The Big Picture - Best Picture Power Rankings and the Winners and Losers of Movies in 2024. Plus: ‘Superman’ Is Here.

Episode Date: December 20, 2024

Sean starts the episode with a monologue about the up-and-down state of the movie release calendar after a handful of extremely disappointing movies like ‘Kraven the Hunter,’ ‘Mufasa: The Lion King,’ and ‘Lord of the Rings: The War of Rohirrim’ hit theaters recently, before they give way to stronger films like ‘The Brutalist,’ ‘Nosferatu,’ ‘A Complete Unknown,’ ‘Babygirl,’ and more (1:00). Then, he’s joined by Joanna Robinson to talk about the winners and losers, broadly, of the year in movies (6:00). They then share their latest Best Picture power rankings (1:08:00). Finally, Sean is joined by ‘Nickel Boys’ director RaMell Ross to discuss the revolutionary style and vision of the film, adapting Colson Whitehead’s novel, his path to becoming an artist, and more (1:25:00). Host: Sean Fennessey Guests: Joanna Robinson and RaMell Ross Senior Producer: Bobby Wagner Video Producer: Jack Sanders Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

If you're a fan of the inner workings of Hollywood, then check out my podcast, The Town, on the Ringer Podcast Network. My name's Matt Bellany. I'm founding partner at Puck and the writer of the What I'm Hearing newsletter. And with my show, The Town, I bring you the inside conversation about money and power in Hollywood. Every week, we've got three short episodes featuring real Hollywood insiders to tell you what people in town are actually talking about. We'll cover everything from why your favorite show was canceled overnight, which streamer is on the brink of collapse, and which executive is on the hot seat. Disney, Netflix, who's up, down,

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I'm Sean Fennessey, and this is The Big Picture, a conversation show about the waning days of the movie year. Later in this episode, I have a conversation with Rommel Ross. His new film is Nickel Boys. Listeners of the show know that the movie came in at number two on my best movies of the year list. It's a staggering and bold work of art. Simply put,

this was my favorite director interview of the year. Rommel is easygoing and funny, but tremendously insightful and sincere. See this movie, listen to this conversation.

Nickel Boys is expanding over the holidays and next week we have a few more major releases including Nosferatu, The Brutalist, The Complete Unknown,

and Baby Girl Among Them making their way into theaters. The very end of this sometimes dicey movie year is ending on kind of a strange note. It's high, but it's awkward. The last couple weeks have been rocky. My original plan on today's episode was to get into Kraven the Hunter, Mufasa the Lion King, and maybe even Lord of the Rings The War of the Rohirrim, the new animated Tolkien movie. And while I pride myself on spending time on major releases from the studios, especially when legitimate filmmakers whose work I have loved in the past, like J.C. Shandor or Barry Jenkins are involved, I'm not going to devote too much time to these movies today. I didn't really connect with these movies, and in the case of Kraven, I couldn't even really feel Shandor's point of view at all in the movie. Mufasa is more of an assignment for Jenkins, and while I was fascinated watching him integrate his deep focus close-ups and panoramic visual style applied to

digitally created lions, the movie is another in a long line of genuinely mystifying live-action Disney movies. I've seen almost all of them now, given my daughter's growing interest, and as a huge fan of classic Disney animation, it's diminishing returns on almost every one. I've seen 16 of the 21, and really none of them are good at all? As for Craven, well, there's diminishing returns on almost everyone. I've seen 16 of the 21, and really, none of them are good at all? As for Kraven, well, there's a hilarious episode of the Ringiverse with both the House of R and Midnight Boy's crew weighing in on the movie, and the end of Sony's extended Spider-Man universe, so tap into that if you want to hear a little bit more about it. Instead of exploring these IP extensions, let's talk about the winners and losers of the year

in movies. Has 2024 been a good movie year? We've been debating it a lot in the past couple of months on the show. Every year has good films. You already know what my favorites are if you've been listening. A couple even transcend the typically entertaining or distracting variety. This hasn't been my favorite year, but there's been some special work. But in addition to whether or not this has been a good movie year, has it been a good year for movies is the big question I want to talk about right now. The case for yes. 2025 is nearly here and we survived, maybe even thrived considering the circumstance. In the aftermath of the dual strikes, the box office has dipped just 10% year over year and could get closer to 5% or even 3% when it's all said and done this holiday season. Given the panic that set in back in May after Furiosa and the Fall Guy underperformed,

and the unusual number of empty opening weekends at the movies this year, things could have gotten really bad. But then they didn't. Long Legs Surprised, Wicked Sword, Inside Out 2 exploded, Civil War made money, The Beekeeper made money, movies are back! They're back! Well, maybe they're not back where they are, I'm not sure. The beekeeper made money. Movies are back. They're back. Well, maybe they're not back or they are. I'm not sure. The case for no is this. The movies that performed well up and down the box office

are a little dispiriting for cinephiles. Of the top 20 highest grossing US movies of 2024, only three are non-sequels or prequels. Those are It Ends With Us, The Wild Robot, and If. Compare that to seven of those originals in 2023, including the Barbenheimer Behemoth. This year, seven of the highest grosses are at least the fourth installment in a franchise.

And so while the box office performance has been surprisingly sturdy, there's something insidious in the stew. Movie franchises seem to be tanking on TV, but they're hanging in there at the movies at the expense of other kinds of movies, leaving streamers to pick up the slack with stuff like Rebel Ridge, Carry On, and It's What's Inside on Netflix, rock-solid genre movies that we like to celebrate here, but they're not playing in theaters.

So yeah, as always, I'm back. Movies are back, but at any minute, it could be so over. We'll see what happens. That does take us to 2025, though, and arguably the most important movie of that year, which is Superman. We just saw the first trailer for Superman, and I will say I am excited. I am a James Gunn fan, as listeners of the show know, and I like what I saw from the trailer. I liked the color grading.

I liked how bright and beautiful and visibly and smartly lit the movie seems to be. Obviously, Gunn has a very spongy and visceral quality to his filmmaking. It's not a mistake that the first image you see of Superman in this teaser trailer is a bloodied Superman. James Gunn likes blood and guts.

This is something that is featured in all of his movies. So while there is a kind of classic feeling and the interpolation of the John Williams theme from the Richard Donner Superman film, I get the feeling like this is going to be a very Gunn-type project, aside from those obvious nods to the past. Also, David Cornswet looks great.

He is not hyper-muscle-bound like Henry Cavill was in the Zack Snyder films. Rachel Brosnahan looks like a perfect Lois Lane. I'm excited. I choose to believe. I've believed in Gunn in the past, and it has paid off for me. In the meantime, let's go back to believe. I've believed in Gun in the past and it has paid off for me. In the meantime, let's go back to 2024. Let's bring in Joanna Robinson. She's going to

help me talk about the winners and losers of the movie year and also talk about some best picture contenders and how they stack up as we head towards 2025. Okay, Joanna Robinson is here Joe thank you for being here um we have a lot to get sorry I'm sorry I missed your monologue um but I'm glad to be here for the rest don't mock my monologue all right I need you to support me I know I support you I'm so supportive of you and your art my art huh yeah yeah as I Laszlo T taught my way through movie podcasting one brutal episode at a time you're a misunderstood genius in your time and eventually we will celebrate you uh i know that's not true uh i wanted to ask you very quickly i'm sure you're making all manner of content about it but i just shared a couple of thoughts about the superman trailer um as we look

forward before looking back at 2024. What was your vibe? Well, first let me ask you, are you all in on this? I am. I am. I think if I didn't know anything about James Gunn's work, I would have some concerns. That's so interesting. I feel the opposite. Oh, interesting. Why? Well, here's what I'll say.

It was a great trailer, like a great vibes trailer. As you know, given many conversations we've had over the past few weeks, I'm a big Nick Holtz fan. So seeing Nick Holtz as Lex Luthor was wonderful. I thought he was like kind of stole the trailer for me. some questions, comments, and concerns about James Gunn as the right match for Superman, uh, tonally. So I am reserving, I I'm, I'm more skeptical than my fellow ringer verse, uh, family and they're all in and they're very excited. And there was a thing with the dog and that really thrilled them. And they love that. I will say, and I, and I, and I said this to, to Mal, uh, we talked about it briefly on House of R and And I said, the shot of Superman in the snow, beaten and bloody and sort of like unable to catch his breath, I thought was very effective in a way that the sort of brooding, gritty Zack Snyder Superman stuff never was effective for me. This was like a wounded hero, but it didn't feel like it was trying to be grimdark at the same time and then um the bit with the kid and the flag the superman flag with the superman logo and i thought that was really really good as well um that's where i am yeah i think deep down james gunn is

kind of a sap so i i think that this is going to work out fine personally, but... Maybe. He's just the, you know, his whole brand is snark. Yeah, but it's also, if we work together, we can be a family. And if we are decent to each other, we can survive the struggle. Like, the Guardians movies are all about that. Even the Suicide Squad movie is kind of about that. So I agree with you on the bloodied part.

I mean, that's the other thing is that he's just such a visceral filmmaker and he has roots in exploitation and horror. And so a bloodied Superman is an important issue. Yeah, it's an important

vision for that character. The stuff with hot girl, Nathan Fillion in a wig. I have some questions about all of that. Rachel Brosnahan in a vest. I have no questions. No notes.

Looks great. It was an inspired casting and she looks like, I have no questions. No notes. Looks great. It was an inspired casting and she looks like a perfect Lois Lane. She's perfect. Okay. Well, thank you for sharing a few morsels there.

I'm sure you're getting into it even deeper in other spaces. I'm guessing you didn't expect that I would be the more cynical between the two of us

about a Superman trailer, but, you know. Yeah, I think where you're coming from is reasonable and it's possible that that's the case. I i want to believe you know i think i want to believe in a little bit more of a a standalone optimistic superhero story that feels outside of where we've been for the last 10 years yeah and i think there's a lot about uh gunn's plans at uh like

the plan that he laid out for the films that he want to make wants to make and the the way they are not all necessarily like burdensomely leading towards a team up is very exciting to me i was just as he was sort of assigning films i was like oh you gave yourself superman i would give i would have given you a different one and uh that's the question i have but um i'm i'm happy to have proven wrong in 2025. I'm often wrong. So we shall see. Not about anything I'm going to predict today.

Everything I predict today is going to be bang on correct. We'll see about that. One last thing, you know, I was never a DC guy growing up. I was always more of a Marvel kid. But there were a handful of characters that I found interesting. In particular, I always thought Clayface was really cool especially in Batman the animated series

so the idea of like James Gunn doing a Clayface movie written by Mike Flanagan and a Sergeant Rock movie directed by Luca Guadagnino written by Justin Kuritskis I'm like that's what I want

superhero executives to be doing like that's super cool those movies might not work but at least try that and try to try to expand beyond what we've understood for the last 20 years. I think their Batman pitch is really good. Um, the, the prospect of a swamp thing property is really exciting to me. Yeah. There's like a lot that's coming out of there that is very exciting.

This was like my one question mark, but you know, uh, everyone else seems really high on it and really excited. So I'm probably wrong about it. Okay. Well, we can't be wrong about the winners and losers of the year in movies. So let's, let's go through some, I kind of threw this at you last minute, but it feels appropriate because it felt like such a tense movie year coming out of the strikes. There was a lot of concern, a lot of, you know, trolling about the box office, a lot of, I would say a lot of trade reporters, I think in an attempt to bring some drama to this entertainment year, suggested that the sky was falling. When I did my little riff in May, my intention of that was actually not to not be doing sky is falling. My intention was to say,

like, just let's put our head down and keep going to the movies and this is going to work out. Do you think that it did work out? Like, are you set aside whether or not the movies were good or not in general the state of the business you think it's healthy in bad shape somewhere in between before we started recording we were talking about like just turn your brain off go to the movies have a great time check out the brutalist and emilia perez don't think about the themes or the ideas conclave what a sick movie um i think this was actually like looking at what feels like it rose above in terms of stickiness and cultural conversation. This is a pretty tough year, I think, at the end of the day. Like there's some things at the top that I'm excited are there.

