The Big Picture - Best Picture Power Rankings: Let the Games Begin

Episode Date: December 2, 2022

Oscar season is … here? Sean and Amanda briefly dig into the 2022 Sight and Sound poll before discussing the touching new Robert Downey Jr. family documentary 'Sr.' (1:00) . Then, they run through their first power ranking of the 2023 race, ordering all the contenders for Best Picture (1:08:00). Finally, Sean is joined by documentary filmmaker Laura Poitras to talk about her new film, ‘All the Beauty and the Bloodshed’ (0:00). Hosts: Sean Fennessey and Amanda Dobbins Guest: Laura Poitras Producer: Bobby Wagner Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

The time has come to get ready for the 2022 World Cup. And what better way to prepare than by revisiting the World Cup's most amazing goals? I'm Brian Phillips. I'm making a podcast about the history of the Men's World Cup, told through the stories of 22 iconic goals. The show's called 22 Goals. It's out now on the Ringer Podcast Network, and we're having so much fun. I'm Sean Fennessy. I'm Amanda Dobbins.

And this is The Big Picture, a conversation show about the best picture of 2022. Later in the show, I have a conversation with the Academy Award-winning documentary filmmaker Laura Poitras about her new film, All the Beauty in the Bloodshed, a portrait of the artist Nan Golden that is both a fierce picture of protest

and an intimate personal history. It's an amazing film. Had a good chat with Laura. I hope you'll stick around for that. But first, we have a different documentary to discuss and also some lists. Movie rankings are all the rage. Later, we're going to talk about our best picture ranking and what 2022 films matter but just before we began recording

sight and sound magazine the hallowed british institution has released its i don't even know what the word is for every 10 years is it it? I don't know. Descentennial? Is that every 10,000 years? Every 1,000 years? It's been a long time since I studied Latin. Let's keep it moving. Every 10 years,

Sight & Sound releases a poll voted on by critics and some filmmakers as well of the greatest films of all time. Of all time. And the last time we saw this list was 2012.

So we've been waiting a decade to see this list it's here it has arrived it's actually the 100 greatest films but there's a lot of focus usually in the top 10 and so amanda it's it's christmas morning for you it happened yeah you're here it's here i appreciated your use of the first person plural there as to say that we wait for this. But really one young man named Sean Fennessy just marks his calendar, gets up every morning, is today the day, and here it is. How are you feeling? I'm a daddy again. It's so great. Yeah, it's wonderful. Bobby and I both got to witness you reading the list in real time. We weren't recording at that moment. We recorded

some of the later reactions, which maybe Bobby will splice in. So interesting. What the critics have chosen. Oh, the leopard. Tied at 90 with Ugetsu. Interesting. Gosh.

Goodfellas down at 63. These fucking animals. How dare they? The piano at 50. Man, this would be such a bad pot if it was just us doing that. I'll do a quick impression. I'm just like, oh my God. Wow.

Oh my, but that's, but where's, it was really, really good. It was really peak Sean. And why don't you fill in the gaps there a little bit? How are you feeling? It's an interesting list. I haven't had time to fully digest it. I will say there are a couple of things that made me very, very happy. Here are the first two.

I'll give the list in full, but one Mulholland Drive comes in at number eight. David Lynch's masterpiece, five-star movie, one of the most amazing movies. It's also a very recent film. There was a lot of conversation about which films in the last 20, 25, 30 years would make an appearance near the top of this list. Mulholland Drive, that's an interesting choice for Lynch. I think we've all kind of crowded around that one as the one, even though I think for a long time, it was Blue Velvet or Eraserhead. And then also to see In the Mood for Love, one Carwise film, also from the 2000s at

number five is really exciting that is very exciting um those are two really great entries into the top 10 and then there was a nice surprise for you as well in the top 10 in the rain is back at number 10 it was on the 2002 yes two lists yeah 20 years ago dropped out for the last round back at number 10 we all know how much i love that film and i i do like this list i was making fun of you and and even as you know you texted me eagerly this morning it's coming out right when we're recording like get ready to talk about it i was like oh boy we should talk about lists and i what voice is that what character is that i'm not really sure sometimes i'm just working free form you know we, Sean. Yeah, exactly.

Well, this is Cahier Duchamp we mentioned. Yeah, that's a good one. I can find this list to be a little, you know, Cahier Duchamp for lack of a better term. It can be academic. It is. And that is the beauty of it. tool to learn about films that you've never learned about or to be kind of the standard for that particular type of like film watching and film experience. It's like a wonderful resource. Everyone on film Twitter being like, oh my God, when will it be?

Like, will Vertigo be number one again? Like, you know, I'm sorry. I find a little exasperating. And I do find the taste to be slightly academic or irritating. Vertigo is nowhere near my favorite Hitchcock film. It is now at number two. Let's do 2012 and then compare it to 2022. I think we'll have a much deeper conversation about this

when we talk about our favorite movies of 2022. Adam Neiman, who himself is a legitimate film scholar, will join us for part of that conversation. I'm sure he'll have great insights into this new list. I think well over 600 critics voted. It might even have been more than 800 critics voted this time around. So the pool is very big. I did not vote. I actually don't know what the parameters are for being asked to vote. I think there's just sort of like an individual, someone says this person should be invited invited to vote for. Should we put that on your like... My bucket list? Yeah. Should we secret that for you? Can for me, sight and sound for you? Well, I have to wait 10 years now to vote against.

Maybe you should have picked a more realistic goal, you know? I didn't even aspire to it. I didn't even inquire because I don't... It's not that... What's most important to me is seeing it and thinking about it and thinking about the hierarchy and why people are voting the way that they are. In 2012, the top 10 was Fellini's 8 1⁄2, The Passion of Joan of Arc, Man with a Movie Camera, The Searchers, 2001 A Space

Odyssey, Sunrise, The Rules of the Game, Tokyo Story, Citizen Kane, and Vertigo. That was very notable because Vertigo unseated Citizen Kane, which had been the long-running number one. Yes, it's important to note that you went from 10 to 1 there. So Vertigo was number one. Anyone who reads lists with number one first is deranged

and doesn't understand the art of list making or just editorial judgment at all. We are fully on the same page in that respect. This year, as you mentioned, Singing in the Rain comes back into the top 10 at number 10. Man with a Movie Camera still here at number nine. Mulholland Drive at number eight, as you mentioned, Singing in the Rain comes back into the top 10 at number 10. Man with a Movie Camera is still here at number 9. Mulholland Drive at number 8, as we said. Claire Denise Beaudreville at number 7. Sick. Which is pretty amazing too.

A handful of female filmmakers on this top 10. Number 6, 2001 is back. Number 5, as we said, In the Mood for Love. Number 4, Tokyo Story. Number 3, Citizen Kane. Number 2, Vertigo. And at number 1, Jeanne d'Alont, the Chantal Ackerman film, which is this amazing portrait of a woman who is working as a sex worker and also a housewife. And it's this long, long film, which has become, I think in the last 20 years or so,

like a huge object of affection and fascination and a huge influence on a lot of, especially European filmmakers, but also American filmmakers as well. So pretty radical shift in the top 10. It seems like they held about six, four new entries, some classic re-entries, some kind of like, I mean, Bo Travai and In the Mood for Love and Mulholland Drive makes this like a startlingly contemporary list. Not to mention, as you go through the top 100,

there are a lot of newer films that are installed. The film that seems to be the most immediately, I don't want to say controversial, but noted is that Portrait of a Lady on Fire is in the top 30, which is high placement for a very recent film. The way that you noted that to me is I think the right way to contextualize it, which is someone observed, oh, now I feel bad for Portrait of a Lady on Fire because it is ranked above all of these other like fantastic films that the Cahiers Duchamp's of the world will get really mad about. Like, oh my God, like eight and a half is, you know, whatever. It's literally eight and a half and then Portrait of a Lady on Fire. Eight and a half was

in the top 10 last time. I do, I understand that. And Portrait of a Lady on Fire is like one of my favorite films of the certainly the last 10 years. So I'm thrilled to see it in there, but it's the quirks of the list. I was about to ask you a lot about like the process behind this list. And I think we should probably save that for Monday. Yeah. Let's, let's, let's go deeper into that. And then, and then I think as the day unfolds that we'll also see the director's list, which will also be pretty meaningful. This, I think, not unlike the Academy, the voting block is becoming more and more varied,

more and more diverse, and certainly younger and changing. And the idea of what is film history is really meaningful. I think for long stretches of time, these lists, and they've been done for several decades now, were dominated by films that were released in the 1920s and 30s. For long stretches of time, these lists, and they've been done for several decades now, were dominated by films that were released in the 1920s and 30s. You know, Man with a Movie Camera and Battleship Potemkin and Sunrise.

And some of those films are still here, but you can see that the balance of power is really shifting. The idea of three movies released in that 1998, 2000, 2001 corridor being here is pretty radical. It's not surprising. I think a lot of people who follow this stuff closely predicted it, being here is pretty radical. It's not surprising. I think a lot of people who follow this stuff closely predicted it, but it is very interesting.

So we'll dig much more into that next week. Curious to get CR's take. I know CR is a huge man with a movie camera guy. We were just talking about that film recently. It's the JMO extra episode.

Speaking of man with a movie camera, I wanted to talk about a doc before we got into our best picture stuff. Damn, you're getting so good at the segues. There's a new movie on Netflix this weekend called Senior, which is a documentary, if you heard our conversation about my visit to Telluride in September, you know that I was very, very high on this movie. This is a documentary directed by Chris Smith, but produced by Robert Downey Jr. and his wife Susan Downey. And it's about Robert Downey Jr.'s father, Robert Downey Sr.,

who is a, I guess, an underground outside artist filmmaker, a figure of kind of 1960s rebellion and cynicism, and a person who looms large in Jr.'s life. And this is a very intimate movie and definitely one of my favorite movies of the year. I was very excited for you to see it and to get a chance to hear what you thought of it. So what did you make of Senior? Yeah, I thought it was incredibly moving and extraordinary.

