The Big Picture - Best Picture Power Rankings and Brutal Honesty About ‘The Brutalist’

Episode Date: January 31, 2025

Sean and Amanda dig into ‘The Brutalist’ (with spoilers!)—the text, the reception, the performances, the score, its awards chances, its lasting presence in the American film canon, and everything in between (1:00). Then, they’re joined by Joanna Robinson to weigh in on the Best Picture race and rank all 10 films nominated for the award based on their current chances to win the race (1:31:00). Hosts: Sean Fennessey and Amanda Dobbins Guest: Joanna Robinson Senior Producer: Bobby Wagner Video Producer: Jack Sanders Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, it's Brian Curtis from The Ringer, and I want to tell you about the Press Box podcast. The Press Box is a podcast for anybody who likes news, whether it's about sports or politics or pop culture, and wants to understand how that news really gets made. We have new shows every Monday and Thursday. We have long interviews with everyone from John Crackauer to Joe Buck. Your social media feeds are bursting with information every day. Let us help you sort it out. Join us on the Press Box.

I'm Sean Fennessy. I'm Amanda Dobbins. And this is the Big Picture Right Convers conversation show about brutal boys and brutal girls. Today is the day. It's a very important day on the Big Picture. Certainly will be best picture power ranking with our friend Joanne Robinson. We may talk a little bit about Nosferatu, but most importantly, Amanda is here to talk about The Brutalist.

Ba-da-da-da! We're back. So... I want you to start singing the disco remix. Ba-da-da-da. N-s-n-s-n-s-n-s-n-s-na-na-na. Honestly, it's a great score. The world has been waiting, honestly, months to hear you talk about this movie.

I've been waiting months. This episode, we have a few things on the plate. We're gonna talk about The Brutalist at last. You have seen the film, you're ready to talk about it. You saw Nosfratu. You'll share some thoughts about that movie. And then Joanna Robinson will join us, as she has throughout this season, to help us rank the best picture contenders.

And now that we have 10 nominees, and we have quite a few scandals emerging, minute by minute. People are going for it. Yes, there is, we are in a tax season in the Academy Awards. And so we'll set the table for where things stand right now. And honestly, a fascinating best picture race, probably the most interesting one we've had since we started doing this.

And there's a lot of math that can be done, and there's also a lot of emotions that can be parsed. So we'll dig into that with Joe after we have our conversation about these two films. So The Brutalist, I feel like we're working in reverse here because I had a big long conversation with Adam Naiman about the movie at the end of December. Yes. Great conversation.

Thanks. And I love that conversation too. A lot of that conversation too. A lot of that conversation, a lot of it was about the text and a lot of it was extra textual. Yes. You know, it was about the marketing strategy of the movie and how the movie would be received and what we should...

How much of the film should we focus on and how much of the apparatus of selling a movie like this should we focus on? Yes. Which I love and you know, you and I always talk about that stuff too, but maybe at the expense a little bit of talking about the movie. I do think it's essential to the discussion of the film and you guys were right to talk about it because it was such a phenomenon. And how it became such a phenomenon is somewhat about the movie and also somewhat about like the moment in film culture that we are in and the marketing and A24 and Brady Corbett's very specific

campaign and the narratives that he has constructed and given in interviews, which I have to be honest, I only know about from the conversation that you did with Adam. And I did not listen to either interview that you did afterwards. Oh, interesting, okay. Because I would like to have a conversation about the text as much as possible.

And I certainly avoided it beforehand because I was like, I don't want spoilers. And I do also know it was already vibrating on a frequency that annoys me sometimes. And so I was like, I'm just not going to do it and I'm going to go and I'm going to see the film and we'll talk about the film. So I'm really excited to do that, but that's, that's what I want to do. That's what we're here to do.

So I ask you, what did you think of the film, The Brutalist? I mean, it's remarkable. It has been living rent-free in my head since I saw it. And I came home, my husband still hasn't seen it, and I was like, can you go see it? When can you see it? I've been sending him showtimes and consulting on his calendar to be like, because I want to talk with him about it. And I have been looking forward to this,

because I want to talk with him about it. And I have been looking forward to this because I want to talk with you about it. Um, I... It is, it is an absolute achievement. Does it all work? I really don't know. And I really want to talk with you about that. And I don't mean that in like a bad faith way or that I'm annoyed at, you know, some of the speeches about whatever.

I just, I had a know, some of the speeches about whatever. I just, I had a reaction walking out of the movie. I have been thinking about it since I watched it again on a screener. No one judged me. Like I saw it for the first time at the Vista. You did your work. Like get off my dick. I did what I was supposed to do, but I, I, like, I have, I have questions. I have questions about what you think about it.

And that in its way is like this sign of great art, right? But I have questions, I have questions about what you think about it. And that, in its way, is like this sign of great art, right? Absolutely. So it totally holds up in that sense. We have a brutal girl. No, but I'm not a brutal girl. And I also think that there are... We haven't even defined what that means.

Yes, I think I invented it. So, like, I do honestly think that maybe I coined... Sure. ...brutalist boys, like, in September. I don't remember who said it first. But, I mean, we did together. And I was like, we have to talk about these guys on the internet, posting about their stuff.

And women, I have been getting IGDMs from many women who say, Sean, I want you to know, I stand with you in this movie. Yeah, and allow me to say to our dear friend, Alex Ross Perry, who I love so much, I have to be honest, there was a line in the women's room at intermission at the Vista. Oh, no!

There was. I mean, I got there first because I was like, I really need to pee, so I... Yeah, and you saw it like three weeks after release. Like it was still, you saw the Vista? Yeah. Okay. I did. I think I saw it maybe on like the last week of their run.

Yeah. So let's just do like the arc of the movies release a little bit because, um, we started doing the Brutalist Boys bit, which is very funny. And in the tradition of a lot of the, it's so over, we're so back stuff that we do here on the show. And then I saw the movie and I was like, this is not a good movie to have this bit about. Because this is a very complicated movie

that, as I said on the last episode, is very much about pain and whose pain it is we can discuss and debate and who has the right to that pain. But it is a very, very sincere movie. There's nothing smarmy or like, it may self self-inflated, but it's, it's not, it's not modern. You know, it is, it is trying to be a kind of like straight faced sincere portrayal of a particular state of mind. And it is using deeply traumatic history to convey that feeling. So it's a little weird to be like, well, we're in a cult together of this film. So it's a little weird to be like, we're in a cult together of this film.

But, and it has, I guess, since the canisters, you know, rolled their way from Venice to New York to your loving arms. And since, and again, like I really tried not to engage with this because I do think it would like turn me against the movie. But I have become aware of the narrative that Brady Corbett has spent embracing in interviews

of like, this is about the challenges of filmmaking. And it's about many things, but one of, and it's, and I think the movement has leaned into that. Like if I'm a, if I'm a cinema guy, I love canisters. I love VistaVision. I love Final Cut for directors. By the way, I also like all of those things. Um, you know...

You know what's much more important than all those things, which is something that he's also talked about, is a hard line on creativity and artistic boldness. Like forget about the canister, forget about the tech. Yeah, but here's the thing. Like we all, those of us who live in Los Angeles, all saw the lines out the door at the Vista. I was very stressed out about like,

am I gonna be able to get a seat? Like, do I have to wait an extra 30 minutes in line? There was like a little mini online phenomenon about it. And then I think that was external and a little bit about like being part of a film culture. Because that's from people who hadn't seen the movie. But how is that any different from Marvel or any other kind of movie? It's not, but it's like, in fact, it is very similar to Marvel.

And that's cool, but... Is it not similar to Nancy Meyers? Uh, well... Yeah, we're not brutal boys. You know, we're not Nancy Meyers boys. We're not genderizing this conversation. I just mean, like, in terms of having a passion for a certain kind of thing and defining yourself by the culture you like, it can lead to conversations

with annoying guys. I won't deny that. I mean, sure, that's true. I guess Nancy Meyers does not lead to as many conversations with annoying guys. I won't deny that. I mean, sure, that's true. I guess Nancy Meyers does not lead to as many conversations with annoying guys. That's true. One of many things that I- It's usually just me. One of many things I really love about her.

But anyway, just to the point of like brutal boys in the sense that this movie was a phenomenon. Even like before people had seen it, I think it does crystallize that. In film culture. But you're right. Then you see the movie But you're right, then you see the movie and you're like, oh, okay, this is a lot. Yeah, so let's talk about it.

Cause I do wanna circle back to some of the directorial intent that you're talking about and the way to market a movie. It reminded me of another movie that we talked about and disagreed about in 2024 that we can go back to. But the movie itself, we're gonna spoil this movie. Horizon part one. That isn't the movie I, we're gonna spoil this movie. Horizon part one.

That isn't the movie I'm thinking of. I won't even tell you the title, so I'll keep you on your toes. You know, anyone who hasn't had a chance to see it, we necessarily have to get into the story. Listen, this is full spoilers. Yes. Anyone who tweets at me being like, you spoiled part of this movie, you're automatic block. Okay. Let me just, or tweets or, you know, blue skies or Instagrams or whatever, like publicly

shamed. Beers, this is a spoiler one, okay? Listen, do the siren, Bobby. I've really gotten into the siren as a listener of the big picture, you know? Just been catching up. Thank you. Really good stuff, Bob. I'm doing fine work here, everything.

I try. There, I did my own. Maybe that should be the new siren. The siren calls. And then me yelling, I will block you. ["Siren 2.0," by The Bane of the Opera playing over speakerphone speakerphone speakerphone speakerphone speakerphone speakerphone speakerphone speakerphone, what else do you want us to do? I'm not gonna negotiate the spoiler conversation with the public at large. I have sold like vast swaths of my personal life for content on this podcast and other ones,

but like sometimes we do have to talk about the films. And we are about to right now. Now one thing that we did that's different from usual episodes, I usually put the outline together and then you add notes to the outline. This time around, I shared you what I had with Adam, but you did your version of the outline. Yeah, I did.

So I think you should take us through the story a little bit. Do you even want to describe the plot of The Brutalist in any way? Um. Is that useful for those listening at home? It is something I try to do when I find myself fumbling through almost every episode. Oh, of The Brutalist or of all?

Just any film? Well, I didn't write it down. Normally you write a summary. In the film Trap, there's a dad. That dad has a daughter. And then that daughter and the dad go to a show. I mean, so there's the plot. Recap which is Laszlo Toth, Hungarian Jewish Holocaust survivor, American immigrant.

He comes to stay with his cousin, winds up sticking up with this family outside of Philadelphia, which I knew that it was going to be set in Philadelphia, but that was... It is a Philadelphia movie. And what Philadelphia means to America. Yeah. We don't need that. This next week. We just don't. Well, the brutal boys, they can watch the Super Bowl and then, you know. So, and is commissioned to do a, like a reading room, a library, and then gets swept up into the world of this family and this industrialist. I was going to say Martin Van Buren, Harrison Van Buren, but the conflation is intentional. And then Harrison Van Buren commissions him to build a community center in Doylestown. And then the construction of the community center and toss assimilation or lack

thereof into America proceeds along with the arrival of his wife and niece, all from Europe. And, you know, shit unravels, I would say. Or does it? I mean, it does, but there is a very memorable ending that we don't need to get to quite yet. The ending contains a lot of narrative revelations that I think it's an interesting choice and a memorable choice, but we should talk about that and how it tells you what you know and when you know it.

Yes. Okay, so that's the plot. Very good, that was nice. Thank you so much. Then there is just like the basic, like visual recap and all of the very memorable set pieces, like starting with the coming out of the ship into the Statue of Liberty upside down,

which has become the poster. And it's not actually the first scene of the movie, which is notable, put a pin in that, but like as a banger and the door opens and ba-ba-ba-ba. And then you see this shot that like you've been sort of primed to be waiting for. I mean that is just like A+. Yes. If you like going to the movies. What a way to open a movie. This is a way to open a movie. And then kind of think of like other memorable shots or

moments. A lot of archival footage is used. There is the building of the reading room, which, you know, this is a movie about architecture, so that is like a incredible architectural set piece. There is the march up the hill to the commission, I guess you could call it. There's every very weird sex scene, which I do wanna talk about. Absolutely.

I guess, including most importantly, and I think sex scene is a euphemism big time, but the Carrera set piece. And then what happens in Carrera. And then the epilogue. Am I missing anything else? Oh, I guess like the final... I mean, the dinner party scene at the end, but that's less, that's more narratively weird than visually remarkable, in my opinion.

Yeah, I think this isn't necessarily visually remarkable, but one of the centerpiece scenes is the conversation, the cocktail shared between Laszlo and Harrison, which is sort of like them... confirming their affair in a lot of ways. You know, making certain that they will come together to make something. of like them confirming their affair in a lot of ways. You know, making certain that they will come together to make something, which is, I find to be one

of the most intoxicating, somewhat ridiculous and wonderful movie scenes in recent history. Like just the cock, they're sharing a cocktail. I mean, that's it. He shares his story and then he shares his philosophy. And yeah, that is the centerpiece of the movie. I was just thinking more in terms of like actual, like visual, and that appropriately is, they're seated.

But character-wise, yeah, that's the banger. That's the real... I love that sequence. That's when it jumps out. And then ideas, what is this movie about? Okay. Can you try to set aside what you think or have heard Brady Corbett talk about?

Yeah, of course, because I haven't heard that much. That is what I tried to do. I haven't heard that much. But it is about art and the pursuit of art and really, I guess, the pursuit of anything great and what comes in your way. And how often that is, in fact, American capitalism. It is about capitalism. It is about immigration and assimilation. It's about, I'm so sorry to say it,

it is about trauma, you know? It is. And loss and... That's something I want to zero in on on one of your key questions about this movie. Yeah, and it is about... What else is it about? I mean... I think what's... I think an important part of it

that is easy to understand even without listening to interviews with the filmmakers is what artists need to make what they make. Painters just need a canvas and some paint. Architects need a lot. They need a lot of money, raw materials, labor. They need patrons. And honestly painters need patrons and filmmakers need patrons. And the movie is about this tenuous relationship, not just between those two characters, but then what happens when something goes out into the world after it has been funded,

and who controls its story. Right. Which is critical to the end of the movie. Right. So, you know, I have had the fortune of seeing the movie three times, so I've been able to think about this movie a lot. And I have evolved the way that I think about it a lot.

The first time I watched it, I was just like, damn, I just love a big movie. You know, like, it wasn't that unsophisticated, but it's not, it's hard to not get swept up in the achievement of just even just the physical production. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, the other thing that it is about and that the epilogue makes very clear is that,

I mean, it's about the Holocaust and it's about the Holocaust survivors and it sort of literalizes that in a way that is notable and that has made me pause when thinking about some of the other themes like the, you know, I mean... I felt nervous about this the first time I saw it and now I think I have a handle on the way that the film sees it or at least a way to interpret it. And I don't think it's as squishy as I did before. Okay. Well, that's good.

