The Big Picture - ‘Ant-Man and the Wasp: Quantumania’ Is Here! But Is Marvel’s Future Here Too?

Episode Date: February 17, 2023

Sean and Amanda are joined by 'Ringer-Verse' cohost Mallory Rubin to measure the successes and shortcomings of the first film in Phase 5 of the Marvel Cinematic Universe: Peyton Reed’s 'Ant-Man and the Wasp: Quantumania’ (1:00). Then, they take stock of Marvel fatigue and its effects on the entire movie industry (43:00) before debuting Amanda’s new segment (1:02:00). Hosts: Sean Fennessey and Amanda Dobbins Guest: Mallory Rubin Producer: Bobby Wagner Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

I'm Yossi Salek, and I'm the host of Bandsplain, a show where we explain cult bands and iconic artists by going deep into their histories and discographies. We're back with a brand new season at our brand new home, the Ringer Podcast Network, tackling a whole new batch of artists, from grunge gods to power pop pioneers to new metal legends and many, many more.

Listen to new episodes every Thursday, only on Spotify. Get groceries delivered across the GTA from Real Canadian Superstore with PC Express. Shop online for super prices and super savings. Try it today and get up to $75 in PC Optimum Points. Visit superstore.ca to get started. I'm Sean Fennessey. I'm Amanda Dobbins.

And this is The Big Picture, a conversation show about the quantum realm. On this episode, we're talking about the latest film in the Marvel Cinematic Universe. The first film in Phase 5. That movie is called Ant-Man and the Wasp Quantumania. Joining us to do so, a little creature with a big heart. One of the chief architects of the ringerverse. It's Mallory Rubin.

Hi, Mal. Sean, Amanda, what an honor it is to be here with you. I have my Pym Particles ready to roll. Do you know what that is, Amanda? Absolutely not. Not ideal at the outset of a conversation about an Ant-Man movie. I came here with a good attitude. You did.

We all saw this together. Sean and I sat in a different area of the theater with aisle access, which is really important. The Ringerverse crew saved seats for Sean and Amanda just to put this all out there. And we were rejected? No, that's not what happened. I arrived before you guys.

I got a seat on the aisle. I did not save you guys any seats. But I did save one for Dobbins, which I have, you know, has become a tradition. Yeah, it's nice. It's very sweet.

We don't just see superhero movies together. We see a lot of different kinds of movies together for war purposes. You guys, you roll deep as a Legion and we didn't join you.

But you sit in the center. You guys were like dead center of the center aisle. But you sit in the center. You guys were like dead center. Slightly off to the left, but mostly center. I think on that curved IMAX screen. You may be onto something. You want to be in the middle.

We'll get to that soon. Let's dig right into the movie though before we get further into our viewing habits because this is a big movie. It's an important movie at the box office in 2023. It's an important movie in the Marvel storytelling arc.

You know, being perfectly honest with you, I've been quite mixed to down on Marvel for about three years now. Amanda, you've been mixed to down on Marvel since the day you were born. Mallory. Yes. While I think of you as a thoughtful critic, you are, broadly speaking, a big fan of what they've been doing with the Marvel Cinematic Universe. That's right. I love Marvel. Let's just do a quick reaction before we start explaining kind of the ins and outs of this story and what it might mean for the future. Amanda, I'll start with you.

What'd you think of Quantumania? I guess I will go first because I didn't, I have no idea what happened in this movie. I have like absolutely no idea what happened, but I laughed a lot. And I did also find myself not totally mad and thinking as I was watching, like, I hope Sean and Mallory like this because to me, like on the outside, I was like, wow, they just, they made a comic book movie for comics people. And if you like this stuff, it seems like they're hitting a lot of notes and it's kind of funny and it seems absurd to me but also contained and like makes sense and it's like if you don't like this then i don't know what they could do for you anymore is my is my response to this you've located fascinating a

very interesting dynamic that i think is and is going to be at play with the reception of this movie. Mallory, I want you to go last since I think of you as the expert of experts here. I really enjoyed this movie a lot.

I did have some pre-game warning that it was not one of the strongest entries and critically it has not been one of the warmest received movies

in the Marvel. Yeah, they're big mad. People are down on this movie even more so than the last three or four. I enjoyed it almost explicitly for what you just identified, Amanda, which is that it is a, even though it is a,

it feels like a kind of intergalactic story. It's a big science fiction version of a story. It is a very contained story. It felt actually in many ways like a bottle episode in the Marvel storytelling to me. It does feature the new big bad for the long-term storytelling in Kang the Conqueror, who we'll spend a lot of time on here

in our conversation. But it's a family movie that has like some Ghostbusters Back to the Future vibes. And it certainly has a big Star Wars vibe. And of course, I love Star Wars. Even I recognize that. And it also has the Ant-Man tone,

if not the Ant-Man setting, which is to say, it's a comedy. I mean, it's a very loose, kind of jangly character comedy that also features some cosmic power changing hands. So generally speaking, I liked it. I do understand why there's been some pushback to it. Mallory, I'm very curious. What did you make of Quantumania? I love the MCU. I love Star Wars. I love comic books and comic book movies. I love the Ant-Man franchise.

I am really mixed on this movie. I'm really surprised that you liked this a lot more than I did, Sean. Maybe this is a fun dynamic for the pod, a little bit of a twist. There are things about the movie, all of which I assume we will hit as we go, that I really loved. And broadly, I was entertained and had fun at the movies for two hours. Without a doubt, I had fun. This is an entertaining viewing experience

and a bountiful spectacle. I loved Kang. I thought Jonathan Majors was incredible. I also loved Jonathan Majors as he remains in the Loki finale, which was on my mind in a very active way watching this movie. I loved how unapologetically comic book-y it was.

It just embraced its candy-coated nerdy heart in a way that I genuinely appreciate. I have a lot of questions about the specific choices within it, though. And I think it, to me, actually kind of moved away from and lost the heart of the Ant-Man franchise. So I'm a little, I'm surprised that that was one of the things that was clicking for you, Sean, because I think that they moved away from some of the heartbeats of the prior two films. And more so even than just Ant-Man and Ant-Man and the Wasp, Scott's deployment across the MCU and the way his character has functioned across the MCU, I felt like the absence of that a little bit here. Well, let me, do you want to follow up on that? Yeah, I just want to like big picture.

Yeah, because this is the big picture podcast. Pun unintended. Did you like Black Panther 2 more than this movie? Do you think that that's a way more successful movie? Or where are you? Can you think that that's a way more successful movie? Or where are you? Can you break that down for me? Because I liked Wakanda Forever more than this movie, yes. I think they had completely different objectives and aims,

which is, I have to assume, going to be like one of the through lines of the conversation today, which is the kickoff of phase five, the real rollout of Kang is the big bad of the multiverse saga. I will forecast that I found, I think, Phase 4 more successful than the bulk of the viewing public and was not in full-on Marvel panic mode throughout most of Phase 4, which many

people were. Myself included. I've made multiple podcasts about that. Yeah. So I'm not entering Ant-Man. The headspace I was in was not, oh my God, if they don't check these five boxes, Marvel is doomed. That's just not how I feel about it at all. And I think that actually a lot of the anxiety and agita around what is the big plan of this new saga, who is the new Thanos, etc., that we're like, we collectively as the viewing public, I think, have been comparing phase four to phase three instead of phase one, which is what would be appropriate because it's a reset.

It's the beginning of a new era. And I viewed phase four as a bridge coming out of the Infinity saga into this mantle passing moment, establishing new villains and new heroes alike. But the multiverse stories specifically, I think, have more to do than some of the other movies and, like, different requirements in terms of unfurling new aspects of the mythology and the canon. And so, to me, like, the comp is not Ant-Man compared to Wakanda Forever. It's how does Ant-Man fit in with Doctor Strange, you know, with Multiverse of Madness, with No Way Home, with What If, with Loki Season 1, because these are the stories that are really signaling this is what this is about now for Phases 4, 5, and 6. And yet within that, you can have a lot of caveats to the caveats. I think the part of the MCU's like

inherent charm and appeal is that it's never just one thing. So the fact that you could go in the Infinity Saga and zoom in and just be with Scott Lang on the streets of San Francisco, totally grounded in one family, one life, one community, and actually not worry about Thanos for a minute, even though Scott is the one who comes up with the time heist and unlocks the quantum tunnel and that entire plot in Endgame and is really crucial to the ultimate plot mechanic of the Infinity Saga. That's like the joy of it to me, that the big fight in the first Ant-Man is inside of a fucking briefcase and then on a child's train set. So that's a little bit of like a wooly thing to track. And I think mileage may vary on what people want out of a given MCU movie. I don't think there's one right answer other than

for the movies to be good and interesting and enjoyable and to follow character arcs. So you actually put your finger on what I think is a resolution of the crisis point for me, which is everything that you just laid out and discussed, and I know that you understand deeply, is this complex latticework that Marvel and Disney have been building over the course of 16 years now.