And it has that thing that all great documentaries have of, like, I can't believe that all this was captured on camera and that invitation to see things that you don't, you never get to see. And that maybe you like often don't even get to live. And I thought what was so fascinating, because this is a movie about Robert Downey Jr. making a movie about his father as a filmmaker. And then it does become a movie about Robert Downey Sr.'s illness. And about, so it becomes about fathers and sons and art and also family and things said and unsaid

and influences both artistic and personal. And to some extent, like maybe not making amends, but making peace with life's lived and a life ending and you almost get the sense that there are certain things that they would not be able to say to each other if they weren't doing this project i had the same thought which is really like genuinely moving and beautiful to see and also again something that it like it is very rare and clearly rare to them and I think rare to any like honestly most families you know and and most relationships and you know you add on top of that I think it's an incredibly effective like document

and tribute to Robert Downey Sr.'s career which is not something I knew a lot about. A fascinating window into Robert Downey Jr. and the walls kind of come down a little bit throughout the movie. And I think ultimately he's really like vulnerable and insightful. So empathetic, yeah. I like really came away like hugely impressed. Totally. And like moved by him and even his own insights into how what this project is doing for him. I am fond of saying that like therapy ruined art, but I just think that this is like a very present and insightful document of like honestly emotions and feelings.

You're coming to terms for sure. Yeah, totally. So I think it's really extraordinary sure totally so i think it's really extraordinary yeah i think it's really special so a few things about it i re-watched it last night um i have a lot i have a lot of feelings about this movie uh one it's chris smith as i said i and a caveat like the ringer films is working on a chris smith project there you know you can take my opinion for what it's worth i've i, I've met Chris, I've worked with Chris on something. Um, but he, this is the director of American movie, the director of Jim and Andy, the director of a number of, um, you know,

the fire festival documentary. Like he's one of the signature documentarians of our time. Now he did a hundred foot wave on HBO a couple of years ago. Um, he has a real knack for complicated hyper structures that seem simple. This movie has actually, on the one hand, it seems like, okay, vanity project from a movie star about his family. That's one thing. But also, the family member that it's focused on is a filmmaker. So inside of this film, he's making a film.

So we watch Senior making his movie while Junior is guiding Chris and his team to make the movie that he wants to make. And then this becomes a movie about Junior and Senior finally talking to each other about some things that maybe they haven't talked to each other about in a long time or perhaps ever. And then it becomes a movie about, as you say, this illness and kind of coping with this illness all on this parallel track that is happening where it is this sort of like, not unlike Noah Baumbach's De Palma documentary, where it's like, just a filmography movie, which is like,

one of my favorite kinds of movies. Those are very simple movies, but just directors talking about their work over the course of 20, 30, 40, 50 years. This is all happening inside of 90 Minutes.

This is a pretty brisk, tightly managed movie. And it is also a movie about, like, you know, kind of a guy still in therapy, Robert Downey Jr. And at times, almost literally.

And so there's a lot happening and it doesn't feel seamless. And that seems very purposeful. You know, like the messiness is a kind of a theme of the story. And the documentary crew becomes like minor supporting characters in the film.

But I think the way that they handle that is beautiful and deft and like that the seamlessness is like also or the the messiness is part of the art as well like everyone is figuring that out and that also becomes part of the project and then it becomes a movie about legacy too because then Downey Jr's family starts to become more enmeshed in the story and his son becomes a part of the story so anyway I, this is a tremendously deep and raw kind of a thing to put on screen. Set aside whatever your cynicism

is about actor vanity. For me personally, Downey Sr. is really an interesting figure. So, my dad is like a cop and a very authoritarian classic blue collar kind of a guy. My mom was like a hippie, basically. She was like a Wood and a very authoritarian, classic blue collar kind of a guy. My mom was like a hippie, basically.

She was like a Woodstock kid. And one of my mom's favorite movies of all time is Putney Swope. She used to talk about Putney Swope all the time. And you couldn't see Putney Swope when you were like 14 in 1998. It was kind of a hard movie to track down. They weren't renting it at Blockbuster.

This is one of, this is probably Senior's most well-known movie and one of the true like outsider underground films of the late 60s. And a film, you know,

that's in league with like Sweet Sweetback's Badass Song and like a handful of other films and Easy Rider and a couple of other movies that were sort of

made independently that defied the establishment. This is a movie set in an advertising agency about an older black employee of the advertising agency who sort of takes over and then creates a kind of magical chaos inside the agency. So there's time spent in the movie about that movie.

But I knew about Putney Swope at a very young age. Come to the late 90s, Paul Thomas Anderson hits the scene, my favorite filmmaker, and all he can talk about is Robert Downey Sr. This is his favorite director, I guess, alongside Jonathan Demme. Everything that he did. Two tons of Turquoise to Tows Tonight, Chafed Elbows, Greaser's Palace, all of these movies that Sr. made, which are, you know, candidly, very unconventional and at times not enjoyable. I mean, they're really odd, sort of plotless, narrative-less gag machines. And sometimes the ideas are so opaque that you can't really fully understand them, but loyal allegiance student that I am. I just threw

myself into seniors movies in the early two thousands when I went to college and could get my hands on them. And then criterion, I think eventually put out a little mini box set of all the seniors movies. And they're just like a head trip. They're just a mind blower. And they're a guy not living in Los Angeles living in New York doing what he wants to do with his family actually the only

movie of his that I've never seen is called pound which is talked about in seniors the first film that Robert Downey Jr. ever appeared in about 16 dogs that are in a

pound and are being prepared to be exterminated except those dogs are played by human beings right Right, yeah. Senior is like an amazing person in the history of movies. And so if the movie was just that, if it was just the De Palma thing,

it would have been candy for me. But making it this like really complicated story about your parents and what you say to them and don't say to them before they die is really just got me, just hit me. And it's beautiful because you're also watching robert downey jr try to understand like and and process his dad's like filmmaking as well as and so he's the vessel to understanding the the career as well as the person yeah and because he's asking him questions about his career. He's like, what was it like when this happened or when we made this movie? Right. And he's also aware,

you know, he says at one point that this was going to be a movie about the end of his career. So even before this movie becomes like a real capstone, it's about trying to summarize and make sense of this person and what he meant in Hollywood and also what he meant to Robert Downey Jr. as a father. So, I mean, the layers are amazing and easy to track, but it is just genuinely moving. That's the, you know, it's emotionally just... It's powerful. Yeah.

It's powerful. Highly recommend. Senior is great. Check it out on Netflix this weekend. I don't think Senior is going to be contending for Best Picture. Maybe for Best Documentary. That'll be interesting to see how that category shakes out.

I think Laura Poitras, who I talked to at the end of this episode, will definitely be contending as well for all the beauty and the bloodshed. Right. How are you feeling about the Best Picture race right now? Not fab, but also great.

What do you mean by that? So I think the macro view of the Best Picture race that I would like to make into reality is really fun. Okay. And it's Top Gun versus Tar. Let's just do it. I don't think we're headed there.

I know. We're not headed there. But, like, that could be fantastic. Right? And that could be really fun. And that is also about, like, big budget spectacle and studios versus like art cinema. And that is about, I don't know, like arts and art and artist and morals and ideas. The canceller and the cancelee. Well, you know, it's just it's about everything.

But those are two movies where everyone I know who has seen both of them is like that ruled. And many more people have seen the first one which would help with your you know obsession with the ratings and maybe you could get like a good night's sleep for once in your life settle down and and i think the tar helps with the like oh we can still you know make art even if people don't go to theaters to see it it has been fun hearing more and more people see tar yeah and hearing their reaction to it people mostly liking it although i heard of one very well-known person recently who saw it and did not like it i won will not reveal their name. Okay. Will you tell me off mic? Maybe. Okay. Wow. Come on. What is this? It's LeBron James. Okay. He hated it.

It's not LeBron. So that could be really cool and fun and also like a horse race, you know, and we could have something to be excited about. Yeah, I think you're right. We thrive on the narratives, right? And those are both two really good films that we're really fond of. It would be fun to kind of pull apart. That's part of the anxiety of these conversations. And I'm increasingly getting over that stuff. But has been like, do I have to talk about this movie again?

Do I have to talk about this movie again? But those are two movies that like, I think they have a lot of depth. There's a lot to pull apart. Exactly. but those are two movies that like I think they have a lot of depth there's a lot to pull apart exactly so that's why I brought those forward as like a macro best picture race and narrative that I could be excited about on the I'm not feeling so great side is the fact that you pointed out that that's pretty unlikely and that there are a bunch of other movies that we're just gonna have to talk about well I do believe pretty strongly that both of those films will be nominated for best picture yeah so what we have that what will I do if Top Gun Maver of those films will be nominated for Best Picture. Yeah. So we have that.

What will I do if Top Gun Maverick is not nominated? It's not impossible. I know it's not impossible, but like, what kind of protest? What will you do? Yeah, what kind of protest should I stage? Prostrate yourself aboard the billboard on Beverly promoting their FYC campaign? I don't, you should think of something. I don't want to imagine me just climbing up the billboard on Beverly promoting their FYC campaign. I don't, I don't, you should think of something. I don't want to imagine me just climbing up the billboard.

If it's not nominated. Yeah. You and I recreate word for word the motion smoothing video that Cruz and McQuarrie did. Okay. Is that a deal? Yes. Okay. And we publish it on the winner.com.

Okay. Who's who? I think I'm McHugh. Okay. I think it's safe to say you.com. Okay. Who's who? I think I'm McHugh. Okay. I think it's safe to say you're Cruz. Okay. Do you agree? I mean, I do.

