The Big Picture - 'Barbarian'!!!

Episode Date: September 13, 2022

The no. 1 movie in America is a depraved, completely unpredictable horror movie: hallelujah! Sean and Amanda are joined by Chris Ryan (2:00) to talk about this wonderful freak show before Sean is joined by writer-director Zach Cregger (53:00). Hosts: Sean Fennessey and Amanda Dobbins Guests: Chris Ryan and Zach Cregger Producer: Bobby Wagner Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, everyone. This is Chris Ryan from The Ringer. As many of you have heard by now, we lost a treasured colleague and friend over the weekend. Jonathan Charks passed away on Saturday. John was 34. He leaves behind a wife and a son, and we are obviously mourning his loss and sending all of our love to his family right now. If you go to theringer.com slash Jonathan Charks, that's J-O-N-A-T-H-A-N-T-J-A-R-K-S. You will find a memorial page for John, which has links to his GoFundMe that benefits his family and the amazing writing

he did throughout his experience. I encourage you to go there. And if you can, please support the Charks family. Briefly, I will just say that John was among the first people that we hired to work for The Ringer. So he was instrumental in defining

the voice and perspective of the site. He has as much to do with what this place is as anyone else. And throughout his experience with Cancer, John communicated eloquently about the challenges he was facing, both through his writing and his podcasting. You could never stop John from talking about his passions. It's one of the things I loved about him. Over the last few months, whenever we would talk, whenever I would reach out to see how he was doing, I would try to keep it very John-focused. And the last few months, whenever we would talk, whenever I would reach out to see how he was doing, I would try to keep it very John-focused. And the next thing I knew, we would be talking about James Harden or Better Call Saul. He really loved this stuff. He loved talking about it,

celebrating it, debating it, illuminating it. We're going to keep putting out our pods and writing while we grieve, but we wanted to let folks know that John was in our hearts and that his family was in our thoughts. Thanks for listening. Get groceries delivered across the GTA from Real Canadian Superstore with PC Express. Shop online for super prices and super savings. Try it today and get up to $75 in PC Optimum Points. Visit superstore.ca to get started. I'm Sean Fennessey. I'm Amanda Dobbin. And this is The Big Picture, a conversation show about Barbarian,

the number one film at the American box office this weekend, a heretofore unknown horror film that has stunned audiences with its sick, twisty, completely unexpected structure. The writer-director of that movie, Zach Kreger, joins me later in this episode to talk about how he pulled off this absolutely awesome in-theater experience. First, we're joined by Chris Ryan. Hi, Chris. I'm a Barb. You are. It's the first time I've said that sincerely. How do the Barbs connect to the Nicki Minaj extended universe? If they can figure that out, this will be at number one for a really long time. Could be a hell of a sequel. Today's conversation, Chris and I are going to talk about the movie Barbarian. We have asked Amanda to sit here and observe us recount this absolutely deranged film.

And ask questions. Yes, which you have not seen and in all likelihood will never see. I will say I would have seen it had I the time. And this was a little bit of schedule rearranging to accommodate certain requirements of me and various head injuries. Do you want to share what happened? Sure. I'm okay. I did sustain a minor head injury at work yesterday. Spotify Legal is really nervous right now.

I'm okay. And so we had to rearrange a few things. And so I couldn't go to the movies last night to see Barbarian. Here's the thing. Yeah. We're not sure that Amanda's head injury didn't reprogram her brain to become Mandy the horror freak. Okay. That's true. Who just loves Halloween and is just like midnight movies. Let's go. I want to see some slashers.'s gonna make making this pot in October so much more fun when you're catching up on the entire history of horror cinema I have seen a couple yeah at your request so if you want to give me some homework you know

I get mad that's the thing with the horror movies it's not like I respond with glee or even fear i just get pissed off and then that's not an attitude you don't want to be there yeah yeah i i i do like getting a little bit angry in a horror movie but i was not not angry one time in barbarian um i i i have been heavily hyping this movie since i first saw it i strongly encouraged you chris to see it i knew that you would respond favorably to it um what'd you think? I did a wonderful thing. I just knew, you know, I knew I was going to like it based on like the recommendations and the enthusiasm other people are showing for it. And I went into it as blind as a bat. So you never saw the trailer? I saw the poster and I was in a movie theater with my wife a couple of weeks ago and the Barbarian trailer was on and she was like i

don't want to know anything about it and closed her eyes and put her hands over ears and i was like good idea and we just sat there with our hands over our ears and our eyes closed in the middle of a movie theater and then i feel so i was so elated to have gone into this like i i mean everybody should listen to this podcast after they've seen this movie I think or Amanda or the real life version of reading the Wikipedia horror page but it's almost like

I don't think it does it justice you know what I mean I think a description of this movie does not do it justice and this kind of just really reminded me of like

the kicking like scuttling around culture in the 90s where you're just like I heard this movie's really good but I guess I'll go see it and then you go and you you kind of are like, I need to go get a coffee and a cigarette and talk about this movie for two hours after we're done. Yes. I was really relieved

that at the screening that I attended, there was a Q&A. A lot of times when there's a Q&A after a film, I'm like, I got to go. I got to go. Let's go see my kid or whatever. In this case, I had the same feeling. I was like, I just want to hear everything about this as soon as I can. You're right that we can't talk about the movie without spoiling it. I mean, we could probably spend another five minutes kind of softly recounting our feelings about it. But part of the reason the movie works so well, and part of the reason why I think Chris is responding so excitedly

to not knowing anything is because the movie shifts a couple of times. And the marketing for the film, I think on the one hand, has misserved what the story is. But on the one hand, has misserved what the story is, but on the other hand, has helped the movie because it really wrong-foots the audience's expectations going into it. Okay.

So I think there's a couple of ways to talk about it. I think we should talk about specifically what happens. In a way, I almost want to read you that Wikipedia summary beat by beat so that you can respond to it, Amanda. Do you want to read it or do you guys... I want to perform it? I would like you to perform it. That's my request. There are some truly ghoulish things in here that I think maybe we shouldn't replicate in front of you. Yeah. Yeah. But you know, a dramatic, you know, reenactment, I guess, to, to the best of your abilities. And

if you want to tell, not show at some points, that's fine with me, whatever your comfort level. Okay. This is a great bit. We should do this for all things. It's like you, I don't go see the movies and then you come to my house and perform it for me. But we should do it with like Empire of Light. Yeah. That one seems particularly problematic.

And then there's like this shot and it's the screen and... You're saying this like you have not done this for me multiple times. No, I know, I know. It's true. Especially with Predator movies. Okay, so one more time. Spoilers here's true. Especially with Predator movies. Okay. So

one more time. Spoilers here on out. Spoilers are sure. A lot of spoilers. A lot of spoilers. Okay. Barbarian. What is it? Go. So Barbarian it is written and directed by Craigor and he is a guy who's got his start in the comedy troupe The Whitest Kids You Know. I don't know if you guys have experienced any of the

White Kids You Know stuff but they were pretty popular in the late 00s, early 2010s, and the cast of this movie is fairly small. All you really knew going into it was that Georgina Campbell, who had appeared in some British television, she appeared in a Black Mirror episode,

kind of a rising young star. And Bill Skarsgård, who played Pennywise, the clown, in It, and has played kind of the villainous figure in a handful of movies. And Justin Long was in the movie. And the film opens, and Georgina Campbell is a young woman who is arriving at an Airbnb because she has a job interview. Okay.

And it's raining, and it's nighttime. Hold on. What kind of Airbnb are we working with here? That's a very good question, because it's the central location for the entire film. Great. So the Airbnb at for the entire film. Great. So the Airbnb at night when she arrives

seems fine. Okay, decor, vibe, condo. Oh, no, like very basic Airbnb. Is it an entire place? No, no, no. It's like everything. Single home. It's like a two-bedroom residence.

Okay. It's very modest. But made for being an Airbnb. Like there's no personality. There's no soul. It's not like you're taking somebody's house for the weekend. It's like this is a property made for being an Airbnb. Like there's no personality. There's no soul. It's not like you're taking somebody's house for the weekend. It's like, this is a property made for being rented out. And it wouldn't be like a design. It wouldn't be like Airbnb plus.

No, no, no. And I love where you're going with this. I think it's important that Amanda is focusing on the Airbnb thing, not only because it's very Amanda, but because this is now one of several post-sharing economy, post-Airbnb rental. The rental is one. What was the one that was on Shudder last year that we really liked? About the travel vloggers. Remember that? No.

There was one. I'll look it up later. Then there's this. People are starting to really understand how to like bring horror and ring terror out of like these very modern sort of setups yeah i think it's a good point and i think actually chris and i off mic once talked about the possibility of an uber driver horror movie yeah and they're one of those actually came out a couple years ago called spree starring joe keery and then dash cam and then dash cam came out a couple of years ago called Spree starring Joe Keery. And then Dash Cam. And then Dash Cam came out earlier this year.

