The Big Picture - ‘Ballerina,’ ‘Bring Her Back,’ and ‘Dogma’ Reborn, with Kevin Smith!!!

Episode Date: June 10, 2025

Sean and Amanda are joined by Chris Ryan to discuss their disappointment with the newest installment in the John Wick franchise, ‘From the World of John Wick: Ballerina’ (2:08). Next, they cover the second horror feature film from the Philippou brothers with the deeply upsetting ‘Bring Her Back’ and explain why it was an interesting follow-up to their first feature, ‘Talk to Me’ (25:45). Then, they revisit Kevin Smith’s 1999 classic, ‘Dogma,’ and share everything they loved about it when they first watched it, and all of the things that have aged so well since then (37:00). Finally, Sean is joined by Kevin Smith for the first time to discuss the re-release of ‘Dogma.’ They discuss why it has been so difficult to access the rights to the movie, what made Smith’s return to the Cannes Film Festival so special, and share a myriad of incredible stories across his entire filmmaking career (51:19). Hosts: Sean Fennessey and Amanda Dobbins Guests: Kevin Smith and Chris Ryan Producer: Jack Sanders Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello, Baypick Psychos. You already know we're coming to Chicago this summer, and we're so excited for our live show on July 21st, but there's more. We're heading to the Music Box Theater to watch number 14 on our 25 for 25 list on the big screen with you. We're keeping the movie a secret, but we promise you won't be disappointed,

and we'll have a conversation right after to talk through what we all just watched. Tickets go on sale this Friday, June 13th at 10 a.m. Central Time. More information will be available soon at TheRinger.com slash events. Again, we're going to be screening and talking about number 14 on our 25 for 25 list live at the Music Box Theater in Chicago on Sunday, July 20th, and you can join us. Tickets go on sale this Friday, June 13th at 10 a.m. Central Time with details to come

on theringer.com slash events. We hope you'll join us. I'm Sean Fennessy. I'm Amanda Dobbins. And this is the Big Picture, a conversation show I'm Sean Fennessy. I'm Amanda Dobbins. And this is the Big Picture, a conversation show about ballerinas and not-so-silent Bobs. Later in this episode, a big name comes off the old bucket list.

Kevin Smith joins me for one hour, or perhaps to put a finer point on it. Kevin Smith, the writer-director of such beloved classics as Clerks, Chasing Amy and Dogma, delivered an hour-long mega-story on this show about the birth, disappearance, and re-emergence of his fascinating, hilarious Catholicism satire comedy action epic. If you love Smith the filmmaker and Smith the storyteller, you will definitely want to stick around for that conversation. Amanda, Chris, and I will also briefly teleport back to 1999 to dig into dogma a bit as well. Also on this episode, we are about to dig into from the world of John Wick ballerina, as well as the Phillipo brothers follow up to 2023 is horror smash. Talk to me. It's

called bring her back to do those things. CR Chris Ryan is here coming to us from zoom. Hello, Chris. I love dance and I love demons and I love coming on this podcast. Thanks for having me guys. Amanda, let's, let's get right into ballerina. Okay. You've been, you've been anticipating this movie for the 12 years since it was completed production. Um, right. It shot in the 2010s and we've been waiting a long time for it. Uh, this is of course the new movie, the fifth film in the ballerina story. It's directed by Len Wiseman, sort of. We'll get to that written by Shay Hat and it stars Anna de Armas, Gabriel Byrne, Catalina Sandino Moreno, Norman Reedus, Angelica Houston, Lance

Reddick in his final screen appearance, Ian McShane back into the WIC world. And of course, Keanu Reeves, John Wick himself. It's a movie that takes place, I guess, during the events of John Wick chapter three, Parabellum, a movie that I don't remember as well as I would have liked. It's about a woman named Eve Macaro, who we've seen in the Wick world before. That's the armistice character. She's begun her training in the assassin traditions of the Ruscaroma, which is also something that you endured to become the cohost of this podcast. And along the way, she encounters the hidden world of the Continental in a secret cult responsible for the death of a family member to avenge this family member,

she must glow on a globetrotting killing spree. Amanda, I will start with you. Yes. Before you begin your killing spree, did you like the movie Ballerina? Well, I would say this is a tenuous, at best, connection to the world of ballet. So that was tough for me. No, I was kind this is a tenuous, at best, connection to the world of ballet.

So that was tough for me. No, I was kind of disappointed by this, I'm gonna be honest. And because, as you said, is it really a globetrotting? I don't know. They go one place that seems nice and everywhere else is various nightclubs, you know, that are lit purple like every other nightclub in the John Wick universe. I was a little underwhelmed by the action of it all, which, and I guess we can talk a little bit about

flamethrowers and like your general relationship to fire at a later date. I'd like to, I think that that could be some psychology, but there's like, I don't know. It was like fine, I guess, but it doesn't have any of the wit and flair that I associate with, certainly John Wick 4, but like really the whole franchise

and also what Anadarmis is capable of. You know, at this point, I think the no time to die scene is like an albatross hanging around her neck because like we know she can do it and we know that that's possible. And no situation seems to be able to be replicated where like she can do it again but yeah I was somewhat bored. Chris I'd love to hear your opinion about this I think I echo Amanda in many ways. Yeah I'm not a huge fan of this

movie although I did find some stuff in it to like. So especially the back half of it, or the back third of it, when the ballerina character goes to an Alps village full of killers, I thought was a pretty ingenious little invention and had some of the charms of like John Wick when an entire city gets the alert to kill him kind of thing. And all of a sudden there's like attacks coming from all these different directions. That was like playful. It had charm. It had invention a little bit. And that's what this movie was kind of lacking. Cause the first hour and a half almost are is really just like this sort of trudging vengeance

origin story, training origin story, not nearly enough training. I wanted way more Black Swan, like, kill school stuff. That would have been dope. And just a lot of like franchise service of like dragging old people from the John Wick movies in to kind of do their their five minutes of Ian McShane and do their five minutes of Angelica Houston and yeah, it's a tough one. Obviously, this this has had like so many major surgeries done on it that it's kind of a miracle. It's as good as it is. It would have been an interesting experience to watch this movie not knowing any of the backstory. In fact, when we talked about it after our trip to CinemaCon, Matt pointed out to me, he was like, I feel like you're holding

something against this movie because you just know that there it has been reshoot city with it. And we know that Chad Stahelski, the author of the John Wick universe came in and apparently had to kind of save it by installing a set of new action set pieces. Melanie said that to you. Yeah. He said you were holding something against the movie.

He did. Which, you know, it was kind of a direct shot. I'm usually pretty open minded about these things, but I think that this movie has got an incredibly mediocre script and a tone that doesn't actually fit the world that it is meant to exist inside of. I think, as Amanda suggested, the Wick movies over time have become more and more sort of like self-referential and self-aware about their place, not just in the action universe, but in the silent comedy universe, that just the world of physical filmmaking. And this is just a regular old mediocre revenge movie. If it was extricated from the WIC world, maybe we wouldn't have had standards that

are as high as they are, especially because there are a couple of times where the action shows you what it could be. That's the sort of like the creativity. I personally thought a lot of the flamethrower stuff was new. Like I just not seen that before. And so that's part of what WIC does, which is like, they show you a kind of way of creating something that is almost like external to the story of the movie. It's just like, are you ready for some cool shit? And I enjoyed that, but almost everything else around it, I was like, this is just feels very pro forma. It feels very serviceable.

Are we about to get science corner? Are you gonna science corner it? No, this is more psychology corner. I mean, you really do anytime fire comes out of any sort of gun vessel. I also think of that battle scene in John Wick 4, which like I thought was cool, cause it's filmed like, you know, from like up above

and is at least interesting, but you were just like, there's a gun and it has fire. And I'm like, well, I mean, it's okay. First of all, I really don't think Science Corner, here we go. Welcome to Amanda Dobbins' Science Corner. The pressure of the hose. This is what I was going to ask. Could actually withstand the fire in the way that it is demonstrated in ballerina.

You guys should recreate this on stage in Chicago. Chris, what will you be doing? Yeah. In Chicago? Yeah. Am I invited? Are you not coming? Yeah. In Chicago? Yeah. Am I invited? Are you not coming? Yeah.

Am I announced? I didn't know if I was gonna be like a surprise guest. Like I was going- We don't wanna sell tickets on the back of your fandom. You know, we wanna see if we can do it all by ourselves. Right, right. But the tickets were sold out. We did, we did actually.

Yeah, so they're gone. Yeah. And now we can- People were very mad by the way. They were very mad that they sold out in one minute. I don't really know what to do about that. I received angry messages on social media about the fact that the show sold out.

I'm like, I- You can move it to a larger venue like the United Center or something like that, like where the goals play. Yeah, that's a good idea. We should definitely do that. Anyway, back to Ballerina. We were talking about literally the final action sequence

of the movie and some of the tale here. So if you don't want to hear about those things, don't listen, I guess. It's in the trailer. Yeah. Yeah. But okay. So in addition to I don't really know whether the fire hose can stand up to the blowtorch in that way, even at like high water pressure or whatever, who was that guy?

You know, with the blowtorch? Oh, he was like the fight like he was a late breaking. Second to last boss that they obviously kind of were like, he's supposed to be like Mr. Joshua and lethal weapon or, you know, like blonde badass who's like the super killer of the village and his Gabriel Burns boy. OK, but he kind of showed up from nowhere and I understood that he was like part of the cult, but like I didn showed up from nowhere and I understood that he was like part of the cult But like I didn't really feel in he was in he was in a Prague when Norman Reedus his daughter is kidnapped Ella

Right, right. Right. So he makes an earlier appearance in the film. Okay Sorry attention to this Is a great this is a great example of what of what maybe happened to this film because Norman Reedus arguably was being set up to be, I don't know, like the McShane to Anna de Armas' John Wick. I thought even a battle co-conspirator, somebody who might have participated more aggressively in some of the fighting and in fact, he's just kind of shanked shortly after he's introduced and he spends the rest of the movie in a hospital bed, which we learned at the end of the fighting and in fact he's just kind of shanked shortly after he's introduced he spends the rest of the movie in a hospital bed which we learned at the end of the movie so he doesn't Norman Reedus you know one of the

badasses of television I guess over the last ten years you would think if you're gonna put him in your movie Boondock Saint that he is that he'd be shooting people and he does especially with cross pose which is his preferred weapon of choice on Walking Dead I believe so yeah I mean that's a good example of just trying to remember a movie that you saw five days ago and that is kind of slipping through your fingers a little bit just because it's just ultimately not very good.

I would say it is not bad, but you use a little boring, Amanda, and there were times when I did feel like I was kind of checking out from the film. And you know, it didn't really do very well at the box office and it's not terribly surprising because it doesn't feel like the buzz is very good on it. I don't know if like could do could you guys sense that it was kind of Frankenstein together or did you just know that going in?

Um, I will. So I think that the second half of the movie or the once she gets to the to the village feels like a different, more fun movie or a more interesting movie, but also has a lot of weight of like, that's where your sister happens to live, you know, who you've seen earlier and did feel a connection across the hotel lobby and all the stuff that gets like exposition dumped at the end about like this community of killers and how no one's ever allowed to leave, which I actually thought was like pretty interesting, but just you can't really like take that on

after an hour and a half of like, Rumeruska and like her dad living on the beach in Valencia or whatever. Did you like that little catalog? Yeah, I did, I did. I noticed it. Did I just say great out village? Like the eye was really into that.