And I don't know whether I'm happy or sad about that. But that's for you. You want to be McQuarrie? No, no, no, no. I think I'm ready to take on the... Who has a more maniacal smile laugh? Me or you? I don't think either of us wants the answer to that question i think

there are going to be a lot of people in our twitter comments letting us know so that's at sean fennessey okay leave me out of it i broke these down by tiers yeah all these films i listed 25 films now a couple of caveats me personally i have not seen a handful of these movies i've not yet seen babylon i've not yet seen avatar the way of water you haven't seen either of those yet that might be it for me in terms of movies i haven't had a chance to see i think um i know there's a couple more on your list that you haven't seen but not many not many i have not seen bardo okay i have not seen empire of light you haven't seen emancipation have you and i haven't seen emancipation yes so i will see that yes um oh okay well boom why Yes. Oh, okay. Well. Boom.

You're roasted. Why don't you send an invite? Because I didn't set up the screening. Okay. Well, sometimes you do. Whatever. Great podcasting. Yes.

Love to talk about our screening dates. And then, well, what else are we going to talk about until March? Okay. March 12th. That's the other thing. You asked how I'm feeling about the Oscars, and I'm feeling like, let's keep it moving. Can I be honest? I feel like I exercised extraordinary restraint by waiting to do this until December 1st. Okay.

Did I not? Yes. Thank you. Congratulations. Let's keep it moving. Okay. And I still have not seen Living. Oh, yeah.

Okay. I received a screener of that film, so I will bring it to your home. Okay, great. Thank you. And this is like the big oversight because I was really trying to go see RRR in a theater on a big screen. I never did. I never saw it on a big screen. But there have been various kind of awards, like screenings, because there is a campaign for it. And I would like to have that experience if I can.

Maybe we can go together. Okay. Because that was sort of during the intense baby phase for me. That's right. So I got to catch up. It's been about six months since I talked about that film on this show. I'm dubious that it's going to be able to make the push that it's trying to make. It's cool that they're doing that.

You know, if Top Gun Maverick wasn't around this year, I weirdly think it would have had a better chance in that sort of spectacle spot. And who knows what's going to happen with Avatar. But nevertheless, let me just share what I think. Do you think these tiers are reasonable, the way I've got this broken down? Yeah, for the most part. If you want to slot in something higher up,

of course you can do that. Tier C, I've got The Woman King, Triangle of Sadness, She Said, Glass, Onion, and Knives Out, Mystery, Empire of Light, Emancipation. Now knives out mystery empire of light emancipation now empire of light and emancipation are not yet out those are um sam mendes's uh personal reflection on his life in the late 70s early 80s and emancipation is the new will smith vehicle that is coming to apple tv plus on december 9th this is a slavery drama uh till decision to leave

bardo living which is also not yet released a bill nighy English film, a kind of remake of Akiru, and RRR, the aforementioned. Tier B, I have Women Talking, which actually was pushed back. I don't know if you saw this. It is now not coming out until December 23rd with a wide release in January, which some people think may have been a mistake. So it was originally supposed to come out this weekend. Okay. The Whale, which comes out next week, and we will be having a special guest on our show to talk about that film and Brendan Fraser.

Sure will. I'm seeing The Whale this afternoon. I still haven't seen The Whale. Okay. But, you know. Well, we can talk about that. Babylon, The Woman King. Excuse me, I've got The Woman King here twice.

I think The Woman King should be in Tier B. I do too. Pinocchio, theillermo del toro adaptation avatar the way of water black panther wakanda forever which i had out and now i'm having second thoughts and i feel like actually has a better chance than i thought based on the numbers based on the numbers i do think that angela bassett has a major chance. And I think that's great. And that was one of the standouts of an otherwise not-so-hot film-going experience for me. We're not in the majority on that. But we have had people come to us and say, yeah, I see you.

And I can only speak what my experience was, which is that I did not enjoy myself. Well, here's an interesting... And the last film I'll mention in Tier B is was, which is that I did not enjoy myself. Well, here's an interesting, and the last film I'll mention in Tier B is Close, which is Lucas Daunt, the Belgian filmmaker's A24 film, which also comes out later this year, which is apparently doing very well in Academy screenings because it's a very emotionally affecting film and really moving people.

Let's do Tier A, and then I want to pause at the first kind of what if to you. So Tier A is The Fablemans, Everything Everywhere, All at Once, The Banshees of Indischaran, Elvis, Top Gun Maverick, and Tar. I feel pretty good about that as a strong six. If any of those six films are not nominated, I think I'll be pretty surprised. Anything there that you think could fall out? The people really love Elvis. I liked it.

You're the one who was like, who ran away. I'm not a fan of the movie. I don't get, I don't, that's not true. I I liked it. You're the one who was like, who ran away. I'm not a fan of the movie. I don't get, I don't, that's not true. I do get it. I understand. Apparently it is,

forget about Close, it is really, really playing very well with the Academy. Every conversation I've had with producers in the industry who are like going to screens, people are,

it's like standing ovations. Austin Butler minted as a major movie star. That I think is true. And I think Baz Luhrmann, there are a lot of admirers and he's a very hit or miss filmmaker, but you know, Moulin Rouge was a major hit with the Academy. The Great Gatsby was a hit with the Academy. These movies can work with the Academy.

So for me, it's a no, but that doesn't, my opinion doesn't matter in this case. The first kind of what if to me is, does glass onion have a better chance of getting in than black panther as a the pair of kind of sequels and i guess topkin maverick is also a sequel and that would be really unusual to have three sequels in one year get nominated it seems entirely possible and netflix doesn't have a movie right now yeah and i does seem like they're gonna put their weight behind that one based on some other you know i have not been invited to any bardo like events in the last few weeks you know it's surprising yeah i don't i mean maybe they're having them and i'm not like

aware of them but it's kind of i was invited to a pga event that barry jenkins is actually moderating okay right he did love it. Next week. It seems quiet and it seems like Glass Onion is the noisy one with them. Yeah. I mean, Bardo is going to contend for international feature for sure. I would not rule out a Best Director nomination, even if Bardo doesn't get into

picture. Ina Ritu is beloved by a sector of the Academy. Right. I'm not ruling it out of Best Picture entirely. I think it's not really here yet. It's not really here until it's on Netflix on December 16th. Right. But they have historically started their campaigns

even for the films that they don't release on Netflix until late December, which is the thing they keep on doing, which I don't totally know if that works for awards, but it has not historically. But they always get a ton of nominations. Sure. They always land a lot of nominations.

This is the first year in a long time where it's unclear if they have a best picture contender. And furthermore, I mean, I guess you could make the case that Del Toro's Pinocchio is also one of those. And that might actually emerge as one of the 10 in part because Del toro is probably the single best campaigner right everybody loves guillermo and he's very good in these events he's an incredible public speaker and he's a genuinely nice guy so you could see a world in which where there's like a an open 10 slot and this feels like a year where there's an open 10 slot and we'll figure that out as we talk through this um that it slides in there but that that's an interesting question of, like, is Black Panther automatically out?

Is it possibly in because it's really going to turn out to be the number two box office movie of the year behind Maverick. And the last film was nominated. Coogler is really appreciated internally. There are a lot of factors this year. That is true. But it does also feel like the Academy still has like one spot for box office and one spot for, you know, a sequel and one spot for they're not going to. I think Black Panther was nominated for Best Picture because they were finally like, OK, here is a superhero movie that we actually feel OK about. I think you're right. Rewarding.

Yeah. Which, you know, it is one of my favorite of the Marvel, probably my favorite of the Marvel movies. So, like, I get it. Yeah, the original Black Panther, not Wakanda Forever. So, if they're already giving that to Top Gun in terms of box office, in terms of sequel, then I don't know whether the tent is wide enough. I'll tell you this.

I don't think the 10 is wide enough for, I don't think the Academy will go for Top Gun, Maverick, Black Panther, Wakanda Forever, and Glass Onion. That seems like too much flexibility for them. Do you think that both of them will miss? Glass Onion and Wakanda Forever? Can we build out the other nine? Yeah, but I always think it's fun to start with 10 because then it really puts you to it. Okay, you think it's 10?

Because I think this is basically the 10th slot. Okay. Now, that may not be true. I honestly don't even... I think Glass Onion's probably like an eight or nine slot. I don't want to talk too much about it right now because most people have not seen it despite its one-week box office success. People at large seem really jazzed about it it's very very positive reception yeah i both critically and in sort of like in the industry and fans have had a chance to see it had a huge response at toronto where it was rolled out which you know so it sort of seems like a fan favorite yeah situation and i think even it's it's funny none of these sequels have a two in the title but the

way that they've just given it a new name smart yeah it is very smart and i think will make people forget that it is just like part of a 400 million dollar franchise well this is sort of an impossible task because we haven't even said avatar the way of Water, which is also a sequel. Mm-hmm. And there's a universe in which there's four sequels. Right. But I don't think it's likely anymore. You don't think Avatar the Way of Water is likely anymore? I think it's still unlikely that Wakanda forever gets in. I do too.

Glass Onion, I can't figure out. So, Rian Johnson was nominated for Best Original Screenplay for the original film, and there were only nine nominees that year. And it is conventional wisdom that if there were a necessary ten, as there are this year, there have to be ten nominees, that Knives Out would have been the tenth. So, there's a strong feeling in the Academy for Rian, for these stories. The film will have to go into adapted screenplay this year because it is a sequel based on a previously seen character. But it's a week year in adapted. And that's why it's almost certainly going to go into adapted screenplay this year because it is a sequel based on a previously seen character. But it's a week year in adapted.

And that's why it's almost certainly going to be in adapted. So it's going to be campaigning. And I was going to say, talk about great campaigners. He has less experience than Del Toro, but like people love Ryan Johnson. Same thing.

