The Big Picture - Best Picture Power Rankings and Wes Anderson’s Oscar Chances

Episode Date: October 10, 2023

Sean and Amanda discuss the quartet of Wes Anderson short films that dropped on Netflix and the trend of established auteurs exploring the short film genre (1:00). Then, they run through a long list of the films they think have a chance at getting a Best Picture nomination at the Oscars and rank the 10 they think are most likely to garner that nomination (35:00). Finally, Sean is joined by Grant Singer to discuss his new crime thriller, ‘Reptile’ (1:21:00). Hosts: Sean Fennessey and Amanda Dobbins Guest: Grant Singer Senior Producer: Bobby Wagner Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hi, this is Ben Lindberg and Jessica Clemons, and we are the hosts of Button Mash, The Ringer's video game podcast on The Ringerverse feed. We are in the midst of the biggest blockbuster gaming month either of us can recall. We're talking about Spider-Man 2, Super Mario Bros, Alan Wake, Five Nights at Freddy's, Assassin's Creed Mirage. We will have our hands full. You can have your ears full with us talking about these wonderful video games on The ringer verse feed weekly throughout this month on spotify or wherever you get your podcasts get groceries delivered across the gta from real canadian superstore with pc express shop online for super prices and super savings try it today and get up to 75

in pc optimum points visit superstore.ca to get started. I'm Sean Fennessey. I'm Amanda Dobbins. And this is The Big Picture, a conversation show about shorts and longs. Later in this episode, I'll be joined by Grant Singer, the writer-director of the new Netflix streaming hit Reptile. It's a brooding crime thriller that reminded me quite a bit of the 1990s. Singer rose through the ranks, much like my heroes from the 1990s,

of music videos before directing this debut. We had an interesting chat that I hope you'll stick around for. But first, Amanda and I are going to update our Best Picture Power Rankings and the Oscars, including a wave of short films from luminaries like Wes Anderson, Pedro Almodovar, and more. Let's start with the big one that Wes did, The Wonderful Story of Henry Sugar, which I think is the most watched. That's the lengthiest of the four. So for anybody who's not aware of this, there are now four short films directed by Wes Anderson

on the Netflix streaming service. Amanda, you had a chance to see just this first one. Yes. In Venice. Yes. In Venice. Yes. In Italy. In the presence of Wes Anderson. In the presence of Wes Anderson.

Sitting like three rows back from him on the small Venice balcony. He was given, what was the name of the award he was given? Cartier Glory to the Filmmaker Award. That's wonderful. It's really good. I do recall when we last spoke of Best Picture Power Rankings, you said you liked this movie quite a bit obviously it's not competing for best picture but it is almost certainly going to compete for

best short film and that's sort of the thinking behind this episode did you revisit the movie before we had this chat this chat i revisited part of it this morning because i was like i woke up and i was like oh crap i haven't seen this since venice um but it was interesting i did not see the other three films, which are The Swan, Poison, and The Rat Catcher at Venice. They were not shown. And I did watch those. And they are very much of a piece with the wonderful story of Henry Sugar in that they are sort of formal exercises. They're all adaptations of Roald Dahl short stories, but they're using the same narration and style and breaking the fourth wall. And how do we make an adaptation? How do we put a literary thing on screen,

which is an enduring Wes Anderson fascination? So that sort of felt like a refresher. Yeah, I thought a really interesting project. I think each film is successful on its own merits. As a project, it's a fascinating culmination of Anderson's interest in Dahl and what Dahl does, this kind of slightly dyspeptic but whimsical point of view that reminds me a lot of early Wes Anderson, but not a lot of modern Wes Anderson, which I think of as much more melancholy and dramatic. This feels like an extension too of what Asteroid City was,

which was finding more and more picture frames to put around the picture he has composed. I think in this case, it was really interesting. He made this choice, as you pointed out, to read or to enter into the dialogue of the film much of the exposition of the story so that you have characters explaining what is happening to you while you are watching what is happening um i think for some people that's going to be a distancing choice they're going to find that to be less exciting for me as somebody who

has obsessively watched and re-watched many of wes anderson's works, it got my wheels moving about why he is doing this and what's interesting to him about this. So what would you make of that choice? Yeah, no, I agree with you. And you mentioned Asperger's City. I thought a lot about French Dispatch, both because French Dispatch, in a way, is a collection of stories with that framework,

in this case, like the New Yorker New Yorker esque magazine. But bringing in these ideas of of editing and perspective and how you put a story together and how you do that in the written word and then how you do that on screen. And so I thought it was pretty fun in terms of the way that he plays with what you hear versus what you see. And we were just talking with Andy Greenwald before we came in about whether this would be like a child-friendly type exercise. And Roald Dahl has written many beloved children's books, but also some of them are like a little weird and these have sort of disturbing themes. On the other hand, I was like,

oh, this is sort of like having a story read to you, but at the same time, it's pointing out how you might imagine what a story looks like in your head when you're reading versus how someone else imagines it. Like, you know, generally, like the act of reading is sort of put on the screen which like i'm obviously a huge nerd for so i thought that was just fascinating it was it was and it is part of

this lineage and the characters in these stories are all these kind of conflicted people who are trying to reinvent or reimagine themselves which is a really persistent theme in a lot of wes anderson's stories and movies um this is actually his 10th short film. He has made far more short films than many of his contemporaries. Bottle Rocket, his first movie, started out as a short film. Many of his films have these kind of prologues

or epilogues that feel connected to what he had done before, at least in the same milieu. So he's in like a very familiar framework here. These movies also, we should say, star Benedict Cumberbatch and dev patel and richard iowati and rupert friend and ray fines like ben kingsley like extremely seasoned successful actors who don't often appear in short films which makes this feel a little different and

each of them kind of shifts who's the center and who's narrating throughout, which is, but it's like a little troupe who got together and made, did this experiment with Wes, which like I thought was really fun. Dev Patel is amazing in this. He was so wonderful. He's so perfect for the Wes Anderson thing. Yes. And, you know, all these actors have been asked, they've been directed to speak as quickly as possible. And Dev Patel has great fast voice. You know, there's like a style of talking

that he is just wonderful at. So I would not be at all surprised if he was like the star of the next Wes Anderson movie because he fits in so well. I thought this was cool and an interesting experiment. You know, Chris and I were talking a little bit last week about what does it mean that this is happening? Why are filmmakers going towards this?

Or, you know, obviously 25 years ago, it's very unlikely that Wes Anderson would have been able to make something like this without it having a kind of coherent organizing framework to release in a movie theater. But now he has leveraged the wealth and power of Netflix to get something like this out into the world. I thought it was really interesting that these movies were not packaged together, that they were individually cut up and issued. And you almost had to find them like Poison or The Rat Catcher. I guess The Swan was my favorite of the four. But the fact that they're not even like Wes Anderson presents Roald Dahl's Poison on that

little thumbnail card, it's just a picture of Rupert Friend or a picture of Benedict Cumberbatch. I mean, in the case of Benedict Cumberbatch, like that might be algorithm just at work. It could be. I just think it's interesting the way that it's being positioned, the way that it's being sort of marketed or anti-marketed. It's just kind of on the surface like so many other things. And so for us, it's exciting. It's great. We had a lot of awareness of this a year ago.

But I wonder, are people just firing up the 17-minute short film extracted from the rest of these films? Well, you and Chris talked a little bit about, Chris pointed out, this is a way for people who don't want to do TV to get into the streaming ecosystem in a way that does fit counterintuitively because I watched uh I guess Rat Catcher first and then Netflix was like now this was interesting there was no autoplay on the next yeah I had the same experience which I thought was very savvy and I'm sure was negotiated and intentional so I watched the the credits, but then it would say, it would suggest to me, you know, the swan or poison. Or Love is Blind season five.

No, no. You know, it's not been suggesting Love is Blind to me. I've been watching it. I'm watching season five. Listen, I, okay, let's put a pin in that. I've just, I've got like Juliet just like living Love is Blind from afar. She's not on Love is Blind. She's just really consumed by it yeah it's quite an experience quite a television program um i got recommended the next episode of beckham the docuseries on netflix which is wonderful i haven't seen it really recommend it directed by fisher stevens anyway i don't know anything about soccer so if you like soccer that or football excuse me then maybe you'll hate it um so it was recommended to me like a tv episode and then you just press click and that's how you watch the next one yeah okay um

so there is something like natural in a way to these being on netflix because they have that kind of grouping mechanism and you're used to just like firing up and watching a chapter of something and then watching the next chapter and then watching the next chapter. And in some ways, it felt more intuitive to me than, you know, the next, like, Oscar contender just popping up on my TV at home. So you're not a, you're on the record about this quite vociferously, not a fan of short stories. Yeah, let's extend it to short fiction.

Short, all short items of communicated narrative story. I, what? I mean, you won't listen to a, a scripted podcast. Absolutely not. No. Okay. No, no, no, no. Interesting. But that's more about, cause those actually end up being quite long. They can be long. Yeah. Yeah. They're sort of like Dickens, but in podcast form. And the issue there is that I don't read with my ears. Um, they're sort of like Dickens, but in podcast form. And the issue there is that I don't read with my ears. I read with my eyes. There are many people

who read with their ears. So you won't do an audiobook ever? I've tried, especially nonfiction. And obviously, for a number of reasons having to do with the world at large, maybe I'll try to get more into it.

But no, for whatever whatever i just kind of start dozing off interesting okay anyway um but historically when we talk about the short films around oscar time i just i think it's a different exercise i so i am i am on the record i think my greatest hot take is that short stories suck write a novel cowards um and i like honestly believe that obviously there are exceptions you know like shout out george saunders whatever but for the most part i feel like i'm getting always the either the deeply experimental which i experimentation is a huge part of the creative process obviously but look at you dancing like a politician right through the raindrops.

I don't know. Sometimes, like, experiment, figure things out on your own time, and then you give me your best effort. You know, you're asking for my time. I want the finished product. So to me, a lot of short stories often feel a little weighted in terms of the writer just doing their pages in the morning and trying something and then just undercooked. And I

think that there are short stories and short films that are like fully realized in someone's idea. And this was the best, you know, vehicle for this this idea and then there are some that are just someone being like i don't know i didn't i couldn't really get the full thing together so here you go do you feel this way about like hemingway or alice monroe or no like i said like i understand there are exceptions and there are people and we're going to talk about some of them where like this medium is like the chosen medium and and they are because i like i do believe that form like is instructs like the content of anything right yeah i mean so does everyone so there are some people where it's like i have chosen this short story because this is how or

this short film because this is what I want to say and how I'm going to say it like they're very intentional and then I feel like some of my favorite writers released a short story collection like every three years because they need a check you know which like they deserve every check but I'm not going to be reading the cast offs got it that's where I am understood I I bring that up because this is unusual that we don't just have these four Wes Anderson films, but that we have a, a passel, a passel of, of new shorts to look at from world renowned filmmakers.

Um, probably the most notable of the bunch is strange way of life, which is the now second short film from Pedro Almodovar in the English language, which is a language he had not made any movies in previously. And we, I know we now know he is gearing up for his first English language, which is a language he had not made any movies in previously. And we now know he is gearing up for his first English language feature. And it feels like he's been working through figuring out how to make a film in this way by making these shorts. Now, this is a case

where I think the form is very purposeful because it is a kind of, if not an experiment, him evolving the way that he makes movies and making, you know, he made a movie in 2020 called The Human Voice with Tilda Swinton, which you said you just checked out, right? Well, I went to see Strange Way of Life in a theater and it was packaged with The Human Voice and none of Q&A. So, you know, these are two very different films. The Human Voice is a kind of solitary single performance by Tilda Swinton in a very classical Almodovar production-designed world. Strange Way of Life is very different. It's a true blue Western.

It's a gay cowboy movie starring Ethan Hawke and Pedro Pascal. You know, it is, what is it, about 22 minutes thereabouts? 25 minutes? Yes. You know, a melodrama, a thriller, everything all at once. Is it Yves Saint Laurent that funded the movie? I can't recall. Well, now it's just Saint Laurent.

Saint Laurent, okay. But yes, they produced it and it's in the credits. Their credits are in their typeface. Yes, yes. And then everybody else is in the Almodovar typeface.

I thought that was interesting. Yeah. And you know, this is similar to Netflix shelling out for a Wes Anderson project that there is a kind of vanity aspect

to these movies that everybody needs backers, everybody needs benefactors. Listen, the clothes were also by Saint Laurent and they were great. Pedro Pascal's green chore jacket. Excellent, yes.