It makes Amanda's head hurt. I literally was just thinking that's more than a third of my life. Sadly, not quite a half. May is 15 years. Yeah. Iron Man. And so making that comparison

to between, you know, phase one and versus phase four where it's like phase one, it was like Captain America, the first Avenger, Iron Man, you know, the first Thor film, all those movies that came in that

early wave that then set the template for the stories that we would watch. We were just in that with Shang-Chi, with the Eternals, with Wakanda Forever, with all these

movies that we just saw. So maybe, you know, we should withhold some of our criticisms about how the stories unfold. But to me, when I watched this movie, it felt like the thing that I've read that some people are bumping on is the thing that didn't bother me at all. Which is that this actually felt like a very contained standalone movie to me. Now, it does feature a big, very important character with a very convoluted kind of scientific aspect to it. If you are able to set some of that aside while watching it, it doesn't feel that far afield to me from that first anime movie that you're describing.

Now, it's not on the streets of San Francisco. It's set in a quantum realm. I've got to tell you, the low point of this movie for me was about 10 minutes in when I realized that it was all going to be in the quantum realm. Gotta tell you, the low point of this movie for me was about 10 minutes in when I realized that it was all going to be in the quantum realm. I was like,

oh no, they're not going back to the real world. It's just CGI. Yes. But from there, you know, that's an early low point

and then you rise back up. It's always fun watching these movies with Amanda because as soon as the hands go to the face, you know that we've entered a zone of storytelling she's not comfortable with. But then the laugh started to come go to the face, you know that we've entered a zone of

storytelling she's not comfortable with. But then the laugh started to come a little bit. And I, you know, I think I knew what I was getting myself into. You know, for anybody who wants to know what this movie is about, I'm happy to share that right now. So Scott Lang, Paul Rudd's character, Ant-Man. No, let me do it. Let me do it. You want to do it? Yeah. Okay. Oh, great. I love this. Go ahead. Oh, wow. What a treat. Ant-Man A.K.A. Paul Rudd Is walking down the street In San Francisco And everything's going great

And he's reunited With his daughter And he missed some time With her Because of the snap But now Everything's better The blip

Well he snapped Thanos snapped But it's called the blip Listen You're doing great Keep going They were reunited In the endgame

But you're doing great You're thriving Keep. Listen. You're doing great now. Keep going. They were reunited in Endgame, but you're doing great. You're thriving. Keep going. Different actress. You're doing wonderfully. Catherine Newton is the new cast. You can say that now. I spent at least 10 minutes of the movie trying to figure out where else I knew Catherine

Newton from. Sean and I conferred on this during the movie. This is the other thing. He'll talk to me during the movie. Big Little Lies. I know. And then also Blockers. And Blockers was what I was trying to place.

And you did. And she did very well. They're together. Apparently, they have pizza with Michelle Pfeiffer and Michael Douglas. And then there's a machine. Basically, Cassie, the daughter, has been doing some home engineering, some home physics. She's also an activist. We should say this.

Oh, yeah, sure. She's trying to better the world. That's true. Oh, right. She got arrested an activist, we should say this. She's trying to better the world. That's true. Oh, right, she got arrested for protesting. So she's on the side of good. But then she displays her hobby, which is some sort

of portal, and it sends a signal to the quantum realm, and then Michelle Pfeiffer is like, lock it down, but it's too late because somehow this guy kang who i know was at the end of loki um used the open portal to get his power through to them and slurp them all into the quantum realm and so then they're stuck in the quantum realm and they gotta get out but that involves a various obstacles um native to the quantum realm and also due to king's

michelle pfeiffer's history with king in the quantum verse which um she didn't share with the quantum realm sorry that she didn't share with anyone and sort of like the ethics of the universe. You sound like a trepidatious 12 year old presenting a book report on a bison. That said, she nailed it. But that is accurate. That is what happens in this film. And then that's more or less the first 15 minutes of the movie. And then it becomes an adventure science fiction story inside the quantum realm and she did leave out scott's

memoir and her review as a literary enthusiast but oh that was good it was funny i mean the whole bit he's on the street he's happy you threw me off because you were like he's been reunited with his daughter for a million years and i was like fuck so they don't want to hear about the book okay he worked at baskinin Robbins he was employee of all time well what'd you make of that Mel what'd you make of you know just teasing us with the world of Ant-Man and then just using it as an opportunity to suck us into this world I was sad honestly I can't believe that you're more mad about this than I was like again I had fun at the movie I didn't I definitely did not dislike the movie. It's just a real mixed bag for me. And I'm finding myself, like, in a place now where I'm of what, like, again, the CGI volume nature of the 95-minute or whatever it is,

quantum realm stretch, is, like, not really what bothered me about it. Like, it seems to have bothered much of the internet. I think that stuff is fun. I like entering new, deeply imaginative worlds that could only have popped into somebody's mind and then been rendered because we're like lucky enough to have the MCU or Star Wars or whatever in our lives, right? That part's fun. The thing that was on display in that opening stretch

and then again at the very end and the thing that's so central to the heart of the first two Ant-Man movies or how Scott is deployed in Captain America Civil War, you know, Captain America, thanks for thanking of me. Like, can't even get a sentence out because it's so odd to be around Captain America. The reading of the memoir was so funny to me. Seeing this, like, new family unit that all these people have these real fractured relationships with each other

have managed to stitch back together using the pimp particles on the pizza to save eight bucks. Great stuff. And then we lost a lot of that particular energy and the sensibility

that is specific to this franchise and these characters when they were down in the quantum realm. I think the setting sapped the movie of some of the soul

that I like have come to really love. And I think it's notable, too, because to be clear, Kang in the movie, the big bad of the multiverse saga in the smallest franchise, I love that. I think that's great. I think that's very closely mapped on to the Infinity Saga, where we get a wink at a death mention with Thanos and the

Stinger to Avengers, but where do we really get our first consequential time with Thanos? Guardians. There's a very clear comp there. That's not the issue at all. It's that Guardians was Guardians. And if you think back to Guardians and you think back to the first Ant-Man, I think those are the most emblematic movies of those earlier years of the MCU. Phase two in particular, these questions of like, is anyone going to give a shit about an Ant-Man movie? Who were the Guardians? Will people care?

And then people loved those movies and they were successful. And it was like the MCU was a rocket ship. Nothing can stop it. And that element, I think, of the differentiation between the franchises, that's what I'm starting to, I think, wrestle with a little bit. And I don't know the answer to it because I think in phase four, one of the things that people, not to be too strawman-y about it, but I think people didn't like about the TV shows a lot was like, well, what are the stakes, right? How does this connect to the larger plan? This feels too small and

inconsequential. That's part of what I liked about it. I thought it was just really fun to roll around with Clint and Kate Bishop and Lucky in the streets of New York fighting the tracksuit mafia and looking at different arrow tips. Like that was cool and neat, right? Not everything has to be the same thing. Not everything has to connect to Thanos or to Kang or to the multiverse. I don't think that's really the issue at all. It was just the specific execution inside of the movie.

The specific choices. Like, Monarch, I thought was really funny and great, but weirdly actually heightened to me that some of the humor that I would expect in an Ant-Man movie wasn't coming from the primary characters. It's kind of amazing to be disagreeing with you about this. Not that I necessarily thought that you and I would have the same opinion,

because we don't usually have the same opinions about these movies, but I think I've reached a moment where what I want is standalone. I don't want to be fully invested in having to watch everything anymore. And I think the TV shows brought that out of me. And there is this concern more broadly, if we're going to talk a little bit more about the business aspect of this in terms of managing the Marvel portfolio over time, where they've just been putting out a lot of stuff in the last three years. And the Disney Plus and the massive rise of streaming as an initiative for Disney and everybody in Hollywood

led to, as opposed to two to three films a year and feeling like they were events and we would gather around those events and we would say like,

and in many ways, I was like strategizing the big picture around when the big superhero movies were coming out and they've become a little bit of an afterthought

to me, at least on this show, in part because you guys have your shows which are so great on the Ringerverse. But also because I've fallen out of love and I just feel like they diluted the product. And what this reminded me of is what Amanda said, weirdly. I don't know if I've ever said that about a comic book movie before, but it did remind me of reading a comic book and not just a comic book but specifically yeah the idea of walking into a comic book store and picking up a book in the middle of its run yeah and finding a you know

issue 67 and just flipping through it in the store and reading it and kind of seeing what the world is like and deciding if i wanted to kind of dive deeper into those characters and spend time there because you know i think you may have actually pointed this out to me mallory when we were discussing it but i think 80 of the characters that we meet in this new ant man movie we're never going to see again they're in the quantum realm like will we ever go back there i don't know it's hard to say right and so with that in mind there was a kind of one-off nature of this despite everything that major jonathan majors brings to the movie and the consequence of that character long term that felt like i could just leave it in the movie. And I was kind of relieved to be able to leave it in the movie theater.