So the whole Cher economy horror has kind of come around to it. And the film, both the trailer and even just like the poster and the general setup for the movie, is leading you into what seems to be a movie that is very contained about a woman who is terrorized in an Airbnb. Okay. And Superhost was the other one I was thinking of. Superhost. There you go. Let me ask a couple more questions.

Yeah. You're going to get all your questions in before you, I mean, there's like 300 things that happened in the movie after this. That's fine. But you've already said that the location is important. I am like, production design is important to me and we got to set the scene, right? Because it's how the movie starts. Okay. Do we know what set the scene. Sure. Right? Because it's how the movie starts. Okay.

Do we know what city? Detroit. Detroit. Okay. We don't learn that until the following morning, I think. Yeah. But it is Detroit. Talk to me about the lighting in the Airbnb.

Fluorescent, like stylish lamps. Just lamps. Ikea. Like Ikea kind of level lamps. Fairly dim, not very aggressive. It's not a modern style in the home. It's a very like, it's like a replication of a 1980s home, but it's clearly been sort of rebuilt. Okay.

And then Georgina Campbell. Yeah. Yes. Her character. Age, what's the? 30. Okay. Talk to me about apparel and luggage.

Pretty basic, like stepped out of a Madewell catalog. Okay. Agreed. Great. Rollerbag or over the shoulder? Backpack and a rollerbag. Okay. What color is the rollerbag?

It was dark, so it's hard to remember. Okay, all right. It also doesn't play a huge part of the movie. Yeah, very, very. Whatever. That is, it says a lot. I'm just saying if the details I noticed. It's different.

I did not know we asked Bob Woodward to appear on today's podcast. I feel like I'm in the January 6th committee. You asked me to sit here and ask questions. I'm investing. Here's the thing I want to tell you is that when she arrives, it's night and it's raining. Okay. And it captures a very real thing that sometimes happens when you rent an Airbnb and you arrive in a strange neighborhood at night, which is that you kind of can't really get your bearings. You're looking for the address. You probably have it up on Google Maps or something like that. You're very,

you're very like, it's disorienting focused on getting into the apartment or the house, but you're not like, oh, at a coffee shop and I'll be going there to check out the, you know, whatever. You're just like,

okay, I got to get into this thing. She gets up to the door. She tries the code on the lockbox. She opens the lockbox. There's no key in. She's trying to figure out what's going on. She's confused.

It's late. It's raining. It's Detroit. And then a light goes on inside of the house. Okay. Okay. So a light goes on the inside of the house. She rings the bell a couple of times.

No, you got to run away. It's the middle of the night. And a man opens the door. And it's Bill No, you gotta run away. It's the middle of the night, and a man opens the door, and it's Bill Skarsgård. And he's like, what's up? Nope. Let's just take a minute to talk about Bill Skarsgård at this exact moment, because he is, of

course, the younger brother of Alexander Skarsgård, the son of Stellan Skarsgård, and is now, I think, world-renowned for being Pennywise. And he's a very handsome man but he has a very haunted look and if you arrive at an airbnb and you're supposed to be in the house and bill scars guard is in the house it's tough because both scars guards the younger are like scary hot you know but there is there's sort of like this is dangerous but the film the film leverages that sensation because as soon as georgina campbell's

character arrives she is very frustrated by the circumstances and it becomes very clear that this home has been quote-unquote double booked that she has used one service to book the house and that he has used a different service and then they show each other evidence of the fact that they have been double booked now everything that bill scars guards character does from this moment through the basically the next 15 to 20 minutes of the film is simultaneously reassuring and uncomfortable yeah he's trying to make her feel safe and at home he's trying to get to the bottom of this issue but he's also doing things like giving her tea, but she hasn't watched him make the tea. He's saying like, let me help you with your bags. Let

me get you your stuff. Let me run out to the car to help you out with things. All things that a woman in this circumstance who was talking to a stranger, it's late at night, would be made to feel deeply uncomfortable. And the film is working very hard to make you feel like this is a movie about a guy who's gonna dismember a woman who comes to this house okay and it continues to play out and then as the night goes on and so she decides to stay there it's basically like she tries he's like look it's raining come on in you can look for a hotel she goes in she gets cleaned up she like starts looking for a hotel everything's booked there's a convention in town according to this guy he's like oh there's a convention here i bet you're gonna have a hotel. She goes in, she gets cleaned up. She like starts looking for a hotel. Everything's booked. There's a convention in town, according to this guy.

He's like, oh, there's a convention here. I bet you're going to have a hard time. Which is one of those lines that sounds fake. It almost sounds like he has created this scenario in order to ensnare her. Right. Even though we learn, in fact, it's likely true. Yeah, and he is who he says he is.

It turns out as the night goes on, is that she's in town to interview with a documentary filmmaker. And she seems to be somewhat of an obscure documentary filmmaker but the guy is like have you would i have seen something that she has made and she he's like probably not there's this jazz documentary and he's like oh yeah i thought that was great and he starts describing scenes from the movie and she's like charmed by this because he's okay cool guy and now she's going to make a movie about artists who have moved to Detroit and started buying up basically like free houses to start art collectives.

And he's like, you should interview me. I'm one of those artists. And it turns out like he's this major like Detroit artist, like underground artist who's going around and like rehabbing houses. And the reason why he's in this neighborhood is because he's like scouting for new places. And the film goes from being very quickly, being deeply uncomfortable and menacing to having like shades of potential romance, but also underneath, like at the bottom of my heart, my feeling was like, this is actually one big scam. Like this is actually, he is really like working her to get her in the most vulnerable position

possible, even though it's sort of become like a meet cute and they're sort of starting to hit it off. And ultimately she decides to stay at the house overnight. He gives her the bedroom. Okay. He takes the couch. She has her big interview the next day. He has something to go to the following morning. Smash cut to her sleeping overnight and she wakes up in a fright and the door is open in her bedroom, which we had clearly seen previously that she had closed and locked.

She comes out of the room. She sees Bill Skarsgård sleeping on the couch and he is clearly having a nightmare and screaming to himself. And she is so disturbed and she wakes him up and he wakes up and he's frightened and he doesn't understand what's going on. And there's this sense of tension, but he says that he had been sleeping and that he didn't open the door. And she goes back to bed and then smash cut again to the following morning. Yeah. And so she goes off for her job interview, but like he has left her a note that's like

great meeting you. Great hanging out last night. See you later. Just leave me the key. Good luck at your job interview. She goes, she has this great job interview. At the end of the interview, where she's gotten the job, it seems like, right? The documentary filmmaker says like, oh, where are you staying?

And she's like, oh, in an Airbnb in this neighborhood. She's like, you should not be staying there. There's one and one key detail we learn when she leaves the house the following morning before on her way to the job interview is that since it's daytime, we see that she is the home itself is very nice, but the surrounding neighborhood is completely decrepit. It is like truly abandoned.

Right, okay. And it has been effectively destroyed. There's clearly no one else living there. It looks like a hurricane hit it, except for this one house. Okay. So she gets back to the house, and as she's going up to the house,

what looks like a vagrant starts running towards her, screaming, get out of towards her screaming get out of that house get out of that house okay so she gets into the house and is freaked out and calls the cops and they're like basically like well is he still there are you in really any danger we don't really have the people to send so she doesn't really know what to do so she gets her things together and she goes to use the bathroom okay she well sits down in the bathroom and she realizes there's no toilet paper okay

she's all alone in this house and she's like where's the toilet paper she starts wandering around and now the film is getting very ominous sure so she looks in one closet one cabinet no toilet paper she sees that there is a door to a basement oh good great job she goes down into the basement okay this is she sees the toilet paper down we're only like 15 minutes okay well i'm sorry but like a number of situations where it's i understand that this is the point of the movie but don't you get mad this movie is entirely about don't go down there okay that's the whole movie and it's about like what what are you tempted by what are you curious about and what are you scared of and the way that those things overlap okay so but now i'm angry don't

whatever keep going everything that has happened to this point including this moment in which she goes into the basement and the door of of course, closes behind her and locks. It's all cliche that the filmmaker is messing. Okay, all right. He is leveraging your expectations for movies like this. Yes. Some of the things that happen

are so obvious to the point of idiocy. Right, sure. Now, the door slams and she's down in the basement and she's looking around and I think she does, in fact, find the toilet paper, but she gets trapped.

And when she gets trapped, she's looking around and I think she does in fact find the toilet paper but she gets trapped and when she gets trapped she starts scanning around and she sees a number of items and then she sees like an escape room kind of situation where she's like what could I use to get out of here what could I use to do on escape rooms uh no but I understand like the logic of them kind of like I understand like when you walk into an escape room like your whole thing is supposed to be like you're basically scanning for like clues or clues or, like, tools to get out. Right? So she's. We should do an escape room and record it. Okay.

You'd be really good at it. I'm a little concerned about being in an escape room with you. Why? Because I think you get a little tense. No, I think you could. I could see you being, like, a puzzle person. Right? Well.

