The Big Picture - Best Picture Power Rankings, ‘Bugonia,’ and the New Paranoid Thriller, With Yorgos Lanthimos!

Episode Date: October 31, 2025

Sean and Amanda kick off the show with a brand-new version of their Best Picture Power Rankings (1:43). Then, they cover Yorgos Lanthimos’s new movie, ‘Bugonia,’ starring Jesse Plemons and Emma Stone. They explain why this is their preferred “flavor” of Lanthimos, crown it as a new type of paranoid thriller, and praise Plemons's and Stone’s incredibly sincere and sympathetic performances (21:31). Later, Lanthimos joins Sean to talk through the difficulties and benefits of shooting the film with a large format in VistaVision, what interests him and intrigues him as a storyteller, and why he has anxiety about the future regarding our inability to communicate with one another (1:01:49). Hosts: Sean Fennessey and Amanda Dobbins Guest: Yorgos Lanthimos Producer: Jack Sanders Unlock an extra $250 at linkedin.com/thebigpicture Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

I'm Sean Fennacy. And this is the big picture a conversation show about Bagonia. Today on the show, we're talking about the new paranoid thriller, comedy, What's It from Yorgos Lantamos, starring Emma Stone,

and Jesse Plemans will also be updating our monthly Best Picture Power Rankings, which may or may not feature Bagonia, gut check, yay or nay. I'm realizing I forgot to scroll to of a document right now. But we had it on the last one. We did. I have a surprise coming for you very shortly about that. Later in this episode, though, I do have a conversation with Yorgos

Lanthamos. He's actually never been on this show before, which is quite strange. Filmmaker we like. We've talked about all of his movies in the last seven or eight years. And very active in the last seven or eight years. Absolutely. He's on this hot streak, three movies in three years. This is his fourth consecutive film with Emma Stone, who is of course my goat. So Yorgos, great guest, very thoughtful guy. And hope people will stick around for that. Coming up next, movie talk. This episode is presented by LinkedIn Ads. Sometimes marketing gets wasted on the wrong people.

Like if you see an ad for movie-themed dog sweaters when you don't even have a pet. Reach exactly who you need with LinkedIn ads with a network of 130 million decision makers they can help you target by job title, industry, company size, or even skills. It's one of the reasons LinkedIn ads generates the highest B2B return on ad spend

of all online ad networks. Seriously, all of them. Try it out. Spend $250 on your first campaign on LinkedIn ads and get a free $250 credit for the next one. Just go to LinkedIn.com slash the big picture. Terms and conditions apply. You know, usually we start the episode by talking about the movie. Today I want to do the power rankings first. Oh, okay. How do you feel about that?

So that then we can talk about the movie and people who only want to listen to the power rankings won't have it spoiled. Let's not explain the podcast mechanics inside of the podcast episode. Well, I was actually thinking about this before we started recording because you made a beautiful outline. You were just blogging through it. And I did add a section to it, which was about the ending, which has been a topic of conversation among those people who have seen it. And I think we can't really talk about the fullness of the movie without discussing it. But obviously, movies like Bologna are like, you know, a slower release, not everyone's seen it. So it's not podcast mechanics.

It's consideration for our audience. I take it back. You're absolutely right. And thank you for adding that section. And also, that is exactly what I was thinking, which is that this would not be a complete conversation about this movie if we did not talk about its entirety. And so I do want to be able to talk about that. So let's talk about the power rankings first. And maybe that will betray some thoughts about Bagonia, but I don't think so.

Okay. So scrolling. Just as a recap, we did this on the episode that we did with Van about the smashing machine the last time. And that was October 1st. It's been about a month. Most of these movies have come out, though not all of them. Yes. Most of them have played at festivals, though not all of them.

And here's where we left it last time. We had Wicked for Good at 10, Frankenstein at 9, Bologna at 8, House of Dynamite at 7, it was just an accident at 6, J. Kelly at 5, sentimental value at 4, sinners at 3, Hammondit at 2. and one battle after another at one. A couple of things have happened since then. Yes. You and I have both seen Marty Supreme. Correct. We still have not seen Wicked for Good or Avatar Fire and Ash.

Correct. I have seen Wake Up Dead Man. Oh, I saw it this morning. Okay, so we can talk about that. You have still not seen train dreams. Monday. We both have seen no other choice. Correct.

And the Testament of Anley. Correct. We are very comfortably able to cross Springsteen deliver me from nowhere off the list. And then the final piece of this puzzle, I think, aside from the two big tent pole movies that are coming, is is this thing on. Right.

Which I see this evening. Oh. And I'm very excited about it. What I've read about it, forget about this best picture power rankings bullshit that we've created here on the show, has got me excited because there's a Jim Brooks movie coming out later this year, but this kind of sounds like the Jim Brooks movie. Yeah.

And I like the idea of Bradley Cooper saying, I'm just going to make a good old-fashioned adult drama. Now, I don't want to get my hopes too high, but I'm actually very excited to go to the movies tonight to see this film. I like the films of Bradley Cooper. So I'm excited to. There is stand-up comedian energy, literally, in this, which, you know, I'm not going to see it tonight, so no one, people have to wait.

That's one concern. And then there's just like a persistent, like, why, you know, with, like, every movie. Not like, why are you trying to make good movies? but there are three, as I understand it, adult dramas about a man who makes art for a living in some sort of personal crisis. And it's hard not to like connect some dots, but not be able to connect a star is born. Oh, he's three movies. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yes.

No. So I'm like. I think it's very easy to psychologically analyze Bradley Cooper. Sure, but I don't have the whole picture, you know? So that's just kind of where I want to be. I get it, I get it. But sure, I'm open. Yeah, I'm very open.

So we can't, that's the one in particular. The scuttle butt out of the New York Film Festival when it premiered was that it is good, but not an Oscar movie, whatever that means. So let's just, let's look at it. We talked earlier this week about the fact that House of Dynamite, given its reception now. Yes. Probably out. I think so. So we can just take that off the board completely.

Is there any other movie here that you look at and think, I don't know, I'm having second thoughts. I don't think you know the fastest riser is clearly Frankenstein which I know is a little bit frustrating for you but it does seem like don't put me on an island okay what do you mean you didn't like Frankenstein either I didn't so it's like just don't say I'm not I'm not begrudging its place in the best picture race that's not what this this this work is about this is about taking a snapshot of the moment say that either I it's clearly on the list but what I'm saying is you don't have to just put me over there this is when my husband whenever he doesn't like something in the house he's like oh i see like you know your like your broccoli

is there or whatever you know and it's always like your thing when i don't want anyone anything to do with it well he and i are very close yeah so and you don't like broccoli but yeah Frankenstein is on the rise sure um whatever whatever people want you know from 20th century studios and the director of prey predator bad lands welcome to the most dangerous planet in the universe. On November 7th, everything this planet is trying to kill you. On this world, you are the prey

unless you become the ultimate predator. Experience it in 3D and IMAX. We might not be alone in this hunt. Predator Badlands in theaters November 7. Get tickets now. Do you feel that one battle after another Hamnet and sinners

have been moved out of the one, two, and three spot at all? I don't. I don't really either. Yeah. You've now seen those three movies. Have you seen sentimental value? I have. Okay.

I need to see it again. How would you say you're feeling about it at four? It's a percolate. It's hard because it's still, is it out yet? It's not. November 7th, yes. November 7th, limited, and then it's not out until I think Thanksgiving in a wide capacity, which is when we will have a long conversation about it.

And it was just an accident, has been out in a very limited capacity. but these are, you know, the kind of, the can one and two movies that are rolling out. And so I can't really say that they're up or down. It's a holding pattern until people and, and I guess, voters can see them more widely. Okay. Jay Kelly. Yeah. Which has had a very circuitous route.

It does not feel like it has had the same spike that Frankenstein has had. No. Also the idea of, you know, the Netflix latest. is complicated. I said earlier this week that there were four movies. There's actually five movies if you include Newville Vogue.

Sure. But you personally don't. I still have not seen it. Yeah, I was mixed on New Vell Vogue and we'll talk about that when we talk about the other link later film Blue Moon, which I thought was wonderful.

Blue Moon probably not competing for Best Picture. Wicked for Good. Yes. One of the things that we did in my house on Monday night was we watched the Lego.

When I was at your home Monday night? It was after you left when we were at corraling bedtime. Okay. The Lego Wicked for Good trailer adaptation. You know, they transform the trailers into like Lego animation. But they're not actually making a full Wicked for Good in Lego. No, they probably should. Okay.

