The Big Picture - Best Picture Power Rankings and the Super-Sincerity of ‘Sentimental Value,’ With Joachim Trier! Plus: Regretting ‘Regretting You.’

Episode Date: November 24, 2025

Sean and Amanda begin the show by discussing the imminent sale of Warner Brothers Discovery, consider the potential implications of a merger with one of Paramount, Comcast, or Netflix, and debate which scenario is the most likely outcome (1:22). Then, they cover the new Colleen Hoover adaptation ‘Regretting You’ starring Allison Williams and Dave Franco, which they found absolutely baffling (17:28). Next, they have an extensive conversation around Joachim Trier’s ‘Sentimental Value,’ starring Renate Reinsve and Stellan Skarsgard, where they explore why some people are connecting to the film so strongly, while for others it doesn't seem to resonate (47:15). Finally, Trier joins the show to explain how much of himself is actually mapped onto Skarsgard’s character, how being a good listener and observant of the world around you translates to strong characterization, and the story of shooting in a house that was down the street he grew up on (1:33:54). Hosts: Sean Fennessey and Amanda Dobbins Guest: Joachim Trier Producer: Jack Sanders Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

I'm Sean Fennacy. And this is the Big Picture A Conversation Show about sentimental value and sentimental crap, or bad dads and their distant daughters. On today's episode, we're discussing two new releases. The first is the latest Colleen Hoover adaptation, Regretting You, which has quietly become one of the most successful films of the fall.

and is an utterly baffling slice of melodramatic poppycock, Amanda. The second film is Joachim Trier's sentimental value of family drama about a patriarch filmmaker and his two daughters in the house that binds them. It's the new film from the Norwegian filmmaker. For me, one of his best yet. I spoke to Joachim. You can hear that later in this episode. He's a very thoughtful and interesting guy.

He's been on the show before. We'll also cap off the month of November with an updated Best Picture Power rankings, which will be the last time we talked Best Picture, until the Golden Globe nominations on December 8th. How are you feeling about that? Are we coming in at 7 a.m.? I think so. Okay.

I think I need to see Song Sung Blue that morning. So we're going to come in early. Oh, I thought that you were saying that you needed to see Song Sung Blue before the Golden Globe nominations were announced that there is a musical comedy category. I think it could be in the mix. They want Kate Hudson at that table.

They do, they do. Okay, before we get into all of that, and that is a full slate. Yeah. Normally that would be more than enough for an episode. You know, conversation with a filmmaker, two new movies. We're recording this on a Friday. This is a fateful Friday.

I don't know what's going to transpire over the next 72 hours before this episode drops. Probably a lot because, you know what I just remembered? We're recording this before Thanksgiving. And I'll never forget. I go back to Philadelphia every year for my in-laws Thanksgiving. And I remember being in my husband's childhood bedroom when the news that Chepeck was out and Iger was in hit. And I think that was the Sunday. or Monday before Thanksgiving.

Was it? So, yeah, because I was in Zach's Philly bedroom. I have no recollection of that. It can be an event full time of the year. It's a news dump time for sure. It's a time when you bring in some big information. Now, the biggest thing that is going on in Hollywood right now is, of course, the imminent seemingly sale of Warner Brothers Discovery. This has been a slow-moving car crash for five-plus years, and we're finally getting

to this place where Zalav and Co are starting to, you know, figure out who they're going to move this company into the hands of after, I would say, mismanagement over the last few years. The initial bids on this were due on Thursday at noon, P.T. Reportedly three bids came in, a bid from Paramount, a bid from Comcast, and a bit from Netflix. Okay. Now, I just want to talk very briefly with you about the different permutations, what could happen, what it could mean, and I don't want to take any bets on what's going to happen, because I think. I think a sale like this, a merger like this, has a lot of unfortunate ramifications. So I don't want to make too much light of it, but it is very, very important.

It is vitally important to the future of film, to the future of theatrical distribution, to the future of the entertainment industry. Because Warner Brothers is one of the signature studios in the history of this business. So here's what could happen. I've listed it in what I think is order of likelihood. You can tell me if you agree or disagree with this. The first permutation, Paramount Skydance buys Warner Bros. Studio and HBO. They bundle all of the streaming properties that are valuable to them from Paramount Plus and the HBO properties and whatever attendant stuff comes along with that, TNT and so forth.

And then they also get the movie studio. So they get the full slate. They get Batman. You know, they get Barbie. They get all the stuff that is part of the Warner Brothers universe. Harry Potter. Harry Potter, which is going to be a television show very soon on HBO. And Trump being a fan of the Ellison's?

Yes. Pushes that merger through. Right. And it happens. That, to me, feels like the most likely outcome. I think so. I mean, some of that likeness stems from the fact that it's been the most covered in the media, the most speculated. They, there have been the most conversations that we know of.

And because Paramount has just kind of been lurking around Warner Brothers. for a year or so? This has been, I think, critical to Ellison's strategy in general. He says that they can build, but it would be helpful to Paramount, which has a much more threadbare collection of IP than the other big studios,

which is one of the reasons why it's been so challenging for Paramount over these last 10 years as a movie studio. Here's the next, I think, most likely option. This is just based on kind of what I've heard around town and a little bit of my own gut, which is that Zazelai's, and co decide to split the sale in two, and that Comcast, which is, of course, universal and peacock and that whole orbit, gets HBO. And they plug that right into their television

streaming ecosystem. Right. And Netflix gets the Warner Bros. Movie Studio. I wouldn't be happy about this. I don't think this would be a great outcome. Okay. As I think it potentially... Would you be happy about the first outcome where Paramount, Skydance, Warner Brothers? There's no good The good outcome is a lone man comes along who has $500 billion and says, I would like to own Warner Brothers, and I would like to make it the single greatest studio in the universe. Now, I can create like a real-time analog for that experience because I am a fan of the Mets. And like, this actually literally did happen with the Mets, where a guy came along who's one of the, who is the richest owner in North American sports, and he was like, I'm going to buy this team

and I'm going to pour everything I have into making it great. It's been mixed results. So that doesn't guarantee anything. That's what I was going to say is that I'm like, I'm thinking off the top of my head of men who have $500 billion or more and how things have gone for their companies and in some cases for the studios that they have purchased. It doesn't always work. So far, not great. No. If Elon Musk came in and bought Warner Brothers, I don't think that that would necessarily create a good outcome. So I do, but I do think that that.

So you inherent $500 billion. I would a hundred percent. Yeah, you'd be good at it. What do I get to do? Whatever you want. You're coming with me on the ride. I mean, obviously, I have no idea how to run a business at scale, but I do think that you want somebody who loves this stuff.

And the one thing I'll say for the Ellisons, David Ellison, he does like movies. We probably have different taste than movies, but he wants to make movies and wants to put movies in movie theaters. He has been the number one supporter of Tom Cruise and his theatrical journey over the last 10 years. So I have thanked David Ellison for Top Gun Maverick and Top Gun Maverick alone, and I stand by that.

Comcast buying HBO, I don't really know. I guess I don't know enough about the TV business to know what that would mean. Obviously, Peacock is significantly smaller than HBO. Right. And HBO, maybe they swallow Peacock, or maybe there's some sort of expansion package. And so then that would mean that Taylor Sheridan is now Casey Blois' problem? Well, some might say it's Casey Blois' solution. Sure.

You know, that he is a portal to a long, long lasting audience. Okay. You know, HBO is on a little bit of an upswing in the aftermath of task and, you know, Chris and Andy talked on the watch last week about how they've just renewed a bunch of shows probably with the anticipation of this sale coming. Including the game, all the Game of Thrones stuff.

So in order to talk about the Netflix part of it, we have to talk about what I think is the third most likely outcome. Yeah. Which I don't see as happening, but we have to talk about it. So this could be Netflix just buys everything outright. They buy the Warner Brothers Movie Studio and they buy HBO. I think this would be extremely detrimental. to both the Warner Bros. Studio and HBO

because Netflix, which is more than within their right, would want everything to be Netflix first. Matt Bellany has a long piece in his newsletter over the weekend about how Netflix feels about theatrical. Ted Sarandos has been consistent for a long period of time that he does not, he believes theatrical is outmoded for consumers.

And there's been countless debates about how many theaters and for how long many of their films should play and what kind of business they could have gotten out of the Knives Out films or Guillermo dos Horace Frankenstein or any number of movies that seemed like they had like a real, a vibe amongst audiences. But none of that stuff is publicly reported. We had the whole K-pop Demon Hunter sing-along thing

where they dominated the box office one weekend. You know, we know that they have the ability to do this and to support it. They're putting stranger things. They're one of their most successful TV shows into theaters. and that they're a TV finale at movie length in movie studios. Yes. So, you know, up is down. And we know Greta Gerwig's Chronicles of Narnia film is also going into movie theaters

and is getting an IMAX exclusive release. So a lot of signal and a lot of noise in this equation. I agree with how Matt framed this discussion, which is my gut would tell me that they would abide by all of the previously made agreements with all of the talent and all of the film properties up through the conclusion of those agreements after a merger acquisition. And then after that, would do what is best from Netflix. And they would pursue concurrent windows where films go in theater, you know, day and day. Films go on the service and films go in movie theaters.

And then slowly over time, you just have the absorption of one of the biggest and most important studios into the streaming platform. It's not good for a variety of reasons. One, obviously, it would kill theatrical. If you just take one more player off the. board. We lost Fox six years ago. Fox now puts out half as many movies as they did when they were operating independently. There's an inventory issue. So we already have two few movies to support the theater industry. And then, you know, for my own very selfish personal reasons, like it probably

spikes home video like forever, like the sort of the physical media Blu-ray market. And Warner is a huge part of that. And the Warner Archive is very special. Like things like the, you know, one battle after another steelbook selling out in like five minutes or whatever, that's a small, small, small, small, small, small, small, small, small slice of the pie. Right. But it's like a thing that makes people care more about movies. And if you take it off the board, and Netflix would be within their rights to take it off the board because they're a streaming platform, then you're, there's going to just be this,

like, removal of a certain, of a few phases of film fandom that I would see as destructive. I could be wrong. I reserve the right to be wrong. I reserve the rights as even watch Netflix rebuild theatrical in America and support Blu-ray production and encourage home collectors, but very little of what they've done in the past indicates that they would. Yeah, I would say that previous evidence suggests that they will enter, you know, an arena of the industry, whether it is theatrical or, you know, owning Warner Brothers or the example I'm

going to use is just like making films with great filmmakers and spend, a ton of money give everybody what they want and make everything look very rosy and like promising and you'll get the Irishman and you'll get marriage story and you'll get Roma and you'll get like what was really like a golden age of truly good work made by some of our greatest filmmakers at a time when no one else in the industry would pay for that sort of stuff and that will fall somewhat flat and the eyes of Netflix's metrics and they will walk it back bit by bit and just do less and things will be a little less good and they will spend a little less time caring about theatrical and suddenly

oh look fewer theaters are available and no that doesn't really make sense for us and it will happen slowly and they will condition audiences over time but yeah I don't think they'll be a theater first company. I don't think buying Warner Brothers is like, okay, now we really believe it. And now we're like revitalizing AMC. I fully agree with you. I don't think that that would be logical for what their business is. There is a significant difference though between the original work that they have developed and produced and distributed and bringing in some of the most known quantities in movie history. Like if you go through the Warner's archives, there are so many different kinds of stories that have proven to be incredibly durable through 75 years

of theatrical distribution and home video that, like, to have Batman and to make a Batman movie and to make it a streaming first movie or a day-and-date movie, that feels dumb. Like, that actually feels like bad business. Well, sure, but Warner Brothers has already done that, you know? True. So I remember because I watched The Batman starring a very tall Robert Pattinson at home over the span of four nights and then I couldn't know who the Joker was. But that was in brief, though, in a time of transition.

Warner Brothers still has a 45-day window. Like Universal has a 17-day window with some gradation based on box office. But Warner Brothers is one of the few studios still. Warner's and Sony and Disney are like, we still have to let these movies play for a little while. And that keeps that business in place. This would be a real threat to it. To me, it's not a sky's falling moment. This is going to take a while to play out.

But we've had very few conversations about it on the show recently, and now that the bids are in and it feels real. I think I'm maybe a little bit surprised that it is just these three big conglomerates that are coming to the table. As opposed to Apple or random guy being like, let me. I mean, we saw how well it went for David Zazoff when he bought Robert Evanson's home or desk or whatever it was. It doesn't seem like that is ultimately going to be perceived as a success in the arc of business. I think his sale, you know, the amount of money that they get for the business. will be perceived as a success the stock's been going up since all of this discussion has been happening.

