has done an amazing job of adaptation in this work. I think unlike a lot of the recent august wilson adaptations including his own fathers this movie did not feel as claustrophobic to me it felt more inherently cinematic it felt more conceived beyond just the page and i really liked what he did with it and i really like daniel deadwiler's

performance and i i think it's gonna get in now it feels odd to put Nickel Boys against The Piano Lesson, two young black filmmakers, two audacious adaptations of historical stories, but they are sort of on each other's turf in some ways, and there's no denying that. So we'll see if they cancel each other out, for lack of a better phrase. I'm not so sure. Going down the list of the alphabet queer, I mentioned Luca Guadagnino's new film starring Daniel Craig, which played at the New York Film Festival after debuting at Venice. I think this movie is just a little bit too abstract and esoteric to capture the traditional awards body attention. I do think Daniel Craig will get a lot of high marks for his work, but it just feels a little bit strange and psychedelic and patient in a way

that many of these movies usually aren't. So I don't see queer getting in. Then there's a real pain, which I've circled in orange. We don't talk about orange too much on this show. You know, it's between yellow and red, but I feel like what's at the center of this story, which is about two cousins who go to visit Poland and their grandmother's homeland after her passing and visit concentration camps and reflect on their relationship and how they fit into the arc of history, is a really sensitive and also really funny movie that could only have been made by its director, Jesse Eisenberg, who is in the process of turning himself into a gifted filmmaker. And he's got this remarkable performance from Kieran Culkin right at the center of it. This just feels like the kind of movie that the Academy likes. It is intimate, but it has big ideas. It is far reaching, but also never gets beyond its core characters. It's not strange, I think, to raise the specter of like

an ordinary people, I think, when talking about a movie like this. So I've got a real pain going in. Okay. I think that gives me, I want to say that gives me seven contenders right now. So, hmm, two, four, six, seven, eight contenders right now, nine contenders right now. Oh my goodness. All right, we're getting further down the list. A real pain. That's in. The Room Next Door. This is the new movie from Pedro Almovidar. Now, mixed reviews on this one out of the festivals. It did win the Golden Lion at Venice. It also got some strong reviews out of the New York Film Festival. Some Almodovar fans think this might be a lesser work because there's something lost in translation.

With The Move, this is his first English language feature. It stars Tilda Swinton and Julianne Moore as longtime friends who had been out of touch for a spell and are reacquainted at a critical moment in their lives and what happens between them. Beautiful performances. As with any Almodovar movie, the colors, production design, costuming, tonality, music is ace. This did still feel a little slight to me

relative to the history of his work. It's also an adaptation and not an original. And there's something about that adaptation that doesn't feel like it totally fits with his perspective. So I'm going to say this is out at the moment. I might be wrong about that, but I don't think it's going to make the cut, even though I did think it was going to make the cut back in the big Oscar bet days. Saturday Night, Jason Reitman's film, which Chris Ryan and I talked about a couple of weeks ago on the show, which I thought would be a bigger deal. And it doesn't seem like people care. It has not worked at the box office. It has not set aflame the ascending careers of a bunch of young actors. It seems that

young people don't give a shit about the origins of Saturday Night, and so while they're racing out to go see Terrifier 3, they're not racing out to go see Saturday Night. So I don't think it's going to make it into this race. I thought it was, honestly, after I saw The Telluride. I was definitely higher on it then. I looked at it again. I see people's concerns. I see what they don't like about it. I had a fun time. I enjoyed it, But it is a movie with some flaw. Now, if an older audience in awards bodies start looking at it, is it possible that they turn their head around for it? It's possible. I don't yet know. We mentioned the seat of the sacred fig on the episode about the New York Film Festival last week. Bobby and I talked about what that movie is and how it could compete.

It's definitely a contender in the international race. It's the German entry. I don't think it's going to have enough strength to get into Best Picture, but you never know. Amanda is very fond of saying, don't underestimate the international entries. As of right now, there are not very many on this list that I feel are going to make it, with the exception of Amelia Perez, which technically stars two American actors and doesn't totally feel like an international feature and is housed by Netflix. We don't have something like Anatomy of a Fall this year in the race. It doesn't seem like. So you never know. A Seed of the Sacred Fig or an All We Imagine is Light could be getting into the race. We shall see. I'm not so sure at the moment.

Then there's September 5th, another movie I talked about out of Telluride, which is about how ABC Sports covered the hostage crisis at the 72 Munich Olympics. And what an incredible real-time, real-life moment that was for those who are working as journalists

and TV producers. Rock-solid drama. Really, really good movie that obviously flatters the sensibilities of journalists and people who, rock solid drama. Really, really good movie that obviously flatters the sensibilities of journalists and people who work in the media. Excellent performances from John Magaro and from Peter Sarsgaard. I liked this movie quite a bit.

It is a little bit simple and down the middle, but it's possible that its economy will be rewarded because it is, again, a very easy movie to watch at a time when not all of these contenders are necessarily easy to watch. I think September 5th is going to get in today. Do I think it's in the top five? I don't. I don't think it's in the top five of this race at all. But if I had to guess, I would say it's getting in. So September 5, that leaves us with a few more to talk about. Sing Sing. You know, Amanda and I did an episode about this and we kind of wondered aloud

in August, what's going on with this movie? Why is nobody getting a chance to see it? Why is the rollout working in this way? Is there something wrong with it? Was it mishandled? I don't really know. This is a prison drama about a arts rehabilitation program in which uh incarcerated men are able to perform theater. And by performing that theater, they're able to kind of process some of their pain and work through their time inside prison. And it creates this beautiful panoramic vision of humanity that most years would seem like a shoo-in with the Academy, especially with the performances at the center of it. I don't know why, but I'm having a hard time getting my head

around it getting in. So let me just look at my list here before I do anything about Sing Sing. I've got one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten. I've got ten movies already in. And I don't know if I'm going to cut any of them for Sing Sing. So for now, I'm going to say no. Two more movies to tell you about. One is Wicked Part One. As you've heard me say on the show, I don't get it. I don't get it. The person who does get it is my daughter. My three-year-old daughter has discovered the soundtrack to Wicked and is running her life. Defying Gravity is on in my home every night now, every night. I've got my wife singing Defying Gravity. I've never seen this musical. Candidly, I don't totally understand the concept of the musical. I will see the movie. We will talk about the movie on this podcast,

I promise you. Until then, it's possible it's an Oscar contender. It is a big, high production design musical starring some very well-known names with classical IP, so to speak. A sort of prequel to The Wizard of Oz. But I don't see it. It's a part one. Part ones, that never happens. They never get a look at something like this. So I'm going to say it's out.

And then the last one's The Wild Robot. I had a great event at Vidiot's here in Los Angeles over the weekend with Chris Sanders, the director of the film. You know, he's directed many animated movies over the years, Lilo and Stitch, and How to Train Your Dragon. And I think this is his best movie. It's a really beautiful film about parenting and about training to be great. I think it's a very relatable movie. It's a very beautiful movie. I was able to introduce the movie with my daughter at the live event on Sunday. And honestly, it was one of the proudest and most genuine moments of my entire life. And seeing it a second time kind of got

my wheels turning on this. I'm not ready to put it in as like a wild card contender for this race. But if some of these movies that I'm talking about are not as well received, let's say Gladiator 2 doesn't go over as well as I thought it might go over. Or let's just say Nickel Boys is too audacious. Or let's say Enora doesn't hit the right notes with Academy voters. Watch out for something like The Wild Robot. It's possible. I'm not saying it's definitely going to happen, but it is possible.