Even if it's ambiguous, I don't think it's squishy. I'm not even talking about the Zionism claims, which we don't really need to... We don't have to go there, but the basic equation of if this is about what an artist needs to make what they are making, then ultimately what Toth is making is like a memorial to his imprisonment, like imprisonment in a concentration camp. I think equating pretty much any other form of art to that. And it's like, I don't know if I would always go there.

I don't know if I would do it. I don't know if that is specifically what his intention, though. The movie does not confirm that. It only has another character communicate that idea. And so I think you can also be skeptical about the artist's intention. One of the tricky things about this movie and trying to talk about it is, Brady has talked a lot about what the artist's intention. Now, one of the tricky things about this movie and trying to talk about it is Brady has talked a lot about what the movie's about. Yeah.

Some filmmakers don't do that. You know, like I've interviewed Paul Thomas Anderson a couple of times. He never fucking talks about what the movie means. He never explains it. And he did explain it when he was younger. And as filmmakers get older, they realize leaving some things unexplored leaves a lot for people like us and fans. So I think it's hard not to plant that onto it.

But the one thing that I would just like pull back a little bit from in terms of how you're defining it, and I think everything you said is right, is when you think about the artist and you think about what Lazlo Toth encounters, it ultimately becomes a much bigger metaphor, not just about artists trying to make something great, but about anybody coming to America or anybody in America trying to find a way towards success, personal salvation, the realization of some feeling that they have and that they've been told that they can have and that it breaks.

It doesn't work. It's a lie, right? And then the secondary aspect of that is if America is not what it says it is, do we have to go somewhere else? Which is where I think some of the Zionism and post-Holocaust search for refuge comes into discussion, which is sort of like, was it a necessary but evil function of the failure of America or the lie of America, which is like, these are very complicated and thorny issues that are being debated today, today in our world. And so the movie to me, not just on the surface, but even under the surface, is about everything that you said, but it's really more about the

intersection of all of those things and how they hit each other. Like, it's not just like assimilation is here and the immigrant experience is here and the life of an architect is here, and the immigrant experience is here, and the life of an architect is here, and the relationship between the artist and capital is here. It's like they hit each other. They'll touch each other. And so even though the movie,

a lot of people have said is very messy, especially in the second half, and I really wanna talk to you about that. It's trying to be messy. It's trying to make, it's trying to discomfort you with what happens when the collision occurs rather than the like perfect execution occurs. Right. So I think I'm even warmer on it now than I was the first time around.

I hear you too. I am, as I said, I try not to listen to any of the extra textual stuff. But I have seen Brady Corbett's other movies and this like stew of, you know, historical tragedies, like mixed together with alarming frequency. This is his move. In order to produce like a story about, you know, trauma and how everyone has let a main character down

and how that wrecks someone is like, you're right. That happens every time. And every single time I have bristled a little at just the, like the almost like supermarket sweep nature of historical tragedy. Like putting it in a blender. And you're right that it's like intentional and that the movie knows what it's doing,

but I don't know if it always gels for me. And sometimes I think this is the most successful version of it. I thought like Boxlux was the stupidest version of it, but I, you know, you're right that it's on purpose. Does that mean that it totally coheres? I don't know. Yeah, part of the trap I kept falling down

in my discussion with Adam is I see every movie and most movies are terrible. Yeah. So we have arrived at a movie that is wildly ambitious and just like rippling with ideas, you know, that is working so hard and maybe too hard, but working so hard to communicate that it is interested in a lot of things.

Right. And then we're like, yeah, but is it like too many things or is it too big or too supermarket sweep? And I'm like, I don't know. What do we want? Well, I mean, like, the final point of this conversation will be does a Capital G great movie, like, have to nail everything down to be Capital G great? And I have been turning it over in my head,

so we'll talk about the rest of the movie, and then we'll talk about that. Go ahead. Where do you want to go next? I want to talk about Laszlo Toth. Because so many of the ideas that we just enumerated and you've been describing it as like a micro epic, but really a character study. And there are several characters in this movie worth exploring. But he is like the vessel for most of the things.

And I've, at points in the film, while watching it the first time, I was like, wow, this is the most amazing performance I've ever seen. And I'm really fixated on this. And at some other points, I was like, okay, I see like the metaphors like walking around in like incredible sweaters, by the way, this is my Laszlo Toth outfit.

And just tremendous fits throughout. And sometimes I was like, is this character developed at all? Is this person just, is this literally a vessel and the receiving end of everything else and all other ideas and all other sources of action and development. And I'm not totally sure where I land, so it's memorable. But, you know, maybe it's just like the giant cross shining down at the end of it, but I was like, there is some like Christ-like stuff going on here throughout this movie, which, you know, for a Jewish,

like a very decidedly Jewish character, even though he ultimately gives up on his faith. Um... Well, Christ was a Jew, as we know. Yeah, we do know that. That's true. I... I do remember during the three and a half hour run being like, okay, but you gotta do something.

You know? Like, I need a little bit'd like, I need some action from him. And that may be the point. So okay, I think this is a really good question. I hadn't thought about it this way and it made me think about it. Yeah. I don't know if you're going to like my answer. That's fine. But I'm going to give it to you.

Yeah. We only meet Lazlo for, what is it, roughly like a 13 year stretch of his life. It's in the immediate aftermath of the most traumatic thing that could happen to a person. He survives the Holocaust. He escapes Europe amidst World War II and gets out and comes to America. He's been separated from his wife, who is clearly like his emotional twin. You know, the person who is, he has like completely wrapped his life around, at least intellectually and emotionally. And he doesn't have that person. He's in a new

land. He's not speaking his native language and he has just witnessed the worst things in the universe. He's in Dachau. No, he's Buchenwald. He's in Buchenwald. Excuse me. She's in Dachau. He's we of course we don't really get to know this guy. He's deeply traumatized. He's unable to, he either is unable or doesn't want to communicate. He very quickly slips into heroin addiction because he's obviously trying to quiet whatever is inside him and he's deeply damaged. And through this time, he's re-traumatized a couple of times, some ways that are more, that are less severe by like having his agency taken away from him and other ways that are incredibly violent and invasive.

So we don't see the young kid at Bauhaus wowing us. We don't see how his mother treated him. We don't see what his life was like between the ages of 50 and 70 before he became more infirmed. We don't see really any happy times. We only see bad times. And when things are bad, and when things are bad for a lot of men, as you know, they tend to go very internal. They tend to not communicate.

And he doesn't communicate a lot. I think it's not, it's not the lack of communication. And even I know, you know, people have been like, well, he kind of has a temper and he's meant to reflect. Frankly, I don't think his temper is that bad. Like every single complaint he has, it's grounded in reality. Maybe he shouldn't throw the book at the contractor, but that's kind of- That wasn't nice. That's not nice.

And that's kind of when you like violate some HR things, but otherwise, he's just exacting, you know? So that's what I have to say. I really enjoy when he pulls the other architect aside. He's like, everything that is ugly and stupid, and especially ugly, is yours. Yes. When you mentioned that one of the centerpiece scenes is that conversation between Harrison, which is like all charm and all ideas. I view the one release moment is a moment,

when I talked to Adrian Brody, I tried to signal this to him without actually spelling it out. And he didn't know what I was talking about, which I thought was notable, but I was like, the one time when you let loose, when you like explode is when he's in the car with Ergibet and he's like, they don't want us here.

They don't want us here. They don't want us here. That's like him finally verbalizing what it has taken him 10 years to get off his chest or to feel comfortable saying or whatever that he feels as alienated here as he did in Europe. He feels as, as unwanted, as hated, as misunderstood. And then that like sets up what's coming next with. Right. They're in New York and nephew and niece are moving to Israel and should they move to Israel as well or should they stick it out in New York? And so I do see him as basically like a restrained, a forcibly restrained artist who doesn't know

how to talk. And so you don't get a lot of what you're, I think you're circling for. I think what I'm bumping on, and it's not the performance, and it's not the restraint, which all makes sense and which I think is, like, frankly, magic. And, like, the pain and, like, there's just almost, like almost like a door to Adrian Brody's heart that just

like keeps opening and closing without saying anything. Like it's really, really remarkable. But you know, on the one hand, Lazlo Toth encounters like every single bad thing that like could ever happen. I mean, he does. And it is also true that like none of it is his fault, you know, like it's all being done to him. But as a result, you don't see him make a mistake.

You don't see, he's like pretty inhuman in the sense of... He does feed his wife heroin to get her out of a spell and almost kills her. Yeah, but even that, it's like because she's in so much pain. And that's, and that is also like where they get to have like an emotional connection. And he confesses like his deepest dark secret to her. And then like... This is like when I go shopping for Campari

for you and my wife. Just trying to... This is like when I go shopping for Campari for you and my wife. Just trying to... There's so much Campari at your house. There's a lot right now. I know, I was like, what's going on here? I mean, yeah, like, like he's not living like a, like a perfect life, but even like, you know,

his multiple hand jobs, the first one, he's got a thing he likes. Yeah, but that one, he like. The first one, he's kind of really... He's got a thing he likes. Yeah, but that one, he like, the first one, when he arrives in the US, and he's like, I don't really want this, you know, I just want the hand job because anything else would be too close, because really, like, in the back of his mind, like, he still loves his wife,

you know? And every... He's getting bullied by his friend into getting a hand job. Yeah, and then, you know, like you, he meets Gordon and he's like, well, I'm just going to stay in line overnight so that you're kicking at some food, which is like a wonderful thing to do. But there is, there's like, there's, he has no flaws, you know? And I think even, even his terstenness and his exacting idea of what this monument should be, I mean, again, you shouldn't throw notebooks at other people, but otherwise that is presented.

And I think we are meant to see it as like a commitment to something holy and bigger. And then what it is actually revealed to be, which is like, we are trying, he's so mad about the height of the ceilings because he's trying to recreate like the exact specifications of his cell at Buchenwald. You're like, okay, so he's a little blameless. And I find that, I don't, I found that limiting

when I was watching it. I was like, when are you, or it made me aware of, of outside forces of the movie or something. Do you know what I mean? And I was like- The associative quality of the filmmaker would imbue a character with that idea. Yes, and I was just like, okay,

but I've been here for three and a half hours and like, maybe you should make one mistake. I think it's extremely astute and you're not wrong. I think you can rationalize it as I have and will. I mean, heroin is bad. Don't do it. Yeah, I mean, he has a very bad temper. He's extremely emotionally closed off.

He's downright awful to his wife when she comes to America. I would say he's not as quite as saintly as you're portraying it, but the idea that you've located is right, which is that this character is valorized in this world, which is mostly a broken, corrupt, grubby world. And if you look at the movies that this movie has been compared to,

let's just use The Godfather, because that's an easy way to explain it. Michael Corleone is not sympathetic. No, not at all. By the end of the first Godfather film, he's essentially the villain. And in the second Godfather film, he's sort of Satan. And obviously that is a choice that we make and we say, oh, well, then the filmmaker isn't associating himself specifically

with that point of view. He's more elucidating the way that systems and families work and the way that the nation, you know, like imprints these ideas on us and makes us burn each other down as opposed to an artist who is historically a more saintly figure, a figure that operates in solitude and creates something special that no one could understand but the artist. But that's what I believe too. that no one could understand but the artist. But that's what I believe too. I'm a person who talks about art for a living and likes it and wants to believe

in the holiness of the act. So it doesn't really bother me. I guess I believe in the holiness of the art and not the act. Okay. And I, like- That's why I talk to the directors. Yeah, I mean, honestly it is

because I do sometimes at some point get impatient with what is undeniably like a very hard thing to do. And there is a lot of work that goes into making anything. And that is just like the practical physical work before you deal with everyone else who's trying to make a buck off of you, which is the only way to get it out there. Which like the impatience that Toph has for literally everyone else in his life

is like inspiring to me, you know? I understand that. You are the brutalist. Yeah, so I understand all of that, but I get tired of listening to it because it doesn't affect, to me, the result is the result. You either get there or you don't. And maybe I'm prefiguring how I feel about things.

I don't know. Maybe this is therapy. We're discovering it in real time. But I think... This is why this is such a special movie. This movie confronts you with all of these ideas and asks you to think about how you really feel about them. That does not happen at fucking the fall guy. I mean, I agree with you. I said all of that. But I do also think I feel differently than what the movie is putting forth. And it's like, again, to me, I was thinking about this with, like, when you guys were talking about A Complete Unknown, which is a very, very different type of movie

in a lot of ways, but is at least, you know, it's about an artist. And I've heard... And interestingly, doesn't take that saintly portrait. Yes. And also, I think, to your frustration, at least in the first conversation you had with Mal and Chris before you guys just, like, started, like, exchanging bootlegs. It doesn't explain anything about him and, and, and, and is maybe also like in curious and it really just does present him as like, well, this like

intriguing and like undeniably like magically talented person just showed up. Yeah. A shadow swept into town. And I like that to me is exhilarating. Like that you just get presented with something. And I do believe that like some people have genius and some people just don't. And that is like part of what makes it genius.

And so I don't mean to diminish the struggle, but this movie does also end by saying it's the destination, not the journey. So the holy thing at the end is more what matters to me than all of the whining. Do you wanna talk about Ergibet, Joffia and where the movie goes in the end? Is there anything in the first half

that you wanna talk about anymore? I mean, we haven't said the name Guy Pearce. Oh yeah, well, we said Harrison Van Buren. I wanna talk about Guy Pearce again when, yeah. Well, we said Harrison Van Buren. Um, I want to talk about Guy Pearce again when we talk about whose movie is this. I guess we mentioned there were several other characters in this movie that, to me, are... They have less weight to carry,

and so they are more vivid. And, I mean, Guy Pearce, like, steals this movie for a huge portion of it. And I do think there is something telling that like the character and the portrait of the evil, venal businessman or like the interloper, the person getting in your way is to me like instantly indelible. And the the saintly artist guy is kind of like, well, we're like feeling out how we feel about him. But like the movie knows who that who the guy pierces. 100 percent. I wrote this the first time that is that this is a very real thing when an extremely powerful person comes into your life and they can immediately

seduce and if they want to destroy you because of what you're willing to give them, because you start imagining what they could create for you. Right. He, he, Corbett nailed something with that construction and found the right actor who had the right, like, mix of charm and insidious underbelly, but also so funny. Yeah. Like, you can't, like, you're supposed to laugh.

