The Big Picture - ‘Avatar: The Way of Water’ and the James Cameron Rankings
Episode Date: December 16, 2022Big Jim! We’re goin’ back to Pandora, baby! James Cameron’s ‘Avatar: The Way of Water’ is here, 13 years after the original dominated the movie world. Sean and Amanda discuss the film in dep...th, from the extraordinary technological achievements to its familiar-seeming story (1:00). Then, Chris Ryan joins to put Cameron’s filmography in context by ranking all of the director’s films, many of which are among the most successful and significant of the past four decades (44:00). Hosts: Sean Fennessey and Amanda Dobbins Guest: Chris Ryan Producer: Bobby Wagner Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices
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I'm Sean Fennessey.
I'm Amanda Dobbins.
And this is The Big Picture, a conversation show about Big Jim.
We're going back to Pandora, baby.
Avatar The Way of Water is here 13 years after the original
and a decade in the making.
It's the sequel to one of the biggest movies of all time. Avatar The Way of Water is here 13 years after the original and a decade in the making.
It's the sequel to one of the biggest movies of all time.
It opens around the world today.
It is without question one of the movie events of 2022.
To celebrate, we're going to break down this movie in a largely non-spoiler fashion,
though it's pretty tough to spoil.
Then we're going to put Avatar's creator and father, James Cameron's filmography, in context for you by ranking all of his films.
Amanda and I, and Chris is going to join us, Chris Ryan, to rank those films. But first,
let's submerge into the way of water. See what you did there. You really are getting good with
the segues. Thank you. Yeah. And the wordplay. Yeah. Writer, editor, podcaster, Sean Fennessy.
That's me. Okay. And I'm here to talk about James Cameron.
It's a huge movie.
It's been a long time coming.
13 years.
I want to talk to the audience about what this film is about.
I want to share my complicated feelings about this movie.
But why don't we start with your feelings?
What do you think of this film?
It's kind of undeniable, you know?
And you and I might try to deny certain parts of it at some point but like listen it's this is a three hour and 10 minute movie like entirely created in big Jim's
mind and put on the screen and you gotta go see it in theaters and it's an event and like it plays
it does it plays is it ridiculous yes should you and i have rewritten
the dialogue yes like is does is it a little more video gamey and like you know fantasy world than
the first one yes certainly but like what are you gonna say like it's he he is he is in his own league
creating literally his own world and pandora that you get to go spend three hours in.
Like, he did it, I guess.
You got to give it up.
Yeah, you do.
There is a you got to give it up feeling to the movie.
The highs of this film are as high or almost as high as any I've had in a movie theater this year.
There are some lows.
This is not a perfect movie.
I don't think this is going to be
an out-and-out celebration of this movie
as a modern masterpiece.
And the initial critical reaction
has been extremely positive.
People are wilding.
Maybe overstating it.
But when the movie is hitting,
which is to say when James Cameron
is creating an action set piece
that combines the technology that he's developed
with his sense of
visual storytelling it's like on another level it is there is very few things in the last 50 years
of movies that you can compare to him when he's at his best doing that and there are some times in
this film when he is at his best now historically story and character not always his forte particularly
dialogue as you mentioned and so there are some things that are, this is not an A-plus report card from us on the show.
But let's talk a little bit more about it.
Let's give the listeners some context.
So, of course, Sam Worthington and Zoe Saldana are back, appearing as Jake Sully and Natiri.
At this point in the story, Sam Worthington's character has fully transitioned into his avatar body.
He is now fully Na'vi.
He is no longer even a little bit human.
Right.
Refresher for anyone who has not revisited Avatar in 13 years
and basically doesn't remember anything because, you know,
it is sort of famously the most successful film of all time
that, like, people don't totally talk about.
You guys did a great podcast you and the
blank check guys that is a good refresher but if you want just like the one sentence thing
at the end of the first avatar the very last shot is the Sam Worthington character like wakes up
as a fully transformed Navi yes and it cuts so that's that's kind of what you need to know and
that's more or less where we kick off
and they reintroduce us to that character
and to Nateri and to their growing family.
They've had a few kids together.
They have adopted a child.
They have adopted also sort of a human child
who was left behind when the Sky People,
aka the humans, were sort of escorted off of Pandora
and it started to return to its natural equilibrium in the world.
This movie, of course, needs an engine of conflict.
And that conflict is humans and human interest returning to Pandora to disrupt the way of life for the Na'vi.
And so that sends us into another adventure.
It's funny to talk about the plot of this movie because it's so different from so much contemporary intellectual property moviemaking, which is like the plot is kind of secondary.
It certainly matters what happens to the characters, but the movie is much more interested in building the audience's relationship to the characters and then putting those characters in these sort of extraordinary visual circumstances. So in this film, obviously it starts off in the forest of Pandora,
and then it's pretty well understood at this point
that the bulk of the film takes place
really in the seas of Pandora
as their family travels from this place
that we knew from the first film
to this sort of new clan.
And that's where Jake Sully's family goes
to kind of hide out from those who are in pursuit of him.
There's a lot of other complicated story that we should probably talk about to make this
conversation coherent. I guess, I guess though, like, will I be able to recreate all of it?
It's interesting. It's, there's a lot going on. It's meted out over three hours. So some things
take a long time. Some things go by really quickly. And you're like,
wait, what? You did turn to me about an hour and 45 minutes into this movie. And you were just like,
why is this happening? Not in like a confused way, but because they hadn't set up motivations
or stakes. So it's both really simple and kind of immaterial to the experience.
And also, I will probably flunk the plot recreation portion of this.
I'm also really glad that you did the setup just now because my glasses were screwed up.
Did you notice this?
I did.
I know you had to go swap yours out.
So I went to swap them out.
Just in PSA.
Your 3D glasses, you're saying, during the screening.
Yes, my 3D glasses.
I got a bump hair.
And so the opening sequence sequence which is just kind
of setting up the family ties and you know life on pantora is beautiful and then there's a fire
it's the arrival of the human forces come back and they're sort of raising the land right right
right and and when that showed up is when i realized okay like something's really wrong
with my glasses and i had to get a new one um So I might really flunk the plot recreation.
But also, if your glasses seem wrong,
go get new ones, everyone.
Don't sit through three hours of bad 3D
because it was really bad for the first four minutes.
I was like, uh-oh, big Jim.
Well, I think an interesting point of conversation
that we'll probably get to in a little bit is
even after you get the right glasses,
does this film look right to your eye?
But like, but this was like.
You had something broken.
Yeah.
No, it was like really broken.
There's, there's nothing broken about the setup for this film.
And I'm going to transition into explaining what happened.
So this movie takes place 10 years after the events of the first film.
And essentially the, the Marines who had been hired to sort of act as, you know, like a Blackwater-style military complex that came into Pandora have been reconstituted in this film.
What they've done is they have captured the memories and the consciousness of Stephen Lang's Colonel Quaritch, along with a number of other grunts from the first film.
And they have transported those things into the body of Avatar Na'vi.
This is sick exposition, by the way.
This is the one time I really enjoyed it.
Because he's like, the way they explain all of this is that real human Stephen Lang
is doing a video diary for If This Happens.
And Giovanna Ribisi is just kind of like-
He shows up in the frame.
Like evil corporate man in the back being like
who cares
just tell him what's what
you know
like I mean
video diaries
are just like
great sci-fi
it's amusing
exposition
yeah
but I was just like
oh okay
like we all know
that you gotta do this
and this is the way
you're doing it
it's kind of the only time
I felt like that
it's one of a series
of natural science fiction
expositional moments
where it's like
we kind of need to hold
the audience's hand very tightly to make sure they understand why Stephen Lang is a giant 10-foot
avatar in this film. But this one is at least done with a bit of wit and self-awareness. It becomes
clear very early on that they have essentially been transferred into these Na'vi to go hunt
the true Na'vi, you know, Neytiri and Jake Sully, in part because they're the leaders
of this sort of like rebel alliance.
There is a kind of Star Wars quality
to some of the story.
And this feels like them returning.
I wrote in this outline,
The Empire Strikes Back,
I think is a little bit of a model
for this film in some ways.
And so you've got,
they're essentially posing Na'vi versus Na'vi
as the primary conflict.
But what happens is,
is that Jake Sully gives up leadership of the clan and departs the
forest.
And then he brings his family, his children, who we spend some time with.
And we see about the relationship between these two boys and this little girl.
And then this other little girl, who is a kind of half-breed Navi, who we learn is born from Sigourney Weaver's character's Navi avatar
in the first film.
After she's died, she gives birth, but we don't know who the father is.
This is a very confusing aspect of this film.
Nevertheless, this young girl, Navi, becomes an adopted daughter, and she is a critical
figure in the spiritual aspects of the storytelling here.
And she is played by Sigourney Weaver.
She is,
who is rendered as a sort of
teenage avatar version of herself.
Right.
Very good performance.
If you were asked to play
the teenage version of yourself
with motion capture performance,
would you be able to do it?
Well, that's not the only thing
that they're asking of Sigourney Weaver.
She also has to be spiritually connected to like the underwater spirit tree, which I don't really think is a spoiler. But anyway, you know, it's hard to spoil. There's there's a there are a lot of dimensions to this character's relationship to the natural and spiritual world that I think would be equally difficult for me to do with a straight face.