Do you not get a little tense? Am I wrong? But in an escape room room i know i'm not actually in jeopardy i think we should buy a home together the three of us and rebuild the barbarian home yeah that's a good idea yeah because here's what happens okay um she does discover theoretically a way out it's not through the window it's through a hidden door of course it's a secret door of course there's always a secret job and She pushes that door open and she finds a corridor. And to the left,

there is another door. And in that door, we have a white room with a very old bed and a very old mattress and a chair and an old school video camera set up. Okay. And it's clear that this is a prison. It's a murder hut.

A murder hut or like a sex dungeon murder hut? Nice little combo of both. There's a bloody handprint on the wall. Okay. It's a very disturbing vision. Okay. And she's really

getting freaked out now. And she's really upset. I would hope so. She races out and she starts banging on the door to get out of the basement. You know,

she climbs back up the stairs and is banging on the door and banging on the door. Lo and behold, Bill Skarsg, she climbs back up the stairs and is banging on the door and banging on the door. Lo and behold, Bill Skarsgård comes back and he returns to the house. Okay. And on the one hand, we're like, holy shit, he's here to murder her.

He's here to put her in this prison room. And on the other hand, we're like, maybe he'll save her. We don't know what's going to happen. He comes, hears her banging on the door. Okay. He opens the door and she starts explaining what's happened and she's really upset and she wants to get out of the house. And he's like, hey, hey, hey, slow down, slow down.

You're talking crazy. And she's really upset. And she wants to get out of the house. And he's like, hey, hey, hey, slow down, slow down. You're talking crazy. I can't understand you. Let me go look at what's downstairs. Like, let me understand what you're talking about. Because I don't understand what you're saying to me. And I want to better understand what's happening before you race out of here. How did she get out of the basement? They opened the window.

Oh, okay. Oh, is that how she gets out of here? Yeah, remember, he's like, you push, you pull, and I'll push. Right. Oh, okay, got it. Okay. So he decides he wants to go down into the basement. Okay.

We're 20 minutes in right now? Pretty much. Yeah. Half an hour. Okay. So basically, there's a really great scene between the two of them where he is doing the same thing he was kind of doing last night, which is like, I don't believe you and I don't really care.

But at the same time, I'm using all the language of like, like hey I understand this must be scary for you or I understand this must be weird for you but I think it's really important I just need to check out and make sure like what's going on down there so of course doubling down on your anger he not only goes but he seems to truly disappear like she hears his voice once and then he's like not responding to her anymore so she then sets up oh she does the lighting thing before right with the mirror there's a really cool trick she does where she like balances a full-length mirror against an overhead light so that the light shines down this dark hallway uh which is just sort of like a very key visual motif for the rest of the movie but it's very cool and it turns out that there's another passageway

after the murder room. Oh, good. And that is just a basically looking like a cold storage basement that goes down. It is a true subterranean cave-like experience that has like 30 steps going downward. It is horrifying when she discovers that Bill Skarsgård's character has gone down

even further into this hell pit. Okay. And she can really only faintly hear him yelling. And we are surrounded by darkness. And she's using, I think, the light on her phone or maybe a flashlight that she's had to light the way. And so the only thing that we can see is whatever lights the way that's in front of her. And at a certain point, she's walking. We don't really have a sense

of our own geography. She turns the camera or she turns the flashlight to the right and we see cages, almost like dog kennel cages that have been abandoned and have clearly been there

for decades. Okay. And she's getting very upset and scared. Yeah. And we hear Bill Skarsgård in the deep distance screaming at this point.

Okay. And finally, his voice is getting closer and closer and closer and closer. And finally, those haunted eyes of his appear in the light. And he is deeply upset. He's almost dragging his body. He says that something has bit him. Something bit me.

Okay. Now, the movie is getting extremely scary at this point. All right. And we don't know what's bit him. We don't know where they are. Three, ten. Three cages. Yeah. It doesn't matter. Yeah. Okay. point all right sure and we don't know what's bit him we don't know where they are three three cages yeah well it doesn't matter yeah okay i mean if there were 50 cages it would matter perhaps true um yeah and then all of a sudden like a bolt of lightning as they are trying to

gather themselves and escape something grabs bill skarsgård's head. Okay. And starts smashing it violently against the wall. Gross. I don't like that. And the thing that is doing it, and this is really where the movie turns. Okay. Is a giant, naked, middle-aged woman. Great.

Okay. Who is deformed in some way. When you say giant, pretty big. She may not be like seven feet tall, but she seems monstrous. Like truly, literally monstrous. Okay. And. So they smash.

It's Bill Skarsgård has been killed. He's dead. There's one shot of Georgina Campbell reacting to this. And then we get. One of the funniest cuts ever? A smash cut to Justin Long driving in a sports car down the PCH. Singing along

to Donovan's Rikki-Tikki-Tabby word for word. Yes. That's really funny. It's an amazing cut. It's really good. Because the whole audience

at this point has been 30 consecutive minutes of like, Jesus Christ, what is going to happen? Right. And then something happens that you don't expect,

which is the ostensible villain of this movie is killed by a giant naked woman. So can we do just like a second about this movie, not plot, just I want to say, so when this happens, obviously it's this super disorienting moment as an audience member because you're like,

is this movie a comedy now? And you're also thinking like, is this movie a comedy now? And you're also thinking like, is this movie just an anthology? Are we in California now? Like, what does this guy have to do with what I've just been going through for the last 30 minutes? And, you know, I think that in a weird way,

like, this is the most Tarantino moment of a movie outside of Quentin Tarantino that I've seen in a really long time. And it kind of reminded me of some of the stuff that he would do on the margins of the movies that he would do, like when he would write for from dust till dawn. And you would kind of be watching that and you'd be like, I have an idea of who these people are and who's important in this movie. And then that person would be a vampire and get killed or something like that. And this movie plays with audience

expectations and crucially casting in that way. So Justin Long is a TV actor, it seems like, and he's doing a conference call on his speakerphone on his car, and it quickly turns out that he is being MeToo'd. That he is finding out that he is being accused of sexual assault by his co-star. In a show that a pilot has just been shot and it was going to be picked up. Right.

And he is on the verge of breaking through. Got it. And he's a dickhead. Like, it's like, he's ambiguously like a real asshole. And you're just kind of like, what is going on? What is going on? And for the next 10 minutes, his, you know, it's basically, he's getting dropped by his agents.

He gets dropped by his accountants. He's getting, you know, basically like really increasingly canceled out of existence. He's in a lot of trouble. His lawyers are really concerned. Just kind of like, what's happening? And then finally, as he's trying to figure out how he's going to pay for his legal fees and his burn rate of his income, it's mentioned, well, you do have those properties in Detroit. Oh, okay. Yes. So Justin Long very quickly returns to this home in Detroit, which he owns, which has

been the scene of this issue. And in fact, he arrives fairly shortly after the incident that we saw in the first 30 minutes of the movie. And he shows up at the house and he sees other people's belongings. Yeah. And he's really confused. He calls the property manager.

He's like, dude, did we rent this place out? And she's like, no. I mean, like nobody is supposed to be in there

for another two weeks. Which of course is bizarre because in fact, two people are staying there simultaneously. Right. They were double booked. And he's trying to figure out

what's really going on and get to the bottom of this. But because he's this overt asshole, this real know-it-all, this real kind of chauvinistic, you know, dickhead, he's sauntering around the house with none of the fear that Georgina Campbell's character had or even Bill Skarsgård's character had.

He's like, this is my house, I own it. And every time he discovers something that is part of the scare of the movie, whether it be the basement and the basement locking or the secret corridor and the murder room or the subterranean dip downstairs into the cage, every time the movie effectively works as a comedy where he thinks that this is great for the property that he's going to sell. Yeah, because he's like, square footage. Do I have more square footage?

That's funny. And he literally gets out a tape measure and that he's going to sell. Yeah, because he's like, square footage is going on. Do I have more square footage? That's funny. And he literally gets out a tape measure, and he starts measuring room to room. He's literally measuring wall to wall in a room with a bloody handprint on it, not even realizing. Right. It's played very well. I think Craigers comedy timing and pacing. And Justin Long is really funny. Very funny.

Right. And he's effectively carrying the movie by himself. He's having phone calls by himself in the shot. he's moving all through this house all by himself he goes past a room that's purple lit by a tv that's playing yes and he looks into the room and on the tv screen this is like a room in one of the basements is a breastfeeding video instructional video okay looks like it's probably for it's from a vintage one. What'd you learn? Well,

breastfeeding's a really important part of this movie. It certainly is. Is it really? Yes, literally. Jesus Christ. Okay.

There's a part of me that really wants you to just stop listening to us and go see the movie, but I also don't think it would be good for you to see the movie. No, yeah.

It's too soon for me to be doing all of the kid stuff. So, okay, continue. So at this point, I don't want to say all is revealed, but a lot is revealed, which is to say that the monster returns.

The monster returns, captures Justin Long's character, and throws him in a pit. Georgina Campbell's down there. Okay, tough break. She's alive. He's like, what the fuck? He has a knife

because he had brought a knife with him down there, but they haven't knife. And sooner or later, this monster comes along and sticks a bottle, a baby bottle, into the gate above them and is just like, drink. Okay. And she says, if you know what's good for you, you'll drink. Yeah.

