The Big Picture - Best Picture Power Rankings. Plus: Is ‘Emilia Pérez’ Really a Front-Runner?

Episode Date: November 15, 2024

Sean is joined by Ringer-Verse host Joanna Robinson and The Ankler's awards editor Katey Rich to discuss the state of the Best Picture race. Amid this conversation, they go through the 10 films they think are running hottest to be nominated for the top award at the Oscars and compare their list to the last time Sean did said exercise (1:00). Then, they zero in on one of those front-runners, Jacques Audiard’s ‘Emilia Pérez,’ a challenging swing of a film that's received mixed reviews from critics and Letterboxd users alike since hitting the Netflix service (1:10:00). Host: Sean Fennessey Guests: Joanna Robinson and Katey Rich Senior Producer: Bobby Wagner Video Producer: Jack Sanders Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

I'm Yossi Salek, and I'm here to announce a brand new season of my Ringer original podcast, Bandsplain, the show where we explain cult bands and iconic artists to you and yours. This time, babe, we're going across the pond. That's right, I'm absolutely chuffed to be talking about the music scenes of 80s and 90s Britain. I'm talking Madchester, I'm talking Baggy, I'm talking Shoegaze, I'm talking Britpopmate. So tune in every Thursday starting November 7th for a new episode of Bandsplain on Spotify or wherever you listen to podcasts. What's in this McDonald's bag? The McValue Meal. For $5.79 plus tax, you can get your choice of junior chicken, McDouble, or chicken snack wrap, plus small fries and a small fountain drink.

So pick up a McValue Me meal today at participating McDonald's restaurants in Canada. Prices exclude delivery. This episode is brought to you by RBC Student Banking. Here's an RBC student offer that turns a feel-good moment into a feel-great moment. Students, get $100 when you open a no-monthly fee RBC Advantage Banking account and we'll give another $100 to a charity of your choice. This great perk and more only at RBC. Visit rbc.com slash get 100, give 100.

Conditions apply. Ends January 31st, 2025. Complete offer eligibility criteria by March 31st, 2025. Choose one of five eligible charities. Up to $500,000 in total contributions. I'm Sean Fennessey, and this is The Big Picture, a conversation show about Amelia Perez and the Best Picture race. Today on the show, we are discussing Jacques Audiard's audacious, new, hyper-stylized musical crime saga, trans coming of age, family drama. It's Amelia Perez. We're taking stock of a fascinating for a change best picture race

it's all up in the air right now so I've got two great awards season thinkers here today returning champion and ringer icon Joanna Robinson and her old pal reunited and first time big picture guest Katie Rich Katie is the awards editor at the Ankler the host of the prestige junkie podcast she's been covering this awards game for many, many years. Guys, hi. Hey. I'm so happy to be here. Reuniting with Joanna and with Sean.

We've been on my podcast together. Just reunions all over the place. I'm so glad you guys are here. This has been a really interesting start to the awards race because I tend to think I have a pretty good handle on these things. You've both covered this stuff for many years. I can't recall a time going all the way back to my 1990s reading entertainment weekly era where I was like, I don't really know what's winning, so to speak, what's in the lead, what even the front runners to me are a little bit baffling. And so the movie

that we'll talk about in the second half of this conversation is one of those kind of confusion points for me in terms of it being a front runner. And so I'm curious to think, to hear whether you guys think it is one, but something has happened in recent weeks here in the United States of America, which is there was an election. Donald Trump was elected 47th president. Yeah, it's true, Joanna. Yeah. So that happened. That's a great, we're feeling great. So everything's good about that. And it did have me thinking about 2016, which is a monumental award season year, in part because that was the year

just five weeks after Trump was elected for the first time as president, that Moonlight shockingly defeated La La Land in the great mix-up of that season. And that, I think, changed the Oscars forever. I remember writing a column about it at the time that there had never been a winner quite like that. And there are some people who read that win

as a kind of reaction to the state of the country. Maybe that's over-reading it. I'm not quite sure. But I'm curious, just as a starting point of this conversation, do you guys foresee a response to the world at large in the potential Best picture winner this year? Katie, I'll start with you. I mean, I've been saying for months, like everybody remember in

2016, everyone slightly lost their minds in the awards race. And I think it's not overreading at all to be like, there was this version of the story where La La Land stood in for Trump and Moonlight stood in for Hillary Clinton. And like the further away we get from that, the more insane that those correlations sound. But the idea of supporting a movie that's about, you know, healing past trauma and just like allowing Black people to star in a Best Picture winner, which very rarely happened before, like that was all mixed up in this like resistance era that was just starting at that point. Like Meryl Streep got a standing ovation at the Golden Globes for talking about Muslims. I don't even remember. Like the vibes were so strange. And the thing I can't figure out, you know, we're like

two weeks past or not even two weeks past the election now, is like, it's definitely different this time. There isn't the like resistance energy building. There's not a like, we all want to get behind a Nora because it's a story about a woman and women were defeated this election. Like it feels sadder, more complicated, scarier in some ways. And I, it only muddles the picture. Like I thought we were going to wait until the election and then kind of take a breath and be like, all right, here's what we've got. And like, I feel less clear on it than I did before, which is maybe appropriate for what 2024 has been like so far. What do you think, Jo? You agree with that? Yeah. I think I don't understand what the tone is going to be at the start of next year, because I think everyone is in this sort of, not everyone, but the people who aren't happy with the outcome of the election are in this sort of like-

Which is many Oscar voters. Recoup space. And so that makes me wonder if instead of sort of like spiky resistance, we looking for soothing something that feels soothing and uplifting and that's why i don't want to like jump ahead and things we want to talk about but i will just say like briefly i feel like the wicked narrative has just like snapped into place um as as part of that sort of like let's all rally around something that makes us feel warm and happy um and uplifted um which is not a knock on Anora or anything like that. But all that stuff is more complicated than the more simplistic offering of something like Wicked. So yeah, if you asked me a couple weeks ago, I would have had a very different answer. But that's where I'm

sitting right now. It feels like everyone I've talked to who is unhappy with the election results is seeking comfort. Yeah. Yeah. I have Wicked on my list of critical items to discuss in this episode. I've since seen Wicked. I have not been putting Wicked on our trademarked best picture power rankings at all during this season. Part of that is a me problem, which is that I have not seen the stage musical Wicked. I have not read the novel.

I am just Wicked blind. I am just wicked blind. I was until I saw the movie. Do you know the songs? They hadn't penetrated through in your head? I'm sure I had heard Defying Gravity in a Target at some point. I'm sure that happened. But since I had a kid and The Wizard of Oz became a big part of our life, Wicked became a part of my life through the soundtrack. And so she is really into those songs and is obsessed with The Wizard of Oz.

We were just at the Academy Museum last weekend. We saw The Wizard of Oz there. We saw the ruby slippers. The Wicked conversation is happening in my home on a regular basis. But so I just saw this movie. And maybe we can talk about this first before we talk about the frontrunners, because I think you're onto something, Joe. And I've been trying to sort it out. I think there are some strong cases for Wicked, which is not out until November 22nd, and then there are some

strong cases against it. So I want to kind of vet those with you guys. On the negative side, I don't know if people know this because it's not being marketed this way, but this is a part one of a two-part movie, which if you've seen the Mission Impossible trailer, you know that that's something that we're not that comfortable with anymore. If you saw the way that Dune was marketed and now Dune Part 2, we know that we're not rewarding movies

for their first bite at the apple. That's been traditionally true throughout the history of Hollywood at the Academy Awards. And this is, you know, I don't think I'm spoiling anything to say that this movie ends on a cliffhanger. It ends on a climactic moment, but it is the opposite of resolution and that feels

almost antithetical to the idea of movie storytelling so do you think that'll be held against it in any way i mean i think that's the argument we were making around doing part two at the beginning of the year right that this was like that was the two towers they have to wait for their return of the king part three moment um i think from what i i haven't seen wicked yet i'm seeing it this sunday um though like anecdotally it's kind of hard to get into a screening they are so jammed and popular around here um there's a song about being popular and wicked maybe that's exactly but like part one of Wicked, if people are fans of stage show, part one of Wicked has most of the good songs. And so I don't know that people should like hold out for part two when it comes to awarding Wicked. There are some good act two

songs, but also it ends with no spoiler. Everyone kind of knows this Defying Gravity is like this big is the biggest song out of this huge musical and it ends on this sort of like soaring upbeat. So again, I haven't seen part one and there's definitely more to come, but I could see it being held against it in a different year, but given the lack of like really strong front runner elsewhere, I don't know. I think it has an opportunity. What do you think, Katie? I mean, I know smart people who think that Wicked is going to win Best Picture, people who are more confident than I am in saying anything about what's going to win at this point, although I guess we'll get there. But I think the escapism thing is totally