It does seem like the early reactions are much more with you, Mallory, than they are with Amanda and I who are like ready to go on with our day. I think people are much more down on it than I am. But like the quantum people are an interesting lens because they're fun, they're quirky. That was really, I think, I've seen the Star Wars, most likely Cantina comp a lot for those aspects of the Quantum Realm. You meet these new beings, this fun design.

That was where I was thinking of Guardians a lot too. It feels like wandering into nowhere or whatever the case may be in a Guardians film. Is that, you didn't miss Luis you didn't miss the part of an Ant-Man movie where we get that amazing five minute Luis story that like can only

happen in an Ant-Man movie that would have been so great why couldn't Luis have gone to the quantum realm? It's kind of weird that he's not there because David Desmalchin does voice a character he's one of the other guys who's in the kind of the gang of friends in the first two movies and he is it zeb i can't remember the name of the character um but the the guy with no holes you know he was funny yeah he was like the classic bobby who's the star wars guy i like

babu frick right babu frick yeah i was like oh it's like a Babu Frick yeah he was funny and there was no Michael Pena and there were some things missing on the flip side though does every Ant-Man

movie need to be like the last Ant-Man movie? I mean that's the question and that's I mean this is like a

I just feel like I'm a referee here I'm like and I'm catching one of every three Mallory references but it's like

it is what do you want from this and is it do you and really what do you want from this and is it do you and and really like do you want the movie and do you want the standalone experience or do you want like it to fit into the larger not even to fit I mean you want it to fit into the larger puzzle too but you Mallory as I understand you have two criticisms one it's like not a fun anime movie like the other ones which I agree. I thought the first 10 minutes and the last five minutes were way the best part of this movie.

But then also that the way that they're deploying like the interconnectedness is not, and like developing the MCU doesn't feel earned necessarily. I just, I'm surprised, Sean. I think that one of the things that really worked for you was that it felt standalone. Because I think that that's like, I actually really agree with what you just said. Not every Ant-Man movie or any single character franchise in the MCU needs to be exactly the same. Part of the fun is the evolution from film to film. Like, imagine if every Thor movie had been Thor or Dark World and we never got Ragnarok. That would be like a legitimate tragedy in recent pop culture history. What an incredible thing that that franchise got to reinvent itself.

And frankly, the fact that Love and Thunder tried to be Ragnarok was part of its limitation ultimately. So I completely agree with that. I think continuing to evolve and reinvent is great and to the credit of the people making the movies. I think one of the things that I've enjoyed hearing Kevin Feige talk about over the years, and this isn't necessarily even just inside of a character franchise,

but more broadly across the MCU, is how essential it is. This was like a big part of the Winter Soldier conversation. Beloved and excellent movie, right? Genre variance. Like, every movie

having a new intent. I think that's paramount. It's just that that could be true and it could still not be a perfectly executed version of that thing. And the aspects of it's totally I think it's completely valid to say it was fun to meet the quantum people instead of just hanging out with the X-Con crew again. That's completely valid. But there's a large stretch of the movie where Scott, as Ant-Man, is just like he's pulling

another heist because he's Scott and that's the thing they do and Kang needed Pym Particles. I think this manifested in a couple different ways. In the Scott-Cassie relationship, I had some questions. I think that that was very charming and touching and moving and wonderful in a lot of ways. You're girl dad territory so yeah it's a fucking dad daughter movie that's why this movie worked for me come on yeah you know what's great

is just having a daughter you just love to have okay I'm glad you said this because one of the defining things about Scott Lang's character in the MCU is how much he loves his daughter how he would do anything for her and how every choice he makes he views through the lens of, is this going to help me be a better dad for Cassie? Can you explain to me, after your cherished and impassioned viewing of Ant-Man and the Wasp Quantumania, a movie that you adore and love, why Scott Lange doesn't seem to know a thing about his kid yeah he's a narcissist like all dads like but that's a very that to me that's very logical the whole the movie sets up with him writing his own memoir which is a gas bag memoir stop caring about being an avenger like those those outcomes are fine but what are the things that led to that um i if i could explain it away as a series

of ptsd after all of these people endured the near end of the universe thanks to thanos but they didn't dwell on that too much i mean i i think you could probably pick apart some of those things to me like a heavy dramatic theme like that which is like why is this father out of touch with his daughter right that which kind of premises you into the movie. Eventually evaporates in the midst of a science fiction adventure, right? So you are, as a kind of analyst, very theme driven. I love theme and characters, you know? You think about that all the time. In these movies- I also love sci-fi romps though. That's true. But that's something that I'm not likely to get hung up on in a movie like this, in part because we just got through Shang-Chi, Eternals, Black Panther, Wakanda Forever,

these kind of load-bearing, heavily dramatic stories of like faith, family, enduring struggle, like really heavy, larded material. What was Eternals larded with? The cosmic future of the universe. I mean, who really controls and shapes life and power? I mean, that's really what that story is about. It's as heady as a Marvel story has ever been. And this is not that. This is actually literally and figuratively shrunk down to its smallest possible particles.

And I'm willing to accept it on those terms is what you said before true no i i don't i like don't love this movie i like it fine i just really have not liked an mcu movie in a good long while with the exception of no way home and no way home ruled that was very charming that was great we all had great we had a great time and in fact we saw that movie together we did we thought about that movie together Amanda yelled at us on the pod for how long it took us to get to the multiple Peters

I was just like what's wrong with you two I was just like there are three Spider-Men I drove across the town to see three Spider-Men and it took you like 20 minutes

and you were like wanted to talk about what's Daredevil is that who she is I still do and anytime you want to talk about Matt Burr I'm here

I don't know who that is. I think that this felt like a side story, even though it was like the first story that was meant to kind of springboard us into the new era of this storytelling. I think that's right. Maybe it's the adjacency to the very, the presence of a very heavy,

almost existential aspect of the film with Kang which I loved and thought was great can you like explain Kang for us

for the listeners he's portrayed by I would say right now is like America's number one draft pick like for as an actor

it's Jonathan Majors Jonathan Majors it's understood yes this is a huge year for him Creed 3 is coming out in a few weeks I've seen Creed 3 Like, as an actor. It's Jonathan Majors. Jonathan Majors. It's understood. Yes. This is a huge year for him. Creed 3 is coming out in a few weeks. I've seen Creed 3.

He's phenomenal in Creed 3. So jealous. I can't wait. I saw a movie out of Sundance, which I talked about, called Magazine Dreams, which is just acquired by Searchlight. Messy movie, but he is astounding in that movie. He's like a got-the-juice person right now. So he's taking on this character that is, you know, for all intents and purposes the new thanos who is that person amanda do you want to explain who kang the conqueror is after you explained so wonderfully the plot of we are stepping on a

little bit of our last segment here but so i'm gonna save my explanation and questions okay um for the special music that bobby prepared but you go ahead you start so i'll do a very quick i'm famous for my quick sure explanation i just had to catch myself in real time there but kang's comics history is decades long and even by the standards of ever-evolving Marvel Comics canon, there are so many aspects and complexities to it that it would actually be impossible to give a very quick version of it. But ultimately, the snapshot of who Kang is, Nathaniel Richards. This is the character. And in the comics, Nathaniel Richards on Earth-6311. Now, you know Earth-616 is the primary continuity, right? So different Earth, other Earth. 30th century, Amanda. Future, okay? Fast forward through a million things. Time machine from an ancestor travels through time. We hit ancient Egypt. You saw Ramatat, one of the variants in the first stinger so you're familiar with how ancient egypt will be there was another stinger the mcu there were two singers

yes you left before the second one but thankfully i i stayed and we got to talk about one of the real highlights of the movie which was the post-credit stinger king is a time traveler, a time criminal, a time conqueror. Every time Kang travels through time, there's a new offshoot. So you've got Kang Prime, which is a term that people will be using a lot and that you will hear a lot. And then all of these different versions of Kang based on where in the timeline that Kang has existed, who that Kang has faced. A lot of comics history is with the Avengers, with the Fantastic Four, et cetera. We got to meet in the mid-credits stinger,

Council of Kangs, all of these different variants and versions. We got to meet Immortus. That's like ultimate end of the timeline Kang. Obviously we meet Kang in Loki, the finale, He Who Remains. You've got Iron Lad, which is part of the Young Avengers future of the MCU that is very present here with Stature, Cassie Lang as well. Is that like Muppet Babies?

It's teens and youngsters who are... Sort of. Super heroes. You remember Muppet Babies? No, I was a huge fan. Okay. Victor Timely, one of the variants that...

