The Big Picture - ‘Barbie’ + ‘Oppenheimer,’ a.k.a. Barbenheimer, Is Upon Us!

Episode Date: July 21, 2023

The biggest movie weekend in years is finally here. Sean and Amanda discuss the theater-going experience surrounding Greta Gerwig’s ‘Barbie’ and Christopher Nolan’s ‘Oppenheimer’ (1:00), including the order and circumstances in which you should see them. Then, they dig into their feelings on ‘Oppenheimer’ and where Nolan stands in Hollywood (17:00), before pivoting their focus to ‘Barbie’ and what it signals about Gerwig’s ambitions and desires as a filmmaker (52:00). This episode makes an effort to be spoiler-free of plot points in both ‘Barbie’ and ‘Oppenheimer,’ but does feature in-depth discussion of Sean and Amanda’s reactions and feelings about each movie. Hosts: Sean Fennessey and Amanda Dobbins Senior Producer: Bobby Wagner Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Visit Superstore.ca to get started. I'm Sean Fennessey. I'm Amanda Dobbins. And this is The Big Picture, a conversation show about... Barbenheimer. The day has arrived. The biggest movie release date in years is finally here, Amanda. Greta Gerwig's Barbie

and Christopher Nolan's Oppenheimer, two of the most eagerly anticipated movies in years, they're open today. On this episode, you and I will share our initial reactions to the films, the best way to experience them, our expectations for the movies as they get out into the world. We're going to try to do so without spoiling very much at all for the listener. Because next week, we will have two more episodes, one entirely devoted to Oppenheimer with Chris Ryan, and one entirely devoted to Barbie with Joanna Robinson. So this will be the listener's guide to the Barbenheimer experience and a recitation of our feelings about these movies.

Are you ready? How do you feel? I feel great. I want to add two things to what you just said, which is, number one, this is going to be as spoiler-free as we possibly can. And we have even empowered

our beloved Bobby Wagner, who has not seen either of these films yet, to cut us off mid-conversation if he feels we're going down a road that will diminish. Whoa, whoa, stop. Whoa, stop. Whoa, whoa, spoiling.

Stop. Please stop. I like to be the human shield for all of our listeners. Right. Right. All that said, this is a podcast and we're going to have to talk about the movies. So if you have been looking forward to this as much as we have, if you don't want to know something, if you are nervous that something could slip out, if you don't even want like an expectation setting, wait till you've seen the movies.

Seriously, I don't want to ruin it for anyone. We've had the most fun. I've been waiting for this day, like I guess for a year. Long time. You and I both like planned our summers around this stretch of movies. We literally did. And I'm very excited. But I don't want to ruin it for anyone else.

So we're going to try our best in good faith. But if you're nervous, turn it off and come back. My second point is, I just want to let everyone know that Sean and I, for scheduling reasons, did not see these movies together. And we have not shared any opinions with the other person so i i have no idea what sean thinks or where he's going i've spent a lot of time trying to guess

i was wondering if you cared i know i do um in certain ways i would say that my wondering uh and my speculation has had a fear-based element to it, you know, because I'm trying to... I think some of the listeners may agree with you. Sure. I'm just trying to prepare myself. I think there are fun conversations to have, and there are some where I could be annoyed with you.

But I don't really know which way it's going to go. Part of the fun of this episode, I think, and the reason to listen to it, even if you haven't seen the films, is how to watch these. Part of the fun of this episode, I think, and the reason to listen to it, even if you haven't seen the films, is how to watch these movies is a big part of this. Now, obviously, we saw advanced screenings of the films. We did not see them in the way that I think many people are hoping to see them. I saw a report of over 200,000 people

have booked a same-day Barbenheimer double bill, which is highly unusual and probably record-breaking, but I'm not sure if there's any way to track that. But the ways in which we saw it and how we saw it informing how we think other people should see it, we have evidence now to evaluate and to share with the audience. So why don't we start with that? Which of these two movies did you see first?

I saw Barbie first because that was what was available to me. Okay. And now neither of us saw either of these movies on the same day. We saw them on individual days. Yeah. So you saw Barbie first. And did you see it in the screening room? Did you see it in a movie theater?

Where did you see it? I saw it in a Dolby screening room. Bobby allows that product placement. It's not product placement, but that is... It's a brand shout out. One of many. Product appreciation. Yeah, product appreciation.

So I saw it in the front row of the Dolby screening room at 10 a.m. on a Monday. Okay. After, I have to say, one of the most joyful but longest weekends of my life. Okay. Because my husband was traveling and it was me and my toddler son solo. So it was a respite. It was water in the desert it was a moment of your first moments of freedom after a long weekend was barbie correct and then you saw oppenheimer how the next day in a very fancy movie theater but in a in a movie theater uh

with i guess other press it was also an advanced screening. But it was like press and guest. So it was fairly loose in that room in the early evening. Well, not, I guess, in the evening at 6 p.m. You attended Barbie alone. Did you bring a guest to Oppenheimer? No, I didn't because you and Chris forsook me. Okay. And Bobby is back in New York. I had a very similar circumstance. I saw Barbie at 11 a.m. on a Friday morning, and I think the very same Dolby screening room that you did. And I saw Oppenheimer the following Monday at a 5 p.m. screening at the Universal CityWalk Theater. That's where I saw it. It's one of the very few theaters in America where you can see 70mm IMAX, which is the, I think, ultimate intended format for Christopher Nolan's Oppenheimer. But first you have to walk through the most bonkers outdoors food court that I've seen in recent memory. And I will share with you how I experienced it.

It's the only theater in the world where you can see 70mm and then go eat at Margaritaville. Which is in fact exactly what we did. You guys actually did go to Margaritaville without me? Well, I mean, you weren't there with us that night. It's not like we ditched you to go to Margaritaville while you floundered in the lobby. That makes me really mad. We just had Modellos. I mean, I can tell you about that a little bit as well. I'm not sure if the listeners are most anticipating my review of the Modello service at Margaritaville. Go ahead. I wanted to go to Margaritaville. Who loves a large margarita and some Jimmy Buffett

more than Amanda Dobbins? I couldn't say, but I promise you in the future we will go. You know, I've been to, I've told my Parrothead stories before, right? I'm not sure this is really the pod for that. What do you think?

Do you think this is the Parrothead segment of the podcast? Maybe it is. I was raised a Parrothead, mild Parrothead, by my Aunt Betty. It's really funny that you say that. You have mentioned that to me before, probably privately, and I don't think the listeners of this show know that there's any Parrothead mythology in your lifestyle.

My father is a late-breaking Parrothead. Awesome. Like in his 60s. Do you think your dad's listening to this right now? Could be. Okay. Could be. Well, tell him.

If he's listening, I love your dad. I'm in LA. Sir, let's go to Margaritaville together. Sean may be invited, maybe not. It's a date. Okay. I'm happy to sit that one out. My experience at Margaritaville was nice.

Seeing the film in IMAX 70mm, I thought was special. And there are only 30 of those theaters that service that format in the entire United States of America. There are maybe about 150 more that service 70 millimeter, and then the rest will be your standard laser DCP. So you saw 70 millimeter.

Interesting. Okay. Because that's what you told me that you were booking. Remember? Yes. Remember? And then everyone changed the plan on poor Amanda, who arranged her entire life. And then I only saw 70 millimeter, and I didn't get to go to Margaritaville.

But that's okay because we're here now. We are here now. Did you have any snacks while you watched the films? I had a Coke Zero without any ice because the ice machine was broken and that was a mistake. At Oppenheimer? Yeah. And nothing at Barbie? No.

I mean, the Dolby is more of a screening room. Okay. It was early. Do you think that viewers of those films should get snacks? Sure. Anything different than usual beyond your standard popcorn, Coke? Well, it depends on kind of what the outside structure of your viewing experience is. And also, obviously, whether you're doing a doubleheader or whether you are, you know, seeing one Friday, one Saturday, or one Saturday, one Sunday,

if you're doing a doubleheader, that's five hours of cinema. Not to mention previews. Right. So you obviously need to pace yourself. You want to get some protein in there, I would think, just to sustain you. Well, this is what I really want to ask you before we start talking about the films. And I'm sure listeners at home are thinking, well, what did you guys think of the movies? Just wait one minute for Christ's sake. Should people see this as a back-to-back doubleheader of films?

Or should they take a break? Should they take an entire day? Should they go have a meal and return to the theater? What is your advice? That's what I like. So here is what I would do. Had I the freedom to do this. Is Oppenheimer maybe as early as noon, but noon to 2, 3 p.m. showing.

And it's your afternoon event. It's probably pretty hot outside. But also, hopefully, you had a restful evening. You're awake. You're ready. It is three hours. It is an adaptation of a 700-page Pulitzer Prize-winning history. So, you know, you're going to want to pay attention.

Then straight up leave the theater. Go have a fun dinner. Where would you recommend dinner? I mean, Margaritaville sounds great, honestly. Any place with chips and guacamole and margaritas. I think probably two is the limit margarita-wise, or else if you're like me, you're going to fall asleep. And if it's a Margaritaville-sized goblet, maybe stick to the one. I had the good fortune of going to Margaritaville with my dear friends Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald, hosts of The Watch right two of my oldest friends and we lapped it up yeah do you recommend multiple friends do you recommend just seeing one or both of these films with their partners what like what's it what's a what's the right viewing engagement you want to go with people who are also excited okay I saw it by myself

and then I at this point Sean and I had made the pact of saving it for the podcast. So I like didn't text you. And then I didn't text Chris because I didn't want Chris to inadvertently spoil your reaction. But I was like, and I got home at like 930 and my husband was asleep. And so I was like, I have no one to talk to this about. And I was just like fizzing, you know, which is maybe a movie problem and maybe an Amanda problem, and that's fine. But so see it with one, two, three, four. If you're doing this double header, a close group of people who care, people who are also excited to talk about it.

Okay. Do you think that's true for both films? More essential for Barbie than for Oppenheimer? No, I was going to say more essential for Oppenheimer than Barbie. Intriguing. Yeah. Oppenheimer, of course, a film about a kind of alienation and existentialism. And I guess, frankly, so is Barbie in many ways. Yeah, there's a lot there. I mean, that is an interesting thing.