Wonderful. And also the tailoring of Ethan Hawke's pinstripe sheriff suit. I mean, he's some sort of law enforcement. I don't know whether he's a sheriff. I believe he's a sheriff. Yeah, I mean, I... A marshal?

Perhaps a marshal. They didn't, like, do, like, the full breakdown of the hierarchy. Managing deputy? In this 25-minute film. Okay. It was also beautiful. Like, this is what you get

when you have Saint Laurent underwrite your film. And El Motivar, you know, imagine a world and execute on a world. I mean, this is what he does. It kind of breaks my heart that I didn't really like this movie very much because I love his movies so much and I'm fascinated by him making films in English, but this felt like kind of rote and half-baked at the same time. Yeah.

Well, as you said, he is moving into a new space and working in English language and it did, it felt a little bit like a trial balloon. And I enjoyed like looking at it. So, you know, but that's kind of what I'm talking about where sometimes you can just feel, okay, you're trying to figure something out. And that is a hugely valuable part of the creative process. But sometimes that's different than like a final result that I want to spend my time on. Yeah, I agree. Even Hawk and Pascal, both of whom I think are good. Hawk is this sort of hard bitten, classical, like, you know, craggy sheriff type. Pascal is sort of more emotional, more deep feeling. He's

a father, but his son is threatened by the circumstances and he needs to protect him. And so you get these contrasts. But, you know, it's like a lot of movies you've seen before. And also moves very fast. It's over quickly. That's the upside. You preferred The Human Voice to this. I did. I had never seen it.

And first of all, it has Tilda Swinton. And as you said, it is that classic Amo Dovar set. It was beautiful to look at. And there's like an apartment set on a soundstage and is playing kind of with the meta sense of how are we telling this story? So it made sense to me more as a short, as a just kind of thought experiment.

It couldn't have sustained a feature film, I don't think. I don't think so either. I don't think so. It's a flourish. Yeah. It felt like a flourish. But that has value. I mean, you know, he's very good at those. Of course.

Of course. It felt kind of like there was a film about a character who was watching a movie in a movie and this was the movie that he was watching. You know what I mean? It didn't feel quite like it was a movie that was part of a wider framing device. But nevertheless, I look forward to what he does next because I think the next thing he does is the time to dig in more deeply to his films. At the Academy Museum last year, there was a huge exhibit dedicated to his work, and it's overwhelming. I mean, he's got over 20 features now,

I would say 10 of which are, like, among the 10 best films that have ever come out of Spain, among the 10 best films in European film history. Like, he is really this, like, extraordinarily passionate, funny, sexy, scary, really interesting filmmaker who's gotten his due. I mean, it's not like he's not, he's not underrated.

He is considered, widely considered a master. But in America, when you don't make movies in English, there's a barrier to entry there. So he's going to be making a move as he goes into kind of probably what is the final phase

of his career. Speaking of the final phase, Godfrey Reggio is probably a name I've never said on this show. He has a new film, his first film in over 10 years. It's called Once Within a Time. If you don't know his name, you may have heard of Koyaanis Katsi or Pawekatsi or Nakoyakatsi or any of the sort of like overwhelming, hard-cutting, gorgeous, Philip Glass scored kind of hyper documentaries that are just sort of these chroniclings of experiences in the world. The first film is hugely celebrated. It's one of the most celebrated documentaries in the history

of the form. It's beautiful. It's fascinating. You know, it's about the natural world and how we exist inside of it, we destroy it how it destroys us all huge massive themes all wordlessly communicated to audiences every 10 years or so he comes out with something like this

Once Within a Time is a little different than those documentaries it's a much more constructed movie it's another collaboration with Philip Glass like many of his

most recent projects executive produced by your boy Steven Soderbergh who's a huge champion of Reggio's movies it's sort of a black and white and colorized comedy and anarchic comedy

about the world under threat and humanity making a huge decision it's a little bit hard to read into what the movie is it feels like a very big bold homage to the kinds of films that were made a hundred years ago the Melie and German Expressionism and these very, like, elaborate sets that feel hyper-real and quite, like, false as well. I thought it was a really interesting experiment.

We watched it very differently. I saw it in a movie theater. Right. And you watched it at home. Yes. And, you know, thank you to everyone at Asilisope who facilitated that because i would not have been able to see it otherwise but also like obviously that was not the ideal place to see it if i had seen it in the theater or if i had seen it like at moma where i believe you know it is playing um that is the right context for you know what is like tipping like that it is art in

the kind of um arts experimental film. Yeah. And it's an interesting delineation too between what we've been talking about and sometimes what this form is used for, which is this is a more experimental form. This is a kind of nonlinear, non-narrative form. It's just primarily visually oriented. Sometimes the best short films at the Academy Awards follow this structure. Often not. Often it's a cute story about a guy who works as a tollbooth attendant or whatever. You know what I mean? It's not usually. Somehow produced

by the New Yorker. Exactly. Often three of the five films nominated for Best Short are produced by the New Yorker somehow. None of the movies we're for Best Short are produced by The New Yorker somehow. None of the movies we're talking about today are produced by The New Yorker, magically. I mean, that's the other thing is that sometimes don't they... They come in late, yes.

In a bid to win more Academy Awards. Praise be to Conde Nast, I suppose. I think that this one is interesting and worth seeing, although it's going to be very hard to see if you're just living in America. I'm sure it will be available on VOD at a certain point. But if you've not seen Koyaanis Katsky,

that's an amazing, amazing cinematic experience. And even seeing it at home, let it wash over you. I am a huge Philip Glass fan. His work is inextricable from Reggio's. I recommend people check that out. And then Jackals and Fireflies is a new film that I just stumbled upon that actually was released in March. Available on YouTube. It's on YouTube right now.

It was shot entirely, and I believe paid for, by Samsung and shot on the Samsung S22 Ultra phone. And this movie is directed by Charlie Kaufman. You should get into phone ads. You should be the new, like new AT&T woman or whatever. I would welcome that. Yeah. Do you think that I... Maybe my voice?

Yeah. But not my face. No, we'd like your face too. Okay. You know, in a quarter zip. I don't own a single quarter zip. Did you know that? Okay.

That's great to know for the next gifting opportunity for you I look like a guy who ought to be wearing a quarter zip yeah you do but that's okay that's what we love about you and I think that's how you'll be relatable

and that's how you'll get the money so here's what my goal has always been to be rich in my 50s that's something I always wanted for myself that's getting closer so here's what I'm saying right now. I will act as unofficial agent and kind of just like creative director of this project in exchange.

What percent are you taking? I'm not taking any money. Here's what I am negotiating is full approval over and then access to the vacation home that you purchase with some of the funds. Interesting. That's a big ask. That's with some of the funds. Interesting. That's a big ask. That's actually more than the 10% fee. You basically want to be the co-landlord of my vacation home?

I don't want to be the landlord. I just want approval over its selection. Uh-huh. I just want you to vet it. And I will take into account your tastes. I know that our tastes are different, but like in a vacation home. But I will be buying the home from Ex Machina. Like, are you on board with that?

No, because then I'll just have to be like, but that's not good for Knox and Alice. Yeah, but think about the waterfall. So we're just going to talk through, like, I just have approval, right? You make it sound like that's not anything. Well, you can, I will take. Negotiating with you, that sound like that's not anything well you can i will negotiating with you that's like negotiating with fucking a warlord i don't think that's fair all you have to do is agree on which airbnb you and edie amin will be staying together listen i think i just i think i get unfairly like remembered for the moments of um at peak

difficulty you know and the rest of the time fairly remembered yeah for the accurate representation i've been getting this at home a bit as well and i'm just like some self-reflection has come into the mix i mean it's just kind of like um yeah, because, like, Knox will do things. He's pretty willful. And there's a lot of, well, where do you think he gets that from? Yeah. And that's fair. But also, I just don't think that everyone sees the compromise that's going on inside on a day-to-day basis.

Do you know what I mean? Like, if you understood how far I was traveling to meet you where you are, like most of the time. The important question there is, whose problem is that? So I think you would be surprised by the negotiation process.

Okay. So you're saying you would be... So this is... Let's go back. This is when I am hired by Samsung to be the actor slash emissary. Really? Any phone company. Okay.

Or I'll put you up for Mint, you know? Mint Mobile? Yeah. Mint Mobile is a sponsor of this program. Are they? Yeah. Oh, there we go. Okay. All right. So you want me to be paid directly by Mint?

Well, that's not yet paying for our vacation home. No, no. We're not there yet, unfortunately. I'm for sale. That's what yet, unfortunately. I'm for sale. That's what I'll say. I'm for sale. If you're able to broker a relationship, I will broker a home with you. Okay, great.

Thank you. But the payout has to be meaningful here. I understand that. It has to be a jackals and fireflies level execution. Right. Like, this is an entire 22-minute film organized around the writings of the poet

Ava H.D. last seen in the last Charlie Kaufman film. Right. And, I think it's fascinating that he made this movie

with this phone. This is closer to the Reggio movie, like experimental movie. Yes, but... It's sort of a representation of a poem. Yes.

Which is, I guess, not so far afield from the west anderson thing as well it has something in common with the the west anderson in terms of you're being read something and there were passages of the poem that i thought were very beautiful and then great poet and then some that were i was kind of like oh this is a poem but that's okay um but it was interesting to hear it read i mean like poetry as a performed art is has like sort of entirely fallen away well i think when we hear that we think of slam poetry yes as opposed to the the reading of a poet that is not performative necessarily exactly but so that was amazing to have access to and then and then the same thing of like kind of like what you hear versus what you see. It is to me as someone who reads a lot, just endlessly fascinating.

So I liked that part of it. Yeah, I did too. I thought it was hit or miss, but I thought it was an interesting filmmaking experiment for Kaufman, who is, you know, even though his films don't really feel linear, is traditionally a linear narrative storyteller. This was something much more impressionistic. New York story shot in New York, I thought quite beautifully. That phone, who knew? Yeah.

It worked. There you go. Huge shout out for Samsung, makers of all my televisions as well. Do I have a Samsung? I believe so. Okay. I'm sure I recommended one to your husband.

We've just talked about one, two, three, seven short films, which is more short films than we typically talk about in the run-up to the Oscars every year for the years and years we've been doing the show. That's true. And I wonder, it's highly unlikely that El Motivar, Wes Anderson, Charlie Kaufman, and Reggio will all be nominated for Best Short Film. But they might, in which case this would be by far the most star-studded Best Short Film campaign ever. And all of these films are going to be accessible. That's the other thing is when we get up to this category, by February 12th, you still can't see the movies. It's usually hard to see the films.

Maybe they're on YouTube, but not always. There's always one or two that are not made available. They're produced by the New Yorker, they are. That's right. But it is always the one that's not available that winds up winning. The wins, yes, exactly. So I wonder, and you know, obviously the way that these awards are voted on, like the short lists are compiled in unique ways

and you don't always get the noisiest stories. I would be very surprised if Henry Sugar was not nominated for Best Short Film here because they don't just have Wes Anderson, they have the Netflix machine behind them. But Wes doesn't have an Oscar, right? He hasn't won one? I don't think so. I'm almost positive Wes doesn't have an Oscar, right? He hasn't won one? I don't think so.

I'm almost positive he doesn't have one. Let's just confirm that. Yeah, he's been nominated seven times. Can you guess the seven times he's been nominated? I always love playing this game with you. Okay. Let's see. Oh, this is a great one.

This is super interesting. What he was nominated for. Okay. Was he nominated for screenplay for Rushmore? He was not. Okay. But he what he was nominated for okay was he nominated for screenplay for rushmore he was not okay but he was for bottle rocket no oh for ten about ten about yeah i knew ten about ten about yes best original screenplay is the first nomination 2002 okay um what comes after ten and bounds the life aquatic with Zissou. Was he nominated for that? He was not. I didn't think so.

And then, okay, so Grand Budapest, he was nominated for Best Picture. He was nominated for Screenplay. Was he nominated for Director? Okay. So that's, I've got four. We've got four. Okay. Three for Picture, Director, and Screenplay for Grand Budapest.

Was Fantastic Mr. Fox nominated? For Best Animated Feature. Ah, okay. So that's five? That's five. Hold on. You've got. Fox nominated? For best animated feature. Ah, okay. So that's five? That's five. Hold on. You've got two more here. I'm thinking through.

This is a real brain buster one of these. Okay. So after Are people playing along at home, I wonder. After Grand Budapest I'm not Googling anything, guys.

What's after Grand Budapest? I'll give you a hint. Yeah. It's before Grand Budapest? I'll give you a hint. Yeah. It's before Grand Budapest. Oh, okay. Hmm.

