The Big Picture - Best Picture Power Rankings and The Rock’s Oscar Bid in ‘The Smashing Machine,’ with Benny Safdie!

Episode Date: October 3, 2025

Sean and Amanda get in the ring with Van Lathan to go multiple rounds on Benny Safdie’s new film, ‘The Smashing Machine,’ starring Dwayne “The Rock” Johnson and Emily Blunt. They work through their mixed feelings by recognizing the phenomenal performance from the Rock, which makes it worth the price of admission alone, and their disappointment and frustration toward Emily Blunt’s incredibly one-note character (1:49). Then, Sean and Amanda create their new Best Picture power rankings following the fall film festival season (36:18). Finally, director Benny Safdie joins Sean to discuss his new film and explore his deeply intimate experience making the movie, why the Rock was perfect for the part of Mark Kerr, and the challenges of shooting a combat sports film (53:44). Hosts: Sean Fennessey and Amanda Dobbins Guests: Benny Safdie and Van Lathan Producer: Jack Sanders Unlock an extra $250 at linkedin.com/thebigpicture Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

I'm Sean Fennacy. And this is the big picture of conversation show about smashing machines. It's October and the fall movie season is here. Later in this episode, I have a conversation with Benny Safdi, the writer and director of the smashing machine. When's the last time you saw Benny, Amanda? Just before he won the Silver Lion in Venice, he was, he was weeping, but like with joy. And then he was at the end. after-party, which was honestly the best party of Venice. So thank you, A-24.

Benny did not weep in our conversation, but we did talk about his career as a director, working with Dwayne the Rock Johnson on this film, and how it's an extension of the TV work he's been doing in the last couple of years. I hope you will stick around for our conversation. But first, Van Lathan is here. I can't wait, guys. Midnight boys, higher learning, the rewatchables, tailgate. Triggering people everywhere. I can't wait to trigger you guys. Yeah, it's going to say, smashing machine, but also what's on your docket? We can talk about whatever. I've been making a lot of movie news recently.

Yeah. We're going to get into that movie news very, very shortly. This episode is presented by LinkedIn ads. Sometimes marketing gets wasted on the wrong people. Like if you see an ad for movie themed dog sweaters when you don't even have a pet. Reach exactly who you need with LinkedIn ads with a network of 130 million decision makers they can help you target by job title, industry, company size, or even skills. It's one of the reasons LinkedIn ads generates the highest B to be. return on ad spend of all online ad networks. Seriously, all of them. Try it out. Spend $250

on your first campaign on LinkedIn ads and get a free $250 credit for the next one. Just go to LinkedIn.com slash the big picture. Terms and conditions apply. Okay. Let's start with the smashing machine. So as I said, written and directed by Benny Safdi, this is based on a documentary called The Smashing Machine, The Life and Times of Extreme Fighter Marker, that the action film filmmaker John Hymes made it some years ago. It stars Dwayne Johnson, Emily Blunt, MMA fighter Ryan Bader, Bass Routen, MMA legend, Alexander Usik.

Yeah. In an interesting performance. Yeah. Like, I saw his... And it doesn't know who that is. I'm like, uh-huh, uh-huh. He is the undisputed heavyweight champion of the world. In which, like, discipline?

And boxing. He is legitimately one of the greatest fires of all time. Oh, that's exciting. And he's a movie star now. He's a movie star now. Sort of. Not a lot of lines in English in this film. But nevertheless, it is essentially a period piece about a fairly brief period of time in Mark Kerr's life.

And it looks on the surface and from the marketing materials like a standard athlete biopic. Right. A triumphant story of someone overcoming incredible struggle to rise to the mountaintop of their sports profession. And that is not what the movie is ultimately, in my opinion. So I'll start with you, Van, because Amanda and I did get a chance to talk about this a little bit after Venice. What did you make of The Smashing Machine? So I was not at all familiar with the story of Parker, right? So I was waiting for, in this movie, a moment of pronounced high drama or violence or just something that made,

this story something that told me why they were telling this story like this guy honestly this is going to

sound so bad throughout the whole movie I thought there's something violent and tragic was going to happen to Emily Blunt's character

yes throughout the entire film to the point to where in the moment where she actually goes and grabs the gun I'm like

oh my God here it comes and that got full gasps in my screen for me as well that is like the

the highest stakes moment also the moment when the movie turns kind of what you expect on the audience. Absolutely. So the film becomes even more interesting to me that that actually doesn't happen. Yeah. The movie is actually just about a guy who is in a really violent, shady world, but is in some way has a regular temperament.

are my expectation of boxers and all of these guys is that they have some sort of extraordinarily resolved how can i say this that there's there's always something that makes you want to hurt somebody right there's always something that makes you someone who can dole out that much punishment um and it comes from something that's like inherently broken inside of you i know a lot of bosses i know a lot of fighters this is very one note and that a lot of movies are about fighters, if they're not exploring their great list like Ali or something like that, or kind of exploring the thing that made this person, parts of their personal life, that were so broken that made them great in the ring.

This movie is just exploring the frailty of this guy who happens to be a fighter. And like all the twists and turns that happened to him as he's trying to deal with addiction, as he's trying to deal with a somewhat dysfunctional relationship, as he's trying to deal with this friendship that's very important. but also is putting him at cross-purposes with someone he has to compete against it's just kind of like a quick slice of life of this and at the end

I was actually delighted by the movie and I didn't think that I would be. I was like, just kind of a nice, regular guy that happens to beat people's face in for a living and that's why the title of The Smashing Machine is actually even kind of like a subversion of what the movie is about.

It's almost tongue and cheek. Yeah, because that's not what he is. He is a walking, vulnerable, open wound. Everything affects him. He seems to be trying his best to be decent. And I don't know, I was affected by the performance. I was affected by the movie. Halloween is on Disney Plus.

Hello. So you can feel a little fear. What's this? Or a little more fear. Yeah. I see dead people. own a lot of fear or you can get completely terrified

Choose wisely with Halloween on Disney Plus Not a perfect movie by any like nothing happens I mean that's my review I think I watched it very similarly to the way that you saw it and came with like a slightly different conclusion

because there are a lot of amazing moments and scenes in this movie. The gun moment being one of them, that cactus scene. I think all of the fighting scenes are like very beautiful and, you know, which is a fucked up thing to say. But I think they are supposed to be beautiful and something that you like watching. And then you're like, why do I like watching this? It's a question.

People ask themselves about MMA all the time. incredibly artistic. But it doesn't, like, as a collection of moments and I really liked it, but then as it does not have a story. And then because I don't know a lot of boxers, I don't know a lot of MMA fighters, I don't really, you just had to explain to me who the heavyweight champion is. So I think I am maybe not ultimately that invested in the slice of life. And then it does also a couple things that irk me, including I would just like to talk about Emily Blunt at some point and what she's doing with her career. But this was a tough one for. But I've thought about that primary note of the movie.

Yeah, of course. But I've thought about that cactus scene like many, many times. It's really funny and revealing and sad to your point and like a great characterization of a person who has like and who is not just a nice guy that he has. has, that's like the best demonstration of his demons or whatever is going on inside him. Do you know what scene I thought about a lot in the movie? I don't know why I related to this character so much. Maybe it's from being like a big guy

and people expect this stuff from you and really you just kind of like want to watch Star Wars with someone hugging. You're a gentle giant as well. Right. So the amusement park scene is the one that stood out to me. That to me was interesting. And so they go to a fair, which I never ride rides a fairs.

Yeah. I don't do it. Yeah. Because they seem unsafe? The ride has to be permanently attached to the ground. I preach. If you can bring the ride up and then take the ride away, I don't trust it. Okay.

It has to live there. It must live in rides. This is a strong take. I know I was having this exact conversation at like a neighborhood fair that we went to with our children recently. I'm 100% with you. Oh. Yeah. You know who doesn't agree with you about that?

Children. Children would like to get on those rides immediately. They're like, hey, the colors, let's go do it. I'm like, so they're going up to this ride and it's like. The Gravitron. The Gravitron. So they're going up to this ride and he is telling her, look, I don't want to ride this. I have a week's thought.

Yeah. It's the rock. I believe he says my tummy. My tummy. It's the rock. It's like, it's the rock. It's this gigantic, hoking, peak human meat eating. tear animal apart person.

You know, I can't ride this. My tummy, he's also fresh out of rehab, right? Yeah. And she really wants to ride it. She really wants to get on the ride to the point to where she becomes annoyed with him at some point. He tries to negotiate it with the carny and say, hey, can I stand in the middle of the ride? Do I have to be? He's like, no.

When she gets into the ride, the scene of her riding it is interesting. her entire life seems to be exhilarated by danger and risk like and she is nailed it man that's what that whole scene is about and she's separated from him she's separated from him she is freed from what she thinks

her attachment should be and she is turning upside down on the ride she's going sideways on the ride the thrill and danger of it is just completely taking her over whereas his is in safety he wants to feel safe

because he's in danger professionally professionally when he's not doing it he wants to feel safe he is outside of the ride feeling completely a little bit embarrassed that he couldn't meet what she needed and she is inside by herself like reveling

in the fact that this thing is throwing her all around and that she's loving it and I just I was like that's the movie the movie is this guy who puts himself, who likes to win, who likes him, who likes him, it's not that he doesn't like what he's doing.

He's not fighting for a grandma that has cancer, he can't get money, he likes to win. Right. But even in the first scene, he hurts someone, and then he is overly concerned or uncommonly concerned with the condition of that person that he hurts.