Yeah, of course. He's supposed to be such a ridiculous, hilarious character. And like, and I mean, just his booming American voice, which we know, you know, is not his natural register. Also Joe Alwyn, like the way those guys are hitting their Rs, you know? It's like, it is almost like a parody of Americans that is perfect.

Like that is how the Americans in this movie should be speaking, you know? So, I mean, I can't believe that Guy Pearce is not gonna win an Oscar. Like, he kind of walks away with the movie for me. I think a real pain not being nominated for Best Pictures throws a slight monkey wrench in there. However, I think that would mean Edward Norton would win, but that's a whole other conversation.

Right, yes. We've been doing a lot of Complete Unknown at my house. Oh, interesting. But not just once, it's just like a Rolling Stone, please. Like two minutes in. An hour and 20 minutes into the movie. I was like, that's sort of the whole point of the movie. Anyway...

The other characters and the other performances, I mean, are you ready? Should we talk about it? Absolutely. I felt like you went in, though, looking for Kitty Oppenheimer. And did you find her in the performance by Phyllis E. Jones? Not in the construction of the character. Okay.

In the performance, I mean, yes. You didn't think it worked? Not at all. Yeah, people have been pretty split on this. And I know Adam had it right when it's just kind of, she's just sort of, for my money, like disastrously miscast. And you mentioned that an earlier version of this movie

had a whole cast of actors who I think would have been wrong except for Marion Cotillard as Erzsébet, and that clicked the character, the second half of the movie in just like... Yeah, but she was already the star of The Immigrant, which is like such a close call. Adrian Brody was also already the star of The Pianist. Very true. What are you doing? Very true. Good point.

I... Felicity Jones seems like a wonderful person and has just never really been the actor for me. Your speed, yeah. And I think even when I heard the cast, I was like, really? Are we? You know, before the re-speecher controversy came out about the fixing, I had heard people had said to me, I have no idea if this is true or not,

that her ability to learn Hungarian was unmatched. People were like, I don't know how she did this because she's speaking in a language that is incredibly difficult to learn. And Brody, I guess, had the advantage of having a Hungarian mother and his grandfather, and he at least had heard the language a lot and she had not and she just learned how to speak it in the movie. And people were like, what the fuck is going on? This is crazy how she pulled this off.

But I do think that she has a little bit of the black licorice thing for some fans who are just like, I don't buy her in movies. Can I just say something? And this is related to Reese Picher. And I know I'm a proponent of the like, you gotta sing to win the Oscar. And I think that's really true.

Everyone talking about like learning lines of a different language, even a language as difficult to pronounce as Hungarian is the same as learning how to sing or, you know, I mean, they're memorized. Most of this is just written out, you know, in letters. Look at you, caping for Monica Barbaro, just so blatantly.

Well, I am caping for Monica Barbaro, like so hard, but what are we talking about? She learned Hungarian. No, she memorized lines, you know? Like she, I, do we know? Are you sure she doesn't understand it? I'm not sure. If she has a, do we have any clips of her doing

present Hungarian? Let's call her right now. Felicity, what do you think? I don't know. Say Amanda is so wrong in Hungarian. Am I out of line here? No, no, I don't think you're out of line. I think it's more people could probably learn the foreign language if you're reading it off of a letter than could just learn to're out of line. I think it's more people could probably learn

the foreign language if you're reading it off of a letter than could just learn to sing out of nowhere. I think there's a more inherent talent that you're tapping into that is a little bit harder. But also like, it's not just reading lines, right? Like you have to understand the intent behind it to be able to put the right inflection and the right performance.

Well, I have to be honest, Bobby, some of the line readings in both Hungarian and English, I didn't really feel brought the craft that I have come to expect from The Brutalist. Many people agree with you. I'm with you. I never tripped on this at all. I really didn't feel like I was watching a performer who was out of her depth

or didn't fit in the movie. And I don't know, maybe I just like her as an actor. It's one of those things where this is just pure subjectivity. And maybe I don't like these characters either. Like, I mean, these characters, I mean, this and Amy Adams in The Master, which, you know, I'm a little bit with Adam in the once, like, two hand jobs, including one very angrily given by like a cross wife. We all need a supplicant.

Yeah. I see the influence. And I guess it's not... by like a cross wife. We all need a supplicant. Yeah. I see the influence. And I guess it's not. I mean, that's great. You're right. Seeing movies is good. And liking movies?

Hand jobs, we've all been there. It happens. You know, it's part of life. It does. It's a part of life. But I mean, it's. Don't look at me. Why are you looking at the camera at me?

We're just talking here. Yeah. But I... I don't know... What was I really supposed to get from that character? And like... I just... I'm, you know, she's got her own career and she deals with losing her life, like... You know, like not her actual life,

but her job and her family and everything in a very different way. And she takes just, you know, she's writing like a women's column and because that's the only journalism job she can get in America and she wants to go back to Israel to be a grandmother. I guess there are different ways of dealing with trauma and that's what is being illustrated. I think that that's probably just a representation of the way that America viewed women and that it's not this, you know, evolved, sophisticated land of equality that a woman who would be

as well-educated as she is at Oxford, who has a more sophisticated job in her native country comes here like so many immigrants who come here and are asked to do less than what they are capable of in order to make a living. That's what that stands for. I think in the movie, they're meant to be a team. And you see the way that she charms Van Buren and almost navigates that relationship on his behalf because he doesn't have those tools. And you could see a world in Hungary where she did that for him. And that's something that you see a lot of great artists have a partner. The producer wife or the producer partner.

Yes, sure, yeah. Which is a very common thing, including on this movie. Yes, and Brady Corbett's partner, who is also a filmmaker, who knows who is who in his relationships. But I don't know, I watched that and I was like, this actually is how it is. Anytime I meet like a power couple, one person has one job and the other person has the other job.

And that was how I understood the character. Now we get less time with her because she only comes in in the second half of the movie. So if we're concerned about developing Laszlo, she's even less developed. I mean, we don't really know anything about her other than what she shares to Van Buren. So it's never going to be as deep a character. If you don't like the performance, I can't argue that. Yeah, I really, I don't like it. And I think it's just so uneven in terms of the presence that like if you buy him as much as I buy Brody as Toth and you don't buy her, then the entire concept of the characters

and whatever equality or power couple, like we're a team that is meant to be communicated just kind of- Didn't of, it doesn't happen. Okay. So I wrote about this on Letterboxd. Oh, good. I'm going to tell you about it right now. I guess you have not seen it then.

You haven't been keeping track. Um, Joffia. Yeah. Who is the niece. Yes. Who is the daughter of, is it Laszlo's sister? Yes. Laszlo's sister.

And it sounds as though she has died and so she is then paired in Dachau with Felicity Jones's character. And she is mute for the entirety of the film until the end. No, until she's pregnant and is like, I'm going to Israel. Until she goes to Israel. She's the first character we see. She's portrayed by Rafi Kassidy, who is also in Vox Lux, who is also in White Noise.

First and last. First and last person that we see in this film. I obviously noticed that the first time I saw the movie. Well, not really, honestly. I probably didn't think hard enough about it. But it occurred to me, and I think this is the intention, is that this is a movie that is told from her perspective. And that the reason the movie ends the way that it does, and she has the last word, and

she is the one who interprets the work of the artist, is it's a literary device, the way that you might have a connected family member telling the tale of a great member or couple in a family. And I don't know why that didn't occur to me the first time, but it completely alters my perspective on the film because she is a person who moves to Israel and who is a Zionist and who sees opportunity to communicate her politics and her faith through these works of art and this life story. And that doesn't mean that that is what the movie is about.

It means it's something that people do. And it's something that people use art to do, the same way that Harrison Van Buren uses art to make a gymnasium and the city forces him to make a church. And so it's all of these influences that encroach upon what an artist wants to do. Now again, that only flatters the thing that you're saying is kind of annoying, which is that this is like a perfect portrait of an artist. But maybe it also complicates it because maybe Joffia is creating an act to honor her uncle,

who she sees as such an important person in the story of art and her faith. So there's a reason he's not flawed. Also, the other thing too is that she has met every main character in this movie, which I find interesting. Like, when she comes into the film, like, everything she's communicating, it's like, it can be rationalized, it can be logic.

Yeah, I don't think your interpretation is wrong, and I think it is probably right. I mean, it is undeniable that the first shot is of her in a room somewhere in Hungary, we assume. Seemingly is. Raids are happening. Yeah, right. And not only does the epilogue close with her, but they flash back to that exact room. So you're meant to go back to it.

I think that the way the character is handled in the intervening three hours just does not communicate that device and perspective effectively enough for me to, for it to land. And... That may not be the intention. It's just my reading. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But you don't watch it the first time.

And because it, I mean, it just, there's, there's so much in between that you, and it happens so quickly. You don't... It's just so much movie. Yeah. And like, and it doesn so quickly. You don't- It's just so much movie. Yeah, and like, it doesn't land. And to go back the second time, if you're looking for it,

you can kind of piece it together, but there, like, I don't know if that is fully developed, to be quite honest, which is sort of, which is my larger issue with the ending, which is like, cool ideas that I think are kind of like tacked on. Almost in like a super... Well, okay. So, I mean, let's talk about the ending. That's more about the epilogue. You know, I wrote in here, where does this movie turn for you? And like, maybe it doesn't turn for you.

I had a couple instances where I was like, huh, this is interesting. The first is when Felicity Jones shows up. And you know, and there is like that delineation from part one and part two. And I think part one is like pretty unassailable. Part two, Felicity Jones shows up and I'm like, well, this is interesting.

And I, you know, I wonder if this is how this, you really meant for this to go, but I'm gonna keep going on with it. And then there's the Carrera trip, which that was tough because as soon as they do that shot of the quarry in Carrera, I was just like, this is the best thing I've ever seen in my entire life. Mr. Marble Dude is my number one film character of 2024.

The Italian anarchist, shout out to him. And gives like an incredible speech about the only time he's left the quarry is to like go beat Mussolini's body with his dead hands. And he's got like that immaculate sweater and the hair. Yeah. And you know, when he shows up late and he's like, I will go take a coffee and then we'll go

I mean, listen. Guy Pearce rolls his eyes. Like incredible. Yeah. Loved it. Would you give, give up a few fingers to have that guy swag? Yeah. Yeah. Because that's, he earned it. May I also like age as well as he does, you know? The locks are beautiful. Yeah. He's doing great. And, and then they're partying and you know. This is all part of the plan though, right? Like he's doing great. And then they're partying and, you know... This is all part of the plan, though, right? Like, he draws you in. He's like, I'm gonna give you the beautiful imagery,

and then... Okay, so... And then I'm gonna hit you. And so then Van Buren rapes Lazlo Toth. And... Here is my reaction, sitting in the theater. As soon as I heard the pants on Buckling Eyes, I was just like, oh, no.

Like, don't... But not in like, I want to protect this character. Like this is, he's been through too much. You know, this is like a horrible thing to witness. And like, I was just like, oh what the fuck? Like, what are you guys doing? And I, watching it a second time, like I've obviously thought a lot about it. And the way that sex is used in the movie

is notable and clearly trying to set that up or at least like the exploration of like sex is power did you know you know which then gets really really literalized like we need another word be unliteralized for the I guess Adam Naiman's Meta5 was... it's very good. And I like I... so I do understand at least structurally what they're trying to do in terms of the sexual dynamics between each character in the film is explored, including Zofia and Harry. Yeah. AKA Joe Allen, who just, I mean, hats off to that guy for just being the worst man in every movie that he takes on. He does it willingly and then he's just like cinema.

It's almost like filmmakers saw him in his real life and thought, is this the worst man in the world? Wasn't his fault. Let's put it to the test. No, he got dumped for what's his name? What's that guy? Mattie Healy. Yeah, Mattie Healy.

So that's not his fault. Okay. Listen, like, you know, he's, I, now she's dating Travis Kelsey and we got to do that whole Super Bowl thing again, whatever. Not his fault. But, so everybody has a weird, awkward, memorable sex scene that is meant to communicate something about where they are in life and how they or their bodies

are being used or violated, you know, like, I get it. I felt throughout that the sex scenes were like a little bit more shock value than character development. Like, they were always just like way weirder than they needed to be, you know? Which like, sure, you can go for it, but... That's my tempo. What can I say?

You know, well, it's just kind of like... Sex can be a very weird thing. It's gilding, I mean, sex is weird, but it's like, at some point I was like, okay, you guys are really trying to let me know that there's like some weird sex stuff going on here. Well, okay, so I definitely really trying to let me know that there's like some weird sex stuff going on here. Well, okay, so I definitely had the same thought in the first hand job. I was like, interesting. That is the base of this man's dick.

Like, they're just like, they're just gonna show, this is that kind of a movie. Like very early on it's like, this is a European film. This is not an American movie. Like we're going to... The first hand job, I was like, okay, that's fine. It's not something you would see most American movie stars do. Totally.

What happens in that sequence. And so I think it's trying to say to you, like, strap in. This isn't, this is not a Robert Zemeckis movie. Right. You know what I mean? But I'm talking more about like his, you know, the old timey porno that he goes to see in the middle and I was like, okay, cool. Yeah, I think, yeah, to me, I mean,

you could probably be like... And then the secondhand job, whereas like, all right, all right, I too like the films of PTA. And the Zofia, I guess that one's okay, that's just like, that's relatively subtle. They don't show it. They don't show anything.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it's communicated pretty clearly that there's something kind of forcible and awkward going on with Harry. You know, I guess in the way that this movie is like doing it all, all of the time, it's really doing it all. But anyway, so tonally, or I guess in terms of

we're going to make explicit the explicit, I guess the rape makes sense. It's just not a subtle movie. And it's not a subtle gesture to have the evil capitalist patron rape the artist. That is the most, you could literalize it to your point, one of the core ideas of the movie. And he chooses to do so.

The case that I would make is that many of the films that we consider great films and many of the films that we consider great films and many of the reasons why we remember these great films tend to do these things. They tend to have very big, clearly communicated gestures. These are not subtle, ambiguous, quiet films. They're films about desperation and confusion and violence. And so when you go down the list of movies that are clearly influences on this movie, and when you go down the list of like the epic, which is what this movie is in the tradition of,

they all have this shit. I don't disagree, but I... And so, like, structurally, it is in keeping with the rest of the film. I don't know, like, reaction in the moment and my reaction walking out was like, well, OK, you know, and that's that's where it turned. And then it moves very quickly. And suddenly.

Now, this is where I bumped. Yeah. And still bump. OK. Is heroin to the dinner scene? The dinner scene. The dinner scene sucks. This is this is the weakest part of the film. And I don't know, I think that like the resolution of the dinner scene and like Harrison Van Buren's ambiguous but like pretty clear death.