They have quite a bit in common. They really do. So then you have a festive meal. And then you go back for barbie i think at that point if you want to open it up to people who are like i only got time for one movie or i'm here more for like a friday night saturday night party vibe that's also your uh for barbie you can do that is there is there any part of you that thinks a meal in the theater is the move for either film? No, I don't really like that. That's just a personal preference. That's just a personal thing. Number one, I just don't really feel that the foodstuffs are up to my standards. I see.

Not like Margaritaville, the legendary cuisine of Margaritaville. You know what? Here's the thing about Margaritaville and other chain restaurants is they do what they do very well yeah i think the show the bear was based on margarita actually oh i finished season one of the bear last night season one i listen season two is the most is the purest expression of my soul i've seen in a long time yeah okay i started season two okay and i really like it and I am watching it on my own time without all of your bullshit and Zach's bullshit

and everyone else's bullshit what is my bullshit well listen my sincerity my honest appreciation sure without your sincerity Jesus Christ

um and I'm having a great time and I just wanted you to know I'm glad you liked it also please don't slant a margaritaville anyway I also feel stay on track this is an

important episode don't blow it you put all the filler up front i don't know eating in the movies is such a distraction like this you know and i'm i i have to recommend uh otherwise i think just load up i think just get a get a pretzel sure oh yeah for sure. Oh, yeah. Get a lot of candy. I was jittery during Oppenheimer for a variety of reasons. Including the fact that you don't eat and prepare properly. I had dinner before I went to Oppenheimer. Yeah, I didn't eat any meals that day. That is a separate podcast and something that I have spoken with you about on numerous occasions. I had probably the worst headache of the last five years,

the day after Oppenheimer. Yeah. Which has a little to do with Oppenheimer and a lot to do with the fact that I just pounded three beers at Margaritaville and then went home and went to bed. And you guys didn't even get like guacamole or anything?

Chris got chips. More of my favorite chips. Okay. Just putting that out there. Listen, snacks, yes. But you know, sometimes like people are trying to do like a, you know, bacon cheeseburger or whatever in the middle. I don't fully recommend that.

Every once in a while, though, a hot dog or some queso or something like that. I'm not against it. Okay, but you're doing more like traditional. I'm thinking of like the premium movie theater experiences where they've got like the full menu or whatever. Well, you know, sometimes I want foie gras, you know. Sometimes I want bone marrow in the middle of my film. Do you eat foie gras? I certainly have. Okay. I just didn't know where it fits on Sean's weird food list. you know sometimes i want bone marrow in the middle of my film do you eat foie gras i certainly

have okay i just didn't know where it fits on sean's weird food list once upon a time i was a quite an enthusiast of food culture and as i've gotten older and weaker and that's why the bear spoke to you on like a really deep level no that's not why it's because i'm from a extremely loud ethnic family of middle-class strivers who are desperate to be understood. And that show really represents that culture very well. I do think people need to sufficiently fuel up for these experiences. Don't go to a movie hungry is something I learned a lot in my 20s because I would go to a screening straight from work and then just thinking about when I'm going to eat through some of the great works of modern cinema. Okay, one other question. Do you think you should have a

beer or cocktails through either of these films? It really depends on your ability to drink and not have to go to the bathroom every 20 minutes. So for me, at some point, you know, by the second cocktail, I'm also trying to hydrate while I drink, you know, so that I can get up the next day and live my life. So that's a pretty frequent bathroom. So I have to pace it out from a bladder perspective. And I don't think you want to be going to the bathroom four times during either of these films. Completely agree. This concludes the introduction to how to experience Barbenheimer portion of these films. Completely agree. This concludes the introduction to how to experience

Barbenheimer portion of this podcast. Now, one thing that we have not decided that I would like to leave up to you ultimately is which movie do we talk about first? Do we talk about Oppenheimer or do we talk about Barbie? Because you would recommend Oppenheimer first and Barbie second,

which I still fully agree with. Yes. I don't know. Yeah, you have Oppenheimer in here first. That which I still fully agree with. Yes. I don't know. Yeah, you have Oppenheimer in here first. That was just, I just wrote it down. It wasn't even like I feel that this should come first. I just wrote them both down right behind each other. All right.

What do you want to start with? No, I have asked you. I feel it's important that you make this decision. And I want to read into what that decision means for the audience. Let's start with Oppenheimer. Let's go in the order that we've programmed. Okay. This podcast playing out like a weird thing of game theory somehow is very interesting

to me, just as an observer. Well, the reason I'm interested in this is obviously Greta Gerwig. We both love Greta Gerwig. She's been a guest of this show a couple of times, someone that we've both followed for a very long time. We are about the same age as Greta Gerwig. I think we're very invested in her creatively. And Chris Nolan, of course, for me, is like a controversial figure because of the opinions I've shared about his films.

And also the opinions that his fans have shared back. Yes, he has very passionate, sometimes angry fans. And so these two movies are perfect for what we do almost to the point of absurdity this episode and this this being really like the culmination of a movie culture that has felt really kind of been taken through the ringer over the last five years um specifically through the pandemic and it's been very exciting to see the culture actually finally surround a couple of movies. Yeah. And so I will, I accept your suggestion of Oppenheimer first.

Okay. Oppenheimer, of course, as Amanda indicated, is an adaptation of the 2005 Pulitzer Prize winning biography, American Prometheus, which is written by Kai Bird and Martin J. Sherwin. Screenplay was written by Chris Nolan. It's directed by Chris Nolan. I believe this is his 11th feature film. It's a subjective portrait of a person in a critical stage of American history. Of course, J. Robert Oppenheimer, the theoretical physicist who was instrumental in developing the atom bomb during the Manhattan Project during World War II, and who then went on to a complicated life operating inside and outside the American government

and, I guess, academia, for lack of a better word. So, what'd you think of Oppenheimer? Oh, I have to start? I'll start if you like. Bobby, who should go first? I think you should go first, Amanda. Here's where I will start and I'm sorry if this is a spoiler Bobby

I too enjoy the work of Aaron Sorkin there we go well then what does that explain what that means sure this is a very talky movie this is to me talky movie. This is, to me, there are large stretches of this film where Chris Nolan is doing his version of the walk and talk. Mm-hmm. and also what it means to be a leader, a thinker, a great American, a person of history.

Honestly, the best double feature that I can think of for this movie is being the Ricardos. I couldn't, I was kind of stunned by it at times in the way that it is so talky. And so what it's trying to do in its editing in terms of pacing and character development and what it's trying to land and then how it actually lands the plane structurally. It's just, it's a fascinating screenplay. You believe it does land the plane? No, I don't at all. But that's,

that's just for me. Okay. Um, this is by far my favorite Christopher Nolan movie. I knew you loved it, you fucking idiot! This is, uh,

if this is, if this is me eating crow, I will happily eat a big old plate of crow with foie gras. Because I'm sure listeners of the show, listeners of The Rottables know that JFK is one of my favorite movies of all time. Yeah. No one has gone out of his way to cite JFK. Even when he cited it, I was like, I don't know, can you really do JFK? And this is as close as he can to do a movie like jfk in fact

like he is pulling specific strategies out of that movie shifting color stock shifting aspect ratio the editing style which i thought was absolutely brilliant i i i thought it was the first time i felt an authentic justification for his fascination with time shifting in a story plot. And I don't, again, these are not spoilers. This is a kind of a three-phased story in the way that it plays out across history. And particularly through the first two hours, I was mesmerized. That's the key thing. I should have. Yeah, I should have known when Paul Schrader endorsed this film as the most important film of the of the 21st century. I do believe that came out almost immediately after I walked out of my screening. I mean, the film ended and and

Chris walked over to me and we were both just like, wow, you know, like know like wow like this is this is in many ways what we want yeah um i it is a film not without flaw i think uh i'm happy to talk about some of those flaws we will definitely get into some of those flaws uh next week i've obviously been on the uptick with nolan i feel like this movie and tenant together are like the the sort of like physical separations of the two things that were powering, I think the movies that people most love from him, that were powering The Dark Knight and Interstellar and Inception,

which are these sort of fusions of high, a brilliant action and a kind of like theoretical story making. And so it's as if he has split his own atom to make a movie here that pairs with Tenet in an interesting way. Now, I loved Tenet.

I thought it was so exciting to watch him say, like, forget about figuring out if it makes sense or not. And this movie is the exact opposite. This movie is like, how do you really feel about the biggest moral quagmire

in American history? Now, I get that you maybe didn't come aboard it. No, I'm thinking through it. So my honest thing is that this movie is obviously an it no I'm thinking through it so my honest thing is that this movie is obviously an achievement I need to see it again

I am going to see it for a second time this weekend and there are a lot of fascinating sometimes really effective decisions

and there are also things that didn't quite work for me which we can talk about in greater length next week I am kind of juggling that responsible instinct So things that didn't quite work for me, which we can talk about in greater length next week. I am kind of juggling that responsible instinct with the urge to just fucking clown you into infinity for this being your favorite Chris Nolan film.

That is the funniest, most you, and like also most embarrassing thing ever. Is it embarrassing? Yeah, no. I think many people feel like this is his best work. I know. And there are all people who are like, yes, it's really important to be a genius. But what you have to remember is it's not your fault that the world can't accept you. Yeah, all right.

No shit. It is very clearly a stripe of autobiography in this movie. There's no doubt about it. And the movie does commit what I have identified as Nolan's sins in the past. There are a few tropes in this movie that are unmistakable that he just can't get out of his own way with that is kind of fascinating. Some that are like actually quite galling. Yes. But so that thing, I think they're, for me, they're galling in part because of part of what makes this film so great, which is that

this is a fact-based conspiracy thriller. This is about something that actually happened and has grounding in our world. And in fact, Kai Bird, one of the co-authors of the book, said that he believes this is the most accurate adaptation of a true story in Hollywood history. Now, he's biased. He wrote that book. But he was on the set.