But so Fantastic Mr. Fox was before Grand Budapest. Is it before? 2010. It's between those two. Okay. This is a personal favorite of mine. Oh, Moonrise Kingdom, of course. Okay.

Yeah. Okay. So one last one. Yeah. Which I don't think you're going to get. Is it as like a producer for something? Nope. So it's for Wes Anderson's own work.

It's one of his own films that he directed. Is it for like Hotel Chevalier? Nope. I love dogs. Best animated feature. Oh, yeah. That's a tough trivia question. Yeah.

I did okay. Yeah, you did well. Yeah, I heard that. I heard the tone in that okay you quiz me next episode we'll get even I'll fuck up on on mic um over under why is that why is what I just did classified as a fuck up because you you failed to get Isle of Dogs Christ my mother and then you you know it's like you sought this out that's the problem you sought this out. That's the problem. You sought this out. That is like what is wrong with like... The human mind. The human mind and psychology.

I agree. It's great to be here with you. That is so fucked up. I don't respond well to it. That's not true. You do some of your best work. Just working through your own childhood by way of movie trivia. It's a remarkable thing we've created here.

Remember when we did trivia during the pandemic um yes and there was an oscars category uh and the host did not know that you and i and we dominated it yeah we were like 11 for 11 or whatever in that category that was great that was a good time yeah um over under three oscar nominations nominations for Wes Anderson this year. Okay. So over, under is work where you say three. And then if I think it's going to be less than three, I say under. I say under.

What do you think they're going to be? I think it's going to be best screenplay for Asteroid City and animated feature or a short film. Sorry, for Wonderful Story of Henry Sugar. I agree. Yeah. What if he gets four best short film nominations for all four Wonderful Story of Henry Sugar. I agree. Yeah. What if he gets four best short film nominations for all four of his shorts? That would be fun. It's going to be an interesting race.

I'm intrigued by this one. I don't necessarily want extremely well-known filmmakers to overtake this category. As you know, I think that the short films should not be a part of the Oscars. As I said, this is part of my philosophy that it is a different medium and let's treat it accordingly. At a minimum, if this is going to be

a commercial award show, those films need to be made available in different ways and sooner. And that's really, that's the thing, is if you really want to

celebrate these filmmakers, the Oscars isn't just a place where you provide an opportunity for up and coming filmmakers to get recognized because the long history of the short film category, often there are people who have had longer careers who win for these categories. The same would be true for Wes. Nevertheless, we're talking about something we've hit on before. I thought we would use this as an opportunity to pick to pivot to where the best picture race is at. Now, we've spent the last month checking a lot of titles off of our list.

I've still got a couple of titles I haven't seen. Traditionally, at this time of year, we effectively, like, conclude seeing things because we go to the New York Film Festival. Right. And there are a couple of films that are playing there that I have not yet had the chance to see, nor you, I'm sure. But we've made it pretty far. I was gonna say, so between us, we've seen everything but one,

two... I think it's just two movies. Two movies. I believe the only two films that we haven't seen collectively that are considered contenders for Best Picture are The Color Purple, which does not open until the week of Christmas and has not played any film festivals, which is notable. And May-December, which of course played at Cannes and then played at the New York Film Festival and rapturous reception in New York,

which I thought was quite interesting. A couple of films that premiered elsewhere got different receptions in New York. We'll talk through that as we go through the films. So I made a list of all the movies

I think are contending right now. Should I read that list? Do you have any additions? Is there anything I forgot? No, this is a pretty extensive list. So we've got 2, 4, 6, 8, 10, 12, 14, 16, 18, 20, 22 films, 10 spots. Let's do the game. Let's go through it. I've got them in alphabetical order here. Air. American Fiction. Anatomy of a Fall. All of Us Strangers. Asteroid Should we announce the Academy Award nominations? I think we would be bang up at that, but I'm not waking up at 3.30 a.m. I know.

Let's move it. Listen, the morning shows are dead. Morning shows in reality and also the morning show of the show. Okay? So let's just do 8 a.m. PST. Everybody will be awake and on their phones. You'll be able to get up at 5.30 to get into hair and makeup for that? I will.

Okay. I woke up at 6.30 today on my phones. You'll be able to get up at 5.30 to get into hair and makeup for that? I will. Okay. I woke up at 6.30 today on my own. Congratulations. Yeah. There are millions of people listening to this pod right now being like, who fucking cares? 6.30?

I was on the construction site at 5 a.m., Amanda. How dare you? How many guys on the construction site are listening to the big picture right now? I'd love to hear from all of them. Okay. And then my son would like to meet every single one of them.

How does your dump truck work, sir? Now our neighbors are doing construction and he just rolls up every morning and says, hi, and waves at every single guy. It's very sweet, actually. And they're very lovely to him, which is very nice. I don't know. That's a personal evolution that I'm sharing here on this podcast with you. I would do the announcement of the Academy Award nominations for free.

So if they want me to participate, I will do it for free. We're not doing it for free, but we'll give a reduced group rate. You can charge whatever. You can have my fee. I'll do it for nothing. Just to have the experience. What would you wear? Like, what's your luck? Quarter the experience what would you wear like what's your luck quarter

zip okay uh what would you wear um it kind of depends on what you would wear you know anyway what if i wore like top hat and tails then i would probably wear top hat and tails too that would be funny that's well wasn't that a bad joke that james franco and anne hathaway did i think they did a lot of them. Okay. And I resent the implications in that that you're the James Franco and I'm the Anne Hathaway. I resent the implications.

Jesus Christ. That's true. I forgot about that. All right. So why don't we start knocking some titles off that we don't think are going to make it? It's a little hard for us to weigh in on the color purple in May, December right now.

You've seen American Fiction? I have seen American Fiction. I still haven't been able to make it to a screening. I've seen Napoleon too, which not many people have seen. Did you drive all the way to Santa Monica? To see American Fiction I have seen American Fiction I still haven't been able to make it to a screening I've seen Napoleon too which not many people have seen to see American Fiction

no I saw it in a screening room in Beverly Hills I quite liked it I'm really excited to see it it's just that all of them that's the thing is most of these titles at this point now

we can kind of share our opinions about softly there are a couple that we won't because we don't want to spoil what we think about the other film.

Yeah, no, I kind of overheard yours. Yeah, I know that wasn't intentional, but it is what it is. Okay. Do you want to start at the top with eliminating? Do you think air is... I respectfully to my kings. I don't think it's contending.

You don't think that there's a world in which they hunker down and say from December on, we're going to hustle to make this happen? Matt and Ben? I guess there's always a world and they're really good at it and I personally

would take great joy from that campaign. So if they want to, I'm there for it. But you're a little iffy on that movie. I enjoyed it. Do I think it, you know.

It doesn't stack up to a lot of what you've seen. Yeah. I wouldn't put it in my personal top 10. Okay, air i'm just eliminating in full american fiction is a contender yeah this seems like this is gonna happen definitely a contender i don't it's not a lock to me because actually typically movies like this don't always make it in um which is to say slightly satirical dramedies that's if you're James L. Brooks,

you can get in, but like it's not common. Right. So this would be an interesting thing if he got through. Court Jefferson, that is. Anatomy of a Fall.

This is a very interesting one to me. Yeah. Have you seen this yet? Yes. Okay. This, I'm desperate to have a long conversation with you

about this movie. I kind of want to see it a second time before we do that. Okay. I'm open to seeing it again. This is Justine Triet's, I think it's her fifth feature film.

It's her second collaboration with Sandra Holler. This is a film that was passed over for the international entry for France in favor of The Taste of Things, probably one of my 10 favorite movies of the year. But in a fascinating courtroom drama

slash true crime-ish. And the Palme d'Or winner. And the Palme d'Or winner, that's right, of course. So we'll keep Anatomy of a Fallen for now. Yeah. It has neon behind it,

which is important in terms of navigating the best picture race. They're good at that. They are. All of us strangers, you've just seen. I have seen.

Do you feel it is a best picture contender? I saw it in, I tell you. Yeah. I mean, I think so. I think so. Yeah. I mean, I think so. I think so.

Now that's really interesting because we've just named three films that are kind of small with not a lot of famous people in them that feel like they have a chance.

Here's what I think is going to happen. And here's what I hope is going to happen. Searchlight, are you listening? Andrew Scott, just out there.

And he's so amazing. Yes, that's what I said to you after I saw it. No, you're totally right. Like, he is incredible. And he's so amazing. Yes, that's what I said to you after I saw it. No, you're totally right. Like, he is incredible. And I think it's, like, one of those performances.

And then I do also think both Claire Foy and Jamie Bell, as you mentioned, are also amazing. And that is an incredibly emotional and deeply specific movie that is also, in some ways, like, very open and relate like you know like it

is very relatable anyone can find something yes in there even though it feels so deeply personal we're on the same page kind of seems to is like a you know sign to me that like many people i just like i was absolutely wrecked by this movie i was was, like, genuinely weeping for a large part of it. And then I noticed that the, like, theater staffer who, like, stands by the door to make sure, like, nobody's, you know, recording or whatever was also sobbing, which was, like, a new thing for me and my screening adventures. It was very beautiful. And I, like, caught eyes with him as we, like, both wiped away tears. So it's very powerful yep

we will devote a long conversation to this movie when it comes out later this year so Asteroid City probably on the outside

looking in here yeah I mean as you made me do my over under and I did not list it so yeah I I think we're gonna

look back on this one as like a miss a miss if we don't celebrate it more. It's kind of rising in my estimation. I know. Even as we were doing our Wes Anderson rankings, you were like, I'm putting this at four number now, but it's going to grow.

Yeah. I don't disagree. This is the third movie in a row of his where after I've seen it, I was like, ooh, this is like the second and third time I see it yeah I see how much how much insight there is in the movie because I think it's easy to be distracted or even bored by the artifice yeah and I think he's getting like much deeper as an artist as and as deep as I thought he was when he was just an angry kid making you know Rushmore I feel like he's really growing up. He's aging. Okay, but I agree with you.

I don't think it's contending. What a stupid game we're playing here where we talk about beautiful art we love and then just cross it off. Barbie. I think so, yes. Yeah, I agree. Barbie. Is Barbie good? I'm really not doing this with you. I know at some point we're going to have to put the pads back on, you know?

But I'm just like, I'm not. I'm just trying to get a reaction. like put the pads back on you know but i'm just like i'm not just trying to get a reaction really i just like you know i'm i don't need to fight in the war how about this yeah academy voters think barbie is good now the academy is very yes young and diverse now i think that they will okay no but i also think that there is like a like barbie plays well with boomers, you know? And listen, I loved Barbie. I like absolutely, I've seen it twice, like loved it. I think it's like very fun that we had this whole phenomenon. Like, you know, it's great stuff.

But it is also like accessible to everyone, including like all the Academy boomers who we like to like make fun of all the time. Interesting. Okay. So, you know what I mean? I think that like to like make fun of all the time. Interesting. Okay. So you know what I mean? I think that it has a, I think it has very broad appeal. You think there are 72 year old white men in the Academy that are like, Barbie is my shit? No, I don't.

You know, I want to see Barbie as my dad. I'd like to speak with him about that. Okay. I guess I would like my dad to see Barbie as well. He might like it. I don't know. He was like Francis Haasas those people are too young so those people are too young yeah that was his what does that mean he's just like i'm old i know i can't oh he couldn't relate yeah and i

meanwhile it's the most relatable movie ever yeah i mean it's like our favorite movie of all time um yeah so i don't know what my dad will think my father-in-law liked it and my and my mother-in-law rich is very open-minded though that's true he's very you know but jane is also jane doesn't like um jane doesn't suffer fools which that's true why i really like her and you know like i and she was into it oh yeah she really liked it and sometimes she doesn't like the like you know frothier stuff okay all. All right. Well, Barbie is... I'd be stunned if it wasn't nominated for Best Picture. Yeah.

The Bike Riders. This is the new Jeff Nichols movie I like quite a bit. You see it yet? No. Zach saw it, but I didn't, which is just bullshit. I like it a lot. I don't think it will be making it into Best Picture. I could be wrong.

I could definitely see acting nominations if it's received in the way that I hope it's received. But I don't think it's given the the overwhelming number of films that are competing right now i'm taking it off the color purple is a tough one we can certainly hold space for it yes if we feel because there's nothing quite like it it's a musical it's a period piece it's based on a play it's based on a novel it's based on you know it's it know, it's a wildly diverse cast and a fairly white year of nominees. It's a big studio, big budget movie, actually from the same studio as Barbie, which is a little bit of a challenge for it potentially in terms of campaigning. But it does feel like this is a kind of a piece of the puzzle that is currently missing from this race, which is why I think most

prognosticators are holding space for it. You agree with that? Sure, yeah. Okay. I mean, I haven't seen it, but all that makes sense. Ferrari. I still have not seen Ferrari. I've seen Ferrari. I loved it. I do not think it will be nominated for Best Picture.