Great guy. He's like a fun guy to talk to. So it's easy. And he seems like he's real menschy. So you want to put Glass on Unit 10? Is that what you're saying? I want to put it at like nine he seems like he's real menschy yeah so you want to put glass on unit at 10 is that what you're saying i want to put it at like nine okay let's put it i think it's pretty much happening okay that's great i like your boldness thank you um what do you think is it number 10 then is there something that you're like i'm not so sure about this but it

feels like it's in right now i'm i'm looking right now i, I'm really lost with kind of five through ten in the best picture list. And I'm, and I'm, I don't want to step on Monday's podcast. I'm at sea a little bit

with the year in film. So, that's, that's where I am. I just, yeah. Too bad this is your job. No,

I'm not at sea. I mean, I've seen a lot of movies, but in terms of being like, you know, these movies have the juice and I feel connected to all of it. It's too early for consensus. Yeah. But, but I'm also a little bit like, you know, these movies have the juice and I feel connected to all of it. It's too early for consensus.

Yeah. But I'm also a little bit like it's top heavy for me. There are a couple that I'm really psyched about. And then I feel kind of betwixt and between about everything else. So I can't even like advocate for. So it seems like Women Talking is going to get in. I believe so. It is plausible that they made an error by moving it back.

I don't. I think that the title Women Talking, the cast, people liking to, you know, vote their supposed morals with an Academy Award vote, it'll go in. We'll talk more about it when it comes out. I liked parts of it and didn't like parts of it. I was definitely higher, it'll go in. We'll talk more about it when it comes out. I liked parts of it and didn't like parts of it. I was definitely higher on it than you were.

I think 10 is a good spot for it at the moment. Okay. It's just a festival movie at this point. Oh, I think it's like an 8. So we're holding 10? I don't know what I'm putting a 10.

I told you, I feel a bit at sea. We're working through it in real time. All right, all right. Women Talking is going in. You haven't seen The Whale yet. Brendan Fraser will almost

certainly be nominated for his performance in that film. There's aale yet. Brendan Fraser will almost certainly be nominated for his performance in that film. There's a strong feeling that Hong Chao may also be nominated for Best Supporting Actress for her work in the movie. That feels like one of ones where it's like,

actually she's being nominated for her work in the menu. You know? And this happens sometimes. Well, I think it's a carryover from downsizing too. People really liked her in that, but they didn't like that movie.

But when people have like a couple movies in the same year, they often get nominated for like the quote like serious one but people like the other ones. I liked her work in

Inherent Vice where she was working the front desk at the massage parlor where there was sex work happening. Remember that? Great scene. All right.

Remember Inherent Vice? That was good. I think I put it like way down low when we did the PTA rankings. I'd like to redo those. You did because I don't have a lot of affection for it. But I think it's very relevant to another film that we're going to talk about at some point this year.

But that is notably absent from this list. And I'm not going to say its name yet because you put a gotcha question at the end of this podcast. Okay. It's not gotcha if I put it in the outline. Yes, but you were going to pose it's not gotcha if I put it in the outline. Yes, but it's... You are going to pose it as a gotcha like listening-wise.

The listener doesn't know what's at the end of the outline. It's completely destroying the quality of podcasting. Okay. So, I was very mixed on The Whale.

Yes. You have made that very clear to me. Very mixed on The Whale. There are things about it that I liked and things about it that I really did not like.

I am a hardcore Darren Aronofsky fan, so it was a little troubling the things that I didn't like about it that I liked. There are things about it I really did not like. I am a hardcore Darren Aronofsky fan. So it was a little troubling. Yeah. The things that I didn't like about it. Babylon, which neither of us have seen yet, which I'm just tremendously excited for, if I'm being honest.

Maybe that's 10. I think it kind of feels like it's out right now based on the reaction. That's why I'm like a 10. Well, to me right now, I feel like the woman king is the one that has a chance. That's exciting. Because if Babylon and the whale don't make it, all of a sudden, 10 is up for grabs.

10 is like loose change now. And the woman king just has to run a good campaign. And I'm not sure that they're doing that yet. Well, Gina Prince-Bythewood was given a tribute award at the Gotham Awards, which is always a good sign. You want to see your people on the honorary guaranteed show up to our awards dinner circuit. Well put. You know, which is great.

She deserves it. The other tributes at the Gotham Awards were Michelle Williams and Adam Sandler, who gave a transcendent award speech. Just a go. Yeah. That is a great award ceremony hack is just give Adam Sandler an award and he'll always do a funny speech. The rumors of the Safdies Sandler reunion is like my heart is a flutter. I'm so excited. My gut is telling me that it's either the Woman King or Pinocchio at 10 right now.

And that is with no information about the way of water. Okay. So the way of water, I feel like, is going to ultimately have to be an N.A., not applicable to this conversation because we just don't know. And we will not know until December 12th. Do you feel stupid right now? For saying that? For counting out Big Jim? Yeah. I'm putting N.A. I'm not saying you're out.

Yeah, but we should know better. We should know better. We should know better. I'm just really in the Big gym tank after, you know. Literally, in the tank. In the tank. In the water tank. With the free therapy that he's giving Kate Winslet and me.

What a psycho. I just love him. He's great. The thing about the organic brassicas, I'm sorry. I just, I'm going to need five minutes at the end of some podcast where I can just read all of his quotes from Zach's piece and just be like this is James Cameron episode we're doing when Avatar the Way of Water comes out great anyway so you think we should forget about the woman king forget about Guillermo del Toro's Pinocchio we should forget about the woman king and I'm sad

to say that I don't think that we should forget about Pinocchio even though it just like cut me a break you know could I go one year without this stuff? I understand. Incredible technician. You get nine films that are live action. One film that features the wonders of animation and you're all bent out of shape about it. The power of filmmaking. I know.

Just like. I literally don't know what you're playing about. Remember when you made me watch the Carnies movie and then. Nightmare Alley? Yeah. Sick movie. It's a hard no for me.

Sick movie. I'm willing to okay so theoretically we have we have eight spots to fill we filled nine and we filled eight was Nightmare Alley last year it was and so it got nominated for best picture yeah I'm gonna give you a spoiler alert for a future episode I spoke to Park Chan-wook

which was a real thrill for me on the podcast. And I asked him what's the last great thing he's seen. And he said Nightmare Alley. Yeah. I know you have your little crew. Park Chan-wook, certified genius filmmaker. Absolute genius filmmaker. Guy loves Del Toro. Everybody, many people do love Del Toro. Get on the level. That is wonderful. And I'm really glad that everybody has their enthusiasm. You just, I'm happy for you'd Park Chan-woo. I didn't. I'm happy for you'd you once again, because you found someone to like carnies with you.

And I just, I don't want to watch. I did all of that. I was so pregnant, Sean, when I watched that movie. And I just. I was pregnant with ideas. Okay. I was pregnant with ideas okay I was pregnant with wonder it's just like

taking me back to a real physical state of like three hours of what's happening and why is Bradley Cooper making that face oh my god

the ending of that movie is so good okay okay probably Pinocchio you can have two from here you can have two from these

these films okay The Whale Babylon The Woman King Guillermo del Toro's Pinocchio, Avatar the Way of Water, or Black Panther Wakanda Forever. Two of those six. I understand that it's literally what I'm paid to do. But this is really hard right now.

Make a choice. One goes to ten, one goes to seven. Okay. This is... I've heard better podcasting you know what i'm sorry that i'm saying in real time also remember when i had to listen to you read a list for like 45 minutes earlier oh my god that was that was you believe it high level podcast no whale i think that's gonna be brendan frazier for best actor only. I haven't even seen it. It's just kind of the vibe that I'm getting.

Okay. You're probably right about Babylon now that I'm, and it's also just coming so late. And I think like the closer we get to the end of the year, the less likely these things are. Strongly divisive movies do not have a good history at the Academy. Right. And movies that are released around Christmas at this point, they just don't have the runway. They don't. But movies about Hollywood do have a long history of being celebrated.

Sure. But we have at least one of those already in the mix. Good point. In the front runners. Good point. Made by a man named Steven Spielberg. Heard of him. So I think that'll take that spot.

Okay. So no Babylon. I just, I don't know that both Pinocchio and Avatar the Way of Water are going to happen. That's a good point. Because, you know, we can all appreciate like craft and, you know. Why do you talk about animation like it's engineering? Isn't it engineering? It's beautiful.

It's art. When they do it well, and then when they do bad CGI animation in movies, I'm really angry. We don't have to worry about that with Big Jim or with Guillermo. That's really true. But I just, again, I think people are going to be like, okay, I'm going to give one spot for spectacle. I don't think people think that way, but I hear what you're saying. I think it does. It shakes out that way.

Yeah, it usually does. I agree with you that they don't. Individuals don't. And that's true for everything we're talking about here. These are individuals who are making choices, but consensus rises. And then you get a sense of like, oh, actually, they did only pick one blockbuster. They only picked one, you know, deeply arty film that has a negative ending. So I was going to give the edge to Pinocchio here because I do think, even though we all know Academy members love a free screening,

that like people, they are going to screenings less. But people also love to go hear directors they love speak in public. So I bet people will be going to both Pinocchio and Avatar, same-ish amount. I mean, will they even do Avatar free screenings or is everyone going to have to pay? I think they will. They will. I think they will. I think, does Disney have anything else in the mix right now?

I don't think so. But we also know that they can't really afford free screenings right now. I guess technically they have The Banshees of Innisharen, which is a Searchlight film. Okay. And that's guaranteed. Yeah. I am going to stick by my principles and I'm going to go with Avatar the Way of Water at 10. Okay.

I like it. I respect it. And then the other one that I can have, I'm going to go with Woman King. At 7. You want to move that to like 8 or 9? Yeah. I'll put it at 8 and Woman Talking at 7. Okay.

I think this is reasonable. Okay. It definitely took you way too long to get there, but I appreciate you nonetheless. Now we're down to our top six. Well, why didn't you have to contribute? What is yours? Well, okay. So here's something that has emerged with what you've put here. Okay.