He read the script. I have some follow-up questions for Kai Bird about one character in particular. But we'll get to it. Obviously, also, J. Robert Oppenheimer has been featured in films before, you know, both The Real Man and as a character in films before. Probably most famously in Fat Man and Little Boy. And he is someone who sort of like looms large but has no face, I think, in our culture. And so the film has put a face perhaps

the face to him and killian murphy and it's a movie this is a movie of performances and i i i live for movies of performances i live for movies of men talking in rooms and lord knows there are so many men talking in so many rooms in this film it it is a fun oh look there's that person and oh look who showed up and if you can do yourself the favor of not googling anymore of who's in it before you go see it it that that is a delightful i found myself surprised yeah there were i certainly was i have i did not go out of my way to look too far into this movie or barbie so there are a series of surprises in both films um i i am interested in what held you back from liking it.

I can speak more about what I really liked about it because there are quite a few things. And I think we're underselling it by only identifying it as a talkie drama because it does have a few things that distinguish it from, say, that other Oppenheimer movie I just mentioned. You know what I mean? Or being the Ricardos, which was like a flip.

That's a very funny joke, but that's a very insulting joke to Oppenheimer. Right. And it's also not totally incorrect but anyway but no it is you know shot on 70 millimeter imax and like beautiful and some of the rooms are you know like in new mexico uh and they go outside and it like and it looks and it also has... I mean, you guys know what the movie's about, right? We're not going to spoil how they pull it off. I mean, everyone knows about the incidents and the immediate aftermath of the development of the atom bomb.

But, you know, there are probably some things we don't want to say about what is not portrayed in the film and what is portrayed in the film. The film does have an unusual structure and there's quite a bit of cross-cutting. You've got a lot of timelines running simultaneously and cutting together and building towards, you know, one climactic moment. Yes. Then I won't say any more, spoiler-wise.

So, it seems like maybe that you didn't feel that it was cinched together effectively. Well, I don't... Bobby, you can cut this out if it's spoiler. I was incredibly bored during the third hour. Incredibly bored. And that has a little bit to do, I think, with the way that it cuts everything together and it loses momentum. Both, I think, with the way that it cuts everything together and it loses momentum. Both, I think, in the... We effectively lose a strain of the story in the third hour.

Sure. And also what the other strands are picking up. To me, I start to really feel the hand pressing down on the side of the scale where you're supposed to be. Yes. Which, you know, all films should have a viewpoint, and this one has one. And I don't even know if I disagree with the film's ultimate viewpoint. I think the other thing that I felt was that it was an amazing Killian Murphy performance, and also that this is ultimately a deep character study without a character and there was something about his incarnation that was both riveting and how the movie is telling the story didn't ultimately deliver to me what i think other

people took from it the phrase i thought of while watching it was that it is a portal and not a portrait and that Oppenheimer is being used as a vehicle to think about these big ideas of infamy, justice pride of creation, destruction responsibility there are a lot of huge

literally the most as Matt Damon's character Colonel Grove says in the film the most important fucking thing in the world um and i think that you're right i think that there is an intensity that killian murphy holds throughout this entire film that is a lot harder than it looks and no he's fantastic like and just like a complete star holds your attention and I think communicates the specialness. You know, what the movie wants him to communicate about Oppenheimer as a singular figure. Yeah. There's like a solemn charisma to him, too, that I think a leader like that really needs.

And that is ultimately what he is ultimately portrayed as. And then something else in the second half of his life. To me, again, it is very similar to Oliver Stone's JFK because that movie has a very similar structural issue where it is this breakneck, two-hour abundance of cross-cut mind mania.

You know, someone with all the ideas in the world who's using the tools of his trade to bombard you with feeling, idea, and history. And sometimes he's alighting certain truths, sometimes he's bending certain truths, but he is making his case

in such a propulsive way. And the films are shot, both films are shot so beautifully and so interestingly that you are kind of locked in. And then the third hour is a very procedural and very trial-like.

And that is also true when you get to the end of the Donald Sutherland sequence in JFK, which is to me like, as a teenager watching that, I was like, oh my God, I am alive. And this movie has a very similar sequence at about the second hour where you were like, that is the power of Christopher Nolan's filmmaking. That is the thing that no one else alive can do, that he can do, that is different from men just talking in rooms. And when that ends,

and when we go to the final phase of the story, and it becomes a far more procedural story, I think many people are saying, this is kind of drab, it's a little bit obvious where the story is headed,

and it has a kind of like, drumroll please, the truth is blank. Like, you know, there's a kind of like faux revelation near the end of the film that feels like it needs to kind of put a button on the point that he's trying to make nevertheless i sure do love a procedural courtroom thriller and so there are parts that really clicked with me yeah and i mean there are moments even within that third hour where i was like okay let's wrap it up where i was very entertained and and riveted and in one case like relieved because one actor like finally gets at least one moment um but it's it's hard to do a courtroom drama very well it's

hard to do a procedural well as as you guys are talking about on the rewatchables all month. And as we talk about all of the time, you know, like I, again, was being kind of cheeky about Aaron Sorkin, but also like, I do love the work of Aaron Sorkin and it's really hard and manipulative what he does, but it's very precise. And so I feel that in the third hour, the movie shifts focus. Well, it shifts tonally, it shifts pace wise, it shifts focus it well it shifts tonally it shifts pace wise it shifts uh focus in terms of where it is and timelines and also who's front and center in those timelines and i think that there's a lot more telling rather than showing i agree with you and and i think it's like the first time that i really felt the the two first two hours are just move and are so exhilarating and even the decisions that nolan is making that are different than what he normally

does or or are like pulling his nolanness into a new framework or like oh this is really like huh like i'm excited about this and then in the third hour it's just kind of like oh this is like something slightly different but you know I think it's because of the extraction of that one timeline that because the time has passed sure we lose what feels like the the adventure of the movie the sort of like the oceans 11 frankly of like getting the team together and working towards the goals and when you remove that i think that removes that propulsiveness in some ways and the audience gets a chance to kind of stop stop a little bit and think about what this has been and what it is and the movie the first

two hours do not allow you to do that the first two hours are cutting so relentlessly between the three timelines and then this fourth that is introduced just like the pace of the cuts are like almost disorienting how fast they are, which is like clearly intentional. I was like, wow. That to me is an extraordinary achievement though.

Yeah. Like for mainstream Hollywood filmmaking to be edited this way, I think is so exciting. And I couldn't believe that he was doing it in a way that like

it goes way beyond the like inception. Like, oh my God, they like turn the buildings on top of each other. It's not like that. It was like, it was mesmerizing and you know you really had to and it forces you the viewer to just like keep up yes you know but and you do also like miss a couple things which i also think is the point and beneficial to the movie you're not trying to

like someone made a joke of like wow what a science corner is coming from amanda dobbins and i gotta be honest guys like i am not going to be able to explain fusion or fission or the a-bomb or chris will though or notes yeah based based on formulas exactly hand i don't personally have the knowledge i have not read american prometometheus. And while I really did enjoy the first two hours of this movie, I didn't come home with my own Nobel Prize in physics. Not that Oppenheimer never won, right? I don't believe so. But many of the scientists who were featured in the film did win. And there is a very notable joke about the history of Alfred Nobel.

Yeah, which I shared with you many times in Sweden. And you were like, I know I've been here before before i've been to the nobel museum in fact um i think that it's funny that i am not only higher but maybe much higher on the movie than you although it kind of makes sense when you i mean it makes sense it's so funny because i like i was talking myself like this is one of my favorite movies the last five years like it is it is one of i i don't i don't it's kind of hard to give this a five stars because it's got real flaws. I think some of what's happening right now is me reacting to your reaction as opposed to the movie itself. Right, okay. Which, like, friends.

I know your desperation to dunk on me. Friends, that's why you come to the podcast. But I was really thinking about it. I'll be honest, when I, I had some time in the third hour to the podcast. But I was really thinking about it. I'll be honest, when I had some time in the third hour of the movie, so I was thinking, I wonder what Chris and Sean thought about this.

Where is Sean going to go? Because the first two hours, I was just really sitting there and wonder. Even if not everything lands. It's pretty undeniable. And the whole film is undeniable. I'm not trying to deny it.

But I think that i thought that it wasn't going to work for you interesting so i'm a little surprised right now and i'm reacting to that and i think also it's just your your podcast character you know this is not a zag though. No, I know, but it's like hard not to hear it as a zag. And I'm just like, oh, this is, it's perfect. I'm glad you liked it. I don't know if I have enough self-reflection to understand whether or not I'm trying to like have a moment here.

Like I just really loved it. Let me just say something. It would be total bullshit if the two of us came on this podcast and we're like, eh, to Oppenheimer. I agree. And because that's not how either of us felt. And also like, come on, like it's like a real thing.

My reaction was a little, huh, I'm not sure this is what I expected. My, but so like, this is relevant. I think if you think I'm just the guy who hates Inception. Yeah. Because the other two ends of his career, I think are quite interesting. And I think where I started to turn on him is when I think he got a little bit too, um, invested in his own, uh, portrayal of like the American family slash like men and women. And then his bigger ideas about like story structure.

Those two things always I struggled with, but I'm on the record as like seeing Memento for the first time and just being completely wowed. Yes. And this had a kind of similar effect on me where it's obviously not the same sort of thing, but there is a kind of cross-cutting and a kind of confusion that I find exciting in the way that this story is told. And he just, he has a knack for this. And, you know, I've obviously, I liked Dunkirk when it came out, but i've come around on it a lot more and that movie is in relationship with this movie that we haven't said dunkirk um before because i think you rightly pointed out that tenet and oppenheimer are kind of like two halves of the nolan skill set and i still kind of think dunkirk is like

the perfect fusion of those two skill sets and so part part of my reaction is like, okay, so you had it all together. And now we're just, I mean, he's very successful and can do whatever he wants. But it is interesting for him to be like, okay, now I'm going to try only doing half. And then what about the other half? And it's... I think that's very fair. It's interesting for the fractions to go after the whole piece. And I thought a lot about Dunkirk while watching this film

because, you know, I mean, the parallels are like extremely obvious, but even in the cross-cutting of the structure and the sense of what should a person do in an extreme circumstance

and things moving or not moving, you know? It's charting an interesting path for him where he is now sort of toggling between these sort of fact-based stories and these wild, harebrained sci-fi action films that he is interested in making. I think there's something in the film...