Okay. With great respect to Michael Mann and Adam Driver's Italian accent. Okay. I'm taking Ferrari off. The Holders. Could be wrong. Listen, I loved it. I don't want, like, you deflated a little bit as I said that.

Well, I just, I'm pumped, you know? I want you to be pumped. It was sick. Like, A plus experience. Okay. Everyone should get the It's been a long time

since he made a movie I really loved. I know. I've enjoyed like all the Black Hat jokes that everyone's been made since Black Hat Rewatchables which is a podcast

I listen to in full. Yeah, entertaining pod. Better than the movie in many ways there's no denying it uh ferrari is awesome but i just i don't know whether it's gonna be academy material okay here's a big one yeah the holdover i don't know i haven't seen it yet oh i'm supposed to go next week oh interesting so you you you had some preconceived notions of this film which i don't appreciate frankly it's a long time alexander payne stan listen i like alexander payne's good work and i haven't seen this so i don't know but i just like again are you out of nebraska no i like nebraska oh okay yeah yeah yeah so then you're

a real one yeah like. Like, sure. It looks nice. I'll look forward to your review of the film. Sure. And we'll talk about it. Another movie that is opening in New York and L.A. and then in four cities and then going wide, which is increasingly not working as a strategy

unless your movie is released by A24, which is kind of frustrating. To your point about boomers in the Academy, I think this is going to be the boomers in the Academy movie. I think that's where I'm like, I, to your point about Boomers in the Academy, I think this is going to be the Boomers in the Academy movie. I think that's where I'm like, okay, Boomers.

Yeah. I'm going to hold a place for the holdovers for now as we go down the list. The Killer, I've still not seen it. I, I,

I, I need to see it. Are they listed? Have you been emailing? Yeah, of course. Okay. I'm in,

I'm in contact with the organization releasing the film. You and Zach should go together because Zach my husband yes my fellow sociopath let's go no I just more meant

he was with me in Venice but he left early to take care of our child God bless him you know and so he didn't get to see the killer and I did

and I just it was sick it was so good everyone who was like I don't know about the killer like no I know about the killer and I had a great time.

If they don't show me the film before it's released, it's opening in movie theaters on my wife's birthday, which is not ideal. So. Okay. Even in terms of what,

and we're throwing a little party for my wife. Yeah. So like the night before, I can't go to that either, the Thursday night. So like, you know, just show me the film.

Yeah. This is the filmmaker with whom I share spiritual DNA. This is a movie about you right so i'm very excited about it i would be stunned if this hitman movie is nominated for best picture but i haven't seen it i do not think it will be nominated but that is because the academy are just idiots when it comes to david fincher will david fincher die without an academy award i don't even want to talk about it. Okay.

Killers of the Flower Moon. Yes. Now, we haven't been speaking about this film together. Your husband, who profiled Martin Scorsese, did ask me my opinion while we were out to dinner together on Friday.

You had walked away to chase a toddler. And then as you returned, you heard some things I was saying. Deeply regrettable. Yeah, I just heard the blanket review, which I agreed with. Deeply regrettable. Yeah, I just heard like the blanket review, which I agreed with.

Okay. And, and I'm, this is so mean. I am excited to have someone else to talk about it with, you know,

because Zach has seen it and talked about it, but I need like a, I need more opinions. I need more, I need more grist. I think on October 20th, we will have a

very long conversation yeah but we have to figure out a way to see it again we need to see it again Killers of the Fire Moon almost certainly will be nominated for best picture right yes is there any chance it isn't nominated for best picture I I honestly don't know what we do if it doesn't now obviously Scorsese in Zach's piece and on the trail sense talks about how he feels removed from Hollywood and removed from the Academy. But they need him

way more than he needs them at this point. Don't you think? I like how you're thinking. I hope so. That might just be our big picture brain. They're like, we got Barbie. We got Oppenheimer coming up. But speaking of, we've got seven films that we're holding space for right now. And there are 12 films yet to discuss.

We get to edit this, right? We do, of course. It's really funny how you keep saying holding space like we're at some sort of, you know. I'm taking back their language for repressed 40-year-old men. 40-year-old men need to reclaim the psychological this is also how you and chris now note everything with interest um which i just just absolutely tickles me every single time anyway let's keep going i like the idea of holding space for all my weird lists which is where i put all my real feelings. Maestro. Yeah. Now, another film that I think

we'll probably have like a nine or 12 hour pod about. I just, I saw it and I texted you and I was like, we just need to start recording now. I don't mind telling you this is one of my favorite movies of the year. Yeah. And it's interesting because I felt like when you saw it,

you were like at a minimum fascinated by it and eager to discuss. But not, that didn't seem to be the vibe out of venice but then it was the vibe out of the new york film festival right the new york film festival people were like fuck bradley cooper man that's a filmmaker that seemed to be the general reaction i thought i thought that that was the view out of venice as well just based on what i read i wasn't feeling that i think and i again most people haven't had the chance to see it yet and we're not going to be able to podcast about it for a while but

i think that it is and you had this experience too and i know i did it is it defies everyone's expectations yes not what i was expecting exactly and so there is that sort of like wow huh like i'm working through this moment of the reaction to the film that I think, like, certainly in Venice, colored everyone's reviews. And in New York, I guess people were just like, wow, a little bit more. Yeah, and I'm sure some of that is, you know, for anybody who's listening who doesn't know what my show is, it's Bradley Cooper's second film as a director. It's a kind of sort of biopic of Leonard Bernstein and his marriage, but not really in a lot more than that in any ways. But he is an icon of New York. And so I wonder if part of the reception there is that it was playing to the

Lincoln Center crowd, the Leonard Bernstein crowd, truly. But even my friends who were there, who are film critics or whatever, were just like, whoa, Cooper, he's got the goods. There's a couple moments in the movie where you're like, amazing. No, there are a couple. Absolutely astonishing. Yeah. I think the general audiences will be a little bit more not as into it.

It's not A Star Is Born at all. No, it's not. It's not pop. It's not pop. And imagining people watching it at home without the surround sound and the glory of all the music. You can see it in the theater. I know we say that about everything. In this one, you really, you got to try to see.

There's a scene in particular. There is one scene that I literally was moved to tears just by the overwhelming filmmaking. It's literally why you go to the movies. No, it's unbelievable. Do you think it's a Best Picture nominee? Probably. I think so too. I do.

I think everyone loves Bradley Cooper. Like he is like the most popular guy in Hollywood. Is he though? Because he's very sharp edged, you know?

You see that he's been photographed with Gigi Hadid a lot recently. Is that true? Yeah, like having dinner dates or whatever. I see.

Just putting that out there. Good. Good for him. I hope he finds love. Okay. Me too, you know? Yeah, absolutely. That's what I hope for all people.

And I also hope that for Gigi. Can't say I know much about her. She seems really nice. Okay. I'm interested in trying her sweaters. She has a line of sweaters. Yeah. Like any quarter zips or?

I don't know, actually. I have my eye on a blue crew neck, but I'll keep you posted. Got it. Good to know. May, December. This one feels very hard to weigh in on. Based on what I've been reading, it feels like it could be a movie where all three leads are nominated for Oscars, but the film is not nominated for Best Picture.

Do you think that's what's in play? Yes. That sounds entirely possible. And that seems kind of in keeping with the recent pulled from, like, I'm trying to think of other examples where people are playing real people. And I know in this case, it's inspired by rather than the real Mary Kayla Tornow case, but like, so-and-so really captured, like, you know, Renee Zellweger and Judy. I don't think Judy was nominated for Best Picture, right? No, it was not.

Yeah. That's an interesting comparison. Yeah, there are a few others, I feel like, where it was like, oh, she really brought, or they really brought so-and-so to life,

but the movie itself, Darkest Hour was nominated for Best Picture, right? It was nominated. Shout out to the boomers. I think Hour was nominated for Best Picture, right? It was nominated. Shout out to the boomers. I think Todd Haynes has only been nominated one time

for Far From Heaven for Best Original Screenplay, but his actors do get nominated. So, you know, in this case, it's Julianne Moore,

it's Natalie Portman, and it's Charles Melton who play this, you know, an older woman and a younger man who are married and an actress who comes to visit them

to do some research for an upcoming role. That's kind of the framework of the film. Do you think this is getting in? It's a little hard for us to have an opinion about this having not seen it. This is the only one where I'm like, I really genuinely don't know. I genuinely don't know.

I don't, you know. Okay. Let's just, can you have like a little leftovers column down below? A holdover perhaps? Yeah. Yes. I'm going to put, this is an asterisk column. Ridley Scott's Napoleon.

Did you see the news that he shared that the four hour cut of this film will be available, the director's cut, on Apple TV Plus? So he's already doing the Ridley Scott thing. He's actually preemptively doing the Ridley Scott thing where he's like, I have the longer cut ready to go. I just, I love Ridley Scott. And as previously discussed, I like it when people do their thing.

And, you know, I did say write a novel, Cowards, so I guess he took that seriously. Let Ridley cook. Yeah. I just also, editing is good, you know? Debatable. The shows on this pod

are getting longer and longer. I'm not hearing any complaints about that. Ridley Scott's 85 years old. Listen, Sir Ridley rules. Okay? And who am I to tell Sir Ridley what to do? I will probably watch the shortcut first. The shortcut is like three hours and ten minutes.

And all of the extra stuff is like Vanessa Kirby is Josephine, right? I don't know, but it stands to reason that there's more of it. He said that there was a lot of that. So you're opting for less Vanessa Kirby. No, I was just saying. Which is something I would never do. I am going, I will consider both. But I just, this is my thing.

We just got to, we got to decide on a project and we got to finish it, you know? You're giving Ridley Scott notes? No, just like as a world, as human beings. As a world, as human beings. I see. I have a couple of notes for you. As human beings. I see. I have a couple of notes for you. One, we're going to be doing a Ridley Scott Hall of Fame later this fall.

We've just done Martin Scorsese, another one of our oxygenarian geniuses. Will the Ridley Hall be more difficult or less difficult than the Martin Scorsese Hall of Fame? Way harder. Way harder because there's more films? I think because there are fewer just absolute. Debatable? There are more debatables, right? More debatables. And there are fewer just like absolutely.

There are fewer Ellsworth Kelly Greens, you know? Okay. I also wanted to share with you. I think we botched the Scorsese Hall of Fame. I told you in real time that we just needed to do Mean Streets. Mean Streets needed to go in. That was a huge mistake.

Listen, I know. Casino, I don't know what I was thinking. That needed to come out. I have so many regrets about After Hours. I don't know who fucked it so bad.

Listen, I told you we were being too cute with Mean Streets. But I really like Alice Doesn't Live Here Anymore, so that's fine. The casino thing, well, we made the right decision. I don't feel good about it.

Okay, well. I just don't feel good about it. So I just want everyone, thank you to everyone who sent us the TikTok of Scorsese and his daughter, you know, doing slang. Which, like, I think probably 40 different people sent it to us. Many people shared it with us. And I appreciate each and every one of you. I did watch it. I did too.

And it was really funny. And the King of Comedy thing was incredibly funny. And I was also like, that's right. And we got that right. That was never negotiable. Yeah, we didn't even quibble over it. So you can be in your feelings about After Hours, but like... And I don't think a lot of people took issue with us praising King of Comedy

the biggest feedback that I got was that we underrated Bringing Out the Dead and it makes me want to revisit it can I tell you something this is how

addled I am there's no Blu-ray of Bringing Out the Dead I only have it on DVD and it doesn't look good and so every time I pop it in I'm like

I just can't get synced into it even though it's Paul Schrader and Scorsese and the kind of continuation so that's a movie now

having done that exercise and hearing from people and I appreciate the feedback that I want to go and revisit. Okay. And maybe I'll change my opinion about it. Because even Chris

kind of I think offhandedly dismissed it. He was like, eh, it's not that great. But that was the one that made me think, did we get that wrong? People who are like,

the aviator needs to go in. The aviator? No, sorry. That's like a small time opinion I don't really get that one okay let's go back so Napoleon on the one hand

I haven't seen it I think is like extraordinary yeah on the other hand I feel like Ridley Scott has entered like it's negligible

territory where people are like eh Ridley whatever people suck I agree I know but that's I understand what you're saying,

but it does have Joaquin Phoenix and Vanessa Kirby. But then I do feel like there is a sort of fatigue for these giant, like, costume battles. I think it's unfortunate for a movie like this also to be in the same year as Oppenheimer. Yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah.