Yes. And it's a weird play to me, a weird morality play about humanity. That was the only thing, though, that was consistent in the whole movie. Like Mark trying to come to terms with his frailty. Other than that, you keep waiting for something to happen and then the movie ends. Well, so Benny made a very conscious decision to recreate a lot of the documentary. And one of the reasons why it feels like we're just kind of slowly moving through these steps in these people's lives is because he is, it's not an entire recreation.

but if you watch the doc, you'll be surprised by how much of the scripted film matches, the documentary. And it gives the movie a very unorthodox feeling. And the thing that I've been saying since I've seen it is that it is very much a spiritual sequel to The Curse, the TV show that Benny, Emma Stone, and Nathan Fielder made for Showtime 18 months ago, which like not a lot of people watched. It was right as Showtime was essentially being wound down

and folded into Paramount Plus. Very unusual show. Probably like the smallest thing Emma Stone will ever be a part of. But I Yeah, Maniac was on Netflix Yeah, I mean a ton of people saw that I just feel like very few people even saw the curse But the curse also

Which had a slightly different satirical tone But was also about performers Behind the scenes You know, because it was about this sort of like aspiring HG TV style host And her husband This sort of like house flipper House designer people

And a documentary filmmaker Who was going to join them to make a TV show Played by Benny Safdi And it was set in the desert and had this kind of odd ambiance and this sort of like elusive jazz score and this like fly on the wall

feeling with the way that it's shot like you're not really supposed to be there like you're not supposed to be seeing what's happening here and it's strange that someone allowed you to observe these conversations, these disputes and the only time when it felt big is when in the curse

when they were making the show that they were making and in this case when they're having their fights but even the fights which you said you thought were beautiful are shot very differently than most boxing movies for example

because the whole time the camera is outside the ring and the whole movie is about alienation and you know Mark Kerr trying to be like other people but is kind of incapable

of being like other people one because he has this extraordinary ability to hurt people and two because he's so big right and he's trying to be gentle it seems like he takes up so much space wherever he goes

that he is always trying to stick his hand out to everyone and be like, look, there's no weapon. Like, when he's in the hospital, the lady's looking at him, he's, you're probably wondering what happened. Let me explain to you. Yes.

I like that scene. And the whole nine, and I'm like, look at the extraordinary lengths that he's going to to explain to this woman that like, this is the reason why I look so beat up. all of that collating all of that stuff together

makes for a really vulnerable moving impactful and noteworthy performance from The Rock and a movie that I really liked but a movie that I'm going to understand why people don't fuck with it if they don't like it. Yeah. Like a movie that's not conventional. It's not conventional.

It's not like ultimately like satisfying in a way. Right. You know, like it doesn't. I was very taken aback by the conclusion. Yeah. I was like, wait, what? I do want to talk. talk about that, but let's wait a little bit.

Let's talk about Rock. That's what I was going to say. Let's talk about the Rock. Because he has literalized, I think, something that many commentators, fans of his, have been saying for 10 plus years, myself included. This is an obviously, not just insanely charismatic, but insanely gifted performer. He was insanely gifted as a professional wrestler. He was insanely gifted in the early stages of his career, obviously just as like a showman, a salesperson.

Like, he's just good at selling movies. He's good at being in the public. Yeah. And his taste has just been terrible, like, abjectly terrible for like 20 years. He's been making movies that you and I, like, even though they're big movies, like, don't spend a lot of time talking about. I have not seen Black Adam. Sorry. Yeah, I saw it. Yeah, I know.

We did a, no, we didn't, did we do a funny pot about it? I think so. No, me and Charles did. Yeah, yeah. Me and Charles and Mahoney. But, I mean, really, quite a bad movie. Quite a bad movie. But there are others.

I mean, there was the Amazon Christmas movie last year. I have seen Jungle Cruise. Starring Dwayne the Rock Johnson and Emily Blund. Yes. I mean, there were even more anonymous, lower stakes, bad movies like Kevin Hart comedies in the last 10 or 15 years. You didn't like Central Intelligence?

I did not. I thought that was funny. Okay. I mean, a lot of other people did, too. That's the other thing is that he's been very successful. So it's not that he's been making flops. He's been making big movies. But there is at least a part of me.

Call me a snob, whatever. I think he was capable of more. And I know because I... He doesn't even like the fast... you know, five and six movies. Oh, man. You get to it. Yeah.

I don't. I mean, it's kind of like when you buy that, sometimes you buy a ticket to a movie and it's like making a deal with the devil. You go in there and you accept all the sin and you walk out and the deal was that you you got what you wanted was to watch the car fly through space. That's the, sometimes you just got to watch the car. I didn't like it when they went to space, but I liked it when they dragged the safe through Rio. After a while, those movies become what more.

silly shit can we do? And that's kind of what they've become. This is the thing about the rock. In a lot of ways, what we're talking about is him thingifying himself as a performer, being a thing in a movie and not a person in a movie. The rock is like a thing. It's an entity. It's a force of nature. It's not an actual person. Like you can't hurt the rock. The rock doesn't have emotions. I struggle to think of a movie where someone like him has taken a role that was this needed to display his capability. And how can I put it? This is the perfect role for him to change opinion about him because he is gigantic. He doesn't lose, he didn't go machinist, He doesn't lose

I mean it kind of has sense but He kind of has sense He didn't show up in Venice But I will say he's 53 years old Playing a 25 year old Right Kind of credibly Kind of pulling it off

Right But when you watch the movie He does something I never thought Can help it He does something I didn't think He was capable of He melts the rock The rock melts

Yeah The rock melts into a actual character A actual person Like after a while You're watching it And obviously his voice sounds the same he looks but you feel like you're actually looking at the rock play a character and commit to the dramatic energy of a character for an entire movie he doesn't smile his way through it he

doesn't quip his way through it he doesn't flex his way through it he commits to that and he melts the rock and becomes mark cur and i did not know if that was possible for him at this time in his career because of how larger than life his persona is it's also the the casting and this choice of role are also playing with the idea of being the rock. And so you're watching him work through these issues as Mark Kerr. And you're wondering, okay, so how much does this relate to who you are as the rock? How much does this relate to who you are as like as a performer in other movies? You know, what are you bringing to this? You are thinking actively, or at least I was of how

are you thinking about the relationship between like Mark Kerr and the Rock and what do I think? So let me like try to add a layer to that which I think I'm sure some people know this but one of the more interesting aspects of working on

the Mr. McMahon documentary that we did with Netflix a couple of years ago is what was that now? What did you guys do? It was a long exploration of Vince McMahon. I didn't hear about it. Go ahead. I'll check it out. it's pretty good

Chris Smith directed is great great if you haven't seen it but so inside of this like portrait of this guy he's like a portrait of all of the superstars that McMahon helped to shepherd and create and so in the rock story

is really interesting because he is a wrestling Nepo baby his grandfather's high chief Peter Maivia who's one of the first you know wrestling stars his father is Rocky Johnson who's really one of the first

major African American wrestling stars and so the rock after playing college football at Miami hits the scene at WWF at the time and internally they think he's going to be an instant star they think he is going to like challenge to become the top guy

in the company and he flames out incredibly in fact the fans can smell the like him being forced on them and they reject him and they start chanting Rocky sucks every time he performs and he gets like rejecting he has to go away for a little while and then they redefine his character and bring him back as a bad guy.

And he becomes a big star by blending this kind of heel character that he develops with some heroic qualities. And then that dovetails with this moment in the late 90s and the 2000s where like anti-heroes are cool. Bad guys are cool and they're more fun to root for. And so the rock is like this swaggering, you know, fast-talking, arrogant showman. That's the character that he developed that makes him so famous. And it evolves over the years with him as a wrestler.

but it's kind of the inversion, I think, of his movie career. Where in his movie career, he kind of starts out being like, I'm the Scorpion King, I'm the biggest guy in the room, I'm a huge action star, I'm taking over the fast franchise from Ben Diesel, I am the center of Hollywood. And over time, people are like, okay, like, you know, it's the same old thing. And now he has to go like smaller, more sincere, more warm, more human. Right.

In this movie to be accepted... And it's interesting, like, it must be strange to be The Rock, you know, to be thinking about your own persona to the world in a way that is very unlike even the biggest celebrities in the universe because of the nature of how we've seen him over the last 30 years. Yeah, it's similar to the character. It's kind of about what you believe about yourself. The Rock has, you know, his movie career, he starts off with, you know, the rundown, the Scorpion King. And then he does go Go goes to Duane Johnson route for a while And he tries to take on roles

They challenge him a little bit more He does some I think he was in Southland Tales He does a couple of different More experimental movies Where he's trying to test himself a little bit And people It doesn't

People don't fuck with it Doesn't hit It doesn't work Painting gain That movie doesn't really take off Even though it's That's a good performance Yeah so but he then

Okay You guys want the rock I'm gonna give you the rock That's it. Like, you got, okay, cool, that's what you want. I'm going to give you the rock, and he does and he does that. Now the question is like, how long can this person who is such a gifted performer eat? But is also such a people pleaser, you know, and really.

He's a professional wrestler. Yeah, well, and, like, his essence and his stardom and his understanding of himself. And, like, even the, you know, you tell the story about him taking over during, when, like, a screening. Yeah. And just, like, working the crowd because. He wants to give the audience what he wants. There's what they want. There's like a bit of Tom Cruise about him.

And as a wrestler, he was raised on either getting pop or getting heat, you know, getting like either a huge positive response or huge negative response. If you get no response, you failed. So he's trying to create energy with everything that he's doing. Yeah. And he's like kind of lost energy in the last five or six years. Lost energy and was at a crossroads so maybe overstated. We talk about these performers at crossroads.