He was in the post-credits stinger, which I'll save. Maybe we'll talk about that later. But crucially, Loki and Mobius were in the post-credits stinger. So that's like a Loki season two setup. Tracking Kang through time.

Delightful. The super genius intellect coupled with the time travel ability and the super powered suit. So the tech of the suit, like radioactive weapons, super strength, et cetera. The power of the tech itself

and the ability to move through time and then all of these different versions of Kang who emerge. That's kind of the essence of Kang I think when when the news of Kang and Jonathan Major's casting first came out and then certainly after He Who Remains was the star of the finale of Loki and that was just an incredible still one of my favorite hours of Marvel ever just incredible one of the real exciting things was we're going to get to see Jonathan Majors play not just Kang the Conqueror, but all of these different versions of Kang. And that mid-credits stinger, I think, cements and promises, because we've already gotten to He Who Remains and now

Kang, that that is in fact what's going to happen. How often, I mean, we know Avengers the Kang Dynasty and Avengers Secret Wars is what we're building toward in Phase 6, how many times will we see a version of Kang, a Kang variant between now and then? I think it's possible you could see him in every single story in some capacity. People thought that after Loki and then it didn't happen. So maybe they will deploy him a little bit more judiciously

building up to Phase 6. He's a very complicated character. And anytime time travel is introduced and variants are a huge part of this story, it's going to be a lot for people to keep track of. And that is one criticism that I've seen coming out of this movie is, you know, it soft launches us

into this next phase of the storytelling by sharing an indication of everything that Mallory just explained. But it's asking a lot, I think, for regular movie-going Janes and Joes who just want to see you at the movies. You know, like they just want to go out and get some popcorn and pay $18 to park and pay $49.95 for two tickets to sit in a movie theater and then go home and pay their babysitter and drop $150 to be completely confused by which Kang variant they saw in their most recent Marvel movie.

Right. But as a regular Jane in this one context, in some ways it's simpler because I don't care what variant it is. I'm just like watching the movie and all of that is somewhat lost on me. And so what's fascinating about it is that the real hurdle is pleasing the Mallory's of the world. Like, did they get the continuity and they ate things right? And did this add up to this YZ?

I think the other thing that... Again, I loved the Kang stuff in this movie. Loved. Interesting. The other thing that I think affects everyone is just like, at some point you have a stakes problem because what you just said to me means, you know, anything can happen. And then you just restart it and you just say, oh, well, that was over here, but now it's here and this person is here and now we're doing this.

And if you can't bring all of the intricate knowledge that you mallory and comics readers have then it just sort of seems like an arbitrary restart and the more you do of it the less not only sense does it make but the less it matters this was a criticism that we saw in the aftermath of doctor strange the multiverse of madness where they jumped into different multiversal existences and then we saw these variant characters and you we saw in the aftermath of Doctor Strange and the Multiverse of Madness, where they jumped into different multiversal existences and then we saw these variant characters, and we saw John Krasinski as Reed Richards, which was a very exciting moment,

but it wasn't really Reed Richards, and it wasn't really that universe. It was the universe that we were used to spending time in. And so then, to your low-stakes comment earlier, Mal, it just kind of felt like, well, okay, that was not really what I thought it was going to be, which was I thought a big story about the future of these adventures.

And so I think that there is real risk here with overwhelming the audience with multiversal storytelling. It was fun in No Way Home. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. And it was suggested, honestly, even in the Infinity Gauntlet saga, because, you know, the Thanos that is defeated is the second Thanos.

Like, the first Thanos is killed, gets his head cut off. You know what I mean? Like, they kind of, like, whet our appetite for this, but it can get way out of control really fast and confuse 80% of the audience to a deep degree. What do you make of that? Like, have you considered that even as you talk about all of these shows and films?

Oh, yeah. So I have a few different thoughts. In terms of how difficult it is maybe to track or how much is required of a modern-day MCU viewer, yeah, it's on my mind a lot. Even just when it comes to like,

how do we talk about this stuff here at The Ringer? Do you do it with the expectation that everybody who's listening to a pod on movie or show X has seen every single second of Marvel leading up to it? Is that like a realistic expectation to have? And Sean, to your point earlier about comic books, part of the joy, I remember this is something that Jason used to talk about

like when we did Binge Marvel, which I thought was really astute and helpful for people was like it's never too late to become a comic book reader don't feel daunted actually you just pick the starting point here are a few helpful ones and then you have your way in the mcu isn't necessarily built that way i think that there are different slices of it that you can consume and even here like i personally feel that if you see this movie without having seen loki i'm just like how but the more rational part of my brain that is maybe less like emotionally attached to it and frankly less partial to loki like i love loki it's my favorite part of phase four and i I think it's outstanding, and I want and hope everyone

sees it. But if I'm being really honest about it, a lot of what Kang says, even though Kang here is a different variant from He Who Remains, and frankly, they are opposed to each other, right? That's part of the point, is that these Kang variants are trying to get the edge up on each other. And that the multiversal war hinged on these various versions of Kang battling with each other for supremacy. The he who remains, if you think I'm evil, well, just wait till you meet my variant speech, which was electric and I fucking loved. We get a version of that from this Kang. Well, I know what's going to happen and you might think you need to stop me but actually helping me is the only way to prevent this end so do you need to see loki like i think so yes but do you really need to i don't know

maybe not so see i think for seen from one direction yeah you would say that you need to know everything and have a mastery and seen from another direction you can be in Amanda's perspective and be like it doesn't really matter at all well right I think there are different ways to consume the MCU and that's fun and fine

and like everybody can have oh you should I fell asleep during the first one oh my sorry it's quite good I think it's by far the best TV show

everyone said it was good but they were just like talking a lot when did it come out May 21 summer of summer of 21 oh yeah

I was pregnant sorry I just fell asleep check it out on Disney Plus it's there waiting for you it's there waiting for you so yeah May 21st? Summer of 21st. Oh, yeah. I was pregnant. Sorry. I just fell asleep. Check it out on Disney+. It's there waiting for you. It's there waiting for you. So, yeah, that part is complex, right? Just how much information

do you have to be able to hold in your mind at once? The multiverse itself, in terms of the mythology, the lore, the canon, yeah, it is complicated. I think by the time, we know definitively

we're moving towards Secret Wars. And if that follows, even loosely, the Hickman Avengers arc from 2015, if we're going to Battleworld, it's going to be fucking awesome. It is also going to be complex.

Incursions. And we got an incursion mentioned in this movie. And obviously incursions were a big part of Doctor Strange. You know, one universe threatening another. Okay, if we then take pieces of these universes and characters from here, here, here, here,

put them together, what happens? And then you can reset after that and then we head into whatever the next saga is, which is sort of what you're identifying as a fear, Amanda. My thing with the stakes, with Infinity War, even though that was a very different thing, the snap and the turning to dust of half the characters. And that's a movie that is cherished and I love and think is one of the best MCU movies ever. But there was a real narrative thread after of like, well, we know they're going to bring these characters back.

There's just no way they're not bringing. That was my reaction. I was like, oh, the ones that disappeared are also the ones who have movies, solo movies announced in three and six and nine months. Yeah. But to me, that didn't mean it didn't have stakes because when we get a scene like Natasha and Cap

over the peanut butter sandwich at Avengers HQ in Endgame and we see the despair and the impact of the loss of those five years, or we see Tony Stark say, like, you know, get back what we lost, of course, but keep what we have. We have to at all costs. Like, that's a meaningful thing with characters we've spent a lot of time with and care about deeply. So I think the stakes can come in different forms. And one of the things that I think is really appealing about multiversal storytelling, and one of the things that I liked, actually, I mean, loved, obviously, about Loki, and liked, actually, quite a bit about Doctor Strange, is seeing the characters interact with other versions of themselves.

And this is, of course, part of what the charm of No Way Home was as well. When the three Peters are realizing, what are the differences in their lives? What are the similarities? When Stephen Strange has to confront what is a true thing about him, no matter what the context of his life is, that's fascinating to me. So do I expect that in a pretty action-oriented

probability field sequence where we get to see a bazillion Scott Langs turn into the human version of the actual ants who helped him in the first day. I mean, do I expect them to all turn to each other and have a conversation about the meaning of life and what's the same about them and what's different? Not really, but I would have loved that. I think that's part of what's interesting about variants is you get to say, well, what's always true about me and what do I have the chance and the ability to maybe change? There is a little bit of that there when they're like, we all want the same thing!

But it was like a second. Do you think that there is a variant where Amanda is super into the MCU? Oh, definitely. Again, this is the great thing about the multiverse. I think there are variant Amandas out there who have been crushing MCU tape for years. We have a comics collection in a garage. You don't think so?

Well, I was going to ask you what stays the same about me. Your fashion sense. Okay. Well, that's not fair. It stays true of all of them, except for the Baskin-Robbins guy. They were all wearing the same thing. Love the Baskin-Robbins guy.