We've had a foreign language film nominated for best picture quite frequently in recent years. We don't have one right now now the possible contenders would be close they would be uh decision to leave

they would be Bardo they would be RRR triangle of sadness I guess kind of sort of applies there's some non-english in that film

right and is made by non-american filmmaker non-british filmmaker I'm not sure that any of those are strong enough. I wouldn't have been shocked

two months ago if you told me Decision Elite was in the mix and now I'm less sure because I think that film has been a little bit more saddled

with a kind of arty reputation than it even necessarily deserves. Right. I think it is actually an Academy movie but maybe people have not fully

spent time with it. It comes to streaming, actually, a week from today, a week from Friday. So perhaps that will give it a boost. But that's a notable thing for us. It's true. And the four that I've put in this spot is a pretty American set of films. And it is an increasingly international international academy for the betterment of the academy you could make the case that everything everywhere all at once has

you know because it is not entirely in english because it has chinese dialogue and there are chinese actors and um you know it has a hong kong feel obviously like they're i mean i understand that banshees is a searchlight but it's also also like really Irish. So, but that's, again, that might be a miscalculation. What would you sub in there in the top four? Or in the four that I picked? I don't, it's really hard to say what's going to happen with Glass Onion. That's the one that I'm really unsettled on. Because I think people really like it.

I do think people might bust it down for being just like another installment in a way that they wouldn't for something else like this. So I like what you have. Now I'm going to stick with it. I just want to flag though that if Close comes through and hits hard or if the Academy that loves Ina Ritu starts showing out for Bardo, It could happen. It's not out of the realm of possibility. Let's go to our six. So as I said, our six are Fablemans,

Everything, Everywhere, All at Once, Banshees of Innisharen, Elvis, Top Gun, Maverick, Tar. Now, I think when you look at how I've got them listed, you can make the case that that is the order that they're in. I'm not so sure. So Tar at six? Yeah.

Fuck off. You think that those films are running behind Tar? You think Elvis is running ahead of Tar? I'm going to blow your mind. I understand. I think Elvis might be running at one. All right. Well, I just, I don't even know what to say.

Elvis is the second most seen of all these films. Okay. I had a better time at Elvis than you did, but like, let's be real. Elvis is the only other film besides The Fablemans that is made by a team that is like hardcore Academy approved. The Academy likes McDonough, but he's never really truly dominated the Academy.

Three Billboards did well. I don't know. You know me, I don't like Elvis. But it's getting standing O's two to three nights a week at these screenings and sag loves it you're putting tar at six i am yeah i think it has no chance to win i think it's a magical film i don't think it has a chance to win i think kate blanchett will win right if you ask me today gun to my head kate blanchett wins i think so too but i do also think that the small art house movies that we get really excited about have been doing better with Academy Awareness.

Yes. And so. But that could be a pandemic issue. Well, we're still sort of in a pandemic this year. I mean, I know, you know. The world changed. Tar is really good. It is very good.

You can put it at six. That's fine. Well, what do you want put it at six that's fine well what do you want to put at six i want to put elvis i was gonna say elvis but i just think that you know we're talking different people no this is not your personal power rankings this is most likely to win i understand that this is about power when are you gonna accept also that if you you know that saying it and believing it is like half the way to making it happen you know from gi joe what did you what did you say yes as you know that my favorite film gi joe saying it and believing it is making it happen is that what you said if you will it is

no dream is that what you're saying the secret it's but it's just also like you let's give some things some hype i'm gonna need top gun maverick to give me some money if i'm gonna start doing that okay that's true i also have received no money or even special invitations from paramount Let's give some things some hype. I'm going to need Top Gun Maverick to give me some money if I'm going to start doing that. Okay, that's true. I also have received no money or even special invitations from Paramount yet. For the record, I'm not accepting money. That's not what I mean. Nor am I.

I am accepting a Glenn Powell appearance on this podcast. That's different, yeah. I think that would be really fun. But yeah, they're not asking us to say this. I just, don't you feel like it's top three or top four? It's the only movie that everyone's seen. And everyone's like, yeah, that was great. Yeah, but those movies are very rarely at the top.

I mean, the last time a movie like that was near the top, I think, was Avatar. Right. I think that was the last time a movie that won that was like, man, this was a freaking hit. And everyone loved it. I think it was, yeah, the last time something like that really, really contended. But like what are the movies in between Avatar and Top Gun that outside of the Oscars were like a huge hit and everyone loved it and was just like sick? I mean, Black Panther is an example of that. That's true.

And it got nominated. Joker. That was an example of that. It was a huge. It was. But not everyone. Everyone didn't love it. It was controversial. That's different.

It was massive, though. I mean, 1917. That was a Well, but not everyone. Everyone didn't love it. It was controversial. That's different. It was massive, though. I mean, 1917? That was a huge hit. Okay. Yeah, but everyone didn't love it. You know what I'm talking about. That's like an A-plus cinema score.

I don't want to call you loving Avatar, the film Avatar. I liked it. I went. I saw it in theaters after Blizzard. I've told this story like 15 times. Don't try to be the big Jim guy. I'm the big Jim guy. All right? I'm the guy who was there opening night, true lies, just crying.

Just being like, thank you, Bill Paxton, for everything you've given us. You're also the guy who's like, Titanic, are we sure it's good? So, fuck right off on that one. Touche. Okay. Number six is hard. I think it's tar. Okay.

I'm going to put tar at six. All right. It's nothing personal against Cate Blanchett, Todd Field, Nomi Merlin, all the wonderful people who participate in that film. Gustav Mahler? Nothing against... I don't really know enough about Mahler's history to say. I had another person yesterday who came into the office for something for work say that they were surprised to learn at the end of Tarr that Lydia Tarr was not a real person, which is the power of that film. I really can't wait to find out who it is.

Okay. Number five. Yeah. Do you think that we could, like, start, I know legally we can't, like, charging for blind item reveals,

you know, on a one-to-one basis? That would be fun. I've been doing that on my Patreon for a long time. Anytime I, like, insinuate, like, oh, I talked to this person, I won't say who it is.

Okay. Such a terrible thing to do on a podcast. But you know what? I love doing it, so I'm going to keep doing it. I think Maverick is at five. I really, I genuinely, genuinely do.

Okay. I genuinely think that people really like it and that it will be nominated and there is support. Okay. But I don't think it's going to get higher than that in the voting. Okay. You know what? If we look back on this and Maverick wins on March 12th and you and I are screaming like we screamed when Parasite won. But that'll be a great story.

It'll be a great story. It'll be about triumphing. And let the record show that I didn't agree with you. You never wavered. Yeah, December 1st. I think this is too low. I don't think your imagination

is big enough and I don't think that the Academy's imagination is big enough. And I challenge everyone to dream bigger in 2023. You never breached the hard deck. Yeah.

Okay. Top Gun Maverick in five. I'm sorry to tell you. So we, on the flight home from Thanksgiving, me, my husband, and my nine-month-old son, there was 45 blissful minutes when my son decided to sleep on my lap. And my husband. That's pretty good. Yeah, it was pretty good.

He did his best. You know, one of my, I love him. Thanks for weighing in on that. That's pretty good. Yeah, it was pretty good. He did his best. I don't, you know, one of my, I love him. Thanks for weighing in on that. I just, I don't know. So 45 minutes where I couldn't move, but, you know, I had, I could put my attention elsewhere. And my husband pulled up Top Gun Maverick and fast forwarded right to when Mav does the mission in two minutes and 15 seconds. And he had one earbud and I had the other earbud. And we just watched until Knox woke up.

And that shit goes. That shit is so good. Yeah. Joe Biden should do a speech about that story. This is the new American nuclear family. Whatever. I'm just like, that's a really fucking good movie. And just because you don't have like a big enough heart

and a big enough dream, you're putting it at number five. And I just think that's short-sighted on the part of everyone. Could be. Could be. Yeah. Banshees of Inassurance at four.

Okay. Yeah. Because I think it is appreciated enough and the race is open enough that it could go up but it could also go down. Yes.

McDonnell will be nominated for screenplay. Colin Farrell will be nominated for actor. It's going to be campaigning all the way through. It's going to have a smooth probably controversy-free ride

on like three billboards. There's a lot of admiration for this movie. That's famous last words but yes. That's a good point. God, I hope something terrible doesn't arise.

I hope that I don't really I don't want to do any of those controversies but I also think that the passion is strong but muted for the film.

Okay. What do you think? I think it's respected and appreciated rather than enthusiastic which is, some of that is just like

the nature of the film itself. So I would put Top Gun above it but whatever. The Fableman's Everything Everywhere All at Once and Elvis this is where I think the top three is I feel comfortable with this being the top three at the moment I'm not saying it's where it's going to finish but right now

this is where it is what do you think the order is? Everything Everywhere All at Once just won best picture at the Gothams which is the first kind of award show of the season I think it's probably two. Okay. And Fableman's at one.

I'm starting to feel like it's inverted. Because you think that people aren't seeing Fableman's. Correct. Yeah, but. I know it's Spielberg. I know it's a Hollywood movie. I know it's a wonderful movie. I actually, you know, I listened to the Blank Check episode about it.

And I was like, this is, first of all, amazing episode of that show. I was kind of looking for like a long, long conversation about the movie to kind of help me remember what's good about it. Those guys really know Spielberg really well. They had actually, remember the conversation we had after we saw it about how I had seen the Spielberg documentary a few years ago? And I was like, in that film. He says something, but did he not know? Yeah, I do remember that. My feeling was confirmed

that what i had thought was true and i realized that too and after i read some interviews with spielberg but anyway i i was just listening to that episode and i was like this is a really really good movie and i just feel like no one's seen it yet now part of it is just because it just isn't in some theaters yet and my whole bullshit crisis earlier this week was oriented around like wouldn't it be great if all movies were in 4,000 theaters, which is, of course, ridiculous in a pipe dream. But I just feel like there's not a lot of heat on it at the moment. And the inevitability factor, as we know, that can be a poison pill. That's not necessarily something that you want is to be the early frontrunner in a race like this.