They're ridiculously successful in all of that. you know, whenever the rock does interview, he has to answer questions about whether or not he's going to try to become the president so that that's... I think he brought that on himself. Probably. That's the level of star that he's at. And the level of like politician.

You know, like he is in retail politics. My husband interviewed him for GQ. That and like he remembered every person in our family's name. You know, like he remembered details about us off of like two seconds. Like he was like working it. You know?

what I mean? Like he has that. There's a reason he became who he is. Exactly. Yeah. I just want to say something about that joint right there. Yeah, yeah, yeah. To all the Hollywood stars that are listening to this exploding podcast with all the most famous people, the I remember your name game. We're hip to it now. We're hip to it. Oh, yeah. But I still appreciate it. I don't. Oh. The more human thing is to demonstrate that you don't remember, that you're an actual person. What was your name again? But make eye contact when you ask you, and we were talking.

But like now the story is. You always say one thing on a podcast whenever I'm with you where I'm like, you pulled that out of my head. Now the thing is when I've been at a couple of tables where somebody has come around and they've like,

hey, you did this and you did this and you did. I'm like, yeah, I'm van. Yeah, I know you know. You're the guy from CNN. Yeah, yeah. Shut up. Yeah, yeah. Like, I know you know.

I know you know. It's now you come off like, like a swarmy David Copperfield type of illusionist when you do it now. I'm going the other way. Amanda, it's wonderful to see you again. How are your children?

How are your children going? That's literally what he did. How was your credit score? You were telling me it's by what is 70, 78? I'm going the other way on this. I mean, like, never be a creep. But like, I've had too many preschool parents being like, wait, who are you again?

And calling my son Max for like the third time. I'm like, get the fuck out of here. And then they, like, come on, have some social skills. Okay, I get it. But I just, people, I was at a thing one time. Just like, who the fuck are you? Other preschool mom? Somebody was coming around.

Calling me mama because you can't remember my name? Just like a double, double fault? Like, get out of here. Okay, we, different losses. Somebody's come around and I'm like, you know, can we just sit down and do the thing? I don't need you to do the thing where you know all of us in our life stories. But that's what they do. That is a thing.

And he is the king of it. He has like, he has made. That's somebody else who's the real king. Okay. The real king, the man. Are you going to say who it is? It's Tom Cruise. Yeah, I mean, but there is a lot of Tom Cruise-esque in his, like, I'm doing this for the audience, I need to, the people pleasing, you know, and the definition by the audience.

But what I'll say is for these people that are doing it, I don't think there's anything nefarious in it. What they're trying to do is show people that they are putting effort into remembering you and your story and make a connection. There is a little bit of Christ-like representation, you know, the idea that, like, I am just like you, but I have been fortunate to be imbued with the extraordinary wisdom and power to elevate us all. Like, that is part of the, and that, I mean, honestly, I kind of want that from a star. I don't want them to be cult-like, but I do want them to represent on screen this feeling of excitement and power that you can only get at the movies. Like, that's the whole point. However, as famous people slide between professions away from movies and into other spaces and when there was that moment, when it was like, would the Rock actually run for president?

I think a lot of people got really queasy because it just feels like this continuation of something that's been happening in American politics. And so that power can be misused. Of course. And also he has like no political stances or opinions whatsoever. Right. It's kind of like what you don't want at a time when things are so fraud. But in getting back to this movie,

what you think is that that perception of someone as a celebrity when they get to that point, that it will negatively insulate any emotional attachment that you can have to them in any way as a performer. Like that Tom Cruise is perpetually Maverick or Ethan Hunt,

and now we're going to see if, you know, he's kind of, he's got some stuff. Can he get outside of it? Can he get outside of it? And with the rock, because there hasn't been, a performance that you could lean back on and go, wow, that guy was fucking amazing in that.

There are some performances that are good, right? But where he was, you almost don't expect that he could do what he did in the movie. I'm not saying in the movie that you guys are about to sit down and watch Lawrence Olivier, Denzel, Washington, or... No, but he captures the character. He gets into something. Did you feel like he got it?

Yeah, I did. But what I was going to say, he also has the ability that Tom Cruise does, like, to be Dwayne the Rock Johnson in a movie is like a commodity that I want to see in movies as well. You know, like that kind of movie star presence, even if it's like as Maui or whatever, that's who he is in Moana. In Moana, I mean, a great performance. Just a voice performance. Right. But that is a great performance. But there is that kind of like ringleader movie star holding the center of the frame.

thing that, like a power that he has that not everyone has. And he's trying to obviously shrink it down in this movie, trying to be quieter, trying to clip his speech in a way, trying to be this calm, deliberate person that you were describing in the beginning of our conversation. I think it's really, really successful. I think it is the reason

to see the movie, in my opinion. The challenge with the movie for me is Emily Blunt, obviously, I think her being in this movie helps a movie like this get made. She's also close friends with The Rock. Yeah, they're cool. And because of that, you can see why they wanted this to be a partnership.

To me, the entire approach that Benny takes as a filmmaker is a little bit undermined by the presence of Emily Blonde, who's a very famous actress who looks just like herself and is not really changing that much. She's not transforming in the movie. Well, she's wearing prosthetic breasts. Okay, I didn't, I didn't pick up on that. Yeah. I was just kind of, I was along for the rise.

We were appreciated. Yeah, she looks gorgeous. And how dare you look for a negative? That's right. What was a couple of positives? You know what? We need to honor the artisans. including the hair and makeup people.

They changed his face and they changed her breasts. Honor the artisans, honor the breasts. That's what they say at the campaign time. And the prosthetics are also, she looks like herself, but she is playing against her type, you know? And you told me that what she's playing is very close to the documentary,

but she is playing, you know, like we Americans have associations with her as like a posh lady with a British accent. And... A little trashier. She's a little trashier person. Yeah.

Yeah, and she's styled as such. And then she's also just cast again as, like, the shrewish wife. Yeah, the nagging wife. And I just, that is fucking depressing for someone who is so talented and, like, and smart and funny and doesn't ever get to do that anymore. And to go back to the scene that you were talking about earlier with the gun, like, it actually doesn't pay off in dramatic terms. Not at all. If you were going to take that part, you'd say, okay, you know, there's, there's. something really wrote about this, right?

We've seen this a bunch of times. We've seen you do this a couple of times already. But if you become... You met Emily Blunt, not me. Because you did just like... If you, Amanda, we'll do this again. I was in a lot. No.

We've seen Emily Blunt do this before. She got criticized by some for Oppenheimer, her work. I just, that's... It's boring. She's great. Let her do great things. That sucks in that. Bring in the towels or whatever the fucks.

The sheets, great. Who gives a shit? How dare you? I don't like my baby. Baby. Like, okay. Big mad. Big mad. She is really talented.

Give her shit to do. Give her real shit to do. I saw two one-note female performances this past weekend. Uh-huh. Uh-oh. We're going to get there. I'm saving space for that. Right.

But this one was... You're referring to Kristen Wig and Gabby's dollhouse, of course. This one was particularly, like, after a while, I was like, I, man, she's going to be a drag in every single scene. She's not going to remember how he likes his smoothies. She's not going, in every single scene, she's going to make it about her. There's one really good scene with her, which is when he asks her to take a photo of him and Usick together, where you see that she is outside of his perception of this stage of

his life. That scene, I thought, was really, really smart. And it is an invention. It's not in the documentary. But I was like, maybe this movie could have been even. more invented because that was a scene with an idea. And there's even conflict in that scene, right? Because

the conflict in that scene is whether or not she's being irrational for not wanting to take a picture of a bunch of guys that are boxing, fighting buddies or whether or not he's being insensitive for not understanding

that she feels alienated from being outside of a bubble that he is in all the time. Right. So when when you step away from that scene, it's not clear who the asshole in that scene is. And that's kind of the thing that the movie does with them back and forth. It doesn't give you a real idea of who the asshole is until you get to a point to where she is clearly the asshole. And it doesn't seem like that character actually earned that.

It seems like it comes out of nowhere over and over and over again with no good motivation only to be an emotional cog. in the propelling his character forward. And that's kind of dehumanizing and one note and not very well thought out at all. And unresolved at the end too. You know, she comes back in the prologue text thing. Yes.

So to me, the reason to see the movie is for Duane Johnson. And I think it's very successful in that respect. I think part of the challenge of the blunt character is that you don't feel like you're slipping inside of Mark Kerr's life in this surveillance style because Emily Blunt is on screen and you're like, that's Emily Blunt

and she's not disappearing but anytime that there's a major fight sequence anytime when there are quiet moments with Marker, I thought specifically him having to negotiate for his fee from the Japanese promoters the scene where he is trying to get painkillers.

All of that stuff. That stuff is really good. They're just giving out the Advil like candy. Because remember now, he is a fucking you keep, that's another thing from the direction, I haven't really talked about that. You keep waiting for him to be like, give me my fucking.

You flip the table over. Or I'm going to rip your goddamn head on it. And he never does it. And the movie is able, in a safty type of way, the movie is able to continuously build your tension and your deal. But it never does it. And so there's this emotional manipulation that happens where you keep getting up and keep getting up and keep getting up and then you settle into what you're watching. And it makes for a really interesting emotional film-going experience. But every single scene where there are a couple of scenes where he does.

He does rip a door off his hinges. Right, yeah. But you keep thinking it's going to a different place, but like it's just a profile, almost in a documentary way, of this guy. Yep. And the guy is complex. Where he's talking to his friend and he's in the hospital and he's trying to make it like things are okay and he breaks down and he cries.

You guys, I know that the rock crying is such a subversion of the rock's character that it's almost like a cheap trick. it works so well. I agree. Because you're like, look at that little baby, 280-pound destroyer of a baby who's just a person that doesn't know what to do. It just, it worked.