right. I think, Joanna, you're totally right that the Wicked thing has locked into place. I mean, it helps that they had their premiere earlier this week, I think, like right after the election. So the timing was good, whether they intended it or not. Reviews haven't actually come out yet. Those don't come until a couple days before it opens. So they're being very smart playing the social sentiment embargo game, much as Gladiator 2 did, except they've got all these influencers who like went to this big fancy premiere and are thrilled about it. But I keep thinking about if Barbie couldn't get treated the way that it deserved to as escapist fantasy, like not just that like Oppenheimer beat it,

like Oppenheimer was going to beat Barbie no matter what, but you know, things like the stumps for best director, like the things that it didn't get credit for, like Wicked could get in in a lot of these ways, but to be a best picture winner, you kind of got to have that extra something. And I haven't seen Wicked yet either. So I don't know. I know it's about two women like going up against like a falsely, a false male patriarch, the Wizard of Oz. So who knows? But I feel like escapism is only going to take it so far. And it's going to like with the Academy that we have now, the Academy that voted for Moonlight, you need something else to get across the finish line. Can I just say really

quickly, I'm so sorry. This morning when I was thinking about podcasting with Katie again, I was like, I get to talk to Katie about Barbie, which I didn't get to talk about last year. I wanted to talk to you because I was thinking about Barbie in the context of Wicked this morning as well as I was thinking about this. And it was like making me kind of actually preemptively a little angry because as much as I think Wicked is snapping into place, and I haven't seen it yet. i was texting you a little bit this morning katie like john shoes visual style is not my preferred visual style and if you're going for like sumptuous girly pop glorious technicolor film i would much rather a barbie get this than

a wicked again sight unseen uh or like the fact that i have for like over a month now been hearing ariana grande ariana grande oscar winner in a way that like margot robbie couldn't get in the door is is personally slightly aggravating to me but that being said said i think because wicked laughs like the america ferreira overt feminist speech it might be perhaps be a bit more palatable to the people who felt like barbie was being preachy in a way that i didn't but a lot of people did you know so interesting i if they're concerned about preachy there's like there's plenty of preachiness and honestly. It's a pretty ham-handed metaphor for accepting people who are different from you. This is a really tough one for me because, as I said, I know that there are a lot of people in the Academy that have a lot of fondness for the Wicked stage musical. And that, obviously, it's been one of the most successful musicals of the 21st century.

And so there's already, if you've seen it before or you're familiar with it and you go into it, there is a kind of comfort and then there is an expansion that the director, John M. Chu, applies to the story that is very effective. I thought Ariana Grande was incredibly enjoyable in this movie. Very funny, really elevated the material, I thought. I really enjoyed her, so I get where a lot of that sentiment is coming from. But man, in the history of Best Picture winners, there's not a lot of movies like Wicked. have to go back to the sound of music to find a movie that has the kind of upbeat and color that this movie has now it doesn't mean that other musicals haven't won like oliver won chicago won but those are pretty grimy, dark musicals. And the Academy especially- Even Moulin Rouge is darker than what we're talking about. Completely.

I mean, think about the setting of that film. And so this would be extremely unusual in the history of the Academy. And if it did win, it would feel to me like the first part of our conversation, this kind of boomerang effect on what's happening in the real world is filtering into the conversation because I don't think most people were taking this movie too seriously two or three months ago. And now it feels like it has been elevated significantly.

I mean, for me, at the risk of spoiling my review, like I thought it was fine. You know, I definitely don't think it's bad. It's not a disaster by any means. It's not really my flavor of stylized CGI. Like I just, I have a hard time looking at that production design. But people really seem to like it. So if I'm on the other side of that, I'm okay with it.

It is IP. You know, it's not, this is not that different from Barbie and Marvel and Top Gun. And like, it's an IP movie. But to your point about taking your daughter to go see Wizard of Oz at the Academy Museum, it's IP with a connection to like old school Hollywood. So it feels like it's connected to the grand art of filmmaking, even though it looks to my eye as far away from the glorious technicolor of the 39 Wizard of Oz as you can get. I don't get the John M. Chu aesthetic.

I don't understand the John M. Chu aesthetic. I don't understand its appeal personally but I'm hearing from like a lot of people who have seen it that they you know people who are in

this sort of awards game that they're like oh it's going to win every craft award and I'm just sort of I'm a little baffled by it. God the Dune Part 2 people

are shaking their fit. I mean again I haven't seen Wicked yet, but like, you know, the crafts in Dune, I feel like we were kind of waiting for them to like swing back around and win all the Oscars they did last time. And here this usurper comes around the bend.

That would be a strange and unfortunate outcome if Wicked swept all the crafts. But again, reasonable people can disagree about it. So it is a hopeful story about people standing up to power. It is a kind of a good moment for John M. Chu, who I think really sees himself in the mold of like a Spielbergian, like visionary type filmmaker who takes on big material. And I think often elevates it. Like,

I really liked Crazy Rich Asians. I think In the Heights is a little underrated. I definitely don't think he's a bad filmmaker by any means. I don't think he's Steven Spielberg though at all. I think if the world, if the Academy wants to try to elevate someone, there's an opportunity there with him. More than anything, the reason why I have been kind of flipped on this and starting to feel like it's going to get in there, at least into the race, is the telecast really needs a movie like this. When you look at the potential lineup, setting aside Dune Part 2, it is a deeply uncommercial collection of movies this year. And especially having now seen Gladiator 2

and being a little bit iffy on if that's getting in, I don't know. We kind of need to see Defying Gravity on the telecast because I'm not sure who's going to tune in to watch this. What do you think? They can't nominate Defying Gravity because it's not an original song. There are no original songs of Wicked. do know that much um which is there are

some in the second part I have been told but it's fascinating to me that they did not they were like I think the story is that it's like there's too much going on we can't make room for it like this is half of the show how was there not room for something new anyway they majored major was um I might be higher on Gladiator 2 than you are Sean maybe we can get to that later um i mean i think you can't you have to acknowledge like anora's making a ton of movie a ton of money and it's limited release conclave is out there making money making memes like it's it's running hard there it's true um but yes i mean barbie and oppenheimer again they set this a standard that's not going to be achieved like you're not going to get two giant billion dollar movies i guess oppenheimer almost made a billion as major Best Picture contenders,

again, for quite a long time, if ever. But, and I think the bigger thing that you had pointed out is that Wicked is hopeful. It has this, like, hopeful message at the end of it. And, like,

there is hope to be found in all of these movies that I've got on, you know, my list of things to consider. But ending on a hopeful note, ending on this idea of, like, we can overcome, like, even Gladiator a hopeful note, ending on this idea of we can overcome, even Gladiator 2, there's a lot of darkness tempering almost all of these. There's

so much sadness to have to get through. So maybe that's just what we were saying about the escapism is how much hope do we need to rally behind and how much can people make themselves put up with the bad feelings you get in watching The Brutalist and it anyway that's what we don't know can i ask you katie a quick our old boss's vanity fair just put out their um their hollywood cover there is there is a moment and you've worked on it and i've like worked on it slightly very tangentially but we've all sort of like been in that in that game for a long time and every year there's someone missing from the cover that come January February we're like why did we not put this person on the cover of the Hollywood issue who is that person do you think because we you

and I I think both agree this is a great lineup yeah it's a great cover they did a great job yeah loved it but so I mean I think part of the logic of printing it out in december this year or november is the december issue is kind of getting a little bit out of the like the oscar hype scene so like last year you know charles milton's on the hollywood cover and then he doesn't get the nomination for may december like it's fine he deserved to be there but you know getting away from that part of it these are all the hopefuls um i mean you can say that mike feist if they're gonna have zendaya and josh o'connor on there why not let mike feist from that part of it. These are all the hopefuls. I mean, you can say that Mike Feist, if they're going to have Zendaya and Josh O'Connor on there,

why not let Mike Feist be part of the crowd? I mean, you can say like Kieran Culkin, I think like may well win an Oscar this year, but like, should he have been on the Hollywood cover? Like, I don't know. Like, Carlos Sofia Gascon, I think is the actual like breakout of Amelia Perez. We'll talk about her in a moment.

But Zoe Sedania is on there too. So I don't know. Maybe I feel like they got it right, Joanna. Who did, who do, who am I missing? I don't know. I don't, I don't have a good answer. I just always love that moment or, or like there's always someone on there that we're like, Ooh, we really thought you were going to go and you didn't, you know? So just something to think about, but it's a great, I mean like it's great cover and it includes people like Shudy Gatwa or whatever that it's just sort of like there and exciting but not really

necessarily in the Oscar conversation. Maybe Mikey Madison is the answer like and I would like I wouldn't it would surprise me if they had tried to get her or if I had not been

part of the conversation again I don't work there anymore so I don't have insight into that but she's kind of a big young breakout of the moment who is or notably absent or to

put Demi back on the cover when she like did such famous Vanity Fair covers you know what I mean so like well that's one of the people I mean I don't have a notably absent. Or to put Demi back on the cover when she like did such famous Vanity Fair covers. You know what I mean? So like... That's a good thing. That's one of the...