Because, I mean, I haven't seen mean? Yeah. Because I'm not comparing what the movies are necessarily, but these portraits of these critical men to our kind of military history and how they led. Yeah. It does pale a bit compared to what Oppenheimer achieves, in my opinion,

because it's not as totalizing. I appreciate it. You're in my opinion that you added on there. No, Oppenheimer is great. I think that we need to move Anatomy of a Fall into the holdovers category. Okay. Respectfully to Anatomy of a Fall. Okay. And we can put Napoleon there as well. Okay. I'm with that. And we can revisit. I'm going to keep them in alphabetical order because I know that's important to you. It is. Thank you very much for respecting my process. The next film we're going to talk about is Ny is. Thank you very much for respecting my process. The next film we're going to talk about is Nyad.

Have you seen this film? I have. I told you I saw this film. Oh, yeah. Okay. I'm the only person. I saw it alone in a screening room. We're recording. Sure.

Right, right, right. Let's make magic. Well, sometimes you, sometimes. I know. I do a lead in where I'm like, you've now seen this film, Amanda. Tell us what you thought. It's like sometimes on the podcast the outside world like is part of the reality and then sometimes we're just like in the reality of this which would you prefer

i as you know i like pure chaos like everything is everything is copy everything is copy all right yeah um true to the spirit of your hero yeah of course so in the spirit of Nora Ephron, what would she say about Nyad? She would have like honestly 30 minutes about the jellyfish mask. And like a whole riff about the jellyfish mask and aging probably. Let me ask you this. Did you think it was entertaining? Yeah. I did too. Yes, absolutely.

And everything that had to do with like the actual swim yep or like the many swims as the case may it was like really gripping i also just want to say jerry foster incredible i loved her i thought she was great i i think in the realm of like is this the best picture of the year it's kind of a joke to be talking about that. But I enjoyed it. Yeah, of course. And controversies aside, you know, obviously. Like, not even that. There are just some, this is, you know, it's a biopic. So there's some backstory stuff that I just is not handled how I would like it to be handled.

There are a couple of CGI decisions, too, which I think are wild swings that do not work at all. Yeah. But for the most part, when it's just Annette Bening and Jodie Foster being human beings talking, I would watch any movie with these two people being charismatic. So it's definitely not a Best Picture contender in my

mind, but could be in acting. Could be. It needs to break right, I think, for Annette Bening and Jodie Foster because Best Actress in particular is very competitive this year. We didn't even say the name Carey Mulligan from Ice Show Best Actress in particular is very competitive this year. We didn't even say the name Carey Mulligan from Ice Show, but another thing that is sort of regulatory. Nor did we say the name

Lily Gladstone for Killers of the Flower Moon. Yes. So those are two major contenders for Best Actress. They're both running in Best Actress, even though there probably is a case that they both could category fraud their way in another category.

No way. I mean, they could, but I think that they should both run in Best Actress. I think Jodie Foster could run in Best Supporting. Agree. Yes, she would. And could get a nomination. I could see her there. I don't think she would win, but she could get a nomination.

No, no, no. But I could see her being nominated in Annette Bening getting shouldered out, which would be tough. That would be only poetic, as has been happening to Annette Bening for the shouldered out, which would be tough. That would be only poetic, as has been happening to Annette Bening for the last 20 years. I know. Oppenheimer.

Did you happen to notice the Owen Gleiberman The Last Hour of Oppenheimer is actually the best hour piece in Variety over the weekend? No. So he wrote a column in which he was like, I dismissed the first hour, the first time or two that I saw the movie. And having rewatched the movie.

Dismissed the last hour. The last hour. Sorry, the last hour. And he was like, to me, this movie was always a movie about the bomb and the Trinity test. And I felt like the movie lost its energy. And so I read the piece with some interest. I'm not sure I agreed with all of his takeaways. But I thought of you.

I thought of you as I read it. Thanks so much. Yeah. I always think of you when I'm thinking you as I read it. Thanks so much. I always think of you when I'm thinking of great movie minds coming to extraordinary realizations. Sure. We're going to talk about Fair Play later this week. Yeah, yeah. And I'm, I just, we're going to have an Alden Ehrenreich conversation and I'm really excited. Wow. Okay. Don't spoil it. Another movie we haven't even shared our thoughts on. Honestly, I don't even know where I land.

You know, that's going to be just like a real-time exploration. That's going to be like movie therapy. It's like you matched with him on Tinder and you're not quite sure. Should I stay for a drink? Should it be dinner? What should we do? Oppenheimer will definitely be... I don't think the answer is we should ever,

we should do dinner after matching with someone on Tinder. I think, I mean, you and I are like... You should never plan for dinner. Yeah, you and I are quite out of the game on this, but I do think common wisdom holds that the first date is a drink or something where you can get out of there. Asking me what to do on Tinder is like asking me how to fight a dinosaur. I don't have answers. Oppenheimer will definitely be nominated for Best Picture. Yes. I still firmly believe it is the leading contender for Best Picture. Do you agree with that based on what you've seen?

I don't know. I know it's made a lot of money. It certainly has. And I know it's very Academy-y. When we were talking about Barbie, I was thinking about how there is this prevailing feeling that even though Barbie significantly out-earned it at the box office, that somehow Oppenheimer was like the bigger achievement because of it being three hours and shot on film. You mean like the bigger box office achievement or the bigger... I mean more as well. And I just think, I think that it's maybe like the more surprising thing that Oppenheimer did as well as it did. And it continues to do well given its three hour runtime, subject matter, etc. I just don't think it is as successful as it is without the Barbie. And I don't think also that Barbie is quite the phenomenon that it was without Oppenheimer.

I think that that was just a real once in a whatever. Epoch. Yeah. A thing that happened. But I do... Yeah, listen, it's great. I'm glad that major corporations

are making money. $940 million for Oppenheimer. Yeah, well, also, it's also like I'm glad that major corporations are making money. $940 million for Oppenheimer. Yeah, well, also, it's also like IMAX. Yes. Seriously inflates that, right? No question. But that's cool. I enjoyed seeing it on IMAX.

I don't know. I like Oppenheimer a lot. I've seen it three times. I love it. I think it's great. Yeah. I think it's a major achievement. Did you, you saw it second on your double header.

When you saw it for the third time, you did a double header, right? Yes, a haunting in Venice. Sure, yeah. And then a lovely Italian lunch with a drink. Yeah. And then I saw the film Oppenheimer with my wife.

She also liked it but took issue with it. Yeah. And that would be a good one for her to discuss on the pod. Listen, anytime. Okay. I don't think she's going to do that.

I don't think she wants to get the hate mail. You know? You are like john snow you will fearlessly shield and sword in hand enter the fray and battle back the millions you are you are fearless and i applaud you for that i have no idea what you're talking about half the time but i i really admire your guts your chutzpah thank you so much you're a very strong person. Yeah. Eileen, she's like, she's a civilian. Eileen is very strong.

No, of course. No question. But she's a civilian. She's not used to being like, die slow, motherfucker, on Twitter. Where are they going to find her? She doesn't actually have it. She's so smart. I mean, I know that she does, but she just, she goes, she types in like twitter.com backslash Sean Pennessy, you know?

She lurks. Okay.com backslash Sean Pennacy, you know? She lurks. Okay. So Oppenheimer's in. Past Lives, our beloved Past Lives. Yeah. So we have to talk about The Morning Show in this context. I've never, I haven't seen it. I know that.

Oh, because Greta Lee is on it. But Greta Lee is on The Morning Show and has been given an enhanced role in season three. An enhanced role? Yes. Meaning like she's covered in CGI? She's like Navi? I wouldn't put it past them. Do you know that for some reason they sent three characters to space in the first episode?

And like legit Jon Hamm, Billy Crudup, and Reese Witherspoon were like in a zero gravity like machine. They're like floating around. Like they felt the need to do a space set piece yeah in episode one they also i'm sure you've heard by now did a whole jan 6 set piece i did hear about that on the watch podcast um yeah that which bill predicted and i inadvertently predicted the other half of. I guess I don't want to spoil it for people. Does Trump win? But it's so dumb. The show is just, it's astonishing.

And what they're- Do you think this is helping or hurting Greta? I'm very nervous that it's going to lose Greta Lee, her Oscar nomination. But no one's watching the movie show. That is true.

But also, like, I think more people are than you would think. I think it's watching the morning show. That is true, but also, like, I think more people are than you would think. Okay. I think it's sort of a secret hate watch. Oh. In the biz?

Yeah. So, there's that. Anyway, Greta Lee was astonishing in Past Lives, which is a wonderful film, and I hope she is nominated.

I don't know whether it's gonna make it in. I don't know. It was so early make it in. I don't know. It's so early in the year. But then Everything Everywhere was even earlier and won literally everything. That's the thing. There's so few films this year that came out before Oppenheimer and Barbie that are contending.

This might be the only one, right? I mean, I guess if you think that Spider-Verse or something is going to contend, but I don't really see that. So you're putting past lives in the asterisk. How many do we have right now? One, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight. Nine. So. Five more to go through here.

No, no, no. We only have eight. We have one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight. American Fiction, All of Us Strangers, Barbie, Color Purple, Holdovers, Killers of the Farmer. You moved Anatomy of the Fall. Yeah, I moved Anatomy of the Fall. Yeah, I moved Anatomy of the Fall. I really hate pitting the two emotional indies against each other, but also it's the Oscars. So there's a little bit of like

of an all of us strangers past lives thing. Like, do I think both will get nominated? Let me pose this to you right now. Yeah. As of now, there are no pose this to you right now. Yeah. As of now, there are no A24 films on our list. Right. So, but that's what I, the flip side is that A24 is very good at this. And I think Past Lives, because of its head start, a lot of people have seen Past Lives.

And it is loved. Let's put it in for now. Okay. I'm with you. Okay. I'd like to do the same. Poor Things. Yes. You've seen this? You have seen this. You saw it in Venice. Poor Things, no'm with you. Okay. I'd like to do the same. Poor Things. Yes.

You've seen this? You have seen this. You saw it in Venice. Poor Things, no-brainer. Yeah, no-brainer. Can I tell you something I've started watching? Sure. The Safdies, Emma Stone?

Yep. Is it everything you've ever wanted? I'm not allowed to say anything about it. But you're allowed to say that you've started watching it. So they wrote that in the embargoes. They're like, you are allowed to say that you've seen it, but you may not say anything. I've revealed nothing.

Okay. I've revealed nothing. It's a real pleasure doing business with you, having conversations with you. I'm a great conversationalist.

I'll watch that. I'm excited about it. I'm a big fan of the Safdies. Okay. And Emma Stone. What about Nathan Fielder? I watched the first episode of that show that you all lost your mind about.

And I've seen the rehearsal. That's what it was called. That was pretty good. And I'm also working on a project that has been deeply informed by Nathan Fielder's particular brand of neurosis and art. And I enjoy that. Okay. Yeah, I'm a fan. Great.

That was your tease for my tease. Okay. Poor Things is In. Speaking of Emma Stone, Yorgos Lanthimos, you saw that she also participated in a short film directed by Yorgos Lanthimos. Yes, and so then she was also then at the New York Film Festival.

Yes. And that just reminded me that I need to look up the fashion credits for that. She was wearing like a trench coat, like a trench dress but then a trench coat over it.

It was a great look. I gotta say, when I completely fell in love with her in Superbad bad i did not foresee her becoming the actress of her generation like not just like a movie star right but i in many ways really feel like she is the actress of the kind of like mid to late 30s set yes you have always felt that i think a little bit disproportionately because of your personal

love for her i mean she no she's amazing she's gonna win best actress i mean she might win best actress again this year and then get 240 that's yeah and be on this screen streaming series i know but like also margot robbie you know like i think that you always like look aside win one margot how about that well win one my friend okay my friend. Okay. I mean, I greatly appreciate Margot Robbie's work. But, you know, art and commerce. Our 35 under 35, you were like Emma Stone, number one, like undisputed. Yeah, and guess what? I saw the future again.

That was like disputable. How old is Emma Stone? I think that she's like 34. She's 34. I know. It's. 34? She's going to have two Oscars? Maybe she won't. She's very good I know. It's 34. She's going to have two Oscars. She's maybe she won't. She's

very good. Maybe she won't. Poor Things is in. So we've got one more spot. We've got three more films. No, I think that we don't have any more spots. We have no more spots. Yeah, we have no more spots, but I don't think that any of these are going to be nominated. So that's so interesting. So one is Priscilla, which I've now had a chance to see as well, which I quite liked. And we will talk at length about it. Sophia season is such a wonderful time. Great. I'm very happy for you. She's everywhere because like 20th anniversary of Lost in Translation.