It's a very good performance from Ryan Bader, too, who's also not an actor and as a fighter. And he's very effective in this movie. I thought so as well as he seems very natural. Like, who is that? That's too. Yeah, yeah. He's his trainer, yeah.

Oh, right. Yeah. They are all like really good. But it almost feels like, once again, that's another testament to the directing because the movie is giving them things that they know that they can do. That's right. And putting them in positions to so many times you watch a film and you see a bad performance and you go, I know this actor is good. That seems like that's on the tone, the direction, and just the overall execution of the film itself. Yeah.

This movie doesn't have this problem. Everybody is where they're supposed to be. Okay, you go, we're going to powering some movies because you need to do that. Thank you. You are the man. Appreciate you guys. Okay. Best Picture Power Rankings.

Okay, let's do it. We have to dive into it because I'm getting real close to having seen everything. There's a handful of outliers here, but this has got to be the earliest I have felt like I see the board in some time. Okay. Let's just do last month's rankings because it was one month ago that you were still in Venice, and I was just returned from Taylor. We did these rankings that night? Yes. When you were podcasting three drinks in and you were beaming.

You couldn't have been happier. It was like one and a half, but it was six drinks. And you did great. You were very cogent. Thank you. So number 10 was Jay Kelly, which just had its premiere at the New York Film Festival. Yes, it did. Number nine was wicked for good, a film we still have not seen.

Number eight was sinners. Yes. Number seven was one battle after another, which we had not seen. I think we saw it a few days later. Number six was it was just an accident. Number five was no other choice. Number four is Marty Supreme, which we still have not seen. Number three is House of Dynamite.

But he's reportedly three hours long. Yes. Okay. Number two is Hamnet. Yeah. And number one was sentimental value. Right. Now, I would say this has changed pretty dramatically.

I would agree. You've seen some things. I have now seen no other choice. Yes. I've now seen House of Dynamite. I have not seen Marty Supreme yet. I have not seen Avatar Fire and Ash yet. I have not seen rental family

which premiered to pretty soft news. You're going down into our, you know... Our honorable mentions, yes. I have not seen sentimental value. That's next week after New York. I have not seen... It was just an accident.

And I have not seen Wicked for Good because they have not shown it to us yet. I haven't seen train dreams, haven't seen the Springsteen. Neither of us have seen is this thing on. I think I will see it next week. Okay. And then the last thing that I just saw this week

was The Testament of Anne Lee Which was just picked up. Acquired by Searchlight. We did it. Searchlight, I just read, and someone can correct me if this is wrong, but I believe six of the last eight best actress winners have come from Searchlight films, which is crazy because Amanda Seifred's going to run

in Best Actress. Now, I don't think anybody's beaten Jesse Buckley for Hamnet, but Searchlight, after the relatively soft reception of rental family, and the unknown is this thing on. and may not have a Oscar movie so Testament of Anne Lee

which I thought was very cool and we'll be really exciting to talk about on the show because of the wildness of it is an interesting late entrant Yeah, Yasi Salek really wants to come on the Touchment of Anley episode Yeah, that'll be great

I would love to have Yassie for that I think that she saw a very Yassie-coated movie if ever there was one So that's fun that that's there I don't know that that's a best picture contender I think it's a contender in other categories Yeah, performances.

Yeah, maybe music. You know, you could see the Daniel Blumberg's score. There's some original songs that are composed there. So we will see about that. But I don't know if I feel totally comfortable with that. The one thing I'm going to say is I do think we can kind of pretty comfortably start with one battle after another at number one. That doesn't...

You do? I do. Okay. I don't think that that means it's going to win. I just mean today. It's October 1st when we're recording. Whether we're taking the Oppenheimer Path reward season or the saving private Ryan Shakespeare in love.

path, it would be at one or two. Yes. And then I think Hamnet still is at two. I agree. Because it has since won the Toronto people's choice. Yes. And I have now seen Hamnet. I had not seen it last time I did this.

And we will have a vigorous Hamnet conversation in November when the film is released. After that, I mean, I still have strong feelings for sentimental value. I will say it did not hit as hard over the fall season as festival season as I expected. When I saw it, I was like, wow, this is a real wow. I think it's not going to steamroll or anything, but it's going to have a really glide path to the Oscars. But that just means that it didn't hit at Toronto. Right.

Because it was not at Venice. Right. So, because Venice doesn't have any of the Kemp festivals. And, you know, what's going on at Toronto is its own journey. It is its own journey. Is it, let me just throw this out there for you. Is it possible that Sinners is number three right now? That was some of the biggest feedback that we,

have gotten from this list and even from our one battle conversation, which is like Sinners is such a huge movie this year that it should be much higher on your lists. Sure, but I think it's not our personal lists of what

movies we like and what we think have been valuable or important. It's how we think it's going to play out in an award season. And it's just, it's a it is a very incredibly smart, well-made deep popcorn movie that was released in April

and Academy voters like prefer something dressed in Shakespeare clothing to that like every single time you know and it's and that's about the timing in the award season even though award season has moved on earlier in the year

it's about like this style of movie there are voters who see zombies and are just like okay so good job but that does not vampires but yeah oh that's right sorry whatever yeah that does not mean Oscar to me you know and and that is

that is like rapidly changing and I think it is going to change this season but we are just we're reading the landscape. I think you could put it at three like I'm trying to think of what I would put over it. Import because nothing else here is out. Nothing else here has been released. Yeah. No, I mean and like we are still talking about it. That's yeah, that's fine with me if you want to put it at three. I would say I don't really know where to go from here. So I want maybe you can help me based on how you're feeling and what you've seen what you think that maybe i think sentimental value at four maybe and then after that probably j kelly at five where we are right now that is a little bit just because it just you know premiered at new york film festival which is like a home game yes

i feel like you got a real bounce up yeah and i think the more people who have seen it's i guess we're very cranky at venice but it is people are really expecting it and finding layers to it I feel like the momentum has been largely going up from Venice to tell your ride up to New York. I think people are going to like it. I think it's a little different than previous No. I want to see it again. I do too. Yeah.

It is maybe paradoxically for Bombach's brand, kind of a filmmaker movie. You know, like it's a very beautiful looking film and it's a, you know, a shot on location in Europe and it's a very Fellini-esque, like an artist looking back at their life. So it's a little different than the intense dromedes that he historically is known for. But I think that's a good spot 45. Netflix has a weird and interesting conundrum here because they've got J. Kelly, House of Dynamite, Train Dreams, Frankenstein, and they have a fifth film, too, that I'm forgetting. If they do, I can't. I know they picked up cover-up, which is not going to compete for Best Picture, but it's definitely going to compete for Best Documentary, Laura Poitriss's movie about Seymour Hirsch.

If they do, they're not emailing me about it right now. Okay. I mean, that's four big movies. Frankenstein was not on our last list. It has since finished second at Toronto. I think it probably belongs on this list right now. You want to put it at like nine or ten? Yeah.

Nine. Because, I mean, you're right that the Academy loves Del Toro. Yes. The Nightmare Alley Surprise always suggests. And it does have Netflix behind it. and they're good at getting nominations. Fine. So we can put Frankenstein at 9.

I think that it was just an accident still needs to be on the list, even though I haven't seen it yet because it is the Palm Door winner, and that's sort of an automatic. You have since seen no other choice, and what you texted me was, I really liked this,

and I don't think it's an Oscar movie. I don't. I agree about it. It was just an accident. It was also officially selected by France as their entrant in the Best International Feature race. So I do think there will be at least

it's usually about two films and so if we're looking at sentimental value which is almost entirely in a foreign language and it was just an accident let's put it was just an accident at six okay um

and you want to no other choice is great but it's like a comedy satire with really violent moments there are not a lot of movies that are like this that have ever been nominated for best picture well I mean it's

Will Begonia take its spot? Could see it. Because they are thematically, I mean, there is, for all of its weirdness, it is about late capitalism screwing over a middle-aged man. And there is something that is very open and on trend, forgive me, about its basic themes. It will inevitably be compared to Parasite because it has some very superficial similarities, not just South Korean filmmakers and not just being these kind of like satirical genre exercises

but Parasite is very crowd pleasing No Other Choice is a little bit more of a like wow we are circling the drain of life Even though there's like some warmth to it like the decisions that are made Also a movie very I really really like it's very good

Another movie that reminded me a lot of Eddington too which we'll talk about when that movie comes out And I think no other choice is not coming out until Christmas So I would take no other choice off for now. Okay. So we added Frankenstein in. What do you think about Wicked for Good right now? Not knowing anything.

Because we have been writing in an ink for 12 months. And I don't feel like a lot of heat for the movie. Obviously, the movie has a really strong fan base and is going to do well to box office. But they haven't started yet, you know? Yeah. It's about to begin. Right. And I don't, I, I, I, I, I,

I mean, just remember Adam McKay being like, this is like an anti-fascist movie. Like, wild shit is about to happen, and you and I are, like, very much on the outside of whatever is going on there. And we try to be upfront about that. Like, we're just bewildered, but, like, you never know. So you could, I think we should still put it on there. I think it would be silly not to. We could for good at 10. Okay.

How are you feeling about Marty Supreme? I feel like we're about to have a little boomlet of Marty Supreme interest. You think of a little? I think there will be like... I just mean heading into the fall. Oh, yeah. I think there's going to be... People are going to start to see it.

I'm excited about it. It's not out for another three months. I know. And the late Christmas release and the late... The almost through our runtime and it's not going to be done. No festivals. It's like, you know, I know we all want to be Marty,

but like you don't want to like cast yourself in that mold if you can't deliver the goods. It's a risk. Yeah. It's a risk. So, but I mean, the Timothy Shalmay of it all does seem to me. On the Sting rewatchables, we had this conversation about the first call. Yeah.