But, you know, it was previously owned by a phone company, you know, and a telecom couldn't make it work. We've seen, you know, Time Warner, Inc. has been kind of passed around and moved through various states of ownership over the years. They just haven't had that perfect ownership experience, I guess. We were doing the Redford Hall of Fame,

which will come out later this week, I believe. And the number of Paramount of Gulf Western companies that I watched even doing that, we have been here before. The consolidation is the really, really alarming part. And that is alarming on like a broader, you know, market level in terms of fewer movies and fewer more power being held in the hands of a fewer number of people who I don't agree with and whose taste I don't really like. But, and then also the consolidation of the industry, jobs lost, like the very basic, like working here in Los Angeles, which has been hit so many times this year. That's bad news. That, and but that's true of any of these outcomes. Yeah.

That might be the most important note is that this no longer being an independent entertainment entity is not really a good thing in a variety of ways. Okay, I guess we'll have to see what happens. Yeah, that's exciting. Yeah. Well, you know, the bitter irony of all of this news is that Warner Brothers has obviously had the best year of any major studio, at least to this point. They haven't, they don't have any more releases for the rest of this year. And they did it by doing what we want them to do, which is that they located two or three big properties, right? Two or three event movies, Minecraft, Superman. You know, we said, okay, we're going to put a lot of energy into those things. And then we're going to take some bets on some people we know we're talented, whose ideas we're think are good. And so we'll get sinners, we'll get weapons, we'll get one battle, we'll put a lot of eggs in those baskets, and maybe a few of them will hit. And most of them did. And now the takeaway from that is let's break it apart and actually not use that wisdom and actually be algorithmically minded in terms of how we produce content. It's just disappointing. It's disappointing.

Yeah. And part of it is that this is owned by some conglomeration that was created from the leftovers of three different conglomerations that was merged 20 years ago with, you know, our internet and got everything. Like, it's just, it has been like a chess piece in like a suits leverage game for so many years now. It's, it's a real shame. It is. Because they're part of the business where they make movies. Yeah. And people go see them. It's kind of working. That being said, the guys in the 1920s and 30s who built this business also flawed men who made a lot of mistakes and treated people badly. So it's not as though we've transitioned from a time of great peace and unity to a troubled moment. We are literally talking about a business named after

Jack Warner. That's right. That's right. Okay. Well, let's pivot away from that. We'll follow that story in December as it continues to evolve. I'm sure there will be a lot of news. Maybe we should talk to Matt at some point on the show to get his point of view on it as well because he's been doing great work reporting around that story. Let's talk about a success in movies thus far this year. Is it maybe a sort of a surprise success, though perhaps not, if you know what's really going on in the culture? So this is regretting you. This is the new feature film from Josh Boone, probably more specifically the new Colleen Hoover movie, which is probably how fans of it understand it. It stars Allison Williams, McKenna Grace, Dave Franco, Mason Thames, Scott Eastwood, Willa Fitzgerald, Clancy Brown.

The logline is this. When a devastating accident reveals a shocking betrayal, Morgan Grant and her daughter Clara explore what's left. behind as they confront family secrets, redefine love, and rediscover each other. Did you write that log line or did you copy and paste it from? Okay. Probably rotten tomatoes.

All right. What do you think about what I put there? Is that accurate? You know, it was like good parallel writing, so. Well, it's marketing material that I've reproduced here on the podcast. I'm sad we didn't see this together. Oh, yeah. I really, and honestly, when it came out,

I almost texted you being like, I think that we should just find a time to go see regretting you together. And we had other things to do and then we could only fit it in. You know, I saw a 1030 a.m. on a Tuesday screening. It seems like you were a Wednesday matinee a weekday. I was. I was. So I think the only thing that the, my only true regret is that this wasn't a communal experience. We're sharing it now. This is preposterous and also.

So I'm most excited I've been to talk about a film in many years. Okay, why? Because I thought, obviously it's bad and insulting to its audience and literature and the idea of human relationships and also human behavior. And I guess cinnophiles and definitely moms who like wine. But maybe even inspiration boards. But you and I don't really go in for like a. It's so bad, it's good. We don't.

And that's not, this is not so bad, it's good. But the ways in which it is bad and what it reflects about what works and movies and also just like what women are interested in right now, just socioculturally, I could talk about it all day with you. We've been joking a lot about how you and I are on a different internet. And this movie is just like making you be on my internet. And I say welcome. It's such a Rorschach test for what entertainment is right now.

because it's like, and I've said this before about even just working in podcasting, like we're in the era of the hyper niche, right? Everybody's a super expert on this really small thing, but actually there's more people who care about the small thing than you realize. This show is an example of that. And Colleen Hoover is an example of that.

And she has hordes of fans, even though she has this very hyper-specific style of melodramatic, soapy writing. Yeah, I think the Colleen Hoover thing is just insulated in a way. It is because of the nature of reading and also because the nature of TikTok which is like you open up your phone and you just sit there and get

you fed stuff. You don't go anywhere else. But Colin Hoover was propelled to success through Book Talk. She is gigantic, selling millions of books. Like this is a real thing. It is just siloed from the world that you and I live in

until we go to the movies. That's right. Last year we saw it ends with us together at an early access fan screening. And it was a lot of moms and their daughters or girls out on a girl's night. There were some boyfriends there. Some boyfriends.

And I'm sure some male Colleen Hoover fans too. And a lot of people who showed up like 45 minutes into the film. It was their big night out. Oh, into the film. Oh, yeah. But they were like wine drunk at McGuffins, you know? Yeah. Well, guess what?

You can bring it in to the movie. But that was the other thing was that it was a lot of people who we don't typically see at the movie theater. You know? And it ends with us. was a pretty sizable hit. And I would say the only other comp that I could make to that movie

over the last 12 months has been materialists where they're very different tonally, I think two very different kinds of artists Justin Baldoni and Celine's song. But they both actually, I think, probably captured similar audiences because there is something missing

in the culture right now that you can find on streaming but you can't find in movie theaters very often, at least in terms of marketing a movie, which is saying like there's this blend of sincerity and emotional relationship and maybe you'll get some humor and some fun too. And one leans in one direction, one leans in the other direction.

Materialist turned out to be more serious than we ever would have guessed based on the marketing. This movie turned out to be way fucking funnier than I ever would have guessed. They'll probably not on purpose. But it ends with us. You and I were both absolutely shocked by what it turned out to be. Yeah. But that was my introduction to the Colleen Hoover world. Yeah.

And I think I was just mystified by its appeal. I now feel more situated in this world. So regretting you, boy, this is an interesting movie. So Colleen Hoover seems to premise all of her films on these, like, very dramatic but unexplored misunderstandings. Misunderstanding is one way of putting it. Betrayals and or domestic sexual assaults and violence or another problem. This one is more betrayal than assault. Right.

Well, in the previous film, you know, this idea of sort of like memory-holling traumatic experience and then wrong footing an audience through a story by showing us what really happened. Like, this isn't quite in that same realm, but there is definitely like the hiding of information for dramatic reveal. Yeah. And then this movie does that within roughly the first 30 minutes. And then it's basically a reckoning movie. It's an aftermath movie. Something happens, and then everyone's trying to figure out how to cope with it.

It has another reveal, though, in incredible flashback form. So there are several different pieces. Actually, there are a couple more reveals. Let's get into the details. Yeah. So in this movie, Allison Williams and Willa Fitzgerald are sisters. The film opens with them as teenagers. Allison Williams is talking to Dave Franco, who's a close friend of hers.

Oh, yeah, I got there a little bit late. Okay. They're talking. and Allison Williams's character reveals to DeFranco's character that she is pregnant with Scott Eastwood's baby Dave Franco's character

whose name Jonah is when he learns his information is staring longingly at Allison Williams' character Morgan can see he feels for her wants her but she is pregnant Yeah

Smash cut flash forward These four people are grown up They're adults Yeah It feels like they're all living the same house together They live nearby, and they're celebrating a birthday party. They're, like, doing breakfast together in the morning, though, and, like, handing each other coffee and... Oh, no, no, so that's because it's Willa Fitzgerald's first day back at work after her maternity leave.

No, but that's a little later in the film. But even at the beginning of the movie, they're all in the house together. It's a birthday party. They're making a cake. It seems like they live together. It's very strange. Maybe they live down the road. And they're all grown up, and it turns out that Allison Williams and Scotty sort of gotten married, and they have a 17-year-old daughter who's been.

Lidman McKenna Grace, and Dave Franco's character has disappeared for some time. He's just come back into their world when Allison Williams and Willa Fitzgerald's mom has died or dad has died. I can't remember who it is who has died. Someone has died. Dave Franco returns,

has a one-night stand with Willa Fitzgerald. She gets pregnant. Yeah. And then she has his baby and he sticks around. And now that quartet of people has been reunited back in this small town. Is it in North Carolina? It is.

Within, in short order. Yeah. Willa Fitzgerald's character goes back to work. I guess she's a nurse, looks like. Maybe she works at the hospital. Yeah. And Scott Eastwood's character. She works, yeah, in labor and delivery.

Yeah. Scott Eastwood's characters, he's headed out to work one morning. McKenna Grace's character is going to school. Yeah. She's kind of a grouchy teen. That's right. She's having some drama with a guy who followed her and unfollowed her on Instagram. Yes.

And we very quickly learn that Jenny, Willa Fitzgerald character, and Chris Scott Eastwood's character have been having an affair. No, that's not what we learn. What we learn is that they are in a car crash. They're in a car crash together. Together. And any thinking person knows what's happened. Yeah, but here's how we learned it is incredible because there's a car crash.

Well, Willa Fitzgerald's character stops responding to the voiceover text messages that McKenna Grace's character is sending her from lunch period at school because this school has not banned phones yet. And then Allison Williams shows up at the hospital and is looking for her husband and asks for her sister. And then Dave Franco carrying a car seat, like backhanded like he's doing like a low five backside. I think that's how Nick carries his car seat to answer the question they're going to ask.

Why? But why? I think it's just an easier way to. carry it. I think it lightens the weight. Yeah, but I mean, I feel like you don't have enough support and that's really going to mess up your alignment. Anyway, and he shows up, but he's confused because he's looking for his wife. They both received calls about the car crash that their spouses were in. And then they finally make it into the interior and the doctor just says, I'm so sorry. And then like all sound cutouts, cuts out. And they both just crumple

the floor and then. Huge swell of Grey's Anatomy score, you know, like, Like, you know, Amen Dunes or whatever band is playing. And so they're both in an accident. So we learned that they're dead and thus that they were together and having an affair within this span of two minutes. Now, this is the big dramatic incident of the film. Happening in parallel, we've got McKenna Grace, the boy that she likes, Mason Thames. Are you sure that it's said Mason Tames? Mason Thames?

Well, I don't know. Mason Thames? Is it after the river? Or is it just... I don't think he was given his surname after the river. Right, I know, but are they pronounced... Are they British? Like, are they pronouncing it, like the Thames?

I'll call Mason. Let's see what he says. Mason plays a heart-throbby boy. Yeah, sure. Who is a cinephile. Yeah. And also loves his grandpa very much. And he's very close to his grandfather who's been ill, and he's sticking around to take care of him.

And he keeps moving the city limits sign so that he can get pizza delivered to his house. and McKenna Grace observes him stuck on the side of the road she picks him up, gives him a ride they meet cute this all happens in the setup to the movie and then their story is sort of like the will there won't they kind of back and forth

whereas he can dump his girlfriend or they're going to get together kind of classic teen romance stuff but also she lost her dad but that's her father dies in this car accident and she's coping with that and trying to figure out what's going on and while all that is happening

and while Morgan and Jonah are trying to figure out how to deal, we start flashing back to them as teenagers. And this movie, for the second time in 40 minutes, shows us Alison Williams and Dave Franco, who I think are 37 and 41. As their 17-year-old selves, I believe there's been some digital alteration

made to their faces. And freckles on Allison Williams's face. That doesn't go away when you get older, but nevertheless. Well, but you get lasers and stuff. You think that this woman, Morgan Grant, has gotten lasers to have freckles removed.

Yeah, it does not really seem in the budget. And they share a moment as 17-year-olds in a pool. And look into each other's eyes. He's clutching her arms. Yeah. They have chemistry. They have something. Unexplored.

Unexamined. They go back to their mates, their partners. But they're flashing back on this because obviously they're really, they're in love. They've always been in love. Yeah. And we know this at minute 42 of the film. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then there's another hour and ten minutes in this movie where we just have to, like, wait for them to get to the point where they realize that they're in love with each other.