Like Dune 2, I think, is a really worthy, exciting film that captivated people and made a lot of money. Definitely there were some huge box office hits that existed this year. You can't say that nobody went to the cinema. They certainly went, but they went for stuff like Deadpool and Wolverine, which I don't think either of us would say is like a cinematic classic. So looking at the offerings at the end of this year, I think it was like a pretty tough year. You said to not talk about the quality of the movies, but I think quality wise, I think it was a tough year, but I don't think we can say let's close. Let's, you know, board up all the movie theaters. It's over. We did it. You know, I think that's still alive and well. And I

think as we rebound from the long ripple of COVID and the writer's strike and all of that, I think 2025, we were, you know, Chris and I were having a similar conversation about television this year. I just really think we're in a lag year because of a lot of circumstances. And I think what's on the slate for 2025 is quite exciting. Yeah, I tend to agree. I think there are a handful of movies that I was genuinely awestruck by, but not very many. And the franchise stuff seemed very weak. Obviously, a lot of the big franchises

are also in a bit of a reset phase. Marvel and Jurassic Park and the Fast movies and a lot of stuff that is kind of consistently there took a pause to reset. You know, obviously

I think it's safe to say that the biggest winner of the movie year is Ryan Reynolds. And that win is twofold. One, at a time when the superhero industrial complex seemed to be at a pretty significant downturn, he engineered, starred in, produced a billion-dollar movie.

That movie is basically a mad TV sketch, but it's a pretty funny mad TV sketch. And, you know, between that and his wife, Blake Lively, starring in producing It Ends With Us, which is arguably the biggest box office surprise of the year. Um, though maybe for non Colleen Hoover knowers, that's true.

I don't know. I thought that movie didn't do nearly what they wanted it to. Is that true? Not necessarily in terms of like box office, but in terms of like, um, impact. I just,

I thought like, well, first of all, you know, just to get my sort of like celebrity gossip angle in i will say that was a disastrous press tour for that film um it made money certainly but i my my belief was that blake lively thought this was going to be like golden globe winner like you know uh just just a sort of glossier thing than it wound up being

at the end of the day. And I think they really whiffed the marketing on it. The quality of the movie aside, they whiffed the marketing on it. They whiffed that whole launch in a way that like, was interesting because I think it actually underlines your point about what Ryan Reynolds did with Deadpool is like, he did that.

They kind of tried to half Barbenheimer it because Deadpool and Wolverine came out and then It Ends With Us came out a week or two later. And Hugh Jackman and Ryan Reynolds were showing up to the various premieres of It Ends With Us to sort of say, let's keep the party going. But the content of that film,

which is about domestic violence, was just really not the match made in heaven that Barbenheimer proved to be. And so it felt like that was a failure to replicate what worked so well with dead plume wolverine but maybe not a financial failure so maybe i'm i'm sort of overstating well it's clear that one the movie i i just found the movies be not very good um and it feels it feels a very ham-handed in its storytelling about a sensitive issue.

My big concerns were I think I was expecting a completely different kind of movie so when I sat down I was quite flummoxed by what it turned out to be but most people who sat down

had read the book or were interested in the story and had some sense of what it was going to be and I think people liked it well enough but not even close

to being what you're describing which is like a potential awards contender or springboard for some sort of elevation of Blake Lively's status as a movie star yeah but the movie made 350 million dollars internationally and it's a literary adaptation I mean that's in these times that is very rare and it is

Colin Hoover is like a juggernaut in publishing right now. She is unstoppable. And so that sort of like IP that comes with her was a massive boost. It's, you know, it's similar to launching the Fifty Shades franchise or something like that. It's not just like a literary adaptation. It is a genuine phenomenon brought to the screen. And I think you're right that like, of course, I can't argue against $350 million. But looking at sort of, I don't know if this is fair letterbox scores or other things like that it's getting really panned and so i don't think it's i don't think it's something that began something it was successful

but not something that when you take it around to people to say here's what we do next they're going to say yes yes more of that necessarily that's it i wonder i'm not sure i mean i think it i think it may have accomplished what Blake Lively needed it to, even though the gossip around the movie was very not good. And I would argue not good for Blake Lively in particular.

Correct. But I'm not sure. We'll have to basically wait until either she makes another one of these films in the Hoover series or does something else new. I guess she's doing a simple, simple favor.

Is that what it's called? Simple favor two. Two. Yeah. More menswear. Yeah. We can only hope. Which,

you know, that in and of itself was kind of a hit. Yeah. The original. No, I mean, I, I anticipate we will get more Colleen Hoover,

whether or not that means we'll get more Blake Lively plus Colleen Hoover. I don't know. Okay. So I think it was a win for Colin Hoover film adaptation or TV adaptation more than anything else. And I personally, this is like, this is my personal nemesis is the Hooververse. I'm just like really out on it. So we'll see.

I only put that it ends with us in that conversation because it's been reported that Ryan Reynolds did a bit of a ghost write on the it ends With Us script. And so he really had his fingers in two of the genuine box office successes of 2024. That was such a weird moment where she just started saying that on red carpets. And Justin Baldoni, who's the writer and director, was sort of like, oh, okay. She was just basically trying to give Ryan credit for, I don't know, ghostwriting the film? Anyway, bizarre moment in celebrity culture. But definitely, in. You know, she was just basically like trying to give Ryan credit for, I don't know, ghostwriting the film. Anyway, bizarre moment in celebrity culture. But definitely, inarguably, the Reynolds touch this year was very important.

And I'm sure that Marvel is saying, whatever you want, sir, you can do with us. Which is just a wild power imbalance. I mean, like Downey obviously had a strong grip over the marvel apparatus but i but they were never as desperate as they are right now they were never such a weak moment as they are right now so yeah i'm not sure if that's going to pay off long term we shall see the people do love them some ryan reynolds i don't know i don't really i don't even know what to say anymore pay off in what way what's that well meaning like pay off in what way Deadpool will

obviously find his way into whatever these secret war stories they tell are right that is smart whether like a Deadpool 4 movie could ever do what Deadpool and Wolverine does I don't know but then again why would I bet against him and I should just stop talking about it because like this people loved this movie they fucking loved it they did they did um did you have a backup for

power couple if it's not reynolds and blake lively yeah well i mean i would say ariana grande and cynthia arrivo like you know similarly the whole wicked phenomenon is what it is because the movie as much as you and i both agree on it visually um is better than i expected it was going to be um i was really dreading this film and i think they did a lot of things um that i didn't expect them to do but the power of the ariana grande cynthia rivo story maybe more ariana grande story because ariana grande is like here i am i'm an actress take me cast me in things um cynthia rivo's here i am a stage actress cast me in more of your films that would be great um but their press tour again you know this is a film podcast

i don't mean to make it all about the celebrity stuff but their press tour as as ridiculed as it was was then turned around to become this great triumphant story it was like in an odd moment everyone was mocking it then they saw the movie and then they said wow look at what these women did and look how important their friendship is and look how strong their brand is that's definitely what i said absolutely oh well yeah you're known for that you love to talk about people as brands so you know i know that about you yeah i mean look obviously they have just been tremendously successful with selling this movie to the world and really the the only review that matters in my life will be coming in this weekend because i have obtained a screener to wicked and will be watching it in my home with my three-year-old

and this morning she demanded to see the trailer and said, I need to see the trailer for the movie where Elphaba is good. So I'll let you know next week. Do you think it's going to... So you guys have been listening to the soundtrack in your home, right? Yes. Didn't you say that? And we've pivoted to the movie soundtrack now too.

Okay. Do you feel like if your daughter loves this movie will it change your opinion of the movie? Um, yes. Yeah. Yeah,

I mean, I'm just like complete, like I'm just in the bag for my kid, you know, I'm just like, you know, I love the movie Wish

because she loved it and Wish is widely considered one of the worst Disney animated features of all time and I was like, pretty good. I like the songs.

I'm interested. I saw Moana 2 and I didn't like it. And then I went to go see it with her and I was just bumping the soundtrack, dropping her to school this morning. And then on the way home, I was like, I'm going to keep that song going in the car after I left school.

Like it's a disease what happens when you get interested in stuff with your kids. It's great. Okay. So Universal Pictures, if you want Sean to be pushing Wicked in the best picture category, send a box of goodies to his house

you know where to find his child the most influential presence in the awards race this year yeah apologies to all the pundits out there but Alice is the strongest voice you know I guess that does dovetail with the studio of the year conversation you suggested when we first started talking about this that Universal has a really strong case I, that universal has a really strong case.

I think Disney also has a really strong case for which is the biggest, you know, the hierarchy has been pretty consistent over the last five years. It's more or less been universal and Disney going back and forth with WB, Sony and Paramount picking up the slack. Yeah. Um, there was obviously the bar,

the Barbie phenomenon boosted Warner Brothers last year, but these are really the two major theatrical movie studios. It also feels like while Universal has been persistently very theatrical forward, Disney is now fully back to being theatrical forward. Moana 2 being the clearest sign yet that there's just, there's so much money in those hills, those exhibition hills

for them and you know for us for the purposes of this show I think that's wonderful I do think that Universal probably had a slightly bigger challenge

with getting Wicked right and along with a handful of other films you know like The Wild Robot is a good example of a movie that they just like they got that right

and it did pretty good business and will probably The Substance? Yeah well yeah but they don movie that they just like, they got that right. And it did pretty good business and we'll probably. The substance. Yeah. Well, yeah, but they don't, do they really get to benefit from that?

Cause they, they like pawned it off on movie, you know, like they backed it, but then they don't really get to claim it. They do get to claim it though. It's still in their stable, you know,

along with twisters and Nosferatu and the bike riders and my favorite fall guy, you know, like there's like, this was a really good year for them uh and and and and targeting different demographics too in a way that i don't think disney as is as expansive in there i agree with you i mean the you know universal already i think generally has the best reputation of the major studios for being simultaneously very filmmaker-friendly and very audience-friendly, right? This is the studio that signed up Christopher Nolan after the WB fallout. They signed up Jordan Peele. They signed up Daniels after everything, everywhere, all at once. They're trying to bring in as many people into the fold that are creative and interesting.

And they're also making Wicked. And they're also making Twisters. So they have a claim. That are creative and interesting. And they're also making Wicked. And they're also making Twisters, you know? So they have a claim. That being said, Disney has Deadpool, Wolverine, and Inside Out 2. And now Moana 2. And those are going to end up being the three biggest movies of the year. So, you know, how can you compete with that?

Well, what do you, what do you, okay, when you say biggest, are you just talking about box office? Interesting question. I don't know. How do you think we should measure it? Okay. So I will say that over on this other Ringer podcast, I do trial by content. We've been tinkering over the years with this sort of algorithm to try to capture what is the biggest, like this Q score for the biggest movie here.

Because it can't just be box office because terrible movies make tons of money and no one ever talks about them again. And that happens all the time. It's very true. So it's like, so what is your Top Gun Maverick? What is your Barbenheimer? What is your like the movie of the year? And it has like, you know, there's again, letter like letterboxes its own thing because that's a different audience, you know, that that is making their voice known. Yes, my brutal boys and girls. God bless all of them. There you go.

The Babylon Hive continues, right? And then there's BoxOffice Budget Multiplier is one that we've been adding to the algorithm. Good idea. How profitable was this at the end of the day? There's not just the Letterboxd score, but there's how many people logged in on Letterboxd is a metric that we're tracking.

Metacritic score. Just trying to, and I really think we got it right this year. It was a little janky last year. The Eris Tour movie came in at the end of the year like a wrecking ball and really destroyed everything. But I think this year we really got it. Do you want to hear our top 10? Yeah, I do. That is box office in addition to other things.

Absolutely. So number one, Doom Part 2. Okay. Number two, Inside Out 2. Number three, The Wild Robot. Number four, Wicked. Number five, Deadpool and Wolverine. Number six, Challengers. Number seven seven stay with me number seven long legs number eight the substance number nine furiosa number 10 alien romulus for stuff like challengers and long legs and the substance i feel like these are films that are just going to stay alive in the conversation for years and years and years to come because when you talk to people who like

love cinema they're going to say have have you seen The Substance this year? Did you watch Challengers? Whether or not those performed at the, you know, the box office multiplier obviously helps something like Long Legs. But like, I think there's just like an interesting maelstrom that we need to consider that goes beyond what the box office can tell us these days because the box office is so different. That is just like, there was something so big in this movie. I felt like I had to see it on the screen. And I don't know that people feel that way about the sexy tennis that is Challengers. I had to go to the cinema to see it. But if they see it at home, it's going to linger gonna linger with them you know that's my

argument i love that you've put so much thought into the methodology that's exactly the kind of dumb shit that i'm interested in yeah i don't i don't know that i haven't looked at the numbers that you've collated but i'm not sure if i fully agree with where you landed in part because i think deadpool and wolverine being the second highest grossing movie of the year and also being a movie that essentially kept the seat warm for an entire wing of Hollywood is not measurable, but incredibly important. And I think really like undermined a lot of my suspicions about where culture was.

It's incredible success. Well, because on the episode that we did with the Midnight Boys about it, I was like, is this what people want? I remember asking that question because like as I sat in the movie theater i laughed i got all the references i was happy to have been on the journey with 20th century fox's superhero stories and all of the unmade movies and it was great to see gambit and you know against my own sincere will i laughed at ryan reynolds but i couldn was like, God, this is so up its own ass.