Baskin-Robbins always finds out. I had some questions about that cake. So at end they go back to San Francisco he's given a cake that the Baskin-Robbins manager made for him and then played by Greg Turkington on cinema at the cinema right right and then there are many hours in a different location and just no one's treating that like an ice cream cake and like that's what they sell at Baskin Robbins, right? It's an ice cream cake with ice cream that melts. I just, can you explain that? This is what you're here for.

Just the hard-hitting questions about storytelling logic. I'm just like, did they go to a different- This is what stays the same, Amanda, your inquisitive mind. Well, did they go to a different realm where like ice cream doesn't melt or something? We're not sure yet. Okay. To be determined in the future. In 100 meters, turn right.

Actually, no. Turn left. There's some awesome new breakfast wraps at McDonald's. Really? Yeah. There's the sausage, bacon, and egg. A crispy seasoned chicken one. Mmm.

A spicy end egg. Worth the detour. They sound amazing. Bet they taste amazing, too. Wish I had a mouth. Take your morning into a delicious new direction with You know, it was the great Derek Thompson who made mention of this on the Bill Simmons podcast this week. I thought it was an interesting note. Last year, we obviously had two huge movies in Top Gun Maverick and Avatar the Way of Water. We did have a few Marvel movies as well. We had a handful of significant franchise

films that did okay at the box office. And the truth is, is that the MCU has been doing okay at the box office by their own standards. We haven't had a billion dollar MCU movie since Spider-Man No Way Home. Now that was one of the biggest movies of all time. But since then, it's down. That was like 14 months ago.

Yeah, it was. It did really well. But there were many movies in succession that were happening across 18, 19, 21. I hear you. There was a stretch there

where Marvel took over the movies in many, many ways. And there's a lot of downside to that as we've talked about on the show many times. But Multiverse of Madness being one of the most hyped movies in the history of the MCU and then not breaking a billion dollars is a notable story.

And these movies, the movie calendar has essentially carved out space so that a movie like Quantumania has a lot of room to move for two weeks or three weeks before Creed 3 comes along. The same is true for Guardians 3 when it comes out in May. It's going to be like, it's going to be Fast X and then it's going to be Guardians 3 and that's going to own the entire month of May. As it should, baby rocket. Just can't wait. I am looking forward to Guardians 3, but that's a whole other podcast. I'm going on vacation, but anyway. So Mal, you and I can reconvene when that movie is released. I can't wait I am looking forward to Guardians 3 me too but that's a whole other podcast

I'm going on vacation but anyway so Mal you and I can reconvene I can't wait when that movie is released I guess I'm curious

for both of your perspectives on this because I'm sure that they diverge somewhat but the movie business's reliance on Marvel is

very complicated and I think ultimately a net negative even if you love the movies I do feel like there is a bit of a retraction happening at the moment now you know for you do you sense that do you feel like the introduction of Kang will revive it and we'll kind of be back to normal is it you know a COVID hangover thing where more people are going to go to the movies for these kinds of events like

what's your gloss on this at the moment I don don't know. I do think that the COVID, the pandemic era aspect, makes it difficult to assess something like the Doctor Strange numbers in a vacuum. You know, it just wasn't the same moment for theater going as Phase 3 films. I think that there is what feels like a palpable diminishment and excitement, though, about Marvel movies. And that's a huge bummer to me. And again, I didn't personally feel that about Phase 4. I felt it around me. I wonder how long that will continue.

And when I look at the slate this year, I was really excited for this movie. Really excited for this movie. And I'm really excited for Guardians Volume 3, though I think that I have a very hard time imagining that's not a great movie. Just a very hard time imagining that's not a great movie. I'll be so bummed if that's not a great and very emotionally rewarding movie. And then, of course, we have, that's May, and then we have the Marvels in July. And that's it for the year for Marvel. And currently no TV shows have dates.

None of them. And Devin Kogan at EW had a great, really long and expansive interview with Kevin Feige this week, which I would encourage people to read. He actually shared quite a bit, you know, about it. Sort of. It's like the Fantastic Four is going to be a big pillar of the MCU going forward. No shit. Of course. Of course. Adam Driver's Reed Richards will be top-lining. Did he reveal that? No?

No casting reveal. So he said there would be information soon. But one of the things that he did say outright was that they would be slowing down the TV show releases. Giving each of them more time on their own to draw people, not putting as many out in the course of one year, not putting them out as close together, et cetera. And that's a big correction coming off of Phase 4 without question. So if you look at the Phase 5 movies, Quantumania, Guardians, The Marvels, and then heading into next year, Captain America, New World Order. I mean, Harrison Ford is.

The president. I saw that. Who is Captain America now? Sam. Sam. Falcon. Anthony Mackie. Okay, thank you.

Thank you. That'll be great. Congratulations to him. And then Thunderbolts and Blade. Now, Blade, I think everyone's very hyped for. Are they, though? I am. Thunderbolts being the big team-up movie

of Phase 5 is like, we're really working toward Phase 6. We are working toward Fantastic Four, Kang Dynasty, Secret Wars.

This is kind of like Build Back Better. You know, like there's a little bit of like, just wait until 2024 when we get to do, like Blade is a good example.

Mahershala Ali's been cast as Blade. Another person who I'm like, we'll watch him in anything. Absolutely. One of my favorite actors. Yeah. That movie is going through a page one rewrite

and lost its director completely and has a brand new director because there is a machine-like quality to the MCU. And the vibes are not good on that project right now. Like if you know anything about how this stuff works, that's not ideal when you had a star, a two-time Oscar-winning star attached to your movie.

It was about to go into production, and then they stopped and ripped the script up and started again. That stuff is concerning. The fact that we get Blade, the fact that we get Mahershala, the fact that we're getting

more Marvel horror and that genre variance is exciting and cool. And I think an important part of fending off that quality of everything starting to feel the same, not every Marvel movie or TV show should connect to the multiverse or will I agree so that would be nice but but yes so to answer your question in terms of the actual slate and what

the excitement is I guess mileage may vary fan to fan in terms of Kang I do think there will be a lot of excitement coming out of this movie about Kang I think there was a ton coming out of Loki and that will that will happen again here he's just so magnetic and electric in the role and the idea of getting to see him play so many different versions of that character is like thrilling what's not to be excited about on that front so Marvel movies are on 4,000 screens every time they come out and obviously that has hurt a kind of variant in the business which is to say dramas for adults, comedies for teenagers, romantic comedies, thrillers. We don't get as many of those because we've moved towards a more franchise-oriented theatrical movie environment.

Things are already shifting. Most of the streamers now realize the error of their ways the last five years and are starting to move things back into theaters. We just saw Magic Mike's Last Dance, which frankly did not have a very strong theatrical performance. However, it wasn't even going to be in theaters as recently as 18 months ago. So from your perspective, will it be like a soft recession for superhero movies, or do you think they're actually going to come roaring back? Both, probably.

I can't ever be what it was because in the same way that movies are no longer, I mean, they're certainly no longer at the center of the culture as they were in the nineties, as we talk about on literally every podcast, but also in the last five years, right. For a number of reasons, having to do with pandemic, having to do with audience behaviors, like just like people don't go to the, to the theater, to the movies with the same frequency that they did, even like when end game came out. Um, So that's changing a little bit. And then I just don't think that you can maintain the level of broadness, broad audience appeal that Phase, I'm going to get my Phases wrong, but that that Infinity Wars to Endgame run had. Like people just can't keep up for that long. It's just sort of like a time and momentum thing

at some point the average person so I I think it will be like all things in culture right now more involved for the people who are fans of it you know and it's so it's like not niche audiences I mean still millions of people still very, but like the people who care really care. And then everyone else will maybe dip in for a big one from time to time, which is true of like literally how everything works, whether it's a TV show, you know, books, music, anything. So is that a recession to you? I don't know. I think that's just sort of an adjustment as like the life phase, you know, the life cycle of this goes on. I'm very curious to see even how this film performs

with such bad reviews because in general, these movies are immune to that sort of a thing and their box office, even their worst performing films

are still, would be considered successes by virtually any metric. But over time, atrophy is real right like that you can feel the wear and tear

on the franchise and I think you're right Mallory that there was there's just been some exhaustion and some like loss of trust honestly I think that that's a thing that happens over time

with franchises where you're like like I'll think about this way Star Wars comes out in 1977 there's only three films there's a holiday special

there's a couple of ancillary things, cartoons. But it's just the three movies and then nothing for like 20 years. There are novelizations and comic books and things, but no movies for what, 17 years? It was a long time. And that

made us hunger for it more and want it more. And that desire, that hunger for Marvel, it's gone. We don't need it because it's in your face nonstop. And that's true of everything that we get now because there's this desire to capitalize on serialization. At some point, the well runs dry. It could be 10 years from now. It could be 25 years from now.