That it looks cool. And when everybody's, who's just like a waiter or like a family walking by just pulls out fucking automatic weapons, it's like, oh shit, this is actually like the John Wick vibe that I know and love. I will mention, Sean, you asked about the Frankenstein thing. I did a little bit of spelunking onto the internet

and read about the script that this is based on, which is a 2017 spec script by Shay Hatton when he was just kind of right out of college and was very hot for a second because I guess there is a cottage industry, or at least it appears to be, of people writing like spec John Wick spinoffs to just kind of throw out there and like, you know, kind of throw into the, this is Lionsgate, right? Like the machine of John Wick. Cause I think for a while there, it looked like John Wick was going to be like, we're going to pump one of these out every two years and we're going to do TV extensions and spin-offs and all

this stuff. So the script itself, which I read like a little bit of from what I could see on different screenwriting sites is very, very Shane Black, 80s vibe. It's like the prose and the descriptions are all very flippant and funny and tongue in cheek. And throughout the movie and the early screenplay version, it's like her kill count starts when she's a kid. And it's all kind of like...

Well, it does in this movie too. Yeah, but like it's like... But in a traumatic way. Noted on screen as like a joke. Like, you know, like, Eve Macaro kill count one, and she's like a six-year-old who pushes somebody down the stairs. You know, it's like supposed to be a little bit more comic, I think. And I wish we got to see Anna Darmis do that, because that's a little bit more of the knives out Anna Darmis.

Like, that's a little bit more of the knives out Anna D'Armas. Like that's a little bit more of the like, she can do a couple of different things, but I feel like she's really trapped in like, she's almost in the little glass ballerina case in this movie where it's like, you have to just get tattoos and be gothic and be vengeful. There were two tells for me in terms of Frankenstein ink. One was Anna D'Armas's hair,

which her like her slicked back style, which I like honestly thought looked great. Um, and I'm dealing with a lot of flyaways right now, so I was really invested in it. But it starts as soon as she becomes like a Ruska Roma. And you could say it's part of the characterization, but there is such a difference in the grooming and like the, the early origin story stuff and all of the ballet stuff. there is such a difference in the grooming and like the early origin story stuff

and all of the ballet stuff. And then once she's acting, then I'm like, oh, okay. Like this was, this didn't all happen at the same time. Like the conception didn't all happen together. And then obviously Keanu, right? Who just like shows up in like, almost tacked on in a couple places. And you can really feel the way that he's worked

into the script and also what he's asked to do to, like, is very separate from the rest of the movie. Yeah, I want to talk about both of those things that you guys brought up. On Chris's point about the tone of the movie, there's a middle ground that I guess I'm looking for in an action movie, which is neither trauma core revenge, which is what the movie ends up becoming, nor wink action, which sounds like what you're describing, Chris, this idea of like a very, very

openly silly self referential, almost like Grand Theft Auto style video game. Well, I think he would like the screenplay would probably be like, we want it's like supposed to be like long kiss good night and totally Yeah, yeah But I think that that we've lost that tone like we've lost the ability to hit that tone of like we're having fun And we know what we're doing it and having fun, but we're not breaking the fourth wall it would have been interesting to see them attempt that and then You know related to that this like obviously sweaty edition of Keanu Reeves,

kind of pointlessly to this movie. And the fact that, I don't know if it's the studio or the filmmakers or somebody just getting nervous that the movie wasn't gonna hit and just feeling the need to literally have the ballerina walk past John Wick in a hallway halfway through the movie, just to be like, in case you forgot, because we put the words John Wick in the title of the movie, John Wick is a part of this world.

In fact, this was a scene from John Wick 3 that you may recall. Now we're going to show you him, and you're kind of sort of going to get a fight sequence with him, but mostly he's going to be talking on phones, looking through a sniper rifle. Just like, extremely banal, pointless, just like, juiceless in general. And like Keanu is amazing.

I love the Wick movies. I think they're getting better and better. I hope they do a John Wick five, even though it would make no sense relative to what happened in John Wick four. Save that guy's knees, man. Yeah. I know, I know.

He's like, I can't. I almost felt bad for, the other thing I read too is that apparently Keanu was up for a role in the acolyte that eventually went to the star from squid game which I did not know but I guess he didn't do that because he had to do this instead which is an interesting sliding doors of like we almost got Keanu as a as a Jedi but it was on a show that nobody watched or cared about which is sort of like this beautiful little metaphor for what's happened to the franchization.

You know, like literally one of the greatest franchise action movie stars in the history of movies in Keanu. Somebody who's born to be a Jedi in so many ways. As a toll, like his whole being as a performer is this kind of like inner calm, this sort of like trying to endure the epic pain of galactic struggle.

And then he couldn't do it or wouldn't do it or didn't do it because he had to walk past on a D'armis in a hallway in the fifth John Wick movie. It's a little depressing. Can I just make another point about like the tension between building franchises and telling good stories? The idea that that's the character introduction sucks because the cool character introduction is the one that maybe they had in mind, sucks. Because the cool character introduction is the one that maybe they had in mind, which is he's on the train, and the train arrives in this snowy village,

and he's the one that's been sent by McShane to take care of this, but winkingly, because he's gonna have this conversation with Eve, and they'll kind of like, chastely fight, and he won't let her, you know, he's like, you have until midnight. All that stuff is like good mechanics for action scenes. Like there's a clock, we're gonna have a fight,

but I'm not gonna hurt you, you know? Like I understand your pain, all this stuff. But his arrival would have been really cool if that was the arrival. That's like a Sergio Leone arrival. He's arriving on the train. But instead they're like, people are gonna get nervous they don't think John Wick's in this movie,

so we have to show him in the first 35 minutes and it has to be a scene from John Wick 3 that they may remember that kind of places this within the timeline and it's like, dude, you fucked it up. You could have just had John Wick arrive on a train in a snowy mountain village and step off and we would have been like, whoa. Instead it's like, yes, I remember this scene from John Mc3.

I've been paid back for my, my consumers. You know, it's, it's just like, think guys. Yeah. Can I pitch a, a concept to you guys that I was thinking about as I was watching the movie. So Stahelski comes in and he reshoots a bunch of the action that Len Wiseman shot. They re he, you know, does his stunt design that he is acclaimed for. And you do get more juice. You get this great scene in this restaurant where he goes to bat, you know, she goes to

battle with this assassin who comes to kill her. She dispatches him fairly quickly. And then she goes to battle with people who literally work in the restaurant and live in the town. It's probably the most pure like fun sequence in the movie. And I thought Anna Darmis acquitted herself very well, especially in that sort of like close up hand to hand stuff, where they were really like not cutting away to the stunt doubles. And that's just, there's like literally references to other films in that sequence. You can see this the hellsky touch of like loving Buster Keaton and loving the slapstick comedy that is interspersed in those ways, the plate smashing over the heads. Would it

be better ultimately in the world of movies if rather than continue to make John Wick movies or make his new Highlander movie, if Chad Stahelski was just the action fixer for every movie, if it was just, we have an action movie, it's fine. It's the amateur starring Rami Malek. But three different times during the movie, Chad Stahelski will give you an absolute banger sequence that makes it feel worth the price of admission. Is that a better, as a movie watcher, as a movie consumer, is that a better fate for us, for his tools, his talents to be utilized?

I don't think so because I think you end up with a lot of movies like this where there are some good action sequences, but it's divorced from the rest of the movie, the rest of the story. And so you get the lame hallway reveal, you get this mishmash Frankenstein, you know, we've seen what happens when you build movies around action sequences and it's called Mission Impossible Final Reckoning, which Chris is still just like really big mad about and I don't think we've explored like his level of anger. What we like

about Stahelski and about the John Wick movies is that he can make the action like of a piece with the film itself. And when they're working together is when it's really great. So I think he's very good at what he does and it's clearly the best part of this movie, but no. I say no. I completely agree with her. I think we've gotten a little too over invested

in like designing a film around action sequences and then writing the script after the fact rather than like be like what would make What what are the steps that lead us to a place that would be a cool setting for an action sequence? And what are the elements of the character that would actually make it? Because I was kind of thinking about how she doesn't do much dance in her fighting which yeah would be interesting I mean, I think one thing that she- She doesn't do much dance before either. It's like one scene to like techno Swan Lake and she can't stay up on her leg, you know?

Which as we learn on center, no, she keeps slipping on her blood because it's tough and ballet is tough. But as we learn in center stage, you got to stay on your leg. I would say that I enjoy the fact that like Anna DeArmas has like a, like, guttural yell when she's getting her ass kicked

that I found new and original and something that I'm honoring, you know? I don't want to replicate it now because like there are people outside my window and I don't want to start screaming. She does get her ass kicked a lot. It's awesome. But she then fucks people up.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But she then fucks people up. Yeah. But she's like the first scene, she's just kind of like roll, like doing a lot of somersaults. That's sort of like a toddler ballet class, you know, just like, ah. And then she gets back up. I understand it's part of the training. But I was kind of like wincing a little for her. I was like, oh, come on, Ana. You know, you mentioned Mission Impossible, Amanda, which I am still, I just want you to put in the paper

that I'm not mad. I'm laughing about Mission Impossible Final Reckoning. But, fantasy, I think you had like a point where you're like, this movie can just start here. And it was like lopping off like 40 minutes or an hour of it. There, I definitely like through watching trailers and just like knowing about John Wick, and anybody who goes and sees this movie is gonna say, I bet this chick is motivated by revenge.

You know? And the 15 minute sequence in a castle in Spain, wherever the hell that was, and all the training and stuff like that. Like honestly, if this movie starts with Ana de Armas in that bathroom, with her hair slicked down, taking a picture of the dead guy, and then being like, doing the elevator joke when she gets off, where she's like, oh, I was very scared. Yeah. It's true. Ten, 20% better, if that's the case.

It's ironic because part of the appeal of the John Wick film is sort of like, so this guy's just mad because they killed his dog. Like it's just not, it's such a simple under sold concept. It's so small. And then it leads to some of the most epic action, gunfu that we've ever seen. Yeah. And that was the joke of the movie. So to just give us this kind of retrograde traditional,

like they killed my father, they just to Inigo Montoya, ballerina. It's just weird. But the reverse is cool. If she's just like, I'm an assassin, but for some reason, these people with X's branded into their wrists keep showing up to fuck me up at my jobs. What is going on? I'm going to follow the trail. It's kind of neat. You know what I mean? I kind of, I kind of dig that. It's just like, but the entire thing is broadcast from the beginning. If you know that she's like

always been searching for somebody with this mark on their wrists. Let me ask you guys, do you think there will be another John Wick movie that isn't a John Wick movie? Another spinoff, another extension of this world? Well, this didn't do very well, but they're clearly trying to set it up because it's the Roma Ruska versus the,

what are the guys with the Xs on their wrists? What's the official name of the village? I don't know that they ever really got a name. I think it's referred to as a cult, but like, Burns, we have great benefits here, you know? I mean, it seems like a good deal if you're just living in this bucolic village and also highly trained, You know what I mean? Uh, so, and for the most part, it doesn't seem like people come to their village

very often, so, you know, it's, it's, it's Hallstatt Austria is the town, but Chris is right that it's only referred to as the cult or the cult. And it's apparently a big, big secret, but that guy who has the gun shop is like, don't tell anybody, but it's right there. Yeah. Another terrible scene of just showing guns and explaining things. Yeah. Yeah, this movie is a disappointment to me.