Which, honestly, why not? It's awesome. It's awesome. It's great. I mean, set aside whatever you think i think about christopher nolan yeah totally like why not what he's doing is amazing i mean he's like i'm shooting movies on film releasing them in the middle of july about scientists right and i'm making it exciting yeah i mean that's there's no one there's literally no one who's doing that i mean there's we love quentin tarantino and fincher and like, there's a few people who can draw crowds still, but there's no one like him doing it at this scale. And the other

thing about this with regard to scale is there are choices made in terms of, and this is what I was starting to say to you when you basically riled me up and got me just talking nonsense when we were first started talking about this movie a few months ago, but you could tell in the trailer of the movie that he was going to be doing things with sound design and like a kind of visualization of science that almost any other director if they tried to do it would just seem real hacky and he has assembled a team and has ideas about this stuff that you can tell that he really honed during interstellar that i thought really worked in the film that basically like um showing us what we feel like is happening inside not just a bomb but inside of or not just an atom but inside of oppenheimer's mind is exciting and

works and because the film is cut so tightly and so quickly cutting to a moment like that where you're hearing a kind of crackling and there's a kinetic feeling of you know neutrons colliding into each other it works in the movie and i think if it were more overwrought or slower or if it were inverted and it was more like i thought of the movie the imitation game a lot while watching this another movie about a brilliant misunderstood figure who greatly influenced the future and just how drab and dull and linear and monochromatic that movie is relative to a movie like this. Great family holiday movie, though. I'm glad you and your dad had a nice time

at it. Actually, it was me and the Barons. Oh, the Barons. I love that. That's nice. I would love to see a film with them, but not that film. Movies like this are boring. That's really my point is that biopics of great men tend to be boring. And there are actually a few great men

featured in this film well-known historical figures where i was so into the flow of the film that there was a part of me that wanted to be like let's go do two hours with that guy let's go two hours with that guy sure i could have jumped into a whole other story train and so i thought it was just tremendously effective i'm'm very, I think that this movie, like all of Christopher Nolan's movies, has just an absolutely bizarre vision of women in the world. And I cannot believe that this is still happening. This is what I would like to talk to Kai Bird about.

I'd like to do some fact checking. Well, there's a significant woman in his life named Jean Tatlock, who is a kind of a lover and a friend, a consort over many years. And then, of course, there is his wife, who is portrayed by Emily Blunt in the film. Florence Pugh portrays Jean Tatlock. I haven't completed American Prometheus, but as far as I have read, the film is very accurate to the way these women are framed. There is one scene with Florence Pugh. I don't believe that's in the book.

Okay. Not in that way. Not in that way. Like the event does happen. Sure. But not in that way. No, I think we're talking about something different. I'm not being glib about that event.

I'm being glib about something else. It's fine. You're talking about when they play one-on-one to 21 in basketball? Yes, you're so right. Yeah.

Is it a version of one-on-one? Is that what you're thinking of? Yes. Yeah, that's the one I'm thinking of. I don't remember

it being rendered in the book that way. Okay, all right. I enjoyed that. I mean, okay, we can just say that this is a baudier-than-usual

Christopher Nolan movie. And in fact, for anybody who follows these sorts of things, it was cited for sex and graphic nudity. And that's one of the reasons why it's an R-rated film. And there are a couple of flourishes in that way in the filmmaking, which I'm not sure if they worked, but I appreciated their boldness. That's something I feel comfortable saying. It's memorable definitely for for for a man like me it's quite memorable um what do you think of the other performances the non-killian murphy division of performances oh they're all great yeah and and there is just sort of like a pop-up surprise quality to pretty much all of them that is delightful as a appreciator of

character actors from the last 20 to 70 years i don't know it's quite a wide swath um yeah it's weird to be like i don't want to spoil but you don't want academy award-winning actor x's appearance in the film but that is the it is that kind of movie where the an actor shows up in the middle of the movie and i was like, oh, he's in this. Oh my goodness. Which is very exciting. There was one person who showed up

and I was like, oh, well, they've got Chris now. They always had Chris, but they had Chris. I know, and Wayne Jenkins showed up. It was fucking awesome.

Yeah, I love that. It was a great scene. Hoitava and Hoitama shot this movie. He's been the filmmaker for Nolan of late. He also shot Nope. He might be the best living cinematographer. He's certainly somebody who is very flexible in storytelling style. Roger Deakins is alive.

He is alive. That's true. Roger Deakins is the greatest living cinematographer. You want to bring that energy into this right now? I don't know. I guess Roger hasn't made a movie in a few years. So,

for the last four years. He is podcasting. So you're saying he's got the belt is what you're saying. I think he has the belt. He has the belt. Thank you, Bob. That is,

I believe he has the belt. Jennifer Lame edited this movie and that's actually quite interesting because she also edited Tenet, which I thought was brilliantly edited, but I didn't know many people didn't feel as strongly about that movie. I still don't understand it, but I think't know many people didn't feel as strongly about that movie. I still don't understand it,

but I think it probably was, but it still was well edited. Yeah. She tells a great story about how he wouldn't tell her anything about the story when she interviewed with him, but he did say to her that this will be the hardest movie

you've ever had to edit. Until, maybe until Oppenheimer. And I wanted to mention Ludwig Göransson too, whose score is quite striking. Yes. And I think part of the reason that those first two hours works is because of the music

that he has written for this film. And he is another guy who, you know, the three of them, I think in the last 10 years have kind of risen in the ranks of their perspective skill sets. And Jennifer Lame is really interesting because she kind of got her start

working with Noah Baumbach and Greta Gerwig. You know, she cut Frances Ha and then eventually started moving through the Hollywood system. And it's interesting to find her on this film at this time. Yeah, during the Barbie moment. You know, I wrote this down in a somewhat glib way,

but I genuinely, what do you think this movie is about? Like thematically, what is the ultimate idea that nolan is presenting here it's hard to be a genius and had to have the weight of the world on your shoulders and would you get it right and do you think it is truly like a kind of auto fiction like a no and i I don't think that's fair to Christopher Nolan. I mean, obviously all of his films involve a tortured genius man who's navigating the world and not always doing the right thing, but you're rooting for them anyway. And ultimately, you're, I think, meant to believe that they're trying their best. Yeah.

Vigilantes of the soul. Sure. So I'm sure that that's part of what interested him about both this book and the film. You know, he, I believe, started working on this during COVID. He did. I have some questions about that. Well, sure. It's also a really interesting question about how do you process that time of the possible end of the world and what your role or role can't, should or can't be in it.

And that this was his entry point probably says something about him. And I don't mean that in a positive negative way, but I, you know, I don't think he's like, I am Oppenheimer or whatever. I just, I think that this movie, this subjective portrait, as you said, is certainly consistent with the way he seems to understand the world and history and men within it.

Yeah, I think it's genuinely a portrait of an artist in a lot of ways. And I think he associates in some ways. He's also, he is probably the signature mainstream filmmaker of science. You know, he's somebody who's really interested in putting science in his movies and using scientists as consultants and almost writers in his films. And so associating so deeply with a scientist, one who over time became misunderstood or alienated

from certain parts of our country. I mean, it feels like he's associating himself in some ways. And he has made himself this kind of cause celeb of film

and the theatrical experience and someone who is kind of fighting to preserve something that is essential while also pushing the medium forward. I mean, I think there are a lot of... There's a running idea in the film of that there are theoretical scientists and then

actually having to make things happen and that certainly speaks to his his career and and the types of things he tries to do yeah he's trying to show you something you've never seen before even in a biopic of a scientist um who is your who's your mvp of the movie killian murphy yeah still not christopher nolan no killian murphy wow okay for me it is christopher well okay uh who's your favorite non-lead performer isn't that gonna spoil it yeah i think that's spoiler yeah what you can't just say someone that you really liked in the movie? That's a spoiler? Because we've just talked about what it is to be a, you know, what fun it is to have the surprise of people in this one.

Okay. Also, Nolan heads really don't like knowing things, so. Nolan heads don't care what I think anyway, so who cares? Maybe they will. Do you feel like they're going to come around? Maybe every single person who's a Nolan fan is hate listening to this episode. Yeah. Trying to amass a sassier against you. And then they're going to try to get in touch with me. feel like they're going to come around? Maybe every single person who's a Nolan fan is hate listening to this episode. Yeah. Trying to amass a dossier against you.

And then they're going to try to get in touch with me. And I'm going to say to you guys, good luck. Okay. Hey, can I ask you guys a question about this before we move on to Barbie? And then I'll ask the same question about Barbie. Are there movies, either Nolan movies or not, I guess a couple Nolan movies at least,

that you think that if people don't have tickets for this opening weekend, should re-watch before going to see this? I think Amanda Sighted Dunkirk is a very good one. They're kind of paired. And JFK is the right answer, not being the Ricardos, despite my great podcast material. Right, the non-Nolan division. JFK is an interesting watch. I mean, I think JFK might actually be like overwhelm or blunt the power of Oppenheimer to some extent. You can watch it afterwards. Yeah. Yeah.

I just might. Okay. I already have tickets to see both of these films again. Can I tell you something that's a real compliment? Of course. That I love nothing more.

I've been feeling so low. I'm sorry. But you liked this movie. And everything's going to be okay. Thank you. The other day I was out of podcasts and I had to, I was out of podcasts. Oh, out of podcasts. Okay. And I was taking Knox on a walk and I needed something to listen to. And just out of nowhere, I thought to myself, you know what I'm going to do? I'm going to re-listen to the JFK rewatchables.

Still the funniest, most representative two hours of tape on you bill and chris that i have have ever heard it's it's it's why i love you guys i mean you're all idiots but i love you and that's why that's that's nice to hear it that is sort of our trinity you know that is our trinity test is is the jfk pod um i wonder if i will go back and do like a full nolan rewatch i did that during the pandemic at a time when I was like, do I have this all wrong? Am I misunderstanding it? And I felt like I didn't.

I felt like I felt pretty secure in how I was thinking about his movies. Let me ask you this. How much Nolan are we going to be talking about during our Oppenheimer deep dive with Chris? I would guess a lot. So I, this weekend, I'm going to have to do a few. Yeah, I'll watch a couple as well. I think it's schematically much different than those other movies,

but also features a lot of his tropes. You know, multiple timelines, cross-cutting, you know, the tortured genius idea that Amanda was just discussing. I think women sidelined by their tortured genius men, great concepts of science and struggle. Bobby, another thought I had to myself during this film, and I don't know the answer to it, is how will the Nolan Bros feel about this? Because it has an almost Bo is a Freedish type rejection of the genre that made him a cult figure. Yeah.

