The Big Picture - Ben Affleck and Life After Batman in 2020; Plus: Bill Simmons on 'The Invisible Man' | The Big Picture

Episode Date: March 3, 2020

As his new drama, 'The Way Back,' nears release, Ben Affleck is back in the spotlight and opening up about his struggles with substance misuse. It's the latest in a career that has collided the personal with the artistic in a way few writer-director-actors can claim. Sean and Amanda talk through Affleck's series of comebacks, his utterly unique brand of stardom, and the last decade of self-reflexive roles in movies both mega-successful and widely reviled (1:08). Then, Bill Simmons swings by to pick some nits in the weekend's box office champ, 'The Invisible Man’ (48:51). Hosts: Sean Fennessey and Amanda Dobbins Guest: Bill Simmons Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What's up guys, this is Kelly and welcome to the Ringer Podcast Network. Recently on the Winging It podcast, Vince Carter and Annie Finberg sat down with NBA all-star Kyle Lowry and recording artist Rotimi. This week, 2017 first overall pick Markel Fultz joins the show to talk about living up to expectations and working his way back from injury in the NBA. Make sure to check out Winging It on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Sean Fennessy. I'm Amanda Dobbins. And this is The Big Picture, a conversation show about Ben Affleck. Amanda, last year we talked about the career arc of the Academy Award-winning actor, writer, director, producer, and Hollywood tabloid staple.

Today we're going to do something a little different. Ben Affleck has a new movie called The Way Back and he is attempting a comeback after his comeback. He's sort of mid-comeback, I would say, but he is publicly reckoning with some of the things he has struggled with. And I can't help but notice that his work is really starting to manifest his own personal experiences. You and everybody else, including Ben Affleck, who took a fairly unprecedented for him approach to this press cycle a few weeks ago and did a sit down with the New York Times with Brooks Barnes and was also on Good Morning America with Diane Sawyer and was talking publicly about his struggle with substance abuse

and his pursuit of sobriety. Over time, we've seen Ben Affleck do a lot of things very publicly. The reason for that first comeback is something I think we should sort of briefly go through before we enter into this new decade of Affleck. So, you know, back in the 04, 05, 06 era, post-Goodwill hunting, post-Oscar with Matt, Ben was not only pursuing mainstream movie stardom. He was also pursuing Donnifer Lopez. He sure was. And their relationship, obviously, I don't know, how would you describe it? I mean, it contorted, it kind of distorted our perception of Affleck in some ways. Is that fair? with like the news magazines at the time and were very public about this relationship. And within the kind of celebrity ecosphere, they were the original 2000s like portmanteau couple.

They were the first Bennifer and they kind of coincided with the rise of Us Weekly and a certain type of celebrity coverage that made them just in the white hot center of attention and celebrity in Hollywood. And that certainly affected their work. I mean, they also did obviously make a couple movies together, including the notorious Gigli. And they courted the attention off camera as much as they did on camera. And it all kind of overlapped. And I think it ultimately netted out pretty badly for Affleck. Jennifer Lopez, as we talked about all last year, as the star of Hustlers, as the leading figure in the Super Bowl halftime show, as the partner of Alex Rodriguez, as an incredibly thriving businesswoman, has come out the other side of a relationship like

that and relationships with other very famous people, Sean Puffy Combs, for example, and has remained the kind of center of gravity for the world that she wants to create. Affleck has really ebbed and flowed over time and his career is so fascinating. And that conversation that we had with Rob Harville last year was pretty lighthearted and it was oriented around Triple Frontier because Triple Frontier, because Triple Frontier represented something that he's done a few times, which is a kind of knowing acknowledgement of his weaknesses or of the way that his life has sort of changed and the way that he's seen in the public sphere. Now, some movie stars do this really well, but most don't. Most are working to preserve this immaculate image. But in 2006, Affleck basically started doing this.

He takes a supporting part in this movie called Hollywoodland, which we don't really talk about anymore ever. It does not really have a big reputation in the consciousness of popular movies in the 21st century. But it was a period piece. It was a noir. He played George Reeves, the actor who played Superman on television,

sort of in the latter stages of his glory. George Reeves is himself a tragic figure. And there was like a knowingness, like a self-reflexiveness to what Affleck is doing that I think permeates. Now, I always thought Affleck was like one of the great interviews and one of the great, I've mentioned this before, like DVD commentary guys. Because he would, you know, he famously is kind of drunk on the Armageddon commentary. Yeah, that's the stuff of legends. Making fun of Michael Bay. I think he's just absolutely wonderful on the Kevin Smith DVD commentaries where you can see how much he loves movies and the way he pokes fun at all of

his friends. And he seemed to be somebody who you could know in a way that you don't really know movie stars. And he seemed to say the thing out loud that everyone else was saying about him, which made him more special in a way. Even if he wasn't the most talented or even if he wasn't the most beautiful or the most perfect, he had something meta going on that made him stand out to me. Yeah, he is a very, I think he's a very smart guy. And that intelligence just about movies and about life has always shown both in the performances and in his interviews. And I think especially in the interviews that always lent this quality of like, how did I get here? And how is this all happening? And that meta acknowledging the ridiculousness

and just the general nature of his circumstance that made him relatable. And you're kind of like, oh, okay, he kind of knows what's going on. Yeah, I remember seeing him on Bill Maher over the years. Ben Affleck, very liberal guy. And he would get very, very passionate about his ideas. But then at the end of it, he would always cut it with a little bit of like a self-knowing jab about like being a pathetic Hollywood liberal. And that didn't change the fact that he was a super rich Hollywood liberal. That's true.

Who was trying to tell the world how it ought to be. But at least he knew it. At least he had a sense of humor about it. And that helped him. And I feel like that helped him in some cases in movies. It helped him basically start this rebuild and this re-identification. And after Hollywoodland, and when he starts to rebuild his credibility as a performer, he basically decides that he wants to be a filmmaker so he makes this crime noir with his brother casey called gone baby gone adaptation i believe of a dennis lahane novel very good film not like an oscar-winning film per se not even a huge hit but the kind of project that everybody's like this guy knows what he's doing ben affleck is smart he's in on it exactly same thing and after that he goes up a level and he goes to the town we love the town just a great movie great movie it's been rewatchables

if you have not listened to that it's a that's a tremendous standout performance from ryan rossillo encourage everyone who likes this show to listen to that really good very good episode um and also a kind of classical movie the same way that gone Gone Baby Gone is his down and dirty, like, night move style 70s thriller. The Town is his, like, amped up heist movie. And he seems to be creating these, like, archetypal, if you're a filmmaker, you have to check these boxes. And again, it feels very meta, but the thing that we're getting out of it is worthy. Two years later, we get Argo, which he wrote, directed, produced, and starred in. Argo is an interesting

historical document of popular cinema to me. Can we separate it from the Oscars conversation for a minute? Sure. I mean, I know that we're not supposed to do that on this podcast, and the Oscars are very important, and should Argo have won the Oscar? Blah, blah, blah, whatever. We're putting it aside. Okay. Argo is a pretty good movie. Okay. It's a pretty good movie. Do you think it would have a better reputation if it didn't win Best Picture? Yes. Yeah, I agree. Of course.

That's really the issue is the movie became a culmination of Ben Affleck's comeback. And even though he was snubbed for Best Director, it was an acknowledgement that someone can come from the other side, from the bottom, from the top of the tabloid pit. Yes. To the top of the Hollywood industry. Yes. And I agree. I remember seeing it and feeling like I was completely entertained. And then when it became the front runner for Best Picture, I was like, what is going on here? This is like a perfectly fun movie that doesn't seem very serious. Delightful parent movie, just a classic. It's the holidays and you

got to watch something. And so you take the screener home in my case and watch it with your mother and everyone's happy for once in their lives over Christmas. I really, I think Argo is a good movie. I do too, but I think if there was one thing that was held against it and that I certainly noticed the first time I saw it was a thing that kind of led to what could be deemed a kind of second downfall for Affleck. Are you talking about the shower scene where he's shirtless? Okay, well, let's not hold it against it in the context of the movie or the scene itself. Let Ben Affleck be Ben Affleck is what I have to say. I know that you don't want to hold it against him because he looks good.