And then, oh, McKenna Grace finds out, and she's devastated that they would be in love with each other. But she doesn't yet know that her father was cheating with her aunt, who was actually her best friend. And she's the person who she texted, and this would be devastating to her. But then the movie goes on. It's like, it's actually, it's okay. Everybody's going to be happy and it's going to work out. And people are going to get into college. Right.

Drama school. She's going to get into drama school, and he's going to become a film. student and he's going to be the next corsese and he's reading sydney lumet's making movies yeah it's on the bedside table while he's got a poster patriot games and witness yeah on his wall as a 17 year old boy living in north carolina in 2025 he has everything yeah what what 17 year old boy has a poster of witness on their wall i if there is a listener at home i mean i do they make movie posters of witness anymore it's probably a thousand dollars i'm sure you can get one but like I don't know. Someone, like, posted on Instagram recently that the podcast they started listening to when they were 16 was like now. And I was like, I can't.

Oh, about this show. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So listen. Absolutely. We're all dead. If there are posters of the big picture, I, you know, send those to us. It is true that the movie references that I clocked in the background, like, do end in 2002? Are they just Josh Boone's favorite movies? Like, what is that in the novel? Did Colleen Hoover write him as a boy who was trapped inside of 1989? I'm so confused by all that stuff. Didn't Google. The movie is really silly.

Like, tonally, it's trying very hard to be dramatic. But it has cast a bunch of people who are kind of like light comic actors. And then allows them absolutely no comic relief. Like, Dave Franco doesn't get to do one funny thing. But he does have to say, before, you didn't even talk about how they get to the flashback, which is, like, they're sitting there commiserating in her living room. And she says something about, you know, remember when, like, I don't even remember this time or blah, blah, I don't know. And he says, like, honestly, like, like a.

wrote, truly like it's AI Dave Franco. Yes. You know what gets me there is the music of the time. And then he starts, like, that is a real piece of dialogue that I wrote down verbatim. And on my phone during the screening. The song that plays is like an anonymous stereophonic song. I had never heard it. Like, it's just not a song that you're like, oh, God, this brings me right back to 2007

or whatever they're supposed to be going back to. And it's just like a series of near misses with this. Just texted us, I can't believe I'm getting the spoiled beat for beat, which is really funny. Sorry, Jack. I'm sorry to anybody who really wanted to see regretting you. It's been in movie theaters for one month. There are a series of moments like that where characters say things to each other. Yeah. I'm like, who, a person wrote this? And I individually did a person write this? We actually don't have confirmation that some of this dialogue wasn't written by a robot.

I mean, the screenplay is by Susan McMartman. I assume a person wrote this. Let's talk about Allison Williams and Dave Franco. I really like them both. I think they're both very funny and entertaining. I obviously have long had a soft spot for Allison Williams. Going back to girls, I think she's really good at being in on the joke. Like one of the great aspects of Marnie on girls is that she kind of knows the weird, desperate, I need to be famous thing that is in the tension of that character. Because she's also embodying that as like Brian Williams' daughter and a young aspirant actress.

And then if you've seen like the movies that she's made in the last 10 years, especially the Megan films, there's an element of camp. Yes. You know, she's becoming like kind of a genre queen and she's a very like, you know, nervey right on the surface actor and that directors usually know how to play that for laughs. Right. I mean, think to the famous scene of her and get out drinking the milk and Googling NBA draft prospects. Yes. So, but this movie is like, no, you're Merrill Street. you have to be the most serious dramatic actress in America and you have to sell this car accident and you have to sell your love for Dave Franco

who is normally extremely funny and energetic in movies and is a block of wood in this film but also like a weirdly ripped block of wood it's so confusing I know but it's like it doesn't match his frame you know what I mean but if you just flipped this and you made Willa Fitzgerald and Scott Eastwood the two leads

and put Allison Williams and Dave Franco and the other parts. Doesn't that make more sense? Yes, but then Allison Franco and Dave, no, Alison Williams and Dave Franco like disappear within 10 minutes of the movie, which is the problem. We're not as sad about saying about

those other two lesser-known actors, but just in terms of like the quality of performance, like Scott Eastwood can definitely do what Dave Franco is being asked to do here. Yes, which is nothing. Which is not very much, but to look good, right? To be desirable to a widow. Yeah.

To be like a sweet dad who has a masculine energy that you're excited about as you're grieving? Right. At some point, Allison Williams and Dave Franco

have to go to like the local holiday inn where Scott Eastwood's car still is. And they never, it turns out Scott Eastwood and Willif it's Gerald

never checked out of the local holiday. And so first Allison Williams is like we used to come here for special occasions, which is like really, really depressing.

Extremely dark. Like they're trying to locate this in. Is it a holiday inn? Is it not like a Kempton or something? I don't think it's quite a Kempton. I think it's somewhere in between. You're right that like it has more floors than I associate with a typical holiday end or like extended stay.

Yeah. But like they're in like a very vast empty parking lot that surrounds a hotel. It's not, like it's not screaming like staycation, you know? I agree. And where in North Carolina are they? So I could, it seems like sort of. I was going to say more like Raleigh Durham like research. triangle area thereabouts.

Cool. Lovely area of North Carolina. I've been. Yeah. So anyway, they drive there, they check out, they get their stuff, and then Allison Williams is like trashing her dead husband's car. Literally beating it. Literally beating it while wearing her home gear, which is like a dupe for a row sweater.

I think that's the coast sweater and sweatpants and her little Birkenstock things. and she's, like, trying to separate the muffler from the car. And it was the least compelling physical acting that I have seen in my lifetime, perhaps. I'm just like, this is not a person who acts this way. No. You know, she's trying. She's miscast. Yeah.

I think the direction has let these guys down quite a bit. I think the materials really let them down. She's better when she's in, like, worried. mom mode. Like, and then it gets her closer to like control freak Marnie. Though like, Alison Williams is forever too much of a control freak to like have had a teen pregnancy. That's a great point.

And then like, and like be at this point in her life where she's just like let go of everything. But when they're doing the inspiration board, you know, you can see like, I can see Allison Williams being like, now I will manifest this. I can see her dipping in being like, you need to get your attitude. Right, before you sleep with your... No, you're right. The stuff between her and McKenna Grace is actually

probably the best stuff in the movie. And that is maybe the most... That feels the most real. Like, I don't know if Colleen Hoover's a mom or not, but there's definitely something about the tension between teen girls and their moms and especially younger moms who are closer in age to their daughters

and that there is like a closeness that then can really fracture hard. Yeah. And that stuff is cool and we've seen it before in movies, but like it doesn't... It's not embarrassing. Right. Kind of anytime there's a boy on the screen,

it's like what... Who wrote this alien? Yeah, yeah, yeah. The Mason-Tens character and the Dave Frankel character are both so weird. Can we talk about how... They have no interior life? No, no, no. Excuse me.

The teen boy character, I can't say... Mason. Yeah. One name Mason, because I don't know how to pronounce his last name. Works at an AMC. And there is extensive AMC spawncon. So much. In this film.

So much. I mean, you've got the logos. You've got... Do they make like a... like an A-list joke In the film Like multiple scenes are set there Yeah

Did these films Did this film play in regal theaters? I saw it at a regal So I was like What's going on here? It's fascinating Do you think they had fewer screening times Fewer screens

In other competing theaters Because of this clear relationship Between the studio? I didn't do the work I didn't do the research But I would assume so So this guy works at an AMC But he's like my favorite movie

is Patriot Games. Very weird. Like, not a movie you saw when you were 10? Listen, I don't know. In 2015? Maybe he's just really into Harrison Ford. Again, like, what? I don't know.

Okay. Mason Times' character's fine. There's definitely are boys like that. I'm kind of a boy like that. I love old movies, and I'm a cinephile and all that stuff. But it just feels like very manufactured. He's employed. And he has, he has, he has.

great care for his relatives, right? He's really looking, Clancy Brown, the great Clancy Brown, one of the great character actors, kind of just like doing his absolute best. Yeah. I think he knows this isn't his best, the best material he's ever been a part of.

Also, Mason's character, uh, takes McKenna Grace's character on a date to seek clueless at the aforementioned AMC. Yeah, what you think about that? And then they're, well, they were making out too much to actually see the film,

but that's okay. But then they do have a moment to discuss that she is still, a virgin much like Cher and that she's going to wait until they're going to wait until promenade and he's very respectful. So nice to just see Dan Hadea projected on screen again, you know?

Just that his wonderful performance and clueless as Cher's dad. So this movie, of course, is a hit. It's a more modest hit than it ends with us, but it's kind of tracking to get over $50 million in the U.S., which is a lot for these kinds of movies, especially this fall where we've been

talking about how movies are not doing so hot. And you were kind of circling this, but like, what does this mean as an interesting conversation? We've got two more Colleen Hoover movies coming next year. Yeah. You've got reminders of him starring Micah Monroe, and then Verity, which stars Dakota Johnson. Reminders of him also stars Bradley Whitford and Lauren Graham as the parents. And Tyreek Withers.

Yes. And they ask Bradley Whitford to punch Tyreek Withers at some point during the trailer, which I only recently saw. And I was very, very concerned. I think Bradley Woodford also gets to say the line, if not for her, our son would still be alive. And I want to point that out, because that film also features a critical car crash as a plot point. So, like, how many car crashes are there in the Colleen Hoover universe?

I don't know. Like, is this a recurrence where, like, people keep dying in car crashes, and then that gets the engine of the story going? Pardon the pun? I probably. I mean, I think some of the other, I have not read the full Uber. there are many, many books. I mean, I think, like, domestic violence

or, like, bad relationships are also a theme. And I shouldn't conflate the two. But, like, you know, domestic violence is one theme and then also just sort of imbalance of power and, you know, like emotional abuse, maybe. And then I think teen pregnancy definitely figures. And not a lot of things where it's just people, like ships passing in the night, you know?

So I just want to say, there's nothing inherently wrong with melodrama. And melodrama has been a part of Hollywood history, like always, you know? Like, on with the wind is a melodrama. Douglas Cirque movies, like the way we were, speaking of Redford, steel magnolias.

Like, these kinds of movies have always been here. They're always successful. The movies I just named are good. And these movies are, these Colleen Hoover stories just seem like real rickety and lame. I understand why they work. I do feel that for the last like 20 years prior to her rise, a lot of this stuff was confined to Lifetime, the Lifetime channel? Well, to me, Nicholas Sparks is the, is the comparison. Yeah.

And, you know, I had written in my notes like, it's like Nicholas Sparks, like minus. the teen pregnancy, but then I googled the plots of a lot of Nicholas Sparks novels because there are many of them. He's publishing at a volume, not unlike Colleen Hoover. And there are a lot of people who are single parents or had their kids young or whatever. So he might be slightly more interested in older people. That's what I was going to say. I think of that as a frame for him. But I think, but that's also just because those are the more successful adaptations that were you know, like specifically the notebook, which does also have, you know, the teens, teen versions of those characters have sex in the room with the piano in the house.

Colleen Hoover, to me, this is completely speculative, having just seen two movie adaptations of her work, but she seems to be singling out single divorced moms. Like, that seems to be like her core audience in terms of the stories that she's telling and the kinds of characters that she wants you to feel for, which is, of course, like a ripe audience. There's plenty of people who would love to read stories where they feel seen in those stories. There's nothing really inherently wrong with that. I'm just kind of like, okay, so now three movies in a row, just having seen the reminders of him trailer, where I'm like, something bad happened, and then we've got to spend an hour figuring out, like, what happens next after the bad thing that happened?

Right, and do people. But, I mean, that is, I'm looking at all of the Nicholas Sparks adaptations. The notebook, for sure, something bad happened. They were separated, and then we, and then dementia. A walk to remember. I haven't seen that. I think that's cancer. I think that's like terminal illness.

Is that Mandy Moore? Yes. And Shane West? That sounds correct. Okay. Yes. And let's just make sure that it's Shane West. It is.

Yes. Message in a bottle. I don't really remember what happened to... That's Costner. Yeah, yeah, Kevin Costner. Robin Wright Penn? Yeah. And she's a newspaper editor.

Okay. But I think he lost someone in his life. Okay. Dear John is Amanda Seifred and Channing Tatum. I don't really remember what happened. Last song, Miley Cyrus, Liam Hemsworth. That's young people and something bad happened. Should we do a Nick Sparkspot?

I guess so. I mean, but it is, you know, these are all ridiculous. They're young love or people. Hate me with an anniversary. What's a good 2026 anniversary? Is there any 2006 Nick Sparks movies? So the choice, which I've never seen. The Choice.