And if you don't, you're going to be really upset. Yeah. So Georgina Campbell drinks from the bottle. This is a very disgusting oversized bottle of milk. Okay. Yeah, and Justin Long refuses. Yeah. And this beast jumps into the pit.

Okay. And as she takes Justin Long away for advanced breastfeeding, I guess, Georgina Campbell escapes. Okay. Justin Long's character is literally dragged back into that purple lit room that I described. Okay. And this gigantic nude monster woman that we come to learn is known as quote-unquote mother i mean forces justin long to breastfeed okay and the movie has completely shifted from pure bone chilling thriller horror

slasher yeah to absurd comic horror like way more in the kind of Sam Raimi vein of horror storytelling. And so like, like Craig has talked about this in interviews, but like the first 30 minutes of the movie is pure like Takashi Miike. Like it's like deeply unsettling Japanese horror style.

And then the next 30 minutes is this really ghoulish, outlandish kind of creature effects movie that we're not totally sure. Like, I will say the movie, I was a little nervous it was going to, like, slip through its own fingers when we got to this part because it's very silly and it's very funny and very gross out,

but we don't really have any understanding of what's going on with the monster. We don't understand any motivation. We're with Georgina Campbell. Like, we're rooting for her. She is the heroine, truly, of the movie, and she she's hopefully starting to escape but we don't know what's happening and then i think it's at this point that the film goes to flashback does it happen before she escapes her after i can't remember it's it's right around the same time basically there's another smash cut

okay and we're in the early 80s detroit as reagan's elected right yes and we're in the early 80s Detroit as Reagan's elected, right? Yes. And we're with a guy who is an older, like in his 50s, 40s white man who is on his way to the grocery store. He's driving away from what is obviously the home we have been in the whole time. But it is a picture perfect suburban neighborhood. White picket fence. Yes. It is before everything has been raised in the town. Goes to the supermarket and all the things he's getting

are for a newborn baby. Oh no. Yeah. What it basically turns out is that this guy is the sort of architect of all this evil shit. Okay. And he is not only got something in his house

that requires all this baby stuff, but is also driving around looking for women to be the mama in the house. He stalks a woman at the supermarket, follows her back to her home, puts on a uniform that indicates he works for the electrical company, enters her home as though he works for the electrical company. And locks her windows, right? Locks her window. So that he, or unlocks her window so that he can enter the home and kidnap her and he's clearly kidnapping people kidnapping women

and detaining them drugging them raping them impregnating them and they're having children yeah are you seeing all of this no you don't see that very you know this is an odd word i think the homeless guy tells him that tells him that right yes there is the homeless guy who had of this? No, you don't see that part. It's very, you know, this is an odd word to use, but it's very artfully made. The homeless guy tells him that. Tells him that, right? Yes, the homeless guy who had chased Georgina Campbell's character

eventually becomes kind of like an explainer. Yeah, and so he helps get when we go back to the present day. Okay. So we don't see a lot of this. Goes back to the present day.

The homeless guy helps her get away. And there's a real like crisis of like should she just run or should she go back to help justin long justin long who we know is a piece of shit so there's like a little bit of like don't go back

to help that guy right you know uh but you know also like she doesn't know that and she's gone back she goes back to help him she goes back to get him out and in fact um i think one of the clever aspects of the story is she while she's escaping and she's you know she looks completely She goes back to help him. There's someone trapped in this house. I need you to help me. And they drive her back to the house, but they don't really believe her. And they knock on the door a few times and nobody answers. And they treat her like a vagrant. They treat her, and she's not a white person, and they treat her like shit. And they abandon her.

And so she breaks back into the house herself. And when she goes back in, she attempts to make a valiant save of Justin Long's life. What happens after that? She gets back down into the basement. Yeah. I mean, there's a whole thing with when she gets back to the house, she goes into her car. And as she's about to either drive away or she's clearly trying to decide what to do, she sees something off screen that we don't see and drives her car into this mama character right okay so basically like impaling the the character like the monster throwing it into the house and then goes and gets justin long

and as they come out she's like shit the monster's not the mother has disappeared she's no longer impaled on the house right so they she's loose run off okay oh fuck i forgot there's a whole thing where she goes that one as she goes down into the basement to get justin long justin long has confronted the old man who's still alive she oh the original the guy from the flashback he has escaped escaped from mother's grasp. Okay. He's roaming through this corridor and he can't find anything and he discovers a door.

He hears a TV and here's this man 30, 40 years later. Okay. You know, enfeebled in bed. All right. Can't speak.

There are hundreds of video cassettes in the room. Okay. Which he quickly learns have captured every terrible thing that he has done to these women over the years.

We don't really see any of that, but it's very strongly implied. Okay. Justin Long at first thinks that he needs to save this man. Oh boy. That he has, is having a problem. And then we, he quickly realizes where he is, which is that he's really in this man's pain den. Right.

And the old man keeps gesturing for something on a side table. He keeps gesturing and gesturing and gesturing. Finally, Justin Long brings the table over to him. He reaches into the drawer. The old man pulls out a gun. Okay. Oh, good.

Justin Long thinks the guy's going to kill him. It turns out that the guy commits suicide right in front of him. Okay. Whether that's because Justin Long has discovered what he's done or whether he's just on death's door, it's door.

It's unclear. Yeah. But again, a very, this is like the 18th deeply disturbing scene of the movie. He's running through the halls trying to get out of there. Georgina Campbell is trying to get to him to help him. She plays a character named Tess, by the way. She's trying to help him. They finally are like getting closer and closer. And he accidentally shoots her.

He's like, you know, so then he drags her out of the house. Okay. Okay. They're walking, but you know, he accidentally shoots her he's like you know so then he drags her out of the house okay okay they're walking but you know he has shot her but at least he like helps her get out of the house and they're walking and walking and walking and they finally happen to cross the compound of this homeless guy living in this neighborhood in Detroit who goes on to explain a little bit about the like this guy backstory he's the monster she's the monster she goes out at night you know blah blah he suggests not only is she the monster, she's the monster, she goes out at night, you know, blah, blah, blah. He suggests not only is she the daughter, but she is, like, the daughter of the daughter. Like, there has been inbreeding and incest.

It is, like, an awful, gnarly history of destruction and awfulness. And the movie, I think, tonally, again, kind of flips again because then it just becomes it becomes like a pure creature feature where mother arrives at the homeless person's den. Great. He ripped, the mother rips off the homeless man's arm and kills the homeless man with it. Yeah. You could argue that he probably died with the arm ripping off. But yeah, sure. With his own disembodied arm.

Then there's basically a chase sequence that goes up to the top of a water tower and in the moment of truth where it's like Georgina Campbell's injured Justin Long's there he reverts back to form and is like

I basically have to sacrifice you so that I can live the mother is so infatuated with Georgina Campbell who's been this you know very willing participant

in the breastfeeding process and everything that he sort of shoves Georgina Campbell, who's been this, you know, very willing participant in the breastfeeding process and everything, that he sort of shoves Georgina Campbell off the top of this water tower. And the monster goes diving after her baby. Okay. The monster falls to the ground. Georgina Campbell lands on the monster. Great. Justin Long goes down to investigate and is kind of like saying like you know I'm sorry I had to do it I'm so sorry I'm so sorry

she's injured but still alive and then the mother wakes up and crushes Justin Long's skull oh okay and a pretty satisfying death I guess

it's mother wakes up and literally grabs his head and squeezes his eyes out with her thumbs yeah alright

it is a real like thank god like everyone cheering in the audience kind of moment. Got it. Because the thing with the Justin Long character is, and you know, I guess you could call this social commentary. He's clearly a rapist in the first part of the film, or when we first are introduced to him, there is a little bit of ambiguity about whether what he actually did and the idea of the he said she said in hollywood sorry i forgot and there there is some sort of like it's unclear and

we like justin long right as an actor and so like in some ways we're with him even though he seems like kind of a dipshit and the more he talks about this incident the more it's obvious that he's a piece of shit he's done something really terrible at one point he meets up with a friend in detroit and the friend is like, hey man, you could tell me, just me and you, like what really happened?

And he's drunk and he starts describing what happened and it's clear that he's like coerced her and he's done something terrible. she took some convincing I think is what he said.

Okay. And then when he gets home later that night and he calls her and leaves a voicemail and he like is drunkenly apologizing effectively for what he's done.

And so as time goes on, he becomes a worse and worse and worse guy the more we get to know him. And the movie culminates in this ending where we learn like he would literally kill a woman to save himself in the face of monstrous death. Right. And in fact, you know, he gets his just desserts.