I think that's why that scene happens. It has to. Is it because you need to get to that. Yes, and that does make sense. But like, why is she just like, even her dialogue, and again, maybe it's the poor woman, she's like, why is she just, like, even her dialogue? And again, maybe it's the poor woman. She's like, you are an evil rapist in that weird accent. And I was like, well, let me tell you,

Felicity Jones is not built for this. And it's... It is the weakest part of a movie that, to that point, has made bold moves that I've been like, wow, I can't believe they did that. But the whole time I was there, I was in it. Yeah. I was not distracted at all.

And then when that scene happened, I was like, gosh, I hope this isn't the last scene in the movie. Right. Because this would be a terrible way to end this movie that I'm loving. Right, right, right. I see it as like it's cement in the construction. And there needed to be an event that

would traumatize Harrison, that would reveal him and traumatize him. And this is the best that they could come up with. Yeah, but it's like the plot mechanics are like really showing and it's showing both narratively and in execution. I mean, at least the Felicity Jones of it. Once like Joe Owen is going upstairs and the camera's following him and they're searching for him and even...

There's a great wonder there by the way. When they're following him up the stairs. Yeah, no, it's really great. The shifts. They're searching for him. And even sort of. Great wonder there, by the way. And they're following him up the stairs. Yeah, no, it's really great. The technical stuff in the movie is crazy. And his performance and the suggestion that it's not unfamiliar behavior. He knows, yeah. They know.

Yeah, that they know. But again, that is just, it's a suggestion. The movie communicates without being like, beat the drum literal You know that sometimes subtlety actually does work for me even in a movie like The Brutalist so It doesn't work and that kind of pretty quickly after the

the rape You're kind of like alright this these plot plot points are rolling up pretty quickly and things are getting dire and also obvious. And in the middle, they shoot up and she almost dies. And that's bad. I'm glad she didn't die. But it's also like, okay, now we've just added an overdose into this. Like, okay, all right.

Shit's bad. I mean, people have pain and they're trying to, they're trying to handle their pain, you know? Me too. I have a severe hip flexor strain. I'm taking a lot of Advil. You know, I'm doing my best. This is life.

I threw my neck out the other night. This is 40. It was like, I was like, oh God, I'm never going to be able to walk again. I know exactly how you feel. Yeah. It's okay. I got a new pillow and a heating pad and we're back in business. I'm very happy for you.

So that all happens. And I'm, so I'm just trying to like my mind state. You teamed up the epilogue here. Yeah. So, but so I would say that the last 30 minutes and when I rewatched it, I was kind of like watching the clock and it's the last 30, or, you know, except for the epilogue, last 30 minutes, and it's just, it's making really big strokes really fast.

Yes. And then the epilogue. Okay, so first of all, the epilogue is at the Venice Bienniale. So A+, I was like, oh, I know where in Venice you are. I love Venice. I thought as I was watching the movie, there's no way Amanda can hate this.

Can and also, I was joking about you performing the disco, ba-da-da-da, but that shit rules. That's really funny and good. I have a real spot for Italian disco, so. All the variations on the score throughout the film are really smart. The score is magnificent. The score is incredible. Yep.

So... Venice, that's cool. Uh, and, you know, like, I'm, it's great. And then out comes Zofia, who you don't totally understand as Zofia right away because Rafii Cassidy is recast as her daughter. Which is played by Ariane Lebed. Right, and so it's, she is giving the speech and you're trying to figure out in like real time

what is going on, which is very cool. But, and I like that aspect of it and in many ways is the opposite of just like the last 30 minutes of yelling at you of like, okay, and now there's a rape, and now there's an overdose, and now there's a suicide, and now everyone's yelling. But it is revealed that the, well, that Toth is being honored at the Israeli pavilion,

which seems to indicate that he did eventually follow Erejabet to Israel, even though she's not there. It's 1980, so some time has passed. She was not in good health. Um, he has been designing buildings, which we see via some sketches, now infamous. Uh, you also see their locations. So they're almost all built in the United States in the 70s.

Yes. A lot in Connecticut. Yes, and the, which is where Attila's wife is from, who we didn't talk about at all. I liked them. I mean, I didn't like them as people, but those were some great scenes. The first half of the movie is pitch perfect.

And a lot of sexual stuff going on there. But it's a huge theme of the movie. Yes, but the insane, weird desire of artistic people. And the way that when we get close to artistic people, we get more turned on because they can access something we can't. Implied and danced around as opposed to, you know, fully hit over your head. True, but the same way that like,

there's something that makes us hate ourselves for how attracted we are to certain things. And like, that's what that whole scene is about, you know, where she's like hot for him, but she can't help make fun of his nose and she can't help, you know, lie about him making a pass. And the same is true for Harrison

and his relationship with Laszlo. Like, this is good stuff in the movie. I like that stuff. Yeah, of course. But like, you understand my point. I do, yeah. These people wanna fuck. What's the problem here?

That's great, everybody wants to fuck. That's cool. Listen, all I want are movies where it's like two people wanna fuck. But even in that, I tend to prefer the ones where they like, they fuck immediately after the movie ends, as opposed to the... I like the foreplay, is I guess what you could say. OK, so, and they finished the community center.

We know that in the epilogue. Because it's shown in a drawing that may or may not have been drawn by AI. The only things that were completed, were sketched by AI are in the video. That is behind him, or behinded by AI are in the video. Oh, okay. That is behind him, or behind her while she's giving the speech. Apparently everything that we see while they're walking through the hallway was drawn by artists. Okay, that's good. Okay, and then she starts into her speech, her tribute to her uncle, adopted father more or less.

And you are right that it is very pointed and political and whether or not she is infusing her own interpretations or whether it is just the intent of the thing is unclear. It is deeply ambiguous what the intention is. But she reveals in her telling of it, which when you're watching it for the first time, you're just kind of like, okay, so I guess this is what happened, especially after 30 minutes of just rapid plot being thrown at you. And it's like, okay, well, this was actually all designed as a tribute and a recreation of his time at the

concentration camp. And then she's like, he did it, ta-da. It's the destination, not the journey. And then one of the greatest song cues of all time, one for you, one for me. One for you, one for me by LaBionda, the Italian disco. Yes, speaking of Italian disco. So I walked out of the movie, this was very late. I think I made what can only be described

as an Amanda emoji as I walked out just to myself. I think I made what can only be described as an Amanda emoji as I walked out just to myself. I was just like, okay. And like, gotta go find my car. It's not a good movie to have no one to talk about with. No, I was like, all right. I think in the moment I found the treatment of the Holocaust tribute as like a reveal to be in foretaste. the treatment of the Holocaust tribute

as like a reveal to be in foretaste. The first time I saw it, I thought it was genius, but I was like, oh, they treated this like a reveal. Yeah. I've come to understand it totally differently. And, but you know, most people will see this movie once. So. 100%.

So it's important. When I talked to Adam about it, he was like, the artist is a smuggler. We love that idea. He smuggled in all these ideas. about it, he was like, the artist is a smuggler. We love that idea. He smuggled in all these ideas. Which he may have, but Laszlo does not talk during the epilogue. In fact, he's in a wheelchair and it appears as though he's infirmed in some way and maybe unable to communicate, which would allow Zsofia to speak on his behalf with her own intent. And that's all fine, but it's in the span of about five minutes at the end of a three and a half hour movie.

And then it hits to one for them, one for you, one for me, which, like, maybe that's from the perspective of Zofia, but I, like, don't think so. No, I think it's from the perspective of Brady Coria, but I, like, don't think so. No, I think it's from the perspective of Brady Corbet flipping his fingers off at the people who pay for movies. Right, but I... And that old canard about what directors do

and what actors do. Sure, but it... You also just have to connect it to the discussion of the art that came immediately before it. Yeah. And the artist as Smuggler and this project that he was, you know, laboring for so long and also, you know, had to build a church in the middle of

was actually like a reconstruction of his painting and also his love for his wife, which like, okay. Certainly some gilding of the lily there. Right. So my instant reaction was like, I think that's in poor taste. Like much in the way that like, you know, 9-11 shows up in Vox Lux along with everything else.

And I'm like, okay, sure, if you want. Like that, just that grab bag of let's use the greatest horrors in history. I mean, you gotta remember- For my own narrative. Well, but it's- Like this guy starred in the American remake of Funny Games. You know what I mean you gotta remember my own narrative Well, but like this this kid this guy starred in the American remake of funny games You know I mean like this this this though like the cinema of confrontation of like of

Transgression is obviously something he loves. He's doing it over and over again. Sure trying to upset you. He's trying to make you go like, oh You they just raped him, you know, like he's that's the intent Yeah, but I don't go oh like I'm not I'm not like, wow, how transgressive. Or like, gross choice. And like, how dare you. Or the world is gross. Whatever your takeaway is. Like, I think-

No, my takeaway is like, come on. Like, Mr. Highfalutin, you're like trying to do like one of these great things and like, no, you didn't nail that, sorry. I like, respectfully, your britches are too big for whatever's going on with you and that's you know, maybe that can lead us to like the final thing of Does it does the movie have to stick the lid? Well, I don't know. Let's talk about the ending a little bit more Do you see it in any particular way? Yeah

The epilogue in particular. I mean that is the thing that for people who have seen the movie more than once, for Oscar voters, I guess, you know, like, the movie has, it's not been widely seen yet. You know, I think it's only in like 800 theaters or something. It's done actually really good business, but this is never gonna be a movie that, as you say, people, like millions of people will see five times. Right.

For a variety of reasons. but it's incumbent on us when you get a big juicy piece of steak to like dig in. So I think, I think I understand it a little bit more the second time around. And now that you've had the warning of, because once you see it the second time and you're reminded, oh right, it starts with Zofia. It starts with, and I think the last sentence

of that scene is we wanna make sure we get you to your proper home or something that is about like your home in like a very sinister way. And so this idea of what is home and can there be a home for anyone and all of these things becomes resonant and is resonant in the epilogue. Her character is more or less abandoned until two

hours in, she gives one speech about Jerusalem. And I just, I still think like my first viewing of it and just being like, uh, okay, is gonna be how a lot of people feel. And like, it has to be because you only get one shot with someone with a three and a half hour movie. And I also, even if it is about her... Not about her. ...and she's the narrator, but like, okay, so what does that mean?

Like, how does that, what does that change for you? It means that no matter what an artist does, people always use what they do to their own ends. Like that, I think, is a huge part of the intention of that entire experience. And that there is all, as much pomp and circumstance as necessary before a project begins, as much as necessary after it ends. That like, to be in the world of arts, especially at this high level,

you are constantly being evaluated and reevaluated and used. And that might be- I can't fucking break. I mean, honestly, you know, I have no patience for it. Like, as a long project of art, I'm like, I'm sure that that's true. Like, that's tough, you know? You also got to make the movies.

Sure, yeah. I don't know, I mean, he has been... Is the movie good enough that... He has been very circumspect about whatever happened on Voxelux. It's obvious. They wrote this in the immediate aftermath of that movie being released.

I don't know if he didn't get final cut. I don't know if they made him change a lot of things. It clearly pissed both of them off, him and his partner, Mona. And so this being the thing that they threw themselves into, the only reason that like you're being like, come on and being frustrated by it is cause it's like this movie might win best picture. Like if this was just an independent movie and A24 didn't buy it. No, I don't think that's true.

It's because I, first of all, because I saw Vox Lux and second of all. Well, maybe it wasn't the movie you wanted you to see. And second of all, because it asked for three and a half hours of my time. And it does want me to think about it. And so there we go. So that's the thing. It gets me asking all of these questions. I'm engaged in it. It's obviously an achievement on so many levels, performance, craft, like ideas,

the, just the conversation around it, which, and I, the just the the conversation around it, which and I don't mean the Brutal Boys, I mean like people who have seen the movie wanting to talk about it and me wanting have been like waiting for two weeks to talk to you about it. I, is it still, is something that is so ambitious still great if it can't land its own plane. And you think it lands its plane. I'll give you the dumbest answer I can give you. I gave this movie four and a half stars.

Okay, I, God. That's the dumbest way to answer it. At some point, I just like am mad at all of you for being on your, you know, on your like wavelength of conversation. But, and I understand that, but the truth is that I think that this is a movie that has flaws. Mm-hmm.

But relative to the movie year that we just had, it's a movie that exceeds others in my view. Yeah. Despite those flaws. Yes. And I do, that's how I've always thought about things. Totally. It might be sports brained and stupid,

but I grew up reading Roger Ebert and I was trained to think in certain systems. And the same way that the Oscar race is foolish and all artists objective, a movie like this, very few movies allow for the possibility of conversations like this on the show. Totally. To me, that's like a massive achievement.

Am I grading movies against my very own particular personal experiences? Yes, so is every personal life. So is everyone all the time, and we should all be more explicit about that. So to answer your question, can this movie be great even if it's not fully great, not 100% great? Yes, because no movie is.

Yes, I mean, so I agree with that. I have been thinking a lot about like if I had seen it and if I had done a proper top five list. Where would it sit? Yeah, where would it sit? I think Chris put it at four. And well, and would it sit? Because I agree with everything you're saying.

And in the context of this show and like being able to talk about things, like God bless them, like amazing stuff. And also like it's very good. And it's definitely one of the better movies that I saw for the calendar year of 2024. I do think that there is something embedded in it that is about greatness and certainty to bring in another best picture contender. picture contender. And you know, it's like, if you're going to go for it, like, then you set the standard high, like you have to go for it. Think about it like this. This is, this is helpful, I think. Was Challengers number one

for you? No, Anorah was. Anorah was, sorry. Was Challengers two? Yes. Okay. So Challengers was three for me. And Challengers for both of us was a joy machine. It does not mean it's a flawless movie, but you would put Challengers over The Brutalist in part because you think about what the movie's trying

to do, is this fair to say? Right. And versus what it accomplishes. And so The Brutalist is reaching for something that maybe it cannot achieve, but it is reaching. I think- Whereas Challengers, which is great, its ambitions are lower.

They're still way above most of what we do here, but it is lower. And so how we grade these things, how we canonize them or not is so complicated because that intention that I keep circling back to, people are like, don't talk about the intention. What is the movie? Look at the text. I don't live in that world. I'm never going to live in that world.