The Choice. The Choice. A 2016 romantic drama. Two neighbors who fall in. in love at their first meeting. The movie stars Benjamin Walker, who I loved,

Teresa Palmer, Maggie Grace, Alexandra Diderio. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, go back. Teresa Palmer,

Maggie Grace and Alexandra Diderio in the same movie? Yes. Tom Welling, and I will give you it $1 million if you can name

the lead the aunt and who's the last person credited here. Whoopee Goldberg. Tom Wilkinson. All right, so what happens in this? So Travis is a veterinarian. And also another similarity between Colleen Hoover movies and Nicholas Sparks.

Nicholas Sparks movies or films are all set in. The South. And most North Carolina, because that's where it is. So this is Wilmington, North Carolina. Falls in love with Gabby Holland. She lives in the house next door. They don't like each other at first. There's a complication with a rescue dog and puppies.

They spend time together. They start a relationship. Other people come back. Uh-oh, traffic accident. She survives it, is now in a coma. Travis has shown her DNR order and asked to sign it. Oh my God, does he sign it? A hurricane hits their house.

Moby helps Travis find the wind chimes. She's welcomed Gabby. Gabby wakes up. Wait, Gabby wakes up. I thought we're supposed to do this with a pod. What are you doing? Why did you do that? I was going to keep reading.

It's on Wikipedia. And, and there's also, oh, there's a child, but it's not theirs. And great. Okay. Woo. So the choice was actually, it was not about abortion, but it was related. And they chose, quote, unquote, life. It's so perfect that we've talked about this film and this wave of films ahead of the sentimental value conversation.

Yeah. Because they're not dissimilar. You're right. You're right. You're right. Like, sentimental value is a drama with elements of melodrama. It is a family drama in which misunderstandings between family members have seeded over long periods of time. Yeah.

And has driven division between people who ostensibly love each other. It's kind of a perfect match, though, to say, like, here's how you can do it one way and here's how you can do it another way. Now, you don't have to like either one or you can love both. that I'm not saying that they're mutually exclusive and I didn't have the worst time ever regretting you. I thought it was, I think if you go in looking to laugh, it's a lot of fun. Because the

line readings are preposterous. We didn't even talk about the third eye blind Grey's Anatomy cover. Every one of these has like a ridiculous song of our youth covered in the like wispy style that was often featured of crazy. Yeah. And this was

how's it going to be? Which is iconic stuff. All bad. And in sentimental value as well. Like music is a huge part of it. It's like kind of a needle drop bonanza where there's all these songs that Trier is choosing to kind of make you feel something, but they're all slightly more obscure and slightly more, you know, art house

artistic. I've been looking forward to talking with you about this movie. So this movie is like one of the big movies at Cannes. I think we've seen now and we'll get into what we do the rankings that really the Cannes films have kind of held weight over a nine month period that has defined this year. And one of the

reasons why I think that the fall has felt so soft to us is because we've kind of known about all these movies for a very long period of time. So when you look at this and you look at it was just an accident and you look at Blue Moon, which was at Berlin, and you look like a handful of films that really made their mark

in the spring, it didn't feel like what hit in September and October felt very meaningful. But sentimental value now, after hearing about it for a long time, is finally in theaters that's going wide this week. And it is a reunion of Trier and Renata Renzvi, who I think made a lot of noise in the United States

with the worst person in the world. True, he's been making movies for 20 years, but that film seemed to click more. It was Academy Award nominated. Renada Renzvi has now been kind of like integrated into the Hollywood system. And then also, the film also stars Dellen Scars Guard and El Fanning to very familiar faces

to U.S. movie fans. Also, Inga, Ibsdaer Lilias, who is the sister character to Renata Renzi's character. Anders Danielson Lee also appears in the film. He appears in almost every movie that Trir makes. So the story of this movie is, after the death of their mother Cecil, sisters, Nora and Agnes, are forced to confront their father, Gustav,

who is a once famous filmmaker who's been kind of estranged over a period of time. Nora is an actress. Agnes is a researcher. They have a complex relationship as sisters. They have a complex relationship to their father. And then the film uses the home that they grew up in, which then is now emperienced. after their mother has passed away, as a kind of portal into their family history. So much like the worst person in the world, this is like a very montage-driven, very literary

portrayal of a few people in crisis as opposed to a single person in crisis. Like, worst person in the world was like one woman's Saturn's return, like, going crazy for two and a half hours. And this is sort of like if everyone was all having their Saturn returns at the same time. I'm really moved that you're using Saturn return. I think that's what it is. It is, but I didn't know you. Once again, I didn't know that it's the internet you were on. Well, I have a lot of depth.

So, I love the worst person in the world. I really like Trier's movies. I don't love all of the films that came before this. You know, he did this, like, Oslo trilogy. That was the worst person was the final film in that group. But this is one of my favorite movies of the year. I was, like, completely knocked out by it emotionally. I think there's, like, a discovery as an actor here.

There's, like, an actor that I've always loved in Stell and Scarsgard. I think doing, like, some of his best work. It has been interesting, though, to watch, and I eagerly await your thoughts on it, a mixed response in the last couple of months. This won the, what is the name of the second prize? The Grand Prix. The Grand Prix at Cannes at Cannes and was immediately identified at out of Cannes as one of the big awards contenders, I think, and a large part because of Worth Person and the world's, you know, success here in the U.S. and then you I believe saw it this summer and you texted me

sentimental value will win best picture Yes before I had seen one battle Yes exactly But so I remember that text message very much I absolutely loved worst person in the world So I think that it was my favorite movie of that year When I saw that movie I thought of you the whole time

I was like this is such an Amanda movie It was electric So all this is say my expectations were incredibly high And I saw it much later than everyone else And I think that the most responsible way that I can put this is that this is the afterson annual I'm Dead Inside award for the film. I just didn't, that I admired and I think is structurally and intellectually very sound incredible performances. Like everything is there and I just didn't connect to it. Like I just didn't.

I understand why other people did. And but I feel like a little outside, like left out. What am I missing? I've seen it twice because I was so confused the first time. Interesting. I think some of that is because of the subject matter. And I think that this is a film about family relationships and making art and also about depressed characters, about multiple depressed characters and how they express it over time.

It is very much the cycle of depression through families. Yes. But a lot of it is centered in Nora. the Renata-Renzvi character, who is playing, I mean, it's a very, very honest representation of depression, but it is,

like, it's durational. It puts you in it. It's cinematic inertia, yeah, yeah, because she's not talking, and she's feeling pain, but quietly. And so, and it communicates the inability to connect, and at some points I've wondered,

is my inability to connect with this, like, part of the point? because that is what it feels like to be depressed. And I would know because I've been there. So, but it's still also a film. And so you're trying to invest in their protagonists. And I, like, I couldn't quite get there. And then there are so many other things going on around it that I didn't, I never knew what I was supposed to latch on.

And there was nothing to latch on to. And that is, again, a great definition of depression. Mm-hmm. But tricky as a movie. Can I tell you what I latched onto? Yeah. This was even more acute the second time that I saw the movie. Because when I sat down to watch it the first time,

I was going in expecting Bernada Renzvi our new Merrill Street. This will be her centerpiece performance. It will be an even bigger film than the last film. Right. You have to see this because of what she does in this movie. And she's not given a lot, she's given a lot to do in that very first sequence that we see her where she has stage fright. And then after that, she kind of recedes within the movie. And she has a couple of confrontations with her dad, but it's not as explosive as you expected to be.

And in fact, her sister and her father are the ones who get more to play in the movie. But a constant conversation between my wife and I in our life is what does our daughter have that comes from her and what comes from me? And what is a trait that I have and what is a trait that my wife has? and the way that you pass things down to your kids. And in this movie, Nora and Gustav, the father and the daughter, are very similar. And it can be beautiful to be very similar to one of your parents. And it can be really challenging to be similar to one of your parents.

And they're like two magnets. And they repel each other. They can't connect. And so because we don't get any scenes, really, of Stellans Garsgaard and Renaud-Rinzvi, connecting and making sparks. It feels like anti-cinematic. But I feel like it's very true to what it's like to be in a,

family. And I have these relationships with people in my family. So you don't get some of the things that you, there's a real lack of catharsis in this movie at times where you're looking for it. But that felt like a very honest representation to me of what it's like to be close but apart from somebody that you care about. And the Gustav character, I think maybe just for me specifically is just kind of a catnip guy. He's like a distant father who's a filmmaker. So all of his concerns, all of his egotism, all of his creativity, all of his nostalgia and longing, all of his sense of self, that's just a rich character for me. I'm just into that. I love directors. I've interviewed hundreds of directors on this podcast because I think they're so interesting.

They're these like domineering figures who are also so sensitive and wounded and like really want to be understood. It's a really unusual personality type. And it's not just men. The female filmmakers are like that too, but there's, especially an older male director is like, is a rich character to me. And Trier is a guy who's from a long line of filmmakers in Norway. His grandfather was a filmmaker. His father was a sound designer. He's a director.

This feels like a very true representation of those kinds of guys. So I think there's also, and you're saying it's purposeful and creating that is the intent to create the feeling, like the disjointedness. But there are several different movies in this film. So you can really see that the Stellans Garsgaard character and his adventures with the El Fannin character who is playing an American movie star who comes to Gustav's work. At the Doeville Film Festival, which I would love to visit. As would I. Doeville, Doeville? I think Doeville.

Okay. And she is at the height of or, you know, ascendant in Hollywood. and sees his film and wants to work with him. And so he gets slurped into the Hollywood machine for a bit. And it doesn't really pan out. And the whole process is played. She's like very responsible about the whole thing. All the people around her are hilarious, including the tall man who played Chevy Chase.

Yes. What's his name? Corey Smith. Right. And, you know, she has a team that are just always on their phones all surrounding her as she tries to have an artistic connection with this person. This movie's a bit unsparing about

Hollywood and Netflix. Yes. And so it did feel like that was written from his experience. That was all very knowing and very funny and very sharp. But then how it connects to the Nora, the Renata Renzi character. By the

way, it was like not lost in me that her name was Nora. You know, I'm like, hello. That's a you know, from a doll's house, which is an Ibsom play. And one of the great female characters in the theatrical tradition. But I guess it's like not supposed to connect until the end. But like it really doesn't connect. So until the end.

Which part? What aspect? Do Stell and Scars Guard's like Hollywood Adventures and, you know, Nora and Renata Rensby, like not being able to go on stage? I mean, I think I understood it much more. the second time, but I felt like I understood it the first time, too, which is just like the failures of the Gustav character and his desire to reconnect and her unwillingness to reconnect lead him on this journey of trying to replace the feeling of having a daughter. And he can't. And I thought that the, first of all, the first time I watched it, I thought El Fanning was a little out of place in this movie. And then the second time I watched it, I thought she was one of the best parts about the movie. Oh, interesting. And I think she's given a really hard job here with this part because she, nine times out of ten this character is written as like flip and uninteresting and unintelligent and just like a vacuous Hollywood vessel. Yeah. And I

think she's really trying to, they're trying to write her and she's trying to portray a really sincere person who's trying to do better work. And she's been cast into this impossible situation where she's not the filmmaker's daughter and she's not the filmmaker's mother and the filmmaker's

trying to reckon with all of these feelings that he has about this long history that he would never know how to talk to his family about, but that he can only work through in his art about the way that these people are trapped by their own despair. And El Fanning is like doing everything she can as an artist to try to meet the moment. She's going to... You mean El Fanning's character. El Fanning's character, yes. She's trying to sound more like a Norwegian. She's trying to look more like his daughter. Yeah. She's trying to live inside the experience of this home and try to basically go to

like one of the darkest stories you'll ever see in a movie, just a very Bergman-esque, like, you know, a despairing mother who commits suicide. And then, like, apparently that's the end of the film. That's a lot of weight to put on a character. And she can't get there. And the movie shows them. I think that scene is really beautiful where...

She comes back and he says you could have just gone through agents. Yes. No, I do as well. And I think... I think there's, like, a radical empathy thing that is corny, but I think actually really works in his movies. And I know that some people are just going to reject it and not like it,

but I just feel like it does feel sincere to me. I completely agree. And, you know, it's like I like both of those performances and I like that storyline. And there's also a part when Stall and Scars Guard is trying to make the film and he goes to meet his old editor, I believe.