He looks, I'm not Ben Affleck, handsome guy. What was he in his late 30s, early 40s when he made that movie? I think so. He looks great. I'm in my late 30s. I look like shit. So it's not about how he looked. It's about the kind of self-love that a certain kind of auteur slash actor, movie star sometimes puts on themselves. Warren Beatty, famous for this.

Warren Beatty knows how to make Warren Beatty look like a million dollars. He knows how to make him look like a schmuck too. But ultimately, he's John Reed in Reds. He's this very important historical person who just happens to have forgotten his shirt. And Affleck fell into that trap in a way. And while it may have netted nice short-term circumstances for you as a viewer, I think people noticed right away and they were like, he goes back. It became a running joke pretty much instantly. It became, you know, before there was film Twitter, there was film blogs and that was a major fixation at Vulture while I was there. Yeah. Everything that he's done since then is pretty

weird. And I think the bulk of this conversation will be about that. You know, every single move he's made has been running toward and then running away from that meta commentary strategy that we're talking about. Bill Simmons in particular, particular i think i remember specifically working with him when when it was announced that ben affleck would take the mantle of batman and the initial reaction was just like dude what the fuck are you doing you just won best picture there's no upside here other than money you probably don't need money and you could probably make money by continuing to make respectable movies. And obviously Argo was a huge hit and The Town was a huge hit.

He had kind of carved out the dream lane. Right. You got to be the star of the best picture winning dramas that are hard to get made. Right. Though, would that lane still exist now in 2020? Even if Ben Affleck had pursued it

at the expense of Batman. It's a good question. And it's a good counterpoint to, I think, a lot of what we're going to say here, which is that maybe he was prescient. Maybe he just knew because he was very close. I remember with Jeff Robinov, who ran Warner Brothers at the time, and Jeff Robinov wanted to put him in every movie. Jeff Robinov got booted out of Warner Brothers a few years later. Maybe that lane would not have been there for him, though, notably The Way Back, which is a movie about a basketball coach who struggles with

addiction directed by Gavin O'Connor, is made by Warner Brothers. Yes, it is. So I think largely we'll focus on that 2010 to 2020 time, mostly the immediate aftermath of Argo. So one thing that really jumped out to me, though, is Ben Affleck has appeared in 17 movies in the last 10 years including i think five this year which is really strange i mean go take a look at like ryan gosling's imdb for example or even jake gyllenhaal's as a counterpoint yes these guys appear in maybe one project a year maybe they would never imagine being in double the amount of that.

And what do you think that says about what Affleck desires? I think there are a couple things going on. The first is about the actor greatness complex that you alluded to with the shirtless scene and I think does explain some of the Batman stuff of just to want to be an actor for most people at some point, and this is ungenerous, maybe it's not even ungenerous, but it does require a belief in your own star power and a belief that you should be in front of people instead, you know, at the expense of everybody else being in front of you,

that you are singular. And I think that that can play out a lot of different ways for a lot of different people. But he's trying a lot of things, I guess, all at once. It's probably unfair to characterize it this way, but the progression from Gone Baby Gone to The Town to Argo to go from behind the camera, not even in front of the camera,

to essentially the lead of The Town, but largely handing that movie on a silver platter to Jeremy Renner, to Argo, in which there is this cadre of incredible character actors, but you never forget that it's Ben Affleck's movie,

you know, is a pretty clear indication of where his head and ego is at. Ambitions. Yes. And that thing that Bill Simmons said when we were working together was, this is like the prove it moment. And this is also the moment where I'm like, I'm going to start making things that my kids can enjoy. You know, I'm like, I've got this family now with Jennifer Garner. And I have to think about this next phase of my career and making

things that they can like and creating a different kind of iconography for myself as a movie star. It seems, at the time, it seemed a little ridiculous. Now, if it happened, it would be like, Jesus Christ, this is so desperate because as we know, like superhero movies are really the only movies that you can create a massive amount of attention for. The problem with this is,

and I want to try to talk about it, even though we don't have to talk about the details of these Zack Snyder superhero movies, is just that these movies are not good and they're not beloved. And so you have basically a four to five year stretch of Ben Affleck's career that had been going about as well as any movie star's career has this decade that basically just died. It died in Wayne Manor. Can I give you a counterpoint, though? Sure. That four to five year is the exception within Ben Affleck's career,

with all respect to Ben Affleck, who his IMDb page is one of the great, strange Hollywood documents. Do you want to isolate a period that you love the most? Do you want to go from 2000 to, I guess, until Gone Baby Gone. Because you have, okay. Why don't we start it right after Good Will Hunting? I mean, right after Good Will Hunting. Look at what he does.

There's so many. Here's the other thing. You said he's made 17 movies in the last 10 years. My guy just works all the time. There's so many of these movies to go through. And we don't have to do the full career arc. But actually, Good Will Hunting, there's some good moments. Armageddon, I'll defend it until I die. I love it. Shakespeare in Love, I think he's quite good in that movie, a movie that I enjoyed. Agree. I didn't realize his

character's name was Ned Allen. Is that a person of note? I think he's one of the made up people. Okay. He's in the company with Shakespeare. I mean, he could have been a real person. I don't really know. Where are you on the Shakespeare multiple author theory? Just while I have you. This is something you've explored in depth, I feel like, on podcasts, and I'm a little out of my element. Yeah, it's actually Juliette Lipman on Jam Session. We talked about it because she has strong opinions and we were talking about it, but... Do you think it would be useful to just play the clip from the movie The Gambler in which Mark Wahlberg explains why Shakespeare was the sole author? Don't spoil Thursday's podcast. Don't spoil Thursday's podcast.

Anyway, he's very good at Shakespeare in Love. 200 Cigarettes, Forces of Nature, Dogma, Boiler Room. I think we're doing okay here. These are mainstream, well-liked movies. And then we're just going to go off a cliff here. Reindeer Games. Not what you want. But in fairness, Reindeer reindeer games on paper directed by

john frankenheimer one of the great thriller directors ever starring a young charlize theron sure you know gary sinise is in it dennis farine is in it it's not good okay bounce i believe this is the one with gwyneth paltrow when he was dating gwyneth paltrow never forget uh it's not good the premise of bounce is pretty rough okay this would be like a charter member of the unwatchables. Okay. Pearl Harbor. Not what you want. Daddy and Them.

I don't know what that is. I don't either. Jay and Silent Bob Strike Back. No thanks. Great movie. Okay, that's fine. Just don't say whatever to me right now. Changing Lanes.

Good movie. The Sum of All Fears. Okay. Where he tries to be Jack Ryan. The Third Wheel. This is when Jenny from the Block happens. And then you got Daredevil, Gigli, Paycheck, Jersey Girl, Surviving Christmas, Man About Town, Clerks 2, Hollywoodland.

So I guess it's really from 2003 to 2006 that things are really dark. I think you could make the case that from 2001 to 2005, he doesn't really make a great movie. Okay, right. Which is tough. And that's a lot of bad movies. Yes. So you're right. He's made a lot of bad movies.