Well, I'm also using the intention, but I think the self-reflection in the movie and the self-referential nature of it and the intention and maybe it's a little bit like, you know, I read the character of Lazlo Loth, like, slightly differently. I tried to... You didn't hear this, but I tried to get Corbett, and he did kind of associate himself with Van Buren too. To say, like, how much of you... I think I asked him specifically, how much of you is in Van Buren, because Van Buren's incredibly charming and autodidact,

and a bit of a weird guy. I think Brady is incredibly charming and a bit of an autodidact, and a little weird. Right, right, right. And I say that with affection, but you know, to write a character like that, you got to be able to channel it. So if you think of the movie in this more multifarious way where it's like, sure, he's Laszlo, absolutely, but is he also not Erzszebet? Is he, when he is being the supplicant to his wife when she's directing her movie? I'm not even talking about like who he is in the movie.

The movie as like its belief in like an artist, and like the artist as the holy person. You don't love that. You don't love that. You've never loved that since I've known you. And as I said, when we're talking about it, for me it's not the artist, it is the art. It is the final product.

It is like, did you nail it? And then a fascinating thing about this movie is that like Laszlo did, but because of the budget of the film, like, you know, like they can't build it, we can't see it, you know? Yeah. A 20 million dollar building. Yeah. Right. So I think I think it's that strain and that argument of the movie

that keeps me from that, that I disagree with, like in the text of the movie that keeps me from, that I disagree with like in the text of the movie and that also like kind of holds me back of being like, well, but you know, it really, it turned. Like it just, it did. Let me ask you a question that I thought about a few times. Do you think a lot of the details of this kind of discussion will fall away

and this film will go into the canon? That's a great question. And does it matter if it wins Best Picture or not? If it loses Best Picture, is it more likely to go into the canon? Whatever that is, however loosely you define that. Well, who's canon? Yeah, I mean, I can't totally answer that, but like...

It's like our canon or like, KFI's, like Top 100, you know? The intersection of both. You know, the way that we remember... Chinatown. You know? I'm not saying it's as good as Chinatown, but just the way we remember. Another movie that I would say has flaws. Perfect script, great performances, has flaws, in my opinion. Okay. Listen, I didn't...

I know that you're just preemptively yelling at people on the internet. I know, I gotta stop doing that. I know, but that's fine. You're always allowed to find flaws in things on my watch. It's been so easy for us to say The Social Network masterpiece because it lost Best Picture to the King Speech, and so not only is it the synthesis of all these things we love, it's also weirdly an underdog now, relative to the way that movie history is codified by awards.

I guess so, though I think the thing that has made the social network great is that, I mean, it's less that it lost Best Picture, and more that Mark Zuckerberg and Facebook continue to be Mark Zuckerberg and Facebook. That has helped. That has helped. I think it's both, but anyway, ultimately do you, like ultimately, what do you think?

It is a long movie that's hard to see in the intended format. And I think that it might just not, I don't, even if it wasn't best picture, I don't think it will be seen as widely as many of the other movies that you just mentioned. So, I don't know, like in a film nerd canon, I think it's probably, like in the new film nerd canon, it's probably already there. I think that's the thing is, we think canons are made by the old, but they're really made by the young. Yes.

And young people, by and large that I've heard from, love this movie, in part because it's the first movie of its kind that they've gotten since they've been alive, since they've been interested in movies. Because movies like this don't come around very often. They can also acknowledge that it has flaws. They're not saying it's perfect. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But, you know, I just hear from a lot of listeners of the show who are under 25, under 30, and they're like, brutal boys, let's go, assemble. Let's do this, you know? And God bless them. They care about movies and they wanna see something. They wanna see somebody try to make something great. And so because of that, I think, I mean, we watched this year specifically with Interstellar.

Interstellar having a 10 year anniversary, getting re-released, doing great business at the movie theater with the re-release. You know, that's a movie that you and I, we were like a little older when it came out and a little more skeptical of, but if you were 18 when it came out or 10 or even 25 You'd have a totally different relationship to it. And so My gut is that it will be I think so especially if it loses to Amelia Perez

Yeah, we have to talk about Nosferatu But but then we'll come back to whether it's going to lose to a million press. Yes. Can I quickly add something about what I think the movie is doing? We're focusing a lot on the artist patron dynamic because of the format of it being cinema and we know, and Brady's talking about that a lot, so that is unavoidable to characterize the discussion. But I also think part of it, him and Mona, the script itself, just textually speaking,

they're interested in that being the lens with which this just unravels what America is. You guys didn't even talk about a lot of the B-roll that they were using about Pennsylvania. Pennsylvania is America. It's urban, it's suburban, it's agricultural. It is the state that I think the lore around it most accurately represents what like the

American dream would to be sold to an immigrant coming, particularly who was in the, like escaping the Holocaust in Buchenwald, like one of the camps that America did liberate eventually. And so like, I do think that a lot of the stuff that we're talking about, like Laszlo has to kind of be a cipher. And I agree with you, Amanda, that I actually was hoping to, like, occupy his mind a little more by the end of the movie. But I also think that that's kind of the point, like, what he says early on in the movie, like, the materials are supposed to show themselves. Like, that is the philosophy behind

brutalism. Like, cement is great. I don't care if you can see it. It is great for building buildings. And Laszlo actually says that. And so I think he ends up being a little bit kind of like a mirror for America. Like Van Buren is just America rolled into one character. He's all of the good, the bad, the ugly, and everything in between. The repression especially, because the relationship with his mom, it's sort of implied there's something sexually repressive going on in that. And I think that like we get caught up in this dynamic because it's like, okay, this is a movie and we can kind of think about the fact that there's an artist being represented in the movie as like a meta-textual version of the movie itself.

But also like, I think that they were swinging at something so huge and that's what I really loved about it. And that's what Sean, what you're alluding to is like, we don't get a lot of movies that are actually trying to like take down the totality of what America is. And that first lasting image of the Statue of Liberty, I do think that that is sort of setting the expectation. Like, I'm going to flip America on its head by the end of this movie.

I think you're, I think you're, it's a totally accurate and insightful reading. I think if you're ungenerous to the movie, and you think that the artist is self-interested primarily in the creation of the movie and you think that the artist is self-interested primarily in the creation of the movie, that the idea of America and American capitalism as this like all-consuming and destroying force is used in the same way that the Holocaust and Jewish identity is used, which is as a vector for a personal feeling. And if you are ungenerous, that's what you would say. Form follows function. It certainly does. And, you know, Anora, a much smaller movie in scale in some ways, is about the same thing that you're describing. It's about the relationship

between labor and wealth. It's about the relationship between sex and power. They're the same movie in so many ways. And there is like these transgressions against this character that we love who is an innocent and perfect, but also flawed. And how flawed and are they flawed enough? I don't know. We can debate that. But that mode of a story, I will slightly disagree with you that that idea comes across a lot in independent cinema. The idea that we are being crushed by the system that we are forced to live under is quite common. The way that it's communicated in this movie is not common. It's hard to do and complicated,

and it's also being suffused with all these other ideas that we're talking about, about integrating into the American idea. I totally agree with you about all the archival and the using Pennsylvania, and I think I rattled off the list of famous Pennsylvanians to Adam when we did the podcast. And it's just like the perfect snapshot

of how great and terrible America is simultaneously. Again though, like the movie stands up to all this. Like it is a useful magnifying glass for everything that we've said. What a joy, what a great thing to happen for movies that we can have movies like this. And it's not easy to pull it off. You know, I think there's also some, like,

legitimate conversation to be had about the $10 million budget, and that only being accomplished because nobody got paid on the movie. Which is like, sounds like a really noble thing until you start thinking about everybody who is not Adrian Brody and Guy Pearce who didn't get paid on the movie. And I have some questions about that.

And also, given the text of the movie. Exactly. Who makes money off of art. Yes, and you could say, what was the long range idea that if you make this movie great enough, that it will draw attention to how valuable these movies are and then people will get paid more on the next movie. But that's an insidious thing that is in the world,

the arc of art too. Like it's all there. Is there any ethical way to build anything in America at all? Or to do anything under capitalism? Under the dream that we're being sold? And I think the answer is probably no. Yeah, the answer is no. I think I'm a little bit less intoxicated with that specific idea

because I'm like, I made up my mind on that idea. Same. Like, I'm just like, it's bad. It's not going to get better. It certainly wasn't any good in 1947. And so it's, maybe it's not going to get better. It certainly wasn't any good in 1947. And so it's, maybe it's a little less chewy to me personally, even though I think you're a hundred percent right in seeing it that way. And I mean, I think that there's some like self-examination going on with that too, because I'm Brody is American, Brady is American.

You know what I mean? Like there is some sort of like inner repression of what it means to also have come up in this and lived in this that is being explored too, I think. Your point about him being parts of both characters or split between all the different characters, I think, is a valid one. And I think sometimes can explain why maybe parts of Laszlo feel a little flat. Because, like, you know, the part of yourself that you think of as the artist, it might be that one. That's just one dimension of you. Mm-hmm. How much of Laszlo is Mona? I don't know.

European. Absolutely true. They got that in common. Um, very good movie. I'm glad that you did not come in here and just like piss on it and say, what a stupid asshole made this. I'm not... I just... Jesus Christ. I mean, listen, I know good content, and I also...

I'm a smart person with a brain. And I never accused you of being otherwise. Nosferatu. Yeah. I'm very proud of you for going to see this film in the cinema. So I... Kind of the inverse of the conversation we just had. I tried to get you to take this off the episode.

Like, that was my... And then... I just want to hear you talk about it. I mean, well, yeah, here we go. So I did listen to your conversation with Chris and Rob. Rob, my mortal enemy, who's also a wonderful big picture guest. Uh, like, great, every single time. I love you and hate you, Rob.

And I think I netted out where all of you, and you, Bobby, all netted out, which is like, you know, incredible to look at. It is very hard to make a movie that's specific and detailed and beautiful. And there, but it is, it is craft. that specific and detailed and beautiful. And... there... But it is, it is craft. It's almost, it's an exercise...

rather than, like, an emotional connection. Um, you guys like vampires. Mm-hmm. So, not even, you like, I mean, you do like them, but they hold your attention. Mm-hmm. Whereas, I was listening to another episode you did recently. I was listening to the you and Chris half of Dumpuary.

Okay. And Chris tried to engage you, Sean, in a conversation about Chris Abbott's, like, car hurts and his wardrobe evolution in the film Wolfman. Mm-hmm. And you just like straight up liked him. You were like, I don't care about that. That's like not interesting don't care about that.

That's like not interesting to me in a movie. That is interesting to me, but like vampires and rats, like at some point you just like straight can't hold my attention. And at some point that is what happened to me with Nosferatu. I wasn't even scared. Sometimes I was like, wow, look at that camera

going up that staircase. That's very beautiful. And look at, you know, Lily Rose Depp with her tongue and her cheekbones. I thought a lot about her cheekbones and they are Johnny Depp's cheekbones, which is a little unfortunate, but she wears them well. So, but that is like where my mind was going because there was, I did not really feel an emotional core. You're thinking the technical exercise aspect of it.

At the center of the film. Well, Bob, in the notes you shared, I think a word that is useful in talking about it. How did you describe it? Airtight. It is so considered. And I think that this is Robert Eggers' style of filmmaking. And I think clearly a lot of people respond to it. And it's undeniable how amazing the craft is and how amazing it looked and how there's like maybe three people that can pull it off in this way. But I think it loses what I think the three of us

love about a lot of movies, which is like that little piece of magic that you're not really sure what's going to come next. I mean, the other word you used, Bobby, is sterile, which I thought was also very accurate. And I think kind of speaks to why I just, I couldn't stay focused. I got pretty involved in the second half

in the Lily Rose Debt performance, which I don't know if I did enough of a good job talking about. That's the one thing that kind of moved beyond, I guess, the sort of schematic aspect of the movie, because it is a remake. We do know the story, even if you've not seen the Murnau film. Like, you get the idea, you know?

And so it's not that surprising. I think getting interested in her, not just the convulsions, but feeling like a little bit more connected to that character and understanding how she was feeling and the way that she sacrifices herself. And then that final sequence, which is so amazing and so painterly. But for like long stretches of the movie, I felt similarly, I felt like it's elegant and certainly considered, and I have had people explain it to me this way.

I don't know what you dreamt of when you were nine, that was like your ambition, but this is what this filmmaker dreamt of. He dreamt of being able to make his Nosferatu. This was the thing that drew him to art and theater and film. And sometimes the thing that is like your first thing, you don't, maybe you shouldn't realize it. You know, maybe it's not, it's hard to break form from where you were when you were that young

and you were thinking about it. I don't know if that's true for him or not. And the truth is, is that the public doesn't care because this movie is huge. Like I'm personally stunned as a long, long time Eggers fan who is in fully since The Witch. In my wildest dreams would I have guessed that this is like a $200 million movie or $250 million movie.

You know, I do think people like vampires. And if you just wanna go see some weird shit beautifully rendered on a screen, which a lot of people do. And also, like, I'm not knocking that. That's great. And it is really well done. It just does not hold my personal attention. I think that's legit.

I think that's totally fair. I actually think that, like, I'm really glad that I did go see it, though, because of what you're talking about totally fair. I actually think that, like, I'm really glad that I did go see it though, because of what you're talking about. The Lily Rosette performance is like, that's genuinely electrifying stuff. And I think that that kind of is like the exception that proves the rest of the movie for me. Because when it's not...

I think a 10-minute reel could have communicated it to me, but that's okay. Well, you saw the Zoom audition that was going around. No! You didn't see this? This was going around on the internet for the last couple of weeks of her Zoom audition for the part because I guess they were maybe casting it during COVID potentially, but it was pretty authentic to the original audition, what actually made it into the movie.

Should we powering some movies? Let's do it. Okay, let's bring Joanna Robinson in. Okay, Joanna Robinson is here. We're going to power rank some of these Best Picture contenders, but Jo, we haven't spoken since the Academy Award nominations come out. Give us your gloss. What'd you think? Any surprises?

Anything you're excited about? Give us your gladiator too. Yeah. Thumbs up, thumbs down. In general, pretty thumbs up, I think. Pretty good. Yeah, pretty good. I would say the big headline stories for me are

Nosferatu overperforming. Made me really, really happy personally. Love Nosferatu. And I don't know, Sebastian Stan being in the mix is really exciting for me. I think the director lineup is really, really interesting. All first time director nominations, which is really, really fun.

And then my guy, like my guys Coleman Domingo and Yura Borisov being in here, which like was not a sure, sure thing, was a probably thing, but not a hundred percent, that thrilled me to my core. So you got a lot of what you wanted. I did. Anything you didn't get that you wanted? I think I didn't get that I wanted. You know, I usually, when the snubs happen, I usually sort of feel the sting and then put it in a box away

because we have other work to do, which is... That's very healthy. I don't do that. Figure out how to go forward from there. I don't know. There's nothing I'm dwelling on. Marion Jean-Baptiste, I guess. You wanted Sing Sing in Best Picture. I did want I guess. You wanted Singsing in Best Picture.