I was hoping it would be better. And it comes at an interesting time. It's the first kind of dip in the summer. It felt like things were just hot. The movies were very hot for six consecutive weeks weeks and they slowed down a little bit. Speaking of slowing down a little bit, Bring Her Back has been a somewhat of a mild disappointment at the box office this summer as well. This is the Philippo Brothers movie that I mentioned. Talk to Me was one of the surprise films of 2023. It was a Sundance acquisition by A24, released in the middle of the summer. A high school possession horror movie from these YouTubers who

displayed a style that I did not know they had based on the YouTube videos that they made. This movie is them diving even deeper into traumatic, upsetting horror. Amanda, you have not seen this movie. I would not recommend that you see it for a variety of reasons. I don't know. So let me guess, don't even tell me. Okay, so like Deep Gore and Kids in Peril. Absolutely.

And let's see, what else do I really not like? I mean, is there like a supernatural element to it? Yep. Yes. Out, don't care. Yeah, okay, but tell me, okay, give me the scene. I don't think we can play by play it. I was kind of thinking about this, Sean, like this might be one of those,

we can describe it if you want, or we can do the plot, but like, it's almost a bum out to think about telling Amanda the plot. Yeah, it is extremely grave. And on the, okay, I'll just say this. One, I think this movie is very well made. I think it is like an accomplished, it is an interesting step forward for these filmmakers.

And I think that they are extremely talented. I really liked talking to them. They're like goofball Australians. It's so strange that this is their second movie. I never would have guessed this would have been inside them. I have to give them credit for making something so focused and sticking to its guns. They're very, very gifted. It is a really unfun time at the movies. It is so bleak and so hard to sit through at times. Some of it is like fun horror, but it's literally

a movie about a woman who has lost her daughter, her daughter drowns, her nine-year-old daughter. Jesus, do you see that? And you sort of in flashback. He's actually, he's soft peddling the opening of the film, which is a snuff film. You open the movie with a snuff film. A snuff film about the sort of revivification

of a dead person's soul into a different body. That's like the setup for the movie. Unlike a fucked up VHS tape. And you're not really sure what's going on. So it just looks like naked guys are killing children. Right. And there's like drool and blood and pus and kind of like eyes turning black. Like it is it is very well made and very upsetting.

And it felt a little bit more to me like an early 2000s horror movie. Do you know what I mean by that, Chris? Like it's not in that kind of like A24 trauma core thing. It was a grungier aesthetic than we usually see in these movies. And then it shifts to a much more classical contemporary style that we see in horror movies where it is like basically a kitchen sink drama

with supernatural elements. And Sally Hawkins is a woman who has lost her daughter she becomes a foster parent to two children who we see have just witnessed the death of their father a teenage boy named Andy right and a mostly blind girl named Piper okay two very good child performances Billy Barrett and Sora Wong, they're really good in this movie, and they go to live with Sally Hawkins. Sally Hawkins, you know, a phenomenal British actress,

probably best known for her work in Mike Lee films. And the Paddington movies until she was rudely replaced without credit. This seems like a full rebuke of her Paddington past. It is amazing that she skipped Paddington 3 to make this movie. This is a remarkable thing that happened. She plays a woman who foster cares kids and who we later learned in the movie had previously been, had previously worked at the sort of institution

that helps place children in homes. And she has lost her daughter and it's sort of slowly revealed that she is attempting to harness the powers of the supernatural to revive her daughter in the body of the young girl. Yeah, it turns out that this snuff film that we thought we were watching is in fact for Sally Hawkins's character like an instructional video. Cool. How to resurrect people by having a like very specific kind of what she believes to be an angel do a lot of sucking the soul out of one body and then regurgitating it back into a vessel body and the Piper character is going to be the vessel because like Sally Hawkins is late daughter date she is also

blind so there's like this perfect symmetry. I don't know that we actually don't get too into the bylaws of resurrection in this. Okay. This movie. Yeah, I think it was pretty surprised because bring her back. No, sorry, talk to me actually had like to Sean's point about this being grungy early 2000s, bring her back or talk to Me had like 90s scream fun to it. You know, there was like teens in peril,

but also making jokes at one another's expense. Then, you know, punctuated with like these extremely like upsetting moments. Bring Her Back is almost exclusively upsetting moments with none of the fun, which is a choice and it's like a way of doing things and it's much more traumatic. This just happened to feature one or two things that I am not cool with, especially tooth violence. Okay, so that's your line.

It is a line that I have, you know, and it's like, it is so extreme in this movie that I actually, hand to God, looked away and I rarely rarely rarely look away. Are you speaking about the butcher block table? I'm talking about the cantaloupe scene. Yeah, the butcher block table. Okay, so let's let's talk about this. This is important. Are you going to explain this to her? That's fine. I don't really like melon very much.

So that's not the problem. The melon is the least of your worries. You're gonna explain this to her? That's fine. I don't really like melon very much, so it's okay. That's not the problem. The melon is the least of your worries. So there is an actor in this film named Jonah Ren Phillips. He's maybe a 10 or 11 year old boy who plays this kid Oliver, who's another boy who's being fostered by Sally Hawkins' character.

And he is that sort of like soul transporting vessel we learned in the movie. He is being groomed to become this sort of, you know, he's described as an angel, but he's clearly like a demon who has the power as he becomes less and less human. He has this insatiable appetite and we can't, you know, he wants to eat like live flesh. He wants to eat anything that's in front of him.

And this little kid plays this role and he is very upsetting and very effective. It's an amazing performance by this young kid. And there's a scene in the film when he's sort of left alone at the house where we're getting closer and closer to the potential resurrection, where we're going to have-

He's getting hungry, quote unquote. Yes. The Sora Wong character is out and about. It turns out that the corpse of the dead daughter is in a freezer in the back house and he's getting so hungry. And he's there with the older boy, Andy, who's really extra to requirements for Sally Hawkins. She doesn't really need him around. So she's gaslighting him. She's peeing on him at night so that he thinks that he's losing his mind. She's doping his protein shakes. He's like real

fucked up. This is a deranged movie. Yeah. This is just like, it's just fucked up, Seville. And then Sean, go ahead. So Oliver is seated at a table, almost like waiting for his next meal and nothing arrives for him because he's by himself in this house. And he just takes a giant bite. Andy's trying to break through to him. He's like, we can, cause Oliver's a nonverbal.

And so Andy's like, I can, I can break through to this kid. Like I can just reason with him. And he's like, Oh, do you want to write? Do you want to write something? And he gives him a pencil and a pad. And he's like, if you write something, I'll, I'll give you some melon, some lunch, but it's like quid pro a pad and he's like, if you write something, I'll give you some melon, some lunch, but it's like quid pro quo. And he's like, okay.

And he cuts this melon with a knife and the kid like reaches out for it and he's like, here you go. And Andy turns his back and like when he comes back, Oliver's like sawing his teeth out with this butcher knife. Oh, that was the part you were, you were, you were, you wanted to talk about. Okay. Yeah. That is, um, yeah. Amanda has frozen at an amazingly opportune time. I don't know if she

knows that should we just continue talking through this terror, these terrible sequences? We've lost Amanda. Did she sign off? Amanda literally did she tap out from the teeth selling? I think these kinds of technical, technical disruptions that have it. Especially deep into the description of truly upsetting horror sequences. Of dental violence. I did find this movie effective and unpleasant and I don't want to revisit it at all. Yeah, that's a good way of putting it. I do think some people really enjoyed it. Yeah, that's a good way of putting it. And I do think some people

really enjoyed it. Amanda, you have returned. I literally, he was sitting at the table and waiting for his meal. And then what happens? He stabs himself in the mouth with a knife with a cantaloupe at the end of it and then proceeds to flip out all over the house and starts biting into a wooden butcher's block. And it's just like a lot of mouth blood and mouth mouth. That's gross. And teeth going places. Fuck. Yeah. It's just like I those are all my stress dreams or like my teeth. Oh, really? Yeah, because I grind my teeth.

I have to use like a little a mouth garden when I take it out. I often have like if I wake up at like six and I want to sleep for like another hour, I'll often take my mouth guard out. and then I have like fucked up dreams for that last hour. Um, I find that teeth, teeth violence is not terribly upsetting to me, but after enduring one hour of a teenage boy being completely gas lit by a deranged woman attempting resurrection, it was a little bit of a cherry on top.

I was like, okay, in addition to just being like sad and upsetting, this movie is extremely gross and doesn't resolve itself in the most emotionally satisfying way. I would say everyone is pretty traumatized by the time we get to the end of this movie. Interesting choice by the Philippos to do this, obviously comes from a very personal place.

I believe the story is that they were either going to make a new Street Fighter movie or this movie. And they opted not to make Street Fighter and make this. Someone is making Street Fighter though, right? Someone is making Street Fighter. I'm not sure who that is right now. It's actually me.

I was gonna announce this in Chicago, but my directorial debut will be Street Fighter. That's really exciting. I saw Chris on Saturday afternoon after he had seen Ballerina and then bring her back in succession. And I just have to say it was like not the best CR mood that I've ever witnessed.

When you were talking about the movies, no, you were great. You were like, you were a wonderful party guest and you hung out with my three-year-old terrorist son and we appreciate you. But like when you were talking about the movies, you were like, oh, that sucked. Yeah. Yeah. It was tough.

Yeah, I think those are also like tough movies to see alone, because then you walk out and you're like, what have I done? Yeah. Let's pivot to something we did 25 years ago, or at least I did, which is see the movie Dogma. It's right there with you, brother. Chris and I, obviously, we pray in the temple of Kevin Smith, especially 20th century Kevin Smith is insanely formative for me as a person. And we've kind of hinted at it at times.

I think there's honestly a chance to do like a four or five hour episode of a podcast about this movie. I've taken two parental leaves in the time that you've been threatened. You fucked up Sean. Yeah, yeah. It was your, you could have done it. It was there for the taking. Amanda, I have news for you.

I can do it whenever I want. Just because you're not a parental leave doesn't mean I can't do it tomorrow. Nevertheless, it was a really kind of interesting experience I just had with Kevin, because I've never talked to Kevin before. I've never met him. Um, he looms large in terms of like my taste and point of view. He's, he's gone through like several cycles of evaluation, but he did the thing that I have been honestly so fond of that he does, which is he just like took over and

he just podcasted for an hour because this is something he's been doing for the last 15 years. And by the time he got to the end of his conversation, he almost in a way kind of made me realize one of the things that I really like about him and that is inside of dogma, which is that I just really like watching Kevin work out his ideas through character in a, in a movie setting. He's often criticized and criticizes himself for his inability to basically like direct well, that he doesn't stage sequences very well, he doesn't block well,

he doesn't really have that sense of kinetic visual excitement that so many of his peers, like he kept referencing Tarantino, Linklater, Robert Rodriguez, all the guys he came up with. These guys are such like gifted, dynamic visual filmmakers. But what I like to watch is a Kevin Smith character giving a monologue. That actually gratifies me. And obviously it partially invented podcasting. It invented a whole way of living in the world. And dogma was a kind of like logical endpoint, I think,

to what he had been writing through, through that decade, which is sort of like taking the stuff of his childhood and the fascinations of his adolescence, Star Wars, video store culture, dating, personal relationships, kind of blending them up and making fun of them and about them in movies with his friends. But Dogma is about something much more serious,

right? It's about faith. It's about religion. It's about the extension of like how far you can go without actually seeing what is real in the world beyond the world. It's also like a silly action comedy. So revisiting the movie and then talking with Kevin, it's like very personally gratifying experience for me. I loved Dogma when I saw it, even though I was like, this is so strange that every time there's an action sequence, he cuts away to a reaction of a person's face and doesn't show you any action. He doesn't want to shoot the action sequence.