Like he is truly punished. Yeah. Georgina Campbell's character is still alive mother is standing there gazing at her baby this this grown woman that she has come to adopt as her child and she wants to take care of her but georgina campbell's character has the gun right and she puts mother out of her misery and then it's a wide shot and will you still love me tomorrow starts playing stop it yep and and the credits start rolling okay and it's georgina campbell not unlike some of the great final girl shots of

like texas chainsaw masker and stuff dragging herself down the road as the sun is coming up she's been shot she's been thrown off a water tower she's been forced to suckle from this woman's breast sure yeah and she survived and it. And it's just a whole lot of fun. It's just a really, really fun movie. Okay, I want to ask you something really quickly. Yes. This has been a really weird movie year. Yes.

This might be a top four movie, top three movie once we get to the end of it even i i think this movie was incredible uh it's been a really cool summer of this and nope and coming out of these movies and just being like what the fuck were they trying to say with that there's so much uh reference like it's not overt it's explicit. Nobody talks like they're on Twitter. But there is obviously stuff about gentrification, about white flight,

about toxic masculinity, about all these different things happening in this movie. And they are all under the surface. Like, they're never, like, hitting you over the head. You know, I don't even know why they... Did you ask him why he called it

barbarian? You know, like... He did answer that question in a Q&A. Well, one, the street where the home is is on Barbary Street. Yeah, okay. But I think when he was asked the question in the Q&A,

he literally said, I was typing in my garage and the document needed a name. Okay. And that was a good name for a movie. And that was it. And it is a good name for this movie. Because who is the barbarian

is really the question. This is also one of the true charms of this movie is that there are a couple of things I have to be honest. Not charms.

Yeah. Okay. One of the really cool parts of this movie Okay. Thank you. is for as

perfectly constructed and inventive as it is there are definitely parts of it that remain ambiguous why is it called barbarian because he needed it but also because like it has this ominous feeling there's some stuff that we didn't mention like for instance when georgina campbell's character arrives at the house she keeps getting calls from a guy named marcus and

we don't really hear a lot about him we hear that like they're basically breaking up and stuff, but it's unclear as to maybe she's on the run from this guy. Why is she showing up here in the middle of the night in the rain in a neighborhood? She doesn't know like there is, he leaves enough unanswered. Why is Bill Skarsgård character having nightmares? You know, all this stuff that's just kind of like, oh, okay. And then the plot moves forward, but it gives you just, it keeps you off kilter the entire time. Like, why is the property management company constantly renting this place out to people if there's like, do people stay there and live ever?

Like who has ever like gone to that house and gotten out? You know, all these things that are like sort of lingering ellipses, but like for the most part, this is one of the most like inventively constructive movies I've seen in a movie theater in a long time. And to Chris's point, some things are clearly and deeply explained and other things are an utter mystery. There's also, there's something a little bit cosmic,

I think with the success of the movie, because this also came up in the Q&A, which I thought was a wonderful detail. And the filmmakers had no idea that this was the case, but the home is at 476 barbary street in the year 476 that is when the barbarians invaded rome and he zach crager was like that isn't why i named the movie this like that has nothing to do with anything it's just a coincidence like just people on reddit discovered that that was the case right right and so there's

all these like very small convergences there's also like there is this hugely clever act of casting in the movie where if you know even just a little bit about the movie you're sitting through the first 30 minutes like where the fuck is justin long uh-huh why is just something not in the movie and then when we get him it's like we're in a completely different movie and it takes another 20 minutes to understand what we're really plays on if you follow actors at all you're like Bill Skarsgård's probably going to be the bad guy. Right. And Justin Long is probably going to be the good guy. Yes. But it turns out Bill Skarsgård is probably actually a pretty decent guy. And Justin Long is essentially the villain, you know? And it's also like a tragic story of love lost.

Like Bill Skarsgård and Georgina Campbell have great chemistry and might end up together. And she might get this job with this documentary. Yeah. Okay. What you're describing in many ways sounds very interesting. And also, Chris, I'm trying here.

And Chris's point, like, the idea that it sort of resists that ratification that Sean just mentioned of, you know, there are things that, like, can't be explained and there isn't some, like,

you know, wiki with, like, all the lore of the, like, barbarian extended universe that we can, like, come answer that. I mean, number one, that's just, like, refreshing based on how, like, culture works and that seems cool and is unsettling. On the other hand, if I can just be real with you, what the fuck? Like, and specifically, can we speak about the whole breastfeeding mother thing? Because I love you guys very much and you found a lot of social commentary.

But what is going on? I can't say. Hi. You know, I didn't ask Zach about this. Really? It's a good point. The monster villain is named Mother. But she's not the monster.

That is ultimately the takeaway from the movie is that's the other wrong footing. As you think through the second 30 minutes of this film, that this gigantic woman is the monster. And she's not. She's one of the victims. She actually is, even if she is the result of psychotic inbreeding, has feelings and has a motherly instinct and is trying to take care of something. Okay. And that that is ultimately her doom in a way, which maybe if you want to read deeply into it and you know the tolls of trying to take care of something, that it can be destructive.

Yes. And I think that that is a comment. Yeah. I don't know if Zack Craig has kids, but again, it's not, the point of that sequence is not like mothers are monsters. The point is that like mothers come from somewhere and they are like a victim of their circumstances. And that these two guys, Justin Long's character and this sort of unnamed, I guess, guy who's basically a serial killer are the true evil behind this monster. Exactly. Exactly. And so it extends really beyond toxic masculinity

into barbarism, into something that is much more dire. And what's the line? What's the difference between the Justin Long character and this guy who's a serial killer? What are the fine lines between them? And also don't trivialize things like Me Too when in fact they're correlated deeply

to these terrible behaviors that extend decades centuries etc um it's all pretty cleverly constructed and it's also we're explaining right now we're doing a movie podcast the movie is not like you should think more clearly about me too no you know like it's a theme and it's an idea in the movie right but it's not forcing it down your throat because the movie itself, the raw telling of the story is so entertaining and in such good hands throughout the entire movie. You know what it is? I hope Zach Kreger goes on to make a hundred great movies. I hope this is the arrival of a great new filmmaker. I don't really know what's going to happen here.

I think part of the reason why the whole thing is just so great is it's just totally surprising. I didn't really know anything about the movie when I sat down. I had no expectation. And that's what's cool about success is that it seems like it's sincerely word of mouth because there's no movies, there's no stars in this. Yes. It's also been, it's like a, it's a, it's not a victim, but it's like a hero of its own circumstance. It's been like six pretty brutal weeks of the movies. There hasn't been a lot to see. And so so for some and this movie hasn't made a hundred million dollars it made like 10 million dollars but that's pretty good for a little movie like this and it's encouraging it's like it's why i want to be doing the podcast you know it's like sometimes stuff like this happens do you think i can ever see it no well we didn't you know where it's going now well i know

where it's going but i am also still breastfeeding i think you can skip past that part at some point i'm just like looking for a positive representation as opposed to like being like the creature with the bottle being like, hey, you know, it's been a long road.

Maybe wait until you're done breastfeeding. And honestly, this sounds like it could be an honest representation of the experience. Well, I think you might find some humor in that.

You know, I think you might. I don't know whether I'm ready for the humor yet. Have you found any sub-basements in your home recently? No, but, you know. You're in a renovation phase.

I am in a renovation phase. Everything I've learned about basements in California teaches me that I just don't want to find them. Yeah, right. Right. Yeah.

You gonna go to Detroit anytime soon? No, I don't think so. I mean, I have no business purpose to go, you know. Okay. Is there have no business purpose to go. Okay. Is there anything else you want to say

about this movie? Did Phoebe like it? She did. I think she had like more, my wife Phoebe and I go to a lot of horror movies together, obviously.

She had some, like, she and I had a long conversation about the tonal shift when Justin Long shows up and the comic part of him measuring

the square footage and whether that took either of us out of it a little bit for a second. Because it's basically like the Will Ferrell, Austin Powers bit where it's like, it's funny, he's measuring. And then it's like, he's still measuring. And then he keeps measuring. It goes on. And it kind of, it's the one moment where it's like, would anyone in the world still be like, this is great square footage if you're going into what is clearly like a murder cave with cages in it and you're still like,

I got my tape measure out. So like that, I think was a little bit of like, while very funny, a little bit of like a tonal shift. It is. And it's a risk in a movie that had otherwise been playing it so straight. Like it wasn't winking at you at all through the first 30 minutes.

And even that moment when Skarsgård's character has his head smashed in, I mean, it is like deathly serious. And like, it's scary and funny because the creature is so ridiculous. But you're like, holy cow. And it does. But I think that's by design

because within five minutes, we are in, and I should say in the flashback sequence, there's like some different color grading on the film. I think the lenses are different. And it's almost like a fisheye lens. So it's almost like we're seeing things through the eyeballs of the psychotic character almost like on his shoulder. It's very disorienting. It's very inspired by this movie Angst

this 1983 German movie about a serial killer which is really which is firmly in the you should never watch camp. Okay. But if you're a sicko like me, you'll watch, you like and enjoy. Um,

I don't, maybe not enjoy. Did he cite that? He did. Um, wow. So Zach is a real one. Like he's a real horror guy.