He's been here before. He's been, yes. I mean, that's the thing is he truly is a mountain range of actorly experience. And it's fascinating. I mean, he just doesn't, but he doesn't expire either. You know, he's still, I don't know, maybe it's generational and particularly for people that are our age, from our generation. But he got to us when we were 15 or 13 or 11. Right. And so you just, you have a little small space in your heart for a guy

like this here's what's so interesting about it and it's what's still relevant is that i do think he got to us as much because of stuff outside of the movies and because you invested in him what from from goodwill hunting and from that friendship and that larger story and then you just like believe in affleck and you're going through a lot of this ridiculous stuff in these bad movies because you believe in him. And I think his career has definitely kind of been oriented in response to that. And knowing that people will invest in him if he turns it around or if he gives them something else to hang on to. He also walks this very unusual line between it's okay to mock him and then, oh no, we can't mock him anymore because he has serious problems. I mean, if you look at the range of issues that we know he has contended with, he's obviously

been divorced. He struggled with substance abuse, as you mentioned. He's been fairly candid about these things over the years. He had a Me Too accusation a few years ago based on something that happened, I think, in the late 90s with an MTV VJ. And there are times when it's like, what a joke, this drunk guy with a giant Phoenix back tattoo who can't get away from the poker tables. And then there are other times where our sensitivity to how people struggle with these things comes to the fore.

And it really does feel like, and we're speaking in broad terms, but it feels like culturally it can never really decide what kind of Ben Affleck it wants to have. And the one who's in movies is almost on the side,

is almost secondary, the public persona person. And we don't usually do this on the show, but it's so prevalent and relevant because of the films that he's making. Yes. And especially The Way Back, which is the reason we're's so prevalent and relevant because of the films that he's making

yes and and especially the way back which is the reason we're doing this which he kind of he came out in that new york times piece and in the good morning america interview and is acknowledging it directly because it is a movie about an alcoholic who becomes a basketball coach but But it's so one-to-one with things that we have seen Ben Affleck struggling with on TMZ and now that he's talking about, which I think makes it okay for us to talk about it. It's right there. You can't avoid it. I think even with this film in particular, the original title was The Has-Been, and it's literally about a person who gave up an opportunity at a young age to be part of something special and struggled in the interim. So it's literally about a person who gave up an opportunity at a young age to be part of something special and struggled in the interim. So, like, it's really right there on the surface.

So, you know, our attempt is not to kind of, like, unearth, you know, dredge up the bad things that have happened in Ben Affleck's life. It's more just, like, what happens when someone's personal life collides with their art in a very specific way. and at the risk of overstating things, the way that he picks movies and we'll talk through some of the movies over the last five years, makes me think more of like Philip Roth than it does, you know, even Matt Damon, you know, his close friend and collaborator. You know, the way that Matt Damon organizes his career, he just strikes me as like a very savvy Hollywood actor.

Yeah. He's smart. He's pretty funny. He wants to do cool projects. He wants to win. And maybe if the movie has a big idea, that's great, but it doesn't have to be a reflection of self whereas affleck seems to always be processing himself yeah which is i don't know which i in a way actually do respond to even when you make a list of some of the worst movies that i've ever sat through and i've sat

through a tremendous number of these bad movies because I love Ben Affleck but there is something that draws you in when you know that the person is so invested in it compared to Matt Damon who is the comparison because they were in Good Will Hunting together and they they do make such a neat case study but Damon is like now I will make the Martian and everyone will have a good time at the movies and I love having a good time at the movies as I have said repeatedly on this podcast but there is something really fascinating about Ben Affleck working. It feels like something you shouldn't really be allowed to see sometimes. It does feel a little voyeuristic. Even though he is participating in the voyeurism, sort of.

And to your point about Damon, too, no one ever walks out of The Martian and thinks, is Matt Damon reflecting on how isolated he feels in the world because he's a famous guy and he can't relate to anybody anymore so he feels like he's on Mars? You could credibly, in an egg-headed academic podcast host-y kind of way, draw a conclusion like that. It never even occurred to me. I don't have that relationship with his movies or with him as a public person. Affleck is so different from that, which is fascinating. You know, we started talking about the Batman thing and move very quickly away from it, but it's notable to me that Ben Affleck has been in six superhero movies in his career. Yeah. That's a lot. That is. And we're basically overlooking the Daredevil Electra, which is where he meets his now ex-wife

Jennifer Garner and their relationship blooms. It's really born in the crucible of superhero moviedom before it was this mega thing. And Jon Favreau also a significant participant in that whole project, you may recall. All the little makings of where culture was going starts in those pretty mediocre, if not outright bad, superhero movies. I only remember Daredevil because it's the one with Jennifer Garner and Ben Affleck.

Not a fan of Elektra, the Jennifer Garner vehicle? No, I don't think I saw that one, even though I'm a huge fan of Jennifer Garner. Can't say I could recommend either of those. And then he appears in four DC movies. Yeah, that was tough. I saw a couple of them. He's still lobbying for the release of the Snyder Cut, which I thought was a bit and now have been told is not a bit.

So they really just want... Ben at least really wants the world to see the Snyder Cut. Why? Maybe he's proud of it. I really don't know. I have no feel. And that's part of what's interesting about this conversation is I don't really know what's going on with Ben Affleck.

I know he's trying to publicly reckon, but him still being invested in Batman while ceding the cape and cowl to Robert Pattinson, who's now going to make a Batman movie. The Batman that he was supposed to direct? Yes.

Yeah. There's something weird and unfinished and unsettled about that whole thing. And his role in this moment, which I think, you know, I've said it before in 50 years, we're going to look back

at movie history and be like, this was the time when this was the dominant form of entertainment. And his role in it is like very prominent, but not meaningful. And that's so strange. And his Bruce Wayne has no distinctive qualities. No, it's unmemorable. He's maybe slightly more gray in his hair. Is he the like bulkiest of the Bruce Wayans? There's also that.

It is just like, I don't mean to make this about Ben Affleck's physicality, except to the extent that Ben Affleck has made his performances about his physicality, but that's a choice. That's a real look that he has in those movies. One thing about Affleck, unlike so many of his contemporaries is hearies, is he's a beefy boy.

He's an adult man of significant height and strength at various stages of his life. Yeah, but he really beefed up for the Batman movies. It's really intense. But like, older man beef? Like, in a way, you could argue that having the shortlist shower shower scene in

Argo is really important because then we just have a comparison point for the Batman scenes and you can really see the difference over time nevertheless beefy boy Ben Affleck you're right that that is the distinctive factor for his Batman he was big right and was gray. And he was very dour and grave. Yes. Which most Batman are. But there was none of that like kind of slick smarm of Christian Bale. There was none of that sort of cheesy matinee idol Val Kilmer thing. He didn't have the cleverness and the oddity of Michael Keaton where you felt like you were watching a character for whom there was something sort of mentally wrong. Right.

He didn't really bring any of those traits to it. He just was like kind of a sullen, rich guy. I think it's a little tough because those DC movies are in such opposition to the Marvel movies, which are so witty and aren't we all very clever and having fun and just doing one-liners.