I could be surly, no problem. But can I just be like, sure, now I will like, you know,
free dive with the fish you made up for 20 minutes. I don't know.
Yeah. I think the thing is, if you want to enjoy this movie, there's a lot of stuff you just got
to go with. And I don't think that that's necessarily apologizing for it because frankly,
I think some of it doesn't work. But if you accept it, if you accept some of the mumbo jumbo, if you accept some of the spirituality and the ecology that Cameron is after, it probably will make it more rewarding for you.
And you'll more likely invest in the story.
The Sully clan, eventually, they do flee.
They leave the forest and they flee to the sea where the Metcaino, which is a sort of a related clan of Na'vi live.
And they are more fish-like.
They have developed these sort of like fins on their arms and they swim and they can hold their breath underwater for long stretches of time.
And the same way that the Na'vi have a relationship to sort of like the flying creatures in the first film, they also have relationships to the sea creatures.
So, you know, the first hour of the film essentially sets up everything I just said.
The second hour is largely set amongst the Metcaina and the various wildlife that live in the sea.
And it is a long period of time in the film where we are just getting acclimated to this world
as we watch the Sully family get acclimated to being in the water.
And it's beautiful.
Yeah. But it is leisurely. They really slow down the breaks
on the story. And you can tell that this is something that clearly fascinates James Cameron,
if you've seen his documentaries, if you've seen Titanic or The Abyss.
If you know anything about him, you know that Big Jim loves the ocean.
He wants to be under the water. And so we are in the water for long stretches of time.
I don't want to say too much more about the plot from there.
Essentially, Quaritch is in pursuit of the family
once they have teamed up with the Medcaina.
And the third hour, I thought was just extraordinary,
especially the first 40 minutes of the third hour.
I was like, this is the sickest action movie I've seen in years.
And to me, it's ultimately worth the price of admission.
Even if you are a little bit skeptical of some of the science fiction aspects or some of the metaphysical aspects of the storytelling,
there is some old school Terminator 2 style action set pieces in this movie that just rip so hard.
And so, you know, ultimately for me, I was like a bit mixed on the movie.
There was, I feel that it is ultimately too long.
I think that there are strains of it that could be cut down for sure to ease some of the,
to raise the profile, I think, of what is really working.
On the other hand, I'm sure we'll talk about this a lot. This is really a movie about family. And the only way to kind of accept its
premise is to spend as much time with the family unit as you can and to better understand their
relationships. In some cases, I think he really does a nice job of getting you invested emotionally
in the family. And in other cases, I feel like some of the characters, as in all of his films,
are very archetypal and so not very surprising what turns the story takes.
What do you think about that?
There are also so many of them.
You know, I learned from my husband, Zach Barron's GQ profile, that James Cameron is a father of five.
Or I guess I was reminded of it.
I knew that at some point. are there are many children that we are following along with the two parents plus we have to develop
some sort of relationship to the the c people family and their children and how their children
relate to the other children and you know it is sort of like this it's world building but it's
it's just a lot of people to keep track of. And so no one person gets that much time or that much character development or even really gets to say that much in the case of certain like very big name actresses who signed on to this.
You're referring to Kate Winslet.
Yeah, Kate Winslet, who apparently broke some sort of record for holding her breath underwater, which I'm very proud of.
Seven and a half minutes?
Yes.
Yeah.
And as Big Jim puts it in the GQ piece, is also like the queen of the sea or whatever.
She plays Ronald, who is the female, I guess, the matriarch of the Metcain.
Right.
Maybe she has 12 lines of dialogue.
Not very many.
And you actually would be hard pressed to identify her as Kate Winsinslet in motion capture performance if you didn't know it was her. And the investment that you can give to any one part of it, whether it is like the action set pieces or the sea or any of the like 45 characters.
You know, it is, it's truly epic, but sometimes a little hard to latch on to the various parts of the epic.
I agree with you.
There's one other character who we haven't talked about.
His name is Spider.
He's a human boy who is also a member of the family.
What was that about? spider he's a human boy who is also a member of the family who become he becomes a critical figure
in the telling of the story opposite quaritch because he is captured and then essentially
is used as a kind of guide slash bait during their pursuit of the sully clan and that was
another familiar archetype from the james cat if you if you're familiar with newt from aliens
this is sort of the newt of that film, a sort of feral human creature
who guides a path towards salvation in some respects,
but also is a figure of danger.
It's a complicated execution of a simple story
about a guy trying to keep his family together.
Basically, that's really ultimately what it boils down to.
That's also a familiar kind of trope
in some of these films that Cameron has made
over the last three decades and I found myself liking it and not
loving it I thought it really slowed down too much in the middle of the film and at a certain point
I don't know if I actually turned to you at this point but I was kind of like the reason I asked
you the question about why are they doing this yeah is because I don't think that there was enough time spent at the beginning of the film making it clear why Jake Sully was so important to the military industrial complex slash, you know, the companies in pursuit of the natural resources of Pandora.
Why eliminating him mattered so much.
And because the film is all of this time is being spent
him protecting
and Korach pursuing.
If that doesn't work as well,
then the film doesn't work
as well for you.
Now, you might sit down
in your seat
with a big bag of popcorn
and a giant Coca-Cola,
in my case,
a Minute Maid lemonade,
which was absolutely delicious.
And you might just,
you might not care.
You might not be too caught up
in the plot details
and you might just let the spectacle wash over you.
And I think we should talk about how they achieve the spectacle.
I think that's the only way to watch the movie.
And I think that's the way that a lot of people,
including myself, watched the first film.
Yes, yes.
Which is just letting the spectacle wash over you.
Yeah, and I think the first film had an extraordinarily novel aspect to it.
You know,
the way that it looked, the animation style, the motion capture. I think a huge reason for its
success was it had this kind of, you got to see this quality. There's never been a movie like
this before. In this film, there are variations on that theme, but it is yet again, like 10 foot
tall blue aliens talking to each other
which we did see in the last film you know like that isn't that isn't different per se but when
you consider the ocean photography which has is you're being a little hard on the ocean and the
ocean no no i was about to be nice yeah but i just like i thought that part was beautiful and i
honestly being amanda responded more to hour two than hour three, which is insane.
No, that makes sense.
No, no.
That's good.
And that's just because at some point, obviously...
It becomes a war movie.
Yeah.
Well, and he invented that cinematic language, as I understand it.
But so I was like, oh, okay, now you're doing this.
And my brain turns off.
And there's just so many guns.
He loves guns so much. And I was just just like you know i i wasn't really feeling that
but it's beautiful the ocean it is and i thought there's a there's a chase sequence that i thought
was very exciting um i really connected with the i think i mean i don't know whether i like i
connected connected,
but I,
I liked the sea creatures that he invented.
I think that I find the,
the animals that he creates to be slightly more developed and compelling than some of the like Navi characters.
The Tulcun.
Yeah.
The giant whale-esque figure,
which is a huge part of this story.
Yeah. Is, story, is extraordinary.
It's very, very cool what he's created there.
I think my criticism is not about what actually takes place under the sea or how it looks or even how it feels.
I think it's more just the amount of time that is devoted to it is probably too much for me.
But you might say there's too much time devoted to aliens shooting at each other as well which I think
is a reasonable concern
can you
do you remember the name
of any of the children
the character names
Toque
right
good Toque
yeah
so what's up with
naming one of the characters
Toque is the youngest daughter
sure
very cute
played by the actress
Trinity Jolie Bliss
Toque and Tolkien
and hearing those words I did pause those words over and over again is tough.
I confess that I have not studied the Navi language at all.
I gave you some homework.
Don't want to be taken down that path.
You know, like I just really, I don't.
And I think Took Tiri is actually her full name, but she's called Took throughout the
film.
Yeah.
Well, she's very cute.
She's great.
Loak and Netiem are the two other children.
Are those the sons?
The two sons?
Yeah, I didn't remember anything about them.
I mean, obviously, at some point you learn.
What did you learn about raising a boy from this film?
Oh, my God.
I didn't, you know. I think primarily what I noted was that the mother figures were only allowed to like stalk around and look pissed off while the dads did all of the stuff. And I was like, well, this isn't maybe the world that I want to be in.
I did notice that.
Yeah. Yeah. This is a movie about dads and sons.
Yes, it is.
It's really not about the mothers.
Disobeying your father as a young man.
What a tried and true trope that is that I deeply relate to.
The reason to come to this movie is the filmmaking.
And the filmmaking is both practical and impressive and also otherworldly and created with science.
I can't imagine watching this movie on tv no don't it
just doesn't seem like a good idea like if you're interested just you gotta go like this is not
promo for the studio i could care less but like if you're interested you just gotta go see it in
the theater because like we saw it in best case scenario right it was like the big theater at a
big movie chain with the perfect sound that you know is approved by the studio and the filmmakers with the right glasses after you got yours resolved right um and the screen was appropriate
imax and so the the film uses um high frame rate technology it's 3d vfr in high dynamic range that's
what it's that's how it's described and so this means that when you go see a movie, most movies
are in 24 frames per second. So you're seeing 24 images in one second and your eye can only really
capture up to five images before it looks like it's all blended together as one singular shot.
So this movie has variants. Some shots are 24 and it expands all the way to 48 frames per second.
This has appeared in some movies in the last 10 or 12 years, probably most prominently in Peter Jackson's The Hobbit.