His old cinematographer. He's all cinematographer. Yeah. Peter. And it's about, you know, like, oh, we can just pick up right where we left off, but time comes for us all. And also his... him confronting

his own loyalty versus his aspirations it's great and I also I don't mean to dismiss the Nora plot line where like all of her

all of her stage fright which is you know very obvious psychological stuff just manifesting is bizarre and riveting and memorable

and she's very very good and I understand intellectually how they're connected but I think the only time I felt anything emotionally. There were two scenes, which is one with the other daughter, Agnes, tells her father,

Gustav, that she doesn't want her son to be in the film because of the same experience she had being in one of Gustav's films as a child. And this actress, who is new to me, lights out amazing throughout also looks so much like our friend Carrie I was like

I had to see it twice because the first time I was just like this is really weird they found like Norwegian Carrie but but she

and I think her character is supposed to be the one who can synthesize emotion and at the end she also synthesizes emotion to she acts as a conduit

between these two characters so I get it But that means that you only really, like, feel emotion when you have her and or when they're talking about the house. This is a fantastic house movie. And I think some of it is that the film opens with, from the house's perspective. You know, we didn't talk about this when we talked about train dreams. But this movie and train dreams use the same tool, which is a narrator. Yeah.

And in an attempt to be even more literary, to kind of grace us with context for what's happening with these characters. The key character that the narrator shares with us, especially the beginning of sentimental value, is the house that you're talking about, where we learn about kind of its lifespan, what it has lived through, what the family has lived through in this home when they were in, when they were out,

when someone came in to take care of it, when they returned to it. I can see why people would not like that, that there is like a pretentiousness potentially into the way that's delivered. I loved it. No, no. I mean, the only issue is that,

like, the film starts that way, It's so tight and so has such a point of view and, like, evokes emotions and sets the scene. And then I think the rest of the film becomes a bit more distant until you get one more shot of the home where, like, to me, the most emotional part of this film was a late-in-life shot of the home. Okay. I don't know what that says about me. Not Inga Ibstotter, like losing it in front of her father about after they had. that experience making the movie together and then no i don't know i mean like i thought that was really good but wow this structure you are dead inside well i said that i was that's the name of the award

you know it's a good award and listen also after son also a film about parents and depression yeah and and i think communicates the experience like an amazing performances formally um like interesting and playing with those ideas as well and i they're similar yeah but various Is it like a just a connectedness that I, I know I've said that 45 times, but I feel on the outside. You may not know this yet because I don't think you've seen the film, but we will be talking about AfterSun again because of a choice made in a movie that is coming out in December. I mean, I have seen, well, I don't know which film, but now that I'm thinking about it, I'm thinking about the shot and sentimental value where it's the three faces and they're going right, which is not dissimilar to the end of the aftersum. Yes, that's not what I'm referring to. Is that another Paul Maskell film?

No. Oh, interesting. I don't want to spoil it for you. All right. I, it's probably good because I think we're representing... Oh, I know what movie you're talking about now. People got to just really keep their display tighter because I know now and it's been spoiled for me. I'm sorry to hear that.

It's okay. I think it's probably good that we're representing the two sides of the coin in terms of how this movie will be received. Because I think some people will be like, this didn't really do too much for me, but I do respect it. Yeah. And some people will say, like, this kind of moved me to take. tears. I think I really like what Trier does formally, too. I think, like, his use of montage, his sense of, like, disorienting where you are in the story at any given time, his ease and comfort moving back and forth between the past and the present day. And then, you know, there's a very

clever reveal at the end of the film in terms of what is being displayed. I think he's got real moves. Like, I just think he's a really interesting designer of movies, you know? And it's been so interesting watching a lot of critics that I really respect. like, I didn't buy this at all. And I get, you know, it's just, it's obviously a completely subjective experience, but he is trying to do something that is super sincere. And that sincerity can sometimes really bump up against people, too as being just like a little bit too much, a little bit too cute, a little bit too. But I would also say that there's a real distance to the sincerity, that it doesn't, you know, you can feel both of those things, but you like to have it, you know, far away from you.

But you always frame me as that way. I love a really sincere movie. So, I mean, so do I, like, the right kind of, I mean, it's a great title for a movie. Like, I actually will buy into sentimentality more than you will, and I think that this has none. And I, I mean, it's, which is the point, right? That's the thing. So, this stuff is sincere, but it is, it's meant to be missing the kind of gloppiness that comes with sentimentality. Now, as I said, I've seen some critics say, like, it's actually working against itself.

That by trying to reveal that there is, like, a hard truth underneath the performance of family or love or whatever, that it's actually exposing that there's, like, artifice in this creation. I don't see it that way, but I do respect it. I did think a bit the second time I saw it of the Royal Tenenbaum's, I do think that it actually has a lot in common with that movie. The narration and starting with the house and where everyone is in the house. Strong patriarch comes back into the family, a family of artists or lost artists, people who are aspiring to be bigger. Depression? Yeah, the mental stability of the family, you know, the fact that, like, someone like Chaz is inherited a lot from his own father, but they can't really connect with each other. So I also think it's, like, pretty funny.

Like, there's an incredible scene where Gustav, who's reconnected with his family, comes to see his grandson on his eighth birthday, and he gives him a birthday present. And, you know, we love to see it. He gives him physical media, gives him the piano teacher and irreversible on DVD. Really funny. Which is just great stuff for an eight-year-old. And it is a movie about, like, reconciliation. which is hard. But also, I feel this very much in my own life. Once I had a kid, I just have immediate empathy for my parents. And I just understand my parents a lot better. I understand why

they did what they did to survive. I understand why they, it doesn't mean that everything is forgiven or everything is accepted. But I understand. And it's funny. I don't at all. I opposite direction. But that's, you know, well, but that's. That's so you. I mean, I just, I think mistakes were made. Well, of course. Of course. But the circumstances under which they transpired matter. They matter. Think about how you felt when things were hard. Well, we don't need to get into it. This is not my therapy session. But I think it's the fact that it wants to confront you with those ideas, though, I think it's to its credit. And I'm kind of curious about how this movie goes through the world. Yeah. It is, I think, been the highest grossing per screen release of the year. And in its limited release, it does seem like it is. connect it feels like one of the very few art house movies where it has strong word of mouth you know the angelica theaters of the world are like we love this movie right the kind of the more

informed cineophile sineas are checking it out you know i don't i don't think it's going to make a hundred million dollars or anything but it it's it's going to be present in our lives over the next few months let's talk quickly about the Oscars okay around it unless there's anything else you want to say about the film i you can listen to me talk with um yokeem as well he's spoke in great detail about the making of the movie, but we'll get into all the best picture stuff soon. It's definitely going to be nominated for best picture. I would be stunned if it was not nominated for best picture. Um, actress? Everyone's been holding a spot. Um, it's, it is a good performance, but again,

sort of the, by definition, the black hole at the center of the film, because that is what she's trying to represent. So, I don't know. I think, I think, I think, I think it's, there are 10 spots in Best Picture and five spots in Best Actress. So you could see it going a little to the wayside. There are two contenders for supporting actress. You've got El Fanning and Inga Ipsother Lilius. Ingalilius Ipstater? No, Inga Ipstater Lilius, yeah.

Either, neither? I think it would be Inga Ipster Lilius. I know El Fanning's having like a, you know, she's in Predator, she's in something else. Will you watch Predator Badlands? I listened to most of you guys talking about it on the podcast. My tradition is to enjoy The Predator Films as acted out by Chris Ryan. So I respect her and salute El Fanning and all that she's doing. What's the third thing that I'm nothing?

The Hunger Games trailer. That's right. Everyone, I'm very sorry. Lenny Kravitz was the stylist in The Hunger Games, but he made such, I know. I fucked up. I'm really sorry. You were so confident, too. I know, because I remembered the stylist being so key.

I think his name is Sina with a C, and I didn't Google that. So I fucked up, but also, like, it did stay with me. Yes, and made this feeling stay with you of being incorrect. When you're wrong, you're wrong, and you got to own it. That's right. You got to own it. Here I am. I fucked up.

Yeah. Let's talk about supporting actor. Yeah. Because this is very, this is probably the place where this movie gets recognized. Yeah. Now, Stellant Scarsguard, I think you could make the cases the least. lead of this film? I do as well. I think you just made

the case that what you responded to in this film was Stellan Scarthard's story. He gets the most depth, you know, or at least if Renzi, he doesn't have as much dialogue because of what her character is enduring. He gets to explore the most about his life and how he sees the world and his

relationships through a number of different ways. He's being pitched as the supporting actor, maybe because they think he has just a better chance to win. I think at the European Film Awards he was nominated for Best lead, which should tell you something. So, supporting actor this year, I'm going to give you some names. Okay.

Okay. This is, again, coming from Variety. Andrew Scott for Blue Moon. Yeah. Billy Crutt up for Jay Kelly, rising in people's minds. Yeah. Delroy Lindo and Sinners. William H. Macy in Train Dreams.

Adam Sandler and Jay Kelly. And then the top five here, Jacob Allorty and Frankenstein, Paul Meskell and Hamnet, Benicio del Toro in one battle after another, Sean Penn in one battle after another. and sitting in first place as Stellan Scars Guard. Yeah. I think Stellan, Benio,

and Sean Penner locks. Maybe not locks, but... They feel tight. So what do you think of the last two, if you had to guess? Who is four and five

on the variety list right now? Meskell and Allorty. Allorty seems rising, especially as Frankenstein just kind of locks in, and that is what people are responding to. And he's just, I mean, he's great for awards season.

I'm obviously biased. So are you now. We sat together in a movie? Let's see. My little sister Grace could not have been more excited about that news. I mean, I was also so excited. And I was like trying to rate it in. I just, I really understand what everyone's.

He's very tall. He's, I listen, you don't have to tell me. I'm kind of tall. He was very tall. He was very tall. The Hamnet thing, I guess... You gotta get your head around it. No, I know, I know it's happening.

No, I totally know it's happening. And it's happening more and more and more. And so I think that it's strong enough that that probably brings Mescalan as well. So... I think so. I'm not totally sure. You know, I thought very certain that Sandler would be nominated after seeing J. Kelly.

And now I'm seeing people say, like, oh, actually, I like Billy Credit Pacek has one scene in that movie and we'll talk about it in a couple of weeks. But it's a very memorable. scene. And he's always great. In Venice, everyone started applauding during that scene. During that scene. And it was otherwise silent in that theater. That's so interesting. Yeah. I know. And people love him and he's been working for 30 years. Yeah. I think that would be a bit of a crime against Sandler. And I think that's a tough part that he had, but we can talk about it when we get there. William H. Macy and Del Orlando and Andrew Scott,

I don't think is happening. So maybe it's the two guys from Jay Kelly, the two guys from one battle, Meskell, Elorty, and Scars Guard in a knife fight. Scarsguard being the leader is interesting. thing. It would be a good win. It would be kind of in its time win. Somebody who's contributed a lot to films over the years. He's like really leaning into it, you know, and like the real life film patriarch. You know, Alexander is like out on the trail

sort of for Pillion and sort of, you know, part of this Gar's Guard family legacy. He saw it for the first time at Telryrd and he was like blown away by it. And also, you know, it's a movie about like kind of an Ashton father who's working in the film film industry.

Other nomination potentials, I mean, I really think best director is in play. Screenplay, original screenplay, definitely in play. Yes. International feature definitely in play. I mean, this is like, also neon having every international feature nominee is going to be utterly bizarre, but that's very much in play.

We'll have to do, I was thinking about how we probably need to do like an international feature episode and a documentary feature segments in January. So we can plot that out too. Which takes us to Best Picture. So let's talk about the rankings. I think a lot has changed. I do as well.

Last time we did this, I felt like not much had changed, and now it's been 30 days. Yeah. Last time we went Bagonia at 10, J. Kelly at 9, it was just an accident at 8. Marty Supreme at 7, Wicked for Good at 6, Frankenstein at 5, sentimental value at 4, sinners at 3, Hamnet at 2, 1 battle at 1. I think our top 5 could stay the same if you want to, like, switch sinners in Hamnet. I think Marty's going to 5. Oh, even over Frankenstein? There's a ton of people have seen it now and everybody loves it.

I haven't talked to a person doesn't like it. And like, to me, the campaign thing is... Marty might be at four. Okay. I mean, I love it. Like, give me a jacket. A-24. Josh.

Timothy doesn't know who I am and we'll never see this. But, like, I will wear it for the Marty Supreme episode and for, like, let's guarantee like five wears before Oscar night. Five wears. Yeah. Just like out and about? I'm like... No, no.

On the show. Five times on the show? Just to get a jacket? That's a lot. Think of your, what is yourself worse? I know, but like wardrobe is getting really annoying. So if I could just get through it, I'd like the blue one. You just do what I do, which is just get a dark sweater and just wear variations all the time.