And so I think that the concept of that entire Snyder universe is also sullen. And I think he was a little trapped. You're right. But it's ironic because who's more well-equipped to be a quippy superhero than Ben Affleck? Yeah, it's true. It's sad. I mean, he is one of the quip machines of our time. So you mentioned the New York Times story, which is obviously a personal reckoning. I mean, you know, we watched a few years there where the tattoo and dating Lindsay Shookus, the Saturday Night Live producer and the tabloids and all of that information and, you know, famously a very misbegotten appearance on our Boss Bill Simmons'

show, Any Given Wednesday. A lot of public moments that felt like something was wrong or weird or like he was going through something. You know, he's been shot over a hundred times looking bedraggled holding a Dunkin' Donuts iced coffee. Right. And that became a part of like our relationship to Ben Affleck as much as this series of movies that we'll talk about in the aftermath of Argo that were non-Batman movies. So those movies in full are To the Wonder, which was a Terrence Malick drama that very, very few people saw, but was kind of the originating Ben Affleck is kind of washed

and coping with that document. That was filmed before Argo. Runner Runner, which has been outright rejected by the authors of its screenplay, Brian Koppelman and David Levine, and which is not a good film, starring Ben Affleck as essentially like a powerful man with whom Justin Timberlake needs to do a deal. Right. This was when they were

trying to make Justin Timberlake a movie star. This was post-Social Network. They did that movie about time, and they also did this movie. Timberlake a movie star. Yes. This was post-Social Network. He did that movie about time. And they also did this movie. I believe it was called In Time. Right. And this is, he plays one of the runners in Runner Runner. Okay.

Do you think we'll ever do a Justin Timberlake episode of this show? Do you think he'll ever be worthy? I don't know. I don't think it will be for like Troll World United or whatever. Trolls World Tour? I don't know what it's called. That's what it's called. He's got a hit single out right now.

I heard. I didn't hear. We won't be focusing on that. Gone Girl. Gone Girl is really important. Tremendous movie. You should say what you were just saying to me about Gone Girl. The magic of Gone Girl is that it's probably,

it's a tremendous movie about Ben Affleck because David Fincher bought this bestselling book and was like, I don't want to make this book. of Gone Girl is that it's probably it's a tremendous movie about Ben Affleck because David Fincher bought this bestselling book and was like, I don't want to make this book. I just want to make a movie about Ben Affleck and the celebrity of Ben Affleck, how we understand him. And so like Fincher is kind of doing in Gone Girl a lot of the work that you and I have been trying to do in this podcast. But it doesn't seem like Ben Affleck totally knows that that's happening. Or maybe he does. Do you think that's true?

But I think it's like, I don't know. I kind of think that scene when there's a scene, I can like literally see it in my head. He's kind of like by the shed. And I think all of the press show up and Ben Affleck's like, what is going on? And I think that's him realizing in real time what's happening. Not a performance. Yeah, no. That's verite. Yeah. No, I think that he's a smart guy. So he knows that it's a comment in some sense. And I do think, you know, I don't know Ben Affleck and I don't know anyone who helps him make his choices, but I would guess that he is making all of these decisions at some point with an understanding of how they will perceived,

will be perceived and the conversations like this that will be had. But I do think that Fincher is really Finchering and pushing all the levers in this particular movie in a way that is quite something. And speaking of director's commentaries, if you have not heard David Fincher literally insult Ben Affleck throughout the Gone Girl director's commentary, I would encourage you to do that. I totally, I think that confirms what you're suggesting, but also doesn't totally reveal how much of that was an open conversation between Fincher and Affleck. And Gone Girl, I think if it has a criticism as a film, it's that it kind of shifted attention away from Amazing Amy and kind of what that

archetype was supposed to be and what Gillian, that Gillian Flynn invention that seemed to speak to so many people. And so frankly, so many women who read the book and it did all of a sudden just become this treatise on dying masculinity, which is like very Philip Roth in a way. Yeah, no, it's true. And that's kind of why I think that Affleck isn't totally in on the joke because I think he's signing on

thinking that he's making Gone Girl the book. And then slowly it becomes through the filming clear that it's really about him. The next non-Batman movie that he makes is his first film

with Gavin O'Connor. So Gavin O'Connor, for those of you who are not familiar with his work, is I think a very accomplished director of male melodramas. Probably his best known movie is Miracle, the story of the U.S. Olympic hockey team's miraculous win at the Olympics. He made a movie called Warrior, which was about six or eight years early on the MMA train, about two brothers who eventually have to face each other in the octagon. That is absolutely one of my favorite movies of like the

last 10 years, but also that might be like a shameful opinion and I would have to cope with that. I was completely knocked out by it. I remember being in total tears. He makes like man cry movies. He's really got a touch for tapping into the sensitivities that men are not usually good with now this is not a culture that is very friendly to that idea right now and i think that's great i would just like to know how the accountant fits into that well that that's where i'm going so the accountant i think the accountant is like is also you could look at it as a reflection of a period of time in ben affleck's life where he is like unable to communicate his feelings. And he has no outlet to say like what, what genius and rage he has inside him.

Now, I mean, maybe we should just read the synopsis for the accountant. I mean, it's funny because it's considered one of the weirdest movies of the last 10 years. It's very sneakily a huge hit. For a movie of its kind, we talk all the time about like, why are there no original dramas? Why can't we get some stories that feel like 1997 or 1977? This movie does do that.

The storyline follows Christian Wolfe, a certified public accountant with high-functioning autism who makes his living uncooking the books of criminal and terrorist organizations around the world that are experiencing internal embezzlement. Needless to say, the poster features Ben Affleck holding a high-powered automatic weapon. And there are some crazy shootouts in this movie. This doesn't exactly fall into the Miracle Warrior man-cry space that O'Connor has carved out for himself. It just also leaves out the two most bizarre things of this extremely bizarre movie, which is just the accountant is made in the midst of Ben Affleck as Batman. So he is his giant barrel Batman self as the accountant. And he's like wearing sweater vests that just don't fit.

And those little tiny glasses that parents know parents buy at cvs to use for reading my mom has like 20 pairs of them um and then also he his i guess it's not a romantic relationship i honestly can't remember but it's confounding the woman in the movie is anna kendrick and he's supposed to have some sort of emotional connection with Anna Kendrick speaking of people with sort of dry

skeptical humor and closed off emotional like it's it's really confounding

it's a very strange film now I recall it ending and thinking I liked it and I think a lot of other people did too and I think it has gained a reputation on cable, which so few films can now, but as like kind of a fun, weird lark.

It's very strange, but it's fine. Yeah, I didn't think I had a bad time. It is also kind of everything that you read is like describing the setup of the movie doesn't matter within 10 minutes. And then it's just kind of Ben Affleck is an accountant on doing shootouts. Well, it answers a question that I think some of us have pondered in the past, which is, would Good Will Hunting have been good if Matt Damon and Ben Affleck switched roles? Because a lot of what Ben Affleck's character does is play the genius archetype, but with none of the charm. And part of that is a function of the character, but part of it is a function of Ben Affleck's skills. You know, and there are even moments in Good Will Hunting where Chucky goes and portrays Will Hunting in meetings.

Some of the best parts of the movie. The funniest parts of the movie. Retainer! But he's somehow not credible, even though, like, I don't't know if they took an iq test do you think affleck would win the iq test that's tough i don't know i mean there are different types of intelligence that's true so i think they're both they're both up there before we talk about the last couple of films that he's made let's take a quick break to hear a word from our sponsor today's episode of the big picture is brought to you by Masterclass. Masterclass lets you learn from the best with exclusive access to online classes taught by masters of their craft.

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forced to confront their mortality and pathetic masculinity. We're talking, of course, about Ben Affleck. The final role that he took here is Triple Frontier. Yes. Triple Frontier is a movie that, upon reflection, we both like a lot, and that everybody else that I know in my life has told me I'm a moron for liking. They're morons. Is that how you feel? Yeah, I do. That's a great movie.

We had a great time. The screen caps are fantastic. Yeah, the needle drops. Love the needle drops. What more do you want than four or five really likable men in hot dad gear and metallica playing and then we all learn some lessons about ourselves along the way sounds like an erotic dream to me i'm a big fan of the movie it's amazing how hang dog and sad affleck is in this film and seems to be a reflection. Though again, perhaps we're reading too deeply into these things.