It also was in Gemini Man, a movie that we talked about on this show, the Ang Lee Will Smith action film.
There were a couple of other examples.
Actually, Billy Lynn's Long Halftime Walk, the other Ang Lee movie, he's been experimenting with this format.
But your mileage may vary on how you feel about how this looks because there are times when you see water droplets on a navi which
is an invented creature and you will think that it is really happening you think you will think
that he has traveled to pandora and then there are other times when something is moving at 48 fps
that there is a hyper real or ultra realness that
makes people feel like they've turned their television to soap opera mode yeah and you know
i love someone pushing the envelope in terms of what technology can achieve but it's so interesting
to watch it when it is non-perfected we are not yet at the place and and Cameron is a big Jim I heard you and he's
gonna come in here and yell at you it's just one man's opinion yeah but to my eye and every human
eye is different to my eye there are times when it fails him I think I was curious what you thought
I mean it didn't work for me and I do not have the level of technical sophistication that you do to to like completely understand when he was switching
from what i mean you could like see it with your eye but i wasn't sitting there being like okay
well that's the 48 frames per second and this is i couldn't clock that either honestly i know when
it's shifting but i don't know what number is that but the fact that it you can tell that something's
changing and sometimes it looks amazing and sometimes you're taken out of it and
you can kind of see the seams and i the thing that i kept thinking about throughout this which
which is kind of like well i guess it's sort of like soap opera mode there were certain moments
where i was like well this just looks like the commercial of a video game that i watch between
like you know whatever sporting events that goes on.
In video games, they're called cut scenes.
Yes.
Yeah.
And, you know, I think some of that is probably because the video game technology has, like, is flying off of what James Cameron did in Avatar and has, like, kind of caught up.
And some of that is just, like, my familiarity with this or lack of familiarity with this visual stuff but sometimes it looked a little junky i agree with you yeah it's tricky
because like when something is making such amazing strides the underwater stuff looks better than the
above shore stuff totally and the underwater stuff is not the water is not created it's shot in a
tank and it's motion capture performance underwater so if you try to wrap your mind around it,
I don't know how he did that.
I mean, it is amazing how it looks.
And there are sequences where there is like
a completely created giant creature and an alien
and they're communicating with each other
and it's all digital animation and it looks real.
And then there are other sequences
where there's one alien sitting on the shore
and it looks like a fake video game moment.
Yeah.
And so kind of reconciling both of those images
and both of those feelings in the same movie is very unusual,
because you know how painstaking the process was
to get the film to where it is.
So this is still an art form in development.
You know, it's not a finished product, ultimately.
It's as close to perfection as we can get, one would imagine,
since it took 10 years,
and since James Cameron is such a notorious,
at times, tyrannical perfectionist. It's just interesting because I think a lot of people will
see this movie, even in movie theaters, in the best possible conditions and will think,
this looks weird. And that's fascinating. It's not like going to see a Marvel movie now and
you'll be in the middle of the third act fight sequence and you'll think to yourself,
this looks like shit. It's not that it looks like shit. It just
looks off. And that's just interesting to me. I don't know if I have much more to say about it
than that. Yeah. I did also think to myself multiple times, like Marvel isn't shit. You
know, like I just thought I was like watching it and I was like, I would be so embarrassed if I
were anyone who had worked on an MCU movie in the last like five years.
But the thing is, is when they make those, when they do those pre-visualizations on the Marvel movies, they get a few months to do those sequences.
Yeah, sure.
And he took five years.
I know.
You know, like this movie went into production in 2017.
I get it.
Now, what do you think about the idea that we should have fewer films but longer production cycles for them?
Well, I personally, in my principles, feel great about that because I like people spending time to make things right or as close right as possible.
Like, don't ask for my time if it's halfway done is how I feel in life. All right.
I know that's probably not good for, like, you know, the business of films, which is what we talk about on this podcast.
Certainly not good for theaters.
There are some other issues.
But yeah, I expect you to try your best.
Okay.
When you show up with anything that you want me to watch.
I think there is a difference between try your best and try your longest.
But I do think that the Marvel stuff, like when you defend them and say, well, they only had like three or four months, it's because they're like compressing the amount of time and effort and they're trying to do it as efficiently as possible. And that has worked for them in like plenty of other ways. But like, I know you're cutting corners. I put on Twitter, which is just that this is not about introducing us to a long-known character who
may or may not be joining the universe. This is not
about a teaser or a stinger.
We're in the world, and that's the story.
And that's really all you need to know about or care about. And if you
don't want to care about that stuff, you probably don't have to to enjoy the movie.
That is true.
It does have something
similar, honestly,
just like to the fantasy
worlds that I don't really and fantasy is a
genre that i don't really engage with as much but you are just really in like jim's head you know
and he's been living this for like a really long time and the first one um for all of its like
problematic like colonialist undertones like was inviting you you know there
was some sort of like bridge into the world now the bridge itself it's like a problem and maybe
you're not supposed to be there but this one is just like you're with a man who's like been living
in a room dreaming about this stuff for 13 years or even longer than that and literally that's what
he said literally yeah this was in my head.
That quote's incredible
and involves him like fighting off 10 lawsuits.
God bless him.
But it's really intense.
It's really like you don't have to buy into the world
or know any of the lore
to enjoy the spectacle of this movie,
which is what I really appreciate
and what I think that Marvel has really lost.
But there is also like a real,
now we're just in this like fantasy world
with these people.
It's not super inviting.
For like a long time.
Yeah.
You gotta, you know,
and there's something that he's so dedicated to it
that makes it like slightly less accessible, I guess,
or inviting, as you said.
I think you're right.
The movie of his that this reminds me of the most, honestly, is Titanic.
Because...
What is...
Okay.
Chris isn't even here yet, but, like, get your shit together in terms of Titanic.
What are you talking about?
Just, like, get it together.
Like, because you don't like Titanic.
And I'm not going to do...
I didn't say that.
I'm not going to do this with you.
I don't...
I'm not going to...
I'm not going to do this with you. I need you to stop telling me what I do and'm not gonna do this with you I'm not gonna I'm not gonna do this with you
I need you to
stop telling me
what I do and don't like
on this podcast
but you're making
the angry face
that means I've hit
on like a truth
that you don't want
out of the world
because you're not
you didn't even let me
make my point
there is
there like
what's a funny thing
about this movie
is like the easter eggs
aren't to like
other avatars
in the Marvel way
but there are like
Jim Cameron easter eggs yeah which is really good avatars in the marvel way but there are like
jim cameron yeah which is really good and so i understand that titanic comparison here's the
reason i say that okay titanic is two different things it is this really classical yet syrupy
romance film and it is a big time engineering action blockbuster okay and it is those two
things operating simultaneously now this isn't a romance necessarily.
The first film is more of a romance.
It's a story about family
and a dad
and trying to protect that family.
But it is very treacly at times
and very sentimental
about the power of family.
Now, look.
New parents in the room.
I'm pretty...
I was pretty moved by the end of it,
honestly, looking at the giant aliens.
I was a little like... It caught my breath a couple of times. There is one scene in particular that
got me, even though I was kind of like, all right, Sully, stick together, like chill out, man.
You know? And likewise, the Titanic, which features some of the coolest practical filmmaking
ever put on screen. There are scenes in this film too, where it is like, this is an engineer's mind
at play. This is a person who truly understands the kind of kineticism that can be created with a movie camera.
And he's forcing you to confront it while also balancing your feelings in a kind of corny story.
You know?
He tells corny stories.
It is really corny.
I think I responded a little less because it is so dad focused.
Right, right.
You know?
That makes sense.
And the Zoe Saldana character is like completely sidelined in this movie.
I mean, she's not, but she does not get a lot to do.
She has significantly less to do than in the first film.
She does have a big emotional explosion in the film.
Whether or not that pays off, I don't really
want to spoil that, but I think that that's
also an interesting kind of reading of what
you make of James Cameron and how he
views certain characters in his world.
It's also, it's like,
sinking ships are in this movie.
I know.
A lot of jargon about
science and seafaring life.
Mm-hmm.
You know?
Yeah.
There's like power loader mecha suits like from Aliens.
Yeah, that was a very funny Easter egg that I really enjoyed.
Also, are we allowed to say who's on the loader suit?
On one of them memorably?
Or do we not want to spoil that?
No, it's like in the first 10 minutes of the movie.
Yeah, say it.
I don't know.
But did you know that was coming? No, I didn't know she was in the movie. Then let's not do it. Okay. Let's not say it first 10 minutes of the movie. Yeah. Say it. I don't know. But did you know that was coming?
Like, I didn't know she was in the movie.
Let's not do it.
Let's not say it because that is one of the, I love that.
The two funniest things that happened is that moment.
We both cracked up and then I'm not going to say, I just want to say that the credits
song is like, it's, it's fire.
Really, really up there with Will Smith doing like never had a friend Like Me or whatever he did with DJ Khaled for the Aladdin remake.
I lost my mind when it started.
I thought it was better.
I actually went out on a real high note on the movie because of that song.
Let's be clear that we're not actually reviewing the quality of the song or her enjoyment of it.
Just in terms of this is the choice that you made.
Really beautiful.
I love it i
need you all to stay in your seats and then just like think of me and know that for a moment i felt
joy so this has been pitched as a a quintet of films oh boy three films have already been filmed
he filmed two and three simultaneously i got it very smart Very smart. And so he started shooting it five years ago. We know there will be at least a third Avatar film.