He really knows the history of this stuff. Um, I, this movie is a lot of fun. And maybe that says a lot about what a weirdo I am, but I thought it was a lot of fun. Yeah. I mean,

it's, it's, it's, it's, it was, it was like a real, like, it's been a while, I guess since note, since I like went to a lot of fun. Yeah. I mean, it's, it's, it's, it was, it was like a real, like, it's been a while, I guess since Note, since I like went to a movie and then was like,

I just want to read everything that's been written about this. And I want to think about it and talk about it with everybody who's seen it. Well, any closing questions or thoughts, Amanda? It sounds fun. It's the, the mom thing is tough right now. I was going to ask Chris, is this, do we annoy you now? Because I always got like, not annoyed,

but when people are like, well, my kid, my baby, like I can't watch this thing, you know? And now, and now I'm like,

I'm really sorry, but I just, it, it's like a physical thing. It's not annoying. You've had a number of years with Andy Greenwald. Yeah.

Sharing that perspective. And I apologize to everyone who in my head, sometimes I was like, all right, simmer down, your baby. I think in retrospect you know I don't think I appreciated how much of television was about a young woman has been murdered you know and then Andy was just like I don't really

like this anymore yeah yeah yeah because in in my head I'm just like that's just the setup come on like it's really about Kate Winslet's accent. But like, when watching Barbarian, you're not like this hits too close to home. Like it doesn't, there's no home here. Start making food with your body and then call me. Okay. And with that. Well, Chris Amanda, thank you. Let's go to my conversation with Zach Kroeger to talk more about Barbarian. There's the sausage bacon and egg, a crispy seasoned chicken one, a spicy end egg worth the detour. They sound amazing. Bet they taste amazing too.

Wish I had a mouth. Take your morning into a delicious new direction with McDonald's new breakfast wraps. Add a small premium roast coffee for a dollar plus tax at participating McDonald's restaurants. So excited to be talking to Zach Kreger here on the show, writer, director of Barbarian. That may not be where everyone knows you from though, Zach. You had a life before you were a horror filmmaker. I had a life, yes. What happened?

You were the guy from The Whitest Kids You Know and you were in comedy and you were on sitcoms and then all of a sudden you're the new John Carpenter. What happened? You know, I've always loved horror. I'm a big genre fan. And, you know, I write a lot in my garage late at night just for myself. And, you know, one night I just kind of got this little kernel of an idea and I just sort of followed my fingers.

I never expected this to be a movie. I never calculated like any kind of a career pivot. It was really just, just for me, like the way a little kid, you know, colors with crayons. And so, um, yeah, it was, it was just a, just a creative exercise that kind of grew. Were you looking to make a change, even if it wasn't a change to horror, were you looking for like a reset or trying to imagine what the next phase of your career was going to be? Well, you know, I'd had a really, a really negative, uh, feature experience in like 2008. I don't know if you, I made this, I made this movie with my, my late best friend, Trevor Moore. And it was one of those things where it was just compromised from the beginning. It was a movie I didn't want to make in the first

place. It was like a sex comedy that I wasn't interested in, but you know, I was, I was in my twenties and it was like, say yes, you know, say yes to this. And, uh, and I did. And, you know, I think there's that adage of you shine a piece of shit. And at the end of the day, you got a shiny piece of shit. And I think that that's kind of what happened there. I took the low hanging fruit and I, and it was a, was a bad experience, and people didn't like the movie, and it was trashed, and it made no money, and I felt like I was over. I felt like everybody

was talking about me. Everybody knew that I blew it, and I thought I was way more important than I was, and the fact of the matter is, success is louder than failure in Hollywood, but failure is louder to you. And so I had to kind of like, get over myself and took me it took me a long time to

realize like, I don't have to be in director jail, I don't even matter enough to be in director jail, like I can just try and get back on the horse. So I after about five years of just feeling like a failure and just acting on sitcoms and stuff, I was like, I want to direct. That's what I wanted to be as a little kid. So if I'm going to do it, I got to just start doing it. So I just started writing. I wrote a bunch of scripts, and this was the one that got made. So I want to know about the raising money to make this movie and the making of it,

especially because you felt like even if you weren't actually in Director Jail, you imagined yourself in Director Jail. Plus, it's a genre that you hadn't worked in previously. Like, can you talk me through how barbarian came to be? Yeah. And it's a weird, it's a weird structure, right? There's a lot in this movie that is a barrier of entry for anyone, let alone a first time director, which I do consider myself. Cause that was like a co-directing situation. Um, and I gave it to everyone I knew in town. Uh,

my agent sent it around. I got, I got a couple of like nibbles from some people that were really exciting, but ultimately everybody wanted me to change the things about it that I thought made it so special. And then I finally, I had this meeting with these guys at Boulder light who are these two like young,

like 20 something dudes that were like talked too much and were kind of kind of annoyed me in my first meeting with them but I sent them the script anyway because I was like I got no other options here and they got it like they got it immediately and everything I loved they loved and they became really good partners for me and they sent it to Roy Lee and one day I'm in I'm in my underwear nine in the morning I'm playing Demon's Souls playing video underwear, nine in the morning, I'm playing Demon's Souls, playing video games in bed. Cause you know, that's what, that's what depressed people do in Los Angeles. And, uh, and my phone rings and it's this number I don't know. And I answer it. It's like, Hey Zach, it's Roy Lee. I'm like, okay. I don't, I don't know who that is. I'm like,

all right. He's like, I read your script. I think it's great. I'm like, which, which script? It's like barbarian. How much do you think it would cost? And like uh four four or five million dollars it's like yeah yeah that we can do that we can do that i'm like i'm sorry i don't know who you are it's like i'm roy lee i'm like i don't know who you i don't know what that means motherfucker have you seen it yeah well i said i don't know what that means he goes i made it i made the departed i made the lego movies i was like oh i'm like out of bed i'm like walking around on my phone. I'm like, Oh. And, but then I was like, Roy, I've been trying to get this into someone like your hands forever. But I got to tell you, you know, I, I just, I just, you know, gave this to the Boulder light guys. I'm, I'm kind of doing it with them. I was

like, I can't, can't bail. And he was like, no, they gave it to me. I want to make it with them. And I was just like, Oh, it was like one of those phone calls that you pray you get. And I got it and it changed everything. So then, so with Roy, we raised some international independent money. We got like three and a half million bucks through this company called Logical. And then literally on the day of my going away party to go to Bulgaria to shoot, and we'd already hired all the department's heads and stuff our financier died um just really sudden and and you look it's tragic for so many bigger reasons than my movie but it it was it was a especially bitter pill to swallow because my movie was was canceled on the eve of my big my big break and um you know that was a friday and on saturday roy um Roy called Michael Schaefer at New Regency. He was like, I need you to read the script this morning with your team. If you like it, you got to get on a Zoom with the director, you know, this afternoon. And if you like him, you got to give me an answer today. And Michael got on the Zoom and he upped my budget to four and a half million dollars and

sent us to Bulgaria and we were off and running. And it's just, this movie never should have ended up in a studio. It's so weird. It's a low budget horror movie, but like, I think Michael was doing Roy a favor and boom, like I had suddenly the ear of, of Fox and Disney. And then when I came back and finished it, we tested it, tested great, made some changes, tested it again. And they invited the marketing, the Disney marketing people to watch the test. And they were like, let's, let's try this. Let's see if this works. So here we are. here we are it's crazy man it's crazy i heard you tell a version of that story at the screening that i went to and it sounds fake it sounds like a story that you hear first-time directors tell where it's like my movie was canceled on the eve of my movie and like it's

remarkable how hollywood ending it is because i mean regardless of how the movie does right we're talking sure we don't know we don't know we don't know but your movie was the most fun i've had in how Hollywood ending it is because, I mean, regardless of how the movie does, right, we're talking before the movie even happens. We don't know. We don't know. But your movie was the most fun I've had in a movie theater this year. The people who saw it

had such a blast and it's such a creative and energetic and like sincere in a way horror movie. You know, it really feels like indebted to a lot of horror. It's like a,

it's a real horror movie and I don't mean that as an insult. No. I take it as a badge of honor. So it must be kind of a, it's a real horror movie. And I don't mean that as an insult. So I take it as a, as a badge of honor. So it must be kind of a mate. Like you must be kicking yourself, smacking yourself. I'm kicking myself.

I am. I'm beside myself. Um, I, I can't believe it. You know, I don't even know what to say, Sean. The fact that I'm talking to you right now, it feels like a dream come true. It's just, it's, it's been, it's been a really, really special chapter for me. And, um, and, and the best part is, is, you know, in addition to all of these wonderful things that are happening with the release and the reviews came in today, it's got like a 90, it had a 96. I think now it's down to a 93 cause I'm son of a bitch. Uh, but, uh, but it's,

it's great. But, but better than all of that is the fact that like, I got to make the movie that I watched in my head for the two years that it took me to get anybody to say yes you know every night i went to sleep and i watched this movie in my mind and um and when i watch the movie in the theater i see the same movie and that that is to me like i couldn't ask for a bigger success than that uh whether people pan it or love it it's fun not, I want people to love it, but I can sleep soundly at night because I was true to my vision. And what hurt the most about my experience back in 2008 was that I never was true to myself. And then when the movie was a failure, you kind of die twice because it's, you know, you compromise your creativity and everybody punish you for it.