Kind of impossible to know. This is much more of like a straight down the middle kind of film. The thing that came right before that, though, is a movie called Live By Night, which has anyone seen Live By Night? Have you finished Live By Night? I have not. I watched it on a plane. How crazy is that and i i just couldn't do it and i i wanted to because it was also there was a lot of tabloid

interest surrounding it i believe this is when we got our first glimpses of the phoenix tattoo and you know ben affleck is a great director and this was i have liked all three of the prior movies that he directed and there was some anticipation around this, and it just did not work. It really doesn't work. It's okay to have a movie that doesn't work. I'm a little bit more sensitive to this one because I think this is a bigger and more difficult swing.

Period piece, really complicated source material. The cast is not quite right, including Affleck in his lead role. And he's essentially aspiring to the career of, I think, another Warner Brothers mainstay, which is Clint Eastwood as a director. Some movies I star in, some movies I don't. You know, some movies are period pieces. Some movies are kind of traditional, recognizable drama shapes like heist movies or historical dramas. It's okay that this one didn't work, but it did signal that something was amiss, I think.

Yes. And the choices that come after that and, you know, the accountant and triple frontier are all kind of interconnected here. And then we get into modern times. You know, you mentioned the Batman, Matt Reeves' adaptation, which was supposed to be Ben Affleck's adaptation of us, a darker, more detective novel style version of Bruce Wayne. You know, Affleck said,

I showed somebody the Batman script. They said, I think the script is good. I also think you'll drink yourself to death if you go through what you just went through again, which is kind of heartbreaking. Yeah. And it's tough to imagine that working on the Batman movies collided so

deeply with his substance abuse that someone would say that out loud to him. Yes. I don't even know what to do with that. It puts such a pall over everything that he does. And that's one of the upsides is he's created an enormous amount of empathy for himself by being so honest about what he's going through. But also when you're watching a movie now, you're like, Jesus Christ, is this guy going to drink himself to death? Yeah. That's really scary. It is really scary. And I think it's impossible to see the way back or talk about the way back without acknowledging what Ben Affleck has been going through because, you know, it has just been documented and we know so much about it. And so I understand and honestly respect the way that he's been talking about it because there has also been there's been both an openness and an educational aspect to both the interviews in The Times and in Good Morning America that he's been given.

He's been giving and trying to hold accountability for himself and kind of explain what's going on. But it does make you aware of everything that's going on. And I mean, it's serious. It's really serious. And it's challenging to talk about, you know, if maybe we'll talk more about the film next week, maybe not. I think it's, we're in this hazy zone of drawing conclusions based on a person's work, but invariably the person who's making choices is reflecting how they feel in the world and even literally drawing direct conclusions in the press. I mean, you pointed me to this Philadelphia Inquirer piece about Gavin O'Connor and his relationship to Affleck and what he learned about Affleck working with him. And I mean, some of the revel says Affleck was getting furloughs every day and would leave with

a sober buddy and come to meetings with me to work on the script and the character and the basketball part of the movie because there are two trains running in the story. You know, this is uncommon for an extremely famous person to, you know, allow the filmmaker to talk about what's going on with the star in their personal life. I mean, you just never... I talk to filmmakers every week on this show. They never say stuff like that. Ben Affleck has been very much in the public eye and has put a lot of his life since Jennifer Lopez in the public eye.

But it's not like he is on Instagram or Oprah every other month being like, and here's another thing about what's going on with me. He has for all of the public documentation been pretty, I guess, not private, but closed up. He's not, he's not a super candid or confessional type of person. No. And I think a more cynical person and, and maybe like if maybe the guys who host the press box would have a different point of view about something like this. I'm not sure. And I'm not saying that they're cynical. I'm just saying that there's sort of an analysis that we're not doing.

You know, the headline on this New York Times story is Ben Affleck tried to drink away the pain. Now he's trying honesty. And if you were a little bit hard-hearted, you'd be like, look at this guy trying to sell his movie by selling out his personal life. I don't get that impression. I don't think, I guess that is like this cynical spin on what I think is a valid interpretation, which is that Ben Affleck does have to sell this movie. And there is really no way to talk about this and no way to do what he needs to do to sell it and to have people go see it without acknowledging what's going on. Because otherwise, you just have to, you shut down every question.

That's right. And so. It would be so obtuse to not even acknowledge. going on because otherwise you just have to you shut down every question that's right and so it would be so obtuse to not even acknowledge i do think that he is selling a movie which he is probably contractually obligated to do yes but at this at this cost at this height of revelation of personal anyway he's not sharing every detail of his personal life i'm sure there's a lot going on that he's keeping for himself which is his right but it doesn't feel inauthentic and i think that's part of what we're talking about with him, which makes him, he doesn't expire in that way

because there just seems to be something, a veneer of, authenticity is such an ugly word these days, but something kind of real about him and his flaws. Availability, honestly, that you know so much about it. Right. And that it's right there and that he is engaging with it in his work. Do you think he's engaging with it in The Last Thing He Wanted? I don't know what's going on there.

We talked about this movie a little bit at the end of a Sundance podcast. It's a Netflix film that hit the service last week, directed by Dee Rees, starring Anne Hathaway and Affleck, as a similarly accountant-esque or runner-runner-esque figure, which is like a powerful guy who maybe has a lot of information but doesn't feel comfortable sharing all of it and is maybe manipulating everybody around him

but isn't totally comfortable revealing that to us. But I'm not sure if it's odd to interpret this because this movie seems like it's been hacked to bits. That's the thing. He's just not in it enough. I don't feel like I have enough source material to understand what he's trying to do in this particular movie. And I still have not been able to read the book because I have been waiting on a library hold since Sundance. And it's

apparently quite in demand. Wow. Yeah. So you actually are going to you're going to dig in. I'm curious because I this I would just like really like to know what's going on in this movie because I admire pretty much everybody involved. and it just is a real this doesn't make sense so I'm going to try to make some sense of it yeah the live by night corollary applies here too where it's like sometimes it's something just doesn't work and this one just like did not work at all I don't know if it really tells us too much about Affleck other than um maybe he's still fascinated by the idea of preserving mystery even if he's not able to do so I think in all other stages that is something that he's going to be going back and forth with his entire life like where is the where is the line what's the boundary between what i'm willing to make public

and what i have to keep for myself so we mentioned he's got five projects this year two more to come theoretically the first the first these last two we don't know that much about but on paper they feel is great the right word i don't i the first one is deep water uh which we which i mentioned in our most anticipated movies it's directed by uh adrian line it's also starring anna de armas and it's the premise is that they're a married couple who have an open marriage and then are dealing with the fallout of that and they've been filming it in New Orleans. I've seen the set pics. I can't believe this is real.

I'm really excited. And for those of you who are not familiar with Adrian Lyon, of course, the director of Fatal Traction among many other erotic thrillers,

he is really sort of the godfather of the erotic thriller. This is a big American comeback. We'll see. Again, it certainly feels like,

you know, he's pointing directly at his life in a complicated way. Yeah. And then there's the last duel, which is, I find it hard to believe this would be pointing at his life

in any meaningful way, but maybe it's pointing at this long-term creative relationship with Matt Damon. This is a movie directed by Ridley Scott. It's a period piece. It's about a bunch of knights in medieval times. I'm just looking at the set photos.

Some set photos leaked last week and they're just extraordinary. If you haven't seen the photos of these guys in costume for this movie, pause this podcast. It's like the frog who's a sheriff. I just can't not look at them with a laugh. Jesus Christ.

What's happening to Matt Damon's pants and the beard? Listen, I like all of these people. Hold it together. I feel like Ridley Scott is not someone that we didn't talk enough about him on the podcast with Sam Esmail. I respect Ridley Scott. I just, I don't know what's happening here. I don't know what's happening here. I don't know what's happening here. I mean, the premise of the movie too is really kind of tough.