But its endgame era is unsustainable. I'm just curious if it's starting sooner than we thought. So this is the 31st Marvel movie. Whew! 31st. First of Phase 5, 31st overall. And in addition to that,

there were eight TV shows in Phase 4. And I'm just talking about the MCU proper, so not like the Netflix shows that have been brought over. Eight.

Yeah. I believe. Let's see. WandaVision, Falcon, Winter Soldier, Loki, What If, Hawkeye, Moon Knight, Ms. Marvel, She-Hulk. Eight. That's I believe. Let's see. WandaVision, Falcon, Winter Soldier, Loki, What If, Hawkeye, Moon Knight, Ms. Marvel, She-Hulk. Eight. That's a lot of content in a short span of time. To me, it's delightful to get to soak up that much of it. I think the well's going to run dry

concern. I don't worry about that because if you look at the history of Marvel comics and the depth and wealth of character sets and storytelling, like the MCU has yet to do Fantastic Four and X-Men. We're going to be fine. The MCU is going to be fine. But I think this is where the collective conversation feels like it maybe is out of step with that eventual spark reigniting because and i guess this is just human nature but this is where i get back to what i said earlier like i think what you said amanda about infinity war in any game and the run-up to that is is really right and important like there's a rarity to what they pulled off there that is genuinely historic and uncommon. And that's why it's not the thing that we should be comparing the current stretch of Marvel to.

Endgame was the culmination of a decade plus of storytelling. If you look back at phase one of Marvel, which I have a lot of affection for, Iron Man was the last movie I saw with my friends in college before we graduated. I'm like, this was when my adult life began. Iron Man, great movie. What's the second MCU movie? The Incredible Hulk. What's the third? Iron Man 2.

What's the first movie of Phase 2? Iron Man 3. What's the second? Thor The Dark World. These are not beloved movies. They just aren't. And there's a real, I think, recency bias instead of primacy bias with the MCU. And I don't know that it should just be one or the other. Of course, our measuring stick

is going to be the thing we most recently consumed. But I think the more appropriate comps for a lot of the recent stories are the intro, like, Spider-Man Homecoming, Doctor Strange. Those are the movies that establish new characters, or even the earlier, building out of the Avengers in the first place. So I don't know that that's a reasonable thing to ask of people. And I think the question of what do people want out of a Marvel movie now, again, I don't think there's one answer to that.

It varies for every person, probably. It's a fascinating thing. We'll be tracking it closely on the podcast to find out can you give me one highlight from uh and man and the wasp quantum mania something you enjoyed is this before yes or okay um how could you just give away the next segment oh sorry okay cut that bobby um okay i'm not gonna cut it all the way i'll just bleep it so that people can really hear the live producing going on one thing that i enjoyed well i already talked about the baskin robbins and the book stuff was funny. Oh, you know what I really enjoyed?

Michael Douglas, who is almost 80 years old. And I did spend, he gets a lot of close-ups of him just like on a green screen set, just like looking purposeful as he has to like, you know, drive a weird plane with his hands. Yeah, his Play-Doh driving hands. Or has to stride with a lot of ants and i thought to myself more than once about how many times i've seen michael douglas have sex on screen i kept thinking about that too and now like and and how powerful it was and like now this is what's happening and i'm not even mad because he gets a laser you know and he looks great and he gives those ants purpose. Did have to turn to Sean at one point and be like, what's up with him and the ants?

Which is just a separate. I know. It's a whole thing. But that's. That's the whole premise of the film. This is the Ant Man franchise. He's Hank Pym. He's the reason we're all here.

Oh, no. Right. I mean, I knew that. But I was just kind of like, I, you know. Oh, boy. Yeah, that's fine. It's the rare case where the weight and charismatic history of an actor overwhelms actually a very charismatic character in the history of Marvel. I mean, Hank Pym is a very, very important character.

And he, you know, Scott is like the second Ant-Man. That's the whole thing with the story. He's not the original guy who came up with all the science michael douglas came up with everything yeah he was the inventor and he's i think he's a part of the original avengers and and and the pym particle is such a historic achievement inside of the canon that nobody can replicate it okay this is one of the great things about... Would you compare him to Elon Musk? Well, Hank is a... Pivot, pivot, pivot, Mal, pivot. Hank is actually

kind of a fraught figure in some ways, so... That's true. I really wanted a moment where Kang was like, because, you know, everything we learned about the core, the core of his ship

that Janet blew up, destroyed with the P the core, the core of his ship that Janet blew up, destroyed with the Pym particles, and he needs these particles to restore the core. It's like one more time in the MCU that we are reminded that only Hank Pym has been able to make this Pym particle.

I was thinking back to the time ice. It's like, we got to go all the way back to Jersey to get more Pym particles. Can't make more on our own, even though Tony Stark just solved time ice. It's like we got to go all the way back to Jersey to get more Pym Particles. Can't make more on our own, even though Tony Stark just solved time travel. Incredible stuff. And yet another example of like a MacGuffin-y, you know, there's one thing that needs to be fixed or captured or rescued. Like structurally in the movie, it hits all the same beats and all the same like big, messy CGI fight in the third act. Like all that's, I'm kind of forgiving stuff that I messy CGI fight in the third act. Like all that's

I'm kind of forgiving stuff that I have heavily criticized in the past in these movies. It does have all of those same trappings and I don't love those. Yeah, like I was thinking

about all of his sex scenes because I didn't care about like whatever the ants were fighting, you know? Understood. I love the ants in the Ant-Man movies.

Do you remember Antony and how tragic it was when he was killed? No, I don't. Well, I do. I mourn him to this day. There were a lot of different types of ants in this movie. Yeah.

The Mallory Amanda energy I forgot. It's very special. I feel like I'm witness to something unique. One of my faves. I love Mallory. I don't know what she's talking about a majority of the time. But I understand her on a deeper level. But her gaze is unbroken.

You know, like, you don't flinch. I love it. Like, Amanda's looking at you like you are an aunt. And she, and you are just... The highest praise.

They work together. They're part of a community. They build together. They're team-oriented. Also, in this film, we learned from Michael Douglas in a truly astounding stretch that they went through time dilation and advanced to quite a large size.

Yeah, the impossible, not only size, but level of scientific advancement. Can I say one more thing? I know we're in the highlights section, but on the size front. One of the great things about the first couple movies is the contrast of real world objects with the shrinking and the growing. In the quantum realm, you lose the context. It's a great point. I had absolutely no sense of who was what size at any given point. It's like, you're huge, are you? It's like, you know, when you do a picture on Instagram and you just got to put like a book there or whatever, or a hand for, I could have used that. The CGI really screws that up. I agree with Amanda, though,

that Michael Douglas was one of the highlights. And more broadly, I think Michelle Pfeiffer and Michael Douglas, Hank and Janet, every time she called him Henry, I loved it. Without question, we as the viewing public who have devoted hours,

dare I say decades of our lives, to consuming and loving Marvel deserve, deserve the five-hour version of the two-minute conversation we got in this movie about all the other people that Janet and Hank had fucked when Janet was in the Quantum Realm. That was outstanding. Here's my pitch. Linda, I want to know everything about Linda. Here's my pitch. Ant-Man 4 is just Michael Douglas, Michelle Pfeiffer, and Bill Murray reenacting fatal attraction in whatever universe that you want. Amanda, if Scott and Hope had gotten stuck in the quantum realm at the end of the movie, as we, I think, all thought they were about to, but then... Then they weren't? Then I had some questions about that were about to, but then they weren't. Did it?

I had some questions about that. Maybe we would have gotten that. Yeah. Wow. Just incredible energy on this pod right now. Janet Pink, just remarkable. Loved him. Linda.

I want to just give a shout out to Paul Rudd, whose name we've barely said. Oh, yeah. He's really good. I love Paul Rudd. I love seeing him in a movie. He's great as Scott. He is not in the movie for long stretches of time, which is, I think, a challenge of this movie. I agree with you, Mallory. It's a very fair point. But every time

he's on screen, he leavens everything with his tone and he feels very comfortable, I think, with what Peyton Reed is trying to do with these movies, which is to bring a comic sensibility to very heavy stakes. The moment where he realizes he now has to pay $12 for a coffee in San Francisco because his buddy Ruben, the barista, has realized that he is not, in fact, Spider-Man. Wonderful. Amazing. Delightful.

Like the best part of this franchise. I just missed more moments like that. I did. I get it. I'm very sorry to say. As a conclusion here, we're introducing a new segment. This segment's been much teased on this podcast. As Amanda has evolved into a mother and a great thinker, she's gotten more interested

in all sorts of realms. And so this will be our first installment of Amanda's Science Corner. Welcome to Amanda Dobbins' Science Corner. our first installment of amanda science corner welcome to amanda dobbins's science corner this is a jam wow what a banger this is what i do now this is my job just finding good songs and music libraries oh i like the great vibes. Okay. Wow, this will be making my Spotify rap. So we teased part one of this. And this is more like applied science than theoretical. But we'll start with the aforementioned MODOK.