So I'm flagging it here for you. That's 26 contenders. I've boiled it down to 10. I'm going to tell you those 10 right now before I rank them. Okay. So I've got The Brutalist. I've got Conclave. I've got Dune Part 2. I've got Enora. I've got Emilia Perez. I've got Nickel Boys. I've got Gladiator 2. I've got The Piano Lesson. I've got A Real Pain. I've got the piano lesson. I've got a real pain. I've got September 5th. Am I way off base or is this really close? I hope this isn't spoiling anything for the conversation that I'm about to have with Amanda, but my gut instinct is that Anora is pretty high on this list. So why don't we work from the bottom down instead? I think number 10 right

now is probably Nickel Boys because of its unusual structure. So I'm going to drop it there. Number nine, I'll say September 5th because it is a modest production, even though it is about a relevant real world event and is staged expertly. After that, I'll say The Piano piano lesson. Netflix is very good at getting

nominations. Struggles a little bit more with wins, but they're very good at getting nominations. Then I will go at number seven, A Real Pain. You know what? I'm going to hold that. I'm going to put A Real Pain at number six because I think this movie is going to work. It debuted at Sundance, and I haven't met a person who doesn't like it. So I'm going to put that at six. I'm going to put Gladiator 2 at seven. I could be wrong here. The Gladiator 2 one's got me, thrown me for a loop. All right, so now I've got my five greens, my five locks. And if these movies end up not making it in the race, hey, it's October 21st. Give me a freaking break. Number five, I believe is Dune Part 2.

People like it. They admire it. It's a lot of fun. It was a long time ago. They're gonna have to work hard to get people back invested in this movie. I'm very invested in this movie. I kind of want to do another episode about this movie. Should we do another episode about Dune Part 2? Maybe we will revisit it early next year

because it will be contending at least for a lot of below the line categories because there are not very many big films that are going to be competing in visual effects and costumes and hair and makeup. And I expect Dune Part 2 to be present in all of those categories. At number four, I'm going to go Conclave.

A movie everybody's going to like, everybody's going to enjoy spending time with. I'm not sure anybody's going to think too deeply about its themes. Number three, I'm going The Brutalist. It's challenging. It's bold Brutalist. It's challenging. It's bold. It's big. It's deep. It makes some really, really complex choices in its second half that are going to rub people the wrong way. I look forward to talking about them. Adam

Naiman has been reaching out to me nonstop. He's just been saying, Sean, when will we talk about The Brutalist? I have so many thoughts. I have so many things I would like to joust with you about. I promise you, Adam, you will be on the show. We will talk about The Brutalist. I have so many thoughts. I have so many things I would like to joust with you about. I promise you, Adam, you will be on the show. We will talk about the Brutalist together. Number two, Emilio Perez. This movie could be a number one. I think I'm going with Enora number one. I think Enora is the movie, and especially now that I see that audiences are seeing it in New York and Los Angeles and starting to see it around the country. And it just, I think it had the second highest per screen average over the weekend since the pandemic era. And it made $105,000 per screen over this first release weekend. People are loving this movie. The word of mouth is strong. Mikey Madison's performance as a sex worker who finds herself

ensnared in this incredible romance with a Russian oligarch's son has just captured something. I hope this movie spreads widely more quickly. I hope they don't sit on it, but I'm not an award season strategist. I'm just a person who wants people to see movies. With that, let's now go to my conversation about Anora with Amanda Dobbins. What's in this McDonald's bag? The McValue Meal. For $5.79 plus tax, you can get your choice of Junior Chicken, McDouble, or Chicken Snack Wrap, plus small fries and a small fountain drink. So pick up a McValue Meal today at participating McDonald's restaurants in Canada. Amanda, we're doing it from the past into the future with you. Thank you for agreeing to pre-tape so that I could talk about this.

Probably one of my favorite movies, if not my favorite movie of the year so far. I was wondering if it will stack up and be that for you. I mean, I think probably given how many movies I'm going to be able to see. But right now, as of recording, yeah, it's up there. So it's Enora and then Longlegs after that. And then what comes after that? And then Challengers. Okay.

And then The Brutalist, which is, you know, I had some extra space in my garage. And so storing some canisters have found a home here in Los Angeles. I'm tending to them every night. It's nice. And then screening personally, you know, it's nice that the October listeners also get some brutalist canister jokes. Very, very generous of you. Nora, I agree. this is uh this is a wonderful movie and i shouldn't say i'm surprised but i'm always a little bit skeptical when a filmmaker that i really like gets anointed by right the cineasts at large you know the sort of like this sean baker i would not describe as like a very um prestigious filmmaker in terms of the kinds of characters he portrays

the subject matter. His movies are pretty edgy. They're often about sex workers. They're often very in your face. They're very comic. They're very explosive in the dynamics of the movies. So when I saw the words like pretty woman and palm door, I was like, what is going, how is this a Sean Baker movie? I mean, this is the indie band going mainstream yeah in a lot of ways both in terms of the reception and the fact that it did like win the palm door um and and the subject matter and even i would say the the budget and the scope of the filmmaking yeah there are like set pieces in this movie i mean not action. They're more comedic set pieces and they're incredible. But it does seem like, you know, Red Rocket and Tangerine and Florida Project were in awards

conversations and like cinephiles and people who know and your best Letterboxd friend and everyone at the movie theater like knows about Sean Baker. And the profile has kind of been like steadily rising. But this is when everyone is like, oh, I know, you know, I saw that film and I liked it. And I understand that kind of like hipster impulse to be like, no, no, no,

this is my guy. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, and I'm not trying to gatekeep Sean Baker's work. Obviously, he's had incredible success. I think Florida Project was when he kind of entered something closer to mainstream.

He cast Willem Dafoe in that movie, easily the most famous actor that he'd worked with to that moment. But he's had a really, really interesting career. And I have been saying that I see Anora as sort of the culmination of all the ideas that he's interested in. It is a bigger movie. When we talked with Adam Naiman on the show, coming out of TIFF, he talked about the idea of like excess and wealth being a core topic of this movie is interesting because it also sort of mirrors the elevation. The gentrification of the Sean Baker milieu,

which is like half true. Yeah, and I think the movie is pretty skeptical of wealth and power and money. It totally is, but it is also, as we said, it is like the settings are slightly different. And even what is shown, even if it's shown in a skeptical or cynical way, it is very different from what's shown in the Florida Project. Totally.

And even its representation of money and power is really gauche, which makes it clear, like, I think where the filmmakers stand on all these things. But let's just say, you know, for anyone who's not familiar with what this movie is, it stars Mikey Madison and Mark Edelstein, Yura Barasov, Karen Kogulian. It's effectively a whirling, dervish, romantic comedy cloaked in an intense New York City thriller. You know, like, is that an accurate description of what's happening in the movie? I mean, I would say that the like the Mad Libs of the description have been like if the Safdies did Pretty Woman. Yeah.

You know, Uncut Gems meets Pretty Woman. And the Pretty Woman thing is here's the basic premise. A stripper meets a young rich guy, the son of a Russian oligarch, and then they spend a week together, you know? And by the way, the negotiating of the terms of the week have a direct call out to Pretty Woman. Like, I would have stayed for 10. I would have paid you 20, you know, which is what Richard Gere and Julia Roberts say to each other. So there's a reason that that wonderful film that is now really old and... Somewhat dated.

Certainly dated, but also like essential to my generation, the understanding of the world, is referenced because it is sort of the same thing. And also it's completely different. We keep getting these movies that I think are interesting collision points for our taste and point of view, where you get like hardcore filmmakers with serious vision and

themes that they return to over and over again. But sometimes their reference points cross over hard either with my taste or your taste. So this one is a really interesting one. If you keep hearing Pretty Woman, I think you're going there is a kind of like epic magnetism star making quality to Mikey Madison's performance as a nora any of you who is back american girl who is a stripper in this club who meets this this rich russian kid but this is still a very grimy kind of down and dirty movie and so it's its emergence is so interesting to me because i think people like us are like selling it as something very commercial and like this is dingy as fuck movie from sean baker like it totally is selling it as something very commercial. And I'm like, this is a dingy as fuck movie from Sean Baker.

It totally is. And it's like, you know, filmed like in strip clubs and with like real strippers and sex workers who are awesome, by the way. You should seek out their interviews, particularly in New York Magazine that they did at Cannes, just like on the beach. They're so great. But in addition to the pretty woman setup, in addition to everything that feels grimy and stressful and, you know, uncut gems or after hours or whatever about it, there is also like true screwball comedy DNA in it. And my favorite scene, and you and I were just sitting next to each other, just like truly laughing out loud. And like, there's just like a 20 minute up the ante, like could almost be out of my cousin Vinny,

like scene three quarters of the way through the movie. And so it is both. Are you talking about the boardwalk? I'm talking about the courtroom scene. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Okay. There are a few.