Candidly. Okay. But one of the very first times that I think my daughter spent a lot of time saying, can I look at your phone, was when the first Lego. a wicked trailer came out. And she was like, I need that in me, like, crack now. And we got to look at this one. Okay.

I've seen the Wicked For Good trailer, of course. I'm not anticipating Wicked For Good. I know you're not either. Yeah. But she was like, like, let's go. Like, this is, it is my time now. Listen. And a lot of people do feel that way.

On Jam session this week, Juliet started our recording by just singing Wicked for Good to me. I mean, this was before we hit record. But then she just did, like, a Wicked for Good update segment as a way. Wicked fan. People who care care. Do you know they have written two new songs? I did know that, yes. You did know that. But they have not debuted them yet. They're going to be debuting them on the like variety hour special that Cynthia Revo and Ariana Grande are co-hosting together. Is that on NBC? Yes, the same night as our Big Pick Live event. So if you got tickets for Big Pick Live and you'd rather stay home and watch Variety Show live, honestly, we understand. We should just cancel the show. I feel like people

going to want to stay home for that. Well, it's being filmed at the Dolby Theater, and I thought it was doing live, so I thought that we could actually go from one to the other, but it's pre-recorded, I think. Okay, good to know. Yeah, people are excited. I'm bringing this up because I'm like, I think Wicked for Good is in a good spot right now. I do, too. Of course.

It's never not been on our power rankings. No, I know. He was number 10 last time, and I do feel that it is a bit higher. To me, I feel like Jay Kelly is down a little bit. We'll see if it gets a spike back. and we know House of Dynamites coming off. Adam Sandler did get a Gotham Awards nomination for Jay Kelly supporting performance.

Which is just terrific news. Right, but that was the only one. I feel like Frankenstein is at five and maybe Wicked for Good is at six? Okay. If we're leaving that top four in place, I don't really see a reason to meaningfully change anything about the top four.

Okay. And then you've got the begonia question. Yeah. Setting aside your feelings about the movie, which we'll talk about very shortly, is this a best picture contender? Now, your ghost obviously has the legacy. Right. Because a handful of his films have been nominated for Best Picture over the years. But this, even by his standards, is a bit strange.

Is it? It's strange, and also I felt, of course it's strange. And Emiston shaves her head, like we all know, and they're building stunts around it. It's very conventional until it isn't, and I would say also the thing that it is doing, it is doing a thing that is very similar to Eddington, which put a lot of people off. That's true, but I think... Didn't put us off, but it put a lot of people off. I do think that Lanthamos and Emma Stone are both kind of like carved into the Academy voting firmament. And I've been surprised by the number of conversations I've had with people.

not co-hosts of podcasts about movies who are like anticipating begonia because they know about Emma Stone they know especially from the like the favorite poor things one two of Lanthamos that this is something they should be looking out for and Jesse Plymouth's as well liked I don't

I think it is still in the conversation right now I think you're right I think it's like 10 Okay. I think it's like at number 10. I'm very curious what kind of business this movie does because, you know, his two of his last three movies have actually made basically $100 million at the box office. Right.

There isn't a real audience for these excursions, kinds of kindness notwithstanding. Well, like, what would you want to put instead of Begonia? I don't know. I think it's pretty clear. Oh, we don't have Marty Supreme in here, though. But that's going in the House of Dynamite spot. To me, to me, Marty Supreme, that basically is number seven.

Yeah. Where, like, people loved it at the New York Film Festival. I don't know if it's really seriously competing for Best Picture right now but there's going to be a lot of warmth towards it The Chalemay performance is sick Lights out. It is so good And you know I'm sure we'll talk for six hours

About that movie on the pod It's very big picture coded in a lot of ways But I don't You know So what else could go in place of Bagonia The Secret Agent is just not there right now It's just not to say it can't happen I do want to say, I know you're seeing it this week, we just saw with I'm still here the Brazilian contingent is very powerful. Totally.

And I wouldn't be stunned. We see you. I'm a hundred percent agree and I think that also really applies in the acting categories. Yes. And to me, and which we have said. And Bagonia and the Secret Agent kind of have something in common, which is that they have these very funky genre trappings around what is also like a very kind of sensitive emotional grief-stricken story. And so you could see like only one of those two Getting the nod It would be cool if the secret agent made it in I don't know about it at the expense of Bagonia But it's an interesting consideration Right

And then but it's not it's not being released Until end of November Yes And it's gonna take a while It's gonna take a while And we'll get to that too when it comes out Then what we have to think about is I think Avatar Fire and Ash train dreams

I don't think Wake Up Dead Man's gonna make the list I think it's people are gonna like it I think they're gonna you know I thought it was very good I think he has gotten original screenplay nominations for the first two Nives-out films. I could see it. It's not out of the realm of possibility.

I could see it. But I would agree with you that I don't think of it. I don't think it's best picture. So Avatar and Train Dreams are either of those or is no other choice possibly sliding begonia out? I think that would be cool. Yeah. For Park fans.

You know, that was a very fun movie. Right. But to me, to me, and it is because I saw them in rapid succession, but, like, that is a, that's a great double feature. And I think you either have one or the other. And I do think the Academy voters are trained for Lanthamos first. Probably, probably the case. And then the Emma Stone of it all. Can I ask you a question?

Yeah. Speaking of Academy voters having, you know, roots to some of these filmmakers, for the last two months, I feel like pretty consistently, both you two and David Sims have been like, we're really worried about Avatar. But from my personal perspective, I just feel like I'd be stunned if they do not give it a Best Picture nomination, especially with Cameron. My biggest hang up with it is that it's only been three years since the last one. And it just is going to feel less impressive because it's so soon. That's total speculation and has nothing to do with what I think about the quality of the movie. I'm fired up. I like the Avatar movies. I've always been honest about that. I think they're cool.

Yeah. I think this one could be cool. I just don't know if it feels like special in the same way. There's also, you only get one franchise blockbuster spot, usually. You think that's sinners. Oh, no, I think it's wicked for good. I think I would be surprised if they did Wicked for Good and Avatar Fire and Ash just from a, I mean, it's different audiences, but the, look, you can make, you know... quote-unquote art while also making millions of dollars.

I think there's some differentiation between them just because one is like a movie musical versus a spectacle, right? And so like there is usually like a musical spot, there is a spectacle spot. So there is, but your point is well taken, which is that it's not often that you see multiple franchise movies in the race. It's a tricky one. I'm, my gut is to leave Begonia in right now and to say Jay Kelly is at nine and it was just an accident as at eight.

That's kind of boring. I don't know. I mean, do you want to... We've got Marty Supreman. I, like, I haven't seen the evidence for train dreams yet, like, literally. And also... Premiere today, if I, or read premiered at AFI. People liked it.

Yeah. That would mean three Netflix movies, which is a lot to ask. They're good in nominations. Very good. They are literally the best of getting nominations, yes. And... Weapons out. I think so.

We flirted with it, and that was fun. I'm fired up for the Amanda Seifred Testament of Anne Lee Best Actress Campaign, which is going to be hot and heavy. Yeah, but I agree that I don't think that it'll crack the top ten. Nothing else, right? I don't know, you can't really, yeah. I'm just going to say this again. I mentioned it this week and you scoffed to me, but I'm not closing the door on the F1 nomination.

I just want to say that there. That there is a world where, one, it's, that's Apple's only horse in the race. Right. And that's a movie that has great craft. So you've got all those guilds and all those artisans who are going to be behind it. Kaczynski's already had a film in Best Picture before with a Maverick. The movie did really well, and it did really well internationally. To me, it's not crazy.

There is a history of movies like them. These, like, muscular event films that have this sheen of prestige. I'm just, I'm just not, I'm not ruling it out. Like, everything that you were saying is factually true. It's always a good strategy to stake out a wild thing as like a, it could happen. Hey, I said it. You know? October 30th.

This has been my business for years now. Brad Pitt was, like, at the Daughters game last night, right next to flee. So, you know, he's maybe thinking. about popping back up here and there. Of course. And I'm sure it's going to hit the streaming service soon, you know? I don't think it has the juice. Okay.

Like at this point. I just, it didn't have the juice when it came out. I know it made a good amount of money. And we were all like, hey, pretty good. Remember when the Zeppelin hits? You know? Internationally it did really well. It's now, it made like $600 plus million.