I mean, former best friends, Jean and Jacques, are ordered to fight to the death after Jean accuses Jacques of raping his wife in 14th century France. Now, Matt Damon plays Jean and Adam Driver plays Jacques. Ben Affleck plays a character who does not have a name at the moment. This movie also stars Jodie Comer.

I don't... What's happening? I don't know. That's why you told me to get it together. So I closed tab on the photos. That's all I can say. I don't know. Ben and Matt haven't been in a movie together, I think, since one of the View Askew Universe Kevin Smith movies. I thought we were going to make it through this podcast without talking about that. Why are you so mad about those movies? They're fine. I also, I just trust Adam Driver. I think he has good taste. He's kind of the opposite of Ben Affleck in terms of picking movies that work with great directors. That's a good point.

So all of these people together, it should work. And then I look at the wig that Ben Affleck is wearing this platinum wig and I don't know what to say do you think it would be weird to do more Affleck podcasts do you think that there's an appetite for continued conversation about like really one of the greatest and most confounding movie stars of the last 30 years I mean yes because he encapsulates so much of what it is meant to be in movies and a movie star and celebrity which is a major part of being a movie star whether you like it or not um of our time is he the singular white guy of fame of this generation maybe of fame which is distinct from from certainly from

being an actor or from hollywood-esque Do you think that that ultimately rankles him? I'm sure it does. I'm sure that that is part of the... I'm sure he's working through it. And that's the reason that he's always trying to tangle with it and rewrite it. And like, you know, maybe if I do this instead, then people will understand me this way. It is... He is trying to make peace with it in some way, I would say.

I agree. And that's part of why he's the subject here and part of why he continues to be an object of fascination. Most actors are so boring. Yeah. They're so boring. And partially, maybe that's because they're reserved or they don't want to reveal their personal life.

Partially, just because they don't have anything else going on. All they have going on is themselves and everything in their world. Affleck seems to be a human being. And so we look at him with a kind of respect, confusion, a kind of like a weird warmth for his foibles. Yes. And this seems to be an interesting time where he's leaning into some of that stuff.

You know, Amanda, you'll be back later this week. Me, you, and maybe the Frog Sheriff himself, Chris Ryan. We're going to talk about a different actor of this generation who I think we know less and less about as time goes on. Yeah. It's really kind of a polar opposite in a lot of ways in terms of narrative and also movie quality when you really go movie by movie. I think we'll play that game as well. We're talking, of course, about Mark Wahlberg, who's in a Netflix film called Spencer Confidential later this week.

Amanda, thanks for plunging into the depths of Affleck. Thank you, Sean. And thank you about Affleck. I'm joined by a special guest here on The Big Picture, Bill Simmons. What's up, man? Well, we were supposed to talk about Invisible Man, but I heard you talking about Affleck. You got some thoughts? It's interesting to think about him in the context of,

what did you say say like the biggest white star of the past 15 years biggest famous white guy I mean he's up there right so it starts with Good Will Hunting in 97 but then the J-Lo thing pushes it to another level then he has the comeback story

which crests in 12, 13, 14 and then Batman I cited your theory about Batman Then he has the comeback story, which crests in 12, 13, 14. And then Batman. I cited your theory about Batman, which we've talked about before, about why he wanted to do it. I think he's always been very aware of what was happening with him, career-wise, life-wise.

And the choices he made were very deliberate in a lot of ways, which is what was so funny when the compass would just go sideways. You know, you look at some, like, after Good Will Hunting, he's just grabbing paychecks, he's super famous, he's dating whoever, he never thinks that's going to happen. Then the Gigli, that era, all the way through the Superman movie, it just seems like his star is going to fade, and he's going to be like the Andrew Ridgely to Damon's George Michael. Absolutely. That's what we were saying. I mean, it's amazing how many

not good movies he made between 01 and 06 and then still managed to turn the ship around. I mean, it's crazy that he just, and it seems like he did it by sheer force of will. He's like, I'm going to do Hollywood land and then I'm gonna start directing. And he reconfigures everything. I mean, the theory that we were promoting was essentially that everything that he does is like an act of self-awareness. Like he is one of the smartest and most self-aware movie stars we've ever had. And he's willing to put himself out there in the movies that he makes. You know him a little better than we do. I don't know. Do you think that that's right? I think there's a quest for respect that started from the moment SNL pigeonholed him as the dumb guy and Damon as the smart guy.

That's right. And from the moment that happened, every decision he's made that's been like baked in there a tiny bit. He always struck me. Because I think he's a really smart guy. He always struck me as the smarter guy, but just a little bit different and a little bit maybe more interested in some of the glamorous parts of being famous. Whereas Damon doesn't seem as interested in that stuff. Well, he definitely has way more demons. Matt Damon, no demons. Yes. uh Affleck lots of demons and you

know I remember the Project Greenlight show which was 0304 and he comes in one of those episodes and he just is a maniac yeah and this was right during the height of when he really had his first substance battle and I was almost surprised they put it on TV because he's just wired. But being exposed like that is part of why I like him. Yeah. You know, like most movie stars don't give you that. So I love it. I mean, he's working a lot right now.

He's making a lot of movies. Well, I think you have to because when your life kind of goes sideways, which it definitely did for him the last couple of years, you know, I think the other thing is he, you know, he's got multiple kids and a couple of those kids are at the age where you can read about yourself or read about your dad, you know, and if your dad's having issues, you just Google and 95 terrible things come up and the kids are going to school and the kids know about it and things like that. And I think when you're a parent and you know that's happening, that pushes it to another level. Whatever demons you have going on,

now that you know it's affecting your kids, it makes you feel a thousand times worse. If it's just you, ultimately like whatever. But when you're affecting your kids with your problems, that's a whole other level. And the way he's talked about The Way Back, which I haven't seen yet, he said it was his favorite movie that he's ever done.

Now, is that Hollywood PR bullshit? I don't know. But he's also not the kind of person who says that. Yeah, and he's also made a lot of great projects, and he's been in charge of a lot of great projects. I mean, this is like an Academy Award-winning guy. He's a very, very successful person who's made probably somewhere between five and ten movies that we'll just love forever

yeah which is unique i mean most people can't claim that and yet i think some people i think even we might be concerned trolling a little bit on the show here about like whether or not he'll be more remembered for this fame aspect and what we know about him versus what we know about somebody like Damon, which is like virtually nothing. The thing is though, it's, it's almost like sports.

You're always as good as what you just did. You know, it's not that even in my career, you realize like nobody cares what you did a year ago or two years ago or five years ago. They care about what you're doing. And. Can't lie on the book of basketball coattails.

Yeah. Write another one. You always have the chance to reset your legacy in the moment with one good project brad pitt who was kicked to the side and was done and really if you were you were selling your brad pitt stock three years ago after the stuff in the plane with his family and that was it it was like oh this guy's canceled there's no way and now look four years later he's got more juice than he's ever had. Good project, good project, good project.

Makes three or four good movies, and then all of a sudden people don't care. It's fascinating. I mean, the same will be true for Affleck. Yeah. Well, let's talk about a movie that you liked more than I did. So you never ask me to come on the show. You never ask me to complain about a movie. It's your show.

I don't ask me. I already have multiple podcasts to talk about things. That's true. But this must mean you have some serious thoughts about The Invisible Man. We talked about it a little bit last week. It's obviously a remake of the 1930s film. You did point out a few things to me when we were talking about it that I hadn't considered. So what's your general take on the movie?