It's funny that you say that because there are a few of those moments. The movie, I think one of the great things about the movie is that it feels scary and funny at the same time. Yeah. And a part of that is a credit to the kind of like pace and the editing and the rhythm that Baker creates. And also this like heightened level of realistic but absurd performance style. For Red Rocket, Baker talks a lot about Italian comedies as like the framework for that movie. Which was this movie about an ex-porn star who moves back to his hometown

in southern Texas. This movie. Great movie, Simon Rex, hilarious performance. That movie was more overtly a comedy. It was a black comedy,

but it was clearly a comedy. Even though its ideas were about, like, you know, Donald Trump's America. And even though in a lot of ways,

like, it's grimy, even grimier. I don't know. The stakes are smaller, but also, like, it's grimy, even grimier. I don't know. The stakes are smaller, but also, like, the emotions and the situations are skeevier. It's uncomfortable at times, for sure. And in part because there's, like, a younger girl that is involved in a romantic affair with this older man. This movie, it is, it doesn't quite feel, like, as overtly comic, even though it is very funny, you know, and it has that feeling where sometimes you're like, am I supposed to be laughing at this is the feeling that you're having.

Because I think especially by the time you get to the end of this film without quite spoiling it yet, there's a sense of sadness and even tragedy to the film too. So part of what is like the major achievement of it for me is that it's not choosing to be just pretty woman and the girl ends up with the guy. It's choosing not just to be uncut gems where it's like, we're all going to die, you know? And like life is a hopeless pit of despair. It's kind of, it's closer to real life, which is it is this complex stew and sometimes it tastes bitter

and sometimes it tastes sweet. And it's like a real life, which is it is this complex stew and sometimes it tastes bitter and sometimes it tastes sweet. And it's like a real sticking the landing quality to the feeling of blending all these different performance styles and genre styles and emotions into one stew. Yeah, I also think it does just open up like the Sean Baker experience just a little bit. And I, you know, I think that there is a reason

that this is the movie that is being, I mean, we don't know, but so far the most widely celebrated of his films and you and I think it's Oscar chances are like surprisingly good for a movie, you know, with as many lap dances as are presented in the first two minutes and like beautifully done by the way yes um but there is something for all of the specific peculiarity and i think the very close observations about sex work and class and money and this particular enclave of new york and you know, and young people and everything that is so fine tuned to the situation. But it also it has that thing that a lot of movies can't nail down where it just like it feels accessible. Like there's some way that you can grab onto it, even if you've never been to a strip club in Coney Island or Brighton Beach. And I feel like that's just kind of cinema magic that you don't nail down every once in a while.

You know, it's just kind of like, oh, we got it all together and the balance is just right. I agree. There is an alchemical feeling in the movie. It's an interesting movie. This is a long movie. This is the longest movie that Baker has made. His movies are essentially getting longer and longer,

which I find interesting. He's kind of like inching toward his own concept of the American epic. And all of his movies are very much about America, very much about immigrants, very much. I'm not referencing The Brutalist. It's number one contender in the Best Picture race. I'm merely referencing the scope of the story

that Baker is making here. And, you know, the fact that it is a movie about foreign power intersecting with like helpless americans too which i find to be an amusing twist on a lot of what he has explored a lot of times you know his stories are about people who are uh who come to this country or who are like stuck here and feel like helpless and part of what's interesting about the movie is that annie this this stripper sex worker who spends the week thinks she has like sincerely found a way out she's sincerely found her prince charming she's sincerely found and she's a very savvy woman who you know working in a club like that you have to be savvy she is working hard

she's like trying to save money and but she's you know she gets duped like the this movie is about like be careful about getting duped into thinking that everything is going to work out because it might not work out yeah but she is and it's an incredible mikey madison performance because she manages both to convey that sense that she is in control until she's not. And there are a couple of scary sequences where you're just like, oh, this is like really, really not good. But that this is a person who seems clearer eyed than most about what she's getting into. And so even as she's getting duped, it's like, how much is she being duped and how much is she duping herself and how much is you know willing to let

go of that like what do you think it is that's an interesting point i i kind of veer towards the ladder a little bit she knows that this romance is burgeoning between her and this man i don't think she knows i mean she's like 20 years old you know but um that i mean there's an extraordinary scene that sets up their marriage that the proposal if you will if if such as it is yes um which is it's not quite an episode in las vegas well it's in las vegas and it's in the middle of um some other activities. There is a discussion of green cards and also just general being able to avoid going home to Russia, even in the context of the marriage. So her face is incredible and she's thinking through it and you see her like wanting

to like, I guess you don't know whether she's like wanting to believe in the reality. Like this is a love offer or just like, oh, wow. Like I could marry this person and like I hit the jackpot or this seems like a good situation. But she's also like all of it's true. But and you can also see in her face like this can be for real. Like this seems ridiculous. You know, I know I know better than this i'm tough so she is able to communicate it all at once but like i do as as things unravel or or or proceed you know depending

on your perspective i guess um you do see her kind of realizing I I don't know how much fairy tale is going on by the end like she seems clued in pretty fast it's hard to say I mean she's obviously a woman of not much means she's got a roommate which we see very you know vanishingly briefly um and she's trying to basically like get out of the life that she has been consigned to. The movie has this really clever structure where the first 45 minutes is just up, up, up. The mania of falling in love, finally having some access to some money. Doing a lot of cocaine. Sex, drugs.

You know, Mikey Madison is just bearing all in the movie. Multiple times it is a very like forthright movie about sex and strippers. She does a pole dance to rival Jennifer Lopez's in Hustlers. Very impressive. I literally turned to you. I was like, that's really hard. I mean, that is really hard. She's very credible.

I can say that. The second 45 minutes is the jig is up. And we realize that this young oligarch's son maybe doesn't have as much control over his life as he might hope he does. And that there is, in fact, a series of people who work for his family who are meant to keep him in line. And they intersect with Anora. And Anora, who is like a firecracker meant to keep him in line. Mm-hmm. And they intersect with Anora. And Anora, who is like a firecracker.

She's uncontainable. And the sequence when they eventually come to the house where they're living in Brooklyn is amazing. I mean,

it is like a truly scary and funny and, you know, you said my cousin Vinny about the courtroom scene, but this is what I thought you were talking about. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. That kind about the courtroom scene but this is what I thought you were talking about because that like

that kind of like rageful hilarity is what I think the movie does really well yes where like you're really afraid for Anora at certain points

of this sequence but Yura Borisov's character is so strange and so very quietly but immediately falling in love with her right in that first moment

that he encounters her and he's basically playing a kind of a thug, you know, a body man for this attache to the oligarchs. So the movie has this unusual fizz to it. And all three of the guys, the henchmen, if you, you know, for lack of a better term, are like immediately communicating both like a threat and also just we don't quite have this pinned down ourselves you know that it's and there's an incompetence yeah she surprised them

with her intensity right which it does or at least i read as like oh okay so it's not this isn't it reassures you a little bit as an audience member yeah exactly um and even as you're like oh no this is really bad it is also communicating the comedy of also like none of these people are going to do what you expect them to do and then the amazing thing about it and i don't say this to say that the scenes feel long but but like they keep going. That scene just like, and it like keeps escalating. It's really like yes anding, but like a very, very uncomfortable,

but funny scene. And the tension keeps going. It's amazing. I think because you don't know anything about any of these characters who just pop in, you know, halfway through the movie, they could shoot her in the head.

You know, you don't know. We really don't know how intense this is going to be. The one guy who's ostensibly in charge, the godfather who's also the priest. Karen Karagulian, yeah. Yes, and who's a recurring actor in Baker's films. Every Sean Baker movie, yeah. I mean, they set him up, but he's just consistently being interrupted

at various church functions yeah to take phone calls to find out like things going on that's the best it's so funny but that does also like

telegraph to you okay like this is a person who doesn't quite have the luck on everything and also he's not a cold-blooded murderer

right like he's basically a pastor yeah the movie is really really funny but because of the way it's shot i think too it doesn't look like it has been like set designed and it's not like you know lit in the way that a hollywood movie is lit so you you almost are like thinking you're like peering in on somebody getting abducted during some of those sequences right until it

becomes this movie that is effectively like um detective chase sequence, you know, where this quartet of extremely unhappy people are stuck together in a car roaming around trying to find a parking spot. Coney Island, yeah. I mean, great movie about parking in New York, especially in Brooklyn. Very, very funny.