And so this feels like a completely different experience. That's authentically heartwarming about one of the more depraved movies I've seen recently. Well, you know, I can also say, sorry, I'm talking a lot right now, but it was written with joy. You know, this was a joyful experience. It was a joyful time for me to write it. And I directed it on a set that I thought was a joyful place. And people, people weren't doing a

job, you know, people showed up and everybody was like turned on in a great way. And so I think that, I think that comes through. It does come through. Let's talk about it a little bit. So from the kind of story mechanics side, I have to ask you a couple of questions about how you're telling it, but let's go back to the filmmaking part. Because one of the things that I took away from it is that you really had moves as a director. The camera movement, the staging, the pacing, that stuff is really a lot harder, I think, than most people realize when they watch a horror movie. And they think like, oh, you just make a jump scare and that's all that you have to do. But I sensed a real intentionality. I sensed a real care that went into that. So when you said you saw the movie in your mind,

were you carefully storyboarding every moment as you wrote? What goes into the level of conception there? I had a lot of ideas of how I would frame every scene. And then I had the bonus of, you know, my DP is Zach Cooperstein and he's an amazingly talented guy. And so him and I would go to every location like weeks in advance and we would photo board every single shot together. So we would talk it through in the office, then we'd go to location and we would pick the lens and we would just photo board the whole scene. So when we showed up on set, I had already thought it through in a no pressure environment where I could be totally, take risks, talk it through. No one's sitting around tapping their watch. So I could, I could

be really specific. Now, if an actor comes to set with a big idea, you've got to be willing to like completely scrap your plans and pivot. And that's fine. That's, that's a good thing. But, um, but a lot of the movie was really stitched together before we ever walked on set. What do you, how do you basically get enticed an actor to make a movie like this because it's it's obviously the trailer is not necessarily indicative of where this movie is going and there's a lot of wrong footing that happens throughout the film and you i feel like you have the right three core people i think so so how did you get them involved and what do you explain to them about the movie that you want to make well you know with george uh who's who plays tess you know i got on a zoom with her and and

really honestly i just i praised the hell out of her i'd watched a lot of her stuff and i just i just gushed honestly about about how spectacular she was and i was like i i made this pitch i was like look if a horror movie is actually good and actually scary, it will be seen by everybody who cares. That's just the law of horror movies because most of them aren't that great. And I believe that we have one here that will be. And if you think so, because she liked the script, I was like, if you think this is going to be great, then you have to trust that this is going to work for us and that you're going to get a lot out of this. And I think it's a valuable risk for you to take.

And she agreed. Now, Bill actually doesn't like horror movies, believe it or not. He's not into them. That's so hard to believe because he is developing a reputation as one of the great figures. Like he's got like a Christopher Lee circa 1975 thing going where if he's in a movie,

you're like, this movie's gonna be fucking scary. And I don't know if he likes that or not. I couldn't tell you, but I think he he took this movie because a Roy produced it and Roy and him are friends and I think Roy helped and I think B you know he was reading it in bed next to his wife and his wife was like what's your script about he's kind of telling her and then as he was going she kept me like what's happening and he realized like she was like she was like super. And so she just kept every two pages like,

well now what's happening. And, and so that I think mattered. So thank you Bill's wife. And then Justin, look, I, I think that Justin is criminally underused. That guy is incapable of a false note. He is a tremendously gifted actor. He's so funny and he's the perfect, he plays a vile character in this movie. And I think that if I cast an actor who's known for playing vile characters, I would have missed a great opportunity because I think putting it through the vessel of a Tom Hanks

avatar, that's not the right word, but someone with these disarming, charming qualities, I think makes it much more insidious so um yeah he was he was such a gift do you think that your experience in a comedy troupe as a performer having been in the business in the way that you were in a forward-facing way for years helped you get people to do your movie as a director like what how did that contribute or did it not contribute at all i I don't think it got anyone on board. Um, cause why this kids is such a, it's such a small, pretty much unknown thing. You know, I think people that know about it really like it, but I don't think many people know about it. And so certainly none of my cast, I think Justin was aware of us, but I don't think he was like watching the show.

Um, but what about even in just like the presentational aspects you're a handsome guy you're clearly very intelligent you're great at talking into a microphone as we are right now like do you think that those tools helped you get into a position oh i'm certain i mean they they certainly must you have to sell yourself and so i do feel comfortable you know speaking um so i So I, I said, yeah, I suppose. Yes. I think it helps me the most directing and talking to actors because I've just been for 15 years, I've been up close and personal with directors communicating with actors and I've seen, I've seen them, you know, make what I think would be the wrong choice, the wrong way to talk.

And I've seen them say very surprisingly effective things. And so that I felt, I felt very equipped when, when I finally got the keys to the car to that, that was something I wasn't so worried about. What is the right way to talk? I'm always interested to hear filmmakers say that. So it's just, it's just keep it simple, stupid. It's like, I do a lot of this. Hey man, you came in and you were like angry at a seven, like come in and be angry at a five dude. Or like, Hey, speed this up. Like it's, this is too slow. So just try to speed it up. Okay. We have it. It's awesome. Like we're done now on this one, surprise yourself, like do something, make it dumb, like make it unusable, like go do stupid shit. Like that's what's fun. That's what people can get. What nobody wants is like cut. Okay, listen, your dad died when you were a kid.

So you got to think about that. Like that's the worst. And that just puts people in their head. People like concrete, like faster, slower, louder, quieter. That's all you got to do. Did someone teach you that? Did you pick that up from someone? I think I just picked it up.

I think that's, you know, actors talk. Actors talk major shit on directors directors and I'm guilty of this. I have eviscerated directors. Sometimes when I think behind their back and then I realized, oh, I'm lobbed up. This is, this is all going right into their ears. But you know, uh, I just know what people don't, don't like. So I've benefited from that. So I heard you talk about writing the movie itself and saying that you, when you were writing, it didn't know where it was going. And so one of the reasons why the movie is so surprising is because you were surprising yourself. That's true. But once you, tell me about once you got to the end of it, like, did you have to do a significant amount of revision once you

got to the end of your choose your own adventure story? Did it change a lot? You know, you mentioned test screenings, like tell me about what actually changed because i like that conception but making a movie is different from having a good time in your garage right for sure for sure so so the first draft didn't have the flashback to the 80s okay and it didn't have frank who we're in spoiler territory here we're in it didn't have the old man in the bed under the house that was never found he was just like we it was backstory that you had to kind of figure out for yourself why these tunnels existed so i my i had a producer attached who by the way bailed on me he ghosted me he gave me a note he's like add another dimension for this movie and i wrote the flashback and i wrote this stuff and then i emailed it to him and he never responded and i'm still kind of pissed

about it but he helped you though because that part of the movie is so effective. I agree. I agree. So he gave me a great gift and he made the movie better, but he also really undermined my confidence and hurt my feelings at a very delicate phase of this script.

And so, so yeah, that was a retrofit. But honestly, like the AJ sequence from like Malibu when we meet him to where he has his

confrontation with the mother, I probably wrote that in two or three days because that just kind of exploded out of me. And I never really changed it. Like that's what it was. But there are always going to be little structural tweaks you're going to do for pacing and stuff like that. That's so interesting about the flashback sequence. I would have said if you had had that, if you had had all of those component parts in your first draft, then you are a screenwriting genius because it does feel, it's a really like a Swiss watch now. Like it's really, really well organized. Oh, thank you. Thank you. Um, um, tell me about not a genius. It was,

that was, that was a little bit more of a, you know, and it's also like, I had notes from the Boulder light guys that really elevated things, you know? So, so I don't want to take all the credit in the world here. You know, it's, it's a, it's a collaborative thing. I have to ask you about the first turn, kind of the end of act one, which is thrilling and definitely the, like, you know, grab the person next to you moment of the movie. Is that, was that your kind of solution when you were banging your head against the wall? Pardon the pun. Yeah.

Cause, cause I was writing the movie that you think you're watching. So in my mind, as I'm typing, I'm like, so, you know, Keith is bad. He's, this is a trap. What's he going to do down there?

And I kept getting closer and closer to what I knew had to be the inevitable reveal. And I just, I got them under the house and I was like, okay, it's time for him to do whatever he's going to do. And I didn't have a good idea. And I just,

I had this realization that like the audience has seen this coming since the opening of the movie. So like, I I'm not fooling anybody. And I didn't have a good idea. And I had this realization that the audience has seen this coming since the opening of the movie. So I'm not fooling anybody. And I was just frustrated. And I was just like, and then a giant naked lady comes out and smashes him to pieces. And that was it. I was like, oh, I love that. But it's over.