I mean, I don't have an instant recall on who has appeared on these covers in the past, but three people who crossed my mind were Margaret Qualley, Paul Meskel, and Mikey Madison. Those feel like three signature figures of the year in movies thus far.

And they're not there. And, you know, there's always like booking concern too. And if Paul Meskel had been on in the past, I wouldn't be surprised at all. But I don't know. It's kind of a weird collection this year. It's like Nicole Kidman is playing a part, but Harris Dickinson is not there. That seems odd given what Baby Girl is and kind of what's kind of come out of that. Whereas that movie feels like a continuation of what Nicole Kidman has been doing,

but maybe like a step up for Harris Dickinson in some ways. Nevertheless. You need to have very famous people on the front panel. That's always the part of the math of making those. And, you know, our- You're like Glenn. Glenn in the A position is a wow moment.

That's like a Tom Hanks, Julia Roberts position. And there's Glenn Powell. So we are so happy for Glenn here at the big picture. We have, we always support him. Sorry to derail your pod to talk about any fair covers. No, it's relevant because this kind of visibility, it plays into what's going to happen here. You know, up until I saw Wicked, my sense of things was that Enora and the Brutalist and Emilio Perez, which we'll talk about shortly, were the three frontrunners. Now, Katie, you pointed out that Conclave 1

has been doing great business, which is just very cool to see because it's almost exactly what I cry about on the show. And I'm like, we need more of this. We need more of this upper-middle-brow mystery movie set in an interesting world with high-class actors. I fucking love that stuff. Same reason I love Journal No. 2.

I'm just like, man, more of this, more of the middle. But it is middle, and historically, the Oscars are often rewarding the middle, so you could really see a case for a movie like Conclave, and it obviously has this political affectation. It's consistently pointing to its closeness

to the American political system. So I could see that. So that's four, and then if you add Wicked, that's five. I'm not sure if I'm ready to add Wicked yet, to be honest with you, in terms of the front-runner conversation.

I don't know. Not at all? Well, I feel like a lot of the fervor that you're talking about with the difficulty of getting into screenings is like, there is a rabid fan base

around this kind of a movie, but there are rabid fan bases around Deadpool and Wolverine as well, and that film will not be competing. Like, I'm not totally sure that indicates that it is a best picture winner. Now, I could be totally wrong. I don't know. No, it definitely doesn't.

Like, attendance doesn't correlate to, but it helps. It's why Top Gun, you were able to talk about Top Gun Maverick as being in the race because we're like, it's good for business and we want to reward things that are good for business. So if Wicked is not just like, you know, people wanting to do advanced screenings, but pre-sales on tickets have been bonkers bananas. So, you know, it's like, it's going to make a ton of money. Maybe not Deadpool and Wolverine money, maybe nothing can, but it's going to make a ton of money. And I think it's going to get that sort of cinemas back or Hollywood's back sort of narrative that we're constantly cycling back to when we talk about these things yeah something

that like assuages the fears of Hollywood about itself that like can be like oh well we can nominate this because it's making us feel good like Barbie and Oppenheimer did that Top Gun Maverick and Avatar the Way of Water did that I think Conclave can do that for exactly the reason you were just saying Sean that it feels like it's the kind of movie that like doesn't get made at all anymore. And Nora, to some extent also, even though it's really not traditional in that way. I'm curious if The Brutalist fits into that because it's such a like this young guy. I think of Brady Corbin as being this young filmmaker, even though he's very close to my age because we're all very youthful on this podcast. And we look good too.

Exactly. You know, just someone like following their passions like uh you know like a exciting new voice so there's there's a lot of narratives you can follow in that one for it and i wonder if if we can make a lot of money it can do that if gladiator 2 can the same way but you kind of have to like to fit into some spot to make hollywood be like okay we haven't gone all wrong because conclave exists well i don't know if this is the gladiator 2 marketing team that has like put this narrative out there but all the like tweets and blue skies and whatever i've seen comparing the first gladiator's rotten tomato score to gladiator 2's rotten tomato score and that they're comparable right and they're both in the 70s and

so a lot of people are just sort of like okay you know the classic what are the critics know sort of thing but just basically this idea of like don't count it out just because it's got 70 something and rotten tomatoes if that is from the gladiator two team bravo well done but like uh sean you and i both were bullish on gladiator two and then i talked to you when you had seen it and i got kind of deflated. I see it next week. But like, if it makes a ton of money, if it does, I think, you know, it could be in the conversation. And I don't think you have to have made, obviously, a ton of money. We're going to talk about, you know, you talk about Nora doing relatively well at the box office, but that's like quite relative. But like, but it has been interesting to me to hear this conversation, ongoing conversation we've been having about the Oscar telecast where we're like, they have to put in movie people, people have actually seen or have actual movie stars there.

Also, no one's going to watch the telecast, something that we are all, we go, all three of us go back and forth on this. I've heard all of us talk about this where we're like, they need to pander to people. So more people tune in and they go, well, fine, nevermind. Just make it super niche and just for the hardcore movie fans that's fine who cares um but i the the not to like hammer on poor ariana grande because i actually do think she should probably get nominated but i will be distressed if she wins before some of the other actresses who are in contention but like um i've been hearing the like golden globes-esque you know narrative of like we need to have Ariana Grande there so that people will come.

And that's something we're used to hearing. We need to nominate Angelina Jolie for the tour so that she will come to our awards show. And I was like, why are we Golden Globes-ing the Oscars? So, I don't know. That's where I am. I guess I am interested to see if the Globes are more impactful. People have already been indicating that it's probably BAFTA that will be the most predictive this year, in part because of a number of the contenders and where

they fit. The Gladiator 2 thing, I don't want to say too much about the movie. We'll be talking about it at the end of next week. And I said when I did the power rankings a month ago, just having seen it, it's just deeply iterative of the original on purpose with a less good script. And even though their Rotten Tomatoes scores may ultimately seem somewhat similar, I think with the exception of the Denzel Washington character, there's not like a, it doesn't feel that different to me from the first film. So if just being reminded of the original is enough to muscle its way into the race, I guess that's something. But I can't say it lived up to where I wanted it to be. I know.

I know. I had a great time with Gladiator 2. I left on a real high out of that movie, including about Denzel Washington, who I do think is really in that supporting actor mix. i agree count him out at all i mean the theory i had thrown out and we're not talking about best director today is like ridley scott still has no oscar and like if you feel like you know if you look at sean baker or brady corbett or jacques godiard you're like none of them are really clamoring for an oscar like ridley scott's right there um but i think gladiator 2 does need a bigger head of steam

behind it before we can start really talking about stuff like that. I agree. I would have been much more comfortable. I was very comfortable predicting him in Best Director two months ago before I saw it for that exact reason, Katie,

which is it feels like an oddly, I don't want to say weightless because that's not, I don't mean that the films are weightless, but I don't know if the Sean Baker or Jacques Audiard narrative are like, these guys are overdue. It's time for them to compete. It doesn't really feel like that's quite in place.

I look back at the rankings that I did on October 21st, and I don't know what the hell I was thinking. I was in a mono studio alone by myself. Joanna and I were both marveling at how good you are at monologuing into a microphone. We were listening to it this morning. We were just like, wow, Sean's really good at this. Okay, that's nice. Probably some combination of paranoia and narcissism colliding to make that possibly successful. But I think actually, even if I sounded cogent, I don't think I did a very good job of outlining where the race stands. And I think there's a little bit of my personal taste has invaded because seeing a movie like Anora, you know, I've been a huge Sean Baker fan for a very long time. Seeing a movie like the brutalist, which

is kind of like vacuum sealed in a lab for my interests. You know, it's just so close to the kind of thing that really moves me historically at the movies, those two movies being so high up. I'm like, yeah, Nickel boys should be getting in this audacious, unusual re-imagining a first person point of view storytelling from a complex novel feels like something that matters but then i look at it i'm like i don't know it's gonna take a lot for a movie like that to get over the line and then it's september 5th too simple so i'm i'm really kind of i'm unsorted on where i think i stand i'll just for the sake of the listenership i'll say here's where i was one month ago and then we can talk about what we think is actually in right now. So it was Nickel Boys,

September 5, The Piano Lesson, Gladiator 2, A Real Pain, Dune Part 2, Conclave, The Brutalist, Emilia Perez, and Enora. And I don't feel great about anything other than the top four there right now. So what do you guys think? Well, I was thinking, as you know, it feels unsettled. I agree that this feels more unsettled than usual because we don't have anything coming in as a real frontrunner. But like, this is always the vibes part of Oscar season. There have been, there's been the Gotham nominations, which gives us some information, but not that much. In December, we get Golden Globe nominations. We get SAG, Critics' Choice starts happening.