And I was curious for your opinion about this because Bill was suggesting, we were talking about who was the first call in the 70s when Redford was rising in the early 70s. And he became sort of, you know, him and probably Clint Eastwood were the two single biggest stars at that time. McQueen was there. Paul Newman was there. Burr Reynolds was there. There were a lot of Nicholson. There were big stars. but this idea that like maybe Redford

was the first guy you would call if you were going to make a movie they needed a white guy and now who's the first call and well it was Leo or Shalame and I can't remember who was on whose side

I was on Leo's side yeah Bill was suggesting Shalema now they're not really comparable but you did I notice in the conversation you're like Leo is the only person who could open movies and I was just like Dune

Dune to Wonka, like, you know... Those are all franchise movies. Well, listen... When Marty Supreme makes $100 million, I will change my tune. I'm not, Bill, so don't make that face at me, okay? We are just having a conversation. You are my podcast partner and we quibble as a point of the show.

But sometimes, like, your nostrils start flaring and you, like, get really mad because I'm challenging you and I'm pointing out of flaw in your argument. I was so composed with Van. Was I not? Yeah, you were. But I'm just saying, it's, we're just having a discussion. We are. I think...

I mean, Leo just doesn't make movies that much anymore. So I think Timmy is maybe just, like, more practically available. They are also, I think, like, I have, you know, my thing for Juana has been that Timi is the new Leo. So it's just a generational divide. Like, do you need Leo age or do you need Timmy? You can't really compare them because they're two different generations. I think the, the Chalemae test is about to happen. It's going to be Marty Supreme, and then it's going to be this crime.

It's going to be done two and three, which is going to do well. And then it's going to be this crime drama that he's making with James Mangold for Paramount. I think those are his next three movies. And Marty Supreme and the crime drama, that's a Leo test. Leo, in his prime, opened those movies. Those movies always made $100 to $300 million.

But in his prime was a very, very different movie-going landscape. But if the movie makes $42 million, then he can't open a movie. Well, no, but then nobody can open a movie. Like, by that metric, Leo can't open a movie because he didn't open one battle after another. but one battle's going to make over $100 million. Well, I'm saying, like, I think Marty Supreme is really interesting in this respect.

It is a genuine test. No one is taking Leo from you, okay? I'm not saying that they are. But, like, we are aging, and we need to embrace that. But, like, Matt Damon can open a movie. Like, there's some people who can open movies. No, he can't really. I think, I think Matt Damon can open the movie.

Okay. We'll see. I mean, but, like, he's in the Odyssey, you know? Yeah, he's going to open that movie. That's Chris Nolan. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, you're obviously right. It's completely different now.

but I'm kind of waiting for someone's going to come along where you're going to be like, I have to see what they're doing in this movie. That's going to happen again. It's not going to happen in the same way. Yeah. It's when we were kids or when we were in our 20s. But that conversation is very big picture coded

that we were having on the rewatchables. Okay, we have two more spots. We've got, we could for good at 10. We've got Frankenstein at 9. We're looking at 8 and 7. All right. Well, you want to do it now? You want to do it later.

You have now seen House of Dynamite. I was mixed on it. Yeah. I was mixed on it. And I don't think it's, to me, it's not a slam dunk. And I saw it, I think, the same day that it played at the New York Film Festival. And I think a lot of people there were really mixed on it. Okay.

There's some parts of it that are incredible. And it is extremely captivating in the first half. And then for me, it lost its way a little bit. Yeah. So, and we'll talk about it when we get into the episode. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Which is, you know, that movie's going to be on the service in a month, less than a month. But I do also think it's Bigelow.

it is and I liked this movie but it's like speaking to a moment without having to take any sort of political part of what I didn't like about sure but you are not an academy voter

and there are many academy voters who are going to be like oh this this you know is propulsive filmmaking that recognizes that I feel bad about the world and I like and again I liked this movie but I think there's like

I think the lightweitness that you are responding to is possibly in its Oscar favor. You might very well be right because it absolutely ratchets tension in the way that Bigelow knows how to better than any filmmaker. And she's a proven commodity, right? She's been recognized for these kinds of films before.

To me, it's in a tier below the movies that she's really been celebrated for, but we'll get into that in a month or so. I could definitely see it being nominated. I do not feel as sure about it as I did. And especially if we're putting Frankenstein and J. Kelly on, three Netflix movies would be a lot.

you're right. You're right. And then that's even before if they can figure something out with train dreams, which I still think is in play, but I'm not going to put it on the list here right now. So let's just say a House of Dynamite for the sake of conversation slots in at number eight. What is number seven? Is it Pogonia? I've...

The Jesse Plymouth's performance will be touted, and so that'll get more eyes. And they really, really like Emma Stone and Yorgas Lantamus. You know? I think that's the answer. I think for now that's the answer That leaves on the outside looking in

No other choice Avatar Fire and Ash Rental family train dreams Springsteen deliver me from nowhere Is this thing on the Testament of Anne Lee Weapons? Yeah And then I feel like there's probably a couple of things

that we're not thinking of right now But There's always one surprise There's always one surprise I hope there is a surprise off of this tent Because this feels like I guess I mean I like the top Six movies on this list

So, I know you can quibble with a couple of those. I like some of them a lot. You know, that's how it goes. That is how it goes. Well, thank you, Amanda. This has been an epic discussion. Let's go now to my conversation with Benny Safty. Benny Safty is back on the show.

What's up, Benny. Welcome. How are you? Nice to see you again. Nice to see you, too. Congratulations. You're having an amazing moment right now. I'm talking to you.

just days after you've won the Silver Lion for Best Directing at the Venice International Film Festival. How does that feel? It feels crazy, you know? Because like, A, it's the kind of thing. It's like right behind me, too. Because I literally have it right.

They give you this bag. But it was just like, it's not, it's something I never in a million years thought, whatever possibly happen, you know, just because like you see pictures. Like, that's like the picture that you see, of, like, these big directors, like, holding it up. And you're like, oh, my God, that's cool.

But it seems so far and impossible. Like, it was just, that's how it just existed in my brain. It was like, oh, that's like a history book thing, you know? Like, it's such an old festival. And then this year, there's so many directors there that I'm just thinking, this is just a wild to be part of, you know, to be a part of this, like, year. It's like everybody's coming out with something. It was just cool.

And so when that happened, I was just like, really? It was like, oh my God, that's crazy, you know? I was very happy for you. I was getting it from Alexander Payne and everybody there. I was just like, this is wild, man. It's a pretty sick honor. Let's go back to the beginning of this project in particular, because I don't know a whole lot about how you became aware of Mark Kerr

and even what your relationship is to MMA. I don't know if we've ever talked about any of that stuff. So how did this story first get on your radar? So I've been a boxing fan forever. You know, I love boxing. And then I just, and then like early MMA, like I remember going to a USC fight in 2002. And you'd see those VHS tapes in like the video store where you were just like, what's this? Like these like hidden violent no whole like no holds bar fighting.

And so like it was always like this thing that I was in. by just the competition of it and just it was it was and i always been i love fight movies i love fight movies there's so many like requiem for heavyweight bat city the harder they fall rocky three rocky you know like there are these amazing they just do something to me and i love how they how i feel when i watch them raging bowl you know like they they just they tell the stories about lives through these fighters and that's exciting And so Dwayne came to us in like 2019 saying like, hey, here's this documentary. I really want to make this into a movie.

And I feel, and I just like, I just instantly was like, okay, and I watch this thing. And I'm like, this is insane. That this is what he wants to do. That this got. I never heard of Marker at that point. And I'm watching this. And I'm like, this guy. is the most soft-spoken, eloquent, smashing monster I've ever seen in my life.

He can go in there and beat the crap out of somebody and then be like, you know, it was just like, just what happened. You know, he's so calm about it. And just I would then watching interviews about him, like, he would say like, you know, I can't. He can't really tell you why I do it. And he was just so honest. And there was something so vulnerable about him that I thought, this is a really cinematic character. You know, here you have this guy who is so big and so strong and yet so vulnerable and so willing to talk about his feelings and his emotions and why he's complicated, you know, and why he may not understand things.

And I just, I got why Dwayne wanted to do it. And I fell in love with Mark. And I just kind of felt really connected to him in a way where, like, I've been in situations where I've had to, you know, like, in my, like, just like life where you know, like, you have to put on a different pace for the world, you know, you have to, like, you have to go to a premiere and whatever happened before, doesn't matter. You have to present. And I'm like, I know that feeling.

Wayne knows that feeling. And I clearly Mark knows that feeling. And it's just also this idea that, like, not everybody knows what the hell is going on in your head at any moment. And if you are aware of that fact, then maybe. he'll be a little bit nicer. You know, I've had to remind myself of that, you know, just walking around the world, you know, especially in the city, you know, I would be on the phone dealing with something

and some guy would give me a dirty look. And I just looked at him, I said, you don't know what I'm dealing with, man. And it was just like, he just shuts down the conversation. But so that's so he gets in touch. And it was just kind of like, it's just wild, you know, and it was just there were conversations happening. And then COVID hits. And then it just kind of faded away.

And I just, I never stopped thinking about it. I had screen grabs from the documentary on my phone from 2020, just, and I would always look at it. And I would watch the thing over and over again. And I just really felt a deep connection to Mark in a way that I can't really verbalize. I just really wanted to explore what it felt like to be him. Because at times, I felt like I was him in certain ways, you know? I, it's, so I don't know. I just, and I wrote Dwayne a letter, and I found this, the Nautica sweater, the yellow Nautica sweater.