You know, please see The Power of the Dog, for example. Not a good position to be in. You can only be sniped when you're in that spot. That's true, but I think Fableman's is more accessible, just like an easier watch, an easier home watch than Power of the Dog. And it did also win the Toronto People's Choice Award, which is, you know, like an indicator,

usually of the crowd favorite rather than the best picture winner. But it also has this Spielberg of it all. This is something that I think that you observed when we were talking about the movie before the holidays. And then I think also Griffin and David mentioned when they were talking about it,

which is that this is a largely formless movie though. It is very episodic and it is not plot driven and it kind of ambles and shambles purposefully. Pardon the amblin pun. That wasn't good. And I wonder if it will be dinged for that too. Obviously, it's written by Tony Kushner. The dialogue is remarkable. Characterization is great.

That's not a criticism of it. I'm more just, I don't know. There's something kind of scratching the back of my brain about this where I'm like, I know this feels inevitable. And frankly, Steven Spielberg could use another Best Picture win. Couldn't we all? So are you putting it at three? I would put Elvis at three,

Fablemans at two, and Everything Everywhere All At Once at one. And maybe that's just a kind of overreactive sensation. Here's the thing. The Fablemans and Everything Everywhere All At Once, in particular, are really the only two films besides Top Gun Maverick that you walk out of the theater being like, I'm so happy.

Like, I love my family or the exhilaration of adventure. Like, you know, those feelings in recent years have been indicators of success. Coda won in part because it was a feel-good movie at a feel-bad time.

And so that's rattling around in my mind. Now, Everything Everywhere All at Once would be a very unusual Best Picture winner. Which we've increasingly had. We have. And, I mean, you're right that I have been doing straw pulls. What's the best movie that you've seen this year? Like, honestly, trying to put my list together still. And almost to a person, it's loved everything everywhere all at once people had a

great time it was like an indie sensation it's a sci-fi comedy which is not none of those genres have have worked well with the academy i don't think a movie like this has ever been has ever won let alone ever been nominated right and it is also the people that I have been speaking to who are really enthusiastic about it are all significantly younger than the average Academy voter. And I think there is a generational element to this. It is not made by a 65 year old brain. It's not. And it's a pretty different brain than a 65 year old brain the thing is though that daniel shiner and daniel kwan are extremely charismatic guys who are working very hard on the trail doing a lot of screenings charming a lot of people the story that they're telling about making the movie is uber sincere and that plays well in these in these environments you know and

it's very much a movie about family. So, I don't, it's weird because on the one hand, if you had told me in June when we first talked about the movie

that it would win, I'd be like, you're off your fucking rocker. Yeah. You have no idea what you're talking about. Don't you realize that this is the year

of blonde and Babylon, you know, and look at us now. Right. You know, so things do change. I guess I'd be comfortable with Fablemans at one. No, it's fine.

I mean, you can do everything everywhere all at once at one. Like, either way, I'm kind of in hell. What happens when Elvis wins? You liked it. I liked it, but it's like, there have been a lot of movies in recent years where my reaction is i like it until it wins best picture in which case we got to do better as a society i want to get away from that okay i i've fallen prey to that myself now like if fabelman's wins i won't i will not complain yeah i will not complain i liked it but i didn't love it i had notes including the

entire tom Hanks performance and character and I was so confused by it. I, you know, I thought that the like overwhelming

sense of it, the very Baz Luhrmann aspect of it was like very successful. I thought the, or just, you know, he does what he does

and it, I was carried away by it. I thought the Austin Butler performance was great. Like, was it too long and sort of pastiche? Like, yes, but that's fine.

That's what he does. I don't know. I'm just like, I can like something but not love it. And I can say, like, I think this is good, but I don't think that it should win Best Picture. And I can be exasperated at both of those facts. Yeah, that's how I feel about Ambulance. ambulance. I feel like ambulance should be in the mix here. Okay. What do you think? Ambulance number three?

So you left a question at the bottom of the... Well, let me just say, I'm just going to say, you're right. Fableman's at one. Okay. But now that's not a satisfying victory for me. Why does it have to be that way? Who made you like this? Like you, basically. Being friends with you. Okay. I think that's not true.

Okay. I think I was attracted to you as a partner on this show because I was like, she's like me. Okay. Which is to say, insane. Yes, that's true. All right. So Fableman's at one,

but it's real narrow margins in my mind. Everything, Everywhere, All at One's at two. Elvis at three. Everything Everywhere All at once at two, Elvis at three, The Banshees of Indischarren at four, Top Gun Maverick at five, Tar at six, Women Talking at seven, The Woman King at eight,

Glass, Onion, and Knives Out Mystery at nine, and Avatar the Way of Water at ten. I think this is for the most part where I thought we would land. I think there's still a little bit yet to be seen about particularly Avatar the Way of Water and then the way that women talking is received and the way that the Woman King is campaigned.

This would be a pretty sweet top 10. This might be some wish casting. Yeah. I think that we probably underestimated Triangle of Sadness. I think you're right. I think that that has had a lot of international success. Obviously it won the Palme d'Or at Cannes, and people do seem to like it.

It also has name recognition. Yet another example of me really liking a filmmaker, and then they make what I think is their worst film, and that's the one where it's nominated. Right, but there is another sign for you. Yeah. I think that you're right about Pinocchio, though that it's possible, though I'm frustrated. I think that those two are in a really interesting position right now where they could both come out with nominations. And like Avatar could definitely be on the other side or Glass Onion.

And there's plenty of time for the Bardo swing to come around. Yep. So the question that I wrote here that I think is a fun exercise is, if you could choose any movie from 2022 that is not currently in contention and get it in the mix today, what would it be? So you set a trap. You made your little list here, and then you wrote this question down, and you constructed it in such a way that one of your favorite movies of the year, Nope, is not on the list, so you can just say Nope. And I just want

to say that I see what you're doing from a mile away and you took all of the movies that I might have put and you put them in contention one of the best podcasters alive you just omitted nope so you could talk about it and you left me with nothing so my I could choose something that is no it's fine my answer is white noise which is a film you and I saw in New York and I think we both like really liked and enjoyed. And a lot of that was the experience and also our personal relationships and affections for Noah Baumbach, Adam Driver, Greta Gerwig, and also Don DeLillo and the novel itself. Yep. And it just, it came at a great point for us. It still is not out. It's being released.

I haven't seen it since. I really want to watch it again. I would like to see it again as well. I think it's in is it in theaters right now in like one or two theaters I think it was open for about a week right and then we'll be on Netflix at the end of December uh I will be fascinating to see how that is received and I think you're right that it's not in contention I like everything that I said in describing it. So I'd like to have it around on the trail just to talk about, you know, to talk about Bomek, to have him there, to have Greta Gerwig there. I just, it would be nice for it to be a discussion point.

It is a, forgive the terrible phrase, but it is like really, even though it's a period piece of movie for our times, it's about a lot of things that are very resonant. And I think not a lot of these movies are i think women talking in tar are but i'm not sure that most of these other movies are well you don't know about the way of water yet in a sense we're all navi okay um that's a good one cut to like a week when like you do honestly say that like earnestly to me and Chris and then I'm just trying to

respect our planet yeah see me and James Cameron there we go are working to support the ecology of this wonderful world that we are destroying

day by day alright with the military industrial complex and our poisonous corporate bureaucracy okay

I think that's a good pick Adam Neiman was pretty tough on that movie White Noise yeah he was tough on it I think that's a good pick. Adam Neiman was pretty tough on that movie. White Noise. Yeah. He was tough on it. I think that it's not getting a

like universally enthusiastic. It's going to be very divisive. But we knew that. We did. And you asked me to, you know, pick something that... It's not without flaw,

but I think it's fascinating and at times breathtaking. Yeah. I like that they did it and I would like to talk about it more, which at this point

is what being a contention means. Agreed. My pick would be No. Yeah. No shit. Which won't be nominated.

And I'm interested to see how its reputation evolves. It is very high in my personal estimation for the year and I'm not totally

sure how my list is going to shake out but it's got like it's entered, already entered the YouTube zone of like I watch individual scenes, which is, for me personally,

indicates a kind of fascination and obsession. What else is on that list right now? Well, Chris and I have Margin Call as like a big one for that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We always watch individual scenes of Margin Call.

I mean, The Master is like an all-time version of that for me. Same goes for There Will Be Blood. I'm trying to think of what's a recent example. Just the clip

of De Niro smoking while looking at Maury and Goodfellas while Cream plays. Yeah. Just that like eight seconds. I just put that in my blood,

you know, and I'll watch that on YouTube. There's a lot of movies like that. Tar has some scenes like this too. Tar is a YouTube movie in a way. It's a lot of individual

amazing scenes. If I didn't pick Nope, I would pick Armageddon Time, which I don't think has a chance to contend. James Gray is really on the trail at the moment. He was on Fresh Air this week.

He's on WTF today. He's really talking and telling a story. I thought his interview with Terry Gross was wonderful. Much more personal than any conversation I've heard on a movie podcast,

for example. And I think that's a really interesting movie that was like slightly misunderstood. And even by some of the people who celebrated, even by myself, perhaps. Yeah. And so I think that would,

I, I shudder to think what the faux controversies around that movie would be. That's the thing. It's like, it would, it would be nice to talk about it more until it wouldn't be. Correct. Yeah.

How you feeling? Oscars? They're coming up. Four months? Well, they're not really. It's literally a third of the year, you know? Think about all our children will have learned to do in the next four months, you know? That's a horrifying way of putting it.

Yeah. My son will be a year old. That's great. That is great. What are you going to do for the first birthday? I don't know. I would like to have some cake

for myself because I like cake. What are you doing for him? Well, there is some controversy about whether you should give the kid the sugar at the first birthday.