But I think there's like a lot of good stuff in it that I want to talk to you guys about, but it was just nice that it sort of like, it held up as a time capsule. I felt a little bit like my dad listening to a classic rock radio station where I was just like, hell yeah, man, the Eagles still fucking rock. Like this is the hotel, California will never be bad to me. And I was comfortable in that. Um, Chris, I know, I know that you saw it

at the time. Did you revisit the movie for this chat? I sure did. Yeah. And it was awesome. I can't believe how good this is. I was kind of almost made me wonder whether or not, you know, the other element to this film is it was in some ways, like, theatrically controversial at the time, both as a selling point of the film, but also as a performative act of culture war stuff that was going on in the late 90s. But, you know, it was it was knowingly a hot button movie, you know, like Linda Fiorentino's character in the film works at an abortion clinic. There's a lot of stuff about God and whether he exists or not.

There's a lot of stuff about corporatization of everyday life going on with the movie Corp stuff. And maybe even at the time, I think I remember being like, it feels like he's pressing the button down a little hard with like what he's trying to say about the world. And now all these years later, I'm like, this completely, A, I feel like I'm way more in agreement. Not even in agreement, but it's like, this rules. And two, like maybe we'll look back on some films

that we've found overly prescient, you know, over the course of the last five, six, ten years. And we'll look back on them in ten years and be like, oh, this was really good. I just didn't. I just had an allergic reaction to it being ripped from the headlines. Amanda, did you see it in 1999? Of course I did. Because this was post-Goodwill hunting, Matt and Ben.

And so I mean, it was like a sense memory rewatching this because I was so young, but they are also so young and so charismatic. And obviously like they were trained in like the, you know, the Kevin Smith school of just talking a lot and like being a wise ass, but like the two of them on the like the airport walk, you know, walk, they're just like yelling at each other. Like I, I felt 13 again in the, in the best way. Um, and they have it, you know, that's also like a, it was a nice reminder of, Oh, so that is why they are now like Matt Damon and Ben Affleck. There is something so powerful, but I do also remember being, you know, I went to the movie theater because it was Matt and Ben,

and let's see, I was what, 14, 15 when this came out. So like, I had no idea what was going on. I mean, I understood, like, I remember the, you know, the news events, like I knew what the Catholic Church was. I was aware of the headlines that it was like something scandalous, and I knew Alanis Morissette was in it. But I took Chris's point.

It's not even that I was like allergic to it. I was just kind of like, what? Okay, well, this is weird that they made a movie about the Catholic Church. And so re-watching it, I was like, wow, this is like very smart and very funny. And it is, you know, talky in the end, like with big ideas and like the tiniest bit of like philosophy 101, like as an undergrad, but actually not. It's not annoying.

I think it's like, it's like well done and amusing. So yeah, totally holds up. I was kind of, I was impressed by the boldness of combining the stupid humor of a giant shit monster with, I thought, like, fairly sophisticated understanding of the complexity of being raised in the Catholic faith. Like, obviously, I related to this movie instantaneously. I was 17, raised in the church, confirmed, spent every Sunday at church. And from the age of probably like nine, all the way through when I stopped going to church at 18, sitting in a pew and just baffled

by the utter contradiction of the experience, by the inability to understand mass groups of people, not more deeply questioning the illogical nature of the story. And the movie takes this really smart choice of using these kind of fallen angels, these descended earthbound angels, and having them be, even though they're the villains of the movie, the vessels for the questioning. Linda Fiorentino's character is somebody who is also sort of like coping with a loss of, like she has faith but like a loss

of hope because she's unable to conceive and that using that as a sort of like Virgin Mary North star throughout the story. But Matt and Ben are the ones who get like most of the big speeches and they're the ones who are kind of like dissecting the nature of faith and the nature of their role as, you know, God's disciples. And Matt and Ben, I didn't have the same relationship to them, Amanda, obviously, I wasn't super horny for those guys, but I was like, these guys are so cool. And the thing that Kevin Smith knows is that they're so smart. You can tell that they're really, we know they're really smart guys because we've been watching them do press for 35 years now, but nobody gets Ben Affleck to me. Like Kevin Smith, like Matt Damon is the smart guy in goodwill hunting, but Ben

Affleck is the real smart guy to me. He's the one who's actually really bright. It's just that he is like so self-defeating in everything that he does. And he always casts him in roles of the guy who's incredibly smart and great at giving great monologue, but blows it every time. You know, he like, he overreaches.

He doesn't quite know how to get out of his own way, which is like such an elegant little, you know, mini portrait of the Ben Affleck experience over the last few decades. And the scene between the two of them in the parking garage in this movie where Affleck has sort of like has his dawning realization and starts making his pitch to Damon's character. And Damon's like, Whoa, man, settle down. Like, you know, we're just two angels here. We don't need to get crazy. Affleck, I'm like, this is like a award winning performance. You know, like it isn't a silly movie with Salma Hayek as a muse,

who's a stripper and the shit monster and Chris Rock as the 13th disciple that was written out of history. But I think I was just surprised. I think Kevin Smith was like in his early 30s or late 20s when he wrote this movie. It's just, it's oddly mature for being as immature and silly as it is. And I agree with you, Chris, like it's pretty, it's really

smart about corporate influence and the bad actors inside and the way that they capitalize on people's, you know, inability to go beyond what's convenient for them. And you know, the George Carlin character in this movie is very funny. This sort of like golfing Cardinal who's trying to modernize faith to kind of keep as many people in the church and keep the money flowing into the church as much as possible. George Carlin, obviously, like such a huge influence on Kevin Smith. And you can tell when you listen to his monologues, they're basically just like standup specials that Carlin was doing in the nineties. I just was, I was,

I think I was impressed by this movie. I was like, how did he convince Alan Rickman to do this movie? Alan Rickman just cooking did he convince Alan Rickman to do this movie? Alan Rickman just cooking when he's right in that like galaxy quest zone where he's like, yeah, sure. I'm in sense and sensibility, but what I really wanna be doing is stupid R rated Hollywood comedies. Just the whole cast in general is delightful.

I don't know any takeaways from the movie, Chris? Just to like the same sort of, maybe not singular, but maybe generationally defining voice and I that he applies to Star Wars movies and comic books and his characters in previous films are talking about those kind of more pedestrian things he applies to like, like Catholic doctrine. So listening to these two characters be like, here's the loophole

that we'll use to get back into heaven or here's, you know, like all these like basically like ideas that these guys have are essentially the same as, you know, the Death Star or, you know, talking about X-Men or whatever, but they're actually talking about the Catholic Church. It's like such an ingenious application of a very specific voice and a very specific sensibility. And I gotta say, I found the end very affecting, like the sawing off the angel wings stuff. And I just was very, very happy to have this movie back in circulation and back in the mix.

I wonder whether or not it will kind of get revived. I know he's taking it around and it's doing, I did like a million dollars over the weekend, right? On like, it's like small opening, but you know, the askew verse is right there to be rediscovered. Ben Frick Amanda, what about you? Any other observations from the movie? And it's, you know, it was, it was gone. And the only way to watch it for years was just on DVD basically until they remastered the film in 4k. And as Chris said, basically put it on a thousand screens over the weekend and it made a million bucks.

I do wonder what people seeing it for the first time, people younger than us will make of it and whether it will be totally baffling or if it is sort of just like yet another Rosetta Stone of like, oh, this is why you guys are like this. Like this is why you talk like this. This is how you see. I do think that it does a great job of explaining why those of us who are raised in the nineties think and speak the way that we do, which is, you know know a testament to Kevin Smith and his powers I'm not like in this, you know, I'm not gonna do a five-hour podcast with you guys about it but I

have a lot of respect I Wonder if it's it's got to be similar to the way that I felt in the 2000s going back and trying to watch every Elliot Gould movie and being like oh Right. Yeah. Yeah, this is why is why Bob and Carolyn Tednellis, this is why my parents were the way that they were. MASH, God, Little Murders. You go deeper and deeper and you keep finding these kind of defining cultural aesthetics and points of view that then characterize your favorite annoying podcast hosts who have a

very specific attitude towards things like ballerina because they were raised in the fire of a movie like dogma. And it's cool. It's nice. I have no, I actually have no angst whatsoever about getting older and this movie getting older. And I think part of it is because as you'll hear from Kevin, he's just such an enthusiastic and grateful avatar for this period in cultural history and the work that he was able to do. And it's just like, I mentioned it to him at the time, and I wrote a column about him some years ago on the ringer, how I saw him in 2000 speak at Cornell when I was going to Ithaca College. And it was the, I think it was the second date of what was going to be a four city college tour, where he sold out whatever, like 2000 seats in a theater at a college and just talked about his life. He talked about the things he had been working on, the movies that he had made, the experiences he had had as an independent

filmmaker and then he would open it up for Q&A and he did like two hours of Q&A and we were there for four hours and it was honestly one of the most fun nights of my life because he opened the doors to the world that he was living in in a way that no filmmaker ever had to me or really I think in any way since and he's just an a remarkable storyteller and I view that night It's very meaningful for me as very much like wanting to get closer to the world that he was living and

Understand things the way that he was starting to understand that man was willing to share with people why they were the way that they were. So I'll use that as a way to tee up my conversation with Kevin Smith. CR, Amanda, thank you guys. Let's go to Kevin right now. For the first time ever, Kevin Smith is on the podcast. I'm honored and delighted. And to prepare for this conversation, I had to break out my special edition 2000 dogma DVD, because it's been damn

hard to find this movie until now. So why is that? Why was it been so hard, even though we all loved it so much in 2000? For those who weren't around at the turn of the century. In 1999, let me paint you a picture. Disney doesn't own Marvel yet. Marvel's not even a thing. Marvel's a struggling comic book company that is almost about to fold. The movies are a ways off. So Disney, like a lot of majors,

were for some reason interested in winning awards. They can make box office numbers, but none of them could win awards like, say a company like Miramax. Miramax for those who don't follow film history all that closely, although on the big picture I'd be shocked if you didn't know this, but to put it in the parlance of our times, kids, they were the A24 of their day.

All of the interesting shit was coming out of Miramax back then. And so in 1993, I believe it was, Disney, the Walt Disney Company, bought Miramax, which came with the brothers that ran it, Tighten Your Sphinxers, I have to say the name out loud, Harvey Weinstein and Bob Weinstein. So I feel, this is my theory and I can't prove this, but I feel my entire career has been a result of a reaction to a criticism that came from the sale of Miramax to Disney. Now, there was no internet then, kids, if you can believe that shit. So if you wanted to let people know you were mad about a thing, you'd write a letter into

the newspaper or you wrote an article in the paper, and this is pre-internet, versioning internet was just starting to enter homes at this point. There was no way for everybody to get on Twitter and be like, I'm pissed. There was no Twitter or even X or whatever. That being said, when the sale of Miramax to Disney went through, criticism arose. Again, I don't know where we would have heard it, I guess just in articles, probably in the trades, probably in a lot of indie filmmaking magazines like Filmmaker Magazine or AIVF,

that it was the death knell for independent film. Now that Disney, now that the mouse owns Miramax, nothing interesting will happen. They're going to start homogenizing. Miramax was coming off of the piano and the crying game. Those were going to be out the window. Everybody's clutching their pearls. I honestly feel, and again, I never had this conversation with anybody to prove it. But I believe that Clerks was purchased at the 1994 Sundance Film Festival,

not because of its quality, which if you've ever seen the movie, it looks like it was shot through a glass of milk. It's an enjoyable movie. The audience really got into it. It's a wonderful movie, Kevin. Everyone loves it and you know it. A wonderful movie, but it's an outsider art. It's like, you know, it's some kid from Arkansas who's never been anywhere who made a Mona Lisa. And people are like, oh my God, he made it out of cow shit. Like, it's that kind of thing.