And it's interesting because Mark Edelstein, like the Russian actor who is such a propulsive force in the first half of the movie, basically disappears because he vanishes in the middle of the movie. And so it becomes this much more like Motley Crue, almost like a Three Stooges movie if Marilyn Monroe joined the Three Stooges. It's such a funny combination of actors and personalities that it's a really interestingly successful movie. Let's talk a little bit about the third act without spoiling it. Okay. So I would say that I started to get a little bit concerned

about what the story was becoming. And I think as the more I've thought about it, if that second act is this like the kind of frenzy after the romance, the third act is this really like sad depressurizing reality check on what it really means honestly i think to just be poor in america like i think that that's ultimately what this movie is about is like if you are lacking power it's really hard to shortcut your way out of that power in this american system that we have and the third act is is really a like her watching that chance slip away. And honestly, like, financially,

not, like, emotionally. And I don't mean that to... I never for a second, like, disliked the Annie character or thought she was shallow. Like, I'm just like, you know, it's a modern-day Cinderella. I'm rooting for her to get it. But, like, that means me literally thinking,

because at some point, spoiler alert, she winds up like in a, you know, clerk's office in Las Vegas County or whatever. And they're like, you have to sign the annulment. And I'm just like, no, you don't. Don't do it. You know? It was like a horror movie.

Yeah, totally. But you are also like rooting for her. You're just like, no, no, no, no. Like, hold on. You can do it. You've got them. And but like everything from that absolutely amazing courtroom scene on is watching like her her power, which in this movie is like almost as money. Like, that's what it is.

Kind of slowly, gradually. Right. like almost it's money like that's what it is kind of slowly gradually right and you just realize she doesn't have the resources and she doesn't have like I mean she doesn't have the money but also is like on her own

stacked up against all of these people and there you can't you just the system you can't win and it's builds to

that realization but like very it's funny but also very sad. Well, so let's talk about the ending. Like the proper spoiler alert for the end of the movie. I'm very sorry to Bobby and Jack who have not seen this movie. It's a tough one, but we're going to spoil it guys.

This is your job. So, you know, this is, that's what the money is for. It's getting an aura spoiled for you on this podcast a month before it comes out. Hazards of the job, you know, some guys used to have to wear hard hats and here I am just knowing what's happening in the third

act of Sean Baker films yeah yeah the swinging beams in this case are our takes about the ending of Adora so you're not actually in any sometimes it feels that way spoiler alert

for anybody who doesn't want to know how the film concludes we've shared like some kind of critical shape of the story I mean I think everybody knows that she doesn't get a billion-dollar settlement and run away happy ever after.

Was there ever a time when you were watching where you thought she could... Okay, let me just say this. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The Karagulian character the entire time is like, we're getting this annulled, we're getting this annulled. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They go to the New York court to get it annulled. And then they discover in the courtroom it's like no it's

it was in Vegas and they're like you went to Nevada and then everyone's like screaming and the Mark Adelstein character is so drunk and high at this point that he just like is like a corpse falling over and Annie is still like holding her on in this moment being like i don't it's

it's really okay so when they go to when they go to nevada were you like she's gonna get a million dollars five million dollars like i was sitting there and this is like you know this is the i was and i was invested but this is my 40 years of this is of, of living on this earth and all my like women's magazine training. I was just like, you hold in, in that negotiation and you sit in front of these fucking scary oligarchs who have hit men on their payroll and you just tell them, no, I won't say, you know, and then like, and I like the closer, like the closer the mom figure gets, I was like, oh, no, you can't do it. But I wanted to believe that, you know, I was rooting for her.

I was rooting for her, too. The movie keeps you on her side the whole time. It becomes clear that, in fact, she's going to have to settle for, is it $10,000 ultimately? Yeah. And signing the annulment agreement in Nevada and effectively be left with nothing but the memory of a crazy week with this Russian oligarch's son. And also the sort of protection and temporary companionship of Yura Borisov's character, Igor,

who has been simultaneously physically transporting her but also assuaging her and sort of clearly falling in love with her throughout all of this. And the movie ends in this really interesting way where you have a very quiet night after they've returned from Nevada where Igor is like watching her as she spends her final evening

in this lavish house that has been rented for her now ex-husband. Right. And they have this like... Is it ex-husband. Right. And they have this like... Is it ex-husband if it's an old? You know, I don't know what the nomenclature is. But I will get a divorce attorney on the phone right now. A Nevada divorce attorney?

Okay, thank you. Please call my divorce attorney. Her ex. And they have this fascinating moment where she's watching TV and she's being really rude to him. And he's like very calmly and almost patiently and almost like affectionately but obsessively like doting upon her. But also like undermining her a little bit too while they're talking because he's like, you have no power. And I saw that how that played out.

Right. But like in a way where that he almost he feels for her he does he clearly he is like he is both the muscle and signals very clearly on that he is gonna be the protect like physically protect her even though he's there to to smash heads so the following following day, she's leaving this house and being transported back to her apartment. And the movie is really, after moving at this furious pace for two hours. And I must say, this is an amazingly well-edited movie. As usual, it's edited by Baker, who does all that stuff himself. We get to this moment in the car where kind of like

everything has hit her all at once and she's talking and we see that there is like a kind of chemistry between her and igor there has it's been simmering yeah but maybe this could be actually like a real relationship and they're kind of communicating in a way that isn't like just undermining each other and she's about to get out of the car and go up to her apartment

and she comes back quickly and she embraces him and they have sex right in the car and she breaks down

sort of mid sex and has this kind of like it's somewhere between um a release and a crash. Yes.

And it's a fascinating choice because the movie effectively ends there. And wordless. Right. There's nothing said between them during this sex scene, which is very, very intense and just held on one shot, very intimate moment in the movie.

And I've been chewing on it since I saw it. I've been trying to think about what this is saying to us. Now, obviously, Annie is a character who, like, gets what she wants with her body, with sex. That has been, like, her pathway to financial gain. It led to this relationship. It's something she knows how to do, and she knows how powerful it is.

But also, she seems to be confronted by this like really thundering understanding that like she might

be screwed she might be like stuck yeah and maybe someone like Igor would be good for her

but also is this just like another stop on the highway of endless fruitless life I guess I'm trying to figure out like how did you feel what did you feel that the ending of endless fruitless life. I guess I'm trying to figure out like,

how did you feel? What did you feel that the ending of the movie is trying to tell you? I took it more as maybe not, I mean, like release, like the facade, the tough, the performance of Annie finally like coming down. Cause she is throughout and even when things don't break her way

and she signs the annulment, she is not vulnerable or she is not admitting vulnerability even as she is in like very vulnerable positions. And she is projecting that she is in control and making decisions for herself even when she's not. And that's a huge part of her identity

and certainly like her job and what she does as she interacts with all these people. And, you know, I even, you can sense the chemistry between them and the night before he doesn't, he like, you're right that he's pushing back a little, but she's mean to him. She like throws him like a blanket or something to sleep on the couch. She's, like, still kind of doing the power play. She is, yeah. And so it seems like she has sex with him or initiates sex with him because she initiates it in order to kind of, like, continue that idea of power.

And, you know, like, this is still what i do and this is how i know how to do it and then it like she reaches the limit right so of the ability to to of i don't know i because it's unfair to say that's delusion just the performance yes control yeah exactly um and i think a lot i interpreted a lot of it as like a reaction to everything that happens in the last week like but also maybe her whole life like that's what kind of what I was thinking that it is a little bit of I say crash I mean and there is just also like a you know sometimes like the human body physically expresses what emotionally you don't you like keep bound up and so that it's like a very apt physical expression and like in a

very apt physical situation of just overwhelming and her like not being able to do the the hard you know the hard talking anymore thing anymore yeah it's very effective yeah i had been you know we had a chance to see it after canes, but before these most recent festivals. And I think we both said when we came out, we were like, whoa, I was not expecting that ending, basically. Yeah. Because as you said, the movie is just moving, moving, moving, moving, moving, moving. And then much like the final scene, it's just kind of like, okay, now we can't do that, you know. Right.