Smash cake? Come on, got to do it. Yeah, but did yours, did Alice's have sugar in it or did you do like the applesauce thing? No, we didn't do applesauce i don't know you know we maybe we'll call eileen and ask her about that okay uh i don't remember what the frost was made of the first day party is where there is the smash cake but then there's like not cake because all of the kids are

one years old and you know they're supposed to be healthy which i admire but when i celebrate a birthday it involves cake i think we should um we should do a smash kick at the end of the Oscars for me and you okay just think with a photo op at the end where we just smash our head into it what do you think I mean that sounds great I really like birthday cake okay so uh this was good we did a good job here did we you were kind of rude about my podcasting throughout so do you want to par for the course course. Will I apologize? No, I will not. And I will never apologize to you. I don't apologize for making fun of your limited mind when it comes to the Oscars. Or in any other fashion. Let's just very elegantly segue to my conversation with

Laura Poitras, the gifted documentarian. Thanks, Amanda. Quite honored to be joined by Laura Poitras on the show. Laura, thanks for doing this. It's great to be here. Thank you. Laura, let's start with when you first met Nan Golden. I'm curious about how you developed a relationship to make a film about her. I mean, I met her, I mean, I met, I first met her through her art, you know, so I didn't meet her in person for, but I'd known her art for many, many years. And then we met when I was releasing Citizen Four, I was at a film festival and she was there on a jury, not for documentary, but, you know, we crossed paths. And so we connected, we exchanged numbers, but we didn't reconnect until 2019. We had breakfast, a mutual friend of ours brought us together because it was another situation of toxic philanthropy in the art world.

And we were working on crafting a letter. And so we sat down. And at that point, Nan had already started her organization to confront the Sackler family. And so then she told me about the film. And at that point, she had been documenting. So the organization she created called Pain Prescription Addiction Intervention Now, she started it. And when they started it, they started filming with the idea of making a documentary. And then about a year and a half into it is when I got involved. I have a lot of questions about how you made the film and your work with her collaborating, but that concept of toxic philanthropy is really interesting to me because an artist

such as yourself, you know, you're not a broadly commercial artist, though your work is often seen. And I assume that you have had some pretty significant intersection with that concept as well. Was that part of what drew you to this concept? Yeah, sure. I mean, you know, there is this moment where cultural spaces have become a battlefield, right? And for people to voice dissent. And that's been happening, you know, for several years now and very much, you know, I think Nan is very much part of that. But I'd been involved. There was a situation at the Whitney Museum where the former vice president, Warren B. Kanders, a group of staff at the Whitney, wrote a letter questioning his role in the museum after kind of there was news articles about a company he owned called Safariland that produced tear gas that was being used against protesters. And so, you know,

the cultural spaces are becoming places where people are voicing dissent. And partly, you know, it's a failure of other spaces to do that, right? Perhaps failure of media, journalism, you know, government stepping in. I mean, the case of Purdue Pharma and Sacklers, this is a really notorious story, you know, like for decades, for decades, it's been known that OxyContin was highly addictive, that it was being promoted heavily to doctors and was destroying communities, you know, and killing, you know, and leading to the deaths of, you know, countless, not countless. I mean, people are estimating that the, from the overdose crisis in general, it's over half a million in the U.S. And that's staggering, but that didn't just happen overnight. That began in the early 2000s. Reports were coming out, raising alarms about

OxyContin. And so then, you know, nobody does, you know, the government doesn't do anything. The FDA doesn't step in and, and then it becomes something that gets focused on in cultural spaces because of the association of the Sackler name with museums. One of the things that is so remarkable about the movie is this convergence of negligence and trauma in the way that you tell Nan's story and in the way you tell the story of this kind of epidemic that has been happening in the country around the world for a long, long time. I was hoping you could kind of talk me through that approach and how you came to that approach in terms of telling the story. So negligence, that's interesting.

I mean, I like the question, like negligence and trauma. I think, you know, to sort of sum up something that is, you know, at the heart of this film. I mean, I very much wanted to make a film that was not just a biography of an artist, but was a societal critique. And I mean, we divided it in chapters and the first chapter of the film is called Merciless Logic.

And we had theme boards about what did that mean? And it just sounds like the merciless brutality of American society, right? That destroys people, that if you're outside or if you're different, if you're queer, if you're trans, if you're, you know, that this is a society that crushes individuals. And so we wanted that to be sort of at the core of the film, that yes, it tracks a lot of tragedy and trauma, but hopefully there's like kind of a pivot from the individual to a societal critique, you know, and particularly around notions of stigma, right?

I mean, Nan talks about a lot of really personal things in the film. And the reason to do that, I think, for her is that other people can learn from it and that to sort of shift the, you know, what society puts, where we place shame. And then, you know, that's very directly articulated when they, you know, say shame on Sackler, shame on Sackler. I mean, the shame does not belong on drug users. The shame belongs on profiteers who, you know, literally sat around a boardroom, knew people were dying and responded to that by, you know, selling more. And, but, you know, but that's sort of the issue of the film. And I appreciate also the kind of question,

the sort of deeper question, because the film does also sort of pivot around Nan's life and the kind of moments in her life where she has, you know, witnessed firsthand, like kind of, you know, both trauma and, um, what did you say? Negligence or? Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, the film just in the first 10 minutes, I thought to myself, Oh, I wonder if this is going to be a slightly more conventional film for you and thinking about just like you, as you said, an artist's life and giving us a

snapshot of where they are today and then cradle to grave and it's obviously something radically different and thematically deep but the way that you built it i thought was pretty special the way it revealed itself yeah we really tried to like there's this kind of like i like there's sort of like stepping in sort of like stages like you're kind of we lay down like one layer of like okay here are some characters and then the the next chapter kind of deepens and deepens and we're hopefully like building something that's you know very specific in terms of the questions we're asking you know why why are certain um people in the film you know and what do they represent to the larger story which is you know i think a story about both the sort of people who reject and resist against the status quo and the society that this sort of pre-invented existence, as David Wannerowicz describes it,

that, you know, that they inherited, just saying like, no, I'm not playing along with this. I'm not going, you know, and that's, you know, very much both in political resistance, but just in, you know, people, how people live their lives, you know, and, you know, hopefully connects to, yeah, Nan's artwork and what drives her and what drives people to make art, you know, and the power of artistic expression. You know, in some respects, this film has a lot in common with your previous work. There is a kind of certainly a sense of protest of alienation, but there's like a real tenderness and intimacy in the story. You've built trust with some complicated figures over the years making your movies. I wonder if you could talk about building trust with Nan in terms of telling this story. Yeah. I mean, you know, as you say, there are these similarities and then there's a kind of emotional depth that this film goes to. And, you know, that's Nan.

That's Nan's work. You know, her work is so raw. It's so honest, unflinching. And, you know, working with her, it was the same, you know, when we started doing these audio interviews, she, it was just unfiltered and in a really powerful way, in a way that I experienced was, you know, deeply emotional to be, to how she talked about her life.

And yeah. And, you know, we, we, we worked together. I mean, she knew, she's a collaborator on the film, you know, she's a producer. She started the film. Yeah. She's, she's a producer on the film and was very much, um, you know, we worked with her, um, in, in making this. What was that like specifically, you know, where you're entrusted to tell this story, but also you have to get feedback from the person who is at the, in the center of the frame. Is that challenging for you? Yeah. I mean, it's more a question maybe for Nan than for me.

I'm sure for her, it's kind of a bit schizophrenic. You're like, it's your life, but you're also approaching, she's also an artist and she's a storyteller. You know, this film, which is so much about such deeply personal things, for instance, her sister, Barbara, like that's a truth that only Nan can talk about and know. So, you know, we, we

worked, we did a rough cut and then we shared it with Nan. And, and then there were sections that she wanted to go back and do more interviews, you know, and particularly around Barbara. So for instance, there's a story early in the film where she describes that Barbara stops, that her mother required pressure of Barbara to speak in full sentences. And that at some point she just stopped speaking, you know, and this is her first act of rebellion. That was a story that came very late that Nan was like, okay, we need to include this in the film. So yeah, there was that kind of back and forth. How is she feeling now that the film is getting out in the world? Have you guys talked about the like, even for her, the incredible level of exposure that she shares in this? You know, I just, you know, cautious not to speak for Nan. So that's a question for her. But you

know, she did, I can say that she definitely, it's not easy. It's not easy to be this vulnerable. And it's scary. I mean, it's obviously scary. I think she feels that the response is, you know, is moving because people, I think that it's resonating, you know, in the way that her artwork resonates, right? The people, she's not the only one who's, you know, suffers from some of the things she talks about, you know, like if that's a loss of a, of a sibling, um, or, you know, other, other issues she goes into it's, um, but I think it's, it's not easy. It's not easy for her. She doesn't do it lightly. Can you tell me about capturing some of the verite aspects of the story? You know, the protest itself is a kind of performance art. And then there's also these sort of meetings that we see with the group um yeah what was it

what was it like to be in those those places i mean you know so a lot of my work is this sort of verite observational you know things happening uh filming them in real time uh the protests several of them were shot before i was involved in the film and they you know were really smart to have a lot of cameras on hand so this like not you know there are multiple cameras that they snuck in you know they had to be a little bit sly getting into these museum spaces um and you know and then um I really wanted to show the behind the scenes of the meetings you know it's kind of the minutiae the nitty-gritty kind of a blueprint like okay how does a small group of people um take on a billionaire family? It was important to show like how small this group of people were that, you know,

we caused a lot of trouble for a lot of museums and board boards and obviously for the Sacklers. And I think that was important, you know, this kind of blueprint for other activists. One of the producers is Howard Gertler who produced how to survive a plague. And that's really just also a beautiful documentary that looks at activism and how it works, you know, the ups and downs. So, and for me, that was the fact that this story,

there was this sort of ongoing contemporary story made me think that I could contribute to telling, you know, that I was the right filmmaker for the project. Yeah how to survive would be a good double feature with with this for sure yeah good and dark yeah yeah bring bring tissues um it did feel a little bit not unusual but um different for you as a filmmaker though not just the verite but this kind of blend of archival and voiceover and still photograph and into camera interviews as well um is that something that you always knew you wanted to use to structure the film it happened over time like you know i as i started the film it kind of like went in different directions that I didn't anticipate. And I think I saw this piece that Nan made about her sister called Sister Saints and Symbols. And it just wrecked me for days.