I don't think I don't have dark sweaters. I have to coordinate with you and the set design about, like, who's wearing Navy on any given day. We have 300 people here working on set design. I would welcome a jacket. I don't want pink. I don't think pink is my color. I thought it looked great on Timmy. I would prefer the blue

If you have black I'll take a black Okay But I'll wear it Like I'm in Okay I like this film I liked this film

Before the jacket came out So you're not buying me I'm just saying Can we continue in another direction? Well you wanted to talk about it Being powerful And it's number four I think the marketing's been very good

And they have kind of gotten A lot of people There have been many screenings in L.A. and New York in the last six weeks or so since the New York Since the New York Festival premiere And it's working The same feeling that you had

The day after I saw it where we were both like, whoa, this is really fun. Yeah. Like, this is a really good and exciting and energetic and Timmy living up to the thing that we want from him. So I will say... They should send me a jacket and you a ping pong head. And you just wear a ping pong ball head for that entire recording.

I do not agree to do that. Do you have any... Do you see anything changing about one battle hamnet and sinners in the order in which we have them? Spielberg just hosted a hamnet screening. Yeah. And people loved it. Sinners, there's a lot of, like, like, if you forget about sinners, I will kill you on social media right now.

So there's that energy going on. Ryan Coogler just got a star on the Walk of Fame. Yeah. I spent at least 10 minutes last night trying to figure out how much time Haley Steinfeld spills in Buffalo every year because the bills were playing. Yeah, a bit a tough season for the bills. I know. And she hangs back.

I did learn that there's an Italian restaurant in Buffalo that they like to go to. That's what Josh says. One Italian restaurant? Before, that's sort of their pre-grave ritual, which would suggest. And they were photographed in downtown Buffalo once this. summer. That's all I was able to learn about Haley Steinfeld. I have nothing bad to say about Buffalo. I've never visited. It is, of course, my home state of New York. They are by far the best football team in the state of New York, but, like, bar none. So I hope Josh Allen is fine. I have nothing

bad to say about him. He's an amazing football player. Haley Steinfeld says things in sinners that blew my mind. I thought she was fantastic. So Oscars are March, so he would be on the offseason. He would be able to go to the Oscars. You will be there? You think so? I'll bet a million dollars he'll be at the Oscars. Good for him.

You don't want to take that bet? No, I don't. Okay. Remember when I offered you a million dollars to be able to name Tom Wilkinson in the 2016 film The Choice? Wait, it was 2016? I thought it was 2006.

No, 2016. Ten years next year. I've literally never heard of that movie. You told the entire plot. Okay. So do you want to keep one Battle Hamnet, sinners, and then Marty in that order? I mean, do you want to do...

Let's pull. back for a second. Is there any chance in your heart of hearts? Let's fucking get into it. Okay, let's do it, Amanda. It's so hot. Is anything going to beat one battle after another? Or is this just going to be the same conversation between you and I for four months? And then it wins everything? Yeah. I mean, the Hamlet thing's real. It's not out yet, so we can't really do the thing yet that we're supposed to do. And I suppose, and now I have to go see Hammond again. I do too. I haven't seen it in months now. Yeah. So that movie comes out in limited release on November 26th, but we're not going to talk about it on the show until wide.

So it's going to be a little while before we actually get into it. Yeah. I liked it with notes. You had different thoughts. I was very mixed on it. And the things about it that worked really worked for me. I was blown away by them. And the things that didn't work, I remain really frustrated by.

Okay. Well, we'll get through that. I wonder how many people will feel the way that you do. I feel that both this, that film and sentimental values, You both have a lot of, like, are we sure that this is totally working? And that makes it just a little weaker for those two movies. I guess Sinners has, there's no perfect film this year. The one battle thing most closely fits the like, let's just, let's just anoint.

You know, it's time to anoint. So I haven't really been moved off of that yet. Marty is really interesting because it's getting a lot of positive response. But Josh is so early in his career that I think it's going to be really hard. Even if that film ends up becoming like a box office hit and beloved, which it could. Like, that could happen. It's still going to be really hard to get over the one battle thing.

Because he's so young. He's turning 30, two days after the release of this film. I mean, if I had to give the award to somebody this year, I'd give it to him. I'm also available for his 30th birthday party, just to let him know. Available to do what? Just to be there. To attend? Yeah.

Okay. What if you were asked to do a live pod from the event? Would you do it? Live jam session from Timmy's party? One thousand percent. You think they would want you to do that? No, I don't. But like, if he asked.

Why do you want to go to the birthday parties of these 30-somethings? Why is that interesting to you? Because I want to have fun. I don't have enough fun in my life, you know? I feel like that you have a panic about the loss of fun. It's not that I have a panic. This isn't existential. This isn't like, oh, I've made the wrong choices.

No, I didn't say that. I didn't say that. This isn't like, you know, some like self-ynthologizing thing. It's like, I just want to go take a tequila shot and dance to Nelly, you know? It's like, let's just do it. I will bum a cigarette off someone at 11 p.m. Like, I just, I want to go have fun. Remember when I used to say that the CR heads was like 3,000 single guys, like crying, masturbating to Chris doing voices?

There definitely is, like, a dob mob, like 3,000 dog mob girlies, like at home quietly masturbating. Every time you're like, I just want to drink tequila and dance to Nellie. That's your contingent. Well. Maybe it's 300 million. It's good to know what you want. It's good to be able to articulate it. I found that in life.

I disagree. Okay. Let's try to finish this list. Jack, if you're listening, one battle at one, Hamnin at two, sinners at three. Okay. I'm already supreme at four. Yeah. I think Frankenstein had five and sentimental value at six.

Yes. Now, here's where it gets messy. I'm going to, I think Wicked for Good is off. I do as well. We could live to regret that and we might just put it back on in a month. Will we regret it or will we just be like we were reflecting the moment that we were living in? That's all I can do is be a mirror, you know? Absolutely. That's what many people are saying about you. Someone who has no strong feelings whatsoever.

You merely are a portal to other people's feelings. Some people are saying that there can only be one big box office movie on this list. I guess you could say sinners is a big box office movie, but Wicked for Good in Avatar Fire and Ash operate in a big blockbuster zone. I have floated that I think it's going to be, that I think the Academy is unlikely to do both of those for the same reasons. Do you think Avatar goes into that? spot? We haven't seen it yet. We see it in 10 days. That's going to be December 1st. It's going to be one of the most incredible days. We probably should. So on December 1st, I am so excited to announce that Sean Chris Ryan and I will be hosting, are we going live? No. So we're just, we're

recording a watch-along of Avatar the Way of Water. Right. Chris Ryan will or will not have seen the original Avatar. I don't know. I'm not going to arrange that. He can make his own decisions. So we'll be doing that for three hours or whatever. And then we will be driving, I hope you're going, I'm going to Burbank. Yeah, to Burbank, to see Avatar fire and Ash the same day, because that is when the screening is available. So that is going to be at least six hours. Nearly seven hours of Avatar. Now here's the thing. It's kind of smart. Well, we're going to be really up to speed on where the story left off. Right. Should we just then record the episode that week before

things get really dicey? Oh, that's a good point. Maybe we should. Okay. I'm very excited about Fire and Ash. I think Fire and Ash, we can put it eight. Okay. And wick it out. Yeah, vibes are very bad. Ariana Greta has COVID, apparently. Oh, that's too bad. Yeah. I mean, it just, it seems, it seems like it's been bummer. I do it's going to do well at the box office. Now,

here's a bigger question. Yeah. Are Bagonia and J. Kelly out right now? So you would toss them out before it was just an accident? Yes, and I'd like to hear your line of thought about that. Well, you know, I think I said to you, I did see it was just an accident, which I thought was exceptional, and also did not scream, like, pop intern. national feature crossover, best picture hit.

Kind of in the same way that you saw no other choice. And we're like, yeah, this is really great. No other choice is obviously, you know, the latest from like one of our great living filmmakers, not that Jafar Panahi is also not, but it was just an accident. It's getting like the palm door spot here, which in the last few years has become a transfer. but I am just sort of all of the international features seem a little bit

softer this year in terms of well everyone is now catching up to the festivals and being like well actually I don't know or I liked this or there's no anatomy of a fall as you keep saying there's no anatomy of a fall but I think so let's just talk about what the what that combination of films is so the secret agent

yeah it was just an accident and sentimental value were all canned films that are all going to be up for international feature. You know, you've got to remember that I'm still here, which was a much more conventional film than neither of those three. But that did slot in late in the period last year. The Brazil contingent is strong, whatever that means.

The Secret Agent is very unusual, more unusual than it was just an accident, which to me is probably the most conventional movie in Panahi's career. Panahi, who has been, you know, under house arrest over periods of time, who has been, like, kind of fucking with the form of what is a movie. He literally made a film called This Is Not a Film. he has been exploring what he can accomplish while making films in secret. This film is also made in secret

but has a much more traditional structure in terms of being a thriller. But it is also a very contemporary movie about living under a fascist regime that I think is going to resonate very deeply with a lot of voters around the world. I think it's like in a lock personally because Panahi has been in the United States

for a long time now. He was in the studio. He'll be on the show in December. Which is awesome. I'm not saying I didn't like it. He's a good advocate for his film, too. The only other thing is that that that film has been available for a while here in the U.S. I mean, it's a limited release.

Yeah, it hasn't made a lot of money. Yeah. And it just doesn't feel like as many people has seen it. I think it's really more about the absence of other films that can go in. Now, if you want to say we'll take it off, we can take it off. No, no, no, no, no. I just wanted to have the conversation. Let's do it.

Let's do the exercise. Let's take off. it was just an accident Jay Kelly and Begonia, what three would you put in its place? Because Avatar is taking the Wicked spot.

Right. Okay. Are there three other movies that could go in there that you see happening? I think that's very, very plausible. Okay.

That to me is going in the J. Kelly spot. Okay. So that's at number nine. Yep. And that is also trading a Netflix film for a Netflix film.

Yep. Now what else? Okay. So the other things you have listed here are possibilities. Wake up Dead Man and Knives Out Mystery.

I don't think that that will be a best picture. No other choice. I don't think so, even though I really liked it. Rental family, still haven't seen. I haven't seen it either. That's one of my big gaps. So we've got all the searchlights right here. We've got rental family. We've got Springsteen delivering me from nowhere, which absolutely not. And the Testament of Anley, which is my pet favorite. And is this thing on? It's also searchly. And it's this thing on, which I also still haven't seen.

Yeah. But Bradley Cooper went to the Eagles game instead of the Governor's Awards, so I don't know what he thinks is going to happen. So Searchlight almost always gets a movie in. Yeah. Would one of these four movies going in? Now, I've seen it as this thing on. Yes. I have a lot of strong feelings about it.

I'll save them for the episode. I don't think it's going in. Okay. Oh, okay. I mean, you and Bradley Cooper clearly don't. So. Well, he loves football. I mean, he does.

If my team was as good as the Jets, I would be going to the Jets games. You meant as good as the Eagles. Sorry, if my team was as good as the Eagles because the Jets are visible. that the Jets are 2 and 8, as of this recording. I don't know what's happening this weekend. For 2 and 8, they're 15-point underdogs to the Baltimore Ravens. We're recording this before that game. Yes.

I'm going to make a prediction here on Pod. We'll hear it on Monday. Okay. I think they will lose by fewer than 7 points. Okay. That's riveting stuff. I can't wait to find out. Testament of Enli is too weird.

I agree. No, I agree. It's cool. I hope it happens for Menniferate. Yeah. It's cool. I'm glad it got picked up. Springsteen has no chance.

Rental family is. really soft. Searchlight not having a movie is kind of fascinating. Yeah. I think that that is really a product of there being two big, fat Warner Brothers movies in here, and they're kind of taking a search light spot. Yeah. And if Avatar gets in, then you get a Disney movie.

Okay. So what's left? You have Song Sung Blue here, we haven't seen it. It will definitely get a Golden Globe. Yeah. But I think that's... This is my point about taking it was just an accident off. It's like there's not enough movies to go in. Okay, then put it in. Put it in. Would you say, Would you, you haven't seen the secret agent yet?

No. So it's hard to say. But Brazil is powerful. I've learned never to underestimate. Going into this episode, my thinking was that the secret agent is at 10 and it was just an accident, this is seven. I think that that is smart, based on what we know, using our knowledge. Now, that would be three international films, and that would be no searchlight, one

focus, one A-24, two neon, two warners, two Netflix. Seems reasonable. Yeah. Seems reasonable. That's kind of how it gets parceled out. By the time we record again, we will have seen, I will have seen rental family,

Song Song Blue. I think those are my last two movies that I haven't seen yet. Okay. And I got to see Ellen McKay, but that's not coming up in these conversations. Yeah. And an avatar, you have to see it. And Avatar Fire, yes.