I can't believe it. And it still was like monumentally big. I mean, it was, it's basically an old school box office success. You know, it's a movie, it's a remnant of 2018 and not of 2024. So I see a movie like that as being pretty significant in this measurement that we're having here. It was always going to be though. see a movie like that as being pretty significant in this measurement that we're having here it was always going to be though like when people were sort of spinning their webs about um this is the

end of marvel last year um you know those of us who might have been on a a marvel-based book tour were saying they have one movie coming out next year one movie and it's deadpool and wolverine and it's gonna make an obscene amount of money and it's gonna give them the space they need to lick their wounds and figure out where to go from there um i think the writing on the wall for this has been happening since no way spider-man no way home that was a that was a similar sort of nostalgia play that worked way more than I even expected it would. And so there's,

there's this in the, I don't know, um, pause superhero pause or dying gasp, however you prefer to call it. Um, there is this clutching at nostalgia straws, which is why Downey and Chris Evans are coming back to the MCU.

That is the space we're in, at least in that avenue of storytelling. I was just on a text chain with friends last night about the Chris Evans coming back thing, and we discussed it when you and I talked about Red One, but what a disappointment that he just has done absolutely nothing with his Marvel capital

and is now just going back after making three horrible streaming movies. It's just, it's a real drag, especially relative to what Sebastian Stan is doing, where he's just like, absolutely. I'll go work with a Romanian auteur and try to elevate his work internationally.

It's like, it's just such a, it sucks. We talked about exactly this. And I, and I, as much as I hate that for Chris Evans and what's, what's even more disappointing is that he can do,

we saw knives out. He can do it. There's, more disappointing is that he can do we saw knives out he can do it there's there are things that he can do he just doesn't have the taste or the advice that sebastian stan is getting yeah but he does have the taste he made snowpiercer he made sunshine he made scott pilgrim versus the world like he knows who good filmmakers are he he proved to us. So I'm a little, it's more like he doesn't care, which is obviously his right as a person. But that's depressing. That's depressing. Anyway, we don't have to spend

any more time on Chris Evans. I tell you what, I love your case for Universal. The fact that they spoke to a lot of different kinds of audiences in an effective way. So let's go with Universal as the studio. Let's talk about the movie star.

Now, I was chatting with our friend Craig Horlbeck this morning about this. And he had a great comp that may be completely baffling to you, but I'm going to make an attempt to explain it. There's a famous football clip from the last couple of years in which DK, or excuse me,

in which Buda Baker intercepts a pass. He's a safety for the Arizona Cardinals. And he's running to bring that interception into the end zone for a touchdown. And while he's running, he doesn't realize that the wide receiver, DK Metcalf, is on his tail and is about to knock the ball out, forcing a fumble and halting that interception touchdown.

That is what Timothee Chalamet is doing in Glenn Powell in the movie Star of the Year race. Where Glenn Powell, up until about three weeks ago, I was like, well, this is the story. Huge streaming hit in Hitman.

It's going to get him a Golden Globe nomination. Plus, Twister's cherry on top. This is a box office star. This is a guy who can carry a franchise. Everything that we've been saying on the show for the last five years, but everything that's been kind of in the ether of Hollywood

for the last five years with Glenn, it happened. Anyone but you carried over from last year, he's the guy. He's our pick. And then Chalamet showed up on game day, college game day. And I was like, holy shit, A Complete Unknown is going to be a big hit.

On top of that Dune Part 2 phenomenon that you were citing earlier. And so my gut is like, wow, DK Metcalf, the button on Glenn. Right? Does it feel that way? Absolutely. I mean, you put a bunch of these ideas in the doc, and I was trying to find alts for you just to keep the conversation interesting. And I could not make a good case for anyone else other than Timmy as the movie star of the year. The bookend of Dune Part 2 and A Complete Unknown.

Again, the slightly different demographics they're serving in terms of... Dune Part 2 obviously is in the Oscar conversation, but not the way in which A Complete Unknown has put him in the best actor conversation. He could totally win, Joe. He could absolutely win. And I think he might. And so, and we liked the movie. Yeah. And we liked him.

And more than anything else, we liked him in the movie. So there's all of that. And then there's like the lingering fumes of one of our favorite conversations from last year, which is like somehow Wonka worked, um, you know? Uh, and so Timmy at this point feels undeniable, which is exciting because, you know, in the age of, is the movie star dead, this young crop coming up of like your Zendaya's, your Timothy Chalamet's, your Florence Pugh's, your entire cast of Doom Part Two, let's say. Like that they can actually have movie stardom, not sort of the faint echo of movie stardom past is exciting. And it's only good for, you you know the conversation about the impact of movies in general i would argue too that he is doing it in a way that perhaps no one has ever done it

before because he's got a big challenge right you can't become a movie star now just on the back of exciting action or drama features the way that paul newman Harrison Ford did or Tom Cruise did or Denzel Washington did. Obviously, Hollywood is in a significantly different state. You need to use franchises to elevate. And so he has very deftly chosen franchises. He's aligned himself with a couple of filmmakers. And he's also taken traditional risks in terms of, you know, relatively big budget dramas. So, if you look at like the full scale of his career,

two movies with Greta Gerwig, you've got, obviously, the two Dune films with Villeneuve. You've got a Bob Dylan portrayal with James Mangold,

all celebrated directors. You've got Wonka with another celebrated director in Paul King, but a much, like playing to kids, not playing to adults totally different

you've also got like even this you're obviously Luca Guadagnino and call me by your name and getting an Academy Award nomination at an incredibly young age even the stuff that doesn't work

like Beautiful Boy I thought was like the right try the right attempt Bones and All is like the right thing to try to have a well-rounded CV as a young actor.

And so... Being someone that Wes Anderson calls, you know. Exactly. Yes. And, you know, now is obviously working with Josh Safdie,

who he's wanted to work with for a long time. He's known those guys forever. That's a cool A24 period piece. That's also a different... It's a different card in the deck. And so now it's like you look at the arc of his career and it's like he's not Leo.

He's not Brad Pitt. He's not George Clooney. He's not like there's no 90s or 2000s archetype that he is really following. He's doing a little Daniel Day-Lewis. He's doing a little a little like I don't know who's a young heartthrob like he's doing a little Christian Bale. He's doing

he's kind of moving all over the place in terms of the role picks. How is he not? It's interesting because I've heard him talk about the fact that like he wanted to do, he wanted to be Leo, but then he realized that that wasn't really exactly what he wanted or exactly what was available to him. But there is some Leo in there, in the mix, for sure.

There absolutely is. But Leo would never go on college game day. He wouldn't do that. He wouldn't go on Theo Vaughn's podcast and hang out and talk about Bernie Sanders. I mean, this... He wouldn't talk to Brittany Broski and like know all the inside jokes. Yes, exactly. That is...

He might date a Kardashian. But, you know. Yes. But even that is like, Leo hasn't had a very famous girlfriend in a long time. Maybe younger Leo the same way Chalamet is young. He prefers to be the star of that relationship. Yeah, that's interesting. And I think what goes along with all of it,

genuine talent, obviously, that's in the mix. That's in the mix for plenty of people, but it's in the mix for him. But then also the narrative around a complete unknown, the amount of sweat equity that went into that project, the, the, you know,

the musical training, the footage of him, you know, rehearsing on the set of Dune, nothing, nothing I think can match. Watching him rehearse to be Bob Dylan while dressed as Paul Atreides.

That's just undeniable. It's pretty cool. It's just really a huge relief to actually have someone like this. So I'm like, wow, definitely we'll be thinking about this guy in 20 years.

Like there's just, unless he's failed by some terrible scandal, I think he's here to stay Clip this and save it for the future But let's hope we don't have to use it How many things can you clip for me at this point? How many times can I be dragged through the mud

For my bad takes? Joanna, please don't draw attention to those things I'm not the one dragging you You had another great idea For a winner of the year Which is a genre winner. And it's pretty clearly musicals, right? This seems to be in the absence of huge action franchises,

in the absence of studio comedies, in the absence of romance movies. Musicals, when you look down the list, obviously Wicked springs to mind immediately. But let's not forget that we've got three potentially big music musician biopics. Of course,

One Love, the Bob Marley movie, which did come out at the beginning of this year and was a big hit, especially when you look at the list of movies that came out

and the box office returns. Like, it did quite well. And then A Complete Unknown, which we were just discussing. And I just had a chance to see Better Man last night, the Robbie Williams movie, which I don't know

if it's going to do business, but it is certainly a unique thing. You liked it? I liked it i liked it did you like it parts of it um you know obviously anybody doesn't know robbie williams is a huge british pop star was a member of the group take that um and tried to break through in america in the 2000s it didn't quite take but he remained a massive star in the uk this new biopic which is directed by michael gracie who made the greatest showman features your kind of standard issue musician biopic story except that robbie williams is portrayed by a cgi monkey which is

a very thinly veiled not even a metaphor it's a literalization of the fact that uh all entertainers are like dancing monkeys yeah and um half of it is very stupid and boring and half of it is exhilarating so kind of like the greatest showman yeah yeah yeah i would say i would say uh this is better i think than the greatest showman uh was for me personally for my taste is it is it cinema is it wonderful no but as a piece of pop art I really enjoyed it but take that sequence when they

burst out of the store and dance in the street I was like this rocks this is so fun it was so good the you've listed

all these films there's also Emilia Perez Perez I completely forgot about Emilia Perez yeah and Moana 2 and Mean Girls which also did very well this year the musical uh remake of Mean Girls

um yeah it seems like it seems like musicals are doing well what what's what's your alt for this the only alt I could come up with this is a good one and it's an unserious one is uh in the vein of Better Man. Digital Monkeys. Better Man, Wicked, The Flying Monkeys of Wicked, The Strange Abominations in Gladiator 2, Mufasa's got plenty. Rafiki. Yeah.

Yeah. And there was a Planet of the Apes movie this year, Lest We Forget. So Digital Monkeys. It's a great pick. It's honestly legitimate. This is the one part of wicked too wicked that we'll have to fast forward through in my house by the way the monkeys is gonna be a lot someone was asking me if they could take their kid like a small kid to wicked i was like those

monkeys are they startled me yeah me too it's actually quite upsetting yeah yeah um okay so you know i i think that there's a another nice confirmation that is on the back of the chalamet thing which is that zendaya now i think similarly as a movie figure is not just mary jane anymore between challengers which you mentioned earlier and the success that that movie had and then the fact that chani was so central to dune part two which was not promised necessarily i guess if you've read the novel the fact that villain have made that decision that great bit Chani was so central to Dune Part 2, which was not promised necessarily, I guess, if you've read the novel, the fact that Villeneuve made that decision,

that great bit of press when Spielberg interviewed Villeneuve and said, like, out of all the people in your cast, who do you think will be directing movies in 20 years? And he was like, oh, easily Zendaya, easily. She was on the set with her camera.

I loved that. Yeah, it was great. And I think that, especially after like the hue and cry after the first installment when she's sort of barely in it, having her as the, I love. Zendaya, it's funny because when I was looking at your power couple category, I was really trying to convince myself that I could put Zendaya and Tom Holland in there, and I simply can't because Tom Holland has not yet been anything other than Peter Parker or Zendaya's biggest hype guy. And so as much as I love and support them, I can't call them the power couple

that one might call Ryan Reynolds and Deadpool. But Zendaya as a minted movie star, especially off the back of Challengers, a non-franchise real powerhouse turn, I think is exciting. Yeah. And the good news is that she gets to now make Euphoria for the next 18 months.

And I mean, one can only hope the greatest showman too um well i know i have heard a little bit about um the film that she's making with robert pattinson for a24 with chris borgway who made dream scenario that movie sounds really good i don't i can't i'm not at liberty to share too much about it but what I heard about it sounded great. So I'm excited about that. Wow. What a tease. I think it's called the drama. I don't know.