I loved that. So yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I know you did because you don't like the other thing, but you know, if, if you're like a human being who enjoyed inception,

as I did the time I saw it in theaters, still don't know what happened, but like, you know, is it, is it spinning? I don't know, but I had a nice time.

This is a different experience. So I'm really curious whether people who are invested in those movies will feel like they got what they wanted. I'm honestly not sure. But I also, is there anyone more out of step with those people in the universe than me? Probably not. So it's not even worth weighing in on. Is there anything else you want to say about Oppenheimer before we spend probably two hours talking about oppenheimer next week i think i'm good i thought it was obviously extremely impressive and i tried to be honest about parse you know parsing out my

reaction to the film and my reaction to you just being you which which i i appreciate you even when i think you're a dummy. Okay. Well, this will be interesting then as we pivot to Barbie. Barbie, of course, is technically the fourth feature film directed by Greta Gerwig, the third solo directorial feature from Greta. It's written by Greta and her partner Noah Baumbach. It stars Margot Robbie as Barbie and Ryan Gosling as Ken and a whole slew of other performers, many of whom you may have seen in the months-long marketing onslaught that we have engaged with.

Inescapable, you know, assault of Barbie-ness. Barbie is, of course, a doll that it was created. Was it the early 1960s by Mattel? I want to say 1962, but... I believe that's correct. This movie has been long awaited, and I think not necessarily clearly communicated actually quite what it's about.

There's been a lot of anticipation for the movie and excitement for the movie, especially following the incredible success of Lady Bird and Little Women, and Greta emerging as such a significant filmmaker in our culture. So, Amanda. Can I just correct myself quickly?

Barbie was launched in 1959 and Barbie's Dreamhouse was launched in 1962. Well, in the immediate aftermath of the events of Oppenheimer came Barbie. What did you think of Barbie, Amanda? I mean, I absolutely loved it.

Like, you know, I have no distance from it and I did think to myself,, Amanda? I mean, I absolutely loved it. Like, you know, I have no distance from it. And I did think to myself, and I've said this, every time I go see a Greta Gerwig film, I have a moment where I'm like, oh, is this how the boys feel when they go see a movie? Because it is so... It's a much smarter, more creative, more successful,

you know, more inspired, more everything version of my brain. But I'm like, oh, so you have the same references and you think the same things are funny and you turn the things over in your head the same way. And point A to B, I would never get there, but I can like go along on the journey with Greta Gerwig in a way that like few other filmmakers have ever really mapped it out for me. So I was just elated.

I just absolutely loved it. And I also know that there are going to be people who are like, what the fuck? Yeah, that's interesting. I mean, just as I probably should have mentioned that this is described as a journey of self-discovery when Barbie and Ken are expelled from their utopian Barbie land because of an existential crisis that Barbie experiences. I think that that's not spoiling too much that isn't already in the marketing materials

for this movie. I liked it a lot. I don't know that I loved it, but I think that it would be virtually impossible to make a Barbie movie that was one of my favorite movies of all time. Um, and there are probably a variety of reasons for that. I don't know if it's one of my favorite movies of all time. I like Lady Bird is like one of my favorite movies. And mine too.

That's a truly great movie. And Little Women is as well. I think what i was kind of awed by is like i could tell even sitting there i was like oh we this is sort of an instant classic like this will be watching barbie you felt that yeah this will be like it does the thing of towing the weird existential meta, you know, self-loathing corporate, like what is feminist, whatever, you know, maze that it does,

while also being like a very funny, extremely pop and broad Barbie movie. Yeah. And I was like, oh, this will just come up in conversation. Like people will be like, oh, it'll be like this. And maybe not your corner of the film world. But in... Don't other me. I'm not othering you.

You know what I'm saying? Like, just everyone, like, I know who isn't a film nerd has tickets for it. I, like, did a survey of all my friends this weekend. Like, everyone I know is going to say it. Most of those people are women, you know. And they've got tickets. They're going to go. Which I can't say that's been true of a movie like literally i don't remember the last time i i think that's a huge reason why it's projected to be so successful this is a mainstream

pop event movie that women are excited and so some of it is just like if you get that many people in the theater and you don't totally fuck it up then it'll just be a reference point in a way that other things aren't but i was like oh okay like you they i thought that it landed the plane it has it's it has its cake it eats it too and i was like this is gonna be around with us for a long time and i think that's a tribute to greta gerwig i do also think that that's a tribute to warner brothers marketing department who like figured it out so I think it's I mean I was like oh they did it it's still not my favorite Greta Gerwig movie but like that's that's fine you know no I think it's interesting that you've located it already even like so early

in the conversation as basically like an instant cultural touchstone because it may end up becoming that for many people who see the movie at a young age. It is kind of similarly to Oppenheimer in many ways, a kind of like primal analysis of tortured people, of like people in crisis. It's also, it's hard to be a genius. It's hard to be Barbie is literally the theme. Yes. They have like so much in common. And even though obviously the execution of Barbie is way different. I think that there are some very specific like creative choices that make the movie really, really successful. The design of Barbie Land and like the execution of Barbie Land is like is a brilliant stroke. It's just like incredibly well done. like it's made by somebody who is like totally understands the arc of movie musicals and peewee's big adventure and all these movies that she's been citing over the last few months that like

she can feel she's been saying in interviews that she called peter weir and was like how did you do the truman show because that's kind of what i need i needed to feel human but also manufactured yes the manufactured reality of barbie which is incredibly effective and is primarily like the first 40 minutes of the movie. And then the movie shifts as the existential crisis hits, which people will have seen in the trailer. We're not spoiling anything.

Barbie, it dawns on her that mortality exists. And that then leads to, I would say a series of, the movie like lost me a little bit in the middle. Okay. And then when we come back is when I felt, i felt like in the hands of someone who like i get very similar to my nolan compliment which is like only kind of only greta gerwig can get away with this like the deep enunciation of what had previously been subtextual themes of her movies like the final the second half of this movie is just announcing what she thinks about being alive, which is so exciting and cool, but rare and hard to do.

And there are a couple speeches in particular that are like literally in Greta Gerwig's personal cadence. And if you've ever heard an interview with her, you can just hear her actually like almost dictating it, it would seem. And credit to both performers who like get the gretaness you know which i i've just found to be like a very charming moment it is it is like singularly greta i don't disagree with you about the middle third it didn't lose me and in fact i cried twice in barbie and one of them was in the middle sections at the most hallmark shit you've ever seen in your entire life stop no actually that i was just like really charmed by but then i think bus stop led to something else

that was even more like a visit to school um no wow it was um i'll tell you next week but it's like it's like it's hugely hugely embarrassing that it made me cry. And it is kind of the broadest, most aimed at eight-year-olds and their mom's moment, which this movie definitely has. The fact that I do actually think an eight-year-old will be confused by a lot of it, but will like it. And then also that all of my friends who are going on Friday night

will also have a great time is another of its many magic tricks. And also like in a lot of ways, like a neat summary of one of the major conflicts of the movie itself. And one of the, anyway, it's very smart. But yeah, I cried at the really embarrassing thing. And then at the end.

I'm very curious to find, because I can't even think of what you're saying. But it's okay. You don't have to reveal it now. Well, I think it would be a spoiler. Okay. Then we won't reveal it. Bobby, is it a spoiler to say that the section that Sean is talking about introduces some of the meta-corporate stuff? I don't think so.

Because that's in the trailer. You see Will Ferrell characters clearly. some of the the meta corporate stuff? I don't think so because I think from the trailer you see Will Ferrell character is clearly that part of the movie does not work for me and it's like

kind of holding me back a little bit because it is a present reminder that of the corporate nature of the story now I think that

for the most part in the final act of the movie it not only like diminishes that angst while watching it, it kind of like subverts it in such a fun way that it's almost irresistible. But this is a movie that features critical characters who are Mattel executives. Like there's just no getting around that. So any angst you had about air or about any of those other movies, like this is even more so.

This is like overwhelmingly a corporate affair. Yes. I was thinking about this on the drive-in actually. You're 100% right. And I felt the meta self-awareness of it, like the almost like punishing self-awareness of it, to me, cancels out the ickiness more than Air, which respectfully was a Nike commercial.

You may be called a hypocrite in the face of this. That's fine. I just, I delineated the difference. Like Air is about, hey, isn't it great that Nike invented Michael Jordan? A white guy in a boardroom was like, I made Michael Jordan into an icon. And this is very,

like, flagellating itself almost, to your point, to the point of, like, enough of knowing that it is,

like, a brand extension. Now, did I go home and think a lot, did I even think a little bit during the movie, okay,

this is, obviously, like, Mattel will sell a lot more about this. We all the new yorker piece we know that it's the launching of their thing like it is unavoidably also a block in some corporate you know mega extension i don't care it didn't really like it didn't like like it didn't ruin the enjoyment of the movie for me I actually thought as a story choice

I didn't think that they the utilization of that as like a potential like villain or antagonist or that I thought it was just not as kind of sharp

and considered as a lot of other parts of the movie the realization of Barbie Land in the first 40 minutes got it nailed it did every joke land for me

no but that's okay most of them did. I thought Margot Robbie and Ryan Gosling are like legitimately excellent in this movie. Margot Robbie should be nominated for an Oscar

for this. I'm glad to hear you say that because obviously everybody is talking about Ken and the Ken thing is a great meme. He's very funny. Margot Robbie is

legitimately amazing in this movie. Because the part is so weird. And it's so weird. And it doesn't work without her and. 100% agree. Her like comic sincerity. Yes.

There are moments of genuine emotion as portrayed by a Barbie doll that are very powerful. Yeah. And she's. I've always been a huge fan. Babylon Hive. Yeah. Wolf of Wall Street. Sure.