I found, I happened to find Avert. It wasn't perfect. It was a blue line, but it was a Kroenek Nautica, and I wrote him a letter basically saying, look, I don't know if, I don't know what's going to happen with this thing. And I said, but I said, whenever you do this, I know it's going to be great. And I said, here's this sweater so that when it happens, you can put it on and hopefully that'll help you embody. mark in a way because I know that that's something that I've done that helps me

and I wrote it in my handwriting which if you like look at it it like looks like a psychopath and so like I tried my best to like write it and they probably got it and thought

oh we're going to push this aside because he doesn't need to know about this is a stalker you know so he never got it but it was just then like you know you fast forward to like, I'm working with Emily, and I see her, I'm like, you're friends with Dwayne. And I'm like, what's going on with that? Is that still a thing? Like, I want to be involved in any way that I can because I didn't know what he was doing, you know? So it was just kind of like, yeah, so that kind of jump started again. But it really was this, it was this thing that was just kind of like burrowing itself inside of my soul. And I really just had to do it.

That's really it. I definitely want to ask you about the curse and how that's related to this. But what did Dwayne say to you in 2019 that indicated why he thought you would be right to work on this? Because this is tonally and even structurally, like very different from what you've worked on in the past. Yeah. And I think that like at that time, I don't think I knew how to tell the story. You know, I didn't, I probably wouldn't have made the same movie then. you know so i think probably like it's like a cheesy thing to say but like the universe

righted itself in a way that like we were both in the places where we needed to be to finally tell the story how it should be told you know or that was truthful to it so it wasn't necessarily something he said it was just the fact that he wanted to explore it and i just saw it in his eyes I'm like, oh, I've never seen this person. I saw Dwayne, like, the performer and like the big personality, charismatic, everybody loves him. But now I'm hearing a guy talk about something with such eloquent, soft-spoken, internal ideas. And I'm just like, this is a different guy, you know, I'm like, and I don't think people have seen that side of him. And so the other thing is, is like, there's things.

he does in this movie that like you can't ask those things if you haven't felt it at some point in your life like that's what I was I'm like I was that's all I wanted it to do was be realistic in its feeling you know that like oh that really he really felt that stuff you know so he obviously was a professional wrestler but not um a participant in combat sports and it like it is very very different and as you said like there are tons of boxing movies but there are not a lot of combat sports movies. And so, like, what is the, like, how do you guys figure out the cinematic language,

the way to figure out how to shoot those fights? Because it's fairly new. Yes. Well, that's the thing is, is like, I think that, like, with boxing, because it's so choreographable, you know, you can do that in, like, okay, there's punch, there's faints, there's all this stuff that you can do

that really lends itself to the medium. But in especially early MMA, they were on the grant and they were pounding each other. And like, you kind of can't bake it. There's a lot of like, it's really hard. I'm watching this stuff and I'm like, ultimately, what did I kind of like, how am I going to figure this out? Because this is hard, you know, somebody said to me, if I could see it on my phone, I better see it in your movie, you know, which is true. You know, like, that's going to be a thing. So I'm like, how do I do this?

And I remember just like, I would have the fights playing in the background while I was writing and doing stuff with the sound off. And I thought, that's it. I was all of a sudden it was like, I had the glasses from They Live and I saw it. I was like, oh my God, that's how to do it. Never go in the ring. Shoot it like a, like, not like a slightly like a pay-per-view, but like you, we, I said, to Maseo Bishop of the Sinaiper. We have third-tier passes. They don't want us to be there.

We've got to fight our way to get the best place for our viewers, you know? So we're literally, we're telling all the background, don't move out of our way. If anything, move in front of us and he'll push you away. So Maseo's running, Karen, pushing people aside and trying to get the best shot. And so it really was like, that was a very important part of it. And I I think that that element of like trying to get around people, you know, was something that I wanted you to feel watching it. Because the other thing is that I thought like, okay, if I want, I wanted it to kind of be like a time travel. I really wanted the essence and feeling of that time to come across. So a lot of the pacing, that's part of that, you know? And so specifically

with the fights too, I realized if there was a camera in the ring, you would see the camera, just like if it was really happening. So the moment you cut to a shot in the ring, it knocks you out of the believability of the whole thing because that's just physically not possible, you know? So there was a lot of times where I wanted to get a certain shot, and I stopped myself because I was like, I can't. But what I can do is I can use all of the ropes.

I could use the people, I could use the photographers to hide stuff so that like I could do all this stuff in camera. So like when you're going to get a better shot, the camera comes down and comes back around to see the fighter throw the punch, but it's really stacking it so they don't have to punch the guy in the face. But it looks so, it looks like he's getting hit, you know,

because how that motion kind of tricks your brain into that, you know? And so that part of it was like really helpful because I remember there was a day, I would shoot the fights beforehand. Greg Rementor was the stunt coordinator. We watched all these fights religiously, and we wanted them to be as real to what actually happened as possible,

but they were really long. Some of them were like 35 minutes. So we had to condense them into these like punk rock songs, almost like, because that's kind of how it feels. You know, some of these fights last, they're fast, they're over, neck crank, done, boom. And so when we were shooting them, I would go downstairs and we had like in our office,

downstairs we had a boxing ring with the four ropes and he would show me the fights with the stunt performers and then meseo and i would film it from and i had like a whole side i had like sections where there was we broke it up into sections and we shot the fights chronologically because like that made sense because then i also realized like when somebody gets cut in a fight it just happens so you'll see fight fight fight punch blood and then so shooting it chronologically meant okay, at section five, we add the blood cut on the eye because that's after the punch. So there were all these things that we were like kind of using to our advantage. And we would shoot the fights.

I would then go and edit them to see how they laid out, how long they were. And then that also allowed me to be more efficient because these guys are going to be in there, throwing each other on the ground and really physically exhausting themselves. You know, Dwayne did get punched at one point in the movie. And it's very clear that he's getting hit. And that one was important, you know? And he said to the guy, like, you got to just hit me. And this is a professional fighter, like double, triple back black belt.

And he's like, I'm not going to do it. He goes, you have to. You have to. And then Baz was like, just hit him in the, he's the rock. Hit him in the head. He's like, wait, wait, wait. Let's go 70, 80 percent, you know? But so that idea of like, okay, I love that challenge of trying to figure out how to do this

in a way that maybe hadn't been done before because, like, I know the tradition of these movies and I wanted to just see if I could, like, give a little fraction of a new thing, you know? Yeah. It was also important because I wanted it to feel different, you know? I wanted it to feel like, oh, wow, we have the best seat in the house to this really crazy period of this sport

because they were doing things that was wild, you know, like, Epida versus, like, giant wrestlers, like, what's going to happen there, you know? it's funny though because like for me watching it I intellectualized it immediately and was like oh well this is different from a boxing movie because it's a testament to how we can't actually get close to these guys you know that yes like in a boxing movie you're in a fighter's hip pocket and you're feeling their experience and you know raging

bull is so POV the whole time you're experiencing the film but this is like we're kind of at a distance from Mark you know like he's vulnerable but he's living a very strange life that's kind of hard to penetrate like I don't know are you thinking about it in that way too 100%. And you mentioned the curse and something about that that I learned was that you can be far away from people, but if you're connected to them through performance, you can be close to them. Like that was something that I was like, oh, that's something that I can kind of just learn and use so that like when you're with him at home, it kind of feels like you shouldn't be there.

You're seeing stuff that you shouldn't see. They're really strange moments in their lives. And yet they give you deep insight into where they're both at. And then you take that and you superimpose it onto the person in the ring. And now you're apart from them because as you would be in reality, you wouldn't be able to be in there with them. But you've just been so close with them for so long that when you get to that shot, it's like the first shot for one's wide and it's him in Usik.

and the drums going, you start feeling butterflies for the guy. You're like, that's what I wanted to put you in his head, even though you're far away, you know? I wanted to hear a little bit more about the curse because they really feel like, you know, sister projects, like spiritual. Yeah, I've been saying to people like the smashing machine is like a spiritual sequel to the curse, even though the curse plays it for laughs and the smashing machine is very sincere. Yeah. Tonally pacing, the score, all of the choices, they just feel very, very closely matched. And I was wondering if you could just talk about the decision to, you know, it feels like an evolution or transition stylistically for you.

Yeah, you know, because there were things that like, that I learned that you could do, you can have a feeling of pressure in a very different way. You know, you can feel pressure from a moment lasting just a little too long, you know, like there were instincts that maybe I would have cut too earlier, too fast, you know, that now if you let it settle and you live in that it can resonate in a way you know and then the other thing

was is like specifically on the curse working with John Medeschi he's an artist you know he's not a film composer he's an artist and he is a like a master of his craft and there was a level of like

okay I'm going to treat this like I'm talking to an actor you know they have to interpret what I'm saying They're not going to, I don't want them to do exactly what I want. I want to hear what they're thinking and how they're going to come up with it. And then what you get is a completely different thing than you expected. And then you got to make it work because that's their performance, you know. And that was something that was really interesting to me was that like, oh, wow, now you actually have like, it's almost like a psychoanalytical emotional subtitling where it's not directly connected to how the person's feeling, but it is.

You know, it's on a very deep, weird level. And so there I learned like, okay, you have to learn to let go a little bit in that moment. And then Nala is just like, she's such an incredible artist and just like seeing her work, like, because I went to London and I watched her do all this stuff, it was just like, oh my God, this is like, this is how jazz musicians work. There's a whole bunch of people in the room and they're just, we had the movie point. playing, and I would tell them, this is what he's feeling right now. He's gone through this, and it would be what I would do for an actor. I would just tell everybody in the room the emotional state of mind that they would be in. And then they would just play for 45 minutes. And I would just sit there and watch and just, they would all be looking at each other and ripping on each other.