It actually turned out to be like, it's like made roughly the same amount of money as super land. You know, so from an international box office perspective, a huge success. pretty modest, not as big as they would, I'm sure would have wanted it to be. But I'm just thinking about like, it's freaking Hans Zimmer and Joseph Kaczynski and Jerry Bruckheimer producing. Like, it is Hollywood. Right.

But with an international sport that a lot of international voters might have an understanding affinity for. I don't know. Just podcasting with you, you know? No, I love to podcast every day. So the campaign would be run by Apple and not Warner's because Warner's distributed it. believe so. I could be wrong about that. Because I want to ask you this. Do you think any of the, you know, the Warner's paramount

acquisition of it all? Who does that splash back on if it goes through? If there is dissatisfaction in the industry, if not the world at large, at the consolidation of... It's a very good question. Of studios and the loss of jobs and everything that that entails. It's a great question. I think. they won't punish the artists. I don't think that they'll punish one battle after another because there's an effort to sell Warner Brothers. I don't think. I could be wrong. I could be wrong. I know, but do

does Warner's get like three or four? You know? I think they're going to get two. I've been pretty consistent that I think they're going to get two. I think sinners and one battle are locked in. I don't think they'll punish them for that because it's not anybody's fault to work on those movies. I'm just thinking out loud. Paramount doesn't have a movie that's competing. Right. Yeah. That's the problem. Yeah. About many. Well, I mean, they're trying to make a change there, which could, you know, damage movie going long term. We'll see.

I think I feel good about this. So this list would be Bogonia J. Kelly. It was just an accident in Marty Supreme, Wicked for Good. Frankenstein, sentimental value, Hamnet, no, excuse me, sinners, then Hamnet, and then one battle after another. Yeah. No reason to believe one battle after another is moving out of first place. You're not swayed by the Hamnet shifts. It's just because Hamnet's going to be released in a few weeks, you know?

So then you'll be putting it at number one. We're in the press cycle. No, we're in the press cycle. It's when people are talking about it, you know? And then also people need other stuff to write about. So they're hand-wringing about one by left or another international box office or whatever. That's just, it's where we are. But I think we can reassess in a month.

I feel fine about this. Okay. Should we talk about Bagonia? Yeah. Okay. Let's get into it. So this will be a spoiler conversation. I don't know if we'll be like really deeply spoiling it until we get much further into our conversation.

And we will say, and now we're going to talk about. about the ending. Yes. So if you don't want anything about this new film spoiled, I do believe it's opening wide this weekend. So everybody will be able to see it. As I said, new movie from Blanthamos's fourth movie with Emma Stone. The screenplay is by Will Tracy. Will Tracy, interesting figure. He was the editor-in-chief of The Onion. He wrote on Last Week Tonight. He wrote on Succession. And then he wrote the movie The Menu from 2022. This is his new screenplay, which it sounds like was perhaps engineered by Ari Aster, who showed him the material for

based on Save the Green Planet, which is a South Korean film that came out in the 2000s. That has a very similar structure, but not all the same things in it. So, as I said, Emma Stone, Jesse Plemons, Aden Delbus, Stavros, Halkius,

and Alicia Silverstone are the stars of this movie. It's an interesting cast. The framework is two conspiracy-obsessed men kidnap a CEO of a pharmaceutical company because they've become convinced that the CEO is an alien come to Earth to destroy it.

Right. What did you think of Bagonia? Big fan. And as I was prepping for this last night, I, and thinking about all the different parts of the movie, I was like, oh, I actually really liked this. I had the same reaction. But we discussed this right after seeing it, is that this is our particular flavor of Jorgas Lantamos movies. And we were talking a bit with Jack, who loves Lantamos, but you, Jack is in the favorite, poor. things demographic, right? Well, I think I just had more fun with poor things. I think I also,

you know, we had Yorgos on the show and I heard his conversation with Sean before I saw the movie. And I think going in, I was just bummer town. You know, Sean noted if you listen to the conversation the first time, he found it quite funny, the second time he found it quite sad. And I think that might have rubbed off on me a little bit and that I just generally speaking had more fun with poor things, but I also really enjoyed this film. Well, I think that's useful to what you're saying, which is is your

Are you Los Lantamos' films fun? And is that important if they're fun? Because I find his movies to be incredibly bleak and mortally funny. Yes. But kind of punishing when thinking about the human condition, but in a way as you know, knowing me the way you do, like I love that.

But same, actually. And I'm like, if you're going to go for it, Like, let's absolutely go for it. If you put melancholia on your 25 for 25 list, it's like, it's in that mode. And by the way, melancholia is really funny to me. So until it is, until it's not. Yes. So I've always been in the dog to lobster, less so killing of a sacred deer because everybody's got to have. That's incredibly bleak.

It's incredibly bleak and just like creepy. And I like a little more human desperation and interpersonal connection in my, in my bleakness, or the absence of and the longing for, at least. But I saw this and I was like, oh, it's dog tooth. Like, he's wearing his dog tooth hat and not his poor things hat. The favorite is probably, like, the closest melding of the two. And, you know, that's a lot of people's favorite for a reason. And I get it.

But I tend to err towards the weirder and less hopeful. And frankly, just, like, less costume drama-e stuff, even though I'm a person who loves costume dramas, and I think he sends them up very well. But to me, this was smart, funny, refreshingly weird, and without spoiling anything, like, it got me. It got me a few times over. I felt very similarly. I think seeing it a second time, as Jack said, did reveal to me that there's the charge because there is a kind of mystery quality to this movie. This idea that these men are convinced. of this truth about this woman that they've kidnapped,

and then the movie becomes a series of dialogues trying to ascertain the truth. And so once you've seen the movie a second time, you're not watching it with the same tension. Right. You know, you're not laughing at the weirdness as much. You're more thinking about the psychology of these two characters, really, who are facing off against one another.

And the Jesse Plym's character, I think it's a very, very sad person. Yes. And it's, I think, a very sad testimony to the way that a lot of people have been sucked into a rabbit hole in the face of a series of tragic experiences. And this is a character who you come to learn over the course of the movie has suffered some real pain in his life

and is pretty lonely and really only has his cousin who is neurodivergent to spend time with and he falls down these rabbit holes and he can't get himself out. And he keeps like looking for answers and looking for truths in the world and like you could just map this onto any number of things that have happened in the world. You can map this onto the Charlie Kirk assassination.

You can map it on to January 6th. You can map it on to QAnon. There's like a whole bunch of things. Like all of these things are all informing. I think where a lot of the writing and like feeling of the movie is coming from, even if none of that stuff is in the movie literally. And so I really love Jesse's performance. And then conversely, Emma Stone has a really interesting job in this movie. She does. And I think it's pretty amazing. in terms of what she's accomplishing. Yes. Her character is kind of broad

and I think it becomes clear why she's kind of brought over time when you're watching it, but I like her consistently undermining her America's sweetheart persona and this is a very nasty person that she's playing in this movie.

She doesn't give a fuck. And she is, she encapsulates the corporate greed systemic aspect of this situation. She is the CEO of a company. that did something horrible to Jesse Plumman's family. But she's also just, like, seen in HR training being like, you know, everyone can go home, but they can't go home, but they can.

Like, there are a few things, and including one exchange that, like, you noted, and I guess Will Tracy, the screenwriter, like, ID, where she's like, let's have a dialogue about this. Like, the corporate speak in this movie that she is asked to give is chilling and funny in that I, like, I want to jump off a cliff sort of way. Yeah, and, you know, having worked in these environments in the past, like a lot of this is very familiar to me, and if you have been subjected to it,

it's pretty vomit-inducing. I liked what Tracy said about it. He said there's that scene where Teddy and Michelle are arguing in the basement, and Michelle asks to have a dialogue, and Teddy snaps at her. I think maybe I wrote that out of a feeling after reading countless pieces with titles like what we talk about when we talk about universal health care. There's a lot of talking, but nothing actually happens. The talking itself becomes the point,

as does the inaction that's depressing and confusing for someone who comes from a less advantage situation like Teddy he's been abused by the system that keeps talking without doing anything. Right, which is I think really true and observant and leads to like a great character in Teddy but it's also kind of where I think this movie is like a bit broader and a bit more accessible

than maybe we're giving credit for because like, yes, it's weird but there's a lot of talking but nothing actually happens is something that any person with a corporate email account has ever experienced, you know, any person who's ever had to, like, file for health insurance, you know, anybody who's... Can I put some time on your calendar to talk about this? That sort of thing, yeah.