Don't quote me on that. Okay. My riser of the year, obviously it was Glenn. Cause Glenn got bumped from movie star of the year, sadly, but he's a, he's a,

he's a riser. Who's your alt for riser? Friend of the pond. Um, I was looking at it and I was, um, I think Glenn, the Glenn story is undeniable. But Kaylee Spanning being in both Alien Romulus, though not the best part of Alien Romulus,

and Civil War, I think is a worthy narrative. I mean, she was already sort of on the rise because of Priscilla and all of that. But I think this is a really good year for her. Again, in terms of like, she's in a franchise film and a film from a filmmaker that we both find very exciting at the same time. And so that was, I think it's a strong year for her. And then I think Margaret Qualley, even though she was very much in the conversation, there's something about the way that people have reacted to the substance that I think has locked her into

a level of celebrity. She, even as like Andy McDowell's kid or, uh, after a really good performance in, in made or, um, you know, having a celebrity relationship or this, that, and the other thing being in a Tarantino film, I think this really pushed her into a different level. I think that's a great call. I hadn thought of that but it does feel like she got famous for lack of a better phrase this year so that's a good pick too uh indie story of the year to me is an absolute no-brainer it's Damian Leone and Terrifier 3 and the fact that that movie opened at number one in America and has made an extraordinary amount of money relative to the investment and the fact that Damien has been working on this project for over 10 years

and Cineverse doubled down on expanding the movie onto thousands of screens and honestly has got people in studio horror shook because now that movie feels like a real pivot point, a real hinge moment now where everyone's looking for their Terrifier 3 and the truth is it's not replicable but it's got executives and producers

looking all over the place for potential talents in a way that is so so good for horror and that horror desperately needs so for me it's exciting

Terrifier 3 I thought was okay I think Terrifier 2 is the superior of those movies not that it matters of the Terrifiers? yeah

okay but its success is very very exciting what's your alt? was okay i think terrifier 2 is the superior of those movies not that it matters yeah okay um but its success is very very exciting um what's your alt well what else would you put under the indie horror uh umbrella this year um i think in a violent nature and late night with the devil which were both ifc shutter films both had theatrical runs that did significantly better than i ever would have expected late night with the devil especially kind of minting david uh desmalchin as like a proper leading man it was very cool exciting and then long legs obviously i mean there's very rarely been anything like that from a from a kind of a micro major like neon to to drive that

much interest in a movie that i think actually ultimately most people were kind of mixed on um but that they just marketed the fuck out of it and it did so well. I liked it. So, you know, up and down year for horror in general, the majors, the major studios,

I think did not have a good year for horror. But I also think they'll be back next year too. You're Abigail's? Okay. Yeah, yeah. I have an alt here, but I actually, I need your feedback on this

because um i thought maybe sundance as a whole and the only reason i obviously sundance often lingers across the year but i feel like in recent years it's felt like diminishing its power has been diminishing and i just know that in the conversations you and i have had over the past couple weeks I felt like I kept hearing you say and obviously that was a movie at Sundance earlier this year I felt like I heard that more than I usually do and I couldn't tell if that was just my imagination but some titles A Real Pain, Different Man, Mild Ass, Dee Dee, Will and Harper, I Saw the TV Glow, Kneecap, Between the temples. Like that seems to

me, and especially as we're in the middle of an awards conversation and a real pain is here and DeeDee is still like hanging around, different man is hanging around. I saw the TV glow is sort of burbling around a bit in some awards circles and Will and Harper just got shortlisted in the docs. Like it's, it just seems like a more impactful Sundance here than usual. I think there's actually a whole slate of documentaries too. I mean, most of the documentaries

that are on the shortlist premiered at Sundance. I think over half of them, including Sugarcane was there, Soundtrack to a Coup d'etat was there, a number of other films, like we're all really good films. You know,

I've done Sundance virtually the last two years. I'm doing it again this year virtually. And it's candidly better for me because I feel like I need to see roughly 30 movies so that I can be prepared for what you're describing. But I think it's a great insight because the studios did not have the ability to either be in production or do the reshoots that they needed to do during the strikes. So there were tons of

empty weekends over the years. And that created opportunity for movies like the ones you just listed to have a little bit more breathing room to get into the conversation this year. And you're right. They made the most of it for the most part. None of these movies did really as well commercially as you would want. Even a movie like A Real Pain, which I think 10 or 20 years ago would have been playing at the Angelica for like three months. Totally.

It's not quite doing that, but they are in the conversation for sure. Right. I mean, like Kieran Culkin's about to win an Oscar for it, right? And I saw the TV Glow keeps coming up as like your favorite filmmaker's favorite filmmaker. You know what I mean? Like a lot of filmmakers are talking about, I saw the TV Glow as something that felt really impactful to them this year. So that movie to me is the one that probably will be the most influential on people who are in their early 20s who will go out and make movies. Because what Jane did in that film,

the hallmarks are so obvious for what they were after, but there had never really been that kind of synthesis before. And so I expect that movie to be a big calling card if I'm interviewing directors in 10 years who are 30 years younger than me. They'll be citing something like that. Hopefully. That's a wonderful movie.

So I see that as a good thing. Okay. Comeback of the year. To me, this was an easy one. I like your alt as well. dimmy moore in the substance and the fact that she has not headlined a studio movie in almost 20 years and delivers uh i think a brilliant and deeply committed performance and did it in an incredibly strange movie there's not even though dimmy moore is known for taking chances there's not a lot in her career that suggests she would be a part of a movie like this. So I was blown away. Not Charlie's Angels 2?

No. No. But even movies like G.I. Jane or Striptease where she kind of transformed herself. Never anything this kind of genre bound. So I think it's really cool and great and it's been great to see her through the award circuit the last few months.

And I think also, I mean, I don't want to like throw a parade for the beautiful people of the world when they decide to get unglamorous for a role because like, okay, listen, great, good for you. But like her brand has, and her personal brand has been so tied up in her beauty for so long that there's something incredibly profound and sticky about what she did with the substance. And I remember that, you know, I know you do too, just the conversations about it coming out of Cannes. And it was like, sometimes these conversations happen. It was at Cannes, right? It was not Venice. It was Cannes. Anyway, like, yeah, it was Cannes. Some of these festival conversations, you hear it from afar and you're like, that's everyone just trying to make a story.

And this one sounded so improbable that I was like, all right, my pals at Vanity Fair or whatever it is, I don't believe that this is going to be what you're saying it's going to be. And then lo and behold, it absolutely was. was and actually even more than i think a lot of uh people even um in the various profiles on demi that was coming out of the festivals this was just even bigger than that my alt um is adrian brody as a bona fide leading man and this is for you my fatal my favorite brutalist fan um so i was talking to someone about the brutalist um and i was like yeah and adrian brody's like really really good in it you know i'm not as high on the movie as you are sean but i was like adrian brody's really really good in it um and in you know 95 of the movie and she was like well when has he ever not been good i was like i don't have an

argument for you about that but i will just say yes, we get excited when he shows up in succession or yes, he's been a great part of the Wes Anderson players, but he won the best actor Oscar and then his career as a leading man did not really continue from there the way that we thought it would uh with love and respect to king kong and so the fact that he did this is so good in it will i hope um encourage people to cast him as as like the real leading man that he definitely can be he's he's so captivating in the brutalist and something that you know brady corbett and his lens knew how to do was just like, they were just shot, like just the way his like body was just sort of like arced around in this.

It was like its own piece of architecture in this movie. It was just like a really, really, this is a star, remember? He won an Oscar for a reason sort of moment for him. So, yeah. I think one of the reasons why he resonated so deeply in the early 2000s is because he reminded

a lot of Academy voters and the pianists of a certain kind of 70s star of a Pacino, a Cazale, a Gene Hackman. You know, like beautiful in his own way, but unconventionally appealing.

And his choices as a leading man in the aftermath, I always thought were pretty interesting. You know, he made The Village. He made The Jacket. He made King Kong. He made The Darjeeling Limited, The Brothers Bloom,

and Cadillac Records. That was his run. I love those. A lot of those movies are really interesting. Unfortunately for him, they're all like the fifth or sixth best movie love a lot of those movies are really interesting. Unfortunately for him, they're all like the fifth or sixth best movie from a lot of good filmmakers. Yeah. So he kind of got some bad luck in there too.

You know, it's like he got the one Ryan Johnson movie that didn't totally hit, you know, he got the fifth best M night Shyamalan movie, you know, like it just didn't really totally happen. And I, I mean,

of course I agree. I think he, obviously the movie rests on his shoulders in The Brutalist. We are with him almost the entire film. And it's hard to look away from him. I've always liked him as an actor. And it is a good story. It's a good story.

It's so interesting to me that he is competing against Chalamet in Best Actor because he once upon a time was Chalamet. Maybe not as much of a heartthrob or didn't have quite the cv that chalamet has at this point but he was the youngest ever winner and if chalamet wins this year he will be the youngest ever winner for best actor so it's an interesting race and it's a great great pick um let's try to do the losers as quickly as we can um you know i know that you just recorded an episode of The House of Midnight about Kraven.

And Kraven ends now, I believe, this experiment in Sony's Spider-Man Extended Universe. Even though we'll still get the next animated Spider-Verse movie. And Spider-Man Noir. And Spider-Man Noir, the Amazon series, which I guess Nick Cage is going to star in. Live action, Nick Cage, Spider-Man Noir. Cool. A lot of questions. That's interesting. Yeah. series which i guess nick cage is going to star in live action the cage spider-man war cool a lot of questions interesting um yeah and we'll get another tom holland appearance in a spider-man movie i think is it uh destin daniel cretin is making that right um but this world but isn't there gonna be a venom 4 too i mean venom just made like 400 million dollars

i don't know how exaggerated the reported death of this universe is but this year we had craven the hunter venom 3 and madame webb three of my worst times at the movie theater personally um craven really stinks joe it's real bad yeah and madame webb is perhaps even worse and i would say dr michael morbius is perhaps even worse than all of those combined. And so, Venom 3, I had a good time because we were all together. That was fun. But I did feel a moment of sanity with you when some of our pals were like, that was so fun.

I had a great time. And you were laughing. And you were like, yeah, that was a disaster. And I agree with you. I think that film is a disaster. It's pretty bad. Narratively a disaster. And you know me, I love to love a Venom movie.

I know you do. I think this might be a pause more than an obituary moment. But a pause they really need to take and figure it out. Well, I don't think it necessarily signals too much about the comic book movie industrial complex. We're obviously going to keep getting those. We spent some time talking about Superman.

We're talking about Downey and Evans coming back. I do think that... I wanted to make an observation. Please. You've been covering a lot of these shows, mostly on House of R, sometimes on Prestige, but I didn't watch a ton of new shows this year that in theory are right in my sweet spot.

I didn't really watch Agatha. I watched a couple of episodes and gave up on it. I only watched two episodes of The Acolyte. I watched one episode of Dune Prophecy. I watched, I haven't watched Creature Commandos like there's a couple more that were like bigger what are some other big franchise TV titles that

House of the Dragon, Rings of Power I did not watch Rings of Power Skeleton Crew I did not watch Skeleton Crew you know these are all things that are deeply important to my childhood and that in the movies I have kept up with very closely. And I used to do this for the TV shows when the streaming boom happened.

And I just don't have the energy, time, or interest at all for this stuff anymore. And I think what it means is a retrenchment into the movies because I think a lot of these studios and streamers understand that TV is not necessarily the best place for all of these things. Some of them it is. Oh, The Penguin is another one, which in theory, I think I would like. I think you will like The Penguin. Yeah. But like for whatever reason, I never was compelled. Maybe I will now that I have some time over the break to watch it. But it's so interesting to me that with the exception probably of The Penguin, that all of those other properties are like either critically a little middling or

audience wise were a little middling or some combination of both you know i know i know you had a lot of affection for agatha but i wouldn't say it was like a breakout smash that was more personal affection i'm i'm clear enough to say that that was personal affection and though it was i think a bigger hit than a lot of people thought it was going to be i'm not saying it was like it didn't do what wandavision did and like sort of cross outside of the Marvel faithful or anything like that. I think that it was a tough year in terms of like, Acolyte was tough. I think Doom Prophecy is rough, that sort of stuff.

I really liked Rings of Power personally. And Rings of Power is a sneakily hugely popular show. A show that I skipped that people love is Fallout. Yeah. And I need to catch up on it. But that was a massive hit. I think that's their biggest show ever, right? Amazon?

Yeah. Massive, massive hit. And then next year we're going to have stuff like The Last of Us Season 2. There is going to be a Game of Thrones thrones universe show nine of seven kingdoms that i actually think has a possibility of being better than house of the possibly better than house of the dragon we'll see um just because of the source material um i think that you know like severance if you're asking about you were asking more about a franchise more than genre but like but i think i think what everyone is doing is retrenching and just sort

of trying to figure things out and so like for marvel television for example like you're gonna watch daredevil like that's that's am i you're yeah you are you are i'm getting old i no no no you are not that old sean but also what's true is that while Marvel has definitely tarnished their own brand by putting out very middling to bad TV shows, like Secret Invasion, one of the worst things I've ever seen, right? And so you're like, how can I trust again? How can I love again? That is how I feel. You burnt me. You burnt me so badly. I was the guy yelling on the Movie Bro podcast about how Endgame is a meaningful work of art.