I wish everyone could see your face so did i get the um the abbreviation is that how it's spelled in the dark it's spelled sure and what does it stand for sean a mechanized organism designed only for killing right so they say that sentence or that that string of words in the movie at some point. And a large group of people started cheering in the movie. And I turned to Sean and I said, why are they cheering? And he's like, so that means that MODOK is coming. And I said, you know, blank face.

And he was like, that's a very big deal in the Marvel world. And then Corey Stoll shows up in flashback for a minute and then cory stole who was one of the stars of the first and man movie yellow jacket portrayed yellow jacket it's also one of our great actors love cory stole and then a figure that is a incredibly large smushed head with baby arms and legs and baby teeth. Also, the head is enlarged, but the teeth are really small. Shows up and is like, I'm MODOK and I kill people or whatever. The ultimate killing machine. And I spent the rest of the movie being like,

were you making a joke to me when you were like, this is a really important Marvel character or is this like a real thing that people have invested? Like, am I like, I was just like, is the joke on me? But also it was very funny. I have some follow-up questions about MODOK. Do you want to answer that? Is he a big deal? Well, MODOK is simultaneously

a very humorous and ridiculous character, but also a kind of historical legacy character in the Marvel storytelling, and was recently featured in an animated series on Hulu last year that starred Patton Oswalt who gave a very funny performance as MODOK. What are some of MODOK's enduring legacies?

Trying to destroy everything and constantly being stymied. I mean, that's kind of like his ethic. You know, he's kind of like a ne'er-do-well loser villain. Right.

Just to be clear, not Darren Cross. He's not the Corey Stoll character from the Ant-Man movie, so that was a decision that they made. Oh, okay. But in the movie, he is. Yes. He is Darren Cross, a.k.a. Corey Stoll. So that was a decision that they made oh okay but in the movie

he is yes he is Darren Cross aka Corey Stoll so that was a surprise for people okay so should we do the movie making science or biology and engineering science this is your segment

okay so since we're on the Corey Stoll subject movie making science so like how's Corey Stoll recording this is he like facetiming it and then they're just like distorting the FaceTime because that's what it looked like. I suspect he was on set. Do you think when he was cast in Ant-Man 1 that they told him he would get to be MODOK?

Do not. Certainly not. Okay. Absolutely not. Do you think that when Corey Stoll got the call, he knew who MODOK was? No. Do you think that Corey Stoll worked on the character development of modak in any way a million percent okay all right that's great that's because that's what you want okay engineering and

biology science so is modak a human being yes then george tarleton a member of aim are you familiar with aim we don't really have time to get into aim. No, if not, just go with it. But it was a man, a person, forlorn, and there's experimentation that is in essence meant to soup his intelligence, which has the literal side effect of

enlarging his brain and his head. Then he's got to move around on this hover chair, this doomsday chair, and kill people with his tiny baby legs and huge head. Okay. And some lasers that they gave him. Are the lasers part of his enhanced ability, or is it just a suit? It's just a suit.

It's just weapons. Okay. So the mechanization is not of the human body, but of... Well, the mechanization helps him move around. Okay, got it. Like it helps him fly around. Otherwise, he would be dragging his head with his little baby arms and legs. Right.

Which is ridiculous. It's absurd. That is sort of a through line across the character set of the movies where there's a lot of intelligence and then scientific advancement that leads to tech that makes these characters superheroes or supervillains. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Why didn't his teeth grow too? I don't even remember his teeth being small.

They were really small. It was really creepy. It looked like one of those, there's like a specific meme with like tiny baby teeth, like maybe on a pizza or something. Do you know what I'm talking about? Absolutely not. Oh my God.

Horrifying. Baby teeth on a pizza or something. Do you know what I'm talking about? Absolutely not. Oh my God. Horrifying. Baby teeth on a pizza. Why? They've used an effect to make his face look like it's in a Busta Rhymes video. You know, like an elongated, almost like a fisheye lens

in reverse on his head. And it's very upsetting to look at. Yeah. He looks very unwell. And yet it's played purely like for comic intent and works really I thought it was great.

I loved Moe. I was laughing at all of it and at some point like I was laughing then Sean was laughing because I was laughing and then we were like giggling but when he

spoiler alert dies and is like at least I was an Avenger and then Paul Rudd is like you're in like you made it. That was really good.

That was great. I thought that was like good in-man energy and a good use of Paul Rudd. I thought that was fun. I agree with you, Amanda. I enjoyed MODOK. I loved MODOK. I feel like we learned a lot about MODOK's biology with this thus far. We got the tush cam there. What do you think Corey Stoll is doing with this money?

Like, what can MODOK money buy you? Like a new bathroom? Sleepless nights in Ibiza. Like, wow. Just crushing in the club. That sounds great. Yeah, that's my guess. I don't know.

Okay. It's just DMT for seven days straight. Now I'm happy and envious of Corey Stoll. He also got a catchphrase. You know, he got a slogan. What is it? It's never too late to stop being a dick. Oh, that was funny.

That was good. Wonderful stuff. Like, when he comes back at the end and yells at Ives, like, one too many. You pushed the joke a little too hard. But then they made it back with his dad. There were a lot of recurring patterns to the MODOK humor. Like, we get multiple moments where characters get to see him and realize that this is Darren Cross. This is Yellow Jacket.

And that was a delight. Oh, that was funny when he's like on the little headphone or whatever. And Paul Rudd keeps being like, Darren, Darren. And then he's like, MODOK. Only response to MODOK. Yeah, it was good. I thought that was funny. Okay.

So that was applied sciences. So now we're getting into some theoretical stuff. Okay. And this is more of like an open question session. You know, I'm not the teacher here. I'm the student. I'd like to start with what is the quantum realm? Like, what is it?

Is it another dimension? And, okay, so because at some point, as Mallory mentioned, you do meet all of the different kings and the different universes, and it's, or the timelines, I should say. But they're presented as something, like the quantum realm is not a timeline. They exiled this king to the quantum realm. Right, but so is it like the underworld of a, like what? It's a tiny universe.

It's the microverse. Okay. Is the microverse. Okay. Is the term in the comics. Quantum Realm is the... Quantumverse in some comics too, but Quantum Realm is like the MCU lingo for this subatomic dimension. But Quantum Realm has always been

a part of the Ant-Man franchise. And we get a little bit of exposure in the first film. And it's a big part of the second movie because they have to go into the Quantum Realm to rescue Janet, to pull Janet out. We hear many times in this movie that Janet had been down there for 30 years.

That's like the real world timeline because as you will no doubt recall, Amanda, when Scott Lang in Avengers Endgame, when a rat pushes a button, thank you to that rat, still to this day, that rat, the true hero of the Infinity Saga, and Scott Lang emerges from the quantum realm, he's like, what the fuck happened here?

Because for me, this was five years for everyone else. For me, it was five hours. So we learn a bunch of things about the quantum realm in earlier films. Time moves differently down there. You experience time differently. Janet had to go subatomic because the regulator on Hank's suit was broken way back when. Had to go subatomic to shrink into the particles to blow up a bomb and save the world. And then got lost in the quantum realm in the end of the first ant-man movie scott briefly goes into the quantum realm this allows hank to think that he can maybe find janet again darren has been down there this whole time this is where kang was exiled to because it's like okay right right right so okay so all of the timelines are in our this universe so is the time like how do the timelines relate okay the realms i i will say that i think this is and i'm i'm not just being nice to you i mean this sincerely i think this

is a genuine point of confusion for people right now at the mcu and there's i don't know that i have the perfect answer but there are there are multiple different aspects to this. So in the early stretches of the MCU, we got exposed to a lot of different dimensions. Think of the mirror dimension from Doctor Strange. The quantum realm is a dimension.

Do you believe that time is a dimension? I heard your discussion on this. No, but where are you on this? You're telling me about dimensions. I enjoyed your real-time Googling and reading of search results genuinely enjoyed it

let me put it this way is time a dimension in the MCU yes I don't would you guys mind if I just interrupted this conversation briefly

I'd like to make a statement this is the culmination of my career I've somehow managed at this extraordinary technological company that we work for you told me to do for to get two of my closest friends and colleagues into a room together to talk earnestly about the scientific implications of what Jack Kirby and Stan Lee cooked up when they were smoked out on grass in 1972. We're having a blast.

The culmination of my career was when you sang Pinocchio to Amanda. And I got to listen to it while stuck in traffic on the 101. I was thinking of taking up a full-time singing career. I think you should. We would support you and encourage you. But only songs from Guillermo del Toro's Pinocchio. We would support you in any timeline or universe or dimension, which is all of them. So when we talk about the multiverse, we're talking about different universes.