Or just, like, random invitations from someone being like, hey, we're going to have a summit about, like, how to empower, like, women, you know, and candle making. Yeah, I'm sorry for all those invitations, yeah. You know, none of that comes to the race. So it's like everyone can understand this situation that he's been in in, like, the broadest level, and then the further you get into it, the weirder it gets and the sadder

it gets for him. But it's all recognizable. It is. The world itself is real. And it's actually the most real grounded world. I think he's probably ever made a movie in. Yeah. If I had to think, I'm, I guess kinds of kindness looks like our world. But it never feels like it is. they are they're in a like a compound like the cult whatever you know yes yes and in this movie it's like Teddy works in a like a packaging facility

for an Amazon style corporation you know that that is a very recognizable space like his house is just the dilapidated home in a suburban neighborhood or in a rural neighborhood and because of that I think it makes the formal stuff that Lantamos does seem more weird and I think he's like

he's shooting this movie as though it is an intense anthropological animal documentary. Like it opens with these images of the bees and this idea of, you know, the apiary that they manage at the home. And that's obviously a very broad metaphor about how we all exist on this planet and in these societies

and we all have our roles and we all work for the queen. And if we lose our purpose and we don't know where to go, that's just like me on this show. I work for the queen. And if she's not doing well, then we're going to have a tough episode, you know. You know, I was honestly just thinking about how this is also how the Netflix series with Love Megan opens,

which explores many of those themes in a similar way. Yeah, and she bears some resemblance to Michelle in this film. And, but, you know, so he's using this, like, interesting formal style or inside the house interiors is very much more normal than what we expect to see from him, not as much of the fish-eye lens that you see in the favorite or in poor things, not the elaborate production design that you would have seen in poor things or the costuming.

It's much more grounded in that way. But then when you go outside, like when Teddy goes to his job, there's this sense of like doom everywhere. Sure. The music gets very loud and you get these wide shots of Teddy on his bicycle

or like characters moving through that natural world and like a dinosaur is going to eat them or something. You're waiting for something terrible to happen to them. And so it's a very effective like... Which is true in pretty much all his... movies. The larger outside world. They're about people who are constrained in small spaces, like either by choice or by someone else, but that the, you know, danger, danger is just outside. That's right. Like the mad scientist's father and poor things, thinks he's protecting his

creations, but in fact he's not allowing him to be free. Like, it's something that Lanthamus comes back to over and over again. This is an interesting example of it just because this one didn't originate with Lenthamus. Like he didn't write the screenplay. He didn't develop the material as did with Tony McNamara on a couple of movies and it still feels like it's right in his yeah you know his his wheelhouse like he's very comfortable in it it's also like it's very it's unsurprising for him to make a movie about alien paranoia you know he's never made a movie about that but that he's he would be very comfortable doing that kind of thing yeah i mean and that's just like the literal expression of uh like a paranoia of um that things are not right and that

there are like people either people who you can't see and you can't really pin down what's going on that is against you but they're out there and it's if you can just find them you can solve all your problems it's the only way to make sense of what's happening to people you know because even if you are living a blessed life awful things are going to happen and when they happen you're like how can this possibly be how can it this is not fair yeah this is not what was promised and whenever something like that happens you want you want to find a way to rationalize it

like it's a very understandable approach to a sympathetic character but Teddy is also not sympathetic no you know he's incredibly violent and he's willing to do whatever it takes to get his truth right which is something that is also

in the modern condition right now it's true the character itself is not sympathetic I do think that Plemons plays him, if not with sympathy. I mean, he, it's an incredible performance, yes, and he is not judging the person. And so then watching someone who is both like within a mania and also incredibly practical about it because it's become real to him. And Plemons like does keep it very grounded and keeps it as, you know, kind of like next steps

send, okay, we're going to need to follow this. And he creates someone who so believes the world that he is constructed that you kind of, you believe it too, or at least you don't judge him. Maybe you're like, you're like, this is bad. And you're watching it even being like, okay, I'm supposed to think about like these and cells and these people who are radicalized by YouTube. And like you can think of the real illusions, but I at least found myself having some sort of connection for the character.

So one thing I felt when I was watching it related to that was he does things that feel like they are over the line. Like they're violent, they're intense. He doesn't really have control of his emotions. However, whenever he attempts, whenever Michelle attempts to pull him into a dialogue, he's prepared with all the buzzwords to counteract anything that she says to him.

Like he cannot be drawn into her game in any way because he's like, I've read all that. It's very much like Will Hunting in the bar. You know, he's like, I know what tactics you're going to try to deploy to disarm me to me to make. make me think about how I'm in an echo chamber. Right. And he's like, I know everything all the way on the far left.

I know everything all the way on the far right. Right. He's like, I'm on my own mission. I got my own shit. Now, that is definitely what sociopaths say when they kill people. But it is also what politicians say when they try to convince people of things. And I think the movie is pretty clever about that, about keeping you in the middle in terms of where to land on Teddy. Right.

He'll torture Michelle. And you're like, this is awful. Yeah. But then you'll hear Michelle say something after she's been. torturing and you're like, God, I wish you would kill her. And that's a very clever trick. I give Tracy a lot of credit for getting that in the screenplay and keeping that balance. It's the right villain.

Very much. And both, I think the character is purposely broad because that broadness is part of what the enervating quality of just being like, why can't you just like be a person or do a thing? Yeah. You know, so there's nothing for me to respond to. I don't think we've ever had a good conversation about the she, E.O. Girl boss, Euro, which does feel a little bit bygone.

Obviously, there are still people who represent that in the culture, but it's not as prevalent as it was, like five, ten years ago. That's true. But she is very much inspired. Did they? I have a lot of them, yeah. Oh, how come? What did they do?

Yeah, they were very nice on Slack primarily. And then they forgot that there was a record of it. That's tough. Yeah. You don't want that. It's funny that Stone is like, I'm in my mid-30s, it's time for me to be a little sharper and to be unafraid to be unlikable in movies.

There's a funny, like, charting of the favorite to Cruella, to poor things, kinds of kindness, Eddington, this movie, The Curse. Sure. Where she's like, maybe it's better if I'm terrible? Maybe that's my screen persona, like a bad person? maybe I just think like she's in some really weird shit you know it's so cool

and she is just absolutely dedicated like she's just making it's the best so many movies with Jorgas Land and when she's not she's just like sure I'll move to New Mexico and do the curse like we are a long way from EZA and that's really rad you know that's I admire it

but the endurance like it's a durational performance at this point it is also two movies that are totally in conversation with each other in Eddington and Begonia. 100% obviously both in part from Ari Aster, right? Already produced Begonia, we should say. And that's not a mistake.

It does make me think a little bit about how, because of all these feelings that we're talking about, like, this is a new version of a paranoid thriller. You know, this is, we had the Alan Pakula films and three days of the Condor and all that stuff in the 70s, which was a manifestation of post-1968, Watergate, the Vietnam War, all these things happening in the country

that manifested creatively in these kinds of movies that gave you this sensation. This now feels like an actual little boomlet. You know, when you look at one battle, you look at Eddington, you look at even 28 years later, where you've got these movies, your beloved Civil War,

these movies that are kind of filtering the moment and trying to find something to say about them. And I don't know. I think sometimes I get a little bit stuck on what is this movie trying to say around all of these things. Right. I think just their existence together in a very short period of time, though, I think, is saying, we're a period of, like, controlled chaos where everyone's individual life is, like, going along okay. It doesn't, you know.

Well, not even okay. Like, pretty badly. I shouldn't say that. I shouldn't pay with a broad brush. Like, if you're being, you know, if you can't get a job or you're abducted by, by ice. That's obviously an absolute nightmare. Yeah. But I would say in the sort of like middle class, upper middle class especially,

there's a little bit of like not my problem going on in the country, which is one of the reasons why a lot of things are getting worse. Right. It's because there's not a lot of rage in the, you know, the class that has something to lose. Right. Which is kind of what, that's kind of what fascism is depending on. You know, it kind of banks on people comfortably sitting in their house watching their TV shows or their podcasts, so that people can make hay of the power.