I'm team Margot, always have been. But again, there's like maybe, have there any other actresses that could do this? Like they're very short list of people that could pull it off. So she's great. I think, like I said, when we get into, you know, the critic Alison Wilmore, I thought, used an interesting word in her review,

which was a pretty mixed review of the film, which was that she felt that there was a kind of defensiveness against the undeniable criticisms that would come along with making a Barbie movie in the kind of conclusion of the story. That a lot of the subversion and a lot of the kind of like self-awareness that Greta is like clearly a kind of part of her artistic mind to sort of like self-abnegate when you know you're doing something that is like, that people will criticize, but then also try to be honest

about how you truly feel and how you're experiencing the world. Right. I didn't feel it was defensive, but I do understand that criticism. I do as well. Alison Wilmer is one of my favorite critics. She and I,

and I read that review as well. I think she and I had a different reaction to it. To me, the defensive, like, I don't know if it read it as defensiveness but that conflict and that awareness is like is actually part of the text yeah and it's a part of the very thing that is being investigated and you know another thing that alice and wilmore says in that piece um the movie doesn't ultimately solve some of the big questions that it raises even you know some of those themes of

like am i shilling and like what you know how are we supposed to be all this and just kind of throws its hands up and i think in some ways that can be true but i also it's also what i do you know like there there is something that's like very honest about the reflection and about the fact of like like okay well at least in my 38 year old like lived experience like well i don't know what to do yeah like i like barbie sucks and everything that they said is true and i didn't play with them but also like i am i care about all sorts of bullshit and this was like really fun and here i am and it just is what it is and you know i, I get that not being enough for me. I was like, well, this is where I am with it.

So it's, I'm going with it. It's an interesting question of the rigidity of your own ethical compass around entertainment. You know, both of these movies, I think, do things that made me a little bit queasy. And what am I willing to forgive and what am I not willing to forgive? And why? And why am I more excited by one part of it than the other? Barbie in particular, I find really hard to talk about without spoiling in part because I do find that the third act is like pretty extraordinary. but I also think it's my read on it was like this will be incoherent to anybody under the age of 25 like it's very mature

and the jokes are not for children and I mean you make it sound like everyone is just like fucking

you know like on the roof of the dream house I just mean like what they're saying to each other and like the way that

the characters are kind of deciding what they're saying to each other. And like the way that the characters are kind of deciding what they want their fate to be. Which, like, I mean, you mentioned

the Truman Show. Yeah. Like, the Matrix is a huge influence on this movie. Totally. Huge. And The Wizard of Oz

is a huge influence on this movie. Movies that seem like they're for kids, you know, that seem like they're like adventures or action movies

or these candy-colored things, but that under the surface are made by people at crossroads of their lives at at middle age and thinking about who they are and who they want to be there's like the the kind of like backward looking read on the wachowskis and who the wachowskis were and what they were making when they made the matrix and who they are now is incredibly interesting and relevant to the way that story is understood. Reading Greta Gerwig saying, like, I'm a middle-aged woman in America interested in ideas of femininity,

but also wanting success. And, like, we joke around with, like, can Amanda have it all on this podcast? This is the can-you-have-it-all movie. It is. I mean, it's definitely in that lineage, which is really beautiful. It also, going back to Oppenheimer, is ultimately just two very different interpretations of what it means to just to be a person trying to figure out what to do with your particular talent um it's no surprise that gerwig's interpretation speaks more to me than nolan's interpretation of it but that i mean that is like a funny amazing part of these two things being paired yeah listen like i said i have no distance from this um and that's okay

and also people can call me a hypocrite but um you know i was thinking about how you just spent a lot of time talking about the Transformers movie. And in fact, you wouldn't even let me on a podcast because you were like, no, I just need to do Transformers by myself. But, you know. I don't think that's exactly what I said, but I'll remember. I think I'm getting frequently misquoted on this podcast. I think I wanted to have a sustained space of nine minutes to communicate, frankly, about the very silly Transformers movie. Yeah.

If you'd like to have an uninterrupted nine minutes of Barbie time, I'm happy to grant it. No, because I don't even really, I was not a Barbie person. Like the dolls, I think we must have had a couple. I was trying to remember. I don't know if there was like a specific band because of what Barbies, you know, were understood to represent bys if there was it was probably from my dad and not for my mom just because my mom was like whatever figuring out like which is what like all the women of the 80s had to do god bless um so no it's not like they finally made a movie about this doll that meant so much to me but i do think that it can also speak to people who played with the dolls or care about the

dolls like it yeah the tagline is this is a movie for people who love barbie and yeah for people who hate barbie and also for people who don't really care i had no relationship yeah exactly whatsoever i guess my sister played with them yeah as a girl but like it's true that children won't understand all of the, many of the jokes, including the last line, which is an all-timer. But, you know, I think they'll get the major beats. This also has a lot in common with Toy Story and the Lego movie. And it still is, like, candy-colored. And I think the performers are communicating like on several different levels. So maybe you only understand the broadest one the first time you see it.

And I think that that's a great experience for a lot of people who go on to become great cinephiles. They get exposed to something sophisticated that seems like it's for them at an early age. And then that informs the tone. And then they start to learn about story choice, character development, all those things. I think you're right that that will be an outcome of this. One thing that struck me as I thought about the movie a little bit more was that both Lady Bird and Joe from Little Women are certainly women that are kind of like searching for their place and trying to figure out their future. But they're very tough-minded. They're very outspoken.

They're very defiant in a way. And Barbie is not that kind of a character and she's more of a nafe she's more of a like a lost soul and on a quest and i thought that was kind of an interesting pivot for greta gerwig because i don't know you know the handful of times i've met her she's like just affable and smart and sweet and obviously quite intelligent, but not domineering, but also is clearly like a leader and a person who is in charge of these big productions and is like making a bid for biggest female director ever. You're literally talking about the text of the movie, which is just really funny.

I mean, that's sort of why I'm thinking about it. I think the thing that the three characters have in common is a level of sincerity that I don't share totally with Greta Gerwig, but I'm really moved by. And it's like her work pushes me to be a little softer around the edges and to believe that, you know, maybe things can be like a slightly less dire version of what they are so there's also i think it's like sincerity and then also the barbie character is very funny like she's just writing the like a true screwball character which which is consistent with a lot of what gerwig does do you want to say you know, in the same way that we pointed out the craftspeople that are behind Oppenheimer, I think it's probably important to do the same for this movie.

Yeah. If there is a person competing with Hoyte von Hoytema, it might be Rodrigo Prieto. Yes. Martin Scorsese, cinematographer of choice, who just so happened to shoot Barbie, and I think does an adequate job of capturing this world of creation but the people who deserve the credit really more for that

are Sarah Greenwood the production designer and Jacqueline Duran the kind of legendary costume designer multiple Academy Award winner who's worked I think on Greta's last two films

and your boy Mark Ronson who did the music great stuff did you like the music in the movie? I did so there's

a running complaint i have with all movies aimed at women and this is particularly true of the romantic comedies like post 2000 which is where they just tend to throw in the cheapest fake top 40 bullshit into what's an otherwise like amazing film the devil wears prada soundtrack is a real low point and that's you know one of the better ones it has like late period u2 on it and that is like a victory for women's films anyway um is that a shot at or or a compliment to you too well i said late period so do you know cr and i have been plotting a boys weekend? No, boys. We're going to Vegas to the Sphere to see U2. Oh, that's really cute. And you didn't invite Zach?

Does Zach like U2? I don't know, actually. That feels a little bit like too earnest for him. Yeah, probably. Well, I'll speak with him about it this weekend. Wait, so anyway. Do you know about the Sphere? So it's like a giant eyeball uh it's like a giant uh it's like a giant headphone it's like a giant speaker oh it looks kind of like an eyeball from i mean the shape of it but the way

it sounds it's supposed to give you this incredible oral experience okay a u r a l you know who really likes live music who's's that? My son. So maybe you should take him instead. You want me, C.R. Knox. Listen. Head to Vegas. That's like the hangover for us. I know. It's like we could all make a lot of money.

That's dangerous territory. Anyway, okay. Frankly, I would love that. So, yeah. Knox is a front row guy. So, I don't know. Did I not tell you that? In my old age.

I don't know if I can hack that. He went to like a baby concert and he was just like in the front row like full on like with a plastic tambourine just like what is he like you know doing the blue sky person or red hill mining town what are his favorite what are his favorite youtube deep cuts um wait no we were talking about the music so anyway i have a um the movie does have a little bit of what you just described. It does, but I think it's elevated. Like it's not the garbage version of it. It's not like,

you know, bargain bin. It's Mark Bronson. I do wonder if 10 years from now, we may feel, but I, you know, I always,

that's the problem with doing like contemporary stuff. I think they did a better job than most. There is also one, um, music cue that is not by Mark Ronson that is the best thing that has ever happened. You will not spoil that. I will not spoil it. I listened to it

three times on the way to work today. Would you describe yourself as a fan of that song? Of course. Okay. And I also just want to say that the lyrics of that song are just an amazing summary of the Barbie experience. It just layers everyone.

It's really intentional and a beautiful text. She is, you know, obviously she's very important to us because she is probably the most significant millennial filmmaker, but she has an access to the 1990s that is different from many of her contemporaries i think yeah um i she just i guess her definition of what is pop is slightly different than the other filmmakers and is more in line with like the backstreet boys late mid to late 1990s pop experience that that i had and uh appreciate and love very much i'll ask you the same question what is this movie about mid to late 1990s pop experience that, that I had and, uh, appreciate and love very much.

I'll ask you the same question. What is this movie about thematically? I already said, it's really, it's hard to be Barbie and it's, it's hard to be, it's hard to have it all. You think that's what it is?

It's hard to have it all. Well, no, I mean, it's a lot deeper than that. You know, that's like my one line for you, but it's,

it is engaging with the, how are you supposed to be, um, uh, a woman in the world and, and the, it's a coming of age story in some ways of just like, what are you supposed to be?

And how are you supposed to react to everyone around you? And, and, and what are you supposed to expect for yourself? And can, and can you figure it out? This is a very sincere question. Yeah.