So I feel, because going into Sundance, anyone who could have bought the movie had seen it and passed. We had fans in every company. Your Fine Lines, your Arrow, your IRS, your Miramax, of course. Was October, didn't even exist back then. We had fans in every company, but nobody could pull the trigger. Nobody was in charge. He was generally a youngster who worked in the company who was trying to hit somebody

to our flick, but nobody could pull the trigger. When we went to Sundance, we went going like, that's it. The best it could ever be is we're going to Sundance, which, mind you, was pretty much what Sundance was about in those days. Prior to the year that we went to Sundance in 1994, no film had ever sold at the Sundance Film Festival. Now, well, the festival has changed in many ways over the course of the last few years, but it was defined for a long period of time as a Cinderella story location where these young filmmakers carry their film up to the top of the hill and come down with movie deals.

That never happened until 1994. Most deals were made prior to Sundance and after the festival was over. Nobody had ever sold a movie at the festival until John Pearson sold Go Fish. First movie that ever sold at Sundance while the festival was going on. He sold it right before the first screening, I think he was negotiating, because it was an unseen, very hot movie. He also represented Clarks. Clarks was the second movie that ever sold at Sundance.

So I honestly feel, because then I was introduced to Harvey Weinstein, and then I was introduced to Jeffrey Katzenberg, who had, you know, they were like, this is Kevin Smith, he made clerks, it costs like 30 grand. And he goes, Oh, we'll give you 10, we'll give you 3 million, you can make 10 of those. So introduced to like, him and knowing the climate at the time, I honestly feel that we were purchased to indicate to anyone who was writing about film that nothing had changed at Miramax. It was almost a defiant, like, oh, you think we've sold out to Disney? We are going to pick the filthiest, most foul mouthed, basic independent film that we can find at Sundance,

and we're gonna slap a fucking Disney logo on our shit. So I do feel like my career was a reaction to the sale of Miramax to Disney. That benefited me. In 1999, it came back to bite us in the ass. That benefited me in 1999. It came back to bite us in the ass. So we make Clerks, Miramax picks it up. Next movie we make is Mallrats

with Universal Gramercy Pictures, which was co-owned between Universal and Polygram. And then the next thing we do before Mallrats comes out, I'm wise enough to make an overall deal at Miramax with our friend John Gordon, who went on to produce Red State with me and then produced David O. Russell's Academy Award winning movie. He was like, come here, man. You did Clark's with this. I don't know why you went to Universal, but set up your shingle here.

So we set up our shingle there. And Chasing Amy was the first movie we had made under their ages and then Dogma was the second. They were told from the jump by Michael Eisner, don't make this movie. It's going to cause trouble. Now here's another theory of mine. Again, no proof whatsoever, but this is my theory. Harvey and Bob went through a similar process with what they would go through on Dogma with Larry Clark's first movie, Kids.

It was a Miramax film until Disney was like, this is tantamount to child pornography. Get rid of this. It was a polemic. That's according to Disney. Harvey and Bob, rather than sell it to a competitor, they bought the movie away from Miramax themselves, paid Disney for the movie, and then released it themselves through a company they created called Shining Excalibur. Now, since the Miramax deal with Disney, whatever money came in for those movies went to Disney. I think the Weinstein brothers rewarded themselves appropriately.

I don't think they were hurting. But all the box office went to the parent company. With kids, all that money went to them. They made a lot of money. My take on the situation was since they knew, since Michael Eisner made it very clear, even to an underling like myself, that dogma was not to be made at Miramax,

they wanted no trouble with Catholics or anything. Harvey still made the movie. And I believe it's because, I would like to believe it was because of the commitment to art. I think he knew, if I make this movie and they hate it, like they hated kids, I got a model. But this time around, and this is just my contention again,

no proof whatsoever, but this is my conjecture and I'll tell you why. But this time around, why would we pay Disney? Like, they're gonna want it gone. So we were initially being kept to a budget of $4 million on Dog, which would have been nearly impossible. The movie was very ambitious. We barely got it made for the for the 10 that we had. Because the boys were in Goodwill Hunting and Goodwill Hunting blew up and they won an Oscar, that gave us more breathing room. We moved to a $10 million budget.

I think they wanted to keep it close to four because it's much easier to make a $4 million movie disappear than a $10 million, but I think at the end of the day, the heat was so strong. The Catholic League, it was never the Catholic Church. Some people are like, man, the Catholic Church, Pope never said shit about this movie. Catholic Church, guilty of many things, smart enough to understand, if you don't want people paying attention to something, you don't point at it and say its name. We were attacked by the Catholic League, a self-appointed media watchdog group here in the States, run by a guy named

Bill Donahey, who had white hair then, so I can't imagine he's still around in this day and age, but he was older then. They were making all this noise, and it got so bad that we had 400,000 pieces of hate mail, three legitimate death threats. They had to install metal detectors at the Palais in Cannes for the first time because there were death threats. They had to install metal detectors at the Palais in Cannes for the first time because there were death threats. When we showed up at the New York Film Festival to debut the film, a thousand protesters in front of Alice Tully Hall. So it was pretty contentious. So Disney was like, get rid of this. And I think they were like, gladly. And that was it. I don't

think for years we were told they bought the movie and I'm like oh I guess that makes sense like why would Disney just let them walk away with that but years later we asked Disney to provide a receipt like you know I was this sounds stupid but I would have to imagine if ownership of a movie changed hands, there'd be some paperwork somewhere or a receipt indicating that, yeah, they paid us back to $10 million. And we waited to find that for a while. And one of the answers I got back was all of this took place before records were digital. So all of this lies in a warehouse somewhere in the valley. If we can find it,

we cannot locate it. The Indiana Jones Ark of the Covenant Museum is where it's hidden. Yeah. So I don't want to sound like a conspiracy theorist, but having worked at that company, I do feel like Disney was happy to be rid of that movie. And I don't think they were ever doing paperwork to see if they got paid back. Unimportant part of the story, except later on when I'm trying to get this movie back, I'm like, wait a second, do I even have to get it back?

I may own it based on the fact that like, if no money exchange hands, it comes back to the guy who made the movie. Back in the day, Miramax owned by Disney. They told them, get rid of this movie. Harvey and Bob took it. They released it not through a company they created, but they broke it up. Theatrical Rights went to a fledgling Canadian company called Lionsgate that hadn't done

a lot but had done enough. Mark Ehrman was the guy that was running the company, Tom Ortenberg at that point, and they were kind of an indie upstart, did very small films. But Harvey didn't want to let the movie go to Focus or let the movie go to Fine Line. They were competitors. He didn't see Lionsgate as a threat and he knew Mark Ehrman and stuff and so they made a sweetheart deal. Theatrical went through Lionsgate.

When we hit 30 million at the box office, Lionsgate took out a double page ad in Variety going, 30 million dollars! Lionsgate has arrived! Years later, Lionsgate would go on to make Twilight and The Hunger Games, and they'd made a lot more than 30. But it was charming. I still have it framed. It's at Smodcastle Cinemas.

So, Lionsgate had theatrical, and that ended once the movie was done with its theatrical line. Sony, Columbia TriStar and Mike Stradford, he was the guy who was in charge of DVD division and the father of bonus value material on DVD. He's the one that pushed that forward in the medium. They had the home video rights. We had done, not Columbia, uh, Criterion, we had done a chasing Amy DVD with Criterion.

And so they're like, we'll do Dogman a heartbeat, but, uh, Criterion in those days, and it's probably the same still now didn't pay as much as like the studio, Columbia Tri Star was like, we'll give you way more. And so it wound up going there and they did a Phenomenal it's a great disc. Yeah, you'd be day no complaints whatsoever. So Let me see what year 2008 I go from Miramax to the wine scene company when when the Weinsteins leave Miramax behind and Start the wine scene Company and we do Clerks II with them in 2006 and then we do Zachary Meary in 2008 and then that was it.

Then I walked away. So 2009 represents the 10th anniversary of Dogma. And so I start writing, hey, 10th anniversary, what are we gonna do? Nothing. I go for the 15th. Same thing. Hey! Dogma 15th! What's going on? During this time

they were doing stuff like, remember they had the artist? They were back on top winning awards and shit. So I and my dopey ass movie from a decade or more ago was an afterthought, if any thought whatsoever. I would write and I'd reach out.

Nobody ever got back and stuff. I would hear from people all the time who were like, hey man, I can't get Dogma anymore unless I pay $100 on eBay and stuff. I was like, I'm not in charge of that. The video deal must have lapsed. I'll put in a word again and I would write and nobody would write back and stuff. So I didn't talk to anybody at Weinstein or Harvey in particular. When I left from 2008, the only other time I spoke to him, because I would reach out, never hear back. When we took

Red State to Sundance, I was, were you know doing the auction thing. Yes. I thought I would save independent film. That's a cool idea. I liked it. It's fun and it also birthed the model that I worked off of for the next 10 years touring the movie myself. It wasn't a revolutionary idea really. I could have truncated the speech down to I'm gonna take my movies to smaller places and charge more money. Goodbye! You know was it so it was a model that has worked for us ever since and including just recently with with the talk my tour so while I'm there for that red state screen you know we're telling people we're gonna auction the movie and shit and so it was packed and everybody wanted to buy it was there I'm

sitting in the back of the theater and it was at the Eccles, which is the school essentially. Yeah. It's like the grandest room at Sundance. Yeah. Huge, like a thousand seat or something. But technically it's at the high school. It's just big high school theater. So if you're in the back, they don't have traditional doors. They got a curtain. And I'm sitting in the back, leaning on the back wall, watching my flick. And then I hear from out in the hallway, an unmistakable voice of Harvey. And so I open the curtain and look, and there he is barking at some underling or something like that. You know, I close the curtain, and because he stopped talking, roll my eyes, go back to watch my movie, then even louder and shit like that., blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,

even louder and shit like that. And if I'm hearing it, that means everyone in the back of the theater is hearing it, and it's at the beginning, first 15 minutes of red state. So I did something completely uncharacteristic, because I am not a brave person, nor am I a tough guy, by any stretch of the imagination. I open the curtain, I say, hey, and he looks over at me.

He's talking to his assistant, he looks over and I go, shut the fuck up. And he looked so fucking surprised. And I was like, I'm showing my movie in here. I would never do this to you if you were showing one of your movies. Shut the fuck up. And I closed the curtain and I waited for him to come storming through and punch me, but he never showed up. So I wouldn't consider that a conversation, but I did address him after I left, after Zach and Mary,

and between this moment when I get this phone call. I get a phone call one day, and it's like, I haven't been at Zach, I left Weinstein Company at least almost a decade ago at this point. And I get a phone call and they go hold for Harvey Weinstein. So click Kevin Harvey. Say hey, how are you? And he goes good.

You know what? I just realized I got dog money. I said yeah, you do. And everyone's always asking me about home video, man, because the Columbia TriStar deal laps. He goes I know. He's going like look, this movie's got an amazing cast. He's going all these people are still working and we could make a sequel. And I was like, what?