And it's rare for art forms to actually meaningfully try to communicate something is wrong. This movie might be a little bit too oblique to make any kind of meaningful change. But it does feel like a product of this last five, 12 years where people are like, why the fuck does everything feel so much worse every day? Why do I feel so much less in control of my own fate than my parents? did. And certainly Eddington and no other choice, I would say, which I know people really haven't had a chance to see, like, isolate a particular, no offense, male character who has,

like, emerged in the last five to ten years and feels cast out by certain parts of society and then also overcome by late. stage capitalism, basically, and everything that you're describing and is responding to their lack of place in the world in this specific way. And, but, you know, I was, you mentioned three days of the Condor and I was just then imagining Robert Redford and his piquet compared with, you know, Jesse Plymins in this movie. Heart throbs of their age as actors, but like, you know, that's, that's the hardest, the hottest that Redford has ever looked.

And then poor Jesse Plymins just has to play a complete and utter, like, creepy loser. Yeah. An unwashed maniac. This doesn't reflect well on our times, you know, like, who are, like, who our Avengers are. And they're not really our Avengers. That's another part of the problem. These are all people who are, like, have been really, really trotten down by the world. And the way they are responding is not, like, solving Watergate.

No, I think there's absolutely something to that. I mean, a lot of these movies now are about how fragile men are making problems. I guess Nixon was kind of a fragile man in some way as well. But those movies were interested in locating at least ideas of heroism, you know, that a journalist could be a hero in this place or even just like a kind of bookkeeper librarian type, like in the Three Days of the Condor, is an unlikely person to try to save the day. Parallax View also is a journalist Clute as a cop

It's these kind of like regular guys Who have heroic qualities These movies Eddington Civil War Begonia you don't come out of the end of them And think like oh there was a hero These movies are not about that at all I mean

The sad part about all of them is that there is no hero They're even more hopeless I mean the three days of the condor The ending of that movie is very hopeless. I would argue these movies are more hopeless. And that's interesting, and it's interesting for them to be kind of coming through the mainstream movie studio system. Like, this is a focus movie. Universal acquired the rights to distribute this movie. And I think it's pretty audacious in that way. And the idea that even a movie like this is commercial is

quite fascinating. There, like so many other things, there also is a way to read this movie as kind of like a very tense popcorn thriller, you know? Like, the metaphor is unmistakable, but if you're not thinking too hard about it, it could just be like, is this lady an alien or not movie? Listen, I watched it the first time. I really wanted to know. And should we put off the spoiler demarcations? Yes, let's just say we're going to talk more significantly about the results of the movie.

We are both like making a box around ourselves and also this part of the podcast. podcast. No, I spent a lot of time being like, oh, is she an alien? Oh, I don't think she is. And like, there was a second level to it, which is I know I'm watching a Yorgos Landthamos movie, so I know he's trying to wrong foot me. And I know this type of movie is trying to wrong foot me. And so I'm like, oh, that's cute. And then there, but she's not going to be. But then I'm like, wait, no, maybe she is, but I know she's not going to be. But then I am supposed to think that she's not going to be. And I really did go back and forth four or five times.

I think that the movie is like very cleverly structured and performed. And that credit to Emma Stone so that I didn't really know. And honestly, when she goes back to the closet and then the big reveal, like I laughed. I was like, that is genuinely funny. You guys got me. I totally agree. You straight up got me. I really enjoyed the reveal.

And I similarly went back and forth, back and forth. back and forth thinking about it and using the psychology of our movie history with the filmmaker which matters to it and Jorgos when we talked to you said just that Emma thought about this a lot

that she put a lot of time and effort into thinking about what she was showing and not showing in her performance because a lot of her performance is about this very clipped manner of speaking is about trying to maintain control in an environment in which she has no control and what she's supposed to be saying

and when we do in fact learn spoiler alert that she actually is an alien. When she runs back to the closet and jumps in, I was like, no, nah. Well, when they cut back to her in the ambulance, I was like, okay, confirmed. Like, you know, they reveal her to, you know,

ready to make her return to her ship. I laughed as well, and I felt a little bit sad again, like I said, because this is something that I alluded to when we talked earlier this week on an episode, but Teddy was right. Yeah. His suspicion that there isn't just an alien species,

but that she was, and not just a meaningful member of the species, but he learns because of these procedures that he's doing, that she is a high-ranking official in the Andromedan Empire. And it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter because he's just a dumb guy with no agency. And he's just another bee in the hive. And he can't make any change. and she pretty easily outsmarted him,

even though he had her dead to rights trapped in his house, she still outsmarted him. Yeah. And we're all just stuck. And also, he killed his mom with Antifreece. Right. He's an idiot.

He's a fucking online idiot. Yeah, but it's sad. Yeah. It's very sad. But it's like she convinced him to do something just like so many other people have been convinced to do terrible things. Right. Also, we're in the era

where Alicia Silverstone is just being like the drugged out mom. How do you feel about that? Well, life comes for us all, you know? Yeah. I'm glad she's getting work and I thought she looked great at Venice Not in a bathtub or whatever Or on an IV or whatever is going on

The most Lansomos-ish Moments in the movie are the black and white flashbacks Where we see which I think you could make the case Didn't need to be in the movie I think they're in attempts to show the The trauma and psychology of Teddy But I think inferring it Actually would have been a little bit more interesting

That's something I didn't love about it I think those sequences are beautiful but they're not they didn't change the way I felt about Teddy well I think they soften both Teddy and the film a little bit and again that's where they like broaden it a little bit for me where even if you are I mean this guy like literally murders people who turn out to be aliens but you know so was the implication that they were all aliens all seven of them because you remember when her voice changes and she's like how many of them

were our job right right and so I guess I don't know how many, I don't remember, but several of them. He definitely tortured people. Yes. But you are also given this backstory of, but it's because this agribusiness or whatever it is killed his mom and is trying to buy him off. And that's something that like, you know, I don't want to use maybe, like civilians, people who aren't here for just like true fucked up, you know, dog's youth land can latch on to.

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Navigate to the ringer channel, and boom, you're in. One of the things that this movie had me thinking about was that the sort of like the realm of conspiracy has shifted from left to right over the last 30 years. So when I was coming of age and learning and reading about American history, a lot of the ideas when you were reading. That the CIA killed Kennedy. And, like, the Nome Chomsky will be like, the entire country is founded on rape and pillage and backroom deals. Well, I mean. Which we know. But we understand now in a way that even was not fought in the 1980s nearly as much.

And there's this wave of generations that are reading, like, lies my teacher told me and all these books. People's history. People's history in the United States. Like, all these books which are so, and if you study media and journalism like I do, you're like start reading McChesney and all these people. and they reveal like corporate power is the thing that tends to dominate the mind and they're doing it on purpose. Advertising is doing it on purpose.

This is a way to bilk you and to narcotize you to not take action. Yeah. And then over time, especially in the aftermath of 9-11 and the Tea Party, that strategy of saying like you're being lied to.

There's something wrong in the world and you need to take action. Right. Has shifted to become more of a strategy on the right. Now you can make the case and I'm sure people are listening, they'll say both sides still do it, and I'm not going to argue about that.

But this movie has a really interesting relationship to that concept, because Teddy is kind of neither left nor right, and he literally says that in the movie. But this framework of, like, I'm going to do, I have to take action. I have to stop this madness. Right.

And I'm going to kill people to do it. I'm going to imprison, torture, and kill people to get to my truth. yeah is like it's not outlandish to put this in the movie like it feels pretty

kind of close to the real world even though it's an alien movie and we just talked about a Catherine Bigelow movie which was very recently a portrayal of torture and an effort to ascertain information and this is a more

ridiculous genre-based premise but not really very different it feels very close to the bone yeah it's like you you recognize not just the illusions and you know it is in some ways, like, obvious metaphor alert, you know? It is.

It's not that. People are going to gripe about that, too. They're going to make this movie as dumb as shit because it's so obvious, which I also understand people feel like. I don't know. I didn't feel that way at all. But it's not like, let's, you know, send Gretelie to a reenactment of Gettysburg. It's much cleverer than that.

It's within the text, and it's part of the structure. But no, it's the, not the reality of it, but the recognizability of it in a movie that is about, hey, did like aliens come to Earth to take us over? over, it's pretty remarkable. How do you feel about the actual, like, final conclusion of just eradicating the humanity and then the bees come back? So I remember incredible filmmaking. I also just want to say, though, this movie was filmed, I believe, in Atlanta and in the U.K.

And incredible Atlanta representation and then last montage, Fernbank Center, I see you. I see the dinosaur bones remained, if not. all of the people, but I was like, hey, field trip. So that was, I appreciated that. Also, she's like driving around Anzley Park at some point. If you know, you know. I don't know. But I remember sitting in the theater as being like, oh, fuck, this is really working on me.