Do you worry about how you're perceived by the world? Because this movie and Oppenheimer are both, I feel like, movies about people that think they know it all and then very quickly learn that they do not. And then they are confronted by doubt and then they must go on a kind of journey to expunge the doubt or explore the doubt or figure it out and i think it's like two movies that are made by people who are like i'm great but maybe not great enough so i need to make something about what it means to try about trying to be great yeah we're trying to be perfect or what you know whatever well i think well i i mean i think that's a really essential distinction what is the difference between being great which is you know the christopher nolan great man take oh but i i will i will i will take issue that's only slightly because i think that in science there is this

idea of kind of like perfection of like completing the experiment that is different from previous iterations of nolan in some ways where he would use a kind of sentimentality to cloud the feasibility of something whereas this is a movie about a character who is attempting to perfect right a tool and himself in some ways so that's why i see them as really paired. No, I see that. I don't think, I think the traditional great man ambition strain of Nolan and just of men making movies like stuck out to me in Oppenheimer.

And I don't mean that like as a criticism. It's obviously a rich text and has animated like the last hundred years of cinema history so you make an interesting point i'm gonna see it again and i i think that's certainly possible i do also think there is like ambition and and greatness and and what will i leave to history or what you know all of that is very wrapped in it which I think is distinct from the perfectionism that Barbie, the doll and character are interrogating as a way of interrogating like expectations of women, which, you know, I'm

already tired of listening to myself talk when I say that, but that's another thing that's amazing about the movie is that it is literally about that for two hours but it is entertaining uh and very funny and and thoughtful and does not feel like a women's study seminar who's the mvp of barbie margot robbie well I mean besides gerwig you know it's obviously gerwig but then it's margot robbie the way you know I could you do this with anyone besides her? Well, it was interesting, you know, obviously, once upon a time when this was still a Sony film, Amy Schumer was going to be Barbie.

Right. Which I think would have been a different kind of disquisition on the perfection idea around Barbie. And then Anne Hathaway was going to portray Barbie. And she was ultimately, the movie moved to Warner Brothers and she was replaced. One thing we haven't noted, of course, Christopher Nolan, longtime moved to Warner Brothers and she was replaced. One thing we haven't noted, of course, Christopher Nolan,

longtime filmmaker for Warner Brothers after the events of the HBO Max fracas in which all of those films on their slate in 2021 were moved to streaming. Christopher Nolan left Warner Brothers, joined Universal. They are arriving on the same day in a kind of showdown, even though we know that Warner Brothers is attempting to lure Christopher Nolan back into their fray. We know that Greta Gerwig next is apparently

making a Chronicles of, a pair of Chronicles of Narnia films for Netflix. I love her. You know, it's interesting. I think the other thing

that I would say is that there's an amazing resonance in Christopher Nolan, who was a filmmaker who was pursuing original stories and came out of

independent filmmaking, used Batman to level up to become one of the most significant filmmakers of his generation. And it's very clear to me that that is exactly what Greta Gerwig is doing. She is taking the most well-known, I guess for lack of a better word, female intellectual property. Maybe in American history? Possibly. In Barbie. And using it to transport her weird ideas about being alive and to become incredibly successful. And I guess that...

You can't have it all, Sean. She just might be able to. I mean, she just might be able to. Although, look at Christopher Nolan, you know, 15 years later after making these Batman movies and becoming the filmmaker of his generation, still seems pretty wracked by the idea that nobody totally understands his genius. Right. Yeah. I don't think that goes away.

Yeah. No one can really, really have it all, at least not Peace of Mind. I think Peace of Mind is like the sub-theme of both of these movies. And you cited this already, but both of these movies were, the filmmakers decided to do them during the pandemic. And they're also ideas about kind of being quarantined. You know, like Barbie Land is a kind of quarantine. And Los Alamos and the Manhattan Project is a kind of quarantine. And these are two filmmakers arriving at complicated times in their lives, thinking about who they want to be and what they want their art to represent.

And these are the films that they chose to make, which is so fascinating. There are also two characters who face just a total rupture in the fabric of the world as they know it. Absolutely. And then how are they going to respond to that? Let's do some predictions to wrap up. Okay. As much a part of the Barbenheimer experience is the movies, a big part of it is the box office and how well these movies are going to do. Matt Bellany had an entire episode about the projections around this movie. We talked about how we kind of don't necessarily care about the tracking on films, but the tracking on Barbie in particular is all over the place. I saw a range between $100 million and $180 million in its opening weekend.

That is a pretty vast chasm i thought that the tracking episode that matt bellany did was very interesting even though we were kind of like i think it's broken so 35 and over women have been very slow to be represented in tracking and that just made me feel bad um so i would like to provide my own track you're 28 I don't know what you're talking about anyway I texted basically everyone in my phone who answers text messages

fairly rapidly who was on that list like Barack Obama who else is in that list yeah how'd you know our fellow Leo happy early birthday Barack I'm sure he'll see it

Barack? yeah for sure it's going to be on his best of list when I was when I was watching The Bear has he talked about how much he likes The Bear I'm sure he'll see it. Brock? Yeah. For sure. It's going to be on his best of list at the end of the year. When I was watching The Bear, has he talked about how much he likes The Bear? I'm sure he loves The Bear, right?

Chicago Story. Yeah, exactly. I assume so, yeah. Okay. Anyway. No, just like all my friends of a similar age. You texted them and said, will you be seeing Barbie? Yeah, or like where, even some of them, I was like, where are you with Barbie right now?

Okay. My New York set of friends all have tickets together on Friday night in the front row because that's all they could get. And they said that they would have bought a seat for me like Elijah, but the tickets weren't available. So it's okay. I've already seen it. Bobby and I were trying to reschedule some things for the pod and he has tickets on a Friday and he looked to see if he could cancel his ticket and find another ticket over the next three days. And what did you find, Bob? I found some late evening stuff or some non-reserved seats in New York City over the next few days, but it's tight. There's lines out the door already. I passed by an influencer

screening on Wednesday night. So it's tight. This is the movie event of the year. I know. It's remarkable. Yeah. I would not have guessed that a year ago. I would have guessed that it would have been a hit, but I would not have guessed it would have been this. I would not have either.

And I really do credit Warner Brothers Marketing for figuring it out. There's a page, there's a tab on the Barbie Wikipedia that is all of the product integrations. It's insane. It's quite a few. It's Wikipedia that is all of the product integrations. It's insane. It's quite a few. Like, it's just, like, I know we talked about this and you guys aren't on the same internet

that I am, so you're not getting the same, like, product suggestions, but I could outfit my entire life in Barbie tie-ins. I could spend $100,000 easily on Barbie tie-ins. If you Google Greta, google has like a special oh yeah i just googled barbie to find out when she was introduced and i like couldn't see past the sparkles glitter yeah listen yeah uh okay so then then how much money you think this movie is going to make over the over the friday saturday sunday of its opening weekend 140 that was almost exactly my guess well that's there's a reason we do a podcast together.

Yeah. That's a lot. Did you think I was going to like it after you saw it? Of course I did. I mean, I think genuinely in the middle of the movie, I was like, ooh. Like, I was like, did this go wrong? Oh, yeah. And then there was a critical scene in which Gen Z confronts Barbie that I was like, okay.

We're back. We're going back. We're going to be okay. Okay. And I was relieved by that. But when we were in the Mattel offices, I was not pleased. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I was a bit concerned that we had gone askew.

But I was thinking of you when that was happening, too. I was like, oh, gosh. Amanda's going to have to say she didn't like the Barbie movie on the podcast. Okay. But then, as you said, she lands the plane. say she didn't like the Barbie movie on the podcast. But then, as you said, she lands the plane. Even what they do in the Mattel office? It's okay.

I was like, this is like Hudsucker proxy, but not funny. Same question as for Nolan. Should people be re-watching Greta's films before going to see this? I did look, I didn't finish it, but I started watching Lady Bird last night to kind of see what the hallmarks are.

I mean, her filmography is shorter, right? Yeah. So it's a little easier to wrap your arms around that. Also, you know, why deny yourself Lady Bird and Little Women? You know? You feeling down? I don't think I've seen Little Women

since I saw it the first time. With you, right? We saw it together. Yeah, we saw it together. Little Women, just one of the best movies of 2019. One of the least talked about. What are people doing? It's incredible.

And it gets better on rewatches. I think, honestly, maybe one of, not the flaws, but the fact that it's deeper the more that you watch it is possibly why some, you know, why some people missed it. I don't think even I was as like, again, I was so close to it that, you know, I was like, I really like it. It's really important to me. But, you know, it was hard to recognize it for the honest masterpiece that it is. It's amazing. Credit is such a paradox because obviously Hollywood has been plagued by its inability to empower women to make movies for 150 years.

And there are so few in the history of the medium that have been in charge, especially in America. And she's made three movies now by herself as a director. One of which is an independent coming of age story. One of which is an adaptation of-of-age story, one of which is an adaptation of a beloved but very old novel, and one of which is a vault into the IP sphere. It's a very familiar arc. And yet, each of the three films have been incredible financial successes and critically acclaimed.

Barbie, I would say, is not quite... I think there are a lot of people who are like, I feel handcuffed to the fact that this is a Mattel movie, and they can't get it out of their head. It's holding it a little below the acclaim that Oppenheimer has received, but nevertheless, it's still getting really good reviews. And she's

kind of making it look easy, and it's not easy. And I'm really just interested in the kind of like singular. She's my hero. Legit. Like there's just no one doing it like her. I, you know.

Yeah. Pretty fascinating. Okay. So 140. What about Oppenheimer? Which is tracking significantly below. Sure. And is a three hour film.

But it does have the premium screens that Tom Cruise so desperately wanted. What just popped into my head is that my husband and I want to go see this tomorrow. Oppenheimer. Well, we have a window with childcare and I was like, Oh, we should go see Barbie or Oppenheimer.

So Zach has not seen either movie? Zach has not seen either movie. Um, and he was like, yeah, I want our Oppenheimer. So one person who's not doing the work is my husband. Um,

but unlike Sean, are Oppenheimer. So one person who's not doing the work is my husband. But... Unlike Sean. Unlike Sean. Unlike Justin Sales who I don't know if he listened that long but Justin, thank you so much

for going to see Barbie and doing the work. Anyway. I always do the work. You do the work. You do the work. I do. I want to see all the films.

But we don't have Oppenheimer tickets. Do you think we're going to be able to get them? Absolutely not. Okay. Are you sure? Well, definitely not on 70 or IMAX. I think those are pretty much sold out in LA.