He has said if two is a bomb or doesn't really work the way that the first film worked, then it will only be a trilogy.
Okay.
Now, what's next for this story is interesting.
Certainly the Sully family will continue to be at the center of the story, I would imagine.
Right.
It's related to box office predictions.
Okay.
There was some tracking that said that this movie is on pace in its first weekend worldwide
to make $525 million, which is staggering.
That is...
Worldwide.
Worldwide.
No, yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
But still, that's one third of Top Gun Maverick's box office, a film that played in theaters for like seven months.
Right.
In three days.
Right.
So, obviously, as you said, for a stretch of time, Avatar was the number one film at the box office for years and years until I think Avengers Endgame unseated it.
And I'm super interested to see how this does in the long term.
Because what we've seen in some recent blockbusters is we've seen movies come really strong out of the gate like wakanda forever is
an example of that and then really kind of slow down and then once it starts inching towards 700
800 million dollars it just kind of stops and the one counterpoint to that is top gun maverick which
made 1.5 billion dollars and is clearly head and shoulders the box office sensation of the year the first film made
2.922 billion where do you think this movie's going box office wise oh you want a number yeah
i want to damn make take a shot at it 1.7 billion do you think that would be considered a massive
success i mean no didn't james cameron like it, even if it beats the old records,
it will barely break even or something. That's crazy. Well, but that's also, you know, he'll get
the rock in to do the accounting for him and it'll be fine. Like, you know, that's the, that's the
third one. He's projecting technologies for future, whatever. I'm not gonna, as, as he also
said in GQ, you know, it's money they could spend on a movie or drilling oil somewhere.
So great job, Big Jim.
I guess 1.7 is good.
I have no idea what the weird business industry, what we'll consider a success.
I agree.
1.7 would be really good.
Yeah.
Really good.
You don't think it's going to happen?
I don't know.
I'm a little dubious.
Let me just give you anecdotally.
I shouldn't.
We didn't say this,
but you doubt Big Jim at your peril.
You doubt Big Jim at your peril.
And I will say,
I have been talking to people in my life
and primarily bitching about the fact
that all the movies I have to see
are an hour, three hours long.
And a lot of,
I just have a lot of people who are like,
oh yeah, we're going to go see that one,
who have not seen a movie this year,
or just kind of like, oh yeah, I did like Avatar.
People have a connection to it,
and people understand that this is an event.
So Derek Thompson, the great Derek Thompson,
the host of our Plain English podcast here
at the Ringer Podcast Network, is in the office today,
and I was just chatting with him this morning and we were talking about this.
And that's what he said.
He said that many, in his experience, also anecdotal, many people's relationship to movies
is the same relationship they have to amusement parks now.
Yeah.
And that it's like you want to get on the ride and you want to get on the ride with
Big Jim for four hours.
And that's our Saturday night opening weekend.
And that in many ways, this is kind of the ultimate example
because all you need to have seen
is maybe the first Avatar.
I think it would be kind of confusing
if you hadn't seen the first Avatar,
but so many people saw the first Avatar.
True.
So aside from that,
you don't have to do a lot of homework.
Yeah.
And it's just an event.
Here's the only counterpoint.
A friend I was talking to today
is going to go see it with her daughter,
but was like
we have something else on sunday and so i don't know if we have enough time to both see this
three-hour movie and do the other thing so you know i i don't think that that will keep everyone
away like long term but there is a little bit of planning that you have to do just to fit this
into your day it is a big commitment there's no question about that the big unknown is a little bit of planning that you have to do just to fit this into your day. It is a big commitment.
There's no question about that.
The big unknown is awards for this film.
Because the first film, obviously, was nominated for nine Academy Awards.
It won three all-below-the-line films.
It did compete to the bitter end for Best Picture.
Yep.
And it lost to The Hurt Locker which was of course directed by Cameron's
former wife
Catherine Bigelow.
Love it.
What about this year?
What do you think
it's going to do
awards wise?
I think absolutely
effects
all the way down.
It will win that
for sure.
It will win
it will probably win sound.
It will probably win
production design.
It was nominated
for
Best Picture at the golden globes in
drama as well as director which which is a fraught conversation that we we did um on a different
podcast that you can listen to but i but it is i do think a factor in the awards race this year
uh the critics choice awards also nominated it they tend to nominate everything, which that's cool. So, I mean, it's not how award shows work, but it's cool. They're critics.
They're advocates. Like, I'm fine with it. I don't know. I don't know. I know we had it in our
best 10 rankings, and I think probably doubt Big Jim at your peril and we should just go with it.
But I could see some voters in the best picture category just being a little turned off by the genre-ness of it.
How will they see it?
Will they watch it on the Academy portal?
I mean, if they do, if those cheapskates do that, then I don't know what to say.
I mean, maybe they'll start doing Academy screenings.
I'm certain that they will.
In fact, I got an invite for them yesterday.
Okay.
So they definitely will be having Academy screenings around the country.
I'm so interested.
I think you will probably be nominated for Best Picture. This is a really strong, critical reception thus far, and it's going to crush at the box office.
Yeah.
So I feel like it's going to get there.
Whether or not he gets
into director is interesting.
He's campaigning.
Oh yeah.
Yeah.
He's doing press
and he's very proud
of this film.
And he has a lot
to be proud of.
I mean,
he's in a class of his own.
Totally.
There's really,
and the way that he talks
about it is so interesting
because,
you know,
he's after some of the
similar spirit
that like a Steven Spielberg is where he's sort of like using these classical modes of
storytelling but also he's just such a gearhead you know and you know zach noted this and his
piece and the idea that like he can do virtually any job on a film set i think kind of i i don't
know if people in the industry are kind of flattered by that or just kind of like aghast at his his hubris.
But maybe it's some beautiful combination of both.
But, you know, he is Cecil B. DeMille.
He's John Ford.
He is a titan behind the camera.
And historically, Hollywood bows down to those titans.
That's true.
We'll see.
I still think yes for best picture, but we'll see. Anything else you
want to say about Avatar the Way of Water before we rank these Cameron movies? It's very Avatar,
you know? It is very Avatar. It's much Avatar to use like a form of meme language that was popular
in 2009. Do kids like Avatar? I think they do. This is another thing that I was really interested
that like the children watched it on at home on dvd
yeah and brian curtis said he's bringing his son or whatever yeah just chatting with him about that
yeah and i believe on the watch um andy greenwald said that his children saw the trailer and were
like that looks sick i do have one friend who tried to show his son the first avatar and they
saw like the image on the Disney Plus page.
And his son was like, nah, I'm out.
No, thank you.
So I don't know, not 100% kid approval rating.
We're doing small sample size theater right here.
It's just people we know who live in LA
who have children that may or may not be nine years old.
That person lives in New York, but sure.
Okay, yeah.
But also like 22 to 28 year olds.
Like Bobby, you're very familiar with Avatar apparently.
Wags, Avatar,
The Way of Water.
What's your,
what's opening night?
Probably not opening night
just because
I don't know if I'll be able
to get a ticket at this point.
I haven't bought one yet.
But like you've seen Avatar
a bunch of times, right?
Only twice.
Okay.
How old were you
when it was released?
13.
Sick.
Did you get dropped off
at the mall?
No, I saw it with my whole family.
Which is another thing.
I feel like people will be going to see it
over the next coming week.
So I feel like it will have a little bit of longevity
more than just opening weekend.
Oh, for sure.
And it's a movie that's going to play over Christmas.
There's not a lot up against it, honestly.
Yeah.
All right, well, that's Avatar The Way of Water.
I'm sure we'll talk about it more in the future.
It's success. It's awards prospects. Now let's bring in CR to talk about the James Cameron rankings. In 100 meters, turn right.
Actually, no. Turn left.
There's some awesome new breakfast wraps at McDonald's.
Really?
Yeah. There's the sausage bacon and egg.
A crispy seasoned chicken one.
Mmm. A spicy end egg. Worth the detour.
They sound amazing.
Bet they taste amazing, too.
Wish I had a mouth.
Take your morning into a delicious new direction with
McDonald's new breakfast wraps. Add a small premium roast coffee for a dollar plus tax
at participating McDonald's restaurants. Chris Ryan is here. Little Chris, as we say.
You've joined us. How are you, bud? I'm doing great, man. I live in a world where Christopher
Nolan detonated a nuclear device for the sake of cinema.
So I'm better than I was last week.
You're talking about Oppenheimer, which is a film we will talk about
that is being released on the same day as Greta Gerwig's
Barbie. But Chris Nolan is someone
whose name did not come up in our conversation about the way of water,
Amanda, although he is
in league in terms of
Big Tent filmmaking.
I would argue
he's behind Big Jim,
even despite some of my...
Oh, this is the energy that you're bringing?
Different opinions.
I don't know that...
Oh, this is complex because I'm...
Chris just shrugged.
That's what you're responding to.
Yeah, and he's also...
He made the emoji with the straight line across.
That was the face that I was getting.
And so I was prepared to go to a
little bit of war with you two about these rankings okay and advocate for different things and and
really just to advocate uh against sean's just complete ignorance when it comes to titanic
but i i kind of always when we do these rankings you know at the end of the day it's kind of like
well chris and sean voted for this and so i just have to like say these rankings, you know, at the end of the day, it's kind of like, well, Chris and Sean voted for this.