You know, like I was one of those people. And it is. And I think Daredevil is going to work of art. You know, like I was one of those people. And it is. And I think Daredevil is going to be genuinely great. I genuinely do. I really do. I'm not just saying that so that people will listen to House of R. I think they have pressed pause, retrenched this year and are really trying to make sure because I actually think the most critical time lucasfilm is a mess

right now so i don't even want to talk about how we can fix star wars because i actually don't know but in terms of marvel next year is gonna be so pivotal for them because if they do thunderbolts and fantastic four and daredevil and land all of those with the breathing room that deadpool and wolverine gave them financially then you can't say that Marvel's in trouble anymore right I noticed you did not include Captain America 4 in that we don't need to talk about we don't need to talk about we need to talk about all we don't need to talk about the Red Hulk at all should I do a solo video about Red Hulk breaking it down when the film comes out yes into into into camera yeah why. Yeah. Why Red Hulk?

How Red Hulk taught me to be weird. Get the teleprompter out and just really do it for the real sickos out there. Okay. What else do you want to talk about on the losers list? I mean, Apple had a bad year. You know,

they did have a lot of TV shows that I think people liked and I think a lot of those shows are actually underseen relative to the quality and I really admire the swings that they take on the TV side and being able to grow shows like Silo, which is not a show I watch, but the handful of episodes I watch. I was like, okay, this is kind of like hard sci-fi and well-made. And I appreciate that. I appreciate that they're making stuff like Bad Monkey. And I didn't get Sugar at all, but I think it's cool that they tried.

That's all on the TV side. On the movie side, they're a mess. It was just the mess of a year. It's Argyle, Fly Me to the Moon, and Wolves. That's not good. Three of the biggest sort of like punchline movies of the year, unfortunately. I think Fly Me to the Moon

is not an embarrassing movie by any means. It's just a perfectly fine movie that got rolled out in the middle of July it's a perfectly fine movie with like two genuine movie stars

in it who should together have produced something a bit splashier than that I remember when you guys recorded your Wolf's episode

and you were essentially like angry what are we not just what are we doing here but like why are we wasting talented people's time

with this that that was real tough it's true though Argyle is one of the most baffling

things I've ever encountered so it's a fiasco I mean Apple original films let's see what they I mean I know

for a fact they have The Gorge coming early next year, which is the new film from Scott Derrickson starring Miles Teller and Anya Teller-Joy. Let's see what else they have cooking up in 2025 because they do need a bit of a bounce back.

Oh, F1, of course, which is, in theory, a very big deal, the Brad Pitt film, but we shall see. Beyond that, there's a few things that have been announced. The thing that they have going that I'm most interested in is the studio the Seth Rogen series I am very curious I've been told at least on the TV front that again we're in a bit of a retransmit because Apple was just throwing anything at the wall right like we're throwing buckets of money at anyone who will take it uh to make a tv

show and um the the the tap is drying up a bit there but it is wild because there there will be all these shows on apple tv that have incredibly famous people in them and nobody knows they exist and that is a wild thing that apple uh has done in an understandable effort to catch people's attention. But they just don't know how to market their own material for the most part. It's baffling. It feels that way. Let's do one more loser. And I think it's an interesting discussion point, which is the Legacy sequel.

Yeah. Now, we've got a bunch of these. I'm not sure. I'm not sure about this. And I want to just talk to you about it. Well, okay. So, you've made the list of legacy sequels from this year. Twisters, obviously, which is more or less a shadow remake of the original Twister.

Correct. Beetlejuice Beetlejuice. Furiosa. And Bad Boys Ride or Die, which is, I think, a debatable legacy sequel. I think the third film was probably more of a legacy sequel than this one. But we're in that kind of,

that lineage. It's the same with Furiosa. Like, those are sort of like drafting off. Nine years is a good gap. Yeah. And then, and Gladiator 2, of course.

And Gladiator 2. But yeah. Yeah, yeah. It's tough because I would say with the exception of Furiosa, all of these movies were financially successful. Gladiator 2 has kind of chugged its way, I think, to profitability over the holidays.

And so, Twisters, Beetlejuice, Bad Boys Ride or Die, and Gladiator 2 made good money. I think all of these movies are disappointing creatively with the exception of Furiosa, which you and I are both like, it's good.

We agree it's good. We're not going to fight with anybody about it. I know people disagree with us. That's okay. There's nothing negative really to say about the movie, but it wildly underperformed

at the box office. I think we were, I think, weren't we like, I think good is higher than we landed i think we said like mixed like that there were parts of it that were really really good i said this week on the show i'm it's a seven out of ten for me that's like i can't yeah you know yeah it's it's good yeah that's not a bad movie by any stretch but it is a movie that i i thought was flawed

um nevertheless like all of these movies they're all kind of different, you know? Like Beetlejuice, Beetlejuice, I got kind of hyped up on at CinemaCon. Did you? The hype was right, which is that it was going to be a big hit, and it was a big hit. But I thought it was a pretty mediocre movie.

Even though I was glad to see Tim Burton back with practical effects in that world and kind of being weird Tim, the script is real bad. And I would just say, not like this, Tim, I've also been asking for that,

but not like this, Tim. Yeah. And twisters, I think is a lot of fun and a good blockbuster, but deeply iterative. You know, I just,

I just don't want to fill in for Amanda and speak ill of twisters, but I did not have a good time with this movie. That's interesting. Yeah. I mean, I've heard some people say the same. Um, I think Amanda and I had a lot of fun with it,

but it's not really wanted to. It was like, I was really excited for this movie. Really, really excited for it. I was like a true believer. Love Daisy. Love Glenn.

I think it was just, it was just too, it was similar to what we were. Yeah. What we were saying about gladiator too. And you just said iter iterative like it upset me that a filmmaker that i admire so much uh in lee isaac chung was just like uninterested in making something that didn't feel like beat for beat in a way um i i was disappointed by that even more so than i would be in ridley scott because ridley is so up and down over the years, who's to say,

but like, I was excited for this, you know, this exciting, um, innovative filmmaker gets a franchise that we, we wasn't, it was a,

was a massive blockbuster in the nineties that we loved and put really interesting people in it. And I was like, this is going to be amazing. And then I just thought it was aggressively fine, you know, at the end of the day. Yeah.

I hear, I hear, I hear that. And I've heard many other people say it. I don't know if it's like, I don't know if you can call the legacy sequel of loser. It's more of like a hold, you know,

like these movies made enough money that it's going to mean, it means there's going to be a lot more of them over the next 10 years. But I'm not sure that I look forward to them. Nobody Fury wrote it at this year is the thing. No one took a property and did something really exciting. I mean, I would put Alien Romulus in here too, though you can't really call that a legacy sequel. But that was one that has some really exciting sequences to it

and then some baffling choices as well. It is kind of a legacy tweener, right? Because I think it happens between one and two isn't that the timeline um another movie that i think i feel very similarly about uh romulus as i do to twisters which is like in the theater had a great time the more i thought about it the more i felt i could pick it apart but the in theaters and i probably won't watch it again you know whereas i usually like to re-watch movies i really really enjoy a second time in this same calendar year and I won't be doing that for either of those but um yeah I think you're

right I think that's a good call should we should we any other losers you want to hit should we pivot out of losers enough with the negativity let's give people the highest honor that Hollywood has to offer shall we we're giving out Oscars on this podcast what honor is that did you know that yeah did you know that we were awarding best picture right now best picture me and you and Katie Rich

did this right did we do the last one we did yeah and we did this was the top 10 best picture power rankings The Substance

Sing Sing Blitz A Real Pain Dune Part 2 Wicked Part 1 Emilia Perez The Brutalist Conclave and Enora

I don't think this has changed a lot but it has changed a little what do you think? I don't think we should be embarrassed by it which is good news

I think it's 80% right in the films that should be on here me as well and you know then we just need to

shuffle the order a bit do you think anything has unseated Anora at number one? No. No. There's not a case for Wicked here? I mean, that would flatter my ego since I'm the one who argued Wicked onto the list last time and your Big Pick listeners were like, she's wrong. Well, you were right. You were 100% right at that time. I would definitely put it way higher than it is currently, but I don't know that I would put it as the front runner, mostly because of the John Chu situation.

Just meaning that you don't think he'll be recognized, so it's unlikely that it's going to win? Yeah, there's also the screenplay question. Do you think it's getting nominated for screenplay? Because if it's not getting nominated for screenplay, I think it's been over 20 years since we've had a Best Picture winner that didn't get nominated for screenplay. I'll tell you what, if it gets nominated for screenplay, you can watch me put it at number one in January. Yeah, for sure.

I don't think it's as strong as number one. I think it's like two or three, maybe three, but I don't think it's one yet. But I think it could definitely get there. The box office being a little soft internationally is interesting to me. It's done very well. It's obviously not done super well with the critics groups. Most of the critics groups, with the exception of NBR, are not really recognizing it. It's done very well with Critics' Choice Awards. My voting body, yeah.

It's probably going to do well with SAG. I guess that's probably it right globes and globes it's on it's on the afi list and the afi list is the strongest predictor we currently have in the awards i mean it's definitely getting nominated for best picture to me it's more about the strength like where in the totality and i don't know i mean i i think three is a good place to put it what comes know i mean i i think three is a good place to put it what comes in at number two behind anora is a good conversation for us to have though so let's do wicked at three and anora at one yeah i think that's about right now tell me what you think should be cut and let's see if we agree oh with love and respect to katie rich it's blitz and the substance i'll definitely give you blitz

blitz i think is gone blitz is definitely gone substance i'm willing to have a conversation about uh but blitz is definitely what do you think is going in where blitz was um a complete unknown which hadn't come out yet when we made this list. So wasn't in the conversation. And, um, I would suggest that a queen, a complete unknown is currently at number nine. Yeah,

maybe higher just because of a, it's such a traditional, I know we're, we're talking about the new Academy and not the old Academy, but it is such a traditional best picture winner type of thing. And be Timmy being like leaping to the front of the best actor race, I think is really pushing it up the list. The challenge for it is, it's possible it only has two nominations.

For Timmy and for Norton? Oh, for picture. Now Norton could get in, obviously. Norton could get in. But I don't think it has a chance at any below the line no I mean it's it's been shortlisted for sound musicals usually do well there yeah but it's also competing against Emilia Perez and Wicked in that respect plus you've got kind of bigger tent movies like Dune Part 2. You got Joker, Fully Ado competing there as well.

Another musical like... Okay, yeah. Let's leave it at nine, but I feel like it's going to go higher, but I'm happy to put it at nine right now. That's fine. It's on the list. The substance...

Let's table that for a minute. Is Conclave still at two? Conclave has not been the streaming icon that I thought it was going to be. Well, I think it's either Conclave or The Brutalist. I don't think The Brutalist is as strong at the moment. I think The Brutalist is still, I will say, just scoped out the Vista screenings.

It starts screening tonight, Thursday night, and I think has like a two or three week run in 70 at the Vista here in Los Angeles. And many of those screenings are already sold out, which is very exciting. Obviously, that's a honey trap for the boys. There's going to be a lot of the boys are showing out and the girls, of course, so the boys is a non-gender associated phrase. I was sure that you meant it in a non-gendered sense. Do you think it's going to be the intermission that breaks them? No, nothing will break anyone.

We're thriving. I think they can only really run it twice a day because it's three hours and 40 minutes of hang time. But it's missed in a couple spots. You know, like at the Spirits, it almost blanked. I think it only got one nomination at the Spirit Awards, which is just weird because it's like the definition of an independent film like it was financed by a multiple multiple number of organizations over a number of years and scooped up by a24 and that group was just like no which is so interesting so you know it's divisive it's divisive but isn't it like especially as we talk about the

international voting body uh at the academy isn't it the sort of exactly... We've been talking about this. What statement do we send when we call the brutalist the best picture of the year? We send a statement of art is the most important thing. Capitalism is crushing art. America is a disease is sort of some of the big takeaways. Capitalism is crushing art. America is a disease is sort of some of the big takeaways. I got news for you.

We don't do that anymore. That's not what CODA is. That's not what everything, everywhere all at once is. That's not even what Oppenheimer is. It's a bit what Oppenheimer is. Oppenheimer is like, look at all these movie stars.

Look at this master craftsman who made superhero movies who he didn't recognize when he was working in genre. You know, like, is it really the core messaging of Oppenheimer that got it best picture or is it the craft and the scale i think it's the the story of a capital g great capital m man uh that that and i mean that kind of in an ungendered sense this great figure sort of story and i kind of see that

the the brutalist stands in for that. That's a fair point. You're right in that respect. I do think that they get to that place in different ways. As our most cherished and most brutal of boys, where would you put the brutalist on the list? God,

if I could just have that on like a nameplate outside. The most brutal of boys. The most brutal of boys right here on a copper nameplate and I could just have that on like a nameplate. The most brutal of boys. The most brutal of boys right here on a copper nameplate. And I could record in that fashion for the rest of my life. I'd be so excited. I think it's at four. And I think it's in a kind of a battle with Amelia Perez in the sort of divisive knife fight.