And, you know, then we talked about whether or not that she would be open to talking about her sister in the film. And I do think that changed the kind of direction that the film took. And in terms of the archival, you know, Nan has an incredible archive of her life and of her artwork, you know, that we were able to draw upon. So I do think with nonfiction, there's always the film that you go in thinking you're making, you know, which changes over time um as you as you explore the topic but then you're also both bound by and liberated by the material that you have to

work with right and so here was an incredible example of a vast archive that we could draw upon to bring something on screen and take you transport you there so if you know nan's early years in her teen years when she first gets a camera from polaroid and she like has the polaroid the images are ravishing they're brilliant and she has them so we can tell the story of an artist coming of age and finding their voice in a way that you probably you know usually could only do with a fiction film right because how many how many people in in the world who you know or artists who were making work that is that good at that young of an age and actually could you know we could show it and so her her archive allowed for something that wasn't that maybe created not opportunities but like structural possibilities that maybe are more suited for

a scripted or narrative film because of the incredible archive of nan's work yeah i couldn't think of too many other artists who were simultaneously as autobiographical and kind of community-oriented as her work is. So it really is charting 60 years of her life and the worlds that she occupied, which is just amazing. Yeah, yeah. And decades of American history, from the conservatism,

women being sexual are dangerous and need to be institutionalized, you know, from the conservatism, you know, women being sexual are dangerous and need to be institutionalized, 50s, 60s, you know, to like trans community when there wasn't really language around queerness and being trans in the 70s. And then, you know, into the, you know, yeah, it just, it, the, you know, her experience in the underground in the 80s, you know, Tin Pan Alley. Like, I love Tin Pan Alley. Like, this is just one of the most beautiful subplots I've ever had in a film. Like, here's this, you know, radical woman, Maggie Smith, opening this fabulous Times Square bar and only hiring women, you know.

Like, it's like only women power and, you know, and then being a place where, you know, she describes it polyglot that, you know, the IRS and artists and bikers and sex workers were all meeting, you know, that's just, it's its own film in its own way. So in a way, like the richness of Nan's life and the archival allowed for these kind of like rabbit holes that were like, okay, we're going to meet Maggie. She's fabulous. And then we're going to sort of resurface and meet somebody else.

I'm fascinated by how you choose projects now. You know, you have a, you're significantly more well-known than you were 10 years ago. And in some sectors notorious, right? So I wonder, there are some people who probably cower at the prospect of being uh behind your lens but then there's other people who would be excited by it

you know in this case it sounds like you and nan you know she wanted you to work on this but how do you pick now how do you decide where to spend three or four years yeah i mean for you know the past work does either close doors or open doors. You know, luckily I tend to be drawn towards sort of like the troublemaker category of people who usually think my past work is works in my favor, but for them in terms of trust. But, you know, there has to be something like a lot of ingredients, like, is it alive? Like, you know, like I'm, you know, there's something about observational filmmaking that you sort of, you, you, the, the, you sort of surrender to events as they're unfolding.

And that's something I really am drawn to because it um it's unpredictable um and there's not really I'm not as worried that people are telling me the you know the version of their past that they've told over and over there's a kind of danger when you know I think Nan talks about at the beginning of the film like stories can be easy or we sort of fall into like traps of telling our stories and we lose the kind of um I guess conflict and drama that you have um when you're confronting um something in real time so um yeah and I mean I I am definitely interested in um exposing power and abuse of power um particularly and also like as an US citizen, you know,

like that kind of positionality around that, like I don't go and tell stories all over the globe, I think as a US citizen taking on the failures of this government is really important for me to do. And then I always want to learn something. And this was an example of an opportunity to work with an artist whose work I really respect and to push myself in different directions. What is your point of view on objectivity and storytelling at this stage of your career? I mean, I don't... Tell me, can you define what you mean by it? I mean, I think I know what you mean by it, but tell me what you mean by it. Well, you used the word nonfiction earlier in our conversation.

And like, for example, you speak to Patrick Radden Keefe in your film, who's a very gifted journalist. him, I suspect he would say he tries to pursue stories with a kind of objectivity. Your stories often feature close proximity to subject. And in order to portray them, you have to engender some trust with them. But also you want to tell their, I assume you want to tell their story honestly. And so I'm curious, like how you think about the balance between being honest and fair to someone versus whatever the perception of like a you know eye in the sky objectivity is well there is no eye in the sky objectivity so like i just would say that but i would say there's a long tradition like i am non-fiction filmmakers are bound by certain journalistic ethics and truth you can't you know you if you're stating a fact you need to do your you know it needs to

be accurate right um but there is also a long tradition of first-person journalism you know people who write from their own perspective from their you know but it still is journalism it doesn't mean that it's not journalism like you are journalistic are bound by those same principles and ethics and relationship to sources and those kinds of things. Like, I feel, yes, I, you know, that my work, I make portraits and that they're particular, you know, but I don't, but there's a film and how subjective or, you know, how much fact checking you can do on something. Somebody's personal experience is their personal experience. I mean, it brings up so many, so many questions because in my early films, like the film I made in Iraq about the occupation of Iraq, I really didn't want to be in that film. It's very observational. And the reason I didn't want to be in the film is that there's like a long tradition of the reporter going to a dangerous place and they become the

kind of focus of the audience's concern and interest, right? Oh, it's dangerous. What will happen to them? And I was completely wanting to reject that, you know, like this was about what was happening, but both for Iraqis and in this occupation. And then I didn't want the audience to be like thinking about my wellbeing. Right. And so it was very much a political choice to, to, to not be in any way present, even though like every time I was in a situation, I could say,

like, I, you know, I'm here because, you know, I've crossed whatever, this checkpoint and snuck in and been smuggled over here. I mean, there was a lot of backstory. And then a film like Citizen 4, I had to be in it. Like it had to be clear, like there was a first person-ness to it that was necessary because I was making a film where I was also one of the people causing what was happening to happen, right? You know, I mean, Ed is my source. Ed Stodin is my source. The audience, I hadn't, the audience had an obligation to know that, that I'm part of this story. And that was a little bit harder because I tend not to put myself in my own work. You know, it took, that took a little bit harder because I tend not to put myself in my own work. You know, it took,

that took a little bit of time in the edit where, you know, people were like sitting me down, like you, you really, you know, this, this kind of like being behind the scenes, isn't going to work in this one. And you know, but I also think, you know, I do feel lucky as, as a filmmaker to be able to, you know, I'm not, I don't have an, you know, an executive editor over me who's telling me what I can and can't say, you know, I'm able to make those decisions on a case by case basis and depending on who I'm filming and my relationship with somebody like, the collaborative relationship with somebody like Nan,

who's talking about deeply personal experiences is going to be different than if I'm talking to somebody who's occupying power and, you know, government power, for instance, I wouldn't have the same kind of collaborative relationship. It would be much more adversarial. Yeah. I asked you, I think in part because this film felt like splitting the difference where you hear your voice a few times and you sense that feeling of intimacy in the conversations that you're having, but

you weren't a character, you know, whereas you felt more like a character in Citizen Four. And I thought that was an interesting choice. One last thing that is sort of related to that, you know, working in the media, I feel like things are moving more quickly than ever in terms of the dispersal of information and the sort of life cycle of a story. And you are taking on big and important stories about information and access to power. And in some cases, like this trauma, this opioid epidemic in this new film. Do you ever worry that the world is moving too quickly for you to have the ability to tell certain stories? I mean, I don't really think of it in those terms.

I mean, I really, I think, you know, I make films because I need to make films, you know, like, and it allows me to talk about the world that I'm experiencing. And I just need to do that. and I hope that I make, you know, make films that speak to the moment, but also speak, you know, into the future. Like I do want, I do hope for that. I think, you know, any work of art, you don't want it to just be something that's relevant for a new cycle. But yeah, I just have to make films.

So I can't worry about, you know, those kinds of questions. That must be wonderful. I admire you that. Laura, we end every episode of the show by asking filmmakers, what's the last great thing they've seen? Have you seen any good films lately? Yeah. I mean, I see a lot. I mean, the last great thing I saw was it's a film called Return to Homes. That's about the Syrian uprising revolution and what happened there.

It's a devastating, haunting film. I recommend people see it. That's a great recommendation. All the beauty in the bloodshed is incredibly powerful. Thanks for your time, Laura. Thank you. I appreciate it. Thanks, Laura Poitras. Amanda, when we come back early next week,

we're going to talk about our top five movies of 2022. How's your list looking? I'm really stressed. I'm really, really stressed. And we'll just talk about it on the podcast. Okay. We'll also talk more deeply about the sight and sound poll. We'll get Adam Naiman's thoughts.

We'll get CR's thoughts as well as his top five. CR is going to be very dismayed to learn that Heat didn't make the top 100. Of the? Of the Sight and Sound poll. Okay, yeah.

It's really, really tough. Hey, Bobby Wagner, are you there? I am, yes. Bob, if you had to vote for Sight and Sound, what would be your number one film?

Quickly answer. Paw Patrol movie? Minions Rise of Gru? Yes. Thank you. Okay, perfect answer. Bob, thanks for your work on today's episode.

Great producer. Tune in next week. Big Picture will be back. See you then.