Well, as you know, I love horror movies more than anyone else in the world, except for my son, who loves them the most. Who's seen them, who's seen them, who's seen every horror movie at this point and who can guess what's going to happen halfway through any of these movies. I thought the first, I'm going to say three fourths of this movie was not quite Pantheon stuff, but really high level. Like if you talk about the best horror movies of the last 15 years at about the hour 20 mark I was like wow this is going to be

like a potential all-timer. And then I just thought the wheels came off the last 20 minutes. So we're going to have to do some spoilers. This is a major spoiler conversation. If you haven't seen

The Invisible Man turn the show off. Yeah, we're good. I'm not going to take it personally because we're going to spoil the living shit out of the movie. Or come back after you've seen it. It was a big hit. It was the number one movie this weekend. A lot not going to take it personally because we're going to spoil the living shit out of the movie. Or come back after you've seen it. It was a big hit.

It was the number one movie this weekend. A lot of people have seen it. It's definitely the big horror hit of the last four or five months. Actually, before they turn it off, we should talk about that quickly. Why was this a big hit? Okay. Blumhouse.

Big part of it. Great trailer. Yep. Overqualified horror actress. Somebody who's not normally in a horror movie. Elizabeth Moss, yes. And that's really it? Easy to understand premise.

Yeah. Okay, there's four things. So we talk about IP and all that stuff on the show all the time. It's not hard to know what you're getting when you go to a movie

called The Invisible Man. So I think that that's a big part of it. Like Blumhouse put a movie out a couple weeks ago called Fantasy Island. It was like a remake. Oh, that came out?

It came out. It's not very good. That was easy to understand, but it wasn't marketed as well. Didn't have as good a trailer and it's not as good a movie. So it was harder to sell it. This one, right release date, right actor, right studio, right pitch. And to the director is very good. Lee Winnell. That's a big part of it too. It makes me wonder with horror movies, why they don't go with the overqualified actor because i i thought that was one of the reasons midsummer worked because uh florence bue yeah i completely over qualified to be in that movie so sometimes when they do that that leads to the best horror movies but i thought it was great here's where it fell apart though so she finds a new identity leaves

her husband behind oh it turns out he committed suicide. She's fine. And everything's going to be fine now. She doesn't doubt this for a minute, that this guy who's the smartest guy in the world and this world-class scientist who can do all these things and fake all these realities might have faked his death. Never occurs to her. She seems traumatized by the experience.

We can say that, right? That's fair. She's obviously upset. I don't know if she's really analyzing whether or not this guy is going to come back from the dead. All she knows is he has this basement that's like Batman's cave. Truly. And she's seen one photo of him allegedly with blood coming out of his arm. She's like, oh, yeah, I'm good.

He's definitely dead. Doesn't doubt it for a second. So she's the dumbest person alive. So then all the stuff starts happening to her and then she ends up in the hospital

and she's punched I don't know if we needed her punching her 15 year old roommate where she didn't punch her the ghost

the invisible man did but did we really need to see a 15 year old girl get belted in the face I'm gonna say no it wasn't great might have had her like hitting the shoulder.

Tough beat for Storm Reid, the young actress. So she's killed 20 people at this point. And then finally turns the tables on the invisible man. She figures out what's going on. He's flashing, so you kind of see her. She ends up shooting him. All of a sudden, it's like all charges have been dropped. How many murders? 20 that she was directly involved with, so you kind of see her, she ends up shooting him. All of a sudden, it's like all charges have been dropped.

How many murders? 20? That she was directly involved with, including somebody's neck getting slit? Yes. Well, we should point out that her ex-boyfriend's brother, who is also the lawyer for his estate, is revealed to have been, at least at the end of the movie,

in the suit. And when she shoots the Invisible Man and kills him the the brother is in the suit i called that 35 minutes in the movie second meeting leaned over my wife and was like that's the guy who's doing this yes and when they go to the invisible man's house they find out that actually her ex-boyfriend who was thought to have been dead has been sealed inside of a wall in his own house by his brother who's gone mad and become the invisible man. Now that's the story that is told to all the characters and to the audience. But really we know Elizabeth Moss knows what's up. She's not convinced it's the brother. She thinks he's still, it's him. It's her ex who's been doing everything. Let's talk about the rationale behind that. You could just kill your brother.

Yeah. And then use the invisible man suit to haunt Elizabeth Moss and steal her money and then everything gets left to you. Or trap him in the wall of the basement, keep him alive for no reason at all, and then use the suit anyway. I'm going to say you just killed the brother. Let me ask you this. How did he get sealed inside the wall? Did the brother do it? Well, we'm going to say you just killed the brother. Let me ask you this. How did he get sealed inside the wall? Did the brother do it? Well, we were meant to think that this guy was the smartest guy in the world. He could build an invisible man suit. Pretty sure he could trap himself in a wall.

He could put some sheetrock up. Yeah. Okay. So anyway, so now it's fine. All charges dropped against Elizabeth Moss. It was like, hey, those 20 murders we had you pinned for, we're good. The defense rests. It was definitely this brother.

She realizes the guy's still alive. He's in the wall. This guy just gets to live his normal life again. He's just ordering from Postmates. It's like, hey, you coming over? I got you some steak and some sushi. That steak looked so good in the movie. Yeah.

I didn't know what you wanted. The last time I saw you, I was punching my fist through a windshield as you were trying to escape. Sushi? It's good. You like the crab roll, right? Sure. Didn't understand what was happening there. She goes over there.

He's not suspicious at all that she might be wired or whatever. Last time, she plans this elaborate escape to get away from them. Then he's just showing up for dinner. Hey, man, yeah, things got weird with us. be wired or whatever. Last time she plans this elaborate escape to get away from them. Then he's just showing up for dinner. Hey man, yeah, things got weird with us. Yeah. Remember I escaped at four in the morning. You tried to punch through a windshield to kill me. And then your brother wore an invisible man suit and he tortured me. And, but man, that was crazy. Can't believe we went through all that. Okay. So there's one counter to everything that you've just outlined not it doesn't resolve all the problems But this is a guy who is a mad scientist who designed an invisible man suit in his house who also

Beat up his girlfriend for years Who's obviously a sociopath and like a deranged killer Yeah, so anything he does in the room cannot be accounted for. Like him acting normal when she comes back and hoping that things are going to be fine. He's nuts. He's nuts and evil. So who knows? However, the Postmates thing is a sticking point. And I hadn't thought of this until you said this to me. The idea that this guy could just pick up his life again and resume. They're not investigating him. No charges. They're not sure that he didn't commit any of the 20 murders, that he didn't trade the suit with his brother. No. His charges. It's bizarre. They're not sure that he didn't commit any of the 20 murders,

that he didn't trade the suit with his brother. No. His brother was a sociopath. Meanwhile, he has this history of domestic violence. Yes. How did they stage the photo where it looked like he was dead? Yeah. Obviously, he was a mob man.

Did he participate in that? Exactly. They don't investigate that. Hey, why'd you fake your death? They yada yada'd the last 10 minutes. And then some. And then she's like, i gotta go to the bathroom i don't know i my wife when she goes to the bathroom it's at least three minutes just

taking off the jeans and all that stuff she goes to the bathroom oh just the whole process she goes to the bathroom it's like i'm gonna whip on my invisible man suit murder this guy disappear quickly all my clothes are back on. I'm good. Happened in like 40 seconds. Well, maybe the movie may have lapsed time more quickly than it actually did. When Lee Winnell was on the show. Lapsed time.

He got cut. His neck was, he bled to death and fell over and then she showed up. Maybe she knew her way around the invisible suit. I don't know. Putting that thing on like, like she's changing, like a pit crew is changing NASCAR. It's like, oh,

I put the suit on in 13 seconds. Took it off in 12. So the thing about that scene is, you might think of it differently. Maybe not, you might not even like it very much, but Lee Whannell said the movie that he probably rewatched the most when he was making it was Gone Girl.