And so I just have to say yes.
Goddamn.
Hudson and Hicks.
Yeah.
That's why the Brendan Fraser episode was so annoying because I was like, oh, this is happening again.
But with Zach and bedazzled anyway.
Bedazzled.
What a heater.
But Chris coming in and being like, I don't know about this whole exercise.
I like this dimension.
I respect Jim,
but I think Chris is really more of a him than Jim is a him.
Oh, wow.
I just, I'm going to throw up.
That makes me sick to my stomach.
Do you like, let's, do you want to have this argument
or do you want to just say like for in the future,
there's like a Jim Awards for the filmmakers who are really Jim and whether or not Christopher Nolan has more Jim than Jim?
Not only is Jim him, there is only one him and he is Jim.
That's how I feel about that.
Okay.
I like Chris Nolan.
I've come around on him quite a bit in the last few years.
I know I have.
I have.
I've revisited his work.
You just want to have like a nice Christmas and not have people in your mentions yelling
at you.
And so you're just like, uh-huh.
Yeah.
Like when you ruined rewatchables?
Yeah.
Why?
I don't have any regret about that.
Inception is bad.
What is up with the Robert Redford slander?
Oh, I don't know.
That was one of those things where it's like a weird night out and then you're just like,
it's 3.30 in the morning. How did this happen? Like that was like, we're an hour and a weird night out and then you're just like, it's 3.30 in the morning.
How did this happen?
Like, that was like, we're an hour and a half into this podcast and we're just like pissing
all over Robert Redford.
I do understand.
We are over someone else's.
Bill was.
But like you and I were like, yeah, Bill.
I've read the history.
It's like, you know, I know what he's saying.
But also, I just, Robert Redford is very handsome.
So anyway.
Okay.
Is Jim Cameron handsome?
I don't, he's a handsome, as a filmmaker, you know, I don't know.
He makes handsome films.
He makes handsome films. They're so similar, you know.
They're two guys that you're surprised they're not American, you know.
Jim, Canadian.
Chris, English, but spends a lot of time here.
Two guys full of technical innovation, have done so much for cinema.
But then on the other hand, maybe they have a hard time with human emotions, you know? Yeah. And depicting them
realistically. This is amazing. You coming on the Big Jim podcast and just being like,
now I'm going to make him not Christopher Nolan. I love you. Sean seems disappointed. This is what
you get for having me be a middle reliever on your pot. When I come in and I'm just like,
I don't know the game state.
But you know what?
In Sean's defense, which is a phrase I've never said on this podcast before and probably never will again.
You're just out here being like, I'm not going to see way of water.
I'm going to see it.
I'm going to see it.
Again, that's not convincing.
Like, I brought my A game today.
Could you both just like stand up and get ready to talk about Big Jim?
Let's go.
What are we doing?
I feel like I'm in a room with Sam Esmail again.
I'm just kidding.
The insinuation that I didn't bring my A game is troubling.
You're just out here being like, I don't know.
I don't care about boats.
No one ever said that.
Here's the thing.
Nolan has made already in his life 12 films.
In his entire career, James Cameron has made nine movies.
I guess technically 11 with two documentaries to his name,
though we're not going to include those in the rankings.
And also one of which is first film, Piranha 2, colon, The Spawning.
He effectively disowned.
When are we going to talk about that?
Piranha 2.
We can talk about it right now because I think it's probably the worst film he's ever made,
but it actually has some cool stuff in it.
But do you think that that is largely due to the quality of the film or the way that
piranhas have fallen out of mainstream culture?
You had your coffee this morning, huh?
No, because...
Yeah, well, hold on.
Go ahead.
Go ahead.
But are you worried about piranhas as somebody who loves the ocean or the water?
It's true that the branding on piranhas has not really stayed at a level where I'm afraid of them.
Are piranhas extinct?
I don't think so.
Were they ever alive?
I guess is the question.
Were they ever alive in the way that they have been portrayed in cinema?
Like in Bond movies.
Yes.
Where it's just like, here's my tank of piranhas that cleans bodies down to the bone.
So I think that they've been overstated on screen.
This movie is a sequel to the original Piranha,
which is a Joe Dante movie,
a Roger Corman production,
one of the great kind of like exploitation,
kind of grindhouse post-Jaws horror movies
of the 1970s.
Very funny movie.
Piranha 2 is even more ridiculous
because the piranhas truly fly through the air.
Yeah.
And they fly like miles out of the ocean.
You know what I mean?
Like they are airborne in a
profound way and so the movie is really silly yes and there are some parts that are very scary and
there are a lot of underwater sequences that are kind of amazing and you can see even at this young
age he's got a real knack for telling stories this way but it's a it's a sequel to a knockoff
made by a small, cheap studio.
Yeah.
It's Piranha 2.
It's Troma.
You know, like, whatever it is.
It's pre-Troma Troma.
I just wonder whether or not it is long-term,
like, maybe suffered a little bit
because Piranhas haven't been holding up their end of the bargain.
Okay.
If there were a couple more stories per year
in the failing New York Times
about Piranha attacks happening on the East Coast,
I think we would get a little
bit more of a piranha to the spawning revival.
So you think that
Jaws is Jaws
in your mind because
the sharks are hanging out. Basically, those two films are
similar achievements, but the sharks
have stayed in our consciousness.
Okay.
This is incredible energy from you
right now. I'm just on crack so far in this pod. Just chaotic.
Let me just ask.
Can I be serious for a second? Go ahead. You go ahead.
Well, so we're putting Piranha 2 at number nine, right?
Yeah, I think that's right.
I would honestly say Aliens of the Deep is better than Piranha.
The documentary Aliens of the Deep. Yeah. So we're not going to talk about Aliens of the Deep or Ghosts of the Abyss too much. Aliens of the Deep. Well, forget it. I don't want to talk about it. I just wanted to check in with Chris again about his attitude.
Just because, you know, in addition to Big Jim being like a nascent, but I think pretty important character in your stable.
For sure.
Big Jim at Cafe Figaro.
I really, I would like more of it in the coming weeks.
Just as a little request.
But the sea is also really important to you.
Is this really the sea, though?
Isn't this a computer game?
Okay.
Wow.
You'll have to be the judge of that when you see the film.
Yeah.
I mean, we're not talking about a perfect storm.
That's true.
And anytime you want to do that, feel free.
But just over the course of his career, this is a man who also feels that the sea is dope.
This guy loves the sea.
And I love Jim for loving the sea.
Yeah.
I'm sure you guys have addressed this
in the beginning part of this podcast,
but is there anything bittersweet
about this guy dedicating
literally the second half of his career
to this project?
It's challenging because
I think as a fan of the sea,
there's so much that you're going to love
about this movie.
I'm going to see it. I'm going to see it.
I'm going to see it.
I'm not a huge Avatar fan.
I don't know about that, though.
As a fan of the sea,
it's beautiful.
As a fan of real life,
Chris might be in my boat
a little bit.
There's some seafaring stuff here
that we have.
We didn't talk at all
about the poaching aspect
of this story.
But the poaching aspect
of this story is Chris Kaur.
It is like,
when I was watching it,
I was like,
this has got CR's blood in it.
Oh, yeah.
Okay, a little bit.
Oh, my God.
Okay, well, we'll talk after you.
So, you guys,
I'm going to give you
the benefit of the doubt
and say the two of you
right now, I guess,
need to rank Avatar 2
in this list.
My gut is that it's number eight.
Wow. What do you think? you think so you think that this film
is superior to the first no i don't um and yeah i just don't for a number of reasons it's bigger
and it's maybe even more of a technical achievement though the first has the element of being the signature innovation yeah the innovation
it it like maybe corrects some of the story aspects and you know like the um
dances with wolves of the first one but also doesn't totally develop the characters in the
other way so you know i don't know i don't think it's better than the other way. So, you know, I don't know.
I don't think it's better than the first one.
And I don't think it's better than anything on this list except for,
and please don't give me a Blu-ray lecture when I say that I wasn't able to re-watch The Abyss.
This is a major issue.
I just, like, I don't want it.
You know, I don't want to hear from you. I don't want a Blu-ray lecture about the abyss is what you're saying.
Yes.
So here's the thing about the abyss.
Can't get it on Blu-ray.
It has not been released or remastered recently.
I have a copy on DVD.
Okay.
I recently learned by our friend Tim Simons that those are two different things.
They are two different things.
And how dare you.
He was like, say Blu-ray and not DVD.
And I was like, thank you.
If you could teach me with like action steps like that, just concise. He was like, just so you know, no longer DVD. Now it's a Blu-ray and not DVD. And I was like, thank you. If you could teach me with like action steps like
that, just concise. He was like, just so you know, no longer DVD, now it's a Blu-ray. Great.
That's, I can work on that. Small words. Speak affirmatively.
Where do you stand on The Abyss? I love it. It's honestly been quite some time since I've seen it.
And as I was getting ready for this podcast, found that I was not able to.
Sure.
There is a challenge in this ranking because of that.
I think because it's a film that is a little harder to see.
And when you do see it,
and this is also true of True Lies.
True Lies is streaming right now on Peacock
and it looks like absolute shit on Peacock.
Right.
The transfer is really bad.
Awful.