She's got the book. She's got all the book signings. Why doesn't David Fincher do what Sophia is doing right now? Where he's like, it's a brand campaign assault. You know, like let's do an anniversary talk about Zodiac. And also, here's my book full of grisly murders that I want to talk about. And here's my lifestyle guide. You know, why can't he team up with like, you know,

why isn't he going on the How Long Gone podcast to talk about all of his favorite. Sophia didn't go on How Long Gone. No, I know. Excuse me. But Fincher, that's the kind of thing Fincher could do. Yeah, he could. You know, that's the bro version of brand expansion. I don't know.

That seems like an opportunity for him. I mean, Sophia's been doing all of this on a smaller scale for some time. Would you go on HowlOn Gone? No, I wouldn't. You would not go on it? No. I have appeared on it. I know.

My husband has. Your husband has appeared on it. Chris Ryan may or may not be appearing on it. Yeah. Well, that's the thing. What do you three have in common? Oh, so many things. So many things.

A great many things. But yeah, one of them being your... A deep spiritual longing for truth. That's a real you're all a bunch of boys to me situation. And I mean that in the best way for all of you. Phoebe Bridgers has appeared on that podcast. I know. And I have another friend, a woman, who appeared on the podcast, but I just, I enjoyed it. I thought Zach was great on it.

He was very funny. I realized that I haven't listened to yours. Were you good? I was in pursuit of animosity. Oh, okay. It's like, I get enough of that. You know what I'm saying? It's kind of like, I have enough of that stuff in my life that I don't need more of that. You know what I'm saying? It's kind of like I have enough of that stuff in my life that I don't need more of it. I don't appreciate your lack of support. I'm sorry. It's just also like I would go on a podcast with Sophia. Okay.

But that's different. Also, let's not equate Sophia and How Long Gone. That wasn't exactly what I was doing. I was making a comparison to David Fincher, which I think is a fair comparison. Sure. No, that is a fair comparison. Two long-time auteurs who have a very specific view of the world. Sure. Whenever they make a film, it's a big deal to us, but not necessarily to the world. But so here's what Sophia's done.

She was in W. I would do that. Shot by Steven Meisel. She was. What is this? This is not like, would I do what Sophia would do. That wasn't what I was asking. Well, you were like, David Fincher should go on How Long Gone.

Would you go on How Long Gone? Yeah. So now I'm doing that. You've extrapolated. Yeah. So I'm extrapolating. But you're not being asked to appear in W. was asking well you were like david fincher should go on how long gone would you go on how long yeah so now i'm doing that yeah so i'm extrapolating you're not being asked to appear she's being honored at the an academy gala which i have not yet received my invite to but i am available i'm sure i can make that happen for you um and yeah you forwarded me like the invite to the book signing for teens and i was like no i want the invite's how you act. You're like one of the Virgin Suicides girls, but for Sophia

instead of Josh Hartnett. No, but also for Josh Hartnett. Oh, sure. You know, it's like really powerful. I'm like that, but for Josh Hartnett

and Oppenheimer. The Jacob Elordi in Priscilla to Josh Hartnett and like Virgin Suicides like pipeline is like really powerful. Is it a pipeline? I don't know what it is.

She has a type. Well, she has a power as well. An ability. She like understands heart throbs in a way that no one else does. Except for Christopher Nolan, frankly. Yeah. Also, he was very good at that.

Yeah. Wonderful. Dr. Lawrence. So great. I loved it. Yeah. We got to go back to where the issue at hand. Priscilla is, I don't think it's going to be nominated.

No, I don't either, but it was wonderful. I liked it. Yeah. I think we should back to where the issue at hand. Priscilla is, I don't think it's going to be nominated for Best Picture. No, I don't either, but it was wonderful. I liked it. Yeah. I think we should, we'll dig in deep. Okay. When it comes out. Saltburn. Have you seen this yet?

No, I want to, but I just, I haven't gotten there yet. Now there's a world where this actually, this does happen. Right. Because this movie I think has been somewhat divisive, but those who love it, love it. Sure. Love it. Well. I also, I had a conversation with some fellow podcasting friends recently, and we talked about the legacy of Promising Young Woman.

Did you have this like on a podcast? On a podcast, yeah. I don't want to say too much. But just to say that that movie. This is how long gone? It was not how long gone. But whether that movie has a, has cultural cachet or not. And the hosts were contending that it does.

Now, you and I had some issues with Promising Young Woman. Yeah. But this is, I think that Saltburn is in many ways a step up from Promising Young Woman. But that movie was nominated for like four Oscars. No, and she won. Yeah, and she won for screenplay. I'm really excited for Saltburn. And here's how I'm thinking

about Salt Burn which is that I'm trying to figure out if I can get a friend to go with me to a screening because it would be very fun to like see it

with someone who has like my similar you know just like Is it Lauren? Oh I didn't mean like I think Lauren should go with you because it's an incredible style

My friend Lauren Sherman who's a writer for Puck yes Lauren no like any friend like I was thinking Oh you just want one friend Yeah I think Lauren go with you. No, okay. Because it's an incredible style. My friend, Lauren Sherman, who's a writer for Puckley. Yes, Lauren. No, like any friend. Like I was thinking. Oh, you just want one friend. Yeah.

I think Lauren would love to go, but I was like your wife. If I could fly out a long lost friend from Georgia, would you go with her? No, I'm just like a friend. Okay. I don't know if I have that many

long lost friends from Georgia, but that's a different podcast. That's very sad. Is that because you had no friends in Georgia? No, I did. Okay. But I don't know.

But you're still in touch with them or? Not as much from high school. So it sounds like you have many long lost friends. Oh, I guess. Well, they're lost. Yeah. Okay. I was more just thinking, you know, active.

I don't want to go to a movie with anyone that I haven't spoken to in 20 years. Okay. You know what I'm saying? I'd like to know what my wife thinks of this. So maybe you should go with her. That's kind of what, but like, I meant more, you know, like a mall margaritas type situation. Remember when you and I went before like Ticket to Paradise,

which is like, I don't mean to compare the two, but I'm like, oh, I think this will be fun and fun to talk about. We're going to a movie tomorrow at 9.15 in the morning. Do you think we should have mall margaritas?

Oh, sorry. I have to leave my house at 9.15. Right, so do I. But should we go have margaritas first before that? We can do it afterwards. I can't. I got to go so do I. But should we go have margaritas first before that? We can do it afterwards. I can't. I gotta go to a meeting.

That's your problem. That's my life. We gotta get to the end of this. Salt Burn, I don't think is going to be nominated. Okay. I reserve the right

to be wrong about that. Okay. Listen, I'm very excited to see it. Also, just more Jacob Elordi in my life is really positive for me. It's gonna be a fun

conversation for us. It's gonna to be a fun conversation for us. It's going to be a movie that goes into the internet. Yeah. So we will discuss it when it arrives. The Zone of Interest, which is certainly among the best films I've seen this year. I saw Richard Brody came off the top rope and was like, this movie actually sucks. Oh, yeah. Did you see that?

Yeah, I did see that. I thought that was a horrendous take. But you know what? Again, I respect his power and his willingness to go against the grain. Yeah. He is endlessly entertaining and a very thoughtful critic. I have no idea what he's talking about, willingness to go against the grain. Yeah. He is endlessly entertaining and a very thoughtful critic. I have no idea what he's talking about, like 40% of the time. Yeah.

So you feel this is not going to be nominated? Well, I haven't seen it, so it's a lot. I mean, obviously, I'm like deeply anticipating it, but I don't. See, this is what I think. I think Past Lives could be chopped in favor of this. In favor of Zone of Interest. I think you're totally right. Because that is an A24 film. Yeah.

This is a film, you know, with a great deal of historical significance. It is avant-garde in some ways that would be unusual for the Academy. Right. So it's not a lock by any means,

but my instinct is to take past lives off and keep the Zone of interest in. Okay. It's hard for me to say since I haven't seen it. And it hasn't really, was it at the New York Film Festival? It was. Yes.

So that's why Brody started with his thing. His anti-campaign. Right. It's rolling out. Here are the 10 films you've selected. Yeah. American Fiction, All of Us Strangers, Barbie, The Color Purple, The Holdovers, Killers of the Flower Moon, Maestro,

Oppenheimer, Poor Things, and The Zone of Interest. Now, fascinatingly, only two of those movies have been released. So we are playing a wild game. Now, we do this once a month.

Yeah. From September. Through March. For the Academy Awards. We do the power rankings. I didn't know that. Until you just said it. But.

Makes sense though right? It does. No it's great. It's great. I just do what the spreadsheet tells me. Okay. Well I'm going to keep that in mind. And put some wild shit on there.

For the next month. You always do. That's true. But I can go crazier. You know the terrible movies. I watched for this podcast. Because you had them in the spreadsheet? But I'm just trying to guess as to what's going to be relevant and I don't know. I know.

It's been, I mean, as you were just saying, only two movies have been released. We are in the kind of last. The home stretch. Well, we're like in the slow part before the home stretch, you know? And so like it's a lot of mid movies September was dreadful yeah dreadful

yeah why does September keep being dreadful I don't know this feels that feels like a great time for films well I mean this year

it's because of I think in large part because of the strike and because people can't promote and can't release movies without promotion you're right so

alright you feel good about these 10 yeah pretty good we've left Anatomy of a Fall May, December Napoleon and Past Lives

on the Outer Ring I think that's probably correct I'd like to see Anatomy of a Fall make a move this film opens in this Friday

October 13th in New York and Los Angeles and honestly it's a 2 hour and 20 minute French German English film but it's pretty commercial.

I agree that it's like very commercial in certain... In some ways. Yeah. In some ways. It has a real true crime element to it that I think people will find appealing. So we'll talk about that soon. Let's go now to my conversation with Grant Singer. Thanks, Amanda.

Grant Singer is here. Grant, your first narrative feature film is here. It's Reptile. You got your start as a music video director. I'm fascinated by that transition because it's one we used to hear about all the time. Some of my favorite filmmakers, I assume some of yours, got their start that way. But we don't hear about that as much anymore. I was wondering if you could just talk us through a little bit of how you got started making music videos before we get into Reptile. So I went to film school, wanted to be a filmmaker, director,

and I think like you, subconsciously, I was aware that there was a path, like from Fincher to Spike Jonze, Michelle Gondry, Mark Romanek, great directors had sort of made that leap. And it felt like, well, I was in New York at the time, friends of mine were in bands making music. And I was always the film guy with the camera and started documenting our lives and making videos for them. And it kind of just spiraled into a career and all of a sudden a music video director. And I kind of just went with it. So how does that work? Are you're, you're friends with artists and then you're saying, I want to be the director of your music video. And I also want to get paid for this. Like how,

how do you actually like nurture the career part of making something with your friends? Right. So in the very beginning, um, it wasn't like, oh, I'm going to just, uh, make this a career. It was sort of like just a natural progression, almost like documenting my friend's lives and doing these, uh, making their visuals for their music, um, like visual accompaniments essentially. And after one or two of those, I was like, okay, I'll make a music video. And again, there's like no budget. I'm director, DP, editor, gaffer, grip, catering. I mean, it's everything. It's just a one man show. I'm like a camera in one hand, a light in the other. And it was really fun. It was free. I felt like I was just making stuff. And even at that point, it wasn't like it was free I felt like I was just making stuff

and even at that point it wasn't like oh I'm going to turn this into a career it just felt like it almost felt like hanging out you know but I was just the person who knew how to operate a camera and liked being behind the camera and just started making stuff with friends and then an artist would you know reach out and say hey I liked your video I like this thing that you made would you ever want to like make a video together I said yeah that sounds great and it was just this excitement to to be behind the camera and then I think again at some point there was this moment where I'm like oh maybe I can like make this a career um and it just kind of escalated it was like one I've always approached my whole career which is like a door opens you go through it and you kind of just don't think you just do. And that's really what happened.