And I was, like, really freaked out and devastated. And I, I remember thinking, and this is, it's, the film's making a completely different point. And also, like, I do understand that aliens aren't real. But I was like, I haven't felt like this. since that coda in the big short when they're like Michael Barry is now shorting water. And I'm just like, well, the world, like, we all are just going to end. You know, we're going to die and this is how it's going to happen. And it's just a little coda at the end of a movie.

And I'm unprepared. Oh, I think it's a, I did just have this feeling very recently in a movie. And it's when you're looking at the data center when the Bobby Gentry song plays a new to Beddington. Where it was like, oh, God damn, I am powerless. Yeah, yeah, yeah. power is very centralized and you know enjoy your yogurt at home you you moron um because then now costs like $14 but whatever yeah that is true um i think that this is an interesting one for for yourgos it sounds like he's going to take a little bit of a break after this because

he's been on this breakneck pace yeah and i'm i'm really really i really think both stone and and Plymins are exceptional in this movie. I've read some criticism that people thought it would work better if Plymins was like a little more cartoonish. But I like that he was just kind of this tragic loser. I mean, that's the thing of people always want the bad characters to be punished. And I think that the lack of punishment, except that we're all punished because life is hell.

That's a wavelength you and I are on. I know, I know. It's nice. It's something we share. What else? Any other thoughts about this movie? Where it even fits in with L'Anthamos is his filmography? Yeah, so I think it's kind of, it's more first half than second half, which I think is cool. Yep, I agree.

I'm happy he kind of went back to that energy. Yeah, you know, we did Power Ranking, Best Picture Power Rankings to start this. And I do kind of feel like poor things had a lot of success at the Oscars because, It was weird and not landish, but also ultimately sort of like good girl power. Yeah, you know, it's like the CEO makes good. And she becomes her own CEO, you know? Indeed. So I guess now I do wonder how Bagonia will go against.

This isn't the most hopeful of even of the movies this year that are dealing with how men are cast out of the world that we will. live in. Yeah, I mean, if you put it up against one battle after another, that's a significantly more hopeful movie, even though it's riven with tragedy. I, like, my personal favorites are also Dogtooth and the Lobster. Those are probably my two favorite films. I don't know if they're his best made movies per se. He's really, at this point, his production design is pretty incredible.

Like, he just, he's kind of in master filmmaker territory for me. It doesn't mean every movie is my favorite. I really didn't dig kinds of kindness, even though it felt very close to the dog tooth energy. I didn't think that the script was. was as good. I don't know you don't love an anthology. I mean, that's true. You know, tell a story.

Favorite and poor things are both excellent. They are. I really like both of them as well. But this would be near the top for me. I don't, I've seen it twice now. I don't know if I'm going to race to see it again. I think it doesn't have as much, as much comic payoff as the lobster does.

The lobster, to me, is also very tragic. It has an insanely bleak ending. But it's very amusing. but going you, if I spent any time thinking about it, I feel very bad. Yeah. That's the point, right? It is the point.

Yeah. Okay. I have a question. Yes. Do you think there is any chance Emma Stone gets the best actress nomination? This is a good question. The reason I ask is, you know, I'm watching the movie,

and you guys already celebrated her, it's an amazing performance, but she's put in a position of vulnerability which her character has truly really never been in. And she plays it very well, and there's one moment where she isn't a position of power, which is when she's on top of Teddy, and the mask just completely comes down.

And she just delivers that line where she says, I'm a winner and you're loser. And she delivers it so sharply, and her teeth are gritting. And it just cuts right through. And I was stunned. And right after, I'm like, well, surely she's going to be nominated for best actress.

But I wonder, is there a little bit of Emma Stone fatigue following the second win from poor things? I don't think there's fatigue for her as a, performer, I just think that the Oscars is usually kind of strategic about this and that, you know, she was obviously, you know, in a tight race when she won for poor things. And I wouldn't say that was a surprise one. I think you picked it and I didn't. Is that right?

No, I think that. Or I picked it and you didn't? Maybe we both didn't pick it, but then it was real like, oh, God, I knew this was coming. Like, I knew it. It was one of those. Yes. Very similar to Mikey Madison beating Demi Moore, too, where it was like, oh, right.

Why didn't I use my brain on this one? Three before 40 would be a lot. That's just not... Well, he's not asking if she's going to win. Yeah, I'm just saying a nomination. I think she is a huge star. Clearly one of the actresses of her generation,

if not the actress of her generation. Yorgos is Academy Certified, like you were saying. And I don't know how successful the movie will be, but I don't... I think people will see it. I do as well, and she's also... She's working the trail. And she's just super charming.

Yeah. You know, she's just like great on the red carpet, great in interviews. She's a good star. And those people tend to walk away from their careers with like nine nominations. Right. But so who do we have now? So we've got Emma Stone. We've got Jesse Buckley for sure.

Yep. Chase Infinity is running in Best Actress. Yes. Which would be exciting. Yes. Okay. We have Vernada Renzvi. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Sure. We have Amanda Seifred. Right. Testament of Anne Lee. Okay. We have Kate Hudson for a film called Song Song Blue.

Yeah, I heard about that. I like that she tried. Never mind. We can talk about that later. We have Rose Byrne for if I had legs, I'd kick you. Yeah, I'd love to see that. Sidney Sweeney for Christy. Sure.

It's going to happen. Yeah, yeah. You said J-Law for Die My Love? I didn't say it yet, but that's another one. There's probably a couple more. Got a lot of angry moms there on the list. Cynthia Arrivo. Sure.

Arevo for Wicked for Good. I haven't seen Heda yet, but maybe Tessa Thompson. She's gotten very good reviews for that movie. I don't think Julia Roberts for is this, or for after the hunt is going to happen. Laura Dern is this thing on? Could be. A lot of contenders this year. I think that's, I think that's roughly the shape of it.

Okay. That's a lot. That's a lot. To me, it still feels like Jesse Buckley's to lose. Agree. What do you think about the Chase Infinity thing? her choosing to run in best actors or them choosing to run her best actress.

Which obviously makes room for Tiana Taylor and Regina Hall to run in supporting. I like it. Again, I don't really feel category fraud or like in the way that you do or, you know, I know Wesley Morris. You and Wesley feel very strongly about it. I'm just like, I don't know, go win an Oscar.

You rarely see the inverted fraud. Right. Where somebody who feels like a supporting character goes into lead. But she doesn't feel like a supporting character. I mean, she's the movie, the two-thirds of the movie, Tiana Taylor's the prologue, and then she is the girl lead. She is, but act two is Bob's movie. So she gets one section of the movie.

And the movie obviously becomes hers by the end. So you get one, two, three. So, I mean, Leo's not running in supporting actor. No, but he's in every phase of the movie. He's the only character who's in every phase of the movie. All right. I mean, like, you don't need to mansplain to, well, Leo is a best actor and everyone is supporting actor. It's like, what do you care? Like, are you? Who made you the category police? Well, I did, actually, by hosting this show. Category Police is a good idea for a second.

Let's do that. Okay. I think it's, I think it'd be cool if she got nominated. She's excellent in that movie. Yeah. It's her third performance on screen ever. It's crazy. Yeah. But I think she's pulling a tough draw here with some, a bunch of people who've been nominated before, a couple people, like, you know, Cynthia Revo, Amanda Seifred, Jesse Buckley, they've all been nominated before. Right. Emma Stone and Jennifer Lawrence have won in this category before. Sydney Sweeney was in a jeans commercial. So there's, you got to consider that. Have you watched those?

No. Okay. Well, we'll do it before, Christy. Oh, no, we'll do it. We'll do it. Roseburn should be nominated. 1,000%. I will endeavor to.

I'll communicate about that on an ongoing basis for the next five months. I think she really deserves it. Okay. But going you, pretty good. I liked it. I really do. Go see it if you haven't. If you're still listening and you didn't see it, okay.

You're bad. Those are your choices. Your choice now is to either turn this episode off or more likely stick around for my conversation right now with Yorgos Lantamos. For the very first time, joined by Yorgos Lantamos, the great filmmaker. Very excited to speak with you, sir. I wanted to start with this. Three of your last four films have been written by screenwriters other than yourself.

And this one I read is the first one that you didn't even really develop the material. So I'm curious, like, when a script hits your desk, what are you looking for? What is it that excites you in a story? Well, I'll start by saying, like, all of these scripts until recently, I'm either, you know, involved as a writer or kind of found the original material or they were all, like, really long process of, you know, development. So I was involved with the script, screenwriting for many years. So in that sense, this is even more exceptional.