Yes, I would love to do that. He goes, we're at least a streaming series. I got a figure we could carry the story on. You interested in that? I said, yeah, man, I'm very interested. And he goes, all right, so I'll give you a call next week. We'll get into this. And I was a guy and I hung up and I was so fucking excited because I felt like I'd been forgotten. Like a part, an important part of indie film history for Miramax in the beginning.

And then when we left, they were like, fuck them. And you know, this is also right around the time, same time, the internet is also to some degree like, fuck them. So it's kind of starting to feel like, oh my God, like we never should have left, but we did. And I was trying to make it, oh my God, like, we never should have left, but we did. And I was trying to make it on my own and stuff like that.

And so the fact that suddenly he was talking about dogma again, after me trying to fucking like remind these cats, Hey, you own this movie, was music to my ears, man. I couldn't wait. Three days later, the New York Times piece comes out. And I was like, you know, like, I've seen many people online be like, they, everyone had to know. Nobody knows when somebody's fucking committing crimes. They don't broadcast that kind of shit.

So all of us who I know, we're like fucking reading the New York Times, like, holy shit. So you start calling everybody that you ever worked with to be like, what the fuck, man? What the fuck? Did you know what the fuck? So I'm talking to John Gordon, who's our exec there for years.

And then, you know, John went on to, he ran Universal for one red hot minute with Donna Langley. And then he went on to like produce, well, he produced Red State with me, but then he made like David O. Russell's like award-winning movies and shit So I'm talking to because I met John at Miramax. He was our guy that got us to do the overall deal So we come up together. So I was like, you know, oh my god, this is fucking what a horror show. What the fuck?

So after we talked for like 10 15 minutes, I said John I said I gotta tell you something and it honestly makes me fucking queasy and I feel dirty. He's like, what? I said, this guy called me last week. He goes, what? I said, I haven't heard from this dude in like a decade. And he called me last week to talk about doing a dogmasy. And I got real fucking excited, man, because like, I've always wanted to like revisit dogma. And like, you know, after I've been trying to get in touch with them, talking about the home video deal lapsing and the anniversaries, that was music to my ears. John goes, he's real sober as a judge, he goes, Kevin, he had no interest in dogma. He was just calling to see if you were one of the people who was a source for the New York Times article. If

you didn't answer the phone, he would have assumed you were one of the sources. But the fact that you answered the phone and you were happy to hear from him told him that you were oblivious. So he had no intention of doing anything with Dog. He was just casing himself before he knew the inevitable was about to happen. So in terms of the egregious things

that Harvey Weinstein's done, let's all agree, that doesn't even make the fucking list. But it was, you know, yet another fucking blow and just it sucked, you know, and then what sucked even worse was finding out. Wagner, Jersey Girl, Clerks II, Zach and Miri, these were all made under the ages of this guy. Like, my dreams came true under this monster. For others, he was this fucking nightmare. So he carried our cross with you.

Like, you know, up until then, there'd been no price for my art, so to speak. And now it's like, oh, like for me, there'll always be this kind of taint to it. So what happened happened and he went through some legal troubles, wound up in jail. For the 20th anniversary, as the 20th was coming up, I started reaching out again, because I was like, you know what, man, like maybe he'll just sell it now. So I wrote a heartfelt letter to a convicted rapist, sent it in through the lawyer saying, look you made many movies, I've only made a few, this one is tied in with my childhood faith with my dead father, you're not doing

anything with it, please sell it back to me. And I offered 250 grand, it was a place to start. Heard back from the lawyer, absolutely not. Wrote another letter, offered 500 grand. Heard back from the lawyer, absolutely not. That's about where I could go, and that would have been me closing Jay and Silent Bob's secret stash. So beyond that, I had to reach out to some people

who might have a vested interest in seeing dogma live further and whatnot. Then I got back to the dude, wrote another letter, offered a million bucks. I got back to the dude, wrote another letter, offered a million bucks. Still heard back from the lawyer, no. So what we'd heard from inside was he was holding out for five million.

And if I had $5 million, like I'd make a brand new movie, motherfuck buying some old ass movie. I love dogma, but. So at that point, that was that. I was like, I'm never going to get five million for it. And even if I could raise five million, I wouldn't feel good about paying that. And it would take a long time to make that kind of money back in this environment. Like, shit, 10, maybe 15 years ago, we could earn that back with home video licensing deals and stuff and just selling DVDs and Blu-rays.

Now in the streaming age, it's a different world altogether. So it would take me, if I spent five million to buy that movie, my own money, which I don't fucking have, so I'd be on the hook for money to somebody else. It would probably take me 10 years if I could earn it out, you know, just by licensing the movie, showing the movie, not talking about making a sequel or turning it into something else. So I was like, you know what, maybe it's for the best. I didn't have the money anyway, so fuck it. Then eight months ago, I get this phone call from Alessandra Williams, who's like, I have dogma. Would you like to come talk about it?

And I was like, well, you have my interest. I'm intrigued. So I met with her at the Sam and Zenday bungalows. And what we learned at that point, what we were told then, was she was in charge of a company, a hedge fund, that bought a tranche of movies from Harvey Weinstein. He was going back into court. I guess he's in court right now. So he knew he needed money and I guess he liquidated whatever assets he had left.

So in this tranche of movies was some karate films I guess he had bought in the wake of Kill Bill, Larry Clark's movie, Kids, Michael Moore's movie, Fahrenheit 9-11, which went through the same experience that me and kids went, that Dogma and kids went through. Harvey and Bob buying that movie personally and releasing it and making a hundred million dollars. And Dogma. So, you know, they sold off everything and they were like Ben Affleck's in this. So you know, she was like, so we have it. And I was like, can I buy it? And she was like, no. Fair enough. And she was like, what would you do with it? What would you want to do with it? And I said, well, I've been touring movies lately.

Like Clerks 3, Jane, Son, Bob, Shrek, all the way back to Red State. Like it's great. It's a party and stuff. And this movie would be like an instant easy fucking seller. Are you kidding me? I didn't tour the 430 movie because I was like, oh man, I'd have to educate everybody on this, what this is. Clerks 3, Jane, Son, Bob, Reboot, easy to tour because people are like, well, I know what the originals are and stuff.

And Dogma was like, oh my God, taking out that movie in this day and age where people are like, take me back to the fucking 90s. It was gonna be an easy sell in my book. So she was like, would you put it in theaters, re-release it? And I was like, well, I mean, the way we do it is we just go to big theaters for a wallet and shit like that. And she goes, you want to just put it in

on a big screen again? And I was like, I don't think anybody's interested in that sort of thing. June 5th, the movie comes out on like 1500 screens everywhere. Because at one point, I was like, look, why don't you sniff around AMC, man? Like, instead of sniffing around a studio, find a partner, AMC did that deal with Taylor Swift and she seems very smart, so why not try that out? And so she did it and bam, we're coming out on all these screens. So I was like, I thought I knew the story. Then about, shit, six weeks ago, eight weeks ago? Well, at this point, because I went on tour for the whole last month, so maybe at this point, 10 weeks ago, Alessandra's like like, hey I produced a movie that's at the Beverly Hills Film

Festival. Will you go watch it? And I said, oh my god, absolutely. So I go watch the flick. Interestingly enough, the Beverly Hills Film Festival is at Gromish Chinese Theater, which is not in Beverly Hills for those that don't live in the area. But it was an easy walk for me because I live right up the hill from the Chinese. So I went to watch the flick, had a good ass time. I talked text to her afterwards. I said, hey man, I have a festival at my own movie theater. I said, I got Smart Castle Cinemas over in Atlanta, Kyle, New Jersey, and the fourth edition of the film festival is coming up.

So if you give me a link, I'll submit the movie to Ernie O'Donnell, who runs the place, and he'll put it in the festival." And she goes, oh my god, that'd be great. Then my mom could see it. And I was like, oh, does your mom live in Manhattan? Because we're like across the river from the city. And she goes, no, my mom lives across the street from the movie theater. And I was like, we've been working together this long. This is the first time you thought to mention that. And she goes, well, I don't want to creep you out and I was like too late. She goes well it gets even creepier I said what and she goes you know James Allen Bob secret stash I said quite well.

What complex and she goes I used to work at Cocoa pre right down the street knows who the fuck are you and then finally she dropped on. So at age ten. man. And then finally she dropped on. So at age 10, her very permissive mother lets Alessandra watch dog. And she loves it. Some of it she understands some of it she know, but she watches it over and over again. Alessandra grows up becomes an actress, producer, mover and shaker. She's one of the most insanely well connected people I've ever met in my entire life. And I haven't met her until recently.

So she's sitting around, I guess, watching fucking YouTube, or she sees me give an interview someplace where I'm sitting there going like, ah, I tried to get the movie back from Ari, but we can't get Dogma back. And she goes, oh my God, I used to love that movie. More people should see it.

I'm gonna help them. And that's exactly how we wound up here. She went and fucking raised money and then hit up his lawyer and right place, right time. I guess that dude needed money more than he needed it when we were trying to fucking get the movie five years ago or whatever the fuck. Cause he sold off that Tronja film store

and she was able to sell off the other movies and be like, great, now we can concentrate on fucking dogma. So she's like, you know, would you ever think about doing a sequel? I was like, uh, yes. Like, fuck yeah, that'd be fantastic. When I started my career, I was like, I'll never do a sequel.

I got enough original ideas to last me a lifetime, but you know, you can watch Clerks 3 on home video right now. So in a world where I'm open to playing with my toys again, as I like to express it, fucking dogma would be amazing to play in that sandbox again. Because the kid who made dogma, who wrote it and directed it, believed in everything you see on the screen. That's not him making fun of religion.

That's his fucking faith. I don't have that belief, those beliefs anymore. Now I have good ideas as we say in the movie. So heading into a dogma follow-up is coming in from a completely different angle. The one that we've seen that people like, not the one I'm gonna make that everyone will hate, but the one that I made that people like, not the one I'm going to make that everyone will hate, but the one that I made that people like came from like 21, 22 years of a life, including eight years

of Catholic school, 12 years of being an altar boy, every Sunday in church and whatnot. So it was fed by my faith. And I wouldn't say I fetishized my faith, but I was a big fan of being Catholic. I think it was a big part of my identity and stuff. And then now I wouldn't say I fetishized my faith, but I was a big fan of being Catholic. I think it was a big part of my identity and stuff. And then now I don't have that way in anymore. Now there's less life in front of me than there was behind me, which is the reverse of where I was when I wrote Dogma. Same cosmology does not wash for me in this day and age.

So it's presented like this crazy bridge back into the material from the complete other side. Young man wrote that first movie. An old man who's scared of dying and almost died a few years ago and then went crazy two years ago is the one that's writing the sequel. So buckle up, kids. If you love dogma, just keep on loving it. No guarantees on the sequel, but I'm having a fucking blast writing it and I couldn't have done it unless Alessandra just came out of the woodwork.

Now that point in that whole story is I know people and I made that movie and I have direct connections to all the players and could get money and I could not make any of this happen. We're literally living in Alessandra's dream. She was able to accomplish what I couldn't with my own movie. As you know, the kids say nowadays, she can manifest the best manifesto I've ever met in my life. If you're an up and coming filmmaker,

or a seasoned old bro, or an honest down and out fucking old broken boxer of a filmmaker like myself, get to know this woman. It's fucking crazy. Like we went to Cannes, I just got back from fucking Cannes. I'm like, I'm doing this as if I need proof.