In the back of your head, were you thinking this will be a way for me to be a feature filmmaker? Yeah, I think it was, I knew that that was always the ultimate goal. Um, but again, it felt so far out of reach. You think also making movies is such a dream for so many people, but I think also feels quite daunting to even get to that opportunity. So it was a great way for me to develop my skills as a director and sort of understand the process of directing and do it in a way where the stakes weren't so high like I can't even imagine being in your mid-20s I've always like looked up to PTA and people who make masterpieces in their 20s but the idea of like being you know fresh out of college and and trying to make a feature film of you know felt quite daunting so um this is a way to do things that maybe on a little bit of a lower scale. I know Sky Ferreira is a friend and someone we made a lot of videos with I love that record that she put out which is now almost 10 years old which is crazy to think about yeah you know

she I assume was a like a friend at the time yes and someone who shows up in Reptile yeah but what is the transition like going from someone like that who you're close with or you had a personal relationship with and a kind of consistent collaboration with to someone like The Weeknd, who maybe you didn't know, or, you know, like more for hire with a musician and trying to gain their trust? Right.

So with Sky, we met through mutual friends, started making her music videos, ended up being roommates, actually, and really funny stories about how a lot of those videos came about but again it was like it with her especially and it felt so full circle and i'll talk about casting her in reptile because on the first day of my first movie she's in the first scene that scene at the dive bar with her and benicio and it was just like this moment for life for me for like wow wow, after all this, my first day, 7 a.m., I'm shooting with her with Benicio. It just felt like total dream come true, you know, and everything felt like full circle.

But I've always approached directing music videos very organically. So even when like Abel, The Weeknd, you know, they reached out for me to make the first video I did for The Hills, had a conversation with him and his creative director. And it wasn't very dissimilar to the way I approach making stuff with people that I'd already knew. It was just, I would describe myself as affable. And I like just the organic way of making something, collaborating almost through friendships. And I would, if you ask the artists that I've worked with from Lorde to whoever, I think they would probably say, oh, yeah, it's just like conversations. We're hanging out and we get inspired and then we have this idea and it's not so formal. I've never approached my career in that sort of through that formal way.

Just it's very natural. I'd say the whole time where you, you know, as you're going on, you're working with bigger and bigger artists. Are you scheming on when to make a feature or a documentary like you did? How do these things develop? Are you like, I have a script idea that I really want to get off the ground. Like what is the trajectory once you've established yourself as a,

you know, a successful music video director, then what? I think at some point, I can't recall that exact moment, but I think maybe 2014, 2015, the videos that I was doing were bigger and bigger. And I was working with these really, you know, enormous and tremendous and amazing artists. And, um, I felt like, okay, well maybe there is a path forward. You know, there is a path to make a feature film. And, um,

I, I always knew that I, I felt like there's so much pressure with your first movie that almost has to articulate, not just your vision for the story, but also like who you are as a filmmaker, like what is the path they're going to take and your trajectory for what kind of movies you're going to make, you know, what is your identity as a filmmaker? And I knew that this was the kind of movie Reptile would be. It has a very specific sense of feeling, but it's also a crime thriller, obviously. And it is in many ways, a love letter to the kind of movies that I love in the past. But it also felt like the right introduction to me as a feature filmmaker. I think when you make music videos, they can be a spectacle. And they should be. Because if the song is enormous, the video has to kind of match up to that.

And it has to be memorable. And it has to almost feel iconic in some way. So people can think about the video the same way they can think about the song. And what I was trying to do with Reptile in many ways was I was, I think, rebelling against that. I think my favorite shots in the movie, my favorite sequences in the movie are very restrained and minimalist. And it's just like they're very classical. And I think making this film, it was the first time I got to do something that was aesthetically me. You know what I mean?

And again, I'm not sure if that answers your question no it does I'm really curious because I love movies like this as well like I can feel the influence

the things that you like kind of what you're drawing from but there it's kind of it's kind of a rare genre now at least in film

it's more really more the provenance of TV at this point the kind of foreboding crime thriller with like you know

some wry humor underneath it. And also this kind of like severity intensity. Um, is it hard to make this the movie that you were able to pop with? Well, you bring up a great point, which I think this genre is, has, has kind of segued into television and, um, there's more time to explore the characters and uh just filmmakers i guess have have found that avenue um to explore it but i i i think original crime thrillers yeah certainly i don't know if we see them as often anymore this film like i can talk about my inspirations but there's so many movies that have inspired me but you know it's funny because like the films that

really inspired this, whether it be In Cold Blood or Night of the Hunter or things like Serpico, yeah, you don't see them pop up as much. But I think it was important to me to make something that just felt, it just felt right. Like this was the movie I wanted to make. Ben, my co-writer and i when we wrote this script um it just it was first of all we wanted to make a movie that evoked this feeling of being deceived right there was all these little things we wanted to do we wanted to

portray the hunter as the hunted that coppola does so beautifully in the conversation we wanted to sort of we wanted to um create a prologue where you sort of pass the baton and change protagonist, you know, 10, 15 minutes into the movie. There's all these things, like things that we're kind of checking off, right? And we wanted something to happen halfway through the film.

And then it sort of transitions into more of an internal character piece and the unraveling of someone's mind and conscience and things like that. When you say you wanted to make all those decisions, which are maybe things that I'm not consciously recognizing when I'm watching the movie, but you're right, it does. The film sort of opens with this young real estate agent couple,

sort of cut family on the rise, and there's maybe something going wrong in their relationship, but we're not quite sure what it is. And then it does ultimately sort of become a detective thriller. Yeah. And it moves to the Benicio Del Toro character. So why did you want to do that? What spurred the idea between you and Ben when you're talking about it, where you're like, we want to make a shift just because you'd never seen it. Or is it something that you saw that you wanted to find a

way to pay homage to? You know, I think, well, a couple of things. One, I love, I love being manipulated as a, as a, as an audience, as a viewer, right? I love the feeling of experiencing something and then as the movie unfolds, it recalibrates what it is that you thought at that particular moment. You see it, I think, really well in the conversation with Gene Hackman and the couple and you think that they're potential victims of a crime and hitchcock um and you see it done obviously most in in psycho you know it different that happens maybe a third of the way through i don't know when she dies but um it's uh it's just a it's a format that i i for some reason uh we were we were inspired by and again i think with movies at least in regards to just speaking for myself the things that i'm attracted to or drawn to it's so subconscious

you know i i don't i can't pinpoint like i want to do this because of this or i feel like this it's like it's very intuitive like this just felt right these things in the movie felt right like um we've uh Ben Benicio and I discussed you know the his character Benicio character and you know we've all seen the detective thriller the detective story where who's um obsessed with the case and can't sleep and his whole life is this thing and we thought it would be so interesting to to make this character more three-dimensional and human and relatable by well again he's investigating this case but he's also in love with remodeling his kitchen and it just there's a levity to it there's a playfulness and you know the film can be uh there can be be a sense of sort of imposing dread this sort of um unease um and unnerving feeling and but it's there's a counterbalance to the levity and the playfulness and the humor of the film too and

that tonal shift that tonal counterpoint i think was something i was always trying to do because i do like the genre and i do like these movies, but sometimes they can be a little austere. And then there's nothing wrong with that. But I felt a desire to make it tonally more all-encompassing and, you know, punch in different directions in terms of feeling. Yeah, that's part of what I liked about it was, you know, that sequence early in the movie where, you know, Benicio comes home and the folks who were working on this house have clearly messed something up and they're apologizing. And you're not used to seeing a sequence like that in a movie like this. We've just seen a grisly murder and then we watch this happen. And it actually contributes to the foreboding sense in the movie where you're like, what the fuck is going on here?

Like, why are we spending time on this right now? Is this going to contribute to the story that we're being told? Or is this just a deepening of the character or something else entirely? That was a very smart choice. Like, but that being said, how do you create tone in a movie is something I wanted to ask you. Like, how do you hold a sense of foreboding where you're kind of holding onto your seat the whole time and saying like, what is really happening here? What am I supposed to be following? Who is really responsible for this? Like, how do you do that as

you're working on a, you know, a long piece like this? Well, that's a great question. Um, for me, the things that I'm most excited by when I either, when I make a movie or even just in discussing things are things that are peripheral to the story the character stuff and like the scene you're talking about is kind of peripheral to the crime but it it is uh it deepens the character it deepens the world it makes it more human it makes it more alive and it is unusual to see scenes like there's a scene that like the scene you're talking about in the kitchen, but also the scene with Benicio and the contractor later in the dance hall, the square

dance hall. I think we're not used to seeing scenes like that in these kinds of thrillers because they're a little bit peripheral to the A-plot. And I love that I was given the opportunity both by my producers in the studio to explore these scenes that may not often make the cutting room floor. Because to me, they shade the movie so beautifully. And it's the stuff that that i find most exciting about the film is the is the is the shades of gray that are a little bit outside of the central plot but just make the world and the atmosphere the atmosphere atmosphere so um rich i guess you could say. Is there a significant difference between working with like Lorde or Abel or Sky and the kind of heavyweight actors in the film, Benicio, Eric Bogosian, Alicia Silverstone?

These are really veteran performers. Yeah. Like, can you talk about making that transition? So we'd sent Benicio the script and he responded to it and my producers had done Sicario with him and he wanted to meet with me and I met with him and his manager and agent at the time. And it was rapid fire questions, two hours of bam, bam, bam. And it's like, this is Benicio del Toro sitting exactly where you are across from me at this conference room table.

And it's incredibly daunting because this is someone who is not only a legend, but in my opinion, I think absolutely one of the greatest living actors. And when Benicio looks at you, he looks through you. I think he's known for the sort of heaviness and eye contact. He's got a real weight to his persona but I found it incredibly exhilarating and so in regards to your question about that leap or that jump from music videos to to film it's certainly a a different it is a jump but in many ways like I do remember making the video for Can't Feel My face and at the time that video that song was like the biggest song in the world and I had this like enormous pressure to deliver a video that was hopefully somewhere in the realm of where the where the

song was in the psyche of the of the culture and I thrived off that pressure like I thrive off that feeling of like I have to deliver and certainly working with actors of that caliber from Benicio to Eric to Alicia to Justin to Michael Pitt whoever everyone else in auto there is that similar desire like well now I'm working with great actors right I have to make the most of this opportunity and and just do it is the language the same is the way you're talking to them the same as musicians it's different i think with the way i approach directing and working with actors is first of all i articulate my vision or the articulate what my ideas are as uh completely and fully as i possibly can so there's no like i'm gonna try and mislead you or or or or get something out of you

no games by no games like i i talk to them the way i'm talking to you where i'm just trying to be as eloquent and uh and as uh transparent about what is i'm doing from the point where i will play them pieces of music and like this moment's going to feel like this and then this and we rack focus and we do this and then like I try and let them into my brain as much as I possibly can and I feel like first of all that's amazing because oftentimes whatever your ideas are they bring it to life in a completely new way but also they're very smart and they've been doing this for a long time. So they're like, okay, I got it. I know exactly what you're looking for.

And seeing them inhabit these characters and seeing them, there's no greater feeling because they're bringing it to life in a way that it's just, it's tremendous. And it feels very surreal, actually. What was different or difficult about making the transition to making a feature? Something that surprised you that you didn't see coming? I think the consecutive days, just like the act of making a movie. People don't always talk about the process. There is, there's no breather. I mean, on the weekends, you're just trying to catch your breath and reset your body clock.

But it's every day is just like and also the script was so long and however many days we had we were shooting five six pages a day which is for your listeners it's it's it's a lot you know and especially in a movie that um is very precise and razor sharp in terms of the way that it's constructed it's very formal and classical um so we're not hosing things down um and it it just requires you to move at a pace that is very fast and i don't know if anyone or i could have prepared myself for that it's this this relentless um you know, everydayness. How many days did you guys shoot? I, I, I think 50,

some, or like low fifties, I think 49. I can't remember something around there. This is kind of a step back, but it, it goes to the step forward. Um,

why Netflix? Like how did it become a Netflix film? So, uh, we were developing it with our producers, black label media. We're fantastic. Um, and, uh, just instantly believed in the vision and for the movie. And a few months before we started shooting, I got a call saying, what do you think about doing this with Netflix?

And I was just, listen, I was just so grateful to make the movie. I was like, are you kidding me? Yeah, that's amazing. And they really, the producers really handled that. I just knew that we were in pre-production and looks like Netflix was coming on board and they really liked the vision. And, uh, I think we're interested in also the casting and what this movie could be. And once you get Benicio and Justin, all these actors, it becomes like more of a movie movie. Um and they've been fantastic they were really you know supportive and encouraging did you get a sense of what it was that they aside from obviously the

vision in the script like what they believed in or why this was a film that fit with what they're trying to do so i don't know if i can fully answer that but i know that um goes back to your earlier earlier question which was that well they don't make original movies like this as often as anymore. Obviously, you see Fincher do it, what they saw the potential of it. But they were very excited by the film and by what we were doing. And they were just tremendous and, you know, really believed and got on board. So it was great. Yeah, I'm always fascinated by not just what is being made, but why it is being made. Yeah. Like, I love, love this genre.