It's the first time that I receive a screenplay and I think that it's almost ready to go. Of course, I had to do a little bit of work with Will just to get it more to my sensibility and feel more comfortable and make it aligned with my vision of the film, but it was like a very short process and I felt immediately from the beginning that it would work because already the screenplay was incredible.

And what it was, like, it's difficult to say. I guess one thing, the less profound is like it was different to what I've done before. But then, you know, it was something that I read and I read it like in one go and I found it entertaining and suspenseful and complex and, you know, very funny, but also like dealing with, you know, a lot of darkness, a lot of issues around humanity and human nature, which always interests me and done in a quite different way, in a contained way. So, yeah, it just called me excited

immediately. And I immediately send it to Emma Stone at the same night that I read it. It was so so much of an immediate reaction I guess. I'm curious why you were open to this kind of a process at this stage of your

career, you know, as opposed to developing or identifying the material or even writing it yourself. Like, why were you open to just receiving someone else's script? I guess I'm always open. I just I had never received a script that felt you know, that it had the right, you know, material or the right tone or the right anything. But it was that different with this one. So I've been reading scripts. It's just

that nothing really clicked up until now the same way that this one did. Were you familiar with Save the Green Planet before you got the script? No, not at all. I hadn't seen it. And I actually read the script first, got excited, shared it with Emma. And then basically when we kind of, you know, felt strongly about it, I then I watched the original film just to make sure that it was different enough to warrant, you know, a remake. And, you know, I saw that that was the case. And so we decided to go ahead with it. You're on this breakneck pace right now with three films in three years, which is very unusual for filmmakers these days. I was curious if you see the last three films as thematically linked in any way beyond

Emma appearing in them. Well, I mean, what we mentioned before, there's a lot of exploration of human, you know, condition and behavior and, yeah, something along those lines. At the same time, like they're formally different and seemingly, you know, quite different stories. I don't know. Like, it's that thing, like, it's hard to, you know, make a self-analysis and understand what it is that draws you to this kind of thing. I think that's, you know, better done by other people that don't, are not so much involved in the, in the process of, you know, making those.

Okay, I'll do it for you then if you want me to. Yes. Yeah. I mean, it's always interesting to hear that, you know, those things. And especially when you do recognize something that someone says, you go like, oh, yeah, do that. That's true. I wanted to ask you about the formal aspect of it, because this new film does feel a bit like you took pieces of poor things and pieces of kinds of kindness in terms of the style of film that you were making and kind of blended them together. You know, that these are like a lot of interiors shot in small spaces. but these kind of big outsized ideas and a kind of high melodrama to a lot of the execution of the story. Like, is that something that you feel conscious of when you're like, all right, I've used these tools over here and these tools over here, and what if I smash them together? Yeah, I mean, a little bit.

Basically, trying to do, you know, something slightly different with each film, but at the same time, having developed a certain kind of taste and a certain kind of preference about things, and then seeing what you can do to, you know, tweak things, just to make it more interesting, but also I rely a lot on what the material is and what that gives me in order to make that shift, not just without any reasoning, just do something different for the sake of it. So, you know, for example, on this film on Bagonia, we decided that, well, first we decided that we're going to suit on VistaVision, which was like a huge decision. We had shot some vista vision on poor things, but at the time we couldn't really find a camera

that was reliable enough and quiet enough to shoot sing dialogue with. So we couldn't shoot much more, but those images stayed in our heads. So as we were making other stuff, we kept like interrogating the possibility. And Robbie was like looking around for, you know, what other camera

cameras there could be so we found this camera the will cam which is quieter I mean you can still hear it but it's still a pretty big camera though right? Yeah it's it's quieter but it's really huge

so we did some tests and we liked it so you know then you get into the okay we have this restriction it's going to be huge and it's slow I mean it takes a lot a long time to, you know, change the magazine and all of those things. So that puts you in a certain kind of mode.

And if you accept that and you commit to that, then you figure out, you know, the rest of it. So for me, it was, like, interesting to use such a larger format in what you described as well, like smaller spaces, kind of claustrophobic, a film very much focused on characters and dialogue. I think that kind of depth of the larger format kind of created this almost iconic portraiture of the characters. So we decided that we're going to stick with that and not use too many wide-angle lenses and see a lot of the space necessarily most of the times. And then just suppose that portraiture with when you're outside and you see something. wider so the contrast is greater. So you just kind of build from the material from one decision that you make, that it leads you to the others. We always love restrictions as well. Like with

Robbie, we've done, you know, the last few films together and most of the times we kind of impose them ourselves because it just makes things clear and easier. Like so you develop this language and you say like this is the alphabet. There's like these lenses and the camera. doesn't move unless people move and you know it's a huge camera so we can't do like a thousand different angles you know those things and that kind of helps you know um free you in the process especially you know during filming it's very stressful you don't have much time so when you have less options it kind of frees you to you know focus on other things or be creative of how you find a solution for something so it's it either comes from

you know, circumstances or a choice that you made. But it's always helpful, I find, to, like, narrow things down. I love that juxtaposition in the film that you talked about, this idea that whenever Jesse's on his bike or Emma is just kind of walking briskly through a space that it feels like the camera is very wide and that there's, like, this sense of impending doom, like, someone might come up behind them at any moment. Yeah. But how do you avoid when you impose those rules, the film, like, feeling too schematic,

you know, feeling too mannered. Do you think about that? Yeah, which I think I don't mind. I like the aspect of a certain construct to be obvious. And I like to mix that with other things. Like, you know, there can be a very, as you say, like conscious construct around how the film is. recorded but then like there's these you know quite realistic although I

don't really love the term performances from the actors or the the environment is like really dirty and real and then you have this other layer of sound that or music that's over the top and super dramatic and I think you know all of these things you know by combining all these different layers you create this tone, this tonality, which is, you know, different to its parts. So that's why I'm interested in. But then, of course, if you see it and analyze it, you know, you can see the structure of that. And I don't know, like I find something interesting about, like, watching a film,

getting lost in it, and then something reminding you that you're watching a film. I know what you mean by that, and there was something related to that I want to ask you, too, which is that I feel like most of your films are not dependent on dramatic reveals but especially having seen this movie twice now it plays very differently the second time that you see it. And I'm curious what it was like to, you know,

essentially be making, what feels like a pot boiler in some ways, you know, you're waiting for kind of like revelation and if that changed how you thought about making the film in any way. Yeah, I mean, it was more, I think it was more important for Emma, for example, her performance to think about that a lot like what it would be and she talks about that like that it's the first time that she thought thought about it in those terms like what would it be if someone watched the film for a second time so she did have that in her mind and you know of course

you know i was there and i you know certain things that i could see i could help with i would but for me in the end like when i started thinking about that too much i i felt Like, in the end, that's not, you know, the strength of this film. That's not what it's about. And also, like, it's based on an older film. If you want to look it up, you know what it is. And I think the effort was like to make, you know, every scene, every second, every, you know, situation compelling and interesting.

The same way that I read the script. Because I understood that when I was reading the script, it was about like these characters and you know how you get drawn to each one and then how one manages to convince you about something and then the other and then you don't know where you are and I felt like in the end whatever the outcome is it's not as important as you know this process of being engaged in those ideas and those characters in that way so I kind of let that go a little bit And also, I don't think you can control it. I think certain people would be able,

even if they didn't know the original film, would be able to, like, decide for themselves, oh, I know what it's going to be, and they might be right, they might be wrong, someone else thinks something different. There's the people that are going to be alternating the entire time. You know, you can't absolutely control that because there's so many different people.