Here's my fucking Cannes badge from 2025. I've been to Cannes three times in my life prior to this trip. Once in 1994 with Clarks. Total accident. I never thought I was making a movie that would go to Cannes. We went into International Critics Week and wound up winning the Prix de la Jeunesse, the prize of youth, and the International Critics Week Prize. Fucking nuts. Just blind luck, first timer, whatever the fucking shit.

So I never had an expectation of going to Sundance. I didn't make clerks thinking about Sundance because I was like, oh, they only take color movies, let alone did I ever think about Canada. So I go with clerks and, oh my God, what a first time. We go back in 99 with Dogma, this time we're official selection. So we get to walk up the Palais steps and we screen in the big theater in the Palais but it's out of competition. So that's my second time to Cannes and magical. Third time, 2006, we go back with Clerks 2. Once again, we get to

walk the Palais step, it's midnight screening, we then go into the Debussy Theater for that, we get eight minutes standing ovation. Last time I was in Cannes, 19 years ago. It's been 19 years. What I assumed was being communicated was, we're good, you know, with Kevin Smith movies, because it's been a red hot fucking minute

since I ever got anywhere near the festival and shit. So I had accepted that like I you know, I'm one of these cats It's like I'm a George Carlin acolyte. So I believe in entropy He taught me about it at a young age in his comedy routines. Everything breaks down shit So in my head everything's always breaking down. So in my head I was like, well, you'll never go back to Cannes. That was the time in your life that's magical in the beginning of your career, but you didn't wind up being a Cannes-type filmmaker. You don't make Cannes-worthy movies anymore. Enjoy the fact that you ever went. I had my three certificates framed on the wall, my laurels and shit.

Then all of a sudden, all of a sudden, I submitted the movie to Cannes, Dogma, for this year. I was like, that don't, that don't matter. We already went. Like, they ain't gonna take it. They took it. Like, we wound up in a section I didn't even know existed called Cannes Classics, which normally the movie has to be 50 years old, but these cats were like, fuck it.

And they said, let us go over. So I'm like, holy shit. Like, I never thought I was gonna go back to Cannes, but I get to go back on the wings of Dogma, how, you know, pun intended, how awesome. So when I went back, I went back just ready for the victory lap. Like, you know, and last time I was there, Jennifer was pregnant with Harley, so she's walking up the steps and Harley's in her gut. This time I was like, oh, we can bring Harley, she can walk up the steps herself, man, it'll

be fun and shit. So we went with no expectation. I went with zero expectation of just anything, but oh, how nice. They remember me here. And as I was walking around the Croisette for the week that I was there, man, it was crazy. I was seeing all the places of my youth. I mean, it's not like shit changes in the south of France. It's like I was seeing all the places of my youth. I mean, you know, it's not like shit changes in the south of France. Like, it's beautiful and it stays beautiful. So there's the pizza place that me and Scott Moser ate at when we first landed in Nice and we were fucking terrified, didn't know what was going on and should everyone speak

in French and we're there with our dirty little black and white American film, which David Lindy, who was in charge of international sales at Miramax in the day, and then he would go on to run Universal years later, he swore to us at the Sundance Film Festival, he goes, I'm gonna sell the shit out of this movie overseas. And I was like, what? Why? How? Everyone speaks English. And he goes, that's why. He goes, this movie is so American, they're gonna eat this up So when we went to can we got into the International Critics Week? Miramax went to work selling movie and sold it everywhere, you know

So like I had this kind of international profile at the beginning of my career So as I'm sitting there walking up and down the closet, I'm like, there's that place. There's this place I walked past the venue where they were doing International Critics Week man, and I was like, Oh, like I saw the awards ceremony, people heading in. And I got like real misty where I was like, Oh my gosh, and tell them like, Hey, man, I won the prize here. I'm looking at the International Critics Week awards ceremony, watching everybody youngsters and oldsters going in. And I'm like, do I tell them?

Do I go like, hi man, I'll give it a word out. Like I got one a few years ago. And then I remembered it wasn't a few years ago, it was 31 fucking years ago that we were at Cannes. So as I'm going up and down, I was like, you know, why do you assume that you'll never make a Cannes worthy movie? I'm very open to influence and always have been.

And I've been a creature of the internet since its inception. So the internet has always told me like, you're bad, Kevin. And I'm like, yeah, you're right. So the internet tells me I suck at my job. I'm like, yeah, you're right. Just easier to believe. And I'm a codependent people pleaser.

When I went nuts and I went to the boobie hatch, they diagnosed me. Codependent people pleaser who cannot validate themselves. So naturally, I'm prone to suggestion. So I just felt like, well, I guess everyone's right. I did things when I was young, and now I'm just waiting for the clock to run out. And I always kind of chalked it up to like, yeah, I had your time and your time was wonderful. And I have no complaints and stuff, but I had zero expectation that that journey

would ever continue. Like that part of my life I felt like was over. And now, like I'm telling you, it lit a fire into me. And where I was like, you know what, man, come back one more time. Like, sincerely try to come back. I never tried to come the first three times, right? Like, I didn't try with Clerks, I didn't try with Dogma.

We thought Dogma would be a Sundance movie. And I didn't try with Clerks, too. The timing just worked out. So I was like, just for once in your entire fucking career, before you leave this best of all possible worlds, try to go to Cannes. Let's see what happens. And so we were in the 78th edition this year.

So I'm gonna try to go back for the 80th. The latest, the 81st, man. But if I can rush real fast and pull everything together, and you know, it could be that I can make it in time for 80. So I was on stage at the opening of the dogma screening, which was like just last week, eight days, nine days ago. And so Terry Formaux like brings me up on stage and it was so lovely. They gave me like a standing ovation just for showing up, which I was

like, oh I'm old enough now where people are like, hey he's been around for a long time. So when I was up there, I told them the exact story. I told you, I was like, I, you know, honestly, I'm a bit mud bug. I said, I'm going to come back in 80, the cans 80 with a dogma sequel and the whole audience like the Terry from all on stage goes, if it is good. That was a good point. Excellent point. Way to bring my dreams crashing right back to reality, Terry. So the dream I'm in right now is not even my dream. This is Alessandra's dream. It's crazy that somebody so completely out of the side of the situation defined the current situation for Dogma.

Defined what it is now. So I've been out on the tour with the movie 20 cities for the last month and then I did Cannes and my god it's been blissful re-engaging with the movie because I have no choice but to watch it over and over again. And I get to see all my favorite people when they were at their absolute youngest. Oh my God, they look so young. Matt Damon looks like Matt Damon's daughter in the movie. So fucking baby faced and shit. So it's been absolutely lovely

and I have Alessandra to thank for you. So hearing you tell that entire story, I was teleported back to Cornell in 2000 where I saw you speak. Were you there? Were you at the Cornell show? I was. Um, and candidly, um, kind of magical night for me. And I was a huge fan before that, but what you were doing in front of all of us,

which is what you just did, which is speaking at length, in depth, charmingly with incredible, um, self disregard, butly, with incredible self-disregard, but we all knew you were the man. It's a very interesting magic trick that you're able to pull where you constantly point out that you think, that people think that you suck, but we all love you, which is a great move. I do, though. I do. It's like, it's not you,

and it's not the people who do like my stuff, but, you know, again, I'm a big boy. I was raised on the internet, thank God. So I met the first troll in the beginning. I remember his name was B Buster, lovely dude. I still know him to this day, his name's Mike. And he lived to be like, you suck and all this, all these people who like you are stupid.

And so that negative reinforcement, since I was raised Catholic, much easier to accept about oneself. You got to remember, like Martin Scorsese wanted to be a priest until he heard a different calling altogether. And that was his true vocation. But Martin Scorsese was put on this earth to tell stories with images. He is a true bonafide filmmaker, same as Quentin, same as Richard, Robert, these are cats that were put on this earth, Spielberg, to make movies. I was just a movie fan who was like, that looks fun,

and aggregated to trying it. And that first attempt was not meant to be the start of a career, it was meant to be like, well, if I make this right, then if I ever try to do this again, maybe somebody will give me money. I don't have to put on my own credit cards. So the journey winds up ironically beginning off of the first effort. And I've been ill-prepared ever since, man. When I was on tour with Dog Mother, there was a guy, I think it was in Chicago.

He was lovely. He was sitting in like second row. And during the Q and A after the movie, he goes, has his hand up, I said, yeah. He goes, I've been watching you for years, 30 years. He's gone, I started with Clarkson stuff and I've seen you. He goes, this is my 19th time seeing you live. And I was like, oh my God.

He goes, now I bring my adult children. And he had a bunch of 20 somethings sitting around him and stuff. And he goes, I just gotta know, I've always wondered, what's your end game? And I was like, I don't have one. I was like, it's so weird. Like, I wasn't ready for any of this.

Like, I wish I'd been prepared for a life in cinema or a life on the public stage or whatever the fuck. And I'm not saying like, you know, I don't want it. Of course I went after it. But I didn't think any of this was gonna happen. So I've just been making it up as I go along. So I told them, I said, look, my end game at this point, die on a movie set.

Just go out, toes up, doing what I love and doing what most people associate me with. Robert Altman, who was, you know, one of the greatest American filmmakers who ever lived, went out, for my money, the absolute right way. Like, he died making a movie. You know, allegedly a massive stoner in his old age, which is, you know, admirable. Why not? And then he had the, he left this world with the comfort of knowing Paul Thomas Anderson will finish them. Like take me out that way.

Like, Oh my God, that's the dream right there. So that's the kind of ethos that now informs dogma. You got to remember the first time it was written none of this shit like. No career no what do people think about me none of that like. Now going back into it and writing a dogma sequel it's such a weird different journey. Because i'm from black and better description i'm at the tail end of my fucking life at this point. I wrote dogma at the beginning of my life. So it's, it's, I think it's worth the journey so far. I, you know, I feel like if you're good at this job, you know, the fucking movie begins for the audience before they even get to the theater. That's why I'm always talking about shit long before it happens.

And if you're a magician, the movie keeps going. Like for a lot of people in my world, dogma has never ended. It coming back to theaters, they're like, oh, that's nice, but I saw it at Kev's theater like last year and stuff. So I tend to keep things going, extending them. Sometimes like the movies branch off, not into strict sequels, but they're all interconnected.

Sometimes I can write about them in comics and stuff like that. But my favorite way to keep the story going is this. Like honestly, I'm pretty convinced that the last 20 years of my career have been me making movies just so I can go on stage and be like, let me tell you a story about making a movie. I ran into, not even ran into, I went to the, they asked me to present an editing award to Waters. So they were like, you know, give a speech and then get out of the way because fucking Waters, he's like me, he loves the sound of his own voice. And he did not

disappoint, his speech was fucking wonderful. But when we were backstage after the ceremony and so taking selfies and shit, He said something to me that I really loved. Him and I, he's an absolute maestro and whatnot, but him and I are similar in the way in as much as we're both very chatty. I've seen many people say the same thing of him with me, which is like, you know, I'm not real big fan of his movies, but I can listen to that guy fucking talk forever and stuff. And so I got to, you know, I saw John and I was just like, Hey, man, I got a movie theater.

Like can you come and do what you do? I know you and I, we do a similar thing and stuff like that. And he, and then he told me about this this gig that he was just about to go to. And it was a pretty cool gig. And I was like, oh, that's awesome. And he goes, it's all storytelling. He goes, whether I'm on a movie set or whether I'm standing there telling the story of making these movies, he's going, I'm a storyteller.

So it doesn't really matter what venue I'm in. And he's going in lately. This is the easiest venue to go into, like where he he could just talk and he's such a raconteur And he's got experience and wisdom on his side So he's very easy to listen to you know what I'm saying he can talk the talk and walk the walk and plus He's just engaging as fuck So I'm not saying I ain't saying like the waters is like me untalented waters is a genius But I'm the filmmaker who you you know, like I always think

Fincher Fincher is a filmmaker makes a movie never fucking says shit. You know what I'm saying? He puts it out there and I won't come on this show, Kevin. I've been trying to get him for 10 years. I met him finally at I don't know if I mean, yeah, it happened. Ben Affleck and got married a couple years ago ago and I think that's over. But I was at that wedding and I was standing outside and was like, yeah, I just, I was, I can't remember if I was a smoker in those days. I don't think I was. So I'm standing, no, I was.

So I standing outside going to grab a smoke and this dude comes out and we're standing there bullshitting for a second. smoke. And this dude comes out and we're standing there bullshitting for a second. And then he goes, uh, Kevin, I never introduced myself, David Fincher. And I was like, that's what you look like. I was like, holy shit. I had no idea, man. Like he's the filmmaker that like, you know, he ain't like, you know, fucking Charles Foster came, but he's not a rec loose. Yeah. He just doesn't do a lot of stuff. He don't feel the need to go out and explain his fucking art. That's what I love about him as an artist. Like he puts it out there.

He's like fucking the movie says everything I need to say, because that's the way it used to be done. I'm of a generation of filmmakers that because of Miramax were pushed out in front of their movies because we were the cheapest way to market. That's the only way I wind up being this guy. Because back then, that was the genius of Miramax's no-budget release of a movie. You got yourself a movie that comes from France. You got yourself a movie that comes from America, made by unknown, starring unknowns. You're not going to get on The Tonight Show or Letterman

or Good Morning America unless you got some famous people. Except they found that these kids with their charming stories about how they got their movies made by Hooker, by Crook, made for good TV and made for good interviews. So we were pushed out. That's how you know me, Quentin, and Richard, and Robert. We were a generation of filmmakers where they were like, go speak for your work. And the directors, I'm not saying, nobody ever knew a director's name, obviously, George Lucas, Steven Spielberg, George Coogler. I mean, their names, of course.

But generally speaking, directors weren't the sexy. You didn't necessarily know the director's name unless you were Cine East and stuff. But now mainstream people who don't really even consider themselves film fans, so to speak, can tell you a Wes Anderson flick, you know, to say the very fucking least. So, but at that point, man, like it was a like a different world altogether. And so I feel like those cats were put on this earth to do it. I'm part of a generation that was just such a big fan

that I was like, I want to try it. And it worked out for me and stuff. And I still, I think about my man's question all the time. I'm like, what is my endgame? You know, like it should be like win an Oscar, but that shit, like it was never part of my makeup. You might as well tell me to like win a fucking Grammy. You know what I'm saying?

Like at least an Oscar makes more sense because I work in film, but I just never saw myself as a guy who made awards movies. And so, you know, it's very easy for me to slag on on Kevin Smith. Now, that being said, like, obviously it doesn't affect me to the point where I like, I can't get anything done. Perhaps it's fuel.

Like, you know, perhaps I tell people that don't like me and come after me on the internet. I'm like, hey man, you could do that, but it's a complete waste of your fucking time. Nothing good is gonna come of it. What you do is you use me as your avatars, you're as a lily pad of some sort and recognize the fact that if I'm such an idiot and I'm making it work, then it is inevitable that you who are full of talent are going to accomplish the thing

as well. And when you do accomplish that thing, guess who you don't care about anymore? Kevin fucking Smith. Because your dreams are coming true. So you're not sitting there going like, I hate this fucking guy. Suddenly I'm just another cat doing the fucking job. And I know where I speak. Because I have been that person. There was people that I cared about before I did my thing and then I did my thing and

I don't care about them anymore. You kidding me? I count my blessings, keep my head down and do my own fucking thing. So I, you know, it's been an interesting ride career wise, but it's so meta returning to dogma country in a way that I like, not just like, hey, we're doing a sequel one day, but like to be out there and like,

you know, meeting people who are like, I saw this movie with my grandmother, she's dead now, but that's why I came out to see it tonight in memory of her. Or, hey man, I watched this with a girl when I was a kid and now we got three kids together, it's your fucking fault. And then just some people who like weren't around, like, you know, so many fucking young people came with their parents and it was like,

you were come when this movie happened the first time. But the most delightful public screening, and I loved them all, don't get me wrong, the tour was great. In Cannes, every night I would always ask the audiences, how many people have seen Dogma before? And 98% of the audience would be like, woo. I'd be like, how many people have never seen Dogma in a theater before? And then it would definitely be a high number, but not a high percentage, not as high as like how many people have seen Dogma. And then I'd be like, and then how many people have never seen Dogma before tonight? And it was always like under 10. And we make fun of people for overpaying $50 to see a movie they've never seen.

I was like, this movie could suck. Fuck. When I went to Cannes and did that same thing, I was like, how many people have seen Dogme before? Put your hands together. And it was the reverse. Like, very few people had seen it in that room. I thought I was going to a room full of people who were like, hey, it's Cannes Classic.

But there were a bunch of fucking young kids in there that had never seen the movie. So I wasn't going to sit there and watch the flick. But then I was like, how do I pass this up, man? Like some of the kids there are American, working at the American Pavilion, but some of the kids are just sitting East from France, Spain, all over Europe and shit.

So I was like, I can't pass this up, man. Like, what's it gonna play like for the fresh audience? I've been on a nostalgia tour where everyone coming to see it has seen it before and has a built in affection for it. So to have this like clean screening, so to speak, or the cleanest one I've had in a while with a bunch of people that admitted like I've never seen this movie was intriguing to me. And it was so fucking rewarding, man, because it was like, oh, like, now after all these

years, I'm like, I think people just laugh in all these places to be polite. Like it's the same way I think my wife just pretends to come to be polite. So being at that fucking screening, I was like, these motherfuckers ain't pretending shit. Like some of them are struggling to understand the language and they're still keeping up with it. So that felt good. I spend a lot of time hearing shit about me as a filmmaker,

people telling me that I'm no good at my job. But there are moments where I'm like, I don't know, like, not every movie gets to go to Cannes and I have one that went fucking twice. I've got two sets of laurels on one movie. And I know that was an old movie, so people can amend it and be like, well, you haven't made a good movie in a long time.

That's fine, whatever. But like, I don't know, this is the one thing I feel satisfied about. When I'm done, nobody's gonna try to replicate this stupid ass career. You know what I'm saying? It will be singularly mine, like a work of art. Like people be like, I ain't gonna try that,

it was fucking dumb. He made a lot of mistakes, but it is his, you know? So I kind of appreciate that aspect. I know you gotta go. I going to proffer a quick theory, and then I'm going to ask you the last question. The theory is this. I think everything that you said is true about the way that you guys were utilized to market the movies

and that this was a pathway to being able to talk publicly. But I would argue, and you can agree with it or disagree with it, but that maps perfectly onto your art. There is a sequence in Dogma where Ben gives a speech in a parking garage to Matt's character. And I was like, that's how Kevin's brain works. There are moments when Jeff Anderson is talking in the Clerks films and I'm like, that's how Kevin's brain works. There are sequences when Jason Lee's characters are talking in your movies and I feel like that's how Kevin's brain works.

In the same way that when I was in the audience in Cornell and when I've been listening to your podcast and seeing what your life and career has become over the last quarter century, I'm like, I just like Kevin's brain, you know? Maybe I don't love every movie, but I like the brain and that's, but that is the art that you're making. So it's not, so don't denigrate yourself. You've done better than 99.9999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 House they couldn't even beat it out of me man after a month. They were like, are you cured? I was like fuck no, I still don't like myself and I still think I'm shit, but it has fueled all this I mean, that's the thing and the point that I made to them when I was in the booby hatch

Like there are moments where you know I could trace everything back to like fucking where everything begins where you know I start needing fucking validation and shit if it doesn't happen and if I then am not this needy creature constantly seeking validation from strangers I'm asked a trick mind you I don't my mother gave me validation my father gave me validation my wife gives me validation my kid my fucking dogs love me falls on deaf ears because I was like, they have to love me. Has to come from fucking strangers and shit like that. So with all this time of like trying to grab,

you know, 30 years spent seeking validation from strangers. I feel like, fuck, now I lost the question. What were we just talking about? It wasn't even a question. It was just, I think what you're talking about, that you like transformed your career into a certain thing, was always the art. It was always the thing you were making in the films. They may not look like Quentin's films or whatever,

but that is still the art that you were making. The only question I had was just that we end every episode of this show by asking filmmakers what's the last great thing that they have seen. So do you, has there anything, you run a movie theater. I do run a movie theater and let me see, what did I, I just, here, this is a higher, as higher compliment as I could pay any movie.

As I'm writing the dogma sequel, you know, you look for nourishment from movies that are like, oh, and you know, sometimes they're, there's very rarely one for one where it's like, you know, I'm not watching dogma get inspiration. It has to be something else, things you aspire to or things that have captured your imagination or things that are incredibly fucking smart, which made me pay attention the first time around. So I've been rewatching the first hour of Heretic, which I fucking love.

Like not since I made Dogma, I remember watching the movie and I'd seen the trailer, I was like, that seems interesting. So I was watching the movie and as it's playing the first like 20 minutes, this is me the whole time, where I was like, oh, oh kindred spirit. I was just gonna say the pop culture philosophizing of the film is right in your wheelhouse.

Oh my God, it was porn for me. So if you haven't seen heretic, absolutely heretic, I adore companion, which stars the same actress. Sophie Thatcher. Fantastic. She's such a great actress, but she was wonderful and companion. And I thought companion was so fucking smart and original. I'd seen the trailer and I knew kind of where it was going. I still didn't like on the day of I was like,

wow, I was very pleased by that. The last year, I'm like, wow, I was very pleased by that. Um, the last year, I'm, you know, not like awards matter, but I was like, fuck, she, they should have cleaned up the substance. Jesus Christ, man. You talk about a movie that is like, hold my beer to itself for the last half hour. You know what I'm saying? Like, I remember somebody saw it and they're like, you're gonna love it. And I was like, why do you think that? Like, well, you made Tusk. And so I thought they meant for the rubber horror of it.

And so I talked to them afterwards, it's like, you didn't know when in your movie either. And I was like, you're out of your fucking mind. I'll take the heat on Tusk, but that the fact that she kept fucking going, when it was like, all right, well, that's with it. Even if you ended it there it would be further than most filmmakers would go but every step of the way I was

like this is one of the bravest acts of cinema I've ever seen in my fucking life those are great recommendations Kevin thank you for everything and thank you for sharing some time that's a pleasure man thanks for having me on this great conversation Thanks for having me on. It was a great conversation. Thank you to Kevin Smith. Thanks to Sierra and Amanda. Thanks to our producer, Jack Sanders. We'll be back on Friday. We were going to do two different episodes. We were going to do the Life of Chuck and Materialist. I've seen Materialist now. I've seen the Life of Chuck. Do you see Life of Chuck yet, Amanda?

Going tomorrow. I got to talk to you about the schedule actually, but off mic. Okay, off mic. I see some interesting connectivity between these two projects. So I think it would be good to put them together in a conversation about what we really want from movies and how do we get it. Isn't that a conversation? Well this one is uniquely well-suited to Amanda and I. To the two of us, yeah.

Yes. So we will see you then.