And I'm like, this is incredible. And then there was one time where I was like, oh, I want electric guitar. And she calls her friend in and comes in with just an electric guitar. We had a laptop on the ground, and he's just treading to the fight. And you hear some of that in it. You know, it's mixed in amongst all the other stuff. And I just remember, like, I had to film it. I filmed the laptop to him, to her, just like, it's just like also she, what was awesome is she allows the other musicians the space to be themselves, you know? And that's like, that's what you do as a director is like you want people to perform from themselves you know that's the that's when you get the best performances and so she i see her doing that with these all these like these these uh musicians

and it's just awesome and then i she sends me all the raw stems and so now i have all the raw stems and i'm in there editing this movie working all this stuff in together and then i send them to her and she hears it and then she really sends me back and like i can maybe hear like one of the things that I did kind of playing through. And she's like, I hope it's okay. And I'm like, this is so much better than I could have imagined, you know? Like at one point I had, I had this like intense guitar playing when he left the ring, you know, after the first loss.

And she got rid of it completely and had that droning sound. And I was just like, oh my God. And then there was that, that hits when the door opens. And it just like shocks you. Just like, this is insane. And I just love the fact. Like, she's the person who plays the National Anthem. That's Nala.

Oh, okay. So, yes, so she actually performs it in the movie because I was like, I wanted people to see her doing it, you know? And she plays the harp. And she just, in some way, she's like this like little. And yet she completely understood Mark. And I thought there's something really special about that level of empathy that, like, somebody could feel so connected to somebody so different, you know? It's funny. you're talking about the movie

like the previous films where it's like this small collection of people who are making wild creative choices but this is a very big movie like it is a big you know it's you've worked with big stars before but big budget

it's across a huge timeline you're traveling the world it's me countries yeah it's crazy did you feel pressure did you get were there times or you felt like you couldn't do something that you wanted to do never there wasn't

you know that's what was kind of crazy is like, I really did feel like I was allowed to do the things that I wanted to do. There was an amazing moment where there was a really intense fight that Dwayne was doing. And we were in this giant stadium, you know, in Vancouver, the 20,000 people. And we had our 400 extras. And it was amazing because they're all, they never are allowed to talk or do anything. And I'm allowing them cheer their heads off and screams. So they're having the best time.

So it's got an amazing invite. It has a real fight vibe to it. And it was just us, just the crew, you know? And I remember Dwayne looked around. He's like, oh my God, it's just us. I go, yeah, isn't that awesome? And it's funny because, like, I've had that experience on like, on Oppenheimer where I'm like, what the hell?

How is this possible? Where you can, you could have a movie this large and yet you're all just in a room, figuring it out? that's cool you know like I wanted like that's like something where so you you you and it's the same thing like I'm like licorish pizza where you're looking around and it's just a bunch of people having a good time figuring this out and that's inspiring you know and it made me feel good as an actor so I'm like okay well that's something you know so um so there really was like also like I didn't want it if it was like I wanted to create a world where there wasn't even though

this movie is all about pressure. I didn't want any of the performers in it to feel any pressure whatsoever. You know, I wanted it to feel like you could do anything, you know, because if you make a mistake, it's not a mistake. Now we know we're not going to do that because it didn't work. So that's a positive thing that we've just learned. That's not where we're taking the performance. Let's go here now. Let's try this. So it really becomes a kind of just an exciting thing that you're doing with everybody. And then also like, yeah, when you're getting crunched for time, I kind of get like a little bit excited because then it's like you really have to work your brain to condense things and move things together.

And like, okay, let's really figure out the essence of what this is, you know? One thing I wanted to ask you about with that stuff, though, is like how much do you worry about accurate? and sort of like fact versus truth in this because you've got like a real person's life yes you've also got a world where people are very particular about how it's portrayed right like fans of MMA

are very specific so if you fuck that up right people get mad exactly and then you've also got the source text of the documentary too so like how do you blend all that stuff together so there's a level of accuracy that I knew we needed to achieve with the fighting

and I wanted that to be there's it's funny there's a UFC shirt that my wife got me that says on the back it's one of the first ones which says as real as it gets and I'm like that's it that's the statement for this movie everything has to feel that way and so for the fights we were religiously accurate to how they played out and I wanted to show them in a way that felt like if a fighter watched that they would go that's it and it fucking hurts like that's exactly what it's like because I'm not changing how these fights happened for the benefit of a movie. I'm not slowing it down. I'm trying to just keep up with how they're doing it. And I approached

it with like a respect and a care and a love that I hope comes across to them. You know, that like I wanted to do respect to the sport because like it's a huge thing, you know? And from where it came, it's like these guys built this foundation and now look at it. It's crazy. you know and so i really did put a lot of care into that but then like there's a certain level of like there's certain things that didn't actually happen you know dawn wasn't in the room for that moment with egore you know but i thought i should put her in the room because wouldn't that's what she's feeling you know hertsong calls it the ecstatic truth and i agree with that you know that you have to do things that change the what actually happened but they're truthful to what it

felt like, you know? So here, she wasn't in there. She didn't take the picture, but I thought it's a full representation of how she felt that here's a guy who I just tried to relate to on a really deep emotional level and he brushed me off. And now he's turning to the guy who just destroyed him and made him feel like the lowest possible person in the world. And he's loving him and giving him a hug and laughing. And then he asks me, me to take a picture. How sad is that? And I was just like, that is probably what Don felt like, you know, on the outside. And so I, that's one an example, you know? And then also, like, I only got like glimpses into like what happened in their lives. But like, I pulled

Wayne and Emily into a room and I was like, let's all just talk about the times where we've had fights with our significant others. And we felt really embarrassed about the things we said to each other. And it made us feel gross and disgusting. And we, and we all just, myself, we just said it. And I was like, okay, now we can go and do some of this stuff without being self-conscious, you know, because some of the stuff they say is mean, you know. And I think a lot of it is, like, to portray a relationship like that, it only works if you feel the people care about each other, you know, because then otherwise it's just yelling. But if you feel hurt behind it, You know, do you read that in one of your little fucking books?

You're like, oh, she was just trying to relate to you. You know, like, I can't believe you just said that. That's insane, you know? So it's like, and I felt bad writing some of the things, like, when, just because you got your shit together for 21 days, doesn't make you any better than me. I felt that before. I feel bad that I felt that before. But I'm like, you know what? I'm sure other people have thought that too.

so I'm going to put that in there, you know? Maybe it's not the right thing to say, but it's truthful, you know? So that's where it's like, and I said to Mark, and I had lots of conversations with him, and we spoke, Emily spoke to Dawn endlessly, basically saying, look, we want to be truthful to, because they're alive and they are, they're doing okay. And I didn't, the last thing I wanted was this movie to just kind of upend and destroy themselves. they're like where they are and how hard they've worked to get there. But I didn't want to pull any punches, for lack of a better analogy.

I wanted to show it as being true. So to do that, I just basically said, you just have to trust me. You know, that's, and my first conversation with Mark was, I'm going to tell you everything that happened in my life. From the day I was born to where I am now and the crazy shit that I've been through that, nobody knows I'm going to tell you and I'm going to trust you with that information

so you can trust me with this movie you know where'd you learn that trick that's a smart one I have no idea I don't know I just decided that

it was in the moment I'm like you know what I'm going for it it's just like so it was just it was just probably from like a lots of therapy

you know I've been in like just doing that and then at the same time it's just like it just felt right you know and fair.

That's where it came down. It felt fair, you know. I think I said to him, I said, I'm going to be doing this so it's only fair that you know this stuff, you know? And I think at that point, like, I said, I'm going to do things that are going to make people feel the things that happened to you. So, yeah, it wasn't Coleman in there, but Coleman coming to the hospital and being the one shows that, like,

the brotherhood and love amongst you guys is so strong and so beautiful. beautiful, like that's what I want to show there. And also the fact that like Don and Coleman could have that like interaction with each other that's really uncomfortable, but then they give each other a really like warm embrace when they're dealing with somebody they love in pain, you know? And so I was, I really wanted to just explore those feelings. And in a lot of ways, I was like, oh, maybe feelings can be plot too, you know, like that can kind of push you through that like if you really are connected to somebody emotionally, everything goes out the window, you know?

I've always been fascinated by Dwayne. I was a huge fan of his in the 90s. Obviously, I've spent the last 15 years talking about movies, and I always wanted more from him. I've said it many times on this show. And I know he's been talking about this, and I know we talked about this at the festival publicly at the press conference,

but I could not for the life of me, having watched him be so creative, and on his feet so creative. the choices that he was making. And so I'm, you know, I'm fascinated from your perspective what you think was really going on with him, why he was trying to make some of these changes.

I just think that, like, at some point he, it's hard to hold back your feelings all the time. It is, you know? And so I could just sense that, like, he was ready to burst, you know, in that way. And I think he realized I got to release this pressure valve and express some of this stuff that I'm feeling, you know? And again, it comes down to like just trust that like we trusted each other to do this. Like there's things that I'm exploring through this, you know, and I'm like the things that like I've said, you know, I feel bad that I've said like, that like, yes, I've said before, yes.

it is nice, but it's not nice because you're making me say no all the time. I'm like, I feel bad that I've said that. You know, it's just like, what I'm like, I'm going to put that in there. And so it's just like, and Dwayne's delivering that line with the perfect, he would say to me like, what am I looking at when I cut the cactus? Why am I stepping back and looking at it? And I said to him, you're looking to see if you can live with the scar that now exists on the bottom of this thing that you love and instantly he got it and he gets back and he looks at it

and then I was like oh wouldn't it be amazing if she misinterprets that as that he really cares about the cactus and thinks he would be a good father and then there's that weird miscommunication that happens you know so that's my favorite scene by the way yeah it was it was so hard to like get that balance you know but wanted to look like the roadrunners. It's just so funny because all I had was just a knife and him cutting a plant.