We're putting Conclave at two then? I think Conclave at two and then maybe Brutalist at four and Amelia Perez. Amelia Perez at... Amelia Perez might be even stronger than that. I don't know if you saw the shortlist, but like six, showing up six times on the shortlist is a big deal.

That movie's going to get 11 Oscar nominations. wasn't two of it for, two of them were for Song, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yes, the shortlist was quite telling. I think Conclave, people keep bringing up as this sort of like

in terms of second place here second place in a lot of people's this the consensus second place on the ranked ballot in in that you know what i mean that it could that it's going to be mid-high on everyone's ballot and that could just push it higher than you uh than if we didn't do rigged voting um what else do you what do you want to put next we've got four slots left now 10 8 7 and 6 i think sing sing is way higher than it used to be especially as we're talking about clarence and coleman and screenplay uh all in conversation I think you're right I think Sing Sing is at six we'll see what that January reissue does for it but you know news of the academy screenings has been very warm we know we know that I'm in the tank for Sing Sing

but I I feel like I'm being clear-eyed here did you see that um the Sing Sing account used your commentary to our it's our commentary our commentary yes I did see that the SingSing account used your commentary to post for it? Our commentary, yeah. Our commentary. Yes, I did see that. So great to make marketing materials with you as always, Joanna. I love to do unpaid promo. That's my whole fucking life at this point.

Gosh, so that leaves us with potential contenders. I'll give you all the contenders right now. Last time around, The Substance Bl Blitz, and A Real Pain, and Dune Part 2 filled out our list. I believe Dune 2 is still competing. I believe A Real Pain is still competing. I have my doubts about The Substance. I'm a little iffy on A Real Pain at this point.

Just a little bit. Well, that's why I think it should go. I think that's why you need to bump a complete unknown up and put a real pain lower on the list oh okay so you think a complete unknown is at eight a real pain is at nine yeah and then we have to figure out what 10 is yes and so part two at seven and you would put part two at seven i think that's right dune Part 2 is a little bit shaky as well right now. Yes. Denis, I don't think

is getting into director at the moment. I agree with you. That's fucked up. It is fucked up, but I guess we're all just believing the narrative that we're saving it

for Dune Messiah. Just keep your powder dry for Dune Messiah, I guess, is what's happening. Just really sucks. Okay, so let's talk about number 10, the guess, is what's happening. Just really sucks. Okay, so let's talk about number 10, the coveted number 10 slot. This is very challenging.

There's quite a few films that could make it here. We had The Substance last time, but also contending, I suppose, Gladiator 2, September 5, Nickel Boys, The Room Next Door, The Wild Robot, The Seed of the Sacred Fig, All We Imagine as Light, Challengers, and Nosferatu. Now, as an elegant throw to my conversation with Rommel Ross, I will make the case for Nickel Boys. I was going to, you don't have to make the case. I was going to agree with you and I was not intending to pander to your guest, but I genuinely think it's Nickel Boys.

But make the case. It is a movie that I think for folks who work in craft and in writing will be incredibly impressed by the decisions that are made. I think Rommel has a chance in director because of the decisions he's made. That being said, for the body at large, I think it's going to be

a very challenging watch. I moderated a conversation with Rommel and Ingenue Ellis-Taylor over the weekend at the Arrow Theater in Santa Monica, and people were locked in, locked in. I will also say Anjanew and Rommel are great advocates for the movie. So smart, so charming. The Rommel interview is my favorite of the year. So I think on the strength of that, plus that this is the movie that MGM, Amazon is pushing hardest, I feel like it's going to get there. If you told me it was September 5,

or you told me it was at Seat of the Sacred Fig, I wouldn't be shocked. I wouldn't be shocked. But it feels like Nickel Boys to me right now. But it's probably not going to be Challengers. And I just want to say it a couple times because people were so bummed that we didn't even talk about about it last time and i agree i think it i think challengers belongs

on this list what i would bump for it i couldn't tell you but like i do believe in terms of long lasting impact challengers is a really important uh and wonderful film that came out this year i think people have just forgotten and i don't i couldn't tell you why um i think it's just a little too pop to be candid a little it seems a little too airy and like i think i think i'm not calling it that i think that's how people perceive it i feel like queer sort of split the focus you know what i mean like i just anyway um but i think that Nickel Boys as the focus of the Amazon campaign and as like a formal, an exercise in form has really excited a lot of people, you know, in terms of the big swings that Rommel in in the construction of the story so i think i think people really want to reward it as uh an attempt at an attempt makes it sound unsuccessful but what i just mean is like yeah we tried something we really tried something with this movie and uh has a great performances

in it and yeah i definitely think it's on the list okay and this list like I don't want to be unimaginative but this is the AFI list but the AFI list is is our best bellwether so I'm not mad that we're in lockstep with it many pundits

myself included when I saw the AFI list were like this is it this is the best picture and that's that's where I stand at the moment too

especially because now we've seen everything. There isn't anything I haven't seen that has been competing here. So let's run it down quickly and then we'll exit this chat, Joe. At number 10, Nickel Boys. At number nine, A Real Pain.

At number eight, A Complete Unknown. At number seven, Dune Part Two. At number six, Sing Sing. At number five, Emilia Perez. At number four, The Brutalist. At number three, Wicked. At number five, Emilia Perez. At number four, The Brutalist. At number three, Wicked. At number two, Conclave. And still holding at number one,

can it go the distance? Until Wicked gets that screenplay nomination. Nora is sitting at number one. Until, until, until. Joanna, thank you. You're just the best. Oh, you're just the best. Thanks for having me.

Great chatting with you. Let's now go to my conversation with Rommel Ross. Three, two, one. So happy to have Rommel Ross here. Your second feature film, your first scripted feature. I've read quite a bit about you but I also feel like there's a lot I don't know because I feel like you had a full life

before you became a filmmaker I know you were a college basketball player at Georgetown and then what happened? what led you to filmmaking? am I allowed to talk while you're talking? like could you say that? and I'm like yeah cool yeah cut me off

I don't want't obviously I respect you this is a conversation yeah but like stealing the mic is not cool when like the mic is your thing I want you to feel like we're chatting not like I'm drilling you with questions yeah yeah so we're not it's not a volley we're like tugging for the ball productively for people to watch no this is more of the triangle offense yeah cool cool. I like a good Phil Jackson reference. I, yeah, I don't know. When I started to make photos and become interested in film

around my senior year, my fifth year at Georgetown. And then when I started to pursue it as a true desire, vocation, maybe. It was funny. I look back at my life and I'm like, oh, maybe I've always been this person that I am now, but maybe it's latent or maybe it was transferred through sports. But to me, it was quite a natural transition given the way that the camera deals with space

and time and predictability and the future and the way in which you deal with those same things as a basketball player, specifically a point guard in which you're dealing with space and time and relativity. So when you use the word vocation, so were you thinking when you were taking photographs, this is going to be my job? Like this is a way I'm going to make money in my career? Or was it just this is something that helps me better understand myself, something I feel natural doing. And so I'm just going to pursue it as like a creative act. Like, do you see those two things as connected? Yeah, I see them as separate, completely separate.

And I tried to keep them separate after, I think, recognizing some of the pitfalls of having work and creative pursuits too tightly aligned with all the industries which are necessary to, one could say, to support them. And maybe I'm using vocation wrong. I was trying to use vocation in terms of a sort of calling. But I think vocation has more to do with career than obviously. Is it a vocation?

Is that the one that's... That sounds right, but you went to Georgetown and I didn't. Well, I didn't read much in high school. I was a scholarship basketball player and found the language quite late in life, let's say. I think avocation sounds right. And yet, like, it did become your career eventually. Yeah.

So how did that evolve? Because it's a career in the sense that I do make money from it and I do have the opportunity to support my life. But I teach full-time at a university and that's my one could say bread and butter I don't have to make art and make films I do that separately intentionally not tied to money so that I can experiment or you know follow follow my own sensibility without being too much guided too much by the powers that be what so what led to that what led to you deciding that you wanted to teach, you teach,

uh, college. So what, what went into that decision-making? Well, I think I've, I've always taught, I coached basketball. Um, and I immediately, you know, worked for the state department and taught kind of American values and nutritional health around the world while using basketball as a sort of connection point for those abroad. I think, you know, the secret aim of this Culture Connect program through the State Department was to like sort of outsource American values and to like, you know, boost America's image. But simultaneously...

You were a propagandist. Oh, I was. And I can be honest, I enjoyed it. You know, but simultaneously. You were a propagandist. Oh, I was. And I'm going to be honest, I enjoyed it. You know, just kidding. But then I started to, I worked in Northern Ireland and I played professional basketball there, which is cool. But I also worked for an organization that was using basketball to bridge social divides and conflict in regions.

So we would go into a Catholic school and a Protestant school and bring the kids together with sports. And I really enjoyed that tie to youth. So I went to Alabama and was teaching there. And so it just kind of became natural to be involved with those who are learning, you know? And so I had an opportunity when I graduated from RISD's MFA program in photography to teach at Brown. And I had so much teaching across so many different places that I think they were attracted to a non-academic, traditionally academic way of communicating information. Interesting. So that time you spent in Alabama, is that directly what led to Hill County? Oh, yeah, for sure. For sure.

I went there randomly with a friend and for a week to teach a photography course. Job opened up in a youth bill program, Department of Labor funded program, and was already hitting the point where I was getting a bit frustrated with my pursuits as a photojournalist, with my pursuits as a sort of fashion photographer, with my pursuits as a photo illustratorist, with my pursuits as a sort of fashion photographer, with my pursuits as a photo illustrator photographer, like sort of all of the individual genres of photography, like each one kind of wasn't doing it for me. In what way? Like creatively? Yeah. It's like, I don't want to say they became, they didn't become easy, but they just, they became dead

ends. Like they, they had ceilings of communication to me. And then you were just saying the same thing in different ways. And then I was kind of understanding myself as I think under understanding myself as a person in, as a reflection of society and being in the historic South for people of color, I'd argue there's no better place to be in dialogue with whatever the black diaspora is in the U.S. And so conceptual photography and drawing from all of these other genres just sort of collapsed into me photographing there. I don't know. It's never... I guess there is a light bulb moment.

I love the cartoon light bulb. It's probably the most accurate illustration of human experience where you're just like, wait, there's something new illuminated. I had one of those moments when I'm photographing. And I think I understand something about black visuality as general as that is, which is something that went something along the lines of almost all images I've seen of people of color seem to be utilitarian. They have like a very strict purpose and they seem to be, uh, in conversation with, uh, historical dialogue and requires an analysis that is not multifaceted.

And while that's general to me, I was like, I don't, I haven't seen images of people of color in which there's three distinct modes of narrative analysis in which none of them are true, but all of them are true. And to me, that's like a way of sort of liberating black people from the tyranny of the camera. And so with that sort of like photographic revelation that I had, I also wondered in terms of film, like, what does that look like? And is there a version of that that is more time based? based so as you're making hail county which goes on to be like incredibly acclaimed and probably

much more widely seen than you would have expected as you were my god yes yeah um and so it's this fascinating i guess serendipitous and hard-earned achievement are is there any part of you that is thinking like i'm gonna make scripted feature films very soon? Like, was that on the roadmap for you in any way? No, it wasn't. Though, I've always wanted to make films, and I was always interested in film. You know, I grew up in, like, a sort of fight club and a Shawshank Redemption and just, like, hardcore classics that are astounding, but very commercial. And then, as mentioned, like, once I start to, like, look into myself, my relationship to it, I start to sort of develop ideas that are a little bit more on the periphery of what's

mainstream. And so I think my desire to actually participate in that economy just became impractical given the way I wanted to experiment with things. And, you know, the stuff that I made become became very self-satisfactory. And if you're working at that scale, self-satisfactory is not necessarily the right path. So never really thought about it. After Hell County, I just knew that I had things I was interested in and was trying to put myself in a position through teaching and other means through grants to be able to like pursue these really individual interests. So then what happens? Like what happens to your life and work after Hell County? Obviously, many more people know about you.