Like, we get some better sense of what people are actually choosing. But when we sit there and we're like, well, I think older Academy voters will like Amelia Perez. That's based on, like, maybe you were at a regional festival screening. Like, there's not a lot of information to go on for any of this stuff. So I think it's only sensible to have this, like, kind of formless sense of, like, 20-ish titles that you think are in the mix, but, like, no idea how to sort them because we haven't been told, we haven't been giving any data to work off. Do you have a hobby horse right now, Katie? One that you're like, I feel like this is going in and people aren't talking about it as much. Like I know you talked about Sing Sing on your show a couple of times and I left it out

last time and that was probably easily the biggest blowback I got was like, where the fuck is Sing Sing, dude? Yeah, that's the one I was going to bring up, like looking at my list and listening to yours. I was going to throw out Sing Sing, so we can talk about that too. But also Blitz is becoming a big hobby horse of mine. I mean, you just talked about how BAFTAs might wind up being predictive. Like if you look at the reviews of Blitz from the UK, they are much more effusive than the ones in the US. I really loved it. I saw it.

I had like left my children and come to New York to see a screening of Blitz. And I was like, this mother's been separated from her child. And, you know, I was in the right spot for that. But I think in this post-elections period, like a story about people enduring really tough stuff and coming together and specifically this multi-racial, multi-ethnic vision of London

that has so rarely been on screen, like that has real power. It's an Apple movie. I don't even know what the box office is or if it's being reported like that's always a weird asterisk on these things but i think until proven otherwise i feel like blitz could have some power that's being underest underestimated right now what do you think joanna and what did i screw up what are what are you feeling is in the mix that i didn't identify here's two things number one and i understand why and you and i are going

to talk about it next week i think you have a real pain way too high i think okay as like a film the kieran colkin narrative i understand but like as a film as a best picture film that feels a bit high where you have it on the list not that it's not going to get in but um sing sing for me really is like genuinely and and i'm not just yes anding katie got a text from me uh about this earlier but i was just like i used to do this thing on little gold men where i was just like championing something that i feel like really emotional about um and they katie's reminded me that used to call it like the joanna's heart vote and it's like sing sing for me i i saw that movie at South by,

and then I saw it again, uh, you know, at a local theater where a lot of actually, uh, awards voters go and like the, uh, the, the Academy members that were in the screening that I went to in the Bay area really liked it. And I think not just because, I mean, I think the performances are quite good, all of that sort of stuff, but like that classic Oscar art is important. You know, theater is important. Stories are important. Acting is important is inside the package of a little film that could kind of a story. So I don't know. I really feel I love Sing Sing and I feel like it has a real shot to be in the race.

Yeah, I had some regrets not including it. It's just so tricky because it's been such an odd release strategy. I guess A24 announced that they will be reissuing it in theaters either at the end of this year, the beginning of next year, so more people can see it. You know, we did an episode about it in August and I was like, is this a good idea?

It was one of like nine episodes this year where I'm like, I don't know when people are going to see this. I don't know when to talk about this movie. I don't know when to talk about Enora. It's still only in a thousand theaters as opposed to 3000, even though it's doing pretty good business as you pointed out, Katie. And so that's an unusual situation because in 21 and 22, I felt as though the hangover effect from the pandemic meant that a lot of films went to streaming pretty quickly. I remember the Banshees of Innisharen hitting max really fast. Yeah. And feeling like, wow, that was a great move. Like that really helped the campaign because a lot of people saw that movie, a movie that otherwise would have been a fairly small film, and got excited about it.

And I remember just like looking at the data on who was listening to that episode. I'm sure I've said this before, and I was like, wow, a lot of people listened to the episode about the weird Irish comedy drama from Martin McDonagh. at TIFF in September of 23, played South by in March of 24, opened on like 200 screens in August of 24, getting reissued in December of 24, and then making its way to the race. It's a very unusual kind of trajectory for a Best Picture nominee. So maybe that's kind of what's fogging my brain about that one. That's the closest we have to a CODA in terms of the pattern this year. CODA came out in the summer after its sundance premiere it really made like no splash at all everyone thought it was this nice movie that no one was ever going to talk about again and it resurfaces partly in the power

of a campaign of having all of its cast go to all these events together i feel like i talked about this all the time but there's real power to that and like clarence macklin and colman domingo together is a like a powerful site along with you know real people in the movie who were formerly incarcerated and more or less playing themselves there's so much power in that too and I think A24 like are often smarter than we give them credit for I remember when The Whale was coming out like it was just not on streaming and not on streaming and everyone was wondering like what in the world are we doing but it builds up it doesn't have this moment of peaking to be like oh god I guess no one really wanted to see that movie. It just gets to roll slowly forever. Maybe that's part of the Anora strategy too.

So I feel like Sing Sing, it just can't be written off yet. It's like, oh, that movie didn't connect. Because Joanna, I've been hearing stories like what you said about Academy screenings since the summer. Like it plays so well in a room. And like you get 10 people in one screening

and 10 people in another one. And eventually you've got 4,000 people who've seen your movie, and you've got a campaign there. Okay, so tell me what movies you would knock off that I had on last time. Okay. I'm trying to remember what you had on last time. September 5? September 5 I have questions about also.

Just because I'm not anything against the movie, just because I'm not feeling the swell movie just because i just i'm not feeling like the swell behind it you know that you want at this point so it's not out yet right it's out at the end of november okay i don't know how wide that release is going to be that is the kind of movie to me that if it were made available on streaming fairly quickly i think would benefit it because it is a it's a modest production you know it's a men in rooms talking movie. I know obviously we have one of those in Conclave already this year. And Conclave is very polished compared to September 5, which is very well made, but not as flashy as Conclave at all.

It's definitely not as flashy. I don't know. I think that there was something about, you know, there's obviously the inherent complexity and difficult to discuss nature of the hostage situation in the real events of that film and how it reflects or doesn't reflect on what's going on in the world right now. And I don't know how much any of that will filter into the conversation around the film. I think it just kind of felt a little bit like a movie from the mid-70s that people would be like, that's a great film about people doing the work and the paranoia inherent in the work that we do. And there might be a little bit of self-gratification around anybody in media taking a look at that movie and maybe misreading it about what it actually means. But, like, we're not so far removed from a spotlight Oscar, you know?

Yeah. So, it doesn't seem out of the total realm of possibility. But it's a smaller movie, for sure. It's bigger than Sing Sing, though. And I say this as, like, a tangential member of the media, as, like, a big supporter of the media. What is the national temperature on the media

compared to when Spotlight came out? What do you mean? Things have gone great in the media in the last 10 years. What are you talking about? Are we not stable in our careers forevermore? Are we the baddies?

What are we saying here? Guys, a cabinet position could be ours. So, you know. I'm not a journalist. I'm a content creator. So I don't know about you guys. And the content creator is also having a great reputation these days too. That's a good point.

Well, they are influential. I had the spotlight thought also on September 5th. It's less emotional than spotlight. Like there's this very like straightforward people doing their jobs. Like you kind of get to the end of the movie and, like, the characters are all kind of more or less where they started. Like, I love John Magaro. I think he's great in it. I think Peter Sarsgaard is really great in it. But there's not even, like, the, you know, Mark Ruffalo yelling, they knew all along moment in this. Like, kind of the point of it is that they're keeping their

heads down and, like, getting the job done in these crazy circumstances. And I wonder if that can work against it. Because Sing Sing is a smaller movie, but it's really emotional. And that can really pull people along with these smaller productions. Okay, let's say for the sake of conversation that we're just putting Sing Sing in the nine slot, replacing entirely September 5.

Does that sound right to you guys? It does. Yeah, for now. What are we doing with the piano lesson oh yeah let's talk about the piano lesson well it's clearly going to get at least recognition for daniel deadwiler's performance i think you can make the case that she is in the in the top two or three in that race for supporting actress to me she's a lead but that's neither here nor there i don't really care about category fraud that much um i think at a time when I wasn't sure

how movies like Anora and The Brutalist were going to resonate, I was like, this feels like an elevated version of a conventional movie that often gets awards consideration. Ma Rainey's Black Bottom is an example of a movie like this where I'm like, I think that Piano Listen is superior

to Ma Rainey's Black Bottom in a variety of ways, way more cinematic. But it is something that historically the Academy has clicked with. And so I don't know how radical the Academy is or is not. And so I don't know what to make of that one. I liked it. I liked it out of Telluride. I don't think it's my favorite movie of the year by any means.