And has also not been issued on Blu-ray.
Okay.
So...
Why did you look at me angrily when you said that?
God damn it, Amanda.
Has not been issued on Blu-ray.
Who do you blame for this?
Is this Big Jim tinkering?
Is this...
I think with The Abyss,
it's Big Jim tinkering.
With True Lies,
I'm not sure if it's a rights issue.
You know, the other thing with True Lies
is it has come under some criticism
in the last 20 years
for some of its insensitive portrayals.
Crimson Jihad is the name of
the villain. Yeah.
And so how
willing you are to go along with
the tongue-in-cheek aspect of that entire movie
and its portrayal of the villains or not, I think is
up to the viewer, ultimately.
Those are two
movies that have... Also, how sentimental
you are about the bridges of Miami.
I love that scene, though.
That whole sequence is pretty crazy.
What's it called?
The Intercontinental?
What's the thing?
The Intercauseway?
Yeah.
The Causeway.
Actually, I said that Titanic is very similar to The Way of Water,
but The Way of Water is also very, very similar to True Lies and The Abyss
in that it's kind of a mixed bag, and the highs are so high,
and then there are stretches that are a little bit stuck.
So I'm inclined to put The Way of Water at eight.
Eight and then.
The Abyss is so hard.
It just needs an asterisk, I think.
Okay.
It's been, it's just been tough.
It's like I, you can watch like clips on YouTube.
It's not streaming.
It's the DVD version. Is that the collector's
edition or the special edition that had the
re...
Because there was a lot of Mary Elizabeth Mastrantonio
stuff that they didn't make in the movie
that she was heartbroken about it not being included.
Is that in the DVD that you have?
I don't believe so. No.
So
I guess it's at
number seven. There is a case to be made
like there are some critics
who are kind of
working hard to drive left
that will say like
that is his masterwork
or whatever
because it is
a truly original story
it's not
set in a kind of
fantastical world
even though it has
a kind of science fiction
element to it
it's like a deeply metaphysical
and spiritual story
again a lot of
The Way of Water
is in the abyss and vice versa they are very connected films it's unfortunate i it would be
amazing if they just reissued the abyss in movie theaters because i never saw it in a movie theater
and so i i feel like you're kind of missing out on a lot of the intent and that's true of all of
his movies i i guess if we put the abyss at seven true lies is probably going at number six and then
the hard work begins what do you think about that?
You want True Lies higher, Chris?
No.
I actually,
I was actually always a little bit like
lower on True Lies.
I think we've had
these conversations.
I can't remember why
this came up before,
but you were like,
True Lies is pretty good.
And I was like,
I never really liked
that movie that much.
So to me,
one of the things
that is missing
from The Way of Water,
I said this to you right
as we exited the theater,
was what happened
to Jim's sense of humor?
Because I always thought
True Lies was pretty funny. I always thought
Tom Arnold and Bill Paxton in that movie
gave that movie, you know, similar to what
Bill Paxton gives Aliens, similar
to what you find in the kind of like
the needle drops in some of the one-liners in the
Terminator films. You know, James
Cameron was known for, you know, like a slightly
kind of bro-y, dad-ish sense of humor,
but he had a sense of humor. And the Avatar
films are not really about that.
They're not...
Not a lot of laughs.
Not a lot of laughs.
So,
I think that's one of the reasons
I like True Lies.
Do you think in Avatar 3
we get like a Nick Kroll Navi
just to kind of do some one-liners?
Do some...
Do some alts?
I'm not saying I want that.
Yeah, but...
It might help.
It could.
Yeah.
It could.
I also kind of like True Lies
despite like everything about True Lies.
And I think there is some, it's the humor and like the tiniest bit of self-awareness.
Yeah.
Like a tiny bit.
Not that much.
It's definitely a movie made by a guy who's recently been divorced.
Could have used more.
But yeah, it's at least, it's having a little fun.
It's fun.
Yeah, it's at least, it's having a little fun. It's fun. Yeah, it's fun.
And Jamie Lee Curtis
is unbelievable in it
and is, you know,
so funny and so hot
and, you know,
it's...
Five is fine.
I have it at six.
Oh, I mean six.
Sorry.
I saw six at five.
Six is fine and then...
Now it gets complicated.
Now it's tough, right?
Because you've got...
So that leaves us with
Aliens,
Terminator 2,
Titanic, Avatar,
and the original Terminator film.
Yeah.
Make a bid.
Make the argument as to why
Avatar is above
any of the other movies.
I don't know that I have a case.
When I saw Avatar,
and I have told this probably
to you both on Mike in the past,
but I don't recall ever having
that exact sensation before
while watching that
not just I don't how did they do this
but how is this really like how did
how is this really happening now that's admittedly like
a kind of wide-eyed and
and fanboyish kind
of reaction to a movie but
at a certain point I think there's such a cult
to Cameron because he's able to render grown humans gobsmacked right not very many filmmakers can do
that there haven't been a lot of movies that were able to do that to me since that movie and so the
case for it is it is one of like the last true profound innovations to cinema the same way that
the introduction of sound or integrating technicolor or,
you know, like there are these
hallmark moments
and that he has worked hard
to introduce a handful of these.
I mean, Terminator 2 is a hallmark moment
in movie history.
It is like,
when they show the clip
of the greatest films ever made,
invariably you see the T-1000 morphing
in one of those images
because you're just like,
what the fuck?
I've never seen that before. So to me, the is for it is not that it's like a great story or
that you know it's a really good performance by sam worthington it's like it changed things in
in some ways yeah yes but and this is a function i think of our age and of when we come to movies
even like t2 which i famously only
saw like two years ago but have seen well whatever i'm laughing but but have seen clips of and also
like have lived in a world after where movies were made after t2 which combines all of the technical
stuff that and the and the action set pieces that you're talking about with
like the jim cameron movie like world like emotional character beats which are um can be
stock and undercooked but also like resonant you know and t2 the story is completely absurd
and you're still invested in the relationship between
you know the terminator and the kid like you you know that you're being manipulated like it's it's
so broad and that's part of the point but it does all fit together and avatar is like a singular
technical achievement and maybe even like an experiential achievement you're just like wow
i've never been or two of the movies like that
or seen anything like that but i think there are very few people who have the the same like
emotional movie language connection to it i think it's achievements i don't know how to articulate
it other than i've never ever really been it's never occurred to me to watch avatar again since
i saw it in theaters and I watch his other movies
all the time.
The other movies
on this list
above Avatar
I've seen
dozens of times.
So just before you came in
we were discussing
like how
some of our friends' kids
are feeling about
the prospect of the way of water
and what their relationship
to it is.
Cool podcast that we have.
I'm glad you came.
Well my
point being more like,
you know,
Terminator 2 hit
at a critical moment.
Aliens hit at a critical moment
in our development
as movie fans,
to your point.
Titanic hit
at a critical moment.
Yes.
It did.
And,
you know,
I'm already mad at both of you.
You were in your 30s
when Avatar came out.
Mm-hmm.
You know,
like,
the point being,
it's a little bit harder
to be swept away
or to feel like it is something that is kind of like biochemically changing you as when you if you're 12 and you see it in theaters and you just feel like, God.
So wait, what did you guys decide that kids were psyched for a way of water?
Some were and some weren't.
Yeah.
More were than weren't.
Here, let me let me do this another way.
The only other film that I will accept at number five is The Terminator.
So I thought about that.
So that's it.
Now the Terminator has a little bit of a Piranha 2 issue,
which is just like,
it was cheap.
It was made cheaply on the conversely.
That's kind of the case for it.
It's like,
it's made cheaply and it looks like that.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And it created that mode of storytelling,
that kind of like dark metal that he really had a grasp on
that just felt like an embodiment of a time
in which Metallica and Danzig were making music
and neon lights in bars was a vibe.
LA was scary in a different kind of way.
The world was dingy and metallic.
And in a way, not unlike Avatar, he just keeps kind of creating it was like the world was dingy and metallic and in a way not unlike avatar like he
just keeps kind of creating these like visual modes that we come back to and we see people
rip off over and over and over again you know avatar you might think it's not that influential
because nobody can do what jim cameron can do it's just everybody who's doing something like
it is doing a really shitty version of it yeah i just i mean influence or not i just i'm never
like the movie yeah i just don't like the movie as much. Yeah, I just don't like the movie as much, so I'm totally fine.
If we want to put Avatar
above Terminator because it's such a completely
different level of technological
and filmmaking achievement, that's fine.
I think we all know where the fight's gonna
happen. Okay, I'm gonna
accede to this because I just don't have
the passion for Avatar the movie.
I have rewatched it a couple times this year
to get ready for this, but I'm with you, Chris. I don't pop it in. avatar the movie i i have re-watched it a couple times this year to get ready for this but i'm with you chris like i don't i don't pop it in i the other challenge is
is that terminator 2 and aliens those movies play at home and avatar doesn't play at home
so without it it gets dinged so number four is the terminator fair to say yeah so then we get
into tier one and to jim cameron's credit, these three movies, they're the best movies ever made.
Aliens, Terminator 2, Judgment Day, and Titanic.
Is Aliens your second favorite movie of all time?
No.
Third?
No.
I don't think it's in like the top 10, but it's-
Would it be on your BFI sight and sound list?
Like my top 100?
Yeah.
Top 25?