It was like, all right, where did that come from? But the thing that was really special for me was I felt like I could honestly ask him to do anything. And he would somehow figure out a way to internalize what I said to him and have it come out

as one of the most emotionally real performances, you know? And it was like the fight scene that happens between him and Emily at the end. I structured that like the fights in the ring with different sections. Chronologically, this was the first section, first round, second round, third round. And I said to him, you don't yell ever in this section, ever. You never raise your voice. She wants you to raise your voice, but you don't raise your voice.

Second round, she's coming in a little bit harder. You still are trying your hardest to make. you do not want to have a fight. You don't want to have a fight. And then at some point, when she mentions this, that's when you lose it. And when you lose it, you start saying things you regret. And that was like, this was like how we would talk about this stuff. But again, we're all just like interpreting it.

And it's coming out in a way that like feels truthful to them too, you know. And just like, again, like Dwayne, he like there's a moment when he, like, if you leaves the other room and he just kind of sits back and takes a swig of beer and rolls his and I was just like, oh my God. Like he is in this on a whole other level that like it was just rule to watch. You know, like I was just like I cannot. And there's a moment when like in the My Way montage, which I knew I was going to do when he was like we were like he was caught up on the technical aspects of it. And I said, let's just have it be like a dance. And I blasted the song in the jam. And for the entirety of the song, he did it. And the light and the same, I had the light

blasting. And I remember just like forgetting to call cut. Because I was like, oh my God, I'm watching the movie right now. Like I saw it happening. And he was just doing this thing. And he just went to, he just allowed himself. And I remember like saying like when he had to like really let it go and feel the emotions. I was like, how many times have you not done this? Like, how many times have you had to hold back these feelings? And I was like, it would just be so, it's so great to just not do that, you know? Like, just not do that.

And then just starts bursting into tears. And then he did it again because the light went out. And I'm like, I felt so bad having to ask him to do that, you know? And he did it again. And it was just like, and then I was crying and he was crying and it was like this. And I was so happy. It's like the, we had the second camera hidden in like we had a, I would find like places where we could kind of just be out of the way.

And I see he was shooting into the mirror the whole time. And I called that our like, that was our truth shot because he could get where the other camera couldn't. He could see and he could get close on the face. And he just kept rolling while I came in the. the room and we just both burst into tears amongst each other and everybody just kind of left us alone for a little bit like we had time on the movie to just kind of like do these things and then like you take a break for an hour and a half to just like get over it you know like the thing

they did in the bathroom we did that one time because I'm like that's not fun to go and do that you know, to feel that. That's not fun. So let's, we did it. I saw it. Let's go. Let's move on, you know. I mean, you got a great performance out of him, like a truly great performance at him.

So congrats. It's funny, you've mentioned now, you know, we talked about the curse. You mentioned Oppenheimer and Lickers Pizza. And I think maybe since I last saw you, like your sideline as an actor has become a big thing. And Happy Gilmore, too, like 500 million people have. not seen you in a movie. So, like, is the, tell me about the balance. Like, what is your, how are you defining yourself?

How are you going to spend the next 10 years of your life? Like, it seems like if you just wanted to act, you probably could. Yeah. No, that is true, you know, but I think that, like, what I'm, like, realizing is, like, whatever excites me to do is what I'm going to do. You know, if I'm going to learn something from it, I'm going to do it. And if it works, great. If it doesn't, I learn something.

I'm just good. That's how I'm going to approach it. You know, it's like, I think that that, and I learned something whenever I act in somebody else's movie, you know, I think there's something important that like, I'm not the boss. I've got to listen to other people, you know. It's like, that's important, you know, to go through that. And to act with other people who you may not act with or choose to cast. And you could learn something from, like, I was talking to Shooter McGovern or Christopher McDonald.

And he's a shooter to us, yeah. He'll always be a shooter to us. Shooter, he's a shooter. He's shooter. But I remember saying to him, I was like, look, I said, I don't think I'm the bad guy. He goes, me neither. Me neither. I'm like, that's how you did it, you know?

And so, like, it blows my mind in that way. So, and it's like, and I get to work with Kathy Bates, you know? It's just like those and like Jim Brooks, you learn all that you get to like have experience. is like that and Claire Deney you know like oh I love that that's that scene in that movie is fucking amazing Benny it's not not enough people have seen that I love that scene so much in that movie and and the thing about that scene is like I have so much dialogue I am like it is a hard scene to do and I'm just thinking like I gotta do this for her and I'm working with her to like put it in my voice and all this stuff and she's so down for the collaboration but I

remember in the middle of it, I'm doing all this stuff. And she goes, I'm bored. Everybody just stand up. I was just like, I just did the whole scene sitting down. I said, as an editor, please, just get me standing up on this line. She's like, fine. And so he stood up and then continued the scene from there. And it was just like, but then the whole time she's joking about like the fact that there's this pipehead that somebody thought I dropped soap. And she said, oh, Benny, you dropped your soap. And then she goes, what are you talking about? And they pointed to it. She goes, why would he have soap in his pocket? And so then she's talking about the soap the whole time. And it was just such a nice vibe. And we're in the middle of the jungle. You know,

it's like, it was just, yeah, it's like I, that, I don't know what it. I'm learning something while I'm doing that. And I think that it's, that's important to not lose sight of that. So like, I want to have both experiences because I think they make me better on each side. You know, when I'm acting after doing this, I'm like, okay, now I know, like, I've learned things like working with all these other people, like, and how to get inside. Like, now I can change my performance a little bit here, you know, and then working with other directors, I can take things and fold it into the way that I'm working, you know? It makes sense.

So I do really see them as connected in a lot of ways. two quick ones before I let you go one Nix how are you feeling I'm feeling good you know I feel like we got a good amount of benched like a little bit more of the bench and I will say there was something so magical

about last year even though they didn't go as far as they should have there was something really magical about it and I didn't I hated to love Tibbs like everything about him and he's just, he was so stuck in a different time period. He was there when the Knicks were like the Knicks. And he just imbued such a, that I did feel bad.

It was sad. You know, like I knew it was a necessary thing to do, but I really felt like emotionally attached to him. And it's a little hard for me to get over that, you know, like to connect with a new coach. And like, I'm glad we still have the main team, you know, but it was that steal. like beating Boston

I know those are like those are the best and like he gave us that you know I know like these guys they rode they rode with him and I it was just it's it's hard so like I think when the see it's it's a weird moment to be in

because like you gotta get used to it again and I had felt like I had gotten to know everybody so but it's gonna happen I'm excited I'm excited too it's I mean their best season in 25 years and they fired their head coach is like hard to accept, but every game I was absolutely miserable thinking about what

Tibbs is doing. What are you doing? We're up by 40 points. Please get him out of the game. You can't. He drove me insane. Yeah. So it's like, but then it was like, is that part of it? Yeah, it is. It's like psychological warfare. He's like, I will never let up. And every opponent knows

that, which is a power. That's power. Anyway, I'm excited for the season too. I think it's going to go well. We end every episode of the by asking filmmakers what's the last great thing that they have seen i know you've been at venice like have you seen anything anything on the plane i didn't get to see anything in venice um which sucks you know because like it was just like the last time i was there i got to see everything you know um but i didn't get to see anything this year you know it was it was a shame um it was the last

thing i've seen oh crimson tied i've never seen it really and yeah i'd never seen it and I'm like, this is unbelievable. Because I love Gene Hackman. I've tried to see every Gene Hackman performance. Like, I've gone through everything. And somehow that one missed me. And Hackman and Denzel, that thing

is awesome. It's so good. I just remember why, I just, I was like, oh my God, I felt so lucky that I'm like, I can't believe I have never seen this movie. And I'm just watching it. And then what's the other one that I just watched with Kevin Costner? it's like a spy no way out no way out yeah awesome movie got another it was again i was like all right i'm back

in the jean hackman you know those are two those are two gems yeah those are two of his best like big studio movies in that time that's awesome oh man i love it all right benny congrats i'm glad you reminded me of that yeah man okay thanks so much thanks for doing the show and uh i wish you well with the movie you know like make make more movies is my only other thing like i know acting is cool but please direct more movies okay oh i'm i'm going my next one i'm my next one i'm really excited for lizard music oh yeah i was reading about this yes that's i'm just so excited are you holding that title oh i love that title it's i love it what you mean hold like holding it in what way like keeping it like you're using it oh 100% you know um i love the author daniel pink water is the

greatest you know he's just like and i read i read that book to my kids and it just it's oh i'm excited Thank you. Yeah, you too. Thanks to Benny. Thanks to Van for spirited appearance here on the show. Amanda, thank you for your work. Next time I see you, it will be in New York City. That's right.

We are going to New York City. Can I just say right now to all of the people following up on our mailbag episode? Like, we're at capacity for Sharon's submissions, and I'm recording this on Wednesday. So I'm going to try to get back to his minute. This has been like a very lovely. experiment. If I don't get back to you, we see you. We love you. Yes. I don't love you, but we see you. You know, good luck out there. But like, please, you know, this is going up on a Friday. It's too late. Okay. You know, the deadline is closed.

Okay. Well, we will see you in New York City. Thanks to our producer Jack Sanders for his work on this episode. See in New York. You know,