I did want Singsing. I did want Singsing in Best Picture. I guess I, I guess I have like ramped down my expectations to the point where I was like, Coleman getting in is my win at this point. So, I took that win. I guess, yeah, Marion, Marion Jean-Baptiste in Best Actress. Amen. I think, yeah, was, was...

I tried to move that conversation up to this episode, because that's how much I want to talk about it. But, uh... We just finished a long disquisition on the brutalist and the brutal movement. Um, so there was not enough room for hard truths. Amanda weighs in. Gable bang. Can't wait.

Why don't I have a gavel? I know. You have enough noisemakers for the show. Can you, um, can you bang the massive water bottle on the table? Does that work? Okay. Okay. This is gonna end up with coffee in my lap every time we do this. I saw a friend of ours recently, Tim Simons, and I brought the water bottle and he was like,

oh, the water bottle! Jesus Christ. Yeah. It has a life of its own. The famed water bottle. Somehow Chris was ejected from third chair in favor of the water bottle. What about you, anything like two weeks later

that jumps out at you that you've had some time to think on that feels right or wrong or that you're interested in in terms of the races? Mostly just that I don't know what's gonna happen. And so we're gonna do power rankings and I feel pretty sure about like I can block them, you know, like I know what's in the 10 to eight. I know what's in the middle.

I know what my front runners are, the tears, but I don't, I, I really don't know. I, and I, and like you, I find that like deeply frustrating and scary. I like to know things. I like to be right. Yep. That isn't exciting. You guys aren't excited by the mystery of it? What if we knew every single category was locked down at this point?

It would be so boring. I agree. I think throughout this season, I have pretended to be intrigued by that while also having some anxiety about not being right. But now that I know that no one is going to be right, really, because this is so hard to predict, and there's still a handful of very important precursors that will probably reveal a lot more to us,

and we can talk about that. I feel comfortable and excited to not know, because I'm not putting any money on this, and I never do. My predictions are my predictions. My track record over the years speaks for itself. I'm pretty good at this. If I suck this year, great, who cares? What's the difference, you know?

Maybe this is just about accepting middle life, you know, middle age. That's beautiful. You know, I gotta be content with the limitations. That sounds deeply untrue. Uh, yeah. Giving your reaction to being on House of R and like crushing us in our hype draft on our podcast, that sounds deeply untrue to me, Sean.

But I like the fiction you've created for yourself. Well, I also don't feel in competition with Amanda anymore, you know? I have more empathy for Amanda than I've ever had. And so some of this was rooted in, you know, but it's like, honestly, Amanda has two kids and I'm like, good luck to you, my friend. Like, I don't know what you're doing. That sounds tough. Meanwhile, I did think about what your punishment should be if I do somehow win the Oscar bet. Okay.

This happened because I ordered some new three pound weights. And so I think that you should have to do a video podcast holding them out for as long as you possibly can. Deal. I also ordered some one pound weights. Patreon can be like my new 2025 workout routine that I was doing with Bobby earlier. But you could also do the one pound if you want to try. I mean, I don't want to do any of them.

Okay. But I'll do it if I lose. Amanda, do you ever in a pinch just hold the water bottle out if you can't access your hand weights? Yes, I've done that before or like a can of like beans or something. Sure, sure, sure. But you know, I am not the most coordinated person and I'm trying my best every day to be healthier and you know, do my weight training like all the doctors told me the instant I turned 40.

Do you want to talk about what you just had for lunch? Oh, yeah. Well, that's not my fault. That's just that's the location. I had a fun-sized peanut M&M and a cheese stick. So, you know... You know, protein. I'm hearing protein. Yeah, in both. Yeah, caloric content, certainly. Anyway, I get nervous that I'll drop the water bottle.

Do you know? Or the can. Joanna, do you feel comfortable knowing the tiers? Because I'm not even totally sure I feel that comfortable. I know the bottom two, the top three, and then there's a messy middle. Oh, the top three. So let me just throw one wrinkle, which has been pointed out by a few of the pundits out there that I think is kind of interesting, which is that there's a case to be made that this year is starting to look a little bit like 2002. 2002 was the year in which Chicago won Best Picture,

but the Pianist starring Adrian Brody won Screenplay, Director, and Actor. Is it possible that we have a year that looks just like this in one of two directions? Could it be Brutalist for Director, Actor, maybe even Original screenplay. I don't think so, but maybe. And then either Amelia Perez or Wicked emerges as the winner.

No. Yeah, respectfully. Yes, Ann, no, no, let me do the rules of improv. When that happens, we will be running this back, Joanna, and playing it on the show. No, okay. Well, I was with you until Ann Wicked. How about that? That's what I was this back, Joanna, and playing it on the show. No. OK. I was with you until Ann Wicked.

How about that? Or I said or. That's what I was going to say. Yeah. Certainly not Wicked. Not Wicked. Certainly not Wicked. Yeah.

Ann Thompson is the only pundit who, coming out of the nominations, who has been doing this a long time and knows a lot about the Academy, was like, this was a great nominations day for Wicked. Even though they didn't get screenplay Tons of craft. It is everywhere. Yes. Yeah, I didn't totally see that. We didn't talk about it We haven't texted about it I don't know if Katie saw it that way for example Like but and on a couple of different pods pointed it out and I was like, okay

I'm just gonna put in the back of my mind I mean that is true But I think every nomination in craft that Wicked got, Emilia Perez also got. Very true. And we can, I mean, also Dune is showing up all over the crafts as well, and we all probably have Dune at the bottom of our list. Right, so like.

I know that was hard for you to say out loud, Jo. It was, but I said it. And you know, I believe in truth telling on this podcast. No, I just think truth telling on this podcast. No, I just think that the wicked conversation doesn't make any sense to me at this point, just at this point. But, and also it's tough to compare this year to 2002 because there's so many things are different.

It's a different voting body. And- Ranked choice, we didn't have that back then. Right. We're gonna talk about, uh, you know, some of the controversies surrounding this particular year in campaigning, but Harvey Weinstein's shadow looms so large

over that Chicago win that it's really hard to replicate what happened there, uh, in any other year. But that is a great segue to what's happening right now, which is that we are in the midst of one of the most fervent smear campaign seasons we've had in a long time. Alright, speaking of smear campaigns, we've all been educated in the past weeks and months about how they work in 2024. I'm speaking of course of Baldoni and Blake Lively.

Yes. So I agree with you. I mean, people are out there working and posting. And we have the Fernanda Torres blackface scandal. We have Carlos Sofia Gascon's old tweets. Old tweets, yes. Tweets, which again, I just like, Netflix is sponsoring that film, like, Delete the Tweets. But I have never understood that.

And then at the start of the campaign is what I'm saying. It's clear that some people who were not previously very famous get famous and don't remember things that they did five years ago. That clearly is what happened here. But I just don't understand if anyone in PR is repping you, why step one on the introduction to being in the spotlight isn't go delete all of your old tweets.

Yeah, that's a fair point. It's a fair point. introduction to being in the spotlight isn't, go delete all of your old tweets. Why is that not step one? It's a fair point. It's a fair point. The brutalist, of course, with the AI controversy, which keeps going. What else am I? And Nora, the lack of an intimacy coordinator. That was an early one in this stretch.

Right. And then Amelia Perez was also under the AI umbrella. Right. And then also the Amelia Perez. I don't know whether you can count... This is not smear campaign, but there has been a pretty organized detraction of its portrayal of both trans characters and Mexico, which I think are legitimate complaints. But there's a short film that's being passed around.

So that is like people doing the work. Guys, I watched it. Do you watch it? I haven't seen it yet. Give us the review of what is it called? Remind me what it's called. I don't even remember. I'm so sorry. I don't remember what it's called, but maybe you could look it up while I vamp and say that it was put together by a French creator and it is a musical, sorry, it's put together

by a Mexican creator and it's a musical about the French experience through the eyes of this Mexican creator, spoofing the fact that Emilio Perez purports to represent Mexico when it was created by a French person. And the opening dance routine where the music is, I mean, Emilia Perez has things going for it. I do not think this is the best, like catchiest musical musical, shall we say? The songs are bad. The songs are bad.

The opening musical number where the song is basically on par with, I think, the quality of the songs in Emilia Perez has people in striped shirts, berets, they have little ratatouille rats. It's like all the stereotypes that you can think of, of France. The quality is janky, but the intention is kind of funny. The name of the short film is Johann Sacher Blue. Right. But so, that is an important part of the campaign, and everything that we just mentioned has been getting its airtime.

People are out here. But who is seeding these campaigns? Qui bono? Who benefits? Well, it's not just that. Well, that's what I would say. Is it because obviously Harvey Weinstein, in addition to many sexual crimes and assaults, was the key of just like, I will take out all my competitors. Can we trace all of these to direct competitors?

We can't, I mean, we can't officially. I think that would be a little bit difficult to do publicly. I think there's a mix. I think it's a mix. Or is it overzealous, not overzealous. I mean, this is the way the internet works, but is it people on the internet? It's Stan culture colliding with strategies.

Exactly. I think it's both things happening at the same time. Now there are literally online armies seeking out some of these materials, while also there are, honestly, people in the business who do this. They design XQ campaigns. You know, the Blake Lively, Justin Valdoni version of it is very unseemly and very ugly and very public.

This stuff is relatively more harmless because of the frivolous nature of awards, but some of the things that are unearthed are pretty gnarly. Yeah. It's ugly stuff. It is very ugly stuff. I'll tell you one movie that is completely unaffected, and I'm not saying that it's responsible for anything, but it's fascinating how unaffected it is

because it feels like the most old school nominee, and that's a complete unknown. Sure. Which got eight nominations, which was a little bit of an overperformance, including in many key categories. We just, sure. Which got eight nominations, which was a little bit of an overperformance, including in many key categories. We just saw Timothee Chalamet, honestly just smoked the fuck out of Saturday Night Live.

Yeah, he's a star. We all know that. That was just fabulous. As a Bob Dylan super fan, I salute you. The song choices, the oddity. Obviously he's a multi-time SNL guest and is always very funny on the show. Has a real knack for it. LaGuardia high school kid that he is.

And that's the other lingering thing is like, we were doing the, could the second, the movie at number two win, and we were talking about a Nora. And now I'm like, what about a complete unknown in that movie? Thank you for bringing this up because we did that podcast at 730 in the morning after the Oscar nominees were announced. And so I played the game wrong. And there was one listener who reached out to me. I would say it was like, it wasn't mean, the correction. It was like neutral.

I could have used a little more friendliness in our year 2025. You know, like it's still January somehow, like help us out. But so- For six more hours. Yes. No, more hours. Yeah. No, there's another day.

Isn't there? Is there? Oh, there's 31 days. 30 days, half September, April, June, and November. Yeah. I mean, it just keeps fucking going. So what is number two on the Dune ballot is the question. What is number two on the one?

That's a perfect question for you. Yeah. Oh, for me? Yeah, if you're dune one. If I'm dune one, I might be substance two, honestly. Ooh. Oh, interesting. I can see that.

You think you're a complete unknown to, perhaps. But I think that the problem with this mudslinging that we've just sort of recapped is like, yes, is it rising to the level of being reported in the trades? Yes, it's not just Brazilian Stan armies, you know, on Twitter, you know, spamming things. This is being reported in deadline and variety, et cetera, et cetera.

But is it really, really rising to the level of effect impacting Academy voters? That level of controversy. I don't think the AI controversy made an impact, and I'm not even sure this particular mudslinging. Perhaps, I mean, Carla's direct involvement in the Amelia Perez, I'm Still Here, Back and Forth, is certainly not doing her campaign any favors. But Netflix and Zoe are staying completely silent on this, I think, just to sort of keep their noses clean. So the question is, yes, it's nasty and it's brutal,

but it all feels a little bit more surface than some of the sort of Deep State Harvey moves that we used to see. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. And those campaigns were more coordinated and seeded and they often had this, not just a veil of controversy around an individual associated with a movie, but about an ahistorical quality of the film. That was often the way that he would lean into these. And this has not quite pursued that same thing. Generally speaking, I don't know if any of the single shots

have felled any campaign that had a chance to win at this point. The Carla Sofia Gascon story, which is extremely fresh in our minds, it just happened today as we're talking about it, because she's so central and is the titular character in that movie, feels like the most, it has pierced the armor of that movie. And when it won Best Musical or Comedy, she gave the emotional speech at the Golden Gate. I also, yeah. I also think that, um, that movie was the most vulnerable to being impacted by something like this.

Yeah. I agree. For a couple, like, Netflix-based reasons, um, but also just, like, the run-up has felt so ephemeral and confusing to people. And it's all, it is a little virtue signaling as a vote, I think. I think there is a camp of it who are like, we espouse what we think this movie is about. Mm-hmm.

Right. And of the like, green book variety of like, we think we're really doing something here, and perhaps we are not doing what we think we're doing here. Correct. Does Conclave benefit from any of all this? I think so. I met a Conclave, like Stan, in the wild.

And I was like, oh, actually I met too because my friend Molly's dad really into Conclave. Oh, exciting. So he's not a voter. Man of the cloth? Okay. Yeah. Not a man of the cloth either. No, I don't think so.

But he's just a guy, A guy who likes conclave? Yeah, just a conclave guy. A conclave dad. But I feel like... And maybe we can go through, but like as our 10, 9, and 8, if you think about where their second and third vote would go, it might be to conclave. It has a little bit... I mean, it is a crowd pleaser.

So... As a matter of course, mean, it is a crowd pleaser. So... As a matter of course, let's recap where we left this off. So before you return, Joanna and I did this on December 20th. And this is where we netted out well before the nominations were announced. At number 10, we had Nickel Boys.

At number nine, we had A Real Pain. At eight, A Complete Unknown. At seven, Dune Part Two. At six, Sing Sing. At five, Amelia Perez. At four, The had A Real Pain. At eight, A Complete Unknown. At seven, Dune Part II. At six, Sing Sing. At five, Emilia Perez. At four, The Brutalist. At three, Wicked. Two, Conclave.

And one, Anora. It's been 40 days since then. And we have been in the desert. Um... We obviously missed on two titles here. Yeah. Singsing did not make the cut, and A Real Pain did not make the cut.

I'm still here, did, and what else am I forgetting that made the cut? Substance. Substance, which Katie lobbied for back in November, and then we took off. I hope she feels, I hope she feels, I know she feels quite smug about it. She was like, well before the Golden Globes,

well before. Yeah, you were resistant to this for a long time. You finally did, you did predict it like the week before the nomination. I did, but for all the reasons I talked about when we talked about it in August, which is just there's literally no history of a movie like this getting into Best Picture. It's never happened in Oscar history. So it is in that respect a watershed moment.