We'd like downshift very fast. I had been expecting people to be hit hard by it. Yeah. But also maybe not coming out of the movie and being like, oh my God, I love this movie! Because it is, you know,

like all Sean Baker, I mean, the Florida Project is like devastating in terms of what it's trying to say about it. The Florida Project is like, I can't, I mean... It's painful to watch. I mean, Tangerine, which is like very fun and funny, is also very hard to watch at times.

And this movie is not pulling any punches. Like when we get on podcasts and we're like, oh my God, best picture front runner or whatever about movies like this. Right. That's fucking weird. Now, obviously, Parasite and Moonlight, like these movies are not like conventional

best picture frontrunners and things have changed. But it was interesting when I was in Telluride when everyone was like, Onora is the hottest ticket. I had so much fun. And I'm like,

this is a movie about how being broke in America means you're fucked. I will say, I didn't... The ending really did emotionally... I had almost a similar physical and emotional like

i was up here and then i was like whoop you know like you you could like chart it on one of those voter you know live reaction things but i don't think i took it as we should make one of those the nate cone like i know it's like like, my needle goes like, you know? No, so I was on the ride. And, like, you and I both got up and we're just like, wow. You know, I remember that moment. But I also don't think I took it as, and now she will never recover. And, like, life is ruined. And I think maybe that's a little bit because this does it's like you know a zany moment in this in this person's life and also just because i think

the performance in the character is so memorable that you're like well i'm still rooting you know for you i don't i by the flip side i don't think that i didn't walk out just being like well you know she's in it's america so she'll have 18 million more chances. It's not like, this is like a sunny version of how things work in this country, especially if, or when you have no money, but it, it still feels a little contained the movie. There's like, I guess it's like the fairy tale aspect of it. So I don't know. I, that's probably how I can still be like, wow, Onora, I loved it's like the fairytale aspect of it. So I don't know. That's probably how I can still be like, wow, Onora, I loved it. What a ride, even though the emotion definitely intentionally crashes at the end. Yeah, for sure.

And almost like it feels like the air is slowly coming out of the balloon as you're watching the final 45 minutes of the movie. This is yet another example where Baker is so good at getting a place right. I've not been to the Gulf Coast of Texas, but it feels like when you're watching Red Rocket that he's got a handle on that. You know, the excerpts of Orlando in the Florida Project, it just, you feel like you understand that motel. I feel like that's a real place, you know, when you're sitting in it.

I just mentioned that I just rewatched Takeout and like Chinatown and New York City at that time. And that movie, Sunset Strip in Tangerine. Most movies don't look like the world. And his movies look like the world. Yes. And I don't know if that's a magic trick or if it's a shooting style. You know, Tangerine is celebrated because it's like shot on iPhones. And so everything feels like you're watching somebody uploaded a youtube video to the featuring these two characters

but i can't i mean i've been to brighton beach i've been to coney island like that is that's what it is you know that's what it is there are weird russian diners and and clubs all along the strip there there are places you wander into and you're like i'm not supposed to be in here right now um there are certainly those like mom and you're like, I'm not supposed to be in here right now. There are certainly those like mom and pop ice cream shops, you know, along the boardwalk, which figures prominently in that really funny sequence in this movie.

There are, there are kids like, like Mark Edelstein's character just bumming around, you know, spending thousands of dollars. So he's captured something that feels real with an energy that is almost impossible that I just think is like a huge accomplishment. I think it's really unusual in movies to be able to bring something like this consistently

and not have it be the same place. Like some filmmakers are really good. Lawrence Scorsese is really good in New York. You know what I mean? Sure, he knows its ins and outs. Sean Baker is traveling the country consistently portraying this in different states and different energies and doing a fascinating job. So I think it's amazing.

And then obviously you mentioned it, but this is your old school, we have another movie star kind of thing with Mikey Madison. Yeah. who has a great face and is, I think, so good at that thing that you were describing where she just is performing the control and power that she learned on the job and that she needs to do

to continue to survive. But so then when it cracks, like you really have to be able to deliver on the cracking and it's really impressive. I was really, when I saw that she was cast, I was like like this is smart

I've seen her now in Once Upon a Time in Hollywood I've seen her in Scream and she's memorable in both she very much is and she's doing a similar but different thing

which is in both of those movies she has a couple of moments where she's just like complete chaos you know where she's like flipping out and being lit on fire

in both movies and you're like okay this person is a she's a firecracker she brings energy to your movie but this part is a, she's a firecracker. She brings energy to your movie. But this part is so much more complex than those two movies that she had done prior to this.

And I know she had been on Better Things. Right, right, right. She has, I mean, she also just has like a very memorable, like, face. But I don't think that we knew that it could quite communicate you know it she she can use it and do like lots of big emotions but the small emotions are also like they're behind the eyes and like very still which you don't know until someone pulls it out yeah yeah she was really great um the other thing I wanted to note about this movie is the music yeah so I don't think I realized that the song greatest day which plays a few times in this film, is a Take That song.

Did you know that? No, I only knew that after, once again, my Take That blindness, you know? Yeah. I guess we need that weird robot documentary to be released. The one where Robbie Williams is played by a robot or something? No, he's played by a digitally animated monkey. Okay, sure. And it's not a documentary.

It's a scripted feature from the man. That's right, actually, because when we were researching the Oscar bet, someone had Robbie Williams at like 3,000 to 1 odds. I don't see that happening.

I think he's only voicing the monkey. Okay. So I'm not sure that I see that happening anytime soon. It's a metaphor for how we're all monkeys made to dance when we work in the entertainment industry. Once again,

I just don't know what's going on with that whole segment of pop culture. Just the Brits. No, take that and its offshoots specifically. Well, this song is used amazingly well. It is. It's more of a club remix of this song. But it's funny and ironic because it's obviously not going to... It is going to be the greatest day and then it is not going to be the greatest

day of our lives. Um, but then tattoo all the things she said, which is just certified pop banger and also the most Russian pop song of all time, which had to be in this movie by law. And then a bunch of, for lack of a nicer phrase,

like stripper anthems, you know, like Slater, Iggy Azalea, like white girl stripper songs. Yeah. That, but the, this great interview that I mentioned in Vulture,

at some point they were talking about the specific music cues and the actors in the movie were like, oh, he got that one from you, right? Like they were just like, oh, I love this one. They were, it was like a, they were. It feels authentic. Yes. Yeah, so I guess it was. Like I can't certify who gets credit for what,

but they were very proud of it as well. Yeah. And then just having Blondie on the soundtrack too, which is sort of like a band that you could see walking on Coney Island in the 1970s. A slightly more romantic version of this time. This is a great movie. I loved it. It's wonderful.

Do you think it's going to actually like do the Academy Awards run that we have been proclaiming it has been? We're, we're pre-taping. Yeah. We are taping this after we did our, our Oscar bets are in the world now. So I don't know. How, how are they doing? Are people supportive?

Um, I mean, we've only seen like three tenths of all the movies if not less so I don't know I don't think anybody is making any significant wagers based on our prognosticating

no no I saw that they moved the markets like Bill and Cousin Sal they did oh good and uh the casinos are currently going

bankrupt because of the podcast that's the impact wow the Amanda effect that's wonderful we love to hear it yeah yeah yeah

so you know we're still right now in very early days um for a movie that is about how basically you're set you're like set up to fail in america there's like a very winning quality to it which is like so strange i know and and part of its. And I don't think that the sex and nudity is going to be as much of a problem as I want, you know? So do you, I have been thinking about this. Yeah. And I wanted to know what you thought. Yeah. Is that because culturally we are more comfortable with this kind of very straightforward portrayal of strip club culture

right sex work obviously baker is in part responsible i think for you know creating new levels of acceptance in in this part of the world like a movie like tangerine or a movie like florida project getting celebrated in the way that it does right forces normie journalists to confront these ideas and talk about them out loud or to write about them and to better understand them. And obviously, like, as a culture, are we getting more progressive and more thoughtful about some of these things? Or is it that female nudity is something that everybody is okay with all the time? And that's never been really an issue since like 1971. Yeah, but it's, I guess it's like a slightly different style of female nudity. It feels more realistic, I guess.