But it has a lot of the bones of things that have been nominated in this spot in the past. I talked to Malcolm Washington and Daniel Dudwell a little while ago and revisited the movie. I was really taken with it the second go around, like having seen it in Toronto and was kind of too tired to engage with it properly. Maybe I think Malcolm Washington is really smart and really good filmmaker. And kind of what I was saying before about Brady Corbett, like the idea that like, you know, you get someone new, you get new talent. He's 33 years old. I know. I had him on the show too. We haven't run that interview yet.

And I was like, wow, this guy is incredibly impressive and cool. He's got it. Like it's not, I mean, he obviously, he has strong Hollywood connections because of the family he comes from, but like he has studied, he knows what he's talking about. And I think there's something really exciting about that. I agree, like Ma Rainey, it's better than Ma maurini and also there is a slot in best picture for something like that um but i can't i can't figure out what to kick out for it you know like it's uh it's

impressive but are you gonna get like i think i'm higher on a real pain than joanna like yeah i have it on sitting on the outside of my list for kind of the same reason that i can't you know figure out what to do with it there's a part of me me that wonders, and I'm less inside the game than I used to be, but it feels slightly outside the Oscar race game that like the power of Netflix to get something nominated is not as strong as there was a run where it really was. They had all these resources. They still do have a ton of resources and they could get a ton of stuff nominated. And now it feels like they're being a bit more judicious. And I, and I have been told by people who work at Netflix that they're throwing all

of their stuff behind Amelia Perez. And so I kind of feel like, you know, I mean, yeah, that's, there's a does statement, but I've just been told that also by Netflix.

And so it's like the piano lesson, there are previous years where Netflix could have upwards of like three or four best picture nominations, you know, but like, I don't know if that's still the case. I may be letting that infect some of my thinking too, is that, well, you can sort of count on 1.7 Netflix films making its way into the Best Picture race. I think that The Piano Lesson is the only film that they have in the race this year that is actually competing that originated at Netflix. You know, both Maria and Amelia Perez were pickups out of festivals. And so historically, when they produce a movie too, they like to be behind it more. I think they obviously had fewer films in the pipeline for two reasons, I think. One, obviously the strikes, which made it more

difficult. And two, they've just de-emphasized this frame, this part of their strategy, which was a huge part of their strategy for many years, that endless pursuit for the best picture win. If they get it for Amelia Perez, like I might just quit podcasting. Like I don't, that will be so absurd relative to like what Roma was, you know, anyway. Sure.

Are you just going to rewatch Mank and cry? Well, I can't credibly tell you. I think Mank could have won Best Picture, but it was my Best Picture of that very odd movie year. Okay, so I felt like Nickel Boy, September 5, and The Piano Lesson were the three that I felt the least confident about. It's why they were 10, 9, and 8 last time.

So if we're taking The Piano Lesson off, is that where Wicked Part 1 is going? Can I propose something else to add in without saying what to get rid of? What about the substance? Are we thinking enough about the substance?

Okay, I'm glad you brought this up. Yeah, this is great. Talking about making money, like, it's, like, successful. It's, like, again, by movie standards. Sticky in the culture in a way that, like,

even some other more popular movies haven't been. Yeah. Okay. I would love if that happened. And I'm actually willing to swap out Nickel Boys for The Substance at number 10 for the sake of good list making.

Because I do think that there is a zeitgeisty thing. It's also, it's available to stream on Mubi now, and you can rent it on VOD to my point about Banshee's Venisheron. It's a movie that more people can see, and it has clearly made way more money, I think, than Universal ever thought it could before they got scared and sold it to Mubi because they didn't want to be anywhere close to the content.

I really like that movie quite a bit and I am on a couple of text chains with a couple of Academy voters and they fucking hate it. Hate it. And people also hate this movie. Now, I really like it, but that level of vitriol. Now, I don't think anybody is putting The Substance at number one on their best picture voting ballot.

I doubt it. Yeah. Maybe at four, maybe at seven. But the people who hate it will not. It won't be getting any eight, nine, ten votes. You know what I mean? It'll just not be on their ballot whatsoever. Exactly.

So how much does that factor in? No, and with the likeability factor in terms of getting a Best Picture nomination is pretty well known. So that is a good argument. I mean, again, we're not talking about director, but Coralie Fargeot, like as a director candidate, I think is maybe being more underestimated

than its Best Picture chances, but I do think it's hovering in there. When you say, again, that you're on a text chain with several Academy voters, wonderful flex from you. Did I use the word several? I don't know if I said several. Amelia Perez is also quite divisive. It is.

You know, and we've got it all the way up at number two on your previous list. And so I'm not trying to take it off the list by any means, of course, not at all. But I think it's a little higher than I think the Academy of Voters. Because we always have to consider, of course, the older curmudgeonly Academy voter that we keep in our mind. And then, of course, as Amanda likes to remind us, the international voter is something to keep in mind as well. And Sean, I told you this when I got out of my Amelia Perez screening. The older Academy voters were like, well, that sure was a thing. It seems to baffle them, you know? So, yeah, I don't know.

I believe my self-quote about Amelia Perez after I saw it at Telluride was, well, that is a lot of movie. And I don't know if I said much more about it. We'll get into that very briefly when we get into Amelia Perez. Okay. Let me raise one more. I like the idea of the substance. Great call, Katie. We'll put it in there for the sake of conversation. Sing Sing will be at nine. Is A Complete Unknown on your radar? I have that on my list of, I don't, I haven't seen it. I know a handful of people who have. I'm seeing it next week. Okay. Yeah.

What have you heard from the people who've seen it, Katie? That like, it is okay. But like, I was honestly, one person was just like, you're going to hate it. Which was surprising to me because I felt kind of like generous toward it. But the same person reminded me that Ford versus Ferrari got like 10 Oscar nominations. Like not that long ago. Damn good movie. me that Ford versus Ferrari got like 10 Oscar nominations, like not that long ago. And a complete unknown, like could be just like hitting right down the middle. Like we've been talking

about the middle and how the Oscars like, like to live in the middle and like maybe a complete unknown. It's not going to do Wonka numbers, but it could do like adjusted Wonka numbers. I'm putting in December and like be the moneymaker and the middle thing that we're looking for. Now, you know why I podcasted Katie for so long because she brings up Wonka I was gonna bring up Wonka I was gonna bring up Wonka and say I think we should stop ever underestimating Timothee Chalamet so I man I'm just I know you're complicated I know a complete unknown like is going to mean a lot to you one way or another

right like it's not you're not going to be neutral on this movie no no I'm going to come down I like Mangold

I really do he's been on the show me too I find him to be like a fascinating orator I think when I we spoke for like an hour and I asked three questions

last time he was on the show and he's got really really strong ideas but he does have a kind of traditionalist streak in what he pursues and what he believes is great cinema whether or not that transfers to the most mainstream artists who broke the conception of mainstream in american popular music history like i'm not sure if that's a match so i'm i'm skeptical why do you think so few people have seen it?

I was told that there were reshoots and that it wasn't done. Yeah, I had kind of gotten that sense that they hadn't finished it yet. And also, they're going to wait for the Gladiator 2, Wicked, Moana 2. There's this huge Thanksgiving jam up. And they're going to screen it when they can for... I think there's going to be screenings on the 25th, so pretty soon, for the critics who vote in New York Film Critics Circle and LAFCA so they can get those votes out

and then, you know, bring it out to people. Because you want that like late mover advantage that, you know, we've all said exists since Million Dollar Baby and more often than not, like, it doesn't really pan out that way. But I think everyone, every year, there's something that tries.

Like maybe we could talk about Nosferatu also kind of barely peeking its head out at this point. I would love to do that. we could talk about Nosferatu also kind of barely peeking its head out at this point I would love to do that did my eyebrows go straight up wait Katie when you say Nosferatu who's the person in Nosferatu you most want to champion just like oh uh well I haven't seen Nosferatu yet so I feel I feel like I don't think my answer is Lily Rose Depp, but I got to remember who else is in Nosferatu. So I'm going to Google it real quick. Who are you championing?

It sounds like you have an answer. No, I just think that you, like me, agree that Nicholas Holt. Oh, is it Nicholas Holt? I had to just basically confirm that Nicholas Holt was in this movie before. Yes. I haven't seen Juro No. 2 yet, though. So I feel like my Holt card is going to get revoked until I go see that. So there's three more

movies that have not come up in this conversation that I think we should talk about. There's Nosferatu, there's Juro No. 2, the twin killing from

Nick Holt, and The Room Next Door which is the new Almodovar movie. Have you guys seen The Room Next Door? Yeah, I saw it in Toronto. Okay.