So, yeah, I think I let go of that idea of having to make, you know, a big review. that impactful and to make sure that nobody understands that from the beginning. I think it's interesting to allow everyone to have their own mind about it and then just, you know, make the journey there fulfilling and interesting and exciting. I did find it much more tragic the second time around, I will say, that I felt much more sad. And, you know, the film, the script is laden with all these modern phrases and this social framework and this kind of exploration of a life spent online in some ways. And, you know, our

inability to communicate with each other, essentially. And then the movie itself is this series of communications. I'm curious, like, how much does that, this aspect of the world and this state of the world, like, you know, actually concern you or scare you? And how much of it is a vessel to explore individual human relationships well a lot i mean it's it's becoming more and more obvious that you know there's the the divide between you know the different groups of people and all these bubbles that are created especially with uh the aid of technology and how fast it progresses um is something scary because i i see that it's becoming really hard to burn through that bubble, to be able to, you know, to listen to someone else and, you know, actually

properly consider a different opinion or a different friend truth or the nuance between what you believe and what someone else believes. And that's, you know, just being in those bubbles, it's just being reinforced, you know, it just reinforces your, you know, ideas instead of like opening you up to other ideas, which is something that technology, you know, would be able to do if it didn't operate in that kind of, you know, algorithm structuring thing, where it just gives you what you want. And the same thing with AI is like giving you what you want, what you want to hear, what, you know, what the direction you want to go. And just, you know, it just seems like it can become totally uncontrollable in a sense if you don't check in with other people

or other things. So yeah, it realistically seems scary other than it being a vehicle for us to explore. You know, what that could be, you know, if you actually had that conflict in person instead of like, for example, doing something like that online. I think Will Tracy, we wrote the script talks about that, like, you know, a basic idea of his was when you started writing the script is that. Like if you took all these people that anonymously, you know, make all these comments and are so, you know, absolute about all these things and, you know, take those people and put them in a room, what happens, you know, like. Well, one of my favorite takeaways, or at least feelings from the movie, is that being right is not a solution. You know, that even if you are the loudest and most obnoxious person, you might actually be right about what you think is happening in the world.

And that doesn't mean that anything is fixable or that you're working towards a solution either, which is just such a fascinating confrontation with the way that we fight with each other every day. And I really clicked with that. Yeah, no, I agree. And it's funny because, like, also like, you know, both sides could be right about some of the things. So, again, like, if you can't work together and, you know, figure out, you know, what part of what you believe is true and what part of what, you know, I believe is true, then you, yeah, it's kind of impossible to get to a solution. So, yeah, I totally agree with that. I wanted to ask you about Aidan Delbus, who, you know, is a complete unknown. You've got basically he's right in between two performers you've worked with multiple times now.

Where did he come from? How did he get cast? Well, as soon as I read the script, as I said, I sent it to Emma. It was very straightforward for me. And when she responded to it, again, we both thought of Jesse being good. you know, perfect for this, which had just worked with him on kinds of kindness. So that was like very quickly resolved in a way. And so right after having those two in mind, I immediately felt that I wanted someone, was not a professional actor who hasn't had any

film experience. And I do that in all of my films to, you know, various, levels. But this was obviously a very important part. It was like the third part in a three-part kind of film. So, yeah, we just started streetcasting, basically. We worked with Jennifer Venditti, who has a, you know, a lot of experience with finding people that are not, that do not have any film experience. And the other thing is, like, being inspired by how the characters were written in the script, I just felt that it was an opportunity to cast someone who was neurodivergent. Like, it felt that way in the script. And I think someone who would actually have that sense of the world and have that perspective would enrich the character. So we, yeah, we kind of focus

towards that and you know very quickly actually we was one of the first few batches where we saw Aiden who's autistic and he prefers that term and we saw his tape and we really he really stood out and but we kept looking because it felt like it was too too early to have found you know such a it should be harder to find the perfect person for this part Yeah, like we thought like it would take forever. So we kept looking, but like, you know, we just kept saying, you know, Aidan is, you know, the best we've seen so far. So we met him and we met him for the first time all three of us, like me, Emily and Jesse.

We went in to do a test with the infamous VistaVision camera, the big one. Because you can still hear it. So I wanted to have Jesse and Emily experience it to make sure that it wouldn't throw off their performances when they would hear the camera. It actually made them feel better because there was like a white noise in the room. It wasn't like dead silence in between their dialogue. So they found it like quite comforting the sound of the camera. I did want to ask you about that. I asked Adrian Brody about it around The Brutalist too because it's a similar thing where it's got to be a little intense.

And Aiden as well, like having no film experience, what was that like for him, too, to have that camera in the room? Yeah, and the brutalist, I think they shot only with a really loud camera, so they probably had them far away or something. But, yeah, Aidan didn't, so we met him on that day. So it was an opportunity to meet him as well. And, you know, again, it was obvious that it, you know, He was the right person for it, and we were very nervous to meet him.

Like, we didn't know what he would think of us, like, you know, testing this huge camera, these actors. He didn't really know who they were or what we've done before. At some point, he recognized Jesse, I think, because he watched Breaking Bad. He liked Breaking Bad, and he likes horror films and stuff. So he realized who Jesse was, and, you know, that started a great friendship and relationship. So yeah, he was like totally unfazed by, you know, the camera or us or like we were way more nervous meeting him. And yeah, again, that was like a confirmation that, you know, he's the right man to bring in. And yeah, I mean, I was nervous as well, like, you know, how it would be, you know, with someone like him.

And we had an access coach on set who's, you know, experienced in these kind of situations, Elaine. And she was extremely helpful because she would walk Aiden through, you know, the process and explain to him what everything, how everything is going to be done, make sure that there were not, there weren't any things that, you know, would upset him in any way. And but then in the end, it was like, you know, I put in the same. trust to him that I put in Emma and Jesse, although they, you know, they come from a totally different place. For me, what is, you know, great about, you know, working with great actors or great people that have great presence, it's just like allowing them to come in with their idea about the characters or their instincts, you know, and then mold that instead of me, you know, trying to prescribe, you know, what it is that they have to do or what the role is.

it was the same thing with Aiden, like, he had instincts about the character, and, you know, I just allowed the same way that I allow, you know, Jesse and Emily to, like, bring that in and enrich, you know, the process and what's going on. It was a great experience. I really liked his performance. I have two quick ones for you before we go. The first one is I'm curious just to hear your thoughts on the state of movie going, because, you know, poor things and the favorite were pretty sizable hits at the box office. And you're one of the few otore filmmakers who's making original material and getting audiences to come out and see the films.

And we're constantly, at least on this show, debating, like, what is the future of this medium and format and experience? So how do you see it right now? Well, that's a very long conversation. but what I think I think that the divide has become greater like the there's a there's a very absolute decision I think in which which films might do well so which films were like promoting and you know spending money on and and that's like a decision that is

made very very early on so like smaller films have less of an opportunity to be seen unless there's like this, you know, like something that happens like a certain circumstance and something catches on for some reason and doesn't need the support of a whole system, you know, like a huge cost around, you know, promoting a film. So, well, there's that, which is pretty tricky. And then there's, you know, the action. You know, the actual decision of people going into the cinema and I hope that it's, you know, it will never change because it's such a different experience. It's just like communal experience. You perceive films so differently, you know, watching something in the cinema. So, you know,

though, of course, you know, streaming and all these things will always, you know, be popular because you can, you know, it's easier and more comfortable. I think if we're, you know, educated enough and try and preserve, you know, that aspect of, you know, films and going to the cinemas and, you know, save all cinemas from closing down and pass that baton on to the younger generation, which is curious and, you know, is interested. I think that should never go and would never go. It's like, I don't know, like saying that there won't be any live concerts of music anymore

because it's easy to just listen to it at home. It's a totally different experience, and we should do whatever we can to, you know, retain it. Yorgos, we end every episode of this show by asking filmmakers, what's the last great thing that they have seen? Have you seen anything that you've really enjoyed recently? The last great thing, yeah. I mean, Kelly Reihard's mastermind. Oh, I love this movie.

Tell me why you like it. Well, I always try to tell her why I like her films. And it's always embarrassing. I'm sorry, but I'm going to say the same things again. I just find what she does so delicate, but at the same time powerful. Like, it's so subtle, but then it's. leaves you like a very lasting strong impression and I think that's so difficult to do and it's so particular to her and how she constructs these films yeah that every time you know

watch one of her films I'm terribly moved so yeah things is one of the great you know filmmakers and again you know as we talked about before not enough people get to see her films because, you know, whatever the reason people decide to either, you know, support such a film, the level that they're going to support such a film or not. So definitely her, yeah. It's a great recommendation. I saw your film and her film on the same day and Tell You Ride, so perfect match. Yeah. Jorgosantamos, thanks so much for the time and congrats on the film. Thank you. Thanks. Lantamos. Thanks to Amanda. Thanks for our producer Jack Sanders for his work on this episode next

week. We're drafting again. Me, you, CR, 1989. You feel ready? I do. I have some personal anecdotes from the year. It's probably like 1991 to share. Because that's when some of the movies made it. You know? I see. Because I was, I couldn't stay up late. Okay. You were just a tadpole. Here I go. And then you became a real girl. Roughly two years later. Okay. We'll check in then. You know, I'm going to be.