I think very exciting. It's not my favorite movie of the year, but it was in my top 10. So I think we erred there by not sticking to at least Katie's guns in that conversation, Joe. But that was a pleasant surprise. I'm still here. Did we even talk about it on December 20th?

No, we talked, I think we talked about, we might have in a larger context talked about Fernanda. Like we definitely talked about her, but I don't think we talked about, we might've in a larger context talked about Fernanda, like we definitely talked about her, but I don't think we talked about the film at all. And both The Substance and I'm Still Here, feeds into something that Amanda's always reminding us of is just like, bear in mind the international vote, bear in mind the international vote

and bearing in mind the international vote, does that mean we need to take the Golden Globes more seriously than we've been taking it? Because it used to be Golden Globes is something of a precursor for one reason, but now is it a precursor for a different reason, which is this block of international voters. I think we can all agree that the Demi narrative

coming out of the Golden Globes helped push the substance into this category and the Fernando win also. So, it might be a little bit of a chicken and egg scenario, but I think it's important to always listen to Amanda, I guess, as the, Ed Katie. Maybe not always. It's a big world, you know?

It is a big world. Well, I wanted to ask you both about this too, because that point that you're making, Joanna, is interesting and I'm not sure if this is just a coincidence or maybe a signal of how things are evolving within the Academy, but all five best actress nominees appearing in best picture nominated films almost never happens. In fact, it's usually a standout performance in a film that does not get the same level of applaud at least from the Academy.

So for now- It was in the 1970s the last time they had all- Is that the last time that was the case? Yeah. Yeah. So, Fernanda... Was it the 1970s, the last time they had all... Is that the last time that was the case? Yeah. Yeah. So, that's crazy. I mean, 55 years is a long stretch. So, anyway, I'm not sure what that says, but one thing that is notable about that Golden Globe split is that Fernanda was the only person who's nominated now

in this category competing in drama, and all four of the other nominees were all competing in comedy or musical. So, it's a little hard to even know how strong Fernanda Torres is, except the movie got into Best Picture. Right. Yeah. Which is still very surprising to me.

But it got into Best Picture, and I think we should celebrate it being here. But I think because it was not nominated for screenplay, editing, or directing, it belongs at the bottom of our list. You think it's 10? You think it's 10? Yeah. It's either that or Dune. I'm happy I would. You think it's 10? You think it's 10? Yeah. It's either that or Dune.

I'm happy. I think it's Dune because I do not underestimate the Brazilians. Dune also did not get directing, screenplay or editing. Are you sure Nickel Boys isn't in 10th, guys? But I think the fact that Nickel Boys made it in and did get screenplay. It got screenplay.

It's like there is awareness and movement of it. Like it's inclusion to me signifies something. I don't know how it gets in. I guess it got in screenplay because that category isn't that strong this year. It should have been in cinematography. That's the thing. I don't understand that.

But also, Rommel getting sort of snubbed in directing was a big, a lot of people were really bummed and surprised by that. Yeah, they wanted that. Whereas I, and I feel less so the case with my love, Dene. You know, like I feel like I was disappointed that Dene wasn't in there, but I think more people really wanted Rommel Ross in there

than they wanted Dene in there. Respectfully, the writing was on the wall for Dene pretty early. It's a damn shame. Okay, so I'd like to just roll with you guys. You guys can help me guide this. So you think I'm still here at 10 and Dune at nine, or not Dune at nine? I would Dune at 10. I think Dune at 10, and I'm still here at nine.

Do you like Dune part two? You do. You do. Yeah, I had a very nice time. We all saw it together. Van yelled, like, oh damn, when... That was a great time. The guys, they float. If you were in Paul Atreides' shoes, would you choose Zendaya or Florence Pugh? Oh, wow. Um, well, I kind of forgot what his shoes are.

So he, there were like a lot of prophecies that he's gonna, like what? Florence Pugh, hot princess political marriage. Zendaya, marry for love, marry for the people. Well, but doesn't he also know he's gonna like... Don't spoil anything. Okay, I stopped. Okay? What did I tell you? I will block you.

I haven't read June Messiah, unlike you. I will block you. Block me from what? Sitting beside you on a biweekly basis for the next 25 years? I just thought he kind of knows that he has to pick Florence Pugh. So it's more about survival versus... That doesn't answer the question of what you would do. Well, I would be Rebecca Ferguson.

So I've been planning this all along. It's that, listen, it's a mother of a son. Both of those movies have come out when I was pregnant, and I have really, really connected. But my follow-up question is this. Do you feel like you're going to be able to sit there and podcast on a bi-weekly basis, wearing like 20 tablecloths at any given moment?

I mean, at this point in my quote-unquote YouTube career, I would welcome having a uniform, you know? Okay. All right. Uh, we love a YouTube career here at The Ringer, don't we? I'm 40 years old. We love to swath ourselves in tablecloths in order to podcast. Chris was onto something with all that layering.

He's just hiding, you know? At a certain point, he's just gonna be all blanket. Um, okay. Joanna, if we go Dune Part II at 10, I'm still here at nine, onto something with all that layering. He's just hiding, you know, at a certain point, he's just gonna be all blanket. Okay, Joanna, if we go Dune Part II at 10, I'm still here at nine, what do you say is the last in the eight, nine, 10 coordination? Nickel Boys. Nickel Boys, and you agree?

Yeah, I think that's right. Okay, Nickel Boys. Okay, seven films left. Many people say there are six films that could win. How many films do you think can win? One, two, three, four, five. You agree with that, Joanna? You think four?

Okay, so then what's at seven, six, and five? Or rather seven and six just for the sake of this conversation. I guess seven is, I would say wicked. What would you say? Sure. Yeah. It's say? Sure. Yeah. It's only got editing. Yeah. It doesn't have directories to play.

I think also, okay, so the people who are voting for Wicked first, well, I don't think that there are enough of them. So that's really all that matters. I was trying to play it out with number two. But I guess like no one who's voting for Dune is going to put W out with number two. But I guess, like, no one who's voting for Dune is gonna put Wicked at number two. I could be wrong about this, but I think I read that the last time a film did not have nominations

for directing or writing and went on to win Best Picture was Grand Hotel in 1930. Okay. So that puts Wicked in a very difficult position. Mm-hmm. That's why it's at the bottom. Okay. So Wicked is seven very difficult position. That's why it's at the bottom. Okay, so Wicked is seven. Number six. Substance.

I agree. Do you think the substance is that strong? I guess it does have a lot of nominations. When I said I think that five movies could win, then in the back of my head I was like, actually, then watch the substance win and maybe totally wrong. As I do think that the substance could be six.

I don't think it's gonna win either. That would be fucking crazy. I don't think it's gonna win either, but listen, like nothing is rational anymore. It's too divisive. I don't think it's as wide of a field as we're worried it is. I think it's a much more narrow field,

but yeah, I would put the substance next. I also think it's at six, but. Okay, so what are your five that you think can win are what's here now. So Joanna, if you think it's only four, then what goes into the five spot? Uh, complete unknown. Oh man, I'm not convinced. Yeah. I'm not convinced.

I don't think, I don't think Conclave, I don't think Conclave is, I think the director snubbed for Conclave and the fact that Stanley Tucci didn't get nominated. There's a lot of things that just sort of make it look like... Conclave is likely a favorite to win in screenplay, right? I think it's going to get a screenplay win. But it's just nominated for screenplay in editing. The burger snub feels really pointed. Right, so you're saying that Conclave is five.

Yes, sorry. I thought you were saying complete unknown is five. Oh, no, I think you asked me that and I misspoke. Conclave is five for me. And then complete unknown. I think I agree with that. You don't agree with that? I think I do too. But I'm just thinking through it.

Because the director missed for Conclave and Mangold getting in. In addition to Mangold getting screenplay. And Barbaro and Norton. I don't know, that movie... You could top me in it being top three right now. You really could. Over... Not over Anora.

I kind of think it might be. You don't think so? I don't think so. Just because... Okay, I... It is it might be. You don't think so? I don't think so. Just because... Okay, I... It is very old Academy. It doesn't really look like a movie that would win Best Picture right now. Based on what we've seen with, you know, Nomadland and Moonlight and movies that like,

you know, everything everywhere all at once. Like, a complete unknown is something very traditional. It's a good version of traditional, but it is. I mean, what's true about Enora, and I think it's a good version of traditional, but it is. I mean, what's true about Anorah, and I think it's worth noting, is that it has very little below the line support. So that's a tough beat for Anorah. But I think it's silly to ignore directing, screenplay, and editing as these bellwether

categories. And since Anorah, Brutalist, and Emilia Perez all have all three, I think it's silly to keep any of those out of the top three. But I'm happy to put complete unknown... That's a persuasive argument. It is. And I think a lot of people think that Sean Baker has a strong chance to win editing. Okay. And he cuts all of his own movies. Yeah. So that, you know, editing has historically been a bellwether. I'm not as obsessed with that correlation as I was maybe three or four

years ago. I think Ranked Choice has kind of fucked with that a little bit. But that's true. It's just the only exception to something like Birdman where they mistakenly thought there wasn't any editing in that heavily edited movie. But other than that, editing is like one of the strongest precursors for a best picture win. So the thing I'm having trouble with with a complete unknown is like, I can't, I can't group it in terms of the ranked ballot. Like, I don't know what the other movies that a complete unknown stand is going for and vice versa.

You know, like, is it number two on a Dune person's ballot? Are there movies that a complete unknown Stan is going for? And vice versa, you know? Like, is it number two on a Dune person's ballot? Is it number two on a Nickel Boys' ballot? Like, I don't think so. But I think Conclave Wicked, Dune Part II, these are Hollywood movies. They're big productions. They're all about, like, a certain kind of classical craft.

And so in my mind, I see those movies as all sort of grouped together. And so you've got a producer who's been working in Hollywood for 40 years, who's a member of the Academy, who's a 62-year-old man. He probably likes to complete a note. It could be number two on a lot of Wicked Ballots. I think I was grouping Wicked and Amelia Perez in my mind, but maybe... I think they're different. I do think they're very different. And I think then there's also the Netflix factor too.

And that, you know, that's a streamer movie, and none of these other movies really are. Nickel Boys is Amazon, but I don't think it's seen that way because it had a theatrical release and yada yada. I'm willing to ride your editing point and say A Complete Unknown is four and a Nora is three. What do you think? I'm good with that too. I like, you know, the history teaches us. Look how high Complete Unknown has come. Like that is...

Amazing. I don't think we had it on our list in November. It's a part of it I think is like, you know, the strength of the traditional Oscar movie, the Bob Dylan fandom that's out there, Timmy doing a masterful job in the campaign and all the rest. Mangled getting into directing is a bit surprising

and unsettling for me, but I liked Complete Unknown. It just doesn't feel like a very splashily directed movie. Do you know what I mean? But someone was pointing out to me, and I love this, that I think it's, how many of the directors, all of them, are screenplay and directing? Or wrote and directed their films. Yes, that's right. Which I don't think is great,

and frankly, a lot of writers seem frustrated by. Because it... I think it's fascinating. Who was it? I think it was Michael Weber, the screenwriter, who pointed out on Blue Sky, that the job of writing a movie for a director is so complicated. And that reaching a director's vision

while also maintaining your own point of view and artistry is very different than a writer-director coming in. Like, for example, Mangold was very open about talking about how he rewrote Jay Cox's script. Yes. Yeah, yeah. That was adapting the Elijah Wald book. He just said it. He just said it at a Q&A in front of press. He was like, I just took this, I read this script, I liked it,

but I was like, I wouldn't do it this way, I'm gonna do it a different way. Just his right, obviously, as an artist. But then now he and Jay Cox share this nomination. Because Jay Cox built the house and then James Mangold redesigned it. As opposed to Spike, not Spike Jones, Charlie Kaufman writes a movie and then some filmmaker goes off and makes that movie. They're just different jobs. And so I thought that delineation, I hadn't totally thought about that delineation in that way. And it made me wonder if we, if we're an increasingly tourist academy.

Yes. Well, it's similar to similar things are happening with the Emmys. There was like a run, you know, where like you would get wins for like Phoebe Waller-Bridge or Donald Glover's, these I'm sorry, like these like star slash creators of their own show. And that's that's sort of a trend you see over on that side. And so I think it is an interesting, you know, do we award someone for being the most, the most nominated, you know, sort of thing. And I mean, obviously, Amelia Perez hopes those, but you know, I just think that's really interesting stat this year.

So we'll say a complete unknown is at four. Anora is at three. Anora, which got six nominations, all six that it needed to maintain some presence at the top of the heap. And then Emilia Perez and The Brutalist. Now, they've both taken on controversies in the last couple of weeks. Sure have.

We've just had a long conversation about The Brutalist. I mean, the thing about The Brutalist is that I still don't know how widely seen it is. And yes, it's on the Academy portal and everyone's job to watch it, but will they, you know? Yeah. I mean, that's a real big if.

I think it has the votes of most of the people who make a point of seeing it, certainly over Amelia Perez. It's like a pure, it's a numbers thing. I think there's a couple of what-ifs or confirmations when the precursors come around. Yeah, yeah, yeah. For example, if The Brutalist wins the PGA's,

I think it's over. Yeah. I think The Brutalist will win. If it doesn't, I don't think it means it's over for The Brutalist. Agree. I think any other movie could win. If Enora wins PGA, which I don't think it means it's over for The Brutalist. Agree. I think any other movie could win. If Enora wins PGA, which I don't think is gonna happen, but if it does happen, then I'm really gonna be thrown for a loop.

Okay. And I'm gonna think every race is going in a lot of different directions. Are you able to share who you voted for? Yeah, it's just my... If you look at my countdown list, it's the order of my... I always do the order of my list. So The Brutalist would be one, Nickel Boys would be two, etc. Okay. I don't think BAFTA best picture figures in as much in this race

because I think Conclave is going to win. Yeah. But if it doesn't win, that could also signal something. Okay. I think I don't totally know what's going to happen with SAG, but it could be wicked for SAG. And that could just end up being like the Hidden Fig figures win where it's just like, people like this movie and it's a great ensemble,

but it doesn't indicate best picture or it does. Or that feels like another place where it could be Amelia Perez. And if that happens, you'll see a lot of people start predicting Amelia Perez. So this is kind of a, it is a fun set of precursors here that may or may not deserve, what do you think, Joanne?