I would say I was lightly dismayed watching that movie as a mega Almodovar fan, like a fanboy. It's a movie that didn't work for me,

but it's another, I think, another fairly divisive film. But that movie and Nosferatu and Jury No. 2 are movies that I had, was maybe not taking

as seriously as I should, and now I feel like maybe I need to throw them in the mix too. So maybe, Joanna, if you're right, that a real pain is not contending in the way that I think it is. I'm more with you on a real pain. Katie disagrees.

Yeah, I think a real pain is pretty strong. I do too. I really like it. I think it should be in there. I just think you have it too high. Maybe you're right. Maybe you're right. Nosferatu, I have seen.

I'm no longer doing the like, I've, you know, Nosferatu, parentheses, Eggers, comma, 2024, closed parentheses, colon, an absolutely beautiful film for all the sickos out there. Like I'm not doing those tweets anymore. I've sworn them off, but... Do you want to try that on Blue Sky?

Maybe. I'm over there. If people want to check that out. Is it a beautiful film for the sickos though? Is this the exclusive we get on Blue Sky? Maybe. I'm over there if people want to check that out. Is it a beautiful film for the sickos, though? Is this the exclusive we get on this podcast? Yeah. I mean, it's Eggers at a mega budget doing the thing that he does. A very, very funny movie, I thought.

And I think it's like sense of humor and sense of doom and the collision of those two things. It's something that really speaks to me, but it does not at all seem... It's another movie that'd be wildly unusual for a movie like this to be nominated for Best Picture. Were you at the event with Eggers and Guillermo del Toro? I was, and it was one of the absolute best post-screening Q&As I've ever seen. Del Toro is obviously a genius when it comes to film history, but the two of them who were doing shorthand on the history of myth, it was fascinating. Maybe,

not all people would agree, but for somebody like me, I was enraptured by their conversation. Yeah, and I think if that's like the conversation that continues around that film,

I'm excited for the Sickos to have their day because they deserve it. Yeah. That is the vibe I've been getting from people who've seen it is like, I love this movie,

but you know, like The Lighthouse was in there for its Oscar contention for, you know, got that cinematography nom. But like, it seems like that may still be the ceiling on what Robert Eggers is turning down. And like, God bless him. We want him to keep doing that and not go for Oscar glory instead. I wouldn't totally write off Lily Rose Depp. She is the standout performer from the movie by far for me.

And she does some things there's been some reporting about kind of like the physical performance that she gives the way that she sort of contorts her body and the fact that no cgi was used to capture all of those things that is very impressive and i think will be a talking point up to the release i'm very curious to see if that movie does good business because if it does i think it's chances in other categories goes up costume design make makeup is it's definitely competing in makeup when you see what the Skarsgård transformation is. Anyway, I don't think

Nosferatu's going to get in. Juror number two, I'm not ready to write off yet. I'm fascinated by it. How much of that is the Justice for Clint

narrative? I think it's all that. Stick it to David Zaslav energy. I think it's entirely that thing. It's a very solid film. It's like a seven out of ten for melav energy I think it's entirely that thing it's a very solid film

it's like a 7 out of 10 for me but I think there is a little bit of a like justice for Clint thing which is ironic just given what how Clint sees the world

and how he fucking hates institutions and the idea of like an institution granting him yet again another award identifying his genius is a bit silly

but you know it's also it's the same thing as conclave it's just it's a it's an old-fashioned down the middle genre movie with very good performances and you know some flaws in the storytelling i think but a great great ending and so i i if you told me that in four months it's a big part of the conversation i wouldn't be shocked would it be like do you imagine it being like a best director best picture thing like is nicholas holt more of a contender

like how across the board a um a rise up do you see on this i don't see nicholas holt competing even though it is a very very good performance i'm sorry joanna um he sean just doesn't properly respect nicholas holden that's okay no i do i do i like him quite a bit um i mean he's just doesn't properly respect Nicholas Holden that's okay no I do I do I like him quite a bit um I mean he's just the king of all cucks and he's having one of the great cuck runs in these two

films when you look at when you see Nosferatu in Jury Number Two you'll know what I mean Sean texted that to me and I was like no way he's gonna say that on the podcast and then

that's why that's why you're one of the greats Sean you don't underestimate him um so can I throw out another you listed three can I there's one more we haven't talked about please yeah we can leave missed I don't underestimate him. Can I throw out another,

you listed three, there's one more we haven't talked about. Please, yeah. We can leave, I don't know how I feel about it, but The Wild Robot is still out there

making money. It is, when I was talking to somebody about, you know, post-election vibes, like what's the movie about people like coming together and like making the world better.

It's about animals, but it is a very great like everyone team up to stand up for your values kind of movie. It's not as successful as inside out 2 nothing is um and inside out 2 is gonna push really hard to be to take that one animated spot like i think everyone's correct that not both can get in i think it's really crowded for the wild robot to make its way in there but like i don't know it still feels like it's gonna it's gonna fight hard for that spot until it runs out of road I think it's

still not since is it Toy Story 3 was the last one to get in to Best Picture yeah yeah there was just a very quick run of Pixar movies and then they said nope we're done with that no thank you never again I

don't I really like the wild robot I don't I don't see it getting over the line I'm not I think I think it's a very good film I think it's a very powerful film if you're a parent um oh yeah but i don't know that this feels like actually all of a sudden it just feels really crowded to me i know we're you know we're like sing sing and a complete unknown and the room next door and blitz and like they

could all get in that seems totally plausible to me that all of those movies could get in so okay well when you did you did your list of 26 in October 21st how many movies are we at now are we at like 16 have we narrowed it down a little bit

okay yeah I think we're at about 16 I know we're going from the bottom-ish but and I I think that's how I usually like to do this but should we should we do some top-down stuff just to make sure we don't run out of

essential spots as always you're way ahead of me on all this, Joanna. Thank you. You're right. Do you guys agree that Enora is still the frontrunner in this race? I do. I kept waiting for something to replace it, and I'm now starting to wonder if it just does a Nomadland

and just stays there. In August, I came out of the screening, and I was like, this movie's going to win, and I still kind of think that. Nomadland is such a baffling year. Well, yeah, that year is an impossible comparison. But like, yeah, Noah Norris, it's so strong. And I talked to Sean Baker yesterday and some of his production team and was like just left even more dazzled.

So presumably anyone who goes to a Q&A with them will do the same thing. I never would have guessed that on all the times that I've spoken to Sean Baker in the past. I'm like, he's emerged as the darling of this award season. It's so strange. That's not a negative read. It's just weird. But like, Neon is good at what they do, right? They are.

They are. Okay, so Enora is one. What is number two? I have Conclave at two for my list love the boldness what do you think joanna i like it did you like i really i really liked conclave you did so over on uh trial by content we're doing uh three weeks of denzel washington and um to your point about like i miss movies like this like watching philadelphia and the pelican brief i was just like crying i'm, why don't we have these movies

that make $200 million anymore? Anyway, so that's, yeah. I was informed by Dave Gonzalez, your co-host, that both Stanley Tucci and John Lithgow were in The Pelican Brief. So it was a pre-conclave conclave right there. Oh, good point. That had not occurred to me.

The only thing that would have made Conclave better is if Denzel showed up. That would have been quite special. You could absolutely fitlave right there. Oh, good point. That had not occurred to me. The only thing that would have made Conclave better is if Denzel showed up. That would have been quite special. You could absolutely fit him in there and give him like... Julia? Is there room for Julia in there? Okay, just wondering.

You don't know what those nuns look like under those habits. She could have been scuttling around serving lunch. There you go. Given the ongoing success and the fact that those movies are out in the world, I like Anora and Conclave at one and two right now. So then,

have you guys seen The Brutalist? You've seen it, Katie. Yeah, yeah. Sean, I think you and I are in the Brutalist hype squad together. We are, okay. A24,

A24, if you're listening, I'm really sorry I missed my first screening. I'm seeing it next week. I'm seeing it next week, A24. I'm so sorry. I'm excited to see it. Is it at number three?

Am I overstating it? I think you guys should put Brutalist at number three. I have it at number three. You guys both really love it. Do it. Not to go back

to the election thing over and over again, but I do think that's a movie that's been rattling around in my head even louder since the election.

I think that image of the upside-down Statue of Liberty on the poster, it is really striking. And I think it's just an incredible work of art. And it's got a lane, right? Like it's not really that much like a Nora or Conclave.