Are you doing like the water bottle tour in Hollywood? Like what actually happened to your life? Yeah, well, my life for a short period of time was like very fast paced in terms of, you know, promoting the film and sharing the ideas. The film lends itself to film studies and lends itself to the history of documentary and the history of documentary photography. And so a lot of speaking at universities and talking with students who are interested a lot in research, but are also just interested in ethnography and anthropology and how to ethically engage with the community. But I think the true turning point was halfway through the process of Hale County, I met

a woman named Jocelyn Barnes, who was also a co-writer on Nickel Boys and a producer. And she was one of the only people, and there were a couple people, but like really kind of understood and was interested in my ideas. And we kind of, you know, continued. We started to collaborate on Hell County. But she opened my world up, honestly, to kind of independent film. I knew of independent film in quotation marks as a thing because I kind of got my film education through the RISD library. I would just go and like look at titles I liked

and then try to watch two films a day. And then you come across random things. They're not collecting the most box office things. It's a lot of like really solid idiosyncratic stuff. And she, you know, works, Jocelyn that is, works with like Lucretia Martel and Apichapongwera Sethakol, butchering his name. And they're people who have really specific means of making,

but yet they found ways to garner the support to make really big things. And so that actually kind of shifted the space and also the reception of Hill County, because, you know, really small team. It was like, you know, myself, Robert Rob Moss, Maya Krinsky, Jocelyn, and a woman named Sue Kim. We finished the film in obscurity. You know, we had a couple of grants, but not many people knew about us. And we were like, we really like this. We're unsure if anyone will, like legitimately unsure. I'm submitting to Sundance. I'm asking Rob Moss. He's a brilliant filmmaker himself.

He teaches at Harvard. He was like, Rommel, I don't want you to get your hopes up. You know, like the film's good. Like I like it, but like these films don't, they don't get into these festivals because the festivals are beholden to the audience

and all these other things. And the programmers may like it, but can that fill the seats, you know? And he's saying this as an independent filmmaker. He's not making commercial films, but he's just trying to manage my expectations. And so we genuinely thought that the film would be something that was like on the library shelf inside the RISD library that in 10 years, someone comes across and it gives them something to work with inspiration wise or or visual-wise and affects them. And then maybe someone will know about it later in life.

So then why do you think that didn't happen? Why do you think it did get programmed at those festivals? It did get awards attention. From your perspective, obviously you're deep inside of it. You made it. But why did it click? Well, I'd say there's a couple reasons. I think the practical reason, the traceable reason,

is that Sundance programmed camera person, KJ's, Kirsten Johnson's camera person the year before in New Frontier. Now, that film was radical in its consolidation of documentary footage, edited by Nels Bangerter, amazing editor. They wanted to put that in the main competition, but they didn't think that people were ready for it. So they put it in new frontier and it kills amazing film. So then my film comes along and then they're like,

well, maybe this is the film that we can put into the competition. And so, um, and I'm, I'm kind of unsure. I mean, I know like the Ross brothers made a film,

like a zip code film that is similar only because there's not many examples of unsure. I mean, I know like the Ross Brothers made a film, like a zip code film that is similar only because there's not many examples of like the sort of longitudinal collage of moments to make a sort of singular piece. And I don't know if, I think it made it, I'm unsure if it made it into Sundance, but that's almost a predecessor to Camera Person. Was it Chupitalis or was it?

No, no, it was like three, four, six, seven, nine. Oh, yeah, yeah, right. It was the numbers. I got you, okay. It was like three, four, six, seven, nine. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. It was the numbers. Okay. And so if like those who are interested, you can kind of trace the lineage of how films get to places and how they're accepted. Like Hell County seems to be an anomaly,

but it's on the back of like many other films that like chipped away at people's expectations of a film to do a certain thing and then chipped away again. And then, and I'm sure that there are films that are in places because the Hale County was able to break through and now people are able to take more risk on these sort of poetic views of the world. I think that's really right. I think everything is operating on this kind of continuum and sometimes it's invisible, but yeah, totally that there were some people who were kind of

kicking in doors very slowly so that certain things can come through. It's interesting, too, that you cite that Jocelyn had worked with Apichapong and Lucretia Martel because I feel like Nickel Boys is really in the tradition of those kinds of films. These kind of durational, deep, kind of probing stories, but that don't follow the conventional rhythms of certainly American movie storytelling. So I'm fascinated by this movie. I really like Nickel Boys a lot. What led to making the decision then to try to adapt a work of fiction after making a documentary? Well, the idea to do it wasn't mine. I don't typically, like I don't read a book and i'm like i'd make a great

film maybe maybe i should adapt it like i don't think that way you know um i we got a call jocelyn got a call from uh dd gardner and jeremy kleiner from plan b that they wanted to chat uh with me we both go um have a long conversation goes away over time um they ask if i if i read nickel boys um ask if i was interested in adapting it i wasn't so much interested i took the meeting because dd um and i once hell county came out i've gotten asked to make tons of films and i'm not i don't see my i'm like i'm not a filmmaker in that sense you know um so this was along those lines but dd made tree of life and tree of life is i think just it's one of my load load star or whatever you can tell watching nickel boys there's a couple of moments where i was like oh man okay

i know that exact perspective from that character's eyes is yes okay that's so many times and it's it's inexhaustible to me it's like the everything the ambition the aesthetic the the risk the payoffs the non-payoffs all of it works to me um and so i i told josh that i definitely didn't want to make a film unless i had creative control obviously and because gd had made that film, I was like, maybe. No one makes that film. You know, like you realize, talking to Jomo, who's the DP,

who's made many films and made many commercials, he says a thing, he's like, most people can't make the decisions to make the films that they love. Because all of those decisions are antithetical to the way in which we're taught to participate in the industry you know which is pretty eye-opening um it's hard to take those risks because you're putting your career on the line in some to some degree so the fact that Didi had made Tree of Life was you know worthy of the

conversation and then just meeting those two they seemed to just be open to something fresh. They loved Hell County. And it appeared to be a match made in heaven. And then from there, it started to develop. Because you're not pursuing your career the way that other young filmmakers are, do you feel then that you are more able to take those risks that you were told

most filmmakers can't take? Because you're like, I have a teaching job. I just keep making documentaries. I can shoot is that so do you feel safer in that way I think that's my cheat code yeah but it doesn't work for everyone and I feel bad like genuinely almost like I'm misleading people you know like the rich person that's like you can make money all you gotta do is in the it's easy to say that when you're rich yeah take a chance why not yeah it worked for you, bro.

But like, I don't have the same circumstances as you. Yeah. Like, I think because my, my logic or my reasoning as to how I got to where I am is basketball was so important to me. I,

I was supposed to go to the league. I was on track, like all the stuff, so many injuries. I've always felt like photography, art and filmmaking and writing are like a second life and and I know the mistakes that I've made though injuries set me back in basketball I know the the sort of intellectual mistakes I made and I take photography and art

as something that's way more spiritual and way more. I just have a different relationship to it. Like there's no, I don't really compromise. I'm not in it for, I don't want to go to the NBA for in terms of film. That's not my interest. Like I'm trying, I'm like trying to fill the void that was produced when I failed at basketball. Wasn't my fault. And like my mom died around the same time.

So it was like a double huge gaping hole in me um and i don't know if it's fillable but that's what the that's what the craft or that's what the art is doing for me so i'm just not interested genuinely not interested in anything that isn't working on that in in that space you're very evolved i gotta say like most people don't have that like willing willing to accept um their own definition of success and not others i think is something that is super complicated and i think the same goes for this movie which i saw in a festival setting and i would say half the people i talked to were like i've never seen anything like it it blew me away and then the

other half were like i've never seen anything like it i didn't get it yeah and so you really have this very rigorous approach to telling this story in a way that despite even being inspired by something like Tree of Life, like I've not really ever seen a movie like this. I've not seen a movie that uses first person in this particular way that has like a kind of fungibility with it, but also sticks to its own rules. Can you just talk about developing the idea of shooting the movie this way? And then maybe also some of the practical consequences and upsides of shooting this way? We're going to go conceptual first. Okay.

And I'm going to forget your question. Okay. I'll come back to it. I've wanted, I thought about this one in particular as to why I make images in the way I do. And the whatever voice that people say that I have with art and with language as it relates to the art that I make is that I think, and this is a huge general statement, like the history of people making work is so deeply tied to their identity that it's invisible. And so the easiest comparison is just music. You think about when people get instruments and they're learning how to play and they're from an Anglo background, they're doing classical stuff, they're doing whatever. You give it to a black person who

has had a completely different experience in the same culture. And then you have something like jazz, which is mind blowing, right? Like how can you use that same thing that we've been using for hundreds of years and just do something so wild? Because like the way that that person has been forced to relate to the world channeled through their instrument produces different use. And so coming, looking at film and photography, I I like I don't believe in the way in which the camera has been used historically it just doesn't work for me I just don't I don't understand why people use it that way it's confusing to me but when you were watching Fight Club or Shawshank two movies that you cited did you also feel that way did you feel like this isn't right like this should be different no but I't, I wasn't self-interested

spiritually. I wasn't, I wasn't trying to find myself. There was no, there was no internal gaze at all. It was all external. I was, I was, I was programmed. I was working in American culture, which is how we are. And some could argue how we need to to be to have this this experiment go on that's another conversation but um i'd never looked back at myself and the loss the two losses in my life just forced reflection and that kind of opens up a sort of like a sort of just you're more disappointed with what you took for granted you know yeah And so coming to use the camera for this film in POV, which I say, and which we say for people to understand it, but we actually called it on set Synthiet Perspective because POV is not what we're doing. POV is action cam, it's GoPro, it's Lady in the Lake,

it's Enter the Void. Synthiet Perspective is using the camera as an organ it's using the camera as a way to align the audience's perceptual encounter with the film world with the characters which is one that is not the same as the objectivity that is used in POV or the traditional objectivity of the camera while having subjective moments in many different ways across many different films in many different genres. So when you use the word organ, what do you specifically mean by that? Meaning like, I like to call it observational logic.

And it's kind of taken from observational footage or using the camera observationally in documentary space. But observational logic is, to me, an issue with shooting at 24 millimeters or 17 millimeters and having the whole thing be clear and in focus is a person's eye gets to wander the frame, right? But that's a good thing because human beings can see at that scale. But the thing is that without trying to be one-to-one with human vision, human beings, our attention is always focused within there. And having everything clear and

allowing the audience to look around undermines our sensorial, perceptive attention moment. So if you get a narrow lens and you shoot really shallow and you use the camera in a way that mimics the attention of consciousness then to me that's observational logic you're not observing but you're using the logic of observation in a human um and that's a different way of using the camera and i do that in hill county which was the i use as a proof of concept when trying when like talking to the producers and those about the film uh it it film. It is stupid to say stuff like revolutionary, but as I was watching the film, I think I had a similar experience

as some other people I saw it with, which is in the first act of the movie, it takes a moment to adjust. It takes a moment to understand, and I think even more so accept, that you have broken a rule, an expectation for how you tell a story. But if you accept it,

then it kind of rewires your brain for what all movies should be. You got to accept it though. You have to. That's the thing. Yeah. It's hard for people to accept because if you accept this, you have to look at yourself differently. I think because you're,

you're not looking from you anymore. Right. But the camera, what the camera always does is it allows you to maintain a distance. But, and it's not even that what we're doing in Nickel Boys

is also not a distance. It's just one less level of abstraction and adjacent. So it's just a little bit different. So, so I mean, that was my exact experience

was I found that it was literally distancing at first and then the opposite afterwards. It was, it was like the, the portal to empathy

as soon as you accept it yeah but that's a really um it's a it's a heady and bold choice like did you find was anybody like pushing back on this where they like don't do this it's never gonna work like what what are the conversations like because you're obviously you're working with um you know plan b is very accepting of creative people and support creative people historically, but still. But this is the thing. No one could make the film but them. I didn't know that until we're in the process.