But we've already explained when I'll be seeing that. Yes. So I just want to say something really quickly. Mm-hmm. This is our 13th episode. this month. Yeah. We've recorded them

in 21 days. We've also done a live event. I've also done six filmmaker interviews this month because everybody's been in town for the Governor's Awards. Yeah. We've also recorded four episodes

of 25 for 25. Okay. This is the most intense month we've ever had on the show. Yeah. I think we're a little overexposed. Okay.

And by that, I mean, I'm on camera way too much right now. Yeah, okay. But we did it. We're here. We did it. We're about to have a little break here.

It's well earned. How do you feel about this month? I mean, I'm really psyched to have a few, have a week off to reset my brain. You know what that means for me? It's and or time. Oh, wow. Okay.

Pretty fired up. I think what it means for me is Zootopia and Zootopia, too. Because I heard from, I heard from Cousin Max, the cousin who went to see Lady Bird when he was 10. Yeah. And who, there's a Thanksgiving tradition. Did you like the episode? Yeah, he did. And he said he was going to revisit it and see whether his, he's, he was, he was, he said, he was,

his opinion, whether the movie holds up to his 10-year-old standards, which was very sweet. I also reminded Max that we took him to see Creed 2, and as the lights went down, he said, so what happens in Creed 1? I remember this. Yeah, Max is a legend. But there's a tradition of taking the younger kids to see a movie at Thanksgiving. And now that Max is a grown-up and in college, Knox is the younger kid. So I floated Zootopia and Zootopia, too, because Knox hasn't seen Zootopia, obviously, nor have I.

Zootopia is pretty funny. Is that the one that is an allegory for the Reagan and? administration introducing crack into remember the Instagram message that I got yes I don't think that that's the intention of the filmmakers sure okay but I think that that is a reading that it can withstand okay jack says yes correct thank you jack um shout out to that that person who DM'd me I'll also be seeing Zootopia too this weekend okay um maybe after I see it I'll add it to the list of best picture contenders we'll see anything else you want to say about all this let's just what don't we just read the 10 as it stands now I'm not sure if I feel good about this list

We're going to do it. Yeah. Number 10 is The Secret Agent. Number nine is train dreams. Number eight is Avatar Fire and Ash. Number seven is, it was just an accident. Number six is sentimental value. Number five is Frankenstein.

Number four is Marty Supreme. Number three is sinners. Two Hamnet. One, one battle after another. I'm so excited to not talk for a while. Yeah. So I'm Mike. Same.

Let's go to my conversation now with Joachim Trrier. Joachim Trir here on the show. Wonderful film. heard you spoke in 2022 about the process of writing with your co-writer, Eskilvovok, and you said you, you know, you guys get together and you talk about a lot of ideas and you talk about what's going on in your life at the time. And the worst person in the world came out of that. And I was, I was wondering what was going on in your life when you guys got together to start talking about sentimental value. Yeah, no, thanks. That's interesting.

What was going on? First of all, we've made worst person in the world. So, as always, you try to accept that there's a kind of an anxiety for failure in the room of creating something from scratch like we do every time. And since the worst person had had a good ride and people had seen it, you know, it was a film that I felt met people on the right premise. People talked back to me about it in a way where I thought, hey, you know, I think we talked about something here. That was okay. Then, of course, we thought, what are people going to expect from us? And we try to get rid of those notions because it's not very creatively stimulating to work from that place of, you know, what did they expect? So what had happened was that I'd had two kids and Escal

has had children for a while. Our parents are still alive and almost like in the old friendship that we have, we start talking about stuff from life. And then we have all these other ideas of cooler film do we want to make. But then actually, how can you make it interesting and cool and specific to talk about family dynamics and stuff like that. So I think that's kind of what happened. So there is something related to that, too, which is that it felt like, you know, you've been making films for a long time, but it felt like the worst person in the world got into the culture more, you know, Academy Award nominations, probably more exposure to Hollywood than some of your films have gotten in the past. How much did that influence what you were writing?

Because that's a significant strain, too, of Gustav's story and Elle's character. Did that particular experience on the last film inform that strain of the movie? Honestly, I don't think so. I think the first film we did, Reprise, was bought by Merrimaps and came out, and that's almost 20 years ago, man. So after that, I had the whole ride of meeting studios and reading scripts and trying to figure out as a young filmmaker who I was. And realizing then that even though I grew up,

up adoring Hollywood movies and still do. It wasn't the place where I would feel the most free to do my thing. So I went back to Norway and made Oslo August 31st. And, you know, so I've had a bit of that. And then since then, I have friends and colleagues and I do come out to LA. I'm in LA now when we're talking. And I do feel that there's a beautiful dialectic between American and European cinema that's always been going back and forth and all that. So there's not skepticism, But it's more like this, how can I make a love letter to movies through making sentimental value but still have fun and create some humor around the fact that on one level, an American actor that Elle plays in this one is kind of an outsider. And then she comes to Norway, which I think is more unusual than maybe making a story about a director going to Hollywood. It's happened before, though, right?

Yeah, there's a humor in that, you know, we thought. Yeah, I mean, we've had, you know, Elliot Gould worked with Bergman. like it did happen a couple of times but it's not that common, right? Yeah, yeah, it's a good film. I want to talk about Gustav and Estelle's character and I'm curious about your specific relationship to this character.

Obviously, he's a flawed person. He's a filmmaker. He's got two kids. How much of you is in him? The irony is when we wrote the film, I only had one. And then I make, this is a true story. I make a story about

a difficult father and a director, who I imagined while writing it most of the time was not me at all. Since he's much older generations, difficult. I was thinking much more about the family dynamics of the story and the characters. And then just as we finished the script, I realized we're having another child, and that turns out to be a girl too. So now I have two daughters who are exactly three years apart,

like the sisters in the film. So 20 years from my poor daughters, everyone's going to think that this is an apology to them or something. But that was not the intention. It's on the record now. It's not the intention. So, no, so to go back to the film, I feel it was really fun to make a film about a filmmaker and be allowed to make pieces of his movies.

Like, we see a piece of his masterpiece from the 90s called Anna. And, you know, it's the hardest thing in the world. You're, oh, we're making a film about a great painter. We have to have some great paintings. You know, and in this case, we have to have some okay pieces of film to believe he was a good director. So I was really suddenly in this position of, oh, la la, how do I make like these crazy oners? There's a scene in the film, like this one shot with no cuts on a moving train and people are running outside the train.

Inside the train, there's a child who needs to cry on cue. And I really had to step up here and be a better director of Big Gustav Forge. So however much he's a flawed character, I really, really did my best to make him an okay director. No, you do really communicate that he had, at least he had a greatness to him at a certain time. And what you do put in that film that he directed does kind of feel like a film of that era, too. I mean, were you thinking, like, were there any movies that you were attempting to recapture that? We were trying not to be so specific that it would be a parody or a hit job on some director or something. It's more type of European tour that would do oners throughout.

each scene and maybe have a poetic relation to the wind and the trees, a bit Eastern European influence, but not something completely specific. We wanted Gustafburg to be his own guy. Like, I'm not going to be able to get you to name names then, I guess. No, but I'll give an example. Like, for example, you know, it's obviously, he's not Bergman, because Emma Bergman comes from theater, and Gustav Berg does not. He's about tactility, and he doesn't like the theater. He even says to his daughter the kind of difficult dad he is, and she's a stage actress, so that's a very patronizing moment.

But, and he's not Yon Truel either, the great Swedish director that I adore, but Yon Truel was more about tactility and nature and humans almost in a Tarynx Maliki way being perceived as creatures of the world, you know?

So maybe it's more over in that corner. I don't know, yeah. So like you, I have a four-year-old daughter. And it's a, it's an interesting, thing, ride. It is like the most beautiful, wonderful thing, and it is a very emotionally dynamic. And obviously, your daughter wasn't four at the time when you were making this film. But I'm curious about specifically what that unlocked or allowed you to be able to communicate since you've got Inga and Renata's characters as the center, the focal point of this story.

Yeah. Please forgive me for maybe this is a little bit of an abstract entry point into something you're asking about but I think I want to talk about when you look at people developing kids what we all come from there is a sense that before the spoken language takes prominence all these other modes of communications are at play I'm sure you experienced that with your child as well that dancing singing hitting things rhythmically drawing all that stuff just happens It's a part of expression. It's a part of getting into contact with the people around you. It's almost, and it sounds a bit cheesy, but it's almost like we were all artists at some point before social conventions came and took us.

I know exactly what you mean. You know what I mean, right? And also you sing to them to make them calm and sleep. And suddenly all these creative things come into play that has nothing to do with the business or with the function of art or any of that. It's just like being human is doing stuff like that, right? So I thought in this film where Escal and I are talking about a creative family, not all of them, the younger sisters certainly stepped away from wanting to have anything to do with theater or movies or anything. And we can talk about that later.

But for some of these characters, art making movies and theater is really important. And we were ashamed about writing that, Escal and I. We were like, oh, no, are we doing that again? But we realized that it gave us a key to talk about identity in a family and communication and lack of communication in the family because these artistic expressions, Gustav's film that he wants to do with his daughter or films from the past gave us an insight into the characters. And I always thought at the end of the day that this is also a film about two women who have a very difficult relation to their father somehow coming to touch.

terms with the fact that inside that father is a wounded child. I'm sorry, you know, to say it straight, he is a man who comes from his own story and his own difficulties. And I think that's the only way to try to reach some sense of reconciliation is to see the honesty about your parents' struggles. And that's a really hard place to go for most people. So when I look at the fact that Gustav as a child had a language which he certainly put into art in a beautiful way, but has no capacity to be socially available to his daughters in the social language. He's so clumsy. He says the wrong thing. He doesn't know how to be present with them. So I thought that dichotomy in life of this artist who actually seems to make really beautiful films but has no ability to be a great dad,

that interested me. So that's that wounded child that's still a play in his art somehow or something. That area interested me. There's something really meta-textual about Stellen portraying this character too, because of course he has children who are in the business, who are performers, who are artists. And so we as viewers, if we know about him, we bring that to the table. It did make me wonder, though, like how you feel about the idea of your family getting into the arts, your kids.

You told me before we started recording, your father was a sound designer. Like, I presume there's a history of working in the arts in your family. Like, how does that make you feel? No, at times it's almost been a bit embarrassing. I mean, one grandfather was a painter, the other was a filmmaker, and I'm so inbred. It's ridiculous. It's so ironic, right? Like, as a creative person, it's all about autonomy and individuality,

and here I am, just being served up from these obvious family relations I come from. But here we are. That's what I do. I wasn't great at school. I filmed since I was a kid. I skateboarded. I filmed stuff with my friends all the way through my, from before I could ride even. You know, I had Super 8 and video cameras available that I could,

was a privilege enough to be allowed to use. And so I'm just super grateful that I'm allowed to do this stuff. I love making movies. So it wasn't like a great plan or a choice. I kind of slid into it and here we are, you know. But I also felt very comfortable in film sets as his child. The grownups didn't seem so scary and boring. they were playing and I remember very well being on set with my dad and seeing, you know, grown men lying in the mud trying to hold some, you know, some light up as the wind was blowing while the take was rolling. And they were like down in the mud grabbing metal to try to keep it from not falling over during the shot. And kind of no one could make it sounds. It was so silent, but it was kind of crazy and fun. And I was like, wow, these people really care about getting this shot done. How fun is that, you know? So I'm sure.

I was very inspired by the process. This question is a little bit of an abstraction as well, but, you know, hearing you say you were into skateboarding as a kid, thinking about Anders's character from the worst person in the world, thinking about your early films, you feel to me like a lot of people that I'm friends with that had basically a kind of like a little slightly harder-edge punk rock youth. And it's getting older and becoming increasingly empathetic, open-hearted. and trying to find a way to kind of like reconcile the ethic of the past with the present day. Like, does that feel accurate to you when I say that? Yeah.

If you mean by ethics, the idea that you had the virtue wanting to be hardcore and autonomous and the grownups were idiots and the structure didn't give you the answer. Certainly. I still feel like that a lot of the time. And I think the world is unfortunately presenting itself to us in that way a lot. But yes, I have come to a more emotionally open and tender place. I'm older. You know, I really used to laugh at kind of hippie stuff and was more that punk guy that

you describe. I completely identified with what you're saying. And now I realize I'm not laughing at all about John Lennon. Not that I ever did. I always loved the Beatles, by the way. But you know, like I. But you would be flip about something like that. No, I don't.

I actually see that there's kind of a strength. I would even say a masculine strength to being emotionally available and that there's power in trying to see the other and listen to it and stand in opposition to this agreement with an openness because it's harder than to be so damn sure about everything and have that kind of sensitivity to things. I think I value more and more. And I think also in art that it's kind of easy to get cynical sometimes.