There are some helpful visuals, right? So think of Earth 616, the primary Earth. You know, in Doctor Strange, they go to a different Earth. It's a different universe inside of Doctor Strange. Okay, well, remember when I was so excited that Rachel McAdams was in the stinger for the next one?

And I was like, oh, Rachel McAdams, I love her. Well, take the MCU out of it. Right here, right now. This is Earth 1. We're recording this podcast here. I thought this was Earth 616. Let's just call it Earth 1 to simplify it

for the purposes of this conversation. We're on Earth 1 right here. She's been listening. We're recording this pod. This is the MCU she has. She's hanging on every word and I love it.

There's an Earth 2 somewhere else where three versions of us This is very human-centric. on Earth 2. You know, like, how do we not know if there aren't many other how many

like well okay go ahead well glad you're anticipating what you're going to say timelines there's also the timeline aspect so loki is very much about timelines and the idea of the sacred timeline which is what he who remains, one of the Nathaniel Richards Kang variants, it has created the TVA to preserve and protect. I have to be honest, the sacred timeline, we're starting to get into some... Amanda, we blew up the sacred timeline

in the Loki finale. Okay, good. And it split, it fractured. Now we have the possibility of multiversal war again okay but he who remains would have you think that's a bad thing i would have you think it's a good thing because it means that there are versions of us everywhere and they have free will who is loki and loki he is a variant who caused a nexus event meaning he branched off he did a thing that he wasn't supposed to do

in the sacred timeline and he created a new branch. The TVA would prune those branches to preserve the sacred timeline, which means in essence, they would eliminate all of those different life forms. Right.

And those realities. Yeah. Because that is what he who remains wanted and he would have you, you being Loki, you being Sylvie, you being Amanda Dobbbins believe that that was pure and good because the scarier thing was what kang the conqueror was going to do or what a mortis might do or what scarlet centurion might do or what victor timely might do and i would tell you that the dimensions the universes the timelines

it's all part of the great stew. That's what quantum mechanics is. And you as a scientist know that. Right. But like, if he's just going around destroying everything, but then there's always another timeline, then can't he always undo his destruction, you know, of the next thing? And isn't there a timeline in which other people can figure it out and we gotta hook up uh amanda with michael waldron i think just get them in a room together

where can amanda take the mcu from here i'm just sort of like but you know at some point it like i did actually think ant-man you know when all the ants want the same thing and then he's climbing on them you know like and then there's the baskin robbins guy which i thought was funny but and it's just too infinity but like there are infinity possibilities of infinity like infinity we can't wrap our heads around so like no one can be making these sorts of decisions ultimately but kang is trying to yeah but he's gonna lose every time and then he's well but does it because then you can just always redo it and he can redo it or someone else can redo it

all of them or they magically open up the portal again for no reason all of those versions of all of those versions of Nathaniel Richards all those Kang variants we saw in the the singer that you saw. Who have exiled this king. This conqueror. This scary prime version. This intergalactic. What is this exiling this guy? They sent him to the quantum realm. Sure.

So that he can't do his conquering anymore. But that's what I don't understand. Like, what is it? Like, he can get out of every other problem. How can he not get out of this one? Well, he couldn't because the core of his ship broke and that's what he and janet were trying to fix and that she touched the ship and saw into his mind because it was a neural powered ship which i thought was pretty cool that was neat it was a little bit of a storytelling hack but okay

carter knew a telepath for one minute and then she realized the error of her ways i have some notes on that but she wasn't a telepath it was minute and then she realized the error of her ways. I have some notes on that. But she wasn't a telepath. It was that the ship was on his mind. I realize that, but it like imbued a character with a power that like,

is that a thing? Well, I actually... A ship could be neurologically... Anyway. I actually thought that that stuff between Kang and Janet,

I wanted more of that with Kang and Scott. I wanted more of the... The way that he appealed to Janet, let me help you get this time back, which was very much how the trailer framed what he was going to pitch to Scott. We got like a couple lines, you know, I like you have like lost a lot of time. And then at the end, like you could have gone home again, but it was really like,

I'm going to kill your daughter if you don't go get my core for me. And more of the philosophical, existential, what is time? How do you think about your choices and who you are and what choices other versions of you might make and what any of it means? If you've seen the end of time, if you've seen all of time, though I will note that in Loki, they say that the end of time is still being written. Yeah, that's beautiful.

Do you know what chronopolis is? Here's what I don't understand. I'm just like, I don't understand i'm just like i don't understand how the rest of time and space and our various like cosmoses are so porous and then there's just this one place the quantiverse where it's just like well we trapped him he can't get out well this is the threat of incursions right like amanda asks a big broad sweeping question about fake science and you answer very earnestly with real science in the fake science world that you think you understand universe is crashing into each other one the only way to save your universe amanda earth 616 or earth

one that we've built here together today is are you willing to destroy Earth 2 to save Earth 1? Ask yourself that. No. I can't say that in public. Then you're not Kang and or God Emperor Doom. So that's pertinent. That's positive. That's good for all of us.

Fortunately, I am God Emperor Doom of this pod. I think we have to wrap up Science Corner. What'd you think about the inaugural edition? I think we asked a lot of Science Corner. Okay. What'd you think about the inaugural edition? I think we asked a lot of important questions. Did we answer them? You didn't ask any science questions about drinking the ooze or about Broccoli Guy, though. I thought that might come up. Broccoli Guy just seemed real horny.

That was weird. Yeah, I loved it. That was funny. I thought that was great. If you were a telepath and your forehead glowed when you were reading someone's mind, would you wear a hat so they didn't know you were that's a good idea yeah but like a hat that goes over your forehead would you want to be a cowboy hat would you want that quaz this is the william jackson harper's character uh would i want to be a telepath absolutely not seems like an unbearable burden i agree it seems completely debilitating i already one, so I can't really answer that question.

Bobby, do you want to be a telepath? You've activated your camera. I don't. However, I think that it would be unethical to cover up your glowing head. Clearly, whatever powers that be out there wanted the world to know when you were reading their minds.

So if you cover it, that's shady behavior. Bobby, you're so pure of heart. Yeah. According to me. According to me. All right. If I knew someone in my life

who could read my mind and they didn't tell me, I'd be pretty fucking pissed at that person yeah i would wear a hat i would i would pursue the thoughts of every person why do they need to be so small who the ant-man and the wasp that's their powers the the suit can they have particles they can shrink and they can grow when they, it creates a force of might. There we go. That's some science. It's actual physics.

It is. Oh, absolutely. That was fun when Scott was like, he didn't want Cassie to have a suit. He didn't want her to be meddling in this dangerous business, despite having no idea that she was up to it. And despite Janet never telling her family about Kang the Conqueror. Weird. If I were growing pizza over dinner with my family overnight, I would have mentioned Kang. But that's just me. And yet, in the moment of the action, when the stakes were high, he was like, let me tell you how momentum works. How you turn yourself

into a little speeding bullet when you attack. And that was sweet and lovely. That's cool. This is basically like a STEM movie. You know, STEM for girls. I support that. Will you be educating Alice in the STEM fields? It reminds me a lot of trying to instruct Alice in the ways of walking like a human being. Where I'm like, you do it like this. And she's like, get off me. I'll do whatever I want. That's what it's about, raising a child, you know?

She's like, Cassie's like, I got this. I got a suit. I'm going to figure out how to fight for myself. Do you think you would know if Alice had been in jail multiple times? She has, actually, unfortunately. Particularly if you, yourself, had also been in jail multiple times. We won't be revealing that to her. No, I've never been arrested in my life, God willing. But Alice has been convicted of several felonies and we're trying to get that expunged from her record right now. She's 18 months old.

Hey, what an absolutely deranged podcast recorded with some of my closest colleagues. Mal, thank you. You'll be diving even deeper into this movie on the Rainverse. That's right. You and Joe

will probably not really getting to the core of the science of this movie the way that we did here. I will be seeing the movie again before recording the House of Art deep dive, which I am looking forward to.

I am available if you need me to come in and teach you and show. Yeah, we've got the music now. A crossover event. Exactly. So anytime. Bobby, let me ask you this.

A team up? Will you be seeing Ant-Man and the Wasp Quantumania? I intended to see it. It's the lukewarm reviews have made me less urgent about that. What about the most important review, which is me saying it rocked? Does that sway you at all?

If you want me to see it in my capacity as the producer of the Big Picture Podcast, I will see it. Yeah, sure. I like my job. I'm not sure I can push you forward on that. Bobby, thank you for your work as the producer on this episode. Of course. Amanda and I will be back on this show next week.

Van Lathan coming back on the show we're doing a deep dive we're getting wet with Avatar the Way of Water and Triangle of Sadness two movies that are both nominated for Best Picture that have more in common than one might think about the modern condition we'll see you then you