And that's obviously lifted by the seven throat cuts in this movie the throat cut with Rosamund Pike in Neil Patrick Harris' house and also the scheme that she pulls off

in Neil Patrick Harris' house where there's a part of the house where the camera can't see what she's up to she moves in and out of the frame and she pretends

as if she's been hurt the same way Elizabeth Moss moves in and out of the frame to make sure that she can frame the guy and kill him effectively.

So he ripped off Gone Girl. That makes me feel worse. Well, he was inspired. I already felt bad. He was inspired by it. I don't know. How many horror movies do you walk out of at the end

and think, nailed it? I'm not done nitpicking. Okay. Go ahead. Guy bleeds to death. Yeah. Why is her friend the cop outside he's escorting her because audio taping everything thinks that this is just going to be an attempt

to get him on the record admitting to what he did so then she walks out yep she's like we're good right he goes into the house he's gonna call i guess. I guess he's going to call it in. Yep. Hey, we have another Postmates order gone bad. I have a victim who's bled to death. The sushi's still good if you guys want to take that home. Death by Kobe beef. Yeah, he's good. And then she's just off with the suit.

He looks down and he sees the suit. She's completely lost her mind at this point. This cop who's allegedly out there to protect us isn't like, hey, why don't you leave the suit? Or maybe how about you give me the suit? I'll get rid of it. No, we're setting up Invisible Man, the sequel. It's going to be Invisible Woman. That's correct.

I think you know that. Let me pitch you a hypothetical. Yeah. Chris Ryan betrays me. It's the highest betrayal of all time. He's- Again? He's been brainwashing me and gaslighting

me for years. All under the auspices of this is what Bill wants, Sean. You got to do it. This is what Bill wants. I find out that I've been gaslit. I get the invisible man suit. I take care of Chris, knock him out. You see the bag with the invisible man suit in my office. You call the cops? Or do you acknowledge that I've done a great deed by... By killing Chris Ryan? Killing Chris Ryan. This is your chance. Because that's what Aldous Hodge has to do. He has to decide in the moment,

protect my friend or send her away for life. Fair. Fair. This maybe will be in this situation five years from now when Chris is running Spotify. When he's the new CEO. You heard it here first. Bill Simmons says, if I want to kill Chris Ryan, I am allowed. Elizabeth Moss, I'm really glad she did a horror movie.

And it made me think like, now who are the next five people? Because we, Emily Blunt, didn't expect her to do a horror movie. She's made me think like, now who are the next five people? Because we, Emily Blunt, didn't expect her to do a horror movie. She's really good in Quiet Place. Yes. Elizabeth Moss,

excellent. Could this be the new market inefficiency for good actresses in that 25 to 35 range? Yes. Brie Larson next? Although,

I guess she made The Room. Nah, but that's not really horror. But what it does is, it deprives us of a chance to meet new actors that we love because that's where

most of them get their start is in horror movies like this. So if these parts become more prestigious and a more clear way to become famous, which, you know, Elizabeth Moss was already

very famous, but never a movie star. She'd never really been the lead of a movie that opened big at the box office. And so now, if actors and actresses

start leaning into this lane, is that bad? Because then we don't get the next Jamie Lee Curtis. We don't know. I would say for every Jamie Lee Curtis, we've had a hundred

Camila Bells. Oh, wow. Sad. You just threw her right under the bus. Wow. You just put the invisible man suit on and tortured her.

Look at her IMDb. I have one more thing. You're going to get uncomfortable. Oh, God. How did she get pregnant? They kind of insinuated there was some invisible man.

Invisible dick? Is that what you're saying? There was some invisible... She was drugged maybe or like enough time had passed I felt like there was... My gut on that was that she got pregnant before.

I don't know how. My read on it was that she got pregnant before he I don't know how. My read on it was that she got pregnant before he died. Maybe that was wrong. You think that maybe she was like artificially inseminated while he was invisible? I don't know. It just kind of threw it out, and it seemed like there was more going on, but I didn't know if I had had too many popcorn and M&Ms and my brain wasn't working as well.

Elizabeth Moss is here. Let's bring her in. Elizabeth! Here are the takes from the Simmons family. Elizabeth Moss is here. Let's bring her in. Elizabeth! Here are the takes from the Simmons family. My wife enjoyed it. My daughter loved it because she loves every movie.

She's, if you're wondering when the cinema score is always an A+, it's because America is filled with my daughter. My daughter's like, oh, it wasn't that bad.

A+. My son thought it sucked. He's like, I never want to see it again. I can't believe they screwed up the ending. He's out. So did he bring a lot of these issues to your attention? We talked about it when we left.

We were like, what the hell? How did the mad scientist just was back in the house? And then the other thing, she goes over before she knows that the guy's still alive. She goes over to the house to see what's going on in the basement. The dog's still there. It was like, Oh, Fido.

What was the dog's name? I don't think it was Fido. Whatever. I don't know. Invisi. Luchi, whatever his name was. Hey,

good to see you old friend. Just hanging out in the house by himself. The dog. Who is there? Who's taking care of him? Well, I think what we are meant to believe after having seen the whole movie is that the brother was living in the house

taking care of the dog while the other brother was sealed inside the house. That's my, now, who knows? Maybe they just abandoned the dog. Why wasn't she suspicious though? She's like, why is the dog still here? There are no people. I don't know.

It's an empty house with a dog in it, and it doesn't smell like shit and piss. So let me ask you this. If you think that the lead character in a horror movie is a moron, and it seems to think you think- Well, no one's a bigger moron than Jamie Lee Curtis in Halloween. I mean, she drops the knife next to the guy who's still alive. That's what I was going to say.

We don't usually hold that against our horror movie characters because we expect they're in the middle. She's literally being tortured by an invisible man. Yeah. I mean, that would be a bit confusing, don't you think? Ben Simmons said that this movie did not hold a candle to one of his favorites, the One a Stranger

Calls remake with Camilla Bell, which we watch every time it's on cable. Incredible use of a house, and I thought the beginning of Invisible Man did a nice job with the house that when she's trying

to escape, this definitely built on a soundstage couldn't actually be a real house. I love when I get to mix two of my favorite things,

horror and high-end real estate are two of my passions, as you know. And yet you didn't love Parasite. Isn't that crazy? No, I just don't. I don't.

I just wasn't in the mood to read when I saw it. I'm not exploring that. I just wanted to sit there and watch a movie. I wasn't prepared to do work. And same thing when you could serve me a $200 lobster, but if I have to crack the stuff myself, I just resent it. This is a bad take. Bring me my own lobster. I'll see Parasite. You have many good takes. This is a bad take. Bring me my own lobster. I'll see Parasite.

You have many good takes. This is not one of them. Listen, Parasite's a very good movie. We're all going to feel dumb five years from now when we remember it won the Oscar. Wow. Okay.

High-end real estate is very good. That also clearly is very inspired by Gone Girl. You know that house? If you take horror and high-end real estate and an overqualified actress, you're going to have a recipe for success.

And you know who realizes that? Jason Blum. Well, even though you shit on this movie for 10 minutes, you couldn't have said it any better than I did. I thoroughly enjoyed it. I'll watch it five more times. Will you see The Invisible Woman? Yeah.

Yeah. I would too. I'm into it. I like the director. I like the actor. I like the movie. This is the least critical I've been in a movie on this podcast in years.

There you go. Bill, thank you so much for doing this. What a pleasure. Thank you, of course, to Amanda Dobbins and thank you to Bill Simmons. Please stay tuned

to The Big Picture later this week. Chris Ryan will return to the show joining Amanda and I to talk about our top five favorite Mark Wahlberg movies. See you then.