And I'm certainly, I don't want to be cynical. And I don't, by the way, think that punk was necessarily cynical. Like some of it was a bit like, and we don't care. But at the core of it was an emphasis on do it yourself, a collective experience, a collaboration, wanting to create something that was beautiful and fun. And, you know, so again, you know, punk isn't so simple either. It's interesting to me that the last two films, you know, you've not just worked with Renata, but they've been stories told through the eyes of women, and specifically, in this case,

two sisters. That's not exactly an experience that you or us call have literal access to. So how do you build that relationship? And then how do the two actors become credible as sisters in the film? Yeah. No, thank you. That's an interesting question. So first part of that, I often get asked the thing about how writing for women and stuff,

but that presupposes, I guess, that we ride ourselves older. the time which we don't we create characters outside of yourself exactly for that reason that it's fun to create characters and yes you have to have a deep understanding of them and in that process like an actor you will you will maybe use for sure something of yourself but um i i've just found it really wonderful to work with these specific actors and in this case like renata reinswe is a dear friend and i feel i can express myself for her just as i have also with male actors like Anderson Lee, you know? And again, a part of creating and making movies

is to try to be a good observer, listen, be sensitive to what you see in the world. And I think so through that, I hope we create these characters, regardless of gender or who they are, that they are truthfully put into the story. So how do you create then with the actor, this relationship you're asking about, sisters, I had Renata from day one because we wrote it for her.

She was one of the motivations to do the film. And how do we then find her sister? And it was a long casting process. And we then encountered Ingaipstater Lilios. And you'll see in the film that she has an earnest groundedness, which is a wonderful different energy than Renata's frenetic, charismatic actor of an older sister with all her neuroses and you know it's it's this kind of grounded more held and and contemplative character of the younger sister so the chemistry

between them were awesome when we did like tests with both of them early on um no i really enjoyed that it was wonderful and they they connected it turned out they'd been in a theater play 10 years ago and they'd really like each other so so that was also something to build on their their chemistry is a part of what makes the film so exceptional there's two or three scenes between them that are just kind of that you feel like you're levitating a bit because it feels very knowable it feels very familiar even though we've just met them um i know you're being asked about the house nonstop but i'm gonna i'm gonna ask you about the house um i know it was close to where you live in where you live is it easy to just say i want this house for my movie i mean how does that how does that work It's not. And I'm a fool as always. So I looked at a hundred houses and then the house I wanted was right up the street. But, you know, this is the process. You look and you fumble and then you find. And we found this great, great house. It was, thank God, the people that live in the house and the real house, it's a singer and writer of a great band that I grew up admiring in the 80s

called De Lilos, a great kind of post-punk, new wavy, Norwegian rock band that I really loved. And he understood, he's seen my films. And I'm grateful for that. And he really said, hey, listen, dude, I really want to support you. I love the stuff. He's also someone who's actually made a lot of songs about Oslo. So I think there's a kinship between us about, like, representing this silly little city in northern Europe that most people don't care about.

So there's kind of a sweet connection. and he said, yeah, so hey, what if we make a deal that me and my wife and, you know, we can go to Italy for a few months and you guys shoot in the house and you pay for the holiday or something? And I was like, yeah, great. So we made us kind of a deal with him. And but the interesting thing was we also did a replica of the whole house in a studio because we're shooting the story of the house through the 20th century basically. And we had to like do 1918, 1930s, 1930s, 90s, 60s, so forth. And we had to redress. And we had to redress. and go in and out of the real house

and the dress that's the past build in the studio. So at some point, we'd done a replication of his family home and his ancestors from pictures that we gathered in the 30s. And I took him and his whole family and these kids and they're not grown up and everything. We invited him and his brother as well to the studio and they walked into a set. And outside the set was VP screens,

digital screens, lead screens, where we had created complete photrealistic replications also in the 30s exactly research what the buildings around that house had looked like and the cars on the streets

moving around and we put them in that time machine and his brother teared up and he's like my God this is incredible we're in the time machine we are in our house

reconstructed from the 30s with this outside looking at the window the trees are measured to be smaller and over there there were in the evidence

trees and that house wasn't built until 10 years later and you know and it was such a joy and his brother kind of teared up it's like like what you guys do in movies is crazy like you know and i felt so proud to be a filmmaker and this is the big you know kick of making movies sometimes is that you just construct the past and reality and you grab it and these shots and create stories out of it but even like furthermore that's what the movie is about too the movie is about this attempt to kind of recreate this memory, this vision of experience within the space in which it happened. So you gave

them that gift while making a movie that is about that feeling. That's true. That's quite fascinating. It's weird, huh? Again, like my kids, they're suddenly having another daughter. Life imitates hard. Yeah. A couple more for you. The funniest joke in the movie by far is the gifts that Gustav gives his

grandson. I laughed so hard. Can you just talk about that where how you and Esco came up with that? kind of talking about punk. I mean, he's a counterculture guy and he doesn't like bourgeois, middle-class life. And he's coming to his nine-year-old grandson's birthday party. He brings a lot of wine. He's probably very nervous. He knows that he hasn't been a great dad. And he's trying to connect now. And then his nine-year-old grandson has a birthday. He's supposed to bring some DVDs that he gives him, probably because he wants to connect. And the DVDs he gives is the piano

teacher by Mikhail Hanakeh and irreversible by Gaspar Noe to the rest of the family's big shock. And, you know, I sympathize with him. He's trying his best, but it's obviously not good films for children. He even says to his grandson, looking at the piano teacher that this film teaches you everything you need to know about women and their relationship to their mothers. And the mother just, his daughter responds, well, we actually

don't have a DVD player. Thank God, you know. So, yeah, that's a bit of a community. The fun for me was we were suddenly, you know, we were invited to screen at Cannes, in the main competition in that big theater that we all adore, and I'm sitting there, and that scene arrives on screen, and everyone laughs,

and I realized that both irreversible and the piano teacher screened in that exact room in competition. So it was, again, complete meta. So I want to ask you about the soundtrack. I know that you got asked about the soundtrack a lot on the last film,

And that you have this... I like talking about soundtracks. I love music. Well, the decisions in this film are really interesting. Because you hear a lot of filmmakers, especially in the 90s in America, we're using this kind of jukebox style, where you'd get a lot of different kinds of genres,

a lot of stuff that came from the filmmakers' youth, getting, you know, reinterpreted in this new art form. Yours is even more wide-ranging, I find. Like, it's not just a series of pop songs. It's classical. It's gospel. It's these dirges. It's a real smorgas board.

of music. So how do you determine what, is it just what it feels, what feels right, is it does it have to be thematically coherent with what you're trying to say in the film? How do you make the choices to pick songs? It's very similar to when you ask me why I made this film in my life right now. So it's a mixture of many things. These songs, many of them, I listen to a lot at the moment or recently. Some of them are from the past. Some of them I had a friend show me and I suddenly realized it would fit a scene. I mean, we write in the writing room Eskilofok and I with a lot of music. Like Terry Callier is someone, an artist I've listened to a lot. Terry Callier came out of the Chicago soul scene, folk soul scene in the early 70s. His producer Charles

Stepney, who passed away way too early also. was a part of road reconnection and produced me in Eripperton. And, you know, there's this kind of that whole area of music I've loved for my whole life almost, but now recently really focused on Callier. And I was then trying to analyze why I opened the film with that song. And I realized that it had some of the artistic, formal virtues that I was trying to embrace, which is that it's quite light and beautifully orchestrated and has a sense of levity. but at the core of it, there's a human voice that's very soulful and melancholic.

And I thought, hey, man, that's the vibe I'm after. And then he has kind of a mirroring artist from the UK, Labys Sifre, who also made a lot of beautiful, and still, he's still around and makes great music and made some stuff in the same of these that I felt had the same vibe. And that's the end of the film. So they bookend the film, you know, so you try to find a structure that you can also justify aesthetically a bit, but at the end of the day, it's taste and, and what you enjoy it.

What does the title of the film mean to you? Yeah, that brings us back to music, I think. I think sentimental value, the word and what it looks like and sounds like, could have been an old standard, could have been a cold porter tune or a jazz standard or something. It has that kind of sweet, sweet melancholic feel to it. But it's also a word I find fascinating. I remember as a child, we have a similar, a word of Xun Svati, which is a Norwegian word for sentimental value in Norwegian. And I remember as a child learning that word and thinking, wow, that describes

something very human, this idea that you have a subjective relationship to something that's only yours. So it's about identity. And since we're talking about a family who we're kind of negotiating, who are we? And we feel so different. I thought it was interesting to bring in that subjectivity into play. It's not only about that coffee cup that you remember your grandmother having and now you have it and it reminds you or her. I think it goes beyond that. So you mentioned earlier that after Reprise, you kind of did the, I assume the water bottle tour,

movie got bought by Miramax, you got to get exposed to Hollywood. Is there any world where you would make a Hollywood movie? You seem to have this wonderful setup in Norway, and I know that the country is much more accommodating of artists than it can be in the Hollywood capitalist system. But could you see yourself making a Hollywood movie at any point? I always read carefully here because I don't want to offend the fact that the Hollywood locomotive pulls cinema and people through cinematic history.

It's a big important locomotive that also creates, I mean, look at this year, look at the Warner Brothers this year and who they support the great filmmakers. Some of them are people I know. I mean, Ryan Coobler, I met at Sundance Lab when I was, you know, an advisor there. and I love his work. And Paul Thomas Anderson's made, again, a masterpiece. I mean, one battle after another is just an extraordinary piece of cinema. So, you know, I don't want to say that Hollywood doesn't make great stuff. But on the other hand, I have an ability and I'm being allowed to make films still in Europe,

where I have creative control, and I can do it at home, and I can tell the stories I want. And yeah, it's a system that works. on 35 millimeter. I can still work with my friends and cast who I want and and have final cut with still like 60 days, 64 days of shooting, which is ridiculous amount on a budget, which is not crazy. So that's a pretty sweet deal. So yeah, never say never. But at the moment, I feel very free in the way that I'm allowed to make films. What's your favorite part of the filmmaking process at this point? The most intense, unique thing is, is to be allowed to be with actors on the camera on set

and completely identify with the moment. Like when I was a skater, if not thinking, just being there and really losing yourself in the moment with what you're creating. But I love writing with Eskil and finding stuff and the rush of knowing that, oh my God, we have a film coming or a new idea or a scene. Oh, I look forward to filming that.

Such a rush. And then, of course, editing is such a torment at the beginning. It's so hard to get any structure in place, but that towards the end, when you start showing it to people, and it starts being a movie and mixing sound and color and refining it, finally coming towards the end is such a beautiful part of it. And I'm present at all these stages. I'm in the writing room 90% of the time. It still has some writing days without me towards the end because he's a better writer and he refines and creates it that way, you know. But in editing, I'm there almost every day. So, like, I really love the whole process. But I do slow work.

I mean, I make a film every third or fourth year, you know, and that's okay with me. I used to be ashamed that I didn't, I wasn't sitting in a Lumet and Woody Allen and could churn something out every year. You know, I admire those people that can, but I'm okay about my pace now, I think. It's producing great work. You can we end every episode of this show by asking filmmakers, what's the last great thing they have seen? I know you're, I know you're traveling the world and showing the film and you're busy,

but I assume you're watching some stuff. Yeah, I got to go back to one battle after another. I had the great fortune of becoming friends with Paul Thomas Anderson. And I feel, speaking of music, I grew up really, really inspired by Martin Scorsese. And I know that Paul, in its own unique way, is also someone that plays around with music and movements. And you feel that Paul's camera is connected to a soul, to someone. There's a gaze in a movement and a temperament where the Misesun is completely connected to a sense of a voice, someone expressing something, you know, and I love that in movies. You feel it sometimes that a film can feel remote or it doesn't, you don't know what the vibe or who's making it or, and it's not, it's a group endeavor, of course, but you feel with the through line in all of Paul Thomas Anderson's movies is something of a very personal nature yet you don't know what it is.

It's still mystical and interesting. And I don't know, I admire him a lot. I think he's one of perhaps, you know, the master, I think, of our generation of filmmakers. And I'm so relieved and happy to see him continue, you know, and make films on this scale now. It's incredible. I echo those sentiments and congratulations on your own film, which I think is absolutely wonderful. Thanks for taking some time to talk. Thank you so much.

Thank you to Joachim Trier. Thanks to our producer, Jack Sanders, for his work on this episode. Later this week, our number three movie in 25 for 25. Hardly anybody's guessed it. Yeah. Nobody sees it coming. I mean, we're recording this in advance, so there's five days for everyone to spoil it. I'm going to spoil it right now.

It's the 2016 film The Choice, and I'm so pumped to finally be able to see this movie for the first time. I'll see you then. You know,