More realistic, but also. Mikey Madison is making it clap in this movie. You know what I mean? It's not, she's definitely doing the strip club thing. Like it's not like a, it's not like some abstract expressionistic portrait of this culture. Like, it's just, she's just a stripper. Right. I think that we're probably, as a culture, more comfortable with that sort of intentional,

yeah, she's naked and it's her job. You know, both as an actor, but also as the stripper, the sex worker, like within the movie. And it's kind of like, well, I do think at least as far as like the Academy voters go, people have gotten a little bit more used to that. And also, you know, like that culture has just become more prevalent like in our pop culture we haven't seen queer yet but i was thinking that there might be an opportunity for a kind of triangulation between queer this film and challengers right where there's sort of like you know queer is a film that features a lot of gay sex scenes right with a movie star uh anora is a film that features a lot of straight sex scenes with an ascended movie star and then challengers is this like is probably the most sex focused

movie of the three movies right but the least sex yeah well yeah one attempted sex scene that doesn't quite imply yeah yeah yeah yeah so and you know we talked about um oh my god what was the netflix film last year not the netflix erotic thriller that had some like um fair play fair play thank you oh right that had some like somewhat aggressive portraits of like a certain kind of sex and we're on that got us what was the other period sex last year? Was it Salt Burn? Because it was like two. Oh, sure. Yeah.

And Salt Burn, obviously. But both of those were played for like, ooh. Right. Scandal as opposed to. Isn't that dangerous to show that on screen? Whereas it feels like in Enora and in Challengers, it's more about power and less about shock value. Last year was also Poor Things, which was nudity and sex, but wrapped up in very beautiful costume, prestige costume dramas.

Fancy production design. Yeah, and also portrayed as liberation, as opposed to... And farce and genre In a way that these movies are talking about or not. Right. That are... I mean, still a weird movie,

and I don't know if even 10 years ago people would have been like, oh, yeah, poor things. Give it 45 Oscars. I agree. But there still is, like a... There's less seeminess in poor things than there is in this but i don't know i think

i think most people can grow up i'm sure some people will clutch their pearls but you think mikey madison will win i mean we both picked her yeah it's such a good story you know and the oscars love an ingenue it's the thing they do and category. And I don't think that there is a, like, grand dame, respectfully, with a performance. You haven't seen Maria.

Well, I know, but I don't think that that's gonna... Yeah, it's interesting. I don't... Respectfully. Because, like, if you look at those

other contenders, I don't know if we mentioned this when we were doing the big Oscar bit, but it's like, Tilda's won. Julianne Moore has won. Nicole Kidman has won.

Angelina Jolie has won. Yes. Amy Adams hasn't won, but I don't think she's getting nominated. Saoirse Ronan hasn't won, but once again, it's not her year. Not the best movie that she's going to be in that category for. Yeah. We'll see with Blitz supporting. Maybe that solves that problem anyway.

It's an interesting one. There's a world where this catches the wave and goes screenplay, actress, director, best picture, editing. Like,

I could see it. There's also a world in which it's January and we're like, remember when we thought Enora was the front runner? I mean, of course.

And it's like a very good movie that made $11 million. And then like, June 2 is just, you know. Or The Brutalist. Oh my gosh. as the front runner I mean of course and it's like a very good movie that made 11 million dollars and then like and then like Dune 2 is just you know or The Brutalist oh my god or Saturday Night

who knows you know you never know that's true important question for you if a Russian oligarch fell in love with you and offered to whisk you away

from all of this yeah you put this in the doc for a life of Call of Duty and morning sex would you do it how old am I when I'm making the decision?

I think Annie's like 23, so you're 23. So I'm 23. Yeah. And I know what I know at 23 or I know what Annie knows at 23? Yes. Yeah, probably. Why not? Okay.

I would too. Yeah. It seems fun. You know? I mean, the Call of Duty is kind of a bummer. But those scenes are so funny. I was reminded of just how crazy it is to be like drinking vodka at 2 o'clock in the morning at a club. I was like, it's been a long time since I did this.

A really long time. I was reminded of just like how just absolutely lame it is to watch a dude play a video game. You know? Fortunately, I'm innocent of all charges. It's just such loser behavior. You know, you know, I know you all do it, but like having to sit there,

there's nothing lamer. I can't think of a better way to end this conversation than on that note. Amanda, thank you. Very happy to be joined by John Crowley. John, thanks for being on the show today. You know, you've spent the last quarter century of your career toggling between the theater and films. And I'm curious at this stage, what compels you to make a movie? Is there a formula?

Is there something specific that you're looking for when you say, okay, it's time to go behind the camera? Well, it's a sort of visceral response to a piece of writing is the short answer rather than a sort of abstract decision about I'm going to try this genre or that genre. And in this case, it's oftentimes one scene as well. And in this case, it was the, no spoiler alert, the birth scene that gave me this sort of tonal

kind of Rubik's cube for the whole film, for how to handle it. And, you know, it's not just enough to love a scene, you've also got to feel a flutter of fear about about the thought of making the film and i was quite resistant at first to the idea that um a lot of big emotions in the script and i've done a lot of that so but when i saw that the kind of swirl between the the humor and the emotionality of the film was as playful as it was, I thought it could be a really fun thing to make. And there were two great roles, obviously, for actors. So I was in at that point.

Can you tell me a little bit about that fear? Why does that stoke your interest in a project? Usually it means you are leaning just past where you're comfortable. So anything I've done that's been successful, you're just off your sort of central gravity, as it were. Too much, you're probably going to mess it up. You're probably out of your depth. You know, I think it wasid bower used to say you always want to be in the water with your toes just touching

the base of the water with your nose just above the water to be able to breathe but where it's still intense and focused and um you're very alive to what you're doing if you stay in the shallows it it um you're probably going to repeat yourself and if you go out too far well you know lots of bad things happen there so so it's that sort of zone it's it's trying to do something which is going to extend what you've done before basically and you you know very well that, I'm sure, that if you do something that works in the eyes of the world, you'll then get sent every single version of that story again to remake. And so after Brooklyn came out, I was sent endless versions of sad immigrant stories. And it was literally the last thing in the world I would have wanted to do because, well, I'd done it. And the point isn't to just retread territory. The point is to try and extend what you do while holding on to hopefully what is good about what you do.

Was there something different about We Live in Time from The Goldfinch that you were also trying to move away from you know as you think about moving because you know you've you've across all your films you've sort of like hopscotched very subtly in terms of genre and the kind of story that you've been interested in um i was keen to not do another literary adaptation if i'm honest you know um which i've done a lot of between brooklyn goldfinch and then immediately after goldfinch i came back here to the uk and did an adaptation of a book called life after life by kate atkinson for bbc so i've done a lot of adaptations and i was keen to um make a film that had been conceived as a film and this was the the first best script that had come my way which was that nick wrote it. I knew from the theatre. I directed a play by him about 10 years ago. And we had developed a couple of other things. So I was very taken

with the shuffled time structure of it. One of the directors that I revereere who made films vastly different to this film, I hasten to add, but Nicholas Roig was a great man for a non-linear time structure. So it felt to me like a playful, romantic version of the kind of work that he was often doing. Yeah, I'm curious to talk to you more about that. So, there have been a great number of movies over the years that sort of slice and dice chronology. I couldn't think of very

many that had this kind of heartful, sad, romantic style. I'm sure there are a couple that I'm not thinking of, but what were the sort of frameworks that you thought about when you were going through Nick's script? Well, what you've hit on is one of the things that felt fresh about it.