I've been over-complicating this and I'm trying to simplify it in my own head. As is often the case at this time in the campaign, we get spun out trying to, I think it's neck and neck between The Brutalist and Emilia Perez right now for a number of reasons. And I don't, I earlier in the campaign, I was like, there's no way Amelia Perez is gonna make it

as far to be a front runner in the Oscars. And I was wrong. And so I don't want to count it out when it has just won again and again and again. But we also have the history of the over nominated but never winning Netflix movie. And so if this goes down the power of the dog, Mank Roma route, should we be surprised by that?

We shouldn't be surprised by that. You know what I mean? Because we've seen it time and again. I'll have you know Mank won cinematography, Joanna. So how dare you? Eric Messerschmitt, his Oscar lives on. But not to say no wins, but not to say just because it gets all the nominations means it's a done deal. The Irishman did not win an Oscar.

Over 10. Yeah. So for right now, I'm putting the slight edge on the brutalist. What do you think? But it's a slight edge. I mean, I'm where both of you are, where it seems pretty neck and neck. I do think...

I think actually both movies appeal to an international voter because, as we discussed, it is a very European view on America. By it, I mean the brutalist, even though it is made by an American. I do think there is just something to the undeniability of Emilia Perez. Like, you know, we should also point out that since you guys did the last list, we have a new president and he's not exactly been friendly to anything. Yeah.

On the one hand, yes. On the one hand, yes. If we want to talk about the Resistance Oscars, obviously, like, we could talk about that. to anything. Yeah. Who'd you vote for? Yes. On the one hand, yes. If we want to talk about the Resistance Oscars, obviously, we could talk about that. But I also think The Brutalist, with its critique of what American industry does to artistry, you know, I won't talk about specifics, but I'll just say that like... It's a great story. It's also a great story.

Yeah. I mean, yeah. You can just say Carrera, and I think, like, we know. Yeah. But I think that, like, I think... Emilia Perez is the more obvious sort of, you know, we're trying to stand for something vote, but I think the Brutalist is also there.

And then the Brutalist also has the advantage of being in that Oppenheimer bucket. And we talked about this before on the big pick of like recognizing the great genius of a man and how that is like an important narrative that the Oscars really like over. I think it's the reason why you don't often see best actresses nominated for best picture nominees because stories about interesting women aren't necessarily what the Academy thinks is the best picture. And so I think when it comes down to it, if you're asking me what do I think the Academy, even this new international body Academy is going to vote for,

I think it might be the story of the misunderstood maligned male genius. the misunderstood, maligned, male genius. I buy that. I think you're right. I do also think looking at, like, our 10 through 7 or 10 through 5, I think the brutalist will be higher on the ballots of most of those people than Emilia Perra as well. And I think that's sort of the... That's ultimately the decider, right?

Because it's collecting votes in later rounds. The other thing to consider on the Netflix front to contradict myself is that as opposed to previous years when Netflix had like such a spread of nominations, they would often do well in the documentary or they would have, you know, like a second or third, you know, nomination floating around. Maria and the piano lesson are sort of out of the game. So they're not having to like focus their attention on running in like an Angelina Jolie best actress campaign or focus on the documentary category, which they usually focus on or anything like that.

They have all of their resources to pour into this concerted Amelia Perez effort. So. It's not as though they were light on resources in the past. Yeah. I'm not saying that. I'm just saying like if you're slightly split focused and then you're not split focused at all, then that's somewhat different. Do you think this is the closest they got or was Roma closer or was Power of the Dog

closer? Roma felt so close. Really, really close. Yeah. Roma felt so close. Really, really close. And Roma also felt like people really, that was like the anti-Netflix vote. Sentiment. Not the anti-Qarun sentiment. Exactly.

I think it's, I still, there's a part of me that won't let myself believe that the brutalist will win because I, and while I respect what you're saying, and I think Oppenheimer obviously does look like an old version of the Academy celebrating a great man, Oppenheimer just had the Christopher Nolan it's time thing going in such a heavy way. And it was a $980 million movie.

Like there's really never been anything like Oppenheimer. So it had a lot of, it was not, it's not the only reason it won, but I think it's like, it was a factor was a factor. A factor. But if you look at the three previous Best Picture winners before that, which really constitutes kind of the new Academy, I think it's most clearly, it's Everything Everywhere All At Once, CODA, and Nomadland, which is like such a strange trio.

All three female-centered stories, smaller movies. I refuse to use the Nomadland COVID year as an indicator of anything. That was such an outlier year. Yeah, I do agree that that's an asterisk, but then the year before that is Parasite. So that was also indicative. Which is also very unusual. But at least, you know, we can hold our heads high

on that one. Right. So I don't know, I mean, it's good because it's, I feel like it's helpful to use historical context as a prism to look through the future, but it's not. Like it's not. Everything is different. Ten nominees now, 10,000 Academy members, ranked choice voting, more international

body, yada, yada, yada, yada. Everything is different. So, I wonder what this will tell us about it, if anything. Or if it'll just be a randomized sequence of events, just like everything else in life. Do you want to, out of superstition and in order to protect your own heart, put the brutalist second so that it gets to be like an underdog story? No, because I'm not rooting for it like a fan or something. I think...

You don't have the Brazilian flag in your Blue Sky bio? No, because I mean, I think it's a pretty good collection of nominees. I think I would be extremely annoyed if Wicked won. Emilia Prez I don't think should win and I don't love that movie at all. And I think Netflix winning at this exact time in entertainment history is complicated. I wouldn't feel good about it. Everything else on the list is a movie I either like or love.

And I can't say that in a lot of Oscar years. So it's not like, you know, if Enora wins, Enora is great. Big fan. So number one movie of the year for me. If a complete unknown wins, I would be happy. It wouldn't have been my choice, but I couldn't be like furious about that. Big fan. So, if a complete unknown wins, I would be happy. Like, I would be happy... It wouldn't have been my choice, but I couldn't be, like, furious about that.

It would be a little bit like Billy Crystal coming back to the Oscars, you know? I would just feel warm and cozy. Yeah. I would feel great about that. I just, I... I don't want it to seem like I'm out here just banging the drum against Emilia Perez. I just think it would be a... I think it would be a bad win. And I think the Brutalists or, which isn't a movie I even like loved entirely, but I admire so much

more than I admire Emilia Perez or Complete Unknown or Inora or even Conclave. You know, I just think that's a substance. They would be, yeah. Keep going. We gotta get to number seven for me. Yeah. So yeah, there's... Can I tell you that I finally, I met a real Amelia Perez fan in the wild. No, tell us. My father loved it.

Wow. My dad, like in the middle of like my two children like trying to eat the phone was like, hey, I loved Amelia Perez. It's like a new opera. And my dad is like a loves opera. And so I said, okay, you know, I can see that. I think that that is probably like the best, the structural, you know, idea defense that you can make of the movie.

But then I said to him, okay, but the songs are really bad. And then his response to me, he was like, go back and listen to some Verity and then give me a call. And I was like, sir, it is eight in the morning. Like, we're not gonna be throwing shots at Verity. But yeah, I guess that's one opera guy who does have a penchant for hot takes.

What was his take on its portrayal of trans identity in 2024? No, we didn't get to that because my son was like, here's a truck. OK. OK. I guess the question I have about all of this, big pick, hosts, is what's the best for movies?

What's the best for the movies in terms of a win? We talked about this a little bit with The Brutalist that I think a movie like The Brutalist inspires something hopefully in the future of movie fandom and movie making that I think is very valuable. But I think Sean Baker does the same thing. Sean Baker is an independent filmmaker

who does not waver from his point of view. He works with a very small team. He never spends too much money. He's gone up, up, up, up, up quietly in his career. His movies are always interesting, even if you don't like them. And a win for someone like him is a good story and good for movies.

A Complete Unknown is a little bit more of just a straight up industry story, where it's like a biopic of a famous person with the biggest young movie star in America and the steadiest hand in Hollywood. But it's not bad. I mean, but I think what Joe is asking is like, what's good in terms of the Osc...

What's the best in terms of Oscars as like an ambassador, you know, ship for things that we love, which is like, the answer is none of these. Nothing. Nothing. Yeah. Do you disagree? What's, what would be the movie that would be the answer? Nothing. There's no, there's no good option. It wasn't that kind of a year.

It wasn't, I really was not that kind of a year. I don't think. It doesn't feel like a year where when Titanic wins, you're like, this is it. This is what- Or, you know, it wasn't a Barbenheimer year we had at the year before. Yeah, yeah.

And I mean, there are a variety of reasons why that happened. It doesn't, I'm not, I don't think I'm, I'm not trying to criticize any particular movie by saying that, but I don't mean, there are a variety of reasons why that happened. It doesn't, I'm not, I don't think I'm, I'm not trying to criticize any particular movie by saying that, but I don't know if there is a movie that represents what this all could or should be. Right. I mean, all of, almost all of these movies, if they win, I will get a text from like the non-movie friends in my life being like, what is that? Should I watch it? You know, which is just, and then the answer will probably be like, I don't want your angry

texts after you do, so no. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it depends. Yeah. You know, it's Enora maybe, you know? That's not true. One of my friends, Katie, who is normally texting me being like, what is this, did watch Enora, loved it,

and also wanted me to know that she recognized the strip club and thinks it's a very good strip club. That's sick. Yeah. And then was mad when I didn't give her enough credit for it. So, Katie, here you go. If we're thinking about movies that would anger our non-movie friends if they watched it just because it won Best Picture,

Amelia Perry is the brutalist and the sub... No, no, the sub-substitutes are popular. I think Nickel Boys is there too, which is a movie I would love to see seriously in it, but it's a movie that many common moviegoers are like, what the hell? Like, I don't know how to do this. But it's definitely number one and two. Like, these are the movies that would... would irk people the most if they're just, like, sweeping in.

And I think to the Resistance Oscars question, if Emilia Perez wins, the Oscars are immediately... I don't think they want that, because I think it's immediately going to be clarified as like woke Hollywood rewards movie that even woke people can't agree on, which that could very well be the outcome. Right.

I also, as we always should like to look for, and there's something I should have brought up with substance earlier, always look for a movie that can make Hollywood feel good about their own jobs, their own industry. And I think it's only the substance, which is about celebrity, which is about existing in Hollywood, is like something that's a movie about being in movies

to a certain degree. The brutalist I think you could say is in that it's a movie about artistry and artistry struggling like bumping up against cynical industry, I think could appeal to a lot of artists. Yeah, but how many of the people voting, because it's not just directors and actors voting, it is producers and every single below the line line category how many of those people are watching and thinking yes I am Laszlo Toth and how many of those people are watching and thinking yeah, okay

You think you're Laszlo Toth, but I'm like dealing I have to deal with your shit every day I think that below the line people I mean I think that's a really I Always like to look at the movies that were nominated heavily below the line because in the below the line people could say like, yeah, this represents our craft, what we do. And so I think the Brutalist does appeal, both Amelia Perez and the Brutalist appeal in that regard. Whereas, Enora doesn't. So, yeah.

Okay, I'm going to recap this list that we put together. Okay. This mess? This is our second to last power rankings before the Academy Awards. Oh wow, okay. We only have one more in February. Number 10, Dune Part 2. Number 9, I'm Still Here. Number 8, Nickel Boys. Number 7, Wicked. Number 6, The Substance.

Number 5, Conclave. Number 4, A Complete Unknown. Number 3, Enora. Number 2, Amelia Perez. And number 1, The Brutalist., and number one, The Brutalist. Is this the first time The Brutalist topped the charts? I think so. Yeah, we had Enora up there for so long. We did.

And I believe Brutalist was four last time it's since been released. One other last point that I thought about is both The Brutalist and A Complete Unknown undermine this story that had been happening over the last five years of the December release. Don't release your movie in December. It's too late. Right.

And in these two cases, and they were different. One was a festival movie that came out in the fall. One was held all the way until late November before critics and Academy members saw it. Again, it's a strange year. That happened because there was sort of the vacuum. And he finished it in June. Exactly.

Yes. Right. And, but also, Anora won the Palm and everyone was just like, okay, Anora, do, do, do, do, do, I'm waiting for some sort of challenge. And it just didn't really happen. But if you wait until December,

you take the risk that someone swoops in, in October and is like, I got this. Very unusual year. So maybe not any lessons to be taken from that. No, the lesson, sure, we can maybe take that. You can release it late in the year lesson, but I'm just going to do one last love letter to Dune and say, don't drop your movie at the beginning of the year. People's memories are too short. Except for everything everywhere all at once.

That's the counterweight to that. But that came out even later. It was March. It was. It was maybe early April. It premiered at South By and came out veryweight to that. That was a March movie. But that came out even later. It was March. It was. It was maybe early April. It premiered at South By and came out very shortly after that. I know it came out at South By. Yeah, maybe it was early April,

but it was very early in the year. So I don't know. The thing is, there's no playbook. Everything that we used to think is evolving every day. Well, how do we do our jobs? Well, we don't know any. This is why I said I have to have empathy for Amanda and not worry about winning anything

Because I don't fucking know. I'm just some guy holding weights, you know, well, I think I'll win the Oscar bet So I'm not as worried about that. Yeah the director thing. I just got one thing in my favor But you know, I won't lord it over you. I'll just make you take a beautiful photograph in front of my collection. Okay, great Maybe you can be there that day, Joanna. You can join us in the media library. I would love to. I'll be in town for this award season. I'm excited.

I'll be in LA. Are you going to parties? Probably not. That doesn't sound like something I would enjoy. You make it sound like you go to parties, which you do not. No, I was like, maybe I want to go to some parties after we record with Joe.

But then I thought about how tired I would be. We could go to the bar. The three of us could go to the bar. I mean, that does sound fun, but it's like, you know, sometimes parties are fun. They have past apps and I like that. All right, let's wrap this up. Do you want to go get in and out

of the Vanity Fair party with me? Yeah, I would do that. Joanna, you have 900 pods. I'd like to encourage everyone who listens to podcasts to listen to all your pods. It's really true. Like getting on Joanna's calendar is tough work, and we appreciate you making the time for us.

Thank you, Joanna. Always a joy. ["Sundance"] Thanks to Joanna Robinson. Thanks, Amanda. Thanks to our video producer, Jack Sanders. Thanks to our show producer, Bobby Wagner, for his work on today's episode next week on the show We're talking about Sundance. You went to Sundance one night only. Yes, you saw how many films one you saw one film

I'm watching Dozens of movies virtually over the next four days. We'll come back and talk about them an equal partnership. Just like the brutalist You are airs you bet in this equation? I guess so. Anyhow, and then maybe Nickel Boys as well. Yes. We'll get into it, which we hope more people are seeing every day. Go see it. Go see that great film.

We'll see you then.