And I think you need that variety in a Best Picture lineup too. Yeah, I tend to agree. I think it's also the movie that, it reminds me a lot of Tar. You know, it's a movie that is built around a mega central performance that is loaded with all of these ideas. And if you take those ideas out, great. And if you don't take them out and you just see it as spectacle, that's also going to work for you. Does the three and a half hour runtime, so much so that they put an intermission in the press screening that I am so sorry I missed. Does that factor into it when you're thinking about

people watching their screener at home? Watching this on a screener sounds like a terrible idea and I don't know how they can't prevent people from doing it but I don't imagine. Remember how Joanna Mycogan used to always say like imagine people in their Bellar mansion with the sun streaming through their giant windows watching these movies

at home. Conclave's going to rip like that and The Brutalist is absolutely not. Yeah. Well, I'm so torn on that. I mean, on the one hand, Oppenheimer was three hours, you know,

and Oppenheimer obviously was a big hit so people just saw it in the theaters, but I wouldn't recommend seeing that movie on a screen or either, but it absolutely dominated

award season from start to finish. So I don't think that that necessarily disqualifies. The intermission, as I understand it, is a part of the film. It is literally baked into the movie and there is a title card that appears that shows you that you are, it's not like you're just at a roadshow and they only share it with you when you're seeing it in this format. I think when you buy the movie on digital or whatever, you're going to just have the, I think you're going to have the intermission. I could be wrong about that.

Let's all go to the lobby and have ourselves a snack. Yeah. Have a countdown clock. It's a beautiful title card at intermission. But historically, in great long, you know,

Hollywood epics, the reason for the intermissions that were baked into those movies was obvious. It was get up, go to the bathroom, go get a snack, go get some more popcorn.

That was very purposeful. It was part of the exhibition of the film. I'm not upset that it exists. I love that when you're watching an old school epic on AMC or TCM or whatever, and then the intermission comes up in the middle, it's incredible. It just surprised me in a press screening, because there was just a note in my press screening, there will be an intermission.

I was like, that I've never experienced. I was so relieved. I had to get up and stretch my legs. But also there's this great moment, and Sean, it might have happened to you, where like I was sitting next to Joe Reed and we turned to each other being like, do you love this?

And we could like check in with each other at intermission. And it was just such a great like, oh my God, you guys, we're doing this together. It's such a great feeling. I had the same thing. I saw it in LA and I was sitting next to Glenn Whipp from the Los Angeles Times

and we both were like, man, I hope this is as good as I hear it is. And it's kind of been like a wonky year and I haven't really been able to kind of get my heart behind too many movies.

And then same thing, Katie, like maybe not quite at the end of the first first half. I was like, hey, we got one. Great. Brutalist at number three. Okay. Br great brutalist at number three okay brutalist at number three number number four uh Joanna what do you what do you think like what if I've

overestimated a real pain have I underestimated anything is there something that should be shooting up closer to the top well the only thing I mean we do have to put Amelia Perez here on here eventually. But like, I'm wondering if Doom Part Two goes at four. Wow. And then Amelia Perez at five. What do you feel like this? What is the late in the day Doom Part Two? All I'm seeing, I'm being constantly invited to screenings with like Denis Villeneuve is going to be there. Like Denis Villeneuve is screening this movie every single night

somewhere the most tireless man in the world in some city in the world Denis Villeneuve is showing Doom Part 2 so like

how effective is this like I'm doing a live event for Maracas with Denis actually which I'm really excited about the sand pod the fight's going to take forever

but it's worth it oh my god the wind sound getting the wind sound out of your pod is gonna be really tough sorry bob apologies bobby uh i that feels a little high for me i think that the movie is beloved by those who who love it but amongst the academy i think there is still a little bit of like that's a movie for the nerds sensation. It's maybe not as...

I thought it was broken through more than Doom Part... Like, Doom Part 1, there was that sort of like, this is for the nerds' lives. And I thought Doom Part 2 had broken through. But maybe that was just because we walked out of our screening and like everyone in our screening, Sean, liked it. And we all looked at each other across the nerd pods and the big pig pods and found common cause together in Doom Part 2. Yeah, I don't, I don't, Katie, I'd be curious to know what you think about this.

Amongst cinephiles, Denis is someone who now everyone is like, he is in, he's entered the pantheon, right? He's somebody who every time he makes a movie now, it will be a kind of event. It's been this slow build through American productions and everyone identifies him as like a big, a grand scale master movie maker. But science fiction has very little footprint in the history of the Academy Awards. It's just not a genre that unless a film is an absolute sensation like Star Wars, that it tends to get into these races.

So even more so than like fantasy, you know, fantasy has a better track record even in science fiction for the most part. So I, while I think it is definitely going to be nominated and is widely admired and was a huge box office hit, I don't see it as like really competing for this best picture win. What do you think, Katie?

Can I, I'm going to make a proposal. I feel like it might perform exactly the way as Avatar, The Way of Water, in that it was a sci-fi sequel and it's like highly respected on every technical level, you know, following up a movie that had been a pretty major Oscar player. And I don't remember how many nominations, I don't think it won anything or maybe it only won visual effects. It gets in and nominated in kind of all the places it needed to be. And then everyone kind of just said, okay, good, you're here. And now we're going to go focus on other stuff.

Like maybe that's a trajectory for Dune Part 2. Tough, tough room. You know how much I love Avatar, Joanna. I consider that a high compliment. Dune Part 1 did win six below the line Oscars. It did. It sure did. So, and it'll be curious.

I'll be curious to see if it can, it can match that. My impression, my instinct would be to put it more around 6 between part 2 will you bargain with me on that I feel good about that I had Amelia Perez here at number 4

which I don't want to go to the mat for but just to that's I think that's fine I do too is it crazy that Wicked part 1

would be at number 5 no I feel no I feel like it might be yeah yeah I mean I like I would say put sing sing there like the way i made my list but that's not based on anything like and i think that in in this moment

like if we're trying to capture not only what we think is going to happen but where the energy is right now it's wicked okay so then we have seven and eight thus far we have knocked off nickel boys september 5 the piano, Gladiator 2. We simply must put A Real Pain at 7. Okay. Yeah. Then it goes down one slot so you can feel like you've had a victory of a kind here. I made a difference.

I made a difference. Yeah. I feel really confident that A Real Pain is getting in for Best Picture. Yeah. Yeah. Just wear, you know. So at number 8. Oh, my God.

We're running out of room just gladiator 2 very quickly katie do you think it's gonna get into this race i had said yes when i made my list but like i feel like with gladiator 2 and dune part 2 there can only be one like maybe that's not right but maybe like wicked gladiator 2 dune 2 i don't know that there's room for all three so if you're gonna going to keep Wicked and Dune 2 on there, then Gladiator's got to go. I think right now, so here's what I know about Gladiator 2. I haven't seen it.

People are mixed excited about it, but not overly excited about it. Chris Ryan and Sean Fantasy, the two people I thought would be most in the tank for Gladiator 2, are not in the tank for Gladiator 2 are not in the tank for Gladiator 2. I think Denzel is the Oscar conversation and Best Picture is not. Yeah. So then is Blitz going in this spot?

I think Blitz deserves a spot in here. That is a huge technical achievement. It's got all that. The below the line support makes a difference in best picture. Those people are all voting for best picture. Like if you get all of the like sound editors in there, they're going to see something in blitz that not necessarily we're going to. And there's the international component.

Like it's not all English people, but like, I feel like there's like a European fan base for that movie. That's maybe harder for us to see. And I really like it. So just personally, I want to push for it to be in there. I think that's insightful.

I was a little disappointed with this, to be honest with you. Another movie that I felt like its script did not quite live up to some of the technical mastery and performance on display. And that was kind of a bummer because I tend to really love the scripts of Steve McQueen films because he has a real acid burn sensibility that I really connect with whether he's making something historical or more genre based I at times I was like is this this is very Spielbergian as well and very kind of you know it was heartful and open and emotional which is not a bad thing per se but it's not quite what I expect from him. Also, I think the first five minutes of that movie, without spoiling it, is a real fake out about what kind of a movie it's going to be. Because it has this kind of like stunning, dramatic sequence of what was happening during the Blitz in London and kind of like what

the on the ground experience of it was like, that the movie mostly doesn't follow. It becomes much more of this sort of like Dickensian story of a child in a level of escape as opposed to this like, literally your city is on fire and here's how it feels. And so maybe I got a little bit pushed off of it. But I think you're right, Katie, that there's something about the international nature of the Academy

and the framework. And also, you know, World War II movies have a long history at the Academy Awards. And so I could see it. I don't know. Joanna, you haven't seen it yet? I haven't. I do think that, like,