No, but you only get to submit 10.
Oh, I can only put 10 in for the BFI list?
Yeah.
I don't know if it would be
in my top 10,
but it's pretty high.
No, but I love it.
Okay.
But no.
Okay.
We did do this in the movie swap?
We did.
Yeah.
Yeah.
What did we swap with?
Was that...
Four Weddings and a Funeral.
Four Weddings and a Funeral.
That was a sick episode.
You're just a Philistine,
but anyway.
I put Aliens above T2,
personally.
What do you think, as someone who has only recently come to those films in the last few years?
I responded more to T2.
You did?
I did.
It was more of a complete package for me, even though I guess I'm betraying the sisterhood with that one.
Because I'm supposed to be Team Ripley forever, and I am Team Ripley, but I like alien more than aliens.
And you do as well?
I like them equally in different ways.
I was just going to say that I've never seen you more put to a test in my life.
But it's like choosing my two sons, you know?
My two xenomorph sons.
This is tough.
I don't have a strong feeling. I mean, I know that I like Titanic the least of these three, but that's not saying a lot, honestly. We. This is tough. I don't have a strong feeling.
I mean, I know that I like Titanic the least of these three,
but that's not saying a lot, honestly. We know that about you.
But that's not saying a lot.
What about him?
Because I haven't come out publicly about this yet.
Yeah.
What did I come out publicly about?
This Titanic slander is...
I'm waiting until...
What are you going to do?
I'm waiting very late to announce my endorsement.
The movie spot that we did where I finally watched T2
was...
I revisited Titanic.
You revisited...
But that's not a movie swap.
That's not...
But the way you positioned it,
it was like,
Titanic, are we sure?
Which is insane.
But that wasn't where I netted
in that conversation.
Yeah, but you were like,
it's pretty good.
You can't keep making points
that are convenient
for your larger point of view on the show.
We need to stick to the text.
We have to stick to the raw materials
that are provided by the people talking into my voice.
It goes well usually when you change the rules of the podcast
halfway through the podcast on me.
One of my great skills.
I think if I could be a little bit controversial here,
I would say that Terminator 2 is the third best Jim Cameron movie. Wow.
And then Titanic and Aliens are in the
top one too here for me.
Gosh.
A lot of favor trading going
on here. So what's your... City Hall.
Yeah. Is your instinct
T2-1, Aliens 2?
Or is your instinct Aliens 1,
Aliens 1, T2-2?
Titanic. Titanic 32, Titanic 3?
Is Titanic definitely?
I don't know.
Okay.
Well, why don't you talk it out?
Well, one, I don't want to discount Titanic so quickly.
I don't think that that would be the right thing to do.
I think if you take into consideration all of the things we've located about the other films,
which is the filmmaking, how invested you are in the story, the kind of external success and innovation, right?
He's the master of all of those things.
And it all comes to a summation in Titanic.
Yes.
And this is the first time that he becomes the true box office king.
He becomes the king of the world.
He wins Best Picture.
He launches Leonardo DiCaprio and Kate Winslet to a kind of megastardom.
You know, she is arguably the actress of her generation, at least from a kind of taste
perspective.
From a watch perspective?
From the watch podcast, multiple-time guest.
Leonardo DiCaprio, without question, the movie star of his generation.
So he gets a little bit of that.
Leonardo DiCaprio has also been on the watch a bunch of times.
He just doesn't talk.
Interesting.
He just is wearing the mask.
He's hanging in the back.
He's on the Zoom.
Off-camera or on-camera guy?
That's great, yeah.
He's just off-camera listening into live recordings.
Yeah, he just says Leo. Yeah. Well, that's because he's getting ready for his character work as you, Chris. He's on the Zoom. Off camera or on camera guy? That's great, yeah. He's just off camera listening into live recordings. Yeah, he just says Leo.
Yeah.
Well, that's because
he's getting ready
for his character work
as you, Chris.
That's right.
Oh my God.
He would be so good as you.
Just potting.
Crank Daddy.
The CR story.
I'm at a loss
for how to do this.
I know this is the point
of this podcast.
Well, you have to make
some sort of proposal.
You have a very strong opinion.
Titanic is your number one, right?
It is my number one.
Aliens is my number one.
I kind of think T2 is my number one.
Okay.
So how do we figure this out?
T2 is...
You seem the least convinced
by your number one.
I think that I am.
I think that I am.
Because Terminator 2 is not perfect,
even though it is
exceptional.
Aliens is closer
to perfect to me.
Mm-hmm.
They both have a little
bit of an issue
which is that they're
both sequels
and so they are not
inventing a world.
Like it's a little hard
with Aliens
to give it too much credit
because to me
Ridley and
Ridley.
No, Ridley.
Ridley Scott.
Oh. Yeah.
Oh, yeah.
And H.R. Giger and...
Dan O'Bannon.
Walter Hill.
Sigourney Weaver and Walter Hill.
And all of those people who kind of like originated so much of the core world.
They get a lot of the credit for that.
Now, he elevated it and redefined it.
I would say my argument for the movie has a lot to do with that. Now, he elevated it and redefined it. I would say my argument for the movie has a lot to do with that
because I think that as a technical
filmmaker, as an innovator,
he's unparalleled. As a storyteller
and as a person who writes characters,
he leaves a lot to be desired.
So for me, the fact...
That's basically what we said about The Way of Water, honestly.
That is true. We didn't say that about Jack
and Rose, Chris. Well, that's the thing.
I also have a hard time now separating Titanicanic i'll never let go okay separating titanic from the capital t like
album thriller like popular culture phenomenon that it was i think i saw that movie five times
in the movie theater regardless of whether or not like i had any agency in that i was just like
going to see titanic a bunch is what you did.
Same.
I was in the same boat.
I know you were.
Literally.
You were on the Titanic?
I know you're old,
but are you that old?
No.
But would you guys,
straw poll,
participate in a submarine excavation
of the Titanic
the way Jim Cameron did?
That sounds like a good episode
of the show.
I filmed the Titanic
at the Titanic.
That was his quote. I don the show. I filmed the Titanic at the Titanic. That was his quote.
I don't know.
I love the sea, but submarines are not really kind of my jam, you know?
Yeah.
Claustrophobia?
Well, I just, I like natural light, you know?
Oh, yeah.
So I can't think of a place I'd rather go less than the Mariana Trench.
Yeah.
Yeah, I'm not interested in that either.
And yet I'm fascinated by his desire to conquer those spaces.
Yeah.
So, do you want to make any case for Titanic now?
Like, the same with Chris?
I think it is the most obvious, number one, which is perhaps why we are resisting it.
But James Cameron is, like, the bard of the obvious.
That is what he has made successful and also you know has turned
into an art form and like what we like about him is that he does these like really broad almost like
stupid amazing things or these very archetypal like shallow characters or he just, he does the essential and you're just like,
yeah.
Yeah.
So that,
I mean, he just,
he sank the Titanic literally on screen.
And he was,
he,
he was smart enough.
I think to know that he had,
if he pulled it off,
he had the sinking of the Titanic.
And then he was like,
what do people like a rich girl and a poor guy?
Yeah.
Falling in love,
screwing in a Cadillac yeah he
makes um what I will very uh humbly describe as steaming up the windows as uh as mega cinema
right yeah all of his movies have a kind of like 10 ton quality and it's all it's been often said
I don't know who originated this idea but most of his movies work as silent films you know you can
basically follow along with what's happening in all of his movies in a way that very few filmmakers
can i how i mean if we make this list and we let's just say for the sake of conversation titanic is
number one aliens is number two and terminator 2 is number three is that is that right i think that
aliens is a better movie for more of the movie. And then I think Titanic at its heights is unlike anything we'll ever experience in a movie theater.
When the fucking boat starts going down, you're just like, this is happening.
I can't believe he pulled this off and this is so amazing.
A lot of what you're saying about watching Avatar, except it has an emotional quality to it that I think that Avatar doesn't
but I think
Aliens has
parts
like Aliens is good
the entire time
Aliens is on
Titanic for me
is good
for the last hour
one of the tricky
parts about
these most recent
films is that
they're all really
long
the Cameron films
and the first few
films are not
as long
and so
points docked because he stretches them.
Bobby, T2, Titanic, and Aliens.
What would be your personal ranking of those three?
Bobby.
Bobby, Bobby, Bobby.
I feel as though Amanda's threatening me
by saying my name in a kind of nice way.
I haven't seen T2, so I can't judge.
Oh my God.
Well, you're disqualified.
What do you think of Aliens?
I'm disqualified.
I think it's dope.
Aliens is dope.
What do you think of Titanic?
It's also dope.
Yeah.
I guess that means T2 is a three
if Wags hasn't even
sought it out,
for Christ's sake.
Well,
that was your number one movie,
wasn't it?
Like of all time?
No, on this Jim Cameron list.
No, I...
I... I think I'm caping for it
because I know that
you're going to go hard for Aliens.
So in order to create
some sort of triumvirate,
if it were my personal list,
it would probably be
Aliens T2,
Titanic,
the Terminator avatar,
which is pretty close
to where we are.
So you're both doing Aliens then?
Yes. Yeah. No, I know know i came here i like i knew the question was would it be t2 or aliens no my titanic's number we always do this you know
zodiac one social network two like it's fucking fine i don't care history will show that i have
the best taste where will they show i am a lone wolf. You know, like I stand with my enemies.