This is one of my favorite genres as well, which is why I responded to the movie. But I kind of miss it. And I like Mare of Easttown and Night Of, and I like those shows. They're great. But a contained story like this feels more rare. And so I'm always curious if distributors or streamers are like, we do need to make these.

Or if this was a rare opportunity for this group of people making this movie. Yeah, I mean, whatever conversations they had, I wasn't a part of in terms of why they decided to pursue this and collaborate on the project, but I'm certainly so grateful. To make a movie in general, I mean, it requires a series of miracles. Just to even get to that, like, day one, 7 a.m., I'm on set with Benicio and Sky, you know, like, in auto.

I mean, it was just kind of like, I remember feeling that when I got to set. Wow, this is really happening. This took so much work, but also, like, the kindness of others to get on board and just a series of things that you don't you don't necessarily have control over but are incredible when they work out in your favor uh so you know it's not something i take for granted what was it like after you'd finished shooting the film and you're looking at what you've shot and you're trying to put it together are you like i got it i didn't get it like, tell me a little bit about the post-production process for something that you've just spent

50 some odd days working on. We cut the film out of order. My editor, Kevin Hickman, who's amazing. And I basically just spent a year with him in a room without any windows. So we've gotten very close. We started cutting certain sequences that I had, I think, strong ideas.

Like I think one of the first sequences we cut was halfway through the film. There's a sequence where Benicio's character is speaking to a therapist, right? And it's a little bit like a montage set to music. It was one of the first things we cut. And the reasons why we did that were because I felt like it's a little bit of a departure in terms of structure than the rest of the film. But by cutting that first, it would allow us the freedom to – it would sort of show us where our boundaries were with what the movie was. That sequence is a little bit more poetic and lyrical and musical and free. So I felt like we had it. Yeah, I felt like we had a movie.

I felt like we had something there. But again, this is my first film. So it's like every experience that you have is the first time. And it's like, you'll never forget it. Like just, it's, there's also, there's, of course, there's doubt. Of course, there's confidence. Of course, no, I know I have it. I know there's suspense.

You know, I'll be honest. I didn't know how suspenseful the film was when I shot it. It wasn't until we tested it and we showed it to friends and family. They were like, wow, this specifically, this specific act. They're like, oh my God, I was on the edge of my seat. I'm like, oh wow, really? That's great. You know, it was like,

you asked a question earlier about tone. I feel like that's one thing I have a very good grasp on. Like if there's certain, everyone has strengths and weaknesses. I feel like tone, I really knew what the tone was. And I knew instantly, I mean, I knew on set we were getting the tone. I was completely confident about that. But then there's things of like pacing and obviously the film um can be propulsive but it can still feel like it's

restrained in this ominous unsettling dread that is at a very specific pace um but there are things that you kind of calibrate people have remarked about the editing of the movie, how it's sort of, it's very particular. And I like films that are very rhythmic and have this sort of, this musical feel to them. And I think the film does have that rhythmic quality to it. What's an example of that?

And other movies. Yeah. Well, I would actually argue that Vertigo is very rhythmic um that film is so is like first of all my favorite movies of all time but also the bernard herman score provides such a sense of feeling and it's almost in dialogue with the imagery and the performances like they they're in conversation with one another like jimmy stewart will um will stop speaking and at that one moment and the music comes in and they're they're really like

there's a very there's a rhythmic quality to and that film is so seductive and it's when i say rhythmic i'm not talking about like percussive quality i'm talking about the rhythm of the movie the way the the movie and the music are dancing with one another i think vertigo is certainly a film i think that lynn ramsey movie um the one she did with joaquin has incredible you were never really here it's phenomenal it was phenomenal and like that movie is so rhythmic yeah um and propulsive and like yeah that's a film i remember seeing loving the rhythm of it that's a really interesting concept you mentioned you know screening the movie and showing it to friends and family. And then, you know, it being a Netflix film, you have this complicated way of like receiving

feedback. Historically, you release a film, it opens in theaters, you get reviews, you get a box office report, and then, you know, you've settled on where you're at. With Netflix, on the one hand, it's in this closed system. On the other hand, we have social media. We have a much wider way of seeing what the feedback is. Are you looking at that? Do you care about that?

How do you judge the success once it's out in the world? I don't know. It's asking that question in a couple of weeks, but I do think there was this moment for me once Netflix came on board where I realized, wow, this is going to be seen by a lot of people. And a lot of my influences, filmmaker influences or movie influences, they can be a little bit left of center. You know, like I'll never forget an executive, you know, just anyway, the point is like. Tell that story.

Come on. you know just anyway the point is like tell that story come on he said he an executive at one point said this is cool I mean earlier drafts were more like

Lost Highway or like a little bit more lynchy he's like I want more you know less Lost Highway more Chinatown he said something like that I laugh

because obviously I love Chinatown but when you make a movie with Netflix certainly as a director. It's an incredible classic executive note. He said, yeah, less Lost Highway, more Chinatown.

If you can get close to either one of those, you did a good job. Oh, my God. By the way, you know, I always think of film as dream. Like my favorite films, whether, like, I don't want to say favorite, but movies that changed my life, right? Whether it be Lost Highway, Shoeshine, Wild Strawberries, Vertigo. These movies feel like dreams. They feel like, they articulate and they capture something

that's so beyond the real world. But I think when there was a moment for me, once we realized we were doing this with Netflix, where you just realize how many eyeballs are going to see this. That is pressure. Because I don't care who you are. It's like if you were the Velvet Underground, you're playing this amazing performance in front of 100 people in the Lower East Side in 1970. That's very different than playing that same performance in front of 100,000 people, whatever the largest venue in the Lower East Side in 1970, that's very different than playing that same performance

in front of 100,000 people, whatever the largest venue in the world is. It requires you to access a different part of yourself because you're very conscious of who this is for and who's going to be seeing it. And perhaps there's a part of you that wants to make something a little bit more universal or satisfying to those people.

Yeah, I mean, that's very thoughtful thoughtful and you don't really hear that very often in the, in this particular landscape, but yeah, there's, there's hundreds of millions of Netflix subscribers. And like Lost Highway was not made for more than 5 million people on earth. You know, that's not a film that's not going to be seen by that many people. It's, you know, there are movie stars in it, but it's, it's, it's truly a singular vision from an art house filmmaker. Yeah. So when you are doing that, when you are doing that compromise in your mind or imagining like how this will be, something like this will be received. Like what do, what do you do? Do you change it? Do you compromise? Do you,

is there something you would have done differently at the outset if you knew it was always going to be received by so many people? That's a great question. First of all, I would love 200 million people to watch Jeremy, uh, Robert Blake's performance, uh, in that party scene. That would, that would change the world, I think, in amazing ways. Uh, you know, it is a, it's a very good question. I'm sure subconsciously, yes, there's things that there were decisions that I made throughout the process of directing the movie that had the audience in mind. I think I wanted to evoke this feeling of not knowing. Like I think that the mysteries that are most lasting tend to be the most hidden and enigmatic and hard to understand and uh so it's like how do you make a feeling that you want to evoke this feeling

of deception this feeling of being deceived this feeling of not knowing but also make something that was satisfying for the viewer that's a that's a that's a conversation you have to have and i think absolutely there were moments where we uh perhaps had the audience in mind being like you know this would be good for the audience to to see this or to think about this because maybe it will be more satisfying for them maybe it will you know you always hear about stories from great filmmakers and the greatest movies ever bring up Vertigo. I know Hitchcock originally took out that sequence of Kim Novak writing the letter and then was told by the studio,

you got to put that back in. But the movie clearly works without that sequence. You see her open the closet. She takes out the gray dress. She has that look from her performance. You know exactly that this is the same woman, and she's having this moment of guilt. In that movie, everyone talks about it's about obsession. It is about obsession, but it's also about the recreation of trauma.

It's about healing through the recreation of trauma. Anyway, we can talk about vertigo later offline but um i think that with any movie i'm assuming with a studio with you know of a certain scale there's always going to be conversations about what to put in and what to take out um and certainly you know this film was no different so uh is the sort of off-kilter crime thriller like going to be the thing that you want to pursue? Are you trying to make different kinds of features? Do you know what you're doing next? I do think I know what I'm doing next.

I think for me, I mean, I don't have a desire to make the same movie twice. I'll tell you that. But I want to, you know, when you make a film, a film it takes first of all years of your life and it takes up every moment of every day and every second of your life so unless it's something that you truly believe in and are truly passionate about and feel like you have to make I can't imagine doing that and the thing that I'm doing next is is different than reptile but I'm sure that you know if an audience sees reptile and sees my next thing and they'll see similarities, but they'll also know that it's a little bit different.

And I want to make things that are alive and intense and visceral and emotional and harrowing and hopefully totally all encompassing and exciting and exhilarating. I do think that like one thing that I experienced while making this film, which is in that test screening in Jersey, watching the audience scream and jump at this moment. I'm not going to ruin this moment for the house, watching their reaction, it was so satisfying to feel like, wow, I made something that people actually felt so deeply. They screamed and jumped out of their seats. An amazing feeling. I became a little bit addicted to that feeling of like,

wow, moving an audience to the point where they're having physical reactions and audible reactions. That's very cool. And that's certainly something that i think you keep it or at least i'm it's in the back of my head moving forward you know interesting yeah i love the way you put that um we end every episode of the show by asking filmmakers what's the last great thing they've seen you're clearly a cinephile what have you seen recently that you love i have to say wild strawberries i re-watched that movie so what i've been what i did after i

made reptiles i'm watching movies from my past and you see them. After you make a movie, it's almost like you see movies completely differently. How so? You see it, like the architecture of the film differently.

Like you look at, I almost watch performance differently. Everything seems new to me. It's like, it's like taking glasses off and seeing the world in a three-dimensional, hyper, you know, it's a real way. See seeing the world in a three-dimensional hyper,

you know, it's a real way. But I see, I usually hear from filmmakers like the opposite is true, which is that you do see the architecture, but that it produces the magic somehow because you're constantly thinking about like, that's how they did that. That's how they did that.

That's how they did that. If anything, I see the magic. I like the magic is more apparent to me. Like I remember I was recently watching Vertigo and watching Jimmy Stewart's performance. And there was this moment where she goes, what have you been doing lately?

This is Mitch's character. And he's obviously at this point, he's obsessed with the Kim Novak character. And he goes, wandering. And the way he says it is like, oh my God. It's the most, it's just, it's a little beat. And it's like, it's a, the shot is probably like, you know, 32 frames long, but it's so most, it's just, it's a little beat. And it's like, it's a, the shot is probably like, you know, 32 frames long, but it's so masterful

and it's so amazing. And it's so inspiring. I'm like, that's, it's just this little moment. But I remember being like, oh my God, I have to rewatch it again. Like that moment just blew my mind, but wandering. And it's like, well, we just experienced an hour of what this guy's been doing.

And the fact that he just throws it away, wandering and the way he says it, that performance blew my mind that one little moment but going back to wild strawberries it does something that film can only do which is it it shows someone who's a voyeur in his own life the ability to to revisit one's past and see it from this omnipresent sort of way. But it's so emotional and devastating and quiet and beautiful. And those sequences, like, in his dreams, in his dream state, it's the most beautiful filmmaking I've ever seen. I know everyone talks about Fellini, of course, but, like, Bergman also, you know.

And I don't know if he, I mean, he does get the credit, but I don't know if he does, actually. Like, some of the most magnificent filmmaking I've ever seen and that movie arrives at an emotional place that is non-verbal but it's so deep

I love films that like leave me speechless and certainly Wild Strawberries is a film that leaves me speechless and did so again recently on my last viewing. That's a great answer. Grant, I like talking to you. Congrats on Reptile.

Thank you so much. I really appreciate it. Great talking to you too. Thank you for having me. Thanks to our producer Bobby Wagner for his work on today's episode. Later this week, Amanda and I will dig into a few new intriguing thrillers. Fair Play, which Amanda just teased. There's another thriller that we'll talk about called The Royal Hotel. And I think we'll talk a little bit about Cat Person, the adaptation of the Kristen Rupinian short story. And I think we have to discuss the sex scene, the role of the sex scene in the movie.

Do you feel comfortable doing that with me? I was thinking about this as I was watching Fair Play. And I was just like, okay, I'm just really going to have to take a deep breath and get through this podcast with Sean, but we can do it. Okay. I believe in you if you believe in me. Thank you. I believe in you. Okay. I believe in the listeners. Thank you for listening. We'll see you later this week.