Steve McQueen in general, of course, is, like, of interest to the Academy. And then Saoirse. This is my way to online you know opinion but Saoirse on the press

circuit for this film has been strong very strong it feels like the momentum from oh she's definitely

getting in for the outrun has now fully shifted so she's definitely getting in for Blitz and not for the outrun I really liked her in the outrun too

which is another movie with a script I did not like I really liked her in the Outrun too which is another movie with a script I did not like. I'm sorry Katie. No no it's not like it's not the strongest script in the world. I think she's wonderful

in it. I have it in my movie Fantasy League so I have a strong rooting interest in it. Even vested interest in it. It's as if there's real

money involved but there absolutely is not. But yes I think she is really good. She's been good on the Blitz press tour. She and like Elliot Heffernan who's the main kid like they're a good duo doing the press together and um yeah

i was gonna say i feel like it the kensian more than spielbergian is a way to get into blitz without sounding too much like a proper english major but um and i think that works in its benefit but i absolutely see if you have if you're coming in for one steve mcqueen and you get a different one why it would um throw you off when you first watch this movie. Is having not seen it as Empire of the Sun like a good comp to it or not? I've never seen Empire of the Sun. Sorry. Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, in many ways, they're similar. I don't know if Elliot Heffernan has quite what Christian Bale had in that movie. Time will tell. Personally. Highbar, but yeah. yeah yeah I think it's I don't know I need to watch Blitz again is what I'll say

especially before I do an episode about it to just kind of wrap my head around it because it just it wrong footed me it was just not what I expected it to be for a variety of reasons that doesn't mean it's not

accomplished or competing here I've boy I've just I've never been more flummoxed by the Best Picture race than i have this year fun it is so fun john it's so boring when we're like we know who all the nominees are

i know the oppenheimer was a snore that was really quite dull no even though i like that movie so emotionally satisfying he was a great man. He carried us through. He was a great man. Right. Right, right, right. Okay, so then our official rankings in this trio. Wait, was that 10? Are we done? Yeah.

We're done. Oh my God. We kicked out Nickel Boys. Oh man, okay. We kicked out Nickel Boys. We kicked out September 5. We kicked out Piano Lesson. We kicked out Gladiator 2.

I predict Nickel Boys will make a comeback. Yeah. Nickel Boys, and I also think there is a very strong case for a Rommel-Rawson director. And some of that will be relative to whether there's a European representation or whether like a Corley Farge or Audiard gets into that category.

If they do not, there is a place for a... Nickel Boys is the most directed movie of the year. It is very much a vision. And so we'll see on that. But we'll wait because the movie's not even out for another month. And then even then, I think it's going to be

a fairly limited release. The Zone of Interest on Jonathan Glazer comparison on that, I think, holds very strong. So, yes. Precisely. Number 10, The Substance,

which I just love that we're putting it on. I don't know if it's going to last through the season, but I like that we're doing it. Number 9, Sing Sing. Number 8, Blitz. Number 7, A Real Pain.

Congrats, Joanna. Number six, Dune Part Two. Number five, Wicked Part One. Number four, Emilia Perez, which we will speak about momentarily. Number three, The Brutalist. Number two, Conclave. And number one, the frontrunner in the race, Onora. So let's talk about Emilia Perez.

Okay? It's on Netflix. Boy, people seem to not like this movie. Have you been seeing the, the, the letterboxd reviews and the tweets and the cutting out the scenes from the film.

And it's divisive. This is, this is like watching the, the, um, Amelia Perez clips be ridiculed on social media is giving me such strong, a marriage story flashback. Like Netflix,

Netflix is like lives and dies by the, by the memes that come out of their movies. And like, uh, yeah, I liked this movie. I was captivated by this movie. And I, and then there was never a moment where i

could predict what would happen next you know it's got like a telenovela plot um and as a huge musicals fan uh i was really intrigued by it as like a musical property but given that it's based on an opera like it is much more operatic in that we're singing through dialogue rather than like having big musical numbers with a few exceptions, like Zoe Saldana centric exceptions. But yeah, what a movie this is that I saw in the theaters. And I'm glad it exists. I'm really, really glad it exists. That's something i'll say i will say the the clip that i when i first saw the movie i saw this scene of the musical number set in the uh the surgery wing is saying oh god that's gonna go viral on twitter and people are gonna get really mad about it and

that is exactly what has happened like it is very easy to spot when you're watching this movie that out of context this will i mean it reads crazy in context like that specific musical number where you have zozana in a gender reassignment clinic in Switzerland or something is wild when you're watching it it's not like the movie makes any of that seem any less crazy but when you're sitting down for all these big swings and you're watching them on top of each other I do think there is a coherence not the right word because I do think it's all over the place and I think that's part of the appeal of it but there's a vision to it there's a reason that all this is happening it all fits as part of a whole and like I think Zoe Saldana she's the best in show in the movie for me like she's understanding the world that this performance is existing in really well and she it starts off with this another musical all around her kind of set in the streets of Mexico City that's a lot more grounded than that one that was my favorite yeah it's really good and she has the one at the gala later where she's dancing on the tables she's a great dancer she always has been um so yeah it doesn't all the pieces don't necessarily fit perfectly together but i i hate the like experiencing out of context

even if that particular musical number you know and where this movie lands in its politics like is absolutely up for consideration but i think people need to see the whole thing before they can you know decide that this is so offensive to their sensibilities that they don't want to watch it. That's, I'm sorry, it's not like a perfect Compton marriage story,

but it drove me absolutely up the wall when people took that Adam Driver screaming scene out of context. It was like, inside the movie, this works very well. I was devastated by that,

but much more so than anything in Amelia Perez for me, which I, okay, I'll put a little bit of context around the film. So it is written and directed by Jacques Audiard. It is roughly based on an opera. It stars Zoe Saldana, Carlos Sofia Gascon, Selena Gomez, Edgar Ramirez, a handful of others. It won the jury prize at Cannes in May. Audillard, this is his 10th feature. He is an icon in France. He is an occasional interloper with American audiences. A Prophet was nominated for international feature in 2010.

I still think that's his best film. It's a film that is somewhat similar, but also wildly different. I think he tends to shift pretty dramatically in tonality, but the way that he expresses his stories and the way that his characters express is always very big. He is a maximalist filmmaker. You know, Rust in Bone is a very maximal film. The Sisters Brothers is a quiet movie, but it's a very big movie. And I'm always kind of interested in what

he's doing. I think this movie is ultimately a failed experiment. It's cool that he tried it. If he didn't have Zoe Saldana, I don't think the movie would ultimately a failed experiment. It's cool that he tried it. If he didn't have Zoe Saldana, I don't think the movie would have worked at all. She really, every time it's working for me, she's in the frame. Which is not a criticism of Carlos Sofia Gascon, who I think has an incredibly challenging role here, playing both a pre-transition man and also a post-transition woman.

And there has been some debate about rendering those two things and this sort of like going back in time, going forward in time and what the sensitivities are around that. I don't claim to be an expert

on this topic. I don't, if someone is deeply offended by it, I understand. I think she has a big challenge and the film is not well-written enough to kind of pull off

that aspect of the story for me ultimately. And I also thought Selena Gomez was not good. And she obviously is going to draw a lot of attention to this movie,

but she feels way out of her league relative to the other two central performances. So for me, because of that, it's super mixed. All the time,

when you're watching, it takes you out of the movie when the energy is shifting every eight minutes on what kind of a movie it is. And so I struggle with that a bit. I thought Selena Gomez was extremely distracting. And that's the kind of character that I love. And I really wish I could have seen someone who was more up for it.

The salty ex-wife? The hot mess express. She's just like a hot mess express. And I love that kind of character. And I just think Selena Gomez, you know, despite her, obviously, like musical talent was just like not up for this gig. I'm baffled by Edgar Ramirez being here in such a small quantity, like it's such a weird deployment of Edgar Ramirez. And I liked Carla Sofia Gascon, I think a bit better than both of you. But I will say, small quantity like it's such a weird deployment of edgar ramirez and i i liked carla sofia gescon i think a bit better than both of you but i will say i think the height of it was the dinner

where she first reveals herself to zoe and i was like on the edge of my seat i agree that scene is and i was just great great i was just like enthralled by it yeah and i like enthralled by it. Yeah. And I like enthralled by both of them. And I just like, yeah, I just this again, I want this movie to work better than it does. And I am so glad when someone who has big ideas tries something. Yeah. And so then there's going to be like parts of this movie that I'm going to remember forever. And then there's going to be parts of this movie that my brain is just going to let go of. And that's sort of how I feel about it. I do like Carla a good bit, actually. And I interviewed her a while ago and she's such a bubbly, lively person to talk to. So I was just at that point, you know, right after Toronto and Telluride,

I was like, oh, get her in a room with voters and they're going to lose their minds because she's such a fun person to talk to and really different from this very reserved character that she's playing on screen in both iterations. You know, her singing is not, she would say, the first person to say she's not like the strongest singer. So like it is tricky when these songs are not like super traditional, like sung songs. I can't really hum any of them.

And like giving them to various people's voices is more of a challenge. But there's, I agree with you on that scene, Joanna, where, you know, she and Zoe Sedania sit at the dinner table. And the drama