Not necessarily original or breaking new ground, as you say. It's a very familiar way of creating the architecture for how to tell a story. However, in the context of a story which is about love and death, as it were, which is about illness and how little time you get to spend together, a film which was playing with the form of captured time and running three different time frames against themselves felt to me like a very interesting connection between form and content, without being pretentious about it. frames wasn't one which was about confronting an audience with something the gesture behind it was

quite inclusive and playful and invited them to sort of engage with not just the emotion of the piece which is obvious which is there but that engage with the idea of watching two people trying to figure out what the most meaningful way to spend their limited time together is once it has been set in the stand on the stone, once a line has been drawn and they're told you have X amount of time together. It's not just a story about physical decline. It doesn't necessarily dramatize that. And you don't see any of that the the familiar scenes of final moments and all of that it steps aside of that because in a way it's looking at the question of how a relationship handles the meaning of that and how they reach slightly different inclusions

on the best way to spend one's time i like how the movie doesn't try to trick you in any way. A lot of times when you are shifting time around in a story, this is something, it's not straightforward, but it is really sincere. But when you first

read the script, did everything that Nick had outlined work in a way that could be cinematic? Did you have to reshuffle anything or reimagine

some of the timeline? It's very reshuffled in the edit. And it's a kind of classic case of, you know, the film you write, the film you shoot, and the film you edit. And hopefully they're on sort of speaking terms to each other, as it were. It very much, it read beautifully as a sort of conceit, as it were. You know, you could see what what the cinematic ambition of it was and it absolutely did not play in that way um for lots of different reasons so we had to break it all apart in the edit room and re-find the kind of emotional logic

for how these three time frames would run against each other and one part of that was sort of because they're not three consistent timeframes that you've got one day running against sort of six months running against five years of role. So, um, which, which is, is not dissimilar to the task that Dunkirk pulls off very,

very similar film, but you know, which is, it's a difficult, difficult thing when you're dealing with different time periods, which is kind of got a different valence to each one. We had to figure out what that meant. And I had made a choice early on in, in,

in pre-production that I wasn't going to shoot each time frame in a visually vastly distinct fashion. It wasn't going to be like, I don't know, like, like Soderbergh's traffic or something, which is going to tint it in a visually vastly distinct fashion it wasn't going to be like i don't know like like silverberg's traffic or something which is going to tint it in a different way so you always knew where you were and part of that was the that i felt that no matter which way we would wind up structuring it there would come a point about halfway through the film when ideally the aim was you were flowing between different time frames, knowing where you are, but almost accepting them all as one reality rather than here's a flashback that informs that. And, you know, that it's not really that kind of storytelling. I like that choice a lot.

And I'm glad that you mentioned that so but can you help me understand then because I couldn't figure it out honestly how we know we're moving between different time periods and what what choices you did make rather than tinting the color or shifting the film stock or something like that absolutely we did uh you know it was prepped between you know the art department and camera and costume, hair, makeup, I mean, all these fantastic creatives, we prepped it with one huge grid of information that everybody had to feed into. So every story day had this vertical stack of information and we were able to dial up or dial down what was doing

the work there i mean it i was aware that what what needed to happen was for a viewer to be able to inhale vast amounts of information without feeling like it was being spoon-fed because of course the obvious way was to put you know um you know 2015 up and we were absolutely not going to do that. So once everybody spotted that that was the task, that you had hair that could help, costume that could help, and the worlds, their actual flat, and then the home that they live in, which were at developmental stages,

that when you first see Almut's flat, she's got cardboard boxes, she hasn't unpacked properly, which is really an expression of where she's at in her life. She's almost all about career and is rather temporary in her life. And the walls are half painted, it's not finished. And then you return to it and it could be six, seven months later, they've moved in together and it looks like somebody's given it a coat of paint and has unpacked the boxes. So I think you were taking information from that without you feeling that it is being spoon-fed to you um and you know the scenes themselves nick is a really fine crafter of a scene so the beginning the end beginning middle and end of each scene was was

was very well placed they weren't vague scenes. So it was visual. That was the, that was the, that was the task. It was mise en scene. It was this sort of old fashioned working that really hard and making sure that everything had its own distinct visual identity that somebody could find a clue in,

locate themselves in it. It's very effective. You mentioned there's two great star parts in the script, and it's been 17 years since Boye, since you worked with Andrew. Had you worked on the stage at all? Had you guys done any work on the stage? No, we've never worked in the theater. The first time I saw him act was on stage

in a play called Chat Room at the National Theatre. But no, we've never worked together on stage. So how have you both changed in the 17 years? What was it like coming back together? Gosh, it's just, you know, in every way and not at all is this sort of banal and profound answer, really. Because, you know, when he was, when we did we did boy he was right at the start of his career it was the first leading role he had played on screen and he was very very nervous of the idea of making it a tv film which is what it was it ultimately got a cinema release of

course but at the time it was a channel 4 one-off film back in the day when they when they did those and he had only had one tv experience before which was on a hospital procedural where he was brought in i think it was his first job out of drama school brought in as a like a figure on a stretcher said whatever he was going to say the action the director shouted action he said it cut moving on and that was it there was no rest there was no and he was absolutely freaked out by it because he's really detailed andrew and he loves process so i think he thought maybe this could be the same he had seen a play i'd done at the national called the pillow man so he knew that i was an an actor's director as it were but schedules being schedules we had six weeks to shoot this thing so it took quite a while to talk him into it. And in a way, his fear and his terror

really helped him in the part because it just infused what he was doing on screen. And there was also a lot of anxiety in Andrew about, I think in a way, he was a young man looking forward into his life, wondering if the career that he wanted was going to happen for him. And that kind of wishing for a better future was very affecting in his role.

Now, cut to sort of 17 years later, he has had the career he's wanted and been some. And he, of course, has turned into a man, but has held on to the very palpable emotional quality in his acting. And I think that's the thing that I felt would appeal to him about this role was that what Tobias was on the page was, you know, the possibility of creating a new form of a leading man in a way, was somebody who's gentle not alpha um has got an edge when when needed to but isn't threatened by his partner being this sort of successful career person in the world and you know that's a tall order to get a leading man to play that which is sort of rather shocking still in this day and age but he spotted that that that was the thing to embrace about it rather than to try and play away from it or to bend it into

something which it didn't want to be and and and then sort of inhabited it beautifully i mean on a technical level he's masterful as well because of the quantity and quality of work he's done in the meantime so there's something almost balletic about him in the way that he deals with the camera now and film set i mean he's got a sort of he has that third eye which is extraordinary to behold i've had him on the show before i'm i'm such an admirer of the character of his stardom. You know, you were describing sort of this new version of stardom that he's attempting to create. And this feels like a perfect part

for that thing, this kind of radical vulnerability, this wide-eyed sincerity that is very uncommon in our culture. I really think he's great in this movie. And then by contrast, Florence Pugh is in this interesting moment in her career too,

where she is fast becoming a very big star um this is probably one of the more richer parts that she's been able to take on like how did she come into the the film can you talk about her performance a bit of course and i agree i mean it's it's she's she's pretty glorious in in the film um and gets to sort of rev her acting engines in a way, in a way, which is really thrilling to see. And,

you know, Florence was shortly after Andrew agreed to come on board was, was one of the first people I mentioned to him. And he, he loved the idea. He didn't know her, nor did I. So it was like,

you know, I would love to approach Florence about this. I've never met her, you know, and she wasn't available because she was doing this Marvel's Thunderbolts. And just before we moved on, literally, I think sort of two weeks later, as we were about to bite the bullet and just go, okay, let's go somewhere else. My casting director, Fiona, made a phone call to, she said, let me just triple check once more.

Called Garnet's agent and the agent said, oh my God, I was about to call you literally this morning. That film has shifted back and this never happens. And it's shifted back by eight weeks. And it was the eight weeks window that we had Andrew for. It was like comical.

So, you know, it was game was game on and but I had never met her I didn't know what her process was I didn't know you know and Andrew had never I think Andrew met her socially like but very briefly um but I had an instinct that she was ambitious about her work and um and and absolutely she is and And it, you know, they, when they met, what was great was they liked each other quite quickly, but it took a moment to, we had two weeks of rehearsal, which was plenty, but I needed two weeks of us just allowed them to sort of find each other and actually to click that the film really was about what was going to happen in their eye line between the two of them.