And then I see them calling on others to trust them. Don't worry about it. We got it. You know what I mean? I was talking to Muncher, who was about the sort of powerhouse of folks that we had we had Alana Mayo at Orion Jeremy Didi and Jocelyn and and David Levine um from Anonymous Content and like it's gonna be hard to put another collection of people if they're behind the same idea who's gonna say no to all of them,

you know? And they like, you know, they, they fought for the film at all. And they didn't have to do much fighting. Like they're the ones that are in control. And so they,

yeah, I don't think the film could have been ushered into, into pre-production to production and through production with all the conversations we had with anyone else, because I don't know if they'd be willing to, like I said, make the decisions to make the thing possible. What about the actual physical production? Because, you know, actors are not necessarily trained to perform in this way. I don't know what your, if your crew had worked on things that had, you know, similarly been done this way, but I imagine like the performance style has got to

be different. You know, if you're performing to the camera in that specific way, like were there hiccups? Was it hard to get people to kind of get on board with this strategy? It wasn't hard to have people get on board. I think in general, just the language of the production was different. And the language of, yeah, the language of the film is so specific to itself that everyone just had to come in and learn at the same time. I'd never directed actors in this sense before I directed in other ways. Um, I had really experienced, uh, um, production heads though. I had like the best, uh, AD in the game, James Rock, you know, we had Nora in production, design, Hidjomo, amazing DP. And I can name every single person,

but they're experienced in getting the job done. And I know what the images should look like. I know what it should, around what it should feel like. And then the rest is kind of everyone always being honest with if something isn't working or isn't working and trying to honestly trying to pick out like a lot of the small ways that can undermine the performance. Like, like we had a very specific point in the camera in which we wanted the actors to look. Sometimes they would forget and look three inches to the right or left because they've never been asked to do

this before that destroys the shot yeah because the person is looking past the person and those subtle things are easy to miss because we're worried about so many other things um like we you know we had a manifesto that myself jomo and sam um sam was a uh the other operator, would read and one of the lines on it was something along the lines of, the camera has, there are no scenes, there's no direction for the camera to face, there are no, essentially that it's a single point perspective in which no action is oriented in any direction. The camera as the character finds what the world will be and the world exists before. And so that's really hard to design. That's really hard to, you know, most of the actors in the scenes are not even on camera

because the character's eyes never get to them. But they're vital for the scene to feel alive so that you just sense that off screen something is happening. Like those types of things were the difficult because we didn't get to rehearse. You don't get to rehearse that. We don't called to be off of the labor duty, I want you to look into the camera as if you're looking at Elwood, who now you're pissed off that he doesn't have to work as hard as you anymore. Like, they've all been trained never to look into the camera, but now we need them to look into the camera as if they're looking at the character so that the camera, if people glance

around a little bit, they actually feel like they're still that center, you know? And those things, we learned that on set. Oh yeah, we actually need people to be looking. We need more movement over here because it actually feels empty. And that's the kind of learning process that everyone was open to. I want to ask you about the moments when you're not using that strategy. There's one that is sort of a version of that, which is that the film goes out of its way to not shy away from

the violence that is incurred upon the characters in the story, but it's not explicit about showing that violence. It feels like a very purposeful choice, but it's unmistakable that something awful is happening while you're doing that.

But that, in a way, seems to almost be like a comment on the comment that you're making by seeing the world through these characters' eyes. I was wondering if you could talk about that decision a little bit.

Yeah. I think it emerges from, you know, like, Hell County is a responsive film. I kind of pseudo think that almost all films that are, for lack of a better word, don't even know why I'm saying this,

black films are responsive films. They're responding to the history of cinema and the history of photography, right? The problem that it has been. The technology of racism, I say. And so looking, like watching people suffer is something that has been happening in cinema over time. I'd say it's been a predominant, a dominant narrative for people of color, specifically American film history. And so one has to wonder how that produces our version of a person, how that changes our, or ignores or desensitize our relationship to seeing those people suffer. But also to me, it doesn't seem

right or real and not that cinema is right or real. I think people think that it is right or real when in fact this sort of monocular consolidation of space is probably one of the most dangerous things that's happened to our brains as it relates to images human beings consciousness time space i'm very guilty of this of believing that this is how things are yeah yeah i watch a lot of movies yeah it's true it's so dangerous like um what is it doing to our brains like to look at the world photographically to say whoa that's photographic or that's cinematic that's not good That's not a good way to see the world. Well, it depends on what you're looking at

or what you're trying to portray. True, true. So depending on the subject matter, in this case, I think I felt like I understood your intention. But like we were walking down the street and something happens and we're like, whoa, that was photographic. That means we see the world as photographs.

What else does that mean? I don't know. I'm not smart enough, but I don't think that it's talked about enough. This is worse than it's ever been though. Yeah. Because we have phones in our pocket that allow us to all feel

like we can make cinema magic. It's complicated. It's so true. But what about, so then there's a related matter, which is- Oh, but wait, but wait, but wait. Let me, sorry.

No, no. I just remembered what you asked. And I wanted to finish because when we're thinking about trauma in its variety of forms, one has to wonder, having gone through traumatic moments ourselves, what one looks at during those moments. We're used to watching people go through it. We see the big picture.

But I don't know, when I broke my bones and had my shoulders sticking out and all these things, I'm not looking at my shoulder, like, damn, that's traumatic. I'm like looking up at the ceiling, like, Oh God, I don't want to look to my left. And like, I'm looking like at the, at like the wind on the thing being like, don't think about your shoulder. Don't think about your shoulder. And so taking that into, into a film in which like a moment in which someone's being, um, violence is being enacted on them. Like what's their experience of it? We, I believe that we focus from my experience, we focus in on details, which become the sort of icon of the moment. Um, and then we go back into the world. And so just trying to, one, respond to it being overly visualized in the past, but also just try to be more realistic. It's interesting. So I feel like the film style

is operating on this slipstream of using both maybe inspirations from directors like Malick, but then also taking the tools that you have learned as a documentarian and filtering them into narrative feature filmmaking so there are moments where we see found documents or we hear something or there's like abstractions there's this idea of this the the sky and the stars there we see uh alligators you know like and it's very metaphorical choices at times these are really also really bold strokes in an adaptation of a novel yeah um you don't have to like address every single one of them but the the documentary elements in particular i found interesting in the way that you uh included them in the telling of the story

so what goes into making those decisions when do you think this is the right time to show us this headline from this story or this image this historical image that is referencing something that truly happened as opposed to the narrative world that we're living inside of? Yeah, I think I love the question. It was an intuitive process for Joss and myself, because as you're mentioning, we have our ties in nonfiction. But I think in particular, the film in its first form was an edit of the film in images and camera movement. The final film, if you compare those two, they're not far apart.

80% overlap. You know, like in the edit, you have to use what works. And just because you said archival image goes here doesn't mean that it would go there if it's not functioning. But the idea was always, specifically for Coulson's narrative, it's so tied to the real world

and the way in which dramatic narratives traditionally exist in this rarefied space of cinema makes it feel, in the cinematic otherworldly sense where we leave and it was something we experienced in the theater and it's not something that we would encounter in the world. And when I look at the Nickel Boy story as it ties to the Dozier School for Boys, the reason why the Dozier School for Boys existed in Florida, North Florida, boys being murdered. And the reason why Coulson's novel existed is partly because of America's visual constitution. They're inextricable.

You can't treat black boys the way that they did at the Dozier School for Boys without the language of photography pushing forth a stereotypical idea of black folks in the late 1800s in the early 1900s in the history of the southern documentary photography they're inextricable and so how do you not allow um how do you remind people that colson's narrative is not only based on an actual school but that actual school is part of a system of visualization that still exists today and should not be separated from the production aesthetics of high-quality film. Do you see making the movie as breaking and reconstituting that visual history or just representing it or somewhere in between? I hope it's doing five versions of that. I think that it is because I think that that reminder isn't often done.

I think that it's not useful for the industry always to have people have to reflect on the complicity of this story and the way in which their community has been redlined, you know, or have to think about the documentary images, the nonfiction images from the Black family archives of the 70s and 80s, and that these joyful boys under a Christmas tree or jumping outside could be a dozer boy or might be their neighbor who had, like, I don't think that those those direct ties making someone emotionally not intellectually because you can read this in in in like a short story or

in a New York Times piece but to have it happen through images is just a different relationship to the brain I don't think that that's normal when I ask you ask you about one scene. There's a scene that takes place in the future in a bar. It's an amazing, incredible... Unbelievable, right? I mean, you made it. I mean, I made it with a whole bunch of people.

But also, watching this shit unfold in real life, everyone, everyone... See, the actors are like doing their thing. There's not no one that's in that bar that is not like,

oh my God, this is... Isn't this unbelievable unbelievable it's not just me you know when you're watching a movie and you're you're like this movie is having a moment right yeah you know it's obviously it's it's incredibly a pained sequence and it is very revelatory about what's in the story and what the story has been about and who these characters are um but i haven't read the novel so i don't know even how to compare what Coulson wrote and maybe how some of these things are revealed in the storytelling but I was just hoping you could

maybe talk to me a little bit about staging that sequence and like why it's in the place that it is for how you wanted to tell the story yeah well that was a centerpiece although it's not in the middle a centerpiece scene there are a couple

and as you know the film is very rhythmic and very musical in its use of images and so it like ebbs and flows and it doesn't doesn't sit very often um though it does sit maybe more than i'm i'm giving it credit to in this moment that but that sequence is almost stationary. Yeah, true. True, that's true. It probably is the longest one as well. Yeah, what to say? That was the one that... There are a couple of things where we're like, if we can...

Things that we knew we had to nail, or had to do 80%. If we can do... If we can nail this, we're like, if we can get Anjanou... Anjanou's our first. If we can get Anjanou to be Hattie, if we can nail the chicky peep bar scene, if we can, um, integrate the archival as imagined so that it it's abrupt, but it's not, it's, you don't question it in the way in which

you would when things have a little bit of a seam in between them, then we think that the movie can work. This one in particular, because it does the thing that everyone experiences in life, which is running into someone that you knew from the past and having to reconcile the gap of information between them, remembering their face as they are younger, and they're being a sort of distance between who you are, who you want to be, and what each of you think of each other.

Just that really complicated... And then in the context of the dojo school for boys is really profound because there's so much trauma that is spoken but never really experienced or seen in the film um we just knew it just had so much power so much power but and we had to we had to do it right and craig tate is i mean david's in that scene uh and i don't want to give it away for people who haven't seen it to know how it's shot and whatnot. But what a blessing, if that's the right word, a secular blessing for Craig Tate to have been. He was actually cast very late and blew everybody out of the water. I've never experienced anything in cinema.

This is a wonder. The entire film is conceived as wonders. This is like a 15-minute, 20-minute take. And just, I don't know. There's nothing realer. There was nothing. He was that. As I was watching it, I was like, okay,

we are truly having a moment. So congrats on that. It's really great. One last question. I love that Ethiopian jazz record at the end of the song. And I was wondering why you chose that song.

Because of what you felt. Yeah. Yeah. The film was very, very, very, very, very conceived.

You know? I say it's similar to Hell County because people look at Hell County and I remember some of the early comments like, whoa, it was just so random. The way that this thing, you put this here, then that was there. And I was like, yeah, random. This is just, it's a collage. That's all that it is.

It's a big, long montage. There's nothing strategic about any of it yeah and I almost think that I would like mockingly say that and hope that they knew I was joking

but also like come on man if you were concerned about those comments you will also get them about Ditto Boys you know you gotta brace yourself

for some of that yeah the montage I made a proof of concept of that montage before we wrote the script because Joss and I were trying to figure out if the like how to how to build this thing out we needed something to get to you know and

I heard I heard that song and it just you know logged itself as an earworm as some people say it lodged itself in my head and just never forgot it. And then once I read the Nickel Boy script, I was like, if I make this movie, I know how it ends. It ends with this wild flood of psychic images from one of these characters. And this is the song. And so many conversations about, well, what about this song?

What about this song? From all the people who are rightfully stress testing the idea, right? It's not a song that you would normally put at the end of a film that's dealing with this content or a film that even looks like this because it's just not it. But the dissonance works so well. Yeah. It's a great choice. Yeah.

Ramel, this has been great. We end every episode of this show by asking filmmakers what's the last great thing they've seen. Have you seen anything good lately? Wow, I've seen so many good things. I'm going to say the thing that I watch the most

and I've seen the most which people are going to be like I can't believe you said that. La Jetée. Chris Marker's La Jetée. Wow, that seems to be an inspiration on your work. Yeah.

It's only 30 minutes long or so, but, you know, I probably watch it once a month. Do you remember when you first saw it? This is Chris Marker's documentary, sort of. Yeah, exactly. Whatever it is.

When did I see that first? I think it was probably grad school. was like 32 33 yeah it just like one of the pieces where you watch it and you're like oh i understand something different about the world and this i don't know how how he does it but this form and all of its concentric pieces pieces is a proxy for whatever it is. It gives you access to something else. And so I'm sorry I couldn't say anything more contemporary, but I have my go-tos, and that's just one of them. That's a great recommendation. Thank you so much for doing the show, Ramel.

Yeah, no, thank you. Thank you. Thank you to Ramel Ross. Thank you to Joannaommel Ross. Thank you to Joanna Robinson. Thanks to Jack Sanders. Thanks to our producer Bobby Wagner for his work on today's episode. Next week, it is time for Bob Dylan. It's time for Timothee Chalamet. It's time for a complete unknown.

Is it time for a meltdown from yours truly? Tune in and find out. We'll see you then.