You can either be a lone wolf or have the best taste.
The lone wolf doesn't also have the best taste.
Yes, sure I do.
I'm alone in my principles that are right.
And it's fine.
And Bobby just plays Celine Dion as we go out, okay?
You're here. There's nothing I fear. out okay i just got here we got to keep talking about about jim cameron so i don't do you realize
that we have put you in a position to burnish your legend more greatly than you ever could
have done by yourself though do you like do you at least acknowledge that we've allowed you to be iconoclastic in this space?
I have to tell you,
it is not iconoclastic to be like,
Titanic is a really good movie.
Like, that's the fucked up part.
I'm just a voice of sanity who is ignored.
If there was a straw poll of all living humans
who have seen all of the Cameron films,
let's make that the minus piranha too.
Right.
If you've seen all eight of the mega
classics that he's
made do you think
Titanic would come in
at number one?
Yes.
Well have you seen
them of your own
volition or like have
you seen them because
you're like oh I want
to go see it.
You've been clockwork
orange.
Well it's just like
are you the type of
person that's like ooh
James Cameron movie I
like need to go see it
or are you just a person in the world?
Because, you know, I think people who...
He makes movies for both.
Sure, but I think the people in the world are going to say Titanic.
I agree with you.
And I think the nerds are going to say Aliens.
I'm not so sure about that.
I think you and I might be in a bubble here.
No, you're not.
I asked Zach also and he said Aliens.
Well, he's in the bubble with us.
He's in the bubble with us.
He's the captain
of the bubble ship.
We've literally been
in a 20-year bubble.
So you asked another
40-year-old white man
whether he thinks
aliens is better than Titanic?
I was just curious.
No, I was curious
between him and T2.
I didn't think
he was going to say Titanic.
I know what I'm dealing with.
I wake up every day
and I face this shit
at home and at work.
Can you step outside of it for a second? No. Do you think there are going to say Titanic. I know what I'm dealing with. I wake up every day and I face this shit at home and it works. Can you step outside of it for a second?
No.
Do you think there are any flaws with Titanic?
I mean, the boat looks old now.
That's not the flaw.
What?
I meant the fucking depiction of the Irish.
The mediocre storytelling.
Come on.
The incredibly hackneyed.
It's not hackneyed they need to be
together watch our movie made in 1925 to 1997 it's fine like obvious isn't bad it isn't always
i agree that's why when you go into an alien mother's lair pit and you blow that shit up
i'm like maybe i've seen it before but never this good
you see is there a lot of alien mother lairs hell yeah man like all every 50s
like yeah that's true a lot of planetoid movie is about that
jack and rose though titanic was called the ship of dreams and it was okay do you at least acknowledge that you have your
own set of blinders why are they blinders i have preferences yeah well we're blinded by love sure
i'm on record as saying i was more of a matt damon gal you know but like it's that story is
undeniable.
Do they actually rearrange the deck chairs in that movie?
They have the band playing.
Yeah, but do they ever like move stuff?
Or is that just like a joke?
I think that's a joke, but
the violinist is like, you know,
let's like go down with honor or whatever, you know.
That clip does exist.
Does Billy Zane live?
It's been a while. I believe he does.
I think he flops
like on a boat
at the last minute.
He pretends to be.
But so then
when Kate Winslet lives,
she gives her name
as Rose Dawson
because Leo's name
is Jack Dawson
and she escapes him
that way.
Oh yeah,
because there's that
last shot of him
like looking for her
at various places
and I think he believes she doesn't make it on the boat.
Billy Zane's character in that film reminds me of Theo James' character from The White Lotus.
Yeah, totally.
They have a lot in common.
You haven't seen that show.
No, I haven't.
You know, a really funny part about Titanic is that, so to put you on Rose's side, she's an art collector and she just like buys a lot of like Picassos and Degas.
And Billy Zane's character is like, what is this junk?
And it's the most obvious shit in the world.
I love Jim Cameron so much.
Is that how she's able to fund her submarine?
No.
Something Picasso.
Isn't that what he says?
Yes, exactly.
No, Chris.
They wind up at the bottom of the ocean.
No, I know.
But when she's old and Bill Paxton is showing her like they're getting in, don't they get in a submarine?
I think she's just on the ship.
Oh, okay.
It's not clear to me why the footage from the ship couldn't just like be taken to her wherever she lives in California.
Right.
Guys, we got to wrap this up.
Okay.
Listen to me.
If we made Titanic number one, but this was the last.
I don't want it.
This was...
Just hear me out.
Jesus, Amanda.
If this was the last episode of the big picture and you were out of a job, but Titanic got
to be number one, would you be okay with that?
Why are those my two picks?
That's the option.
It's either quitting time or it's aliens.
It's Titanic number one, but the big picture ends right now.
So I get to be a hero again by saying
no, aliens can be number one
and the big picture goes on?
Correct. Like so many
hearts.
That was beautiful. Thank you for that.
I don't feel good about it.
It's fine. I think she has a point.
I'll tell you what. Let's make Titanic number one.
No. I don't. I don't want your pity. It's fine. I think she has a point. I'll tell you what. Of course I do. I'll tell you what. Let's make Titanic number one. No. I don't. You got it.
No.
I don't want your pity.
No, no, no.
I don't want your pity.
It's not pity.
We're not pitying one of the biggest movies of all time.
I cried.
I'm not too big to admit that.
Yeah.
Did you shed a tear during Titanic?
In the 90s, certainly, when I first saw it.
Yeah, of course.
Of course.
I'm not made of stone.
I saw it in Ireland.
She dies a little lady warm in her bed, just like he said he would.
He said she would, yeah.
That's right, that's right.
But Jack, he fucking froze
because she wouldn't make a little more room.
I know.
She was just like,
no, I have to have my leg pillow.
So selfish.
Stretched out.
My wife would definitely let me die, by the way.
Do you think Eileen would make room for you?
No.
Yeah, I don't think Phoebe would.
Would you move over for Zach?
Yes.
Yeah, see? Yeah, I would. And yet you wouldn't move over for christmas aliens but you win and never again can you say
that you don't get to win these if people don't listen to the podcast and they just look at the
list they'll be like that's right i'm very excited to read to you both the james cameron rankings as
dictated by the big picture podcast number nine piranha to
the spawning number
eight avatar the way of
water number seven the
abyss there is an
asterisk next to this
because I think we
wouldn't it be nice if
the three of us could go
see it together and we
could experience James
Cameron's vision
number six is true lies
it's like I'm winning
but number five is
avatar number four is
the Terminator number is The Terminator.
Number three is Terminator 2 Judgment Day.
Number two is Aliens.
And number one is Titanic.
I'm recognizing that it's weird for me to walk into a room halfway through a podcast
and be like, this fucking thing chest bursting is the number one movie.
When Titanic is like one of the biggest movies of all time.
And I love it.
I feel confident in your love for me.
So you can just vote for Aliens if you want.
It's okay.
It's about him.
Yeah.
And it's just...
While we're thinking about it,
I'm going to bring the temperature down a couple.
Just to mention a couple of, you know,
like maybe not filmic achievements of Jim Cameron,
but things I think should be recognized as achievements just the same.
Okay.
Building a fire retardant house in Malibu.
He's been sold it.
Being part of the sort of non-governmental organization
that is making efforts to colonize Mars.
Being a huge proponent of a plant-based lifestyle.
Sure, yeah.
And has a company with Peter Jackson to make plant-based cheeses.
Okay.
Among other foods.
Okay.
Who does it better than Jim?
And also...
Yeah, two more.
Fucking waste...
We could have had five fucking Jim Cameron movies,
but that guy keeps building submarines and being like,
here's an undiscovered part of the deep for the Disney Channel.
Or National Geographic or whatever.
I'd like to congratulate you on your fine work on today's episode.
Seriously.
This is terrible. terrible like everyone just
leaves in defeat
Amanda won
Titanic number one
thank you for helping us
aliens number two
thanks for bringing
a modicum of decency
to this podcast
I just tried to sort it out
I even took notes
in longhand
like Robert Caro
nice work
is there anything
that you didn't get to say
that you can read
from the graph paper now
do you think jim's did anybody notice when i tried to wrap this up do you think jim compensates for
the technical mastery and infatuation with the mechanics of filmmaking with a pretty and then
i got distracted by the world cup and stopped writing okay and then all right i have another
line here that says the duality of the external world.
I don't know what that's about.
I think it's about
being afraid of something
and also mesmerized by it.
I'm dying.
And then I can't read.
Avatar as a metaphor
for this professionally hermetic filmmaker
retreating into the world
of his own creation.
Thanks for your contributions, Chris.
I was happy, but now I'm happy.
That was good.
Thanks to Bobby Wagner
for his work
cleaning up this
absolute nightmare of an episode.
We'll have three episodes
for you next week.
We're coming back three times.
Talking about the best
animated movies of 2022
and neither of you were invited.
Are you going solo for that?
Me and Charles Holmes.
Okay.
And then
the 2019 movie drafts
is how we're
leading up to the holidays.
How are you guys feeling about that?
I feel
fan-fucking-tastic
about 2019.
I do too.
I do as well.
We were so happy then.
Yeah.
Yeah, we were.
Simpler time.
Let's go back to that
simpler time next week.
Thanks, guys. you