Okay. Even at like 2 p.m.? 12.30? Maybe. Maybe earlier in the day. Yeah, I forgot your window is stirring earlier in the day. Maybe. I got a 70 millimeter ticket on sunday night two nights

ago for oppenheimer okay because i really want to see it again and i really and i'm seeing barbie again tonight so oh that's fun are you going is are you taking eileen no jesus sean is no longer doing the work bobby uh eileen did not say that she knew masculinity withers before our very eyes well let's let's let's call Eileen. Eileen, do you want to see Barbie? Eileen's not picking up the phone. Yeah. I was really worried for a second there

that you were going to try to do an Eileen voice on the pod. No, I was like, you might want to nix that. It's not a spoiler, but I was going to throw myself in front of it anyway. She could not be less interested in being on the pod. In fact, she had an opportunity to be on the pod in person in a very special episode that we pre-recorded a few weeks ago. And she did not want to do it. And she vir her she was asked by everyone involved and she said no no thanks i'm good um one last little bit of predictions

oppenheimer box office give me a number 47 i said 52 that was the number i landed on this morning okay 52 and 140 would be 192 million before taking into account Mission Impossible Dead Reckoning Part 1, Sound of Freedom, Nope. The box office surprise of the summer, and all the other movies

we've been talking about for the past few months. So that would be a robust summer movie weekend. Would you say we're back? Right now, we're like unbelievably back. Yeah're in we're in back times 10 we're in back heaven we're in bacchanalia we're just so fucking back we're in johan sebastian back we are backenheimer so hard we fucking did it thank you so much for doing it

you know this uh this is half the year is basically an awards podcast. Right. These are two filmmakers who are frequently nominated for awards. Christopher Nolan actually weirdly less so because he makes blockbusters in the summer. And then he's snubbed and then the awards go to hell. This is an interesting occasion where are these best picture contenders? I think Oppenheimer certainly is just given its pedigree and. It's shape. It's shape.

Subject matter. And subject matter and where the Academy likes to put its money, so to speak. I would like to think that screenplay and performances are in play for Barbie. Well, before we get, let's do Oppenheimer first. Okay. I'm sorry. How many Oscar nominations do you think Christopher Nolan has? Okay. Off the top of your head. I just looked it up.

Three. Bobby, take a guess. Oscar nominations? Yeah. Two? He has five okay and he has never won his nominations are for best director for Dunkirk best picture for Dunkirk best original screenplay and best picture for Inception remember Inception is nominated for best picture and because that was like two years after dark night right correct yeah and best original screenplay for memento back in 2002 that's nice so those are his those aren't just those aren't all the nominations his films have gotten but those are his nominations um i think that currently

in play are killing i think killing murphy is probably a lock for best actor I do as well I think there is a chance for Emily Blunt we'll talk about it next week I think that is very dependent on the rest

of the slate we'll talk about it next week we're not doing we're just saying what could happen we'll talk about it next week

okay I think there is a 100% chance that Robert Downey Jr. is nominated yeah 100% chance I think it will be nominated for best picture I think it will be nominated for almost is a 100% chance that Robert Downey Jr. is nominated. Yeah. 100% chance.

I think it will be nominated for Best Picture. I think it will be nominated for almost everything below the line. Yeah. Cinematography. Adapted screenplay? Sound.

I'm not so sure about that one. Okay. Because I think some of your considerable criticisms will come into play. Considerable?

I was just engaging with the text. Yeah, you deeply considered your criticisms. I don't, what do you take, you're desperate to take issue with me. We're on the same team.

There's a difference between considered criticisms and considerable criticisms. That's true. The final hour of the movie didn't work. That's a considerable criticism. No, I said I was bored.

Well, that's even worse. I was locating it in my experience. I'm trying. Well, that's even worse. I was locating it in my experience. I'm trying to be Johann Sebastian Bach. Okay. And back. Listen. And you're out here considering things.

Well. Do you think Barbie will be nominated for Best Picture? I don't. Do you think Margot Robbie will be nominated for Best Actress? I hope so. Do you think Ryan Gosling will run in Best Actor or Best Supporting Actor? He should run and win in Best Supporting Actor. I'm not saying that he should win.

I can't even think of the supporting actor field right now. But, like, if he runs in Best Actor, he won't win. If he runs in Supporting Actor, he could win. And people love Ryan Gosling. They love, you know, a ridiculous turn. Why are you making this face at me? I just love podcasting with you. Okay.

I'm just having the time of my life. I just love to talk about films. I think he should run in Supporting Actor because he might win that way. And I would love to have him on the campaign trail, except none of them will be on the campaign trail for a large portion of the season because that is

promotional activity. I think they'll be able to get back to it in the fall. I do think so. But this movie is a very interesting test that historically

male-dominated intellectual property has struggled with. Mm-hmm. That these movies are not respected in that sphere. And in a weird way,

the bigger the movie is, the more I think it may be working against it. Even though I think it obviously behooves the Academy to nominate its great young filmmakers and shining young stars. I mean, Gosling and Margot Robbie are two of the only under 45 movie stars that were like, wow, they're good.

There's also the problem of like comedies don't do well at the Oscars, I think. There are a couple of movies, you know, Greta Gerwig cited Heaven Can Wait as a big influence on this movie. And that is a movie that was nominated for Best Picture, that got, I think, a screenplay nomination, that maybe even had acting nominations, as I think back on it. That is a remake of a great film. And this movie is kind of a sort of like Wizard of Oz, Truman Show kind of remake movie. And so there are these like occasional blips where the comedy, the sort of farcical satire

is recognized. So maybe there's an open-mindedness because Greta is so respected and liked. Yeah. I have my doubts. I do as well.

But I, you know, it's better for us, frankly. It's a lot better for us if Barbie's nominated than if, I don't know, what could possibly take Barbie's place at this time. Transformers, Rise of the Beasts? Maybe.

How would you feel if that was nominated for Best Picture? Would you be happy for me? Sure. Did you see it? No, I didn't. Do you think you'll watch it? You know what, actually. What are you going to do when Knox is super into Transformers? So I was about to tell you that Knox purchased Transformers Rise of the Beast by accident.

Yeah, by accident. For $24.99. Yeah, I'm sure it was by accident. The second film that he's purchased because he finds the Apple TV remote and just clicks, clicks, clicks, clicks, clicks before I can get to him. There's no doubt this is true. My man was looking at the TV and he saw Optimus Prime and he had a primal urge to better understand what's going on with that truck. $24.99 he spent. That's not ideal.

Don't try to expense it because I will reject it. That's on Knox. What if now I watch it because I purchased it? So now I have to root for it to be. If you watch it and make content about it. Didn't this count as content? You didn't watch it yet. Okay. it yet okay you haven't seen it if you watch it and make content about it expense approved okay that is that is that is the bar it's 25 bucks is that the bar for anything or just movies like if

i go do something and then i tell you guys that i did it live on the pod and keep that in no you can't go to the sphere and see you two for five thousand dollars and then I tell you guys that I did it live on the pod and keep that in? No. You can't go to the sphere and see U2 for $5,000 and then say one word about it on a pod. I'm actually going to London. Crazy. That's so crazy. This is content. It's only for films. And frankly, if it's more than $25, it's pretty much impossible to approve. I'm seeing a movie in London.

$25 for Transformers Rise of the Beasts. Beasts are expensive. It's a whole beast war. Really? god damn it what do you mean you'll see when you watch it and we make content about it he purchased another movie and i like watched it happen like i saw it call up what was the click up it was a movie in hindi i don't i don't remember how did he get there because he just presses the button a lot um so and i saw him click like bye you know like and i like it was like a no like racing

towards the remote you know in slow motion but this one i was not present for and i just got like the apple email being like here's your receipt for transformers rise of the beast 25 dollars and i was like shit that's a lot of money i can't wait to hear your thoughts on it on Monday I'm genuinely excited to hear what you think I have to watch 45 Christopher Nolan films instead how many

Transformers films have you seen I saw the one where they go to the moon Dark of the Moon yeah great double feature with Oppenheimer

I think the film suggests that the only reason we got to the moon was because of the Transformers. Yeah. Which is fucking sick.

No blaspheming of that franchise, which is very bad. The reason we got to the moon is because Stanley Kubrick has a camera. That's, well, I don't know.

Maybe that's a follow-up for a Nolan pod. We didn't mention Stanley Kubrick either looming large over both of these films. Oh, the opening of Barbie is really incredibly funny.

But I mean, Oppenheimer again is like a movie that Kubrick would have made. It's very much in the lineage of Nolan attempting to live up to the great Warner Brothers filmmaker Stanley Kubrick. Great news.

There are tickets available for 1 p.m. Oppenheimer Screaming Tomorrow for me and Zach. Whereabouts? One of my favorite movie theaters. Okay. Lamley Glendale. Okay. Let. Okay. Lamley Glendale.

Okay. Let me see if Lamley Glendale is still playing Amanda. They're just showing the DCP, right? You're not seeing, you're not seeing it in 70 there. I don't know. Laser projection.

I guess so. Okay. So I'll look for 70 million. You didn't do what you feel is right. I want to let people know that Lamley Glendale is also still showing the great Italian film, Amanda,

which I recommend. Interesting. Okay. The great Italian film, Amanda, which I recommend. Interesting. Okay. The great Italian film that I told you guys that I bought tickets for, and then Sean changed our recording time and I had to miss it. Damn. Damn. What a shame.

Damn. You had to do your job. Oh, wait. No, they're not. Today's the last day of Amanda at the Lamley. Shit. All right. Well, seek it out wherever you can.

As usual, completely incoherent conclusion. Sean does not want to let us be great. This want to let us be great this is one of the most important episodes of the year and you guys are just talking nonsense I thought I brought it yeah I thought you did too I thought you both did

I want to thank you both especially Bobby Bob had me do spoiler wise you did good there's a couple things that I'm going to take out but that's okay okay alright

thank you to the listeners of this show as I said at the top we'll be back with more Oppenheimer more Barbie it's the biggest thing to happen to movies in years Thank you to the listeners of this show. As I said at the top, we'll be back with more Oppenheimer, more Barbie. It's the biggest thing that's happened to movies in years.

We hope you enjoy these movies. We expect if you will be listening next week, you will have seen them because we will be spoiling them in full. Until then, we'll see you next week. Thank you.