I thought I'd written a 45-page short film that I was never going to shoot or show anybody. And I put it down. And then a couple of days later, I just couldn't stop thinking about it. And so I thought, what is the best way back into this? And I think it's to write the antithesis of the first act. You know, if the first act is about a woman being hypervigilant and she's a detective and her brain is working overtime to assess threat and to categorize behavior, then the opposite of that would be a man with no awareness whatsoever, a predator who is oblivious to the damage that he's doing. And so that felt like a negative of the first act. And it felt right to me. It's not arbitrary.

It's a perfect way in. And so these are two opposites that have to go through the same crucible. And it's a moral test that he fails and she passes. And so, so to me, it's a symmetrical, it's a symmetrical movie in that way. And then, and then the third break is,

is just fun. So when you arrived at the solution at the end of act one, and then that inspired what happens in act two, was the idea then, did you realize you wanted to basically subvert expectations on the film did you go in knowing you wanted to write a horror movie that would subvert expectations because no for example like the woman is the detective and in fact her instincts are are right are proven right in the first act and then she still is you know ultimately has struggle but right you didn't know that you

wanted to make something that was like this isn't where you think it's going no no i truly didn't you know so david david lynch has that great book i don't know if you wanted to make something that was like, this isn't where you think it's going. No, no, I truly didn't. You know, so David, David Lynch has that great book. I don't know if you've read his book, you know, catching the big fish and his, his technique that he, he advocates is to really get your brain out of it. You know, don't, when I think about results or effect, I'm not in the joy of creating. So I do meditate and I do try and like, just let my subconscious lead the way. And I don't know, like, you know, Stephen King says when he's writing, he's like an archaeologist, he's digging up dinosaur bones one by one. He doesn't know what the dinosaur is ultimately going to look like. And I just wanted to, you know, I've written other movies

that I'm very, very proud of that I have outlined thoroughly before I wrote. But in this one, I just wanted to just go blind and follow my own joy. So it's interesting that you say go blind because one of the interesting things about this movie, and I in fact am guilty of this on social media, is that a lot of people who have seen it are like going blind, don't know anything. That will be the best way to watch it. But that is a conundrum in our modern times in the way that we have to sell a movie and the way that we got to get people to show up to movie theaters. Like, what are your thoughts on that? How do you pitch the movie to your friends or people that know you were working on something, but they don't

totally understand it? You know, I had like the log line that I'd kind of settled on where when someone asked me what I was writing or working on, it was a woman checks into an Airbnb and it's double booked. And what we think is going on in the house or what we what's actually going on in the house is way worse than we think. Pretty good. And I think that the trailer kind of delivers on that. And that was great. Like, I didn't have to fight any any battles to get them to to protect the twist. That was one thing Disney was very, very, you know, enthusiastic about was let's protect this movie. And, you know, they were very solicitous of my of my input when we were putting a trailer together.

And I'd worked really hard on, you know, kind of crafting this trailer and, and it wasn't really coming together. And then we were nearing the 11th hour and Joe at Disney was like, here, just watch, watch this thing I've been tinkering with. And it was the trailer that exists. And I was like, dude, you saved us. Like, yes, that's it. I had no notes, you know? And so they put that out there. And I think that it's a delicate balance of enticing people without ruining. But I feel like this trailer shows you the tip of the iceberg. And it's not a bait and switch because it's true to the tone of the film. But what it can't give you is like

how surprising this movie is. And that's just a shame, but it is what it is. So here we are. like how surprising this movie is and that's that's just a shame but it is what it is so here we are if the film is not a massive hit is that actually better explain yourself this is a very fun movie to recommend and i have spent and i'm sure as you know as somebody who is familiar with the ringer there we have some hardcore horror fans here and i have very excitedly encouraged Chris Ryan,

Bill Simmons, a number of other people to go see this movie. You don't know how badly I want CR and Bill to watch this movie. They definitely will. They wouldn't miss

something like this. But it does have the quality of, and I would never wish you non-success, but if it's not a hit, it's going to be the greatest cult discovery, celebrated, re-watched movie because it's not a hit it's going to be the greatest like cult discovery celebrated re-watched movie because it is so surprising and you don't know what to expect and also we find

ourselves obviously in this fraught time with movie going and who the hell knows what's going to happen to anybody's movie and it's very rarely an indictment on anybody the quality of anybody's film at this point yeah so i don't know if you've considered that like you are you know you were part of white as kids and that did have like a kind of cult quality fan base too i i'm sure you would rather the film make 300 million dollars on opening weekend but sure is there anything appealing about making like an instinct cult classic yeah yeah that's that's massively appealing i i would i would take that i wouldn't say no um Um, I, you know, also I, I have seen people with achieve tremendous success and I've seen that that can have, that can have a lot of, of, um, adverse effects. It

adds tremendous pressure. I don't know if I would be able to write in my garage with the same joy that I wrote barbarian. If barbarian makes $200 million, it's never going to make that, but like a barbarian made like a hundred million million. And it was like, people were clamoring for what's next, what's next. How could I, how could I realistically, you know, throw caution to the wind? I'm a sober dude. I can't like get high and just like follow my, my, my impulses. I, I don't have that luxury. I have to just, just, you know, try. And so I didn't have that pressure when I was writing Barbarian. So did you not do the thing where you wrote the next thing before the first thing comes out? I've been trying, man. I'm writing two things simultaneously right now. One is a horror movie

and it is so much weirder than Barbarian. And I don't know if I'll be able to land the plane. Yeah, it's cuckoo. And then I'm writing a thriller that's super fun, but it's also super weird. It's like more of a nightcrawler kind of a vibe, which I love. And before I wrote Barbarian, I wrote a Batman movie. That's my favorite thing I've ever written in my life. It's not about Batman. It's about a guy who lives in Gotham City. And I tell you, it's better than Barbarian,

but they're never going to give me the keys to that car. So I got to wait in line. And maybe in seven years, I'll be able to. It's not going to happen anytime soon, but that I want to make so bad. And I don't even like superhero movies i i generally can't stand them but but this is different well i mean roy lee knows some people at warner brothers roy does and roy roy's on he likes that script he's he's down so we'll see what happens that would be fun i wish we lived in a world where things like that could happen more frequently i do too do you so

is it officially like a a transition you've made here where like horror thriller, that is kind of the mode you want to work in most frequently? I, I, I am a true genre fan, so I would be happy to, um, you know, there's a, there's a couple other scripts that I'm, that I haven't even written that I'm, I'm seriously considering directing that are, uh, one's a sci-fi comedy and one's a comedy comedy um i wouldn't say no to it uh it just depends on look it's hard for me to think about the next thing because you know how it is even if you're wildly successful it's hard to get a movie made yeah so it just kind of depends on how the how luck pans out on these things are you done acting i don't know not not not decidedly but i i do feel like this is much more appealing to me.

What is something you couldn't do on barbarian that you want to do on something in the future? What a great question. I don't have an answer at the tip of my tongue. Um, I don't, I don't gravitate towards big budget action sequences. I don't, I tend to be, I check out when I watch a lot of these giant $200 million movies, I'm bored by the action. So I certainly not clamoring to, to do some mega superhero ensemble kind of a thing. I, I, I am drawn to like tension, you know, notes on a scandal. I want to, you know, I, I thought that, uh, the first two acts of speak no evil. I don't know if you saw that. I was like, the first two acts of this movie is like the greatest thing I've ever seen. I know. The one thing I didn't want was resolution. I was, I was, I don't want to trash another film on this podcast, but let me just say, I just, I thought the first two acts were sublime. And if I could do something that's that powerful next, I'd be thrilled. It's so interesting that you say that because that is the film that is basically in competition with you for best horror movie of September.

Cause that's when most people will see that movie. But, um, I thought you landed the plane tonally and, uh, thank you. Uh, I really enjoyed it.

Thank you. You know, I end every episode of this show by asking filmmakers, what's the last great thing that they've seen? Well, I too. So I always want to pump up St. Maude cause I just think it's a slept on masterpiece.

And I think Rose glass is just like a genius. And I people, it blows my mind that we're not all talking about St. Maude all the time. It's just, it's just so great. I think it's a real victim of the pandemic, I think. I know. It's a, it's, she got, she got short, short change. It's one of the last movies I saw before we went into lockdown, actually. Like in a screening.

Yeah, it's a very good one. It's so good. And's a very good one. It's so good. And then it took me forever, but Cure, the Japanese movie. I just watched that last week and I was like, where's this been all my life? This is great. Kiyoshi Kurosawa. Yeah. It's so good. Those are great recommendations. That was awesome.

Zach, this was fun, man. Thank you. John, please. I hope we do this again. I can't wait to see your next movie. Congrats on Barbarian. It kicksian it kicks ass thanks man this was a joy thanks to zach thanks to chris thanks to amanda for enduring a conversation about this truly twisted movie tune in later this week to the big Picture where we'll be having another movie draft. Amanda, are you excited about this draft?

I am. We're about to do it, actually. We're about to record it. It's the 1980s comedy draft. I think it might get unexpectedly heated in person. Oh, okay.

Well, we shall see. Thanks to Bobby Wagner for his work on today's episode as well. See you later this week.