Um, and I thought that, you know, I was very secure in the fact that I thought they were both very good casting. I felt that she's able to effortlessly display such a degree of agency and strength in the characters that she plays in the world. And she clearly has amazing acting chops. So I thought, wow, it's great if she can combine this really focused, driven young woman making her way in the restaurant world. When she's struck by illness and tries to hold it at bay and it would dial up something in her, which is almost dial up more ambition. I want to do it all. I want to be able to do home and the career and everything, that the vulnerability when it would finally hit her, which it does in the big kitchen scene, argument between them, would be devastating. And, you know, and she's, you know, signed on it. I

mean, she's just, I think, extraordinary in the film. And you're right, it's at a, she's at a, she's at a much earlier stage in her career. It's that point that's thrilling to observe where you're watching a gifted actor spread their wings and really take off. And you're going, oh my God, there's quite a journey going to happen here with this actor. Because A, she's fearless as well. Or whatever fear she has,

she's able to keep it away from her work and her choices. And I think she hasn't quite touched the extent of her talents yet. So that's really exciting to observe. She seems very unaffected too. You know, she does not seem to have like an arrogant posture, seems very comfortable in her own skin in an unusual way for like a young, successful actor. And Andrew, you know, he's sort of known for like a sensitivity like it's a very different it's a contrast in styles like is that something you were looking for between the two of them

well i was it's something i was looking for both characters to speak to you know i mean almit in the in the film i was aware was going to be in in chef whites for most of it she's not and Florence is an extraordinary wearer of couture clothing and she can do red carpet like nobody but she's utterly free of vanity when it comes to what she does on screen and yet somehow makes it all work she sort of has an effortless stylishness. But one of the things that I loved about the world of the script and wanted to really capture was that it's a contemporary London. It's not a film London that you feel filtered through lots of others. It's not a genre London. And nor is it a sort of gritty realist London it's just a London that a lot of professionals happen to live in and it was great that they both spotted that and that they were both wanting also

to come home do work in England which was close to that sort of aspect of themselves that almost allow the characters to sit quite close to themselves even though they're quite different from who they are but they were able to bring to allow them sit closer to themselves which gives a sort of effortlessness to the to the to the performances one thing i really liked about it is it's a movie that we don't see very often even though it's a pretty critical part of the movie sort of movie history which is it's a good old-fashioned tearjerker about normal people there's like nothing extraordinary really about what's going on in this world i think almit's career is very high level but aside from that these are just regular people um what is your like relationship

to this genre this style of film um well i felt that it's, I still feel it's easily dismissed as a genre which is like weepy or which is sort of sentimental. And my ambition for this was never for it to be sentimental, to be unashamedly emotional. that you're dealing with a number of the things which in everyday life are some of the most profound things that happen to individuals when they happen to them, if they happen to them, falling in love, making a life with that person, and having a baby, should people choose to or want to do that. And to those people, it is profound to the point of awe, okay, that those things happen. To everybody else, it's like, oh, get over it. You know, it's like, whatever.

It's just, it's this stuff of like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Got it, got it. And the fact that the film takes it seriously, right, and deals with the two of them in a way that at times is completely absurd right it's just the way they meet the way in which their wish is they spark off each other with a degree of wit and the playfulness that is in the relationship allows it to not get too pretentious right and to sort of you know, you know, up itself, as it were. And the fact that, you know, you have this sort of gorgeous irony

of the whole day of waiting for this baby to arrive, nothing's happening, nothing's happening, and then suddenly they're out of time and it's game on and they're in a loo in a very unattractive petrol station in South London. And the absurd nature of that and the humor of it, allied to the stakes, right? You want it to be okay for them. You don't want anything to go wrong.

And the way that then that crests into something very profound for the pair of them, because it's something they both really wanted. That felt to me, okay, that if we can get that right, that will speak to people. And it's not necessarily speaking about a film genre. It's not, you know, I get it. It's very simple and it's quite basic. But a lot of the things that people would count as them being simple and basic to other people's lives are profoundly important to themselves. That's the sort of paradox of it, I think. I took another look at Closed Circuit the other day after seeing We Live in Time,

and I was thinking about just what an incredibly different kind of movie that is from this new movie. So I was wondering, is there a certain kind of a genre or a certain kind of a story that you would want to tell on screen at this point in your career? I'd love to have another go at a thriller, you know, and that was a case of me having done, you know, I had done Intermission, which was my first film, which was a sort of kind of explosion out of the gate with lots of energy and just figuring out what you're doing. I'd done Boye and Is Anybody There? And I was keen to try something which was a little more genre and maybe on a slightly different scale as well.

And the idea of doing a contemporary legal thriller set in London was very attractive. And, and there's much about it. That's really good. Not least the two wonderful actors in it, in playing the leads. And yet I feel it didn't quite do what I wanted it to do.

So I would love to return to that, to that area again and see if I can kind of um crack it I vividly remember um seeing your production of a behanding in Spokane on Broadway when I was living in New York and I was I was wondering if that's something that like that kind of tone would be interesting to you to put on screen. Because most of your films have not captured, and obviously I know you've collaborated with the writer many times on stage, but that's a unique energy that you seem to have a great handle on on stage too. You know, it's one of the things that I feel very comfortable with, right? Which is spinning between opposite sensations, really. And in a

weird way, that's what We Live in Time does, right, is that it just swings between them. And when you spot that, and in Martin's case, you know, the writing is often gloriously spinning between being, you know, achingly funny and horrifying a second later and you don't quite know what you're meant to settle down into or sort of take a reasonable view with. It just sort of keeps tripping you up. And he did the same and even more horrifyingly so in The Pillow Man, which was the first thing we had done. And, you know, especially The Pillow Man, that was a real case of me feeling so lucky to have found i didn't find the play martin asked me to do the play and i was so lucky to have been given that opportunity because that extended my range as a director unquestionably and allowed me to

figure out the idea of humor being like a kind of heat shield that allows you to get close to something really shocking and dark and that actually it's something that actors once they begin to figure out how to do it with one's help or pointing out they love to do it it's like spinning from trapeze to trapeze you know it's it's that's really thrilling to work out with actors and then for viewers and an audience to experience. Um, yeah, I would love to find something.

I mean, look, I, you know, I may well not be asked to do a lot of, um, uh, weepy dramas and,

and I should go in search of something far darker and harder for our next conversation. Hopefully I would welcome that. I, before we go, I have to say, it may not surprise you coming from a person named Sean Fantasy but... I was going to say it's a great Irish name. Yeah.

Brooklyn is eerily close to my family's story. Oh, wow. Incredibly affecting and just a wonderful movie that I love very much. Thank you for that. And, uh,

you know, we end every episode of the show by asking filmmakers, what's the last great thing that they have seen? Have you seen anything that you've loved recently? Amelia Perez. What did you like about it? Well, I adore Jacques Odiard,

right? And I mean, you know, I talk about a director who sort of plays with the kind of guardrails of genre and is never constrained by them i mean i just love that man's instincts both literally where he puts the camera but also his instincts for his his characters i mean he just has a sort of transgressive love of everyone and puts an audience in such an interesting relationship

to what he's doing and that he's not a young director right and the energy coming off that screen and the way in which it's met I mean if you said you know if you stopped at halfway through and said who's who's directed this I don't know this this this kid's grown up on TikTok or something it's like it was it just had an authenticity to it as well that i was really bowled over by and i thought zoe saldana was was was you know magnificent and i thought it all was great so i was thrilled by it i just really was um excited as i am by anything he does but i was i was extra excited by this because it felt like a big swing and i think it's paying off. It's a great recommendation.

John, congrats on We Live in Time. Thanks for doing the show. Lovely to meet you. All the best. See you later, Sean. Thank you to John Crowley. Thanks to Amanda. Of course, we miss her on the show.

Thanks to Jack Sanders. Thanks to our producer, Bobby Wagner, for his work on today's episode. Later this week on the show, we have a special bonus. A Slasher Movie Hall of Fame. A Megapod with Pavements director and returning champion on the big picture, Alex Ross-Perry.

He's the homie. We'll see you then.