The Big Picture - ‘Avatar: Fire and Ash’ Burns Bright Before Flaming Out. Plus: Best Picture Power Rankings and the Oscar Short Lists!

Episode Date: December 19, 2025

Sean and Amanda start the show by reacting to the news that the Oscars broadcast will move to YouTube in 2029, and debate whether or not it’s a good move (1:48). Then, they react to the new trailer for Steven Spielberg’s science fiction film, ‘Disclosure Day’ starring Josh O’Connor and Emily Blunt (12:46). Next, they dive into one of the year’s most anticipated films with James Cameron’s blockbuster sequel ‘Avatar: Fire and Ash’. They celebrate its breathtaking action set pieces, criticize its slow pacing, which they felt dragged the movie down, and explain why it’s a real “you’re mileage may vary” type of movie (15:36). Finally, they cover the Oscars short list (43:45) and take stock of what’s rising and falling, before building their final Best Picture Power Rankings of 2025 (1:00:38). Hosts: Sean Fennessey and Amanda Dobbins Producers: Jack Sanders and Chris Thomas Shopping. Streaming. Celebrating. It’s on Prime. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

I'm Sean Fennacy. And this is the big picture of conversation show about Avatar, Fire, and Ash. Today on the show, we're headed back to Pandora as we dive into the depths of James Cameron's third avatar film Fire and Ash. We'll talk about how it stacks up to the previous installments. High frame rate filmmaking, Amanda. Good morning. Okay. Whether or not a Navi can be hot or sexually desirable.

Yeah. We'll talk about that. Cameron's Future with the Franchise. Will there be more of these movies? We shall see. We'll also check in on our Best Picture Power rankings because this is the last time we'll be discussing that in the year 2025. And this is a movie that may or may not make the cut.

We're also going to talk about the trailer for one of our most anticipated movies of 2026 and the Oscar shortlist. And we've just had some crazy news in the world of the big picture and the Academy Awards right after this. This episode of The Big Picture is presented by Amazon Prime. You know how in every great holiday movie, there's that last minute scramble to make it all come together? From gifts to hosting essentials,

Prime's fast shipping is always there for you during the holidays, especially when it's last minute and just can't wait. So if you need fast free delivery that saves the day, it's on Prime. Head to Amazon.com slash Prime to shop now. Okay, we're back. You're getting so good at your, like, local news. Tonight at 10 p.m. teaser. It's like, it's really coming through for you.

I know. My native broadcaster slash game show host has really popped recently, which is so great because we're all streaming now, baby, including the Academy Awards. The Academy Awards just announced the Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences that starting in 2029, they will be moving their telecast from ABC to YouTube. Yes. So we knew the rights were on the block.

And there were multiple bidders. Would it, you know, would ABC Disney pony up again? Would it be Netflix? Who's been making a real push into live events and dieballs and all sorts of new programming? Movie culture? Sure, yeah. And, or would it be YouTube? And, and here we are.

YouTube wins again. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. I think this is good. I have no problem with it. I think it's good. I think it's logical.

Yeah. I think it makes a tremendous amount of sense for the Academy Awards as we know them right now and probably for it's at least immediate future. And I think it's good for consumers. Yes. Who are going to be able to watch this show for free around the world. And I will emphasize around the world because, one, this telecast was not as clearly and easily available in England, Scotland. Scotland, Ireland, Australia, you know, a lot of English-speaking countries that would want to watch.

Obviously, in addition to that, the Academy has gotten so international in the last 10 years. And the Best Picture Race has gotten so international. Right now, my gut tells me there's going to be three, maybe even four foreign language nominees for Best Picture this year. Yes. It stands to reason that this becoming the World Historical Movie Awards year by year, which it was not really for being honest in the past. but it has becoming that. It makes sense that around the world you'd want to have easy access to this show

in one centralized space. This deal makes that so. Yes. I am also okay with it. I mean, I do think user-wise, and I tend to think more in terms of consumption of an American audience, because that's like what we've been talking about.

But I even think for an American audience, this will be easier and is meeting the audience where it is. And, you know, we've talked a lot about the YouTube threat to the movies writ large, or really to everyone else. It's like because are people like watching things on YouTube like us right now, I guess, and or are they watching things on TV or in movie theaters? And I don't really care whether people are watching the Oscars on linear TV versus YouTube. And it's an interesting example of this is about movie culture. The Oscars are promoting movie culture, but it still was a TV show.

So I don't think you're threatening like the theatrical experience by putting the television show honoring movies that used to be watched on ABC on a place where more people can find it. I think it's actually an instance of making movie culture more available to people who might be interested in it. I think it also makes the Oscars as a brand a slightly more totalized. streaming experience in ways that are good and bad. The good, I'll cite here. One, you basically get to build out the Academy's YouTube presence, and then everything related to the Academy all lives in one place. And since the Academy becomes purely associated with YouTube, then when they're airing

the Governor's Ball, as they intend to, that might be more of an event for us to cover, to be a topic of conversation. And then when Tom Cruise gives that speech, it's not something that's happening in a ballroom in the middle of Los Angeles, and then the video will be posted 12 hours later. It's something that people might tune in to watch. All the red carpet coverage is going to end up on YouTube. That's a huge shift. Right.

That's a dramatic and fascinating thing. Obviously, places like E will still have access to it, but you're commodifying all of the apparatuses around the Academy Awards and around the Academy's history into this place. So, like, will the Oscar nominees luncheon be appearing on YouTube? Does that mean that that's something that we'll get to see instead of hear about from five to ten trade reporters? Probably. I would make the most hay out of those things that I probably could.

So you get all that. Now the bad is more of a kind of a cosmic things are different now, bad, I would say. That there is inevitably a kind of lowering of the prestige and specialness of the show by making it something that you almost have to watch on a device. You know, like obviously people will be watching it on televisions and we will too. But YouTube's association with a sort of like on-the-go short-form consumption versus this. this historically too long telecast, there's a bit of signal to noise there. You know, will you pop in and check out the Oscars and then tune out? I guess some people do that on the regular.

But, you know, it's less glamorous to be on YouTube. Let's be honest. Yeah, right now anyway, in 2025. But it's less glamorous to be on streaming. And what this is is just a confirmation of that, as you said, it's a streaming duopoly. And like, what's interesting in this, in addition to it being on YouTube is that Netflix, didn't get it. And that was like my first thought when I saw this.

What do you think that means? Since they're spending so much money right now, they have the actors awards, right? The actors awards. I'm sorry. It'll never not be funny to me. It's going to take a while for that one to sink in. I did remember it, thankfully. But, you know, they're getting involved in live awards programming.

They obviously have spent the last 10 years making awards films. Is it because that would be seen as a conflict of interest? I don't really think so because ABC was owned by Disney, which also had films. competed? No, I assume it was money. I assume that, you know, YouTube cut and Google cut a bigger check. Yeah. That's, um, agreed. You know, you do wonder a little bit whether there's a little bit of conscious, like, and also we would like to give this to YouTube in order to not give it to Netflix in order to not, you know, further the seeming monopoly on Hollywood that Netflix is expanding every day this morning. Yes. As we're recording, the Paramount bid was rejected by

Warner Brothers shareholders or No, the Warner Brothers Board Recommended to reject. Yeah, to reject. Which was expected. Yes. But it's, that seems to be entering closer towards Netflix.

So, you know, who will know, who, like, ever know if there was a, you know, a little bit of lean towards one offer or another? But I certainly thought of that. It does feel like the streaming wars are boiling down

to a death struggle between YouTube and Netflix. Obviously, there are plenty of other places that are going to draw eyeballs. Disney Plus is not going anywhere in the world or in my home. But these are really the two big competitors. And, you know, obviously, Instagram and TikTok have something to say about that too. But those are two platforms that are not in pursuit of things like the Academy Awards. Exactly. And so...

They are short form. Exactly. And in terms of longer, please actually watch this for more than five minutes. Yes. Yes. And I guess YouTube's gambit here is that this is just a huge advertising play, you know, and that time spent and the way that they'll be able to integrate advertising. And you know, that thing that we talked about earlier this week where it was like, why is the Oscars not just a way station for the premiere of every single new trailer? Well, that's already what YouTube is. On a daily basis, it's the place we go to to look at trailers and we will get to one momentarily. So this all feels very logical. Yeah. I wonder how it will integrate into YouTube TV and whether. it's part of like a strategic play though to look to yeah but like would they have their own channel you know i like we are a youtube tv we are as well household as well um but are they just going to then

like portal me over to right is this is are they trying to wean me off cable further by this how about this what if there was an oscar's channel on youtube tv oh wow you know i mean that's the kind of thing that you could do with these kinds of rights so it's a four-year license this starts at the 1001st Academy Awards, which means the 100th will be the last one on ABC television. Which just pure gut check. Just be real with me. Yeah. Are we there?

Will we be making this show? Oh. At the first ever YouTube Academy Awards. A lot of people you got to talk to about that one that aren't me right now. Let's see. Beatles movies. What year is that again? Forcemanage. So that's 2028? Yeah. So 2029 is the year that the Beatles movies would be eligible.

And I've said we got to hold on one way or another. But I'm going to have to get my business degree, you know? Yeah. And then a lot of. Yeah. That's coming very shortly. Maybe you can go to. You're taking the speed test, right? Yeah. It's the Kim Kardashian lawyer and business school at home. Okay. Great. And maybe I'll throw a JD in there as well. You know. just to really represent our interest fully. Uh-huh. But we have, I have said at least, that we got to hold on, at least through the Sam Mendy's Beatles movies. Like, hold on to our lives, like, or to this, this show?

Both. Okay. Well, we just need a place to put our feelings. Okay. You know, like, I haven't done this for as long as we've been doing this to not have a platform to talk about these four guys as Beatles and Sam Mendy's. making four movies. That makes me want to cancel the show so that you have to go on IG live when the movies come out and, like, respond to people asking questions for 17 hours.

Who says I won't do that anyway? You might do it regardless. But anyway, that's April 7, 2028, and they would be eligible for the first YouTube Oscars. Hosted by Joseph Quinn. That means those movies are going to be out less than a month after the 100th Academy Award. Okay. And in honor of that, I'll be watching all 100 telecasts consecutively. And I'm really excited about that.

And I'll be streaming it on Twitch. Any other thoughts on this? I mean, this is just tectonic news. It is huge news. The Earth under our feet is moving. Are you surprised? No, when you calm down, it's incredibly logical. Yeah.

I think I wasn't surprised. I was like, oh, they got it. Like, oh, you know, it's a little bit of, it's YouTube flexing and being like, yes, we are, in fact, YouTube. And you guys have all been in a panic about all your other little stuff and where your movies are going to go. And then here we are. I genuinely like that it is broadcast by a company that is not actually making movies. I think there is something coherent about that. And that's really never been the case.

So, anyway, I think it's a good thing. Yeah. All right. I mentioned trailers. Yes. We were trying to figure out last week with Joanna the name of the Steven Spielberg film. Was it Disclosure? And was it a remake of the Michael Crichton adaptation from the 1990s about sexual harassment in the workplace?

Was it Disclosure Day? It was in fact Disclosure Day. Yes. Trailer hit. This is in fact some kind of alien invasion thriller starring Emily Blunt and Josh O'Connor. What did you think of the trailer? Josh O'Connor forever. Put him at number three.

I enjoyed his S&L hosting. Oh, I didn't see any of that. I just watched some clips. It was just mostly him in sweaters or giggling, you know? Okay. That's nice. Just a big fan. Speaking of sweaters, I'm really sorry, but like, is this come to Garsohn's sweater new? Actually quite old.

It is. I just remembered I have it, yeah. But it's new in the rotation, right? I just was looking for another sweater. And I was like, excuse me, Sean, did we go shopping without me? Okay, thank you. We've never been shopping together. That's really not true.

And in fact, I picked up the Navy jacket, the barn jacket that you pick out all the time. I picked out for you. That's true. I brought it with me today. Yeah, no, I know. You're welcome. Anyway, pro-Josh O'Connor, pro-Steven Spielberg. I'm open to this.

I thought there was an absolutely thrilling trailer. Yeah. I am astonished that a 70-year-old man would make a movie this big. Keeps happening. Yeah. Ridley Scott did this twice with Gladiator 2 in the last duel. We just saw Martin Scorsese make Killers of the Flower Moon. This is a, you know, Francis Ford Coppola and Megalopoulos.

Yeah. This is a trend that is happening now. The film obviously is very much in the succession of stories like this that he has been making over the years from close encounters of the third kind to E.T. to War of the Worlds. The sound design of this trailer is incredible in terms of what is happening to Emily Blunt's voice in the opening moments. And I'm very excited. There are a few images that are CGI created that don't look good. I'll just be honest about that. There's one shot in particular near the end of the trailer where we see a young girl and I believe it's a moose.

Yeah. And a bird. And they are standing before a lit-up home. It looks a little bit more like a shot from Roberts and Mex is here than you want it to. It does. Or like an AI Hallmark card. So I didn't love that. But everything that was clearly practically done, for example, the car chase moment that they show us very briefly, it looks incredible.

So I'm hoping that it's more of that and less of the former. Okay. But I'm fired up. An original summer blockbuster about aliens from Steven Spielberg, June 12. Good stuff. Put it in the calendar. Okay. Do you think we'll be doing the podcast then?

Gosh, I hope so. I sure hope so. At Capital One, we're more than just a credit card company. We're people just like you who believe in the power of yes. Yes, yes to new opportunities, yes to second chances, yes to a fresh start. That's why we've helped over 4 million Canadians get access to a credit card, because at Capital One, we say yes, so you don't have to hear another no. What will you do with your yes?

Get the yes you've been waiting for at Capital One.ca.ca slash yes. Terms and conditions apply. Okay, speaking of Blockbusters, it's time to talk about Fire Nash. Okay. Now, this is interesting. So, new film directed by Cameron, of course, written by Cameron, Rick Jaffa, and Amanda Silver, shot by Russell Carpenter again. As always, the film stars Sam Worthington and Zoe Saldanya, Sigourney Weaver is back, Stephen Lang is back, Kate Winslet is back, introducing Una Chaplin, Jack Champion, is back in the movie. The log line for Fire and Ash is a year after settling in with the Metcena clan, Jake and Nateri's family grapples with grief after Netayem's

death. That's their son. They encounter a new aggressive Navi tribe, the Mangwan clan, also called the Ash people led by the fiery tribe leader Varang, who is allied with Jake's enemy Corrich as the conflict on Pandora escalates to devastating consequences.

Okay. Great, great summary. Those are great names. Did you write that yourself? I did not. Okay. Um, we saw this film together. We did. We saw this. I got there right on time. And you'd save me a seat, but we were sitting one row back from the whole ringerverse clan even though there were seats next to them

in their row in front and i wanted to ask you what that was about i was there before most of those people and i also thought that that whole row was taken and then so i had to save you a seat oh thank you but in fact it was not taken okay um i appreciate it was nothing against them i spent the entire 30 minutes that i was there before the movie started talking to van and joamy i mean as did i once I arrived, but I just, you know, so they were there, and they were with us but apart. Yeah, and they had a different experience watching the movie from you. Yeah. What did you think?

It's a no for me, dog. Like, it's respectfully, the experiment has run out, not here, okay, all right, let's be real. Let's respect Big Jim. Yes, for the first time ever, you're going to be honest on the podcast, finally. I've been waiting years for you to just speak your truth. James Cameron is a legend and good at making movies. And technically, I still think that these movies are incredible. And they look so much better than all the other CGI slop and all of the other, you know, animated, like the created worlds that we see on screen.

It is a completely different league. You watch a movie like this and then you get mad that you have to go back and watch a Marvel movie or. you know, Super Mario's, like, whatever. It just doesn't, there are, like, the technical craft achievement, it's undeniable. It looks really, really good. I do not care about these characters,

in part because I think this story is such a retread of the last one and so bogged down in its, and so infatuated with its own ideas that it loses, like, basic pacing and plotting and communication of who these people are. So in the end, it was just a big gym and all of his toys, computers, and guns together. And I just wasn't involved. Yeah, I think I share the same criticism, but that ultimately didn't, doesn't make me dislike the movie.

I think because I, the highs in this movie are so, incredibly high relative to any other blockbuster that's come out this year. Sure. That I was swayed often enough to come out liking it. I do not feel as positively about this movie as the way of water. Even though this movie might have higher highs, I don't think it's as complete a story as that movie was. And I completely agree with you about the very odd decisions in the script to just

reiterate and replay moments from the first film. In some cases, beat for beat, I don't, you know, we know that the movies were originally written to be one and they were split in half. We got to stop doing that. I agree. It's just that means that you haven't finished editing the one movie that you have. I mean, like, or the one script that you have. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I agree with you.

But what's so crazy about that is that, so does that mean if the films were together that they would feature together incidents repeating themselves, like particular sieges on ships that happened in the third. act of this film, which feel very similar to sieges on ships in the second Avatar film. No, I think, I mean, it would be that you have to make choices, you know, and that you aren't doing things again or doing it even bigger. And there are just really no, there are no choices, no cuts made in this movie. It's just like, let's do this again and let's do this again and let's do it bigger. Well, okay, so let me speak specifically. I think I said this to you and Mallory immediately after the film, that the film is a bit of a complex thing to digest

because it's three hours and 14 minutes. It's even longer than the last film, which was quite long as the listeners of our watch-along pod know. And you will get a high, high moment. And there's a high, high moment in the first act where the family, Natiri and Jake and their children are trying to leave the Metcayena clan and they're going to take these kind of like jellyfish dragons

that are transporting them around. And they're trying to get spider away from the Mekaina clan and away from Corridge being able to find them, his father, you know, who's been hunting for him since the second film. And there's a battle sequence with the ash people on these jellyfish dragons. I don't know what they're called. I apologize to those who know the lore and anthropology of the world of Pandora.

and it is just absolute 10 out of 10 Cameroonian mania. Like just really exciting action, great staging. It's all very coherent. So many movies like this, and maybe because so much of this work is done in post, but as you see in the materials like going behind the scenes, like they are actually using real rigs, real environments to design and execute on a lot of these sequences.

And then after that sequence, which is very dramatic, movies just slow down a lot and they really take their time letting the characters sit inside the sadness or the alienation or the isolation that they all experience. They all get kind of spread apart and then the film kind of sets out

to hopefully reunite the family over the course of the film. But he is really comfortable sitting in that anguish and the movie slows down a lot multiple times and it just kind of messes with the pacing. You know, it's just draggy. And there's just, there are also some logistical issues. I don't know where everyone is once they're all separated.

And I personally don't remember who all of the characters are with enough detail in order to, you know, you're figuring it out as you go along, but you separate all these people. Because you're not the racist. Yeah. You think they all look the same. That's so true. For a million dollars. Our friend Michael Asker sent us a tweet that was like, for a million dollars. can you name three of these people?

And you did, but it took you a little while. I was just busy. I wasn't able to respond to that quickly. My guy, Lowoc, huge movie for Lohok. Sure. For the Lohawk heads? Right. And for Pia Khan?

Redemption, I guess. Yeah. Though I honestly don't remember. Are they redeemed in the end? This is the thing. I just like, I don't remember what happens. I watched this movie. And because, like, they're all separated and they're...

Well, we saw it two weeks ago. Well, but they're also... There's not a lot of development. They all get put in different places. And the point is just they got to get back together and then fight a lot with guns. Well, I think one of the reasons why and one of the flaws of the movie to me is because there's more emphasis in this movie on Spider, who is the human who has become a kind of adopted member of the family who's played by Jack Champion and who is put in, I think, at a tough spot in this movie. Early on in the film, he's really in peril and he is revived in a kind of magical way by Kiri, the Sigourney Wee

character that's um you went to the bathroom for that yes but i'm aware that that happened yeah yeah but you like didn't really get the full like extent of what's going on but that's an it's an incredible sigourney weaver like pretending to have a navvy orgasm like it was it was unreal van in front of me was just like what is happening and then i like and i was like sitting in the aisle by myself being like i need someone it goes on and on and on because she connects to the spiritry I was in the bathroom for like 98 seconds. But it, experientially, it goes on for a while. And there's like a lot of swaying and you're like, what is happening?

What's wrong with a prolonged orgasm? Just that of curiosity? No, I think that that's great. I would remind you that Keri is like a teenager and it is Sigourney Waver. Yeah, but not the years. Like, how does that work developmentally? I'm not going to insert myself into that. So when you were, you know, she's a 70-year-old woman.

Like, it's okay. Right. No, that's true. And it's, I'm glad, you know, life goes on. Yeah. And women, you know, experience new sexual health at all ages. And that's really, really important, you know? I'm not done talking about Navi sex just for the record on this episode.

I've got a lot more on this. You know, we've made movement on paramedopause and menopause. Yes, we have. But it's just, there's a world and a life beyond. I'm getting ready to talk about Varang. Just wait for that. We will. We'll talk about it.

It's really long. And I still, this is another thing. Like, I don't understand the rules of the spirit tree. I don't feel that the logic and world of Pandora are effectively communicated to me. Cinema Sins Dobbins, concerned about the logic of Pandora. Well, I turned to you at the beginning of this movie. What did I ask you? I don't remember.

What did you say? I asked you if Pandora was real. Oh, yeah, that's right. And you were like, no, but what I was trying to ask. ask you was is Pandora real You were like is it a state of mind

or is it a real place in the universe of in the world of Avatar. Which if you step back and think about what your job is is an insane question

to ask having watched two films about the planet Pandora where all of the action takes place. I've told you that a lot of this this sci-fi

mumbo jumbo often goes over my head and I do often think that it's when it's when it is legibly and clearly stated and you can put, like, where I can put my arms, my brain around it, then I, like, I do think that's evidence of good storytelling.

But if it's too complicated or if it's just too, if it requires, like, too many flights of fancy, I do begin to fit, like, forget all the bits and bobs. I hear what you're saying. I think that these movies are very much a go-with-it experience and you kind of have to go with it. Very few people in their lives will be asked to speak for one hour consecutively about a movie they saw two weeks ago. We have a very odd job. But with that in mind, ironically, relative to what you're saying, these movies are very simple. You know, the plotting and the arcs are very simple.

It's like a father who wants to reunite with his son, another father grieving his son, the preservation of the ecology of this planet, you know, aquatic life and the mystery therein and how we protect that life. All these themes and ideas are all the same in all these movies. Yeah, but when you slow it down and stretch it out, you give people more time to be like, Like, okay, so why is she allowed to connect to the tree right now? You're right. What she can't before? Why can't they just connect to the tree all the time? Like, why is only she connecting to the tree?

Like, there's lots of room for question. Why is Hillary Clinton not working on this right now? Why is she not explaining to us the tree logic of Pandora? The Kate Winslet character is like not not Hillary Clinton-esque. She isn't, she's surprisingly not in the film very much. Yeah. I had been led to believe she was a significant part of this. series, and I would not describe it as such.

The person who is a significant part of this series is the actress Una Chaplin. Yeah. The granddaughter of Charlie Chaplin, perhaps best known for her work on Game of Thrones in the early seasons. I figured out what I knew her from, which was another, I spent another 10 minutes being like, what's she in, what's she in? But like at a respectful volume, we were in the back of the theater. And you didn't know. She was the wife on The Hour.

Oh, that's right. Yes, the Dominic West series, yes. And Romola Garai. She's a great actress. And she does something that I think really truly only Zoe Saldanya has been able to do, which is to become real in a way, to actually convey a kind of personality through the Navi. I think Sigourney Weaver does good work. Sam Worthington does good work in these movies.

Stephen Lang does good work. But Varang, who is the leader of the Ash people tribe, who, you know, for sort of like, I guess, classically domineering survivalist reasons, wants to be a. the only surviving Navi tribe attacks all of its I guess genealogical competitors

and so they are at this kind of war well didn't they get burned out of their home and so now they need other homes yes right but you know but it was sort of like a Prometheus type the fire we discovered the fire but then it ruined us and I was like I'm not really

sure what you're trying to stay here yes and then yeah then they've just become They're in pursuit of violent conflict Yeah And they're trying to

Take over as much of Pandora as they possibly can Even though they're a relatively small

tribe based on what we see Nevertheless they become the big bads of the movie

or at least the first half of the movie and Varang um she's very sexy I don't know

what to say she's a very alluring hips forward Navi uh she She's

she all the navi well they're all a little skinny where are the fat Navi. That's a really good question. They don't exist. And, like, the body image in Avatar is not what one would want. That's interesting. I hadn't thought about that. It's not good. We're back to... There must be someone... Quote, unquote, heroin chic. There aren't. But someone in Pandora who just, like, eats too many cheez-its, you know? They don't have cheesets because they're in touch with

the, you know, natural world and also Jim Cameron is a vegan. And so he's against processed foods. That's right. Yeah. That's right. Well, nevertheless, Varang, she's got it. like that. And Quorich notices. Yeah. And Quorich, who is, you know, in pursuit of Spider and Jake Sully, and he wants to capture Jake his mortal enemy and bring his son home, he falls in with Warrang. And there's an incredible sequence in this movie. Oh, this part's really good. Where she tempts him into a tent, and he thinks he's in the power position, and then she gets him to snort. what I guess is Navi PCP, and he begins hallucinating. And then in his hallucination, the film turns into this psychedelic seduction.

It was very cool. It's a great moment in the movie. I thought it was very funny. I was entertained. It's very amusing. And it is very much like James Cameron, you know, child of the 60s, letting his freak flag fly, you know, going back to his hippie days of experimenting with documented that he was a hippie and on and...

I think he was a... He seems a little control freak to... He was definitely like an erector set science guy, for sure. Yeah. But I think he also was like a let his freak flag fly guy, you know? Like, this guy was married to Linda Hamilton and Catherine Bigelow. Like, he knew what he was doing. Totally, but like this is not a man who, to me, seems like he's ready to let the spirits take over.

Well, maybe not now. And it's like a take one to no one situation. Yeah, but he might want to plug into that tree now. It's more spiritual rather. than is experimental with other... So you think he's like an ayahuasca type guy? Well, see, I felt like the Varang Coke was more like ayahuasca. Like, that was what was meant to induce.

Whereas the tree is this like, I'm connecting with a greater god, you know, something beyond me. And that's the polarity, I think, of the boomer. You know, the boomer is kind of stuck between, is it God or is it the devil? And these are the two representations. This film is incredibly deep as an exploration of stuff Jim Cameron's into. I was just shaking my head at boomers, you know? I know. I know.

It's just that's not where I want to be. They will let go. They will not let go. It's just very boring. Yeah, that was a good scene. It's like there are amusing parts of it, but I think we've made it, what, 75 minutes into the movie? Yeah, and that's the thing is that Varang is extremely hostile and intense, and she's a great villain. Yeah. She's, you really hate her.

You really, you know, despite my attraction to her, she's, she's evil and she's attacking. You don't hate her. She is like the classical villain that you're like turned on. by and or like, no, I, maybe that's the person that I want to spend the most time with. Right. And, but then when she enters Corridge's atmosphere, he kind of just, like, blots her out

a lot. Yeah. And then she becomes a part of his story, and she gets, like, less dialogue, let's she becomes less powerful. And the film really takes a big dip into the second act, I think. Once you get, like, roughly an hour, hour, 20 minutes into the movie, there is a lot of action and a lot of stuff that transpires that is interesting.

You know, Argy Pyacon, the whale does go on trial at a certain point. He gets railroaded by the whale jury. And, you know, it's like straight out of the hurricane. You know, it's like he was not there that night. Like he's not guilty. You have to free Paiacan. You should not be imprisoning him. He is a, he is a whale who deserves to swim in the ocean freely and not be outcast by his own people. And, you know, a lot of parallels there with how Lowoc feels inside of his own family, you know, and that's his spirit guide. So then that's literalized.

Yeah. I liked the whale council. Okay. That was funny. I didn't understand. Then once again, Pai Khan is exiled. And then there are other whales that he's talking to.

But like I didn't know he goes far away and I didn't know who else was talking to him. It's a fair point. We don't really, because the Tolkunds don't really speak English, it's a little hard to know like where they are and where they're going. It's not. It's not. I don't mind subtitles. I'm not Chris Ryan. It's just that it was not made clear who the other whales. And then Aegisley has to go away to come back.

Like, I didn't understand what the point of the journey was. I think it's that. I think it's just that classical thing where a character needs to experience exile and isolation in order to come back even stronger and save the day, which is something that you've seen a lot of Cameron movies. One of the reasons why I think the movie is struggling a bit is that this is actually, despite his long and historic career, something Cameron's never done before, he's never made a third movie in a series. And he definitely has not made three consecutive movies in a series before. He's made aliens, which is magnificent, but he did not make alien.

The extension of a story, he seems to be like a little flummoxed with how to keep it going. And I think a lot of your criticisms are down to that. We're sort of like, I built this world, okay, I got all this cool stuff in my world. But then even in terms of the ash people, like, he just doesn't really fully explore that stuff. Like, we don't really get their world for the last hour and a half of the movie. And I thought that there was going to be like a big conclusive fight on a volcano. Hmm. And that's not what we, it's another battle on the water in the third act.

It is true that this is a film titled Fire and Ash. And there's very little fire and almost no ash. Where's all this ash? It's in the water? No, it's fucking, it's up cordage's nose. I guess so. That's true. Got that booger ash.

I did like a lot of the submarine, subterranean stuff in the movie, especially the crazy attacking squids that play a big role in the third act. Yeah, those were cool you chuckled a lot when they showed up. That was just like maniac Cameron action stuff that I was loving. There are moments where I was delighted during this movie. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I can't disagree with a lot of what you're saying in terms of what doesn't really. functionally worked that well about it. But I also do like it as this crazy man's representation

of all of his interests at this stage of his life. I think there's something cool about that. And also just clearly as a father and somebody who has spent way too much time at work, he's going through it with the way that Jake Sully had his relationship to Loak, to Spider, to Kiri, to like who belongs in the clan and who doesn't? Who's getting his time?

Who doesn't? Should you be more of an authoritarian leader and father? Should you be softer and warmer to your children? Like, this feels autobiographical. Does it not? I guess so. Okay. No, it does.

But I was literally trying to be like, okay, so Jake, he tries to, like, ditch spider somewhere. And then. He tries to kill him. I mean, he lines up to sacrifice him. And then they say no. Of course, he loves him. It's the son. I was just thinking more about how the moms are entirely sidelined until.

the very end where spoiler alert Kate Wenslet's character who's been pregnant for all of two films I'm not really sure like what the... In 27 years that's the gestation period on Pandora It takes 27 years to give one shot.

How long is a year on Pandora though? Oh uh there you go Mr. Science Porter. Time is meaningless and yet it controls us anyway What does the quote remind me from one battle? Um

I don't, it's, yeah, time doesn't exist, but it controls us anyway. Thank you. So she has a classic, you know, I'm dying, but I got to give life to this baby first because that's like what true mama's do moment. And then Natiri, who has been nowhere for the whole movie, which sucks, shows up and is like, okay, I will, you know, preside over this most like holy active woman warriorhood. which is you pushing out a baby, which like true or whatever. And then Kate Winslet out, which is disappointing. It is a You Got This Mama movie in a lot of ways. As much as it is a dad in crisis movie, it's also a You Got This Mama movie. That's beautiful.

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Last minute holiday magic? It's on Prime. Head to Amazon.com slash Prime to shop now. I half jokingly, but maybe quite seriously, tweeted the movie is a soft remake of John Ford's drums along the Mohawk. Okay. I don't know why that hit my mind, but it is true, and there is a certain kind of a movie about invaders of a native land

and one group wants to fight for their independence and then the loyalists want to retain the colonial pride in the crown and in that movie on the New York frontier the loyalists conscript the Native American people on that land to fight alongside them against the revolutionaries I think that's a pretty

clever smart idea for like a war movie inside of this modern time Like, I think it works and it makes sense. It's something that you see, like, in foreign conflicts all the time in 2025, too. So, like, that's an aspect of the movie that I thought was smart, that I like the idea of Varang and her crew, like, joining the humans and being. And there's a confrontation with Quorich and Edie Falco's general character. You know, when the fire people, the ash people, come back to the human base.

That is very amusing. Edie Falco is in a lot of this movie more than I expected. She looks at some transparent screens and yells a lot. Right. And she's also in one of the... He has a power loader. Is that the power loader in this movie, though, or is that just in way of water? And I'm remembering it as well.

I think so. A lot of Jemaine Clement, you know. Yeah. And he has a surprisingly heroic redemption arc in this movie and the way that he had... Yeah. And works to free, imprisoned Navi. I think this movie is pretty cool. I think that's fine.

Okay. It is a real your mileage... May vary situation. And it's clear that Big Jim is having a great time. And you had a great time. I think Van Lathen had a great time. He stood and clapped at the end of the film. He did.

So, like, if you're into three hours of just all-out, like, machine gun battle sequences between made-up people and sometimes a beautiful sea creature and sometimes some psychedelic experiences, then you'll have a great time. I don't think that this movie, like the other two, has that, like the other two, has that, like, transcending genre, like, you know, transcending, I'm going to the movies to have a good time thing, that the first avatar and the second, and even way of water, it's something you never really seen before, which you have in this movie, and there is something.

like experiential where this is more like, oh, look, he did a funny thing and he decided to do this other funny thing. And so it's not transformative in the way the other two are. I can't disagree with you. It's only been three years since the way of water. And there's not a lot that isn't particularly new here. So you have to really enjoy these movies. And that's cool if you do. Yeah. Yeah. Um, you think that there will be a fourth and fifth. Well, how much, just ballpark, how much money do this will make? I mean, I guess we know it's going to crack a billion internationally worldwide, just because of how things work. But the last one made over two?

2.34 billion. Okay. I guess 1.8. I feel like it's going to be lower than that. You do? Wow. Okay. Because of all of the things that you're citing.

And I don't know if you'll get as many repeat viewings because it is very long. I don't remember what the Christmas competition was in 2022. I guess we could look that up. There are not, this is the big fish for sure this weekend. But there are a lot of movies coming out in the next week or so. Marty Supreme, The House Made. I just saw Song Song Blue and I've added it to the calendar and be interviewing the director because I really liked it. You know, there's a bunch of stuff coming out over the course of the next week or so that will be chipping into this, at least domestically, over that time.

So I'm curious. I'm going to say 1.6. Okay. And then 1.6, would that be a failure? I don't really know. I'm not really sure how to think about it. I would be surprised if Cameron, who's 71, came back for 4 and 5. Right.

He's already taking on other things. He's been talking a lot about the Ghost of Hiroshima. He co-directed a movie with Billy Elish, which I've seen a lot of trailers for while getting my nails done. Nice. And I... Do you watch that? Yeah. Okay, great.

I mean, there are. There's footage in the trailer of James Karen and Billy Elish interacting and, like, sure, sign me up. Yeah, why not? But it would seem that he's interested in things outside of the Navi right now. I want to talk about whether or not this film is going to get nominated for Best Picture. Okay. I think we should talk about the shortlists first. Well, should because the shortlists, you know, do shed some light.

They do. And Avatar Fire Nash did get shortlisted, I believe, in four categories. So it's not as though it was not represented. But, you know, we're recording this on a Wednesday. So yesterday the shortlist were announced in 12 categories. This is the first year for the Best Casting Academy Award, which is really exciting. I think it might be worthwhile to spend 20 or 30 minutes in February breaking this down, really, this category. Yeah.

What makes sense about it. But just high-level, sinners and Wicked for Good, both were shortlisted eight times. Right. This is not necessarily a signpost that these movies are going to do. dominate, but it doesn't hurt to be shortlisted in all these categories. Frankenstein got six short listings. Also not really surprising. The surprising one was Sarat.

Yeah. Serat was shortlisted five times. Now, Sarat, which I think I saw in August, and have you seen it yet? No, not yet. Okay, so you haven't seen it yet. I mean, it sounds like we should talk about it. I mean, it's number one on my list. It was a very quick qualifying run.

Okay. And so I hope they'll start making it more available. Yeah, I mean, it certainly seems like people in the academy are watching it because it's shown up in a bunch of places here. A couple of other quick reflections before we get into the specific categories themselves. Jay Kelly not in casting or cinematography. It does feel like Jay Kelly is DOA right now. Agree. And now I'm nervous about Adam Sandler.

Yeah, you were very confident about that on the Adam Sandler or Jay Kelly pod. And I just don't really think that it's. going to happen. So you think it's such a... Jacob Allorty and Paul Meskell? So for it's for sure Benicio del Toro, Sean Penn, Stellan, Scars Guard, I think Meskull's in. And it would have probably have to be a lordy in that spot.

Okay. That's annoying. Anyway, I thought Jacob All right was great, but... Del Rey Lindo, last minute. It's possible. Certainly possible. I think we're, I think that we'll get into this when we get into Best Picture Power and things.

Interesting sinners moment right now. Interesting Sinners moment. Okay. A couple of other things. Wake Up Dead Man and Just Score. So that's not a good sign for Wake Up Dead Man more broadly. Although it seems like people are really liking that movie, which is cool. Yeah.

It's a likable movie. It is. Once again, Josh O'Connor. He's a man. I would encourage people to listen to the Ryan Johnson interview if they liked it. He's really, he's incredibly insightful. And if you liked it, I think he's really good at explaining why he made certain choices in the movie. So arguably the biggest thing that's happening here

Is that it doesn't seem like searchlights It's going to have a movie in Best Picture Yeah So the testament of Anne Lee got nothing And I don't know if people Yeah Which is a bummer But it is like a

I guess it's a polarizing movie We all quite liked it Like I said I saw a tremendous number of Italian people Walking out of it in Venice A friend of ours texted me this week I was just like I hated that and it's just and said they just aren't my taste i get that oh which i which i you mean mona and bray yeah yeah i get that but like the brutalists had like eight nominations

i mean it was so sure well one's about men and the other is about women so uh it's not really surprising but you're right about that it is it's not the testament of jimley yeah it's a testament of anne lee uh so anne lee god i hope amanda seyford is nominated she is extraordinary in that movie But I don't think that movie is really competing for a best picture. We can talk about it. Rental family is also not recognized here. Is this thing on not recognized? So since 2010, every year, except 2016, Searchlight has had a movie in Best Picture.

And the only reason it didn't have a movie in 2016 is because they acquired Birth of a Nation. Right. And then Nate Parker was entrenched in that scandal. And then that movie kind of got erased. And that was a movie that coming out of Sundance, people were like, well, this is clearly a best picture. So you were looking at. an unbroken run of 16 years of Academy War. And prior to that, they missed in 2009,

but prior to that, they had a bunch going way back. So, I mean, Searchlight is as significant an Oscar player over the last 30 years as SPC, as Miramax, as all of those companies, it's a big thing. Yeah, but I think, you know, you are seeing, like, a regime change. That's it. How many is Neon going to have this year? What?

At least three, four? Yeah, it looks like three, maybe four. Right. And mostly because they just go to festivals and buy up all the international films and are running the table with that. And them shifting into that international flair and all of these movies,

you know, even though rental family is a film that takes place in Japan and the Testament of Anne Lee has a kind of foreign component, you know, these are American productions by and large. And that stuff is not as powerful. You know, the wake-up dead man's are not as powerful at the Academy Awards as they would have been 25 years ago.

It's interesting. It's just notable. It doesn't mean that the studio is like DOA or anything I think that what I think specifically what Searchlight has done for American movies over the last 25 years is really good, and I hope they get their mojo back with this sort of thing. And we love Dan Lee. I'm glad that they picked it up. Yeah. But it's a shame that it's not recognized here. Okay, let's go into a couple of the categories.

Casting. Mm-hmm. I'll read the names really quickly for the listeners so they know. Frankenstein, Hamnet, Marty Supreme, one battle after another, the secret agent, sentimental value, sinners, Sirot, weapons, and Wicked for Good. Yeah. It's 10 films shortlisted for five spots. It's cool. interesting mix.

Weapons is a shock. I'm really happy about it. I wonder what that tells us about how strong weapons is right now. Yeah, or I wonder what that tells us about how strong Amy Madigan is. Agreed. Yeah.

Could be very strong. Which is exciting. It is exciting. She is hustling quite a bit. I think Mikey Madison presented a screening of weapons recently, which is interesting. Surrott being here is even crazier to me.

Okay. Sarat, but no, no, no, no, it was just an accident and no, no, no other choice? Is. But Sarat in best casting? I don't, I guess Sarat is really on the brain. But that's what I'm saying? People like it. Yeah.

Or it's sticking with them. I mean, you know, it was also a surprise at the Golden Globes. I think you're right. Like, that's, it's, the big takeaways from this are Jay Kelly out Sarat in. Maybe not in best picture, but like start paying attention. I know you haven't seen it, but when you see it, I, you're going to be, Like, how the fuck is this in? Well, listen, people contain...

I liked it. Like, I liked it with some issues. Okay. But, like, it is not an Academy movie. Like, I'm kind of shocked. But I think it tells us something about how this has all changed. Any other notables there? I feel like it's roughly like seven to eight best picture contenders in here.

I mean, the Secret Agent train confirmed for sure. Yeah, that's a very good sign for Secret Agent. We were on that last month. I think if Marty Supreme were not in casting, it would be like a real siren. I agree. We're in trouble here. So I'm glad to see it. Marty really only missed in sound.

You would have liked to have seen it in sound for it to feel like really powerful. But, okay, let's talk about international features. So I'll read the list. I think it's 15 titles. Okay. So the titles include from Argentina, Belen, from Brazil, the Secret Agent, from France. It was just an accident. From Germany, Sound of Falling, from India, homebound, from Iraq.

The President's Cake from Japan, Kokuho, from Jordan, all that's left of you, from Norway, sentimental value, from Palestine, Palestine, 36, from South Korea. No Other Choice, from Spain, Sarat, from Switzerland, late shift, from Taiwan, left-handed girl, and from Tunisia, the voice of Hendraab. So I noted here that I've seen eight of these. Yeah. Let me count. There are a few more that I really would like to see. I'd like to see Kokuho.

I'd like to see the president's cake. I'm interested in Palestine 36. I'm interested in late shift. But I do think that the eight that I've seen are going to be enough in terms of being. And I think even maybe seven would be enough. And there is a world now with the Surat strength that it's five. neon movies. Yeah, which has been, like, solidifying for the last couple months, and it was funny.

Like, in the summer, they just bought everything. At Cannes, yeah. At Cannes, they bought absolutely everything. And we all made these jokes. And then nothing was released for a while. And it seemed kind of quiet and, like, oh, maybe, you know, maybe this is a year for, Maybe everything will stay like an international feature and this will be a more an American year. And it's, it's funny that we now have, we've been like, we don't have an anatomy of a fall, but like maybe now we have three.

I think you're right. I think you're right. And it's, I've been thinking back on my like top 10, top 20 for this year and why it feels chalky. And I think one of the reasons why it feels chalky is that Kleiber Mendoza Filio, like, he never had a movie distributed by neon before, you know? Like, Jafarah, he hasn't had a movie distributed at this, in this way. So, like, movies like that that usually show up on Year Endless are usually small international features. You know, maybe they get it as Sony Pictures Classics or Janus to release them and they get recognized and they get loved, but they don't get so widely seen. Yeah.

These movies are getting really widely, Sarat getting widely seen, it's crazy. And Neon is just absolutely going for it. Like, no other choice in particular, they were hosting like a summer intern. contest. Did you say they're doing like really gimmicky stuff? They invited 500 CEOs to a screening. Really funny. It's really good. But they are

they have like taken a page out of the Timothy Chalemay playbook and the 824 playbook and are like really like okay, we're leaning into this. And sort of making these movies that we didn't immediately think were pop pop through their marketing.

100%. It's worked really well. Obviously we saw it with the Nora last year. They know what they're doing. I'm really good at this. And they are, it's a different strategy for them this year than in years past where they have a lot of eggs and a lot of baskets. Whereas, like, A-24 has Marty Supreme. Yeah. That's their movie.

You know, Netflix has a lot of eggs and a lot of baskets. Sometimes it's better to have a bunch of movies. Sometimes it's better to just focus on one. We'll see what happens. Best documentary, not a ton to dig into. We'll talk more about this category when both of us have had a chance to catch up on some of these. I've seen the major films, The Perfect Neighbor. Come See Me in the Good Light, cover up Apocalypse in the Tropics.

I think my undesirable friends, part one, is the best film on this list. Maybe they're with cover-up and has won a couple of critics prizes already. If you can see it, we should talk about it. It is five hours long. Well. It is an intense durational portrait of Russian journalists, dissident journalists. But it's a very good film. I don't know how many academy members will get through it.

Okay. Well, you know the documentary, Darians. That branch is a, they're punishing. They are, but then when everyone has to vote, what happens is the question. Right. Right. So they could nominate the film, but then everyone would have to vote on it. No predators on this list.

No Orwell 2 plus 2 equals 5, the Roald Peck film. No, put your soul on your hand and walk. I was surprised to see that missing. If it were left to the people at large, I think the perfect neighbors, is probably in position to win since it's been such a hit, but we shall see. I just want to touch on cinematography and music before we go. Right.

So I'll read the shortlisted films. Ballad of a Small Player, Bologna, Die My Love, F1, Frankenstein, Hamnet, Marty Supreme, New Velvog, one battle after another, sentimental value, sinners, Surratt, song sung blue, Sound of Falling, Train Dreams, Wicked for Good. you haven't dipped into your F1 theory on this episode and it's like some signs it's not not happening the FX sound song cinematography yeah I do think this is weird I this is a weird list this whole collection is odd but yeah but as you have noted no other choice it was just an accident

and the secret agent like three almost guaranteed best picture nominees and no other choice in the secret agent are gorgeously shot. Unbelievable. And then did, like, did not make it in. And so you could say to that, okay, well, maybe the cinematographer branch is not really, you know, thinking internationally. But then you have Surat and Sound of Falling that did make it.

Very odd. Okay. Very odd. Yeah. And Song Song Blue, which is a good movie that I liked, I just said that. Right. I don't want a rag on it. Yeah.

But no other choice not nominated in Song Song Blue nominated? I don't know. I mean, Wicked for Good was short. listed. So what are you going to do? Good point. Okay. Best original song. Only one K-pop Demon Hunters. What are we doing? And two wicked for good. What are we doing? What is this category? I don't. I don't know. What I'm, what is this category? I don't know. This is bad. These people are out of control. Duolipa doesn't have an Oscar. And there's only one K-pop demon hunters. Save yourselves. You were handed this gift on a platter. You could have nominated four songs. It could

a Buntic K-pop convention. It's really stupid. It's stupid. I also don't even understand the rules themselves because Testament of Anne Lee is ineligible because they are based off hymns. But Wicked for Good is an original song. These aren't two new songs.

These songs were written for the movie. Okay. They stink, but they were written for the movie. Right. Right. Yeah. I mean, we'll get to a similar quagmire and score when we get there, but you're right that there are a lot of inconsistencies with these kinds of rulings.

I'll be rooting for I lied to you from sinners. And secondarily, I'll be rooting for as alive as you need me to be by 9-inch Nails, which I listen to on the way to work today, which is an absolute banger. That's beautiful. Thanks. I do love Golden.

Golden is like my third or fourth favorite song on that album. I've heard that out probably more than any other album this year. But that's the thing. But it's... What an opportunity, you know, to have like real songs that are part of the film that are wildly popular Amanda

you're 100% right and I just this has been a bad category every year except for the one year that they gave an Oscar to Lady Gaga and Mark Bronson

you're right and you should say it I do every year and nothing happens let's dig into best score quickly here are the nominees Avatar Fire or I should say the short listies

Avatar Fire and Ash Bogonia Captain America Brave New World, Diane Warren Relentless, F-1, Frankenstein, Hamnet, Hedda, House of Dynamite, J. Kelly, Marty Supreme, Nuremberg, one battle after another, sinners, Surrott, train dreams, Tron Aries, truth and treason, wake up dead man and knives out mystery and wicked. That's 20 films. I would like for you to perform the Captain America Brave New World score for me right now. I don't know who compose it. I'll happily look it up. Okay.

The composer of that score is Laura Carpman. I think Laura Cartman, what did she do? I think she's previously an Oscar nominee. I'm going to look up what she was nominated for. I can't remember what it was. American fiction, which was a good score. That's a good score. Very different, a jazzy score.

Yeah. I'm going Nuremberg. Have you seen it yet? No. I think Christmas, Christmas Day. I've got a screener at home. No, I know. I saw it too.

But it is over two hours. It's two and a half hours. Yeah, I know, I clapped that as well. It's two and a half hours of Russell Crow sitting, which I will watch. You just, you really have to do the, um, the choral or the crowd. Oh, yeah, the screener needs to be up because you really, you got to do a Nuremberg, the Coral double header. Yeah, the 78 year old Sean saunters into the Angelica on a Tuesday at 2 p.m. That's, that's what those movies are.

Nothing against them. This is sinners versus one battle, I think. But to Jack's point, I think Hamnet being here and the idea of previously used music from Max Richter appearing in the film clearly didn't disqualify it. It is eligible to be nominated. You know, interesting, I think Hedda getting a look here

is notable, a movie that is otherwise not really super represented. House of Dynamite otherwise not really represented here. Wake Up Dead Man we mentioned, otherwise not represented. So, you know, some stuff here. Some warning signs, some, like this is always helpful. I think for both of us to be like, all right, I got to watch this, this, and this now.

Absolutely. That leads us the best picture power rankings. Okay. So the rankings today are brought to you by Scout Motors. And although it's not a film, we do want to give an honorable mention to their all-new Scout Terra and Scout Traveler. Iconic in the 70s, reimagined for tomorrow with plans for advanced four-wheel drive, it'll be a show-stopper. Now, let's go through November 24th's Power Rankings. Number 10 was The Secret Agent.

Number nine was Train Dreams. Number eight was Avatar Fire and Ash. Number seven was it was just an accident. number six, sentimental value, number five, Frankenstein, number four, Marty Supreme, number three sinners, number two, Hamnet, number one, one battle after another. Okay. Now, that list was pretty good. Yeah.

We might quibble with the ranking a little bit, but I, we're maybe only going to have to strike one movie off the list, and I don't even know about that. Or maybe two, we can discuss it. Okay, let's, where do you, I think the Testament of An Lee has been quietly put to bed. I think is this thing on has been quietly put to bed. has been quietly put to bed. Okay, so you're going through the outliers. I think a house of dynamite is done. Yeah.

I think rental family is done. Yes. I think Springsteen is so done that we can take it off completely. We don't even have to mention those words anymore. Though Jeremy Allenway did get a nomination, a Golden Globe nomination, but that's Golden Globes, Inc. holding on to their truths. The new tier one to me that is on the outside looking in, and we can decide whether or not any of these films is going to make the list.

Right. Is as follows. Yes. For Good for Good, of course. We don't have it in right now, but it is still a contender. They're hanging on. And there's going to be a lot of below-the-line nominations for Wicked for Good. And probably at least two in Best Actress and Supporting Actress.

Maybe. Certainly supporting actress. There's a strong feeling that Cynthia Revo could be out. Yeah. I think Chase Infinity could push her out. That would. We shall see. I think no other choice is still in Tier 1.

I do as well. The Libyanne nomination at the Globes seems to indicate some strength. Yes. But the shortlist, it's present but not that present. You'd like it to be stronger. Yeah. For sure. Cinematography, baffling.

I can't even imagine what the point is. F1. I'm putting it in Tier 1. Okay. That's fine. Welcome to Tier 1, F1. You earned it. What's it, what is the tier one in F1, the sport called?

I don't know. Okay, Jack. Wow, all right. Is Song Sung Blue in Tier 1? Well, you, listen, you're like a little, you texted me out of the theater. Yeah. Right? How long was your drive home last night, by the way?

It was one hour and four minutes. Okay. Not ideal. And you were like. I saw two films yesterday. You know what? I saw the two hour and 40 minute Magellan and then immediately drove four minutes away and saw song song go. You know why?

I love film. You know what I'm doing tomorrow? What are you doing? I'm doing a double header of Marty Supreme straight into Is This Thing On? Do I even need to get in my car? No, I don't. I've lined it right up. Thank you so much.

The R-Men okay double feature. So, but you texted me right out of the theater and you were like kind of surprised how much I liked, how much I loved. I think you used loved Song Song Blue. It's just so not really in my bag, but it's just like a big beautiful steaming Christmas ham, you know? Yeah. Where it's just like sometimes you just want like that pineapple on there and those cherries and get that glaze going, you know, and just like, this is good for me. It's debatable. But like I'm loosening the belt tonight for Song Song Blue.

So let's be clear. It's not good for you. And also would you actually eat a ham with pineapple and cherries on it? But like right now. No. And also, did you ever eat it with? The mustard. Fuck no.

That's psychotic behavior. Disgusting. I would never eat that. Okay. I hear what you're saying. I think that there is... I'm just drizzling idea dust on this list. Tier one's fine.

Tier one's fine. Okay. Tier one. Maple glaze on the list. I'll add one more to the top of the list. And I think this is in keeping with... Wait, I got to go back to my list. I think this is in keeping with these short list nominations, which is weapons.

Weapons had been in tier two, but we see it in casting. Yeah. And we know Amy Madigan's going to be nominated. I'm not saying it's going into Best Picture, I don't think it is. Right, but you're putting it in Tier 1. Okay. That means Tier 2 becomes rental family is this thing on The Testament of Anne Lee, House of Dynamite, J. Kelly, wake up dead man. Okay.

Is that track? Yeah. Now, doing our 10. I'm going to start from the bottom up. Is it possible Sinners is in first place right now? No. Are you 100% sure in won its first Critics Prize it broke the one battle after another streak?

Yeah. I think right now we're in the phase of everyone's tired. It's been a long time. We've got a long time to go. We're looking for narratives. We're looking for some juice. We're looking for some maple glaze. I know.

Three months. And we're taking one battle for granted. a little. You have been, you yourself, Sean Fantasy, have been a little overconfident. And that's, you're right as a, as a man sitting at this table. But I think that that's reflective of where we are in the race. And people are just kind of like, maybe it's time to talk about sinners. And that, listen, it's good content. I still, I think it's two, not one. But two. Yeah. Are you, do you, did you think Hamlet would be a bigger hit thus far?

No. I didn't. Like, you mean a box office hit? Yeah, I do. I don't. I don't think that people were going to be rushing out open night. Like, you know, Paul Meskell is the internet's boyfriend, but it's not really like a Colleen Hoover go-with-your-girls type of movie. Bill Simmons loved it.

Wow. Loved it. Texted me immediately after seeing it. Wow, wow, wow, exclamation. point. Wow. Listen, this is what I love about Bill. He always surprises. Did he cry? He didn't address that when I brought it to him. Okay. And then I told him what I thought of the movie, which is what we said on the pod, which is like first hour I really didn't like, but then it really did get me at the end. And then I think he listened to the pod. And he was like, you are a heartless fool. You are. Okay. I think he implied that you were as well. Oh, I am? I mean, I said, I literally cried on that podcast. You did cry. That was a moment.

I like, well, listen, it's, that movie is... What's aggregate that moment, internet? I cried and then you started tearing up. So, like, I, that's fine if I'm heartless. Okay. I agree, we're not heartless. We're full of heart. Okay.

So is Hamnet in three? You think it's one battle sinners in Hamnet right now? Is there anything above it? Marty coming? No, I think that you would probably have to put either it was just an accident or secret agent. Oh, interesting. Or, like, sentimental value, you know, where are we with that as a community? I think it's right where it belongs.

Okay. Where's Bill with that? I don't believe he's seen the film. Okay. It is a Norwegian, so no guarantee that he's going to watch the film. Bill, if you watch it, please text me too. Okay. Because you want to be confirmed in your feelings of mixedness.

No, I just love curious. You know, I value his opinion. I think when Battle is still won, and you're right that I'm getting overconfident about that. Okay. I do think that Sinners is increasingly, I can see the spoiler dump. because I can see the actors' awards, ensemble win on stage. I can see score and song going early in the telecast to sinners. I could see cinematography going to sinners.

I could see a couple of things that would make us go, what? And to your point earlier, if somehow Wunmi Masaku and Del Rilindo get into those acting races, then it's like, oh, wow, there's a ton of support. Flipside, film didn't do that well overseas. It's a black American film It has obviously elements of Irish history in it But it is an American movie

And Those movies don't have the strongest track record But there's something in the air I don't know what it is I think eight shortlist IDs is a lot And I'm just I'm flagging it

For purposes of this conversation Number two is where it should be Number two I don't think you're wrong It still feels to me like the original screenplay winner and then some below the line stuff

and that's traditionally the coolest and best award for our favorite person so that would fit in my logic as well Okay then here's what I'll propose I think Hammond is still three I think it is very powerful

I think the people who love it love it so you'll see a lot of ones on those voting ballots I think four I think it was just an accident is an inspired idea Okay. And given all the news about Panahi and some of the critical wins, that has power.

I still, if I were, if we were filling out our predictions today, it would be one battle, best picture, and Panahi and best director. It's definitely possible. Yeah. Definitely possible. That would be- Which is not like a novel idea, many people are circling around that. No, but a lot of people have been pointing out that the last three or four years, the Oscars have been going heavy for one movie instead of, you know, spreading the wealth. So we'll see if one battle is truly a juggernaut or not

Or if sinners is stronger than we think, then everything's on the table. I would then suggest that if we, it was just an accident is four, Marty is five, Frankenstein is six, sentimental value is seven. You think Frankenstein is above sentimental value? I do. Okay. Because I think it will have more total nominations. Okay.

One, two, three, four, five. That's in the acting screenplay and best picture. Do you think? I don't think it's going to get into screenplay, but I do think it's going to get into directing. And I don't think sentimental value will get into directing, but I do think it will get into screenplay. I think it will get... Wait, what don't you think we'll get into? What's getting into what?

I think sentimental value will get into screenplay. Yes. And Frankenstein won't. Agree. I agree. I think Frankenstein will get into directing and sentimental value won't. Agree.

And then... I agree with you. Even though I do I agree with those traces? No, but I agree with your assessment. Sentimental value will get three acting noms, but it will get no below the line nominations. Whereas Frankenstein will get like six below the line nominations. That's my gut right now.

Okay. Could be wrong. I don't know what the fuck I'm talking about. So that's the top seven. You got all that, Jack? Yeah, he does. Okay. Avatar Fire and Ash, all things getting in.

I don't either. So we're going to have to figure something out. All right. We've got Train Dreams and the Secret Agent at 10 and 9 from last month. I feel comfortable just moving those to 8 and 9. 8 and 9. Okay. And you still think that Train Dreams is ahead of Secret Agent?

I think it's pretty tight. I think they're both very well liked. Very well liked. Secret Agent, I think, is a little bit of a, a little bit of a tougher sit for some people. So it's length and is sort of all over the placidness. However, Brazil, very popular, very strong in the academy. Yeah. Not been to the country.

I'd like to go one day. It was lovely. You went? When I went, yeah. Did we talk about this? No, I went with my friend Stephanie when I was 25. I got the most sunburn I've ever got in my life. Interesting.

What cities did you go to? I just went to San Paolo and then to the beach, but I don't remember the name of the beach. But that, it was beautiful. Okay, cool. I'd like to go back. I'd like to go to Rio. So 10. Now, if we're pulling from Tier 1, the Tier 1 choices are Wicked for Good, No Other Choice, F1, Song, Song, Blue weapons.

Okay. What's going? Okay, so here's, we forgot to mention one film. Yeah. Sarat. You think it's going all the way? That, I mean, that would be awesome. I mean, we're talking.

We're just talking on a pod. Let's, do you want to put it in? You haven't even seen the film. You want to put it into your one? Do you know what's going on in this movie? Are you familiar with what happens? I know, like, enough that I don't want to know the rest. Like, stop talking to me.

And I couldn't go to the most recent screening. I can't remember whether I had to go see. Like, do you know the premise of the movie? Yeah, it's a rape. desert yeah that's how it opens yeah no i don't know the rest i don't i don't want to know anything i'm not going to tell you anything okay i'm just asking questions great and i'm giving you answers so now we have to talk about other things so you can't say for sure whether you think it's an academy no other choice or weapons or f1 i mean to me it's like the bold choice right now at this stage of

things is f1 sarat right or no other choice that's what i those are i think the real contenders No, but you know what? It might just be wicked for good. It might. That would be boring. But that also is going to have a bunch of below the line. What do you think will win the cinematic and box office achievement award at the Golden Globes and get that on stage moment? In that category are Avatar Fire and Ash, Wicked for Good, and K-pop demon hunters.

And then, you know. I think this is dependent on the first two weeks of Avatar's box office. Okay. Cinematic and box office achievement. 2025, I can read the rest for you. Please read the nominees. Well, F1 is also in there. Mission Impossible to Final Reckoning.

Sinners, weapons, Wicked for Good, Zootopia 2. Oh, Zootopia 2. You think? It's going to make like $1.6 billion. They're not just looking at the box office sheet. It's a cinematic achievement. Yeah. Have you seen the film?

I'm going to take Knox. It's an extraordinary expert. exploration of the way that we allow societies to divide us. Okay. I just, I'm saying there's also, is this, let's see, Sinners is nominated in drama, and one battle is in comedy at the globes. So, and Hamet was not that strong at the Globes. So you think Sinners takes drama, one battle takes comedy. I do.

And then in this. category, you think it'll be Zootopia over K-pop Demon Hunter's Avatar and Wicked for Good? I do. Okay. Unless Zootopia is going to win an animated feature, which I don't think it is. I think K.P.O. Game Hunter's so that you think that's how they're going to do the split. Maybe they give it to Wicked for Good. Okay.

Maybe just because, but the truth is that that movie has not succeeded nearly as much as the first film at the box office. Okay. I guess the follow-up question is, do you think that that stage moment for whichever of these films matters in terms of Best Picture nomination. Okay. Do you? I don't know. I think people are impressionable

and seeing people on stage confers an idea of I mean, we've always said this about Do you get a golden globe for cinematic and box office achievement? What do they give you like a crunch bar? Like what's that worth? I love crunch bars.

I do too. Remember when they did like bunch of crunch? Oh yeah. That's so good. Yeah, that was good. Um, we've always said that the ensemble award at the SEG Awards, rebranded as the actor awards, was important in terms of seeing everybody together. But that's because it's the last big thing that everyone sees before Oscar voting. That's well.

This is the last, is this, are the globes after the nominations ballots are in? When is, what's the voting timeline? Oscars voting timeline. Timeline 26. This is very exciting. Max like Broome in New Jersey. I'm trying to just relax. Nominations voting begins on January 12th, the morning after.

So there. Great. Okay. I'm just asking questions. So you think it's a cinematic and box off the achievement award. I'm just saying whether. No, I just want to make sure I'm getting this right. You said it's the most significant bellwether for the best picture race in 2026.

Is what you said, right? Just saying lizard brains. People have seen the people on stage and then they got to open their portals and, you know, testify that they've watched every single movie. What's going at 10? Make a choice. Well, let's see. Let's be bold.

Let's do Sarat. I love it. That's exactly the right choice for the purposes of this list. Yes. Okay, let's read our list now. At number 10, Sarat. Yeah. Oliver Lash's Spanish film about a, well, I won't say, because I don't want to spoil it for you.

Number nine, the secret agent, number eight, train dreams, number seven, sentimental value. Number six, Frankenstein, number five, Marty Supreme. Number four, it was just an accident. Number three, Hamnet, number two, sinners, and number one, one battle after another. Today's best picture power rankings was brought to you by Scout Motors, bold and cinematic. Just like these films, the all-new Scout Terra and Scout Traveler,

are planning to deliver that and more. Join the waitlist at ScoutMotors.com. Concept vehicles, not available for sale. Features and performance specifications are preliminary and subject to change. Joining the wait list does not guarantee purchase. Visit Scout Motors.com for details. Well, that does it. Can I ask a question very quickly?

Of course. Avatar Fire and Ash dropping out. More specifically, your personal reactions to the film or something larger collectively you think is being felt by the industry? Larger, I think. I think so. It's just the juice isn't there in the same way. I mean, you know, we also estimated that the box office would be much lower

than Avatar, the Way of Water. And the critical reactions are, it's not just us. Many people are saying that it's not as exciting as the first two. And it's the same logic we're using for Wicked for Good. That's exactly right. Way of Water was a 67 on Metacritic, Avatar Fire, and Ashes is a 61, and we'll probably go down a bit over the next couple of days. So I just think there is like everything that Amanda said,

that lack of the thrill of the news, some of the repetition of the story, story beats, those things are working against it. But it's a good question. And we could be wrong. Because, you know, Ben against Big Jim. Dicey. So far, it has not served us. So did we have Way of Water in, In, In last time in 22? I don't remember. I don't remember either. Nevertheless, the next episode of this pod is going to be very cool

because we are talking about Ella McKay and Is This Thing On, two movies that I have no idea. if the audience of this show are going to see. Ella McKay just opened to one of the single lowest wide release weekend box office numbers in the history of film. Yeah. However, the film is also actively being memed on the internet. I've also seen it, and I have many strong thoughts.

As do I. Is this thing on you haven't seen yet? I also have strong thoughts on this film. So it's going to be coming on hot. It's also, we're at that time of year where it's crunch time for the movies. It's crunch time for you and me. And this has the prime Friday afternoon before Christmas second recording of the day spot. So, like, it will have to be seen and heard to be believed.

These films and also the podcast. We're going to leaven that discussion with 10 overlooked and underseen movies from the year. You'll pick a few. I'll pick a few. We'll put our list together. We'll say, hey, maybe over the hospital. holidays watch these movies. Sound good? That sounds great. Okay, thanks to our producer Jack Sanders for his work on this episode. Thanks to CT for filling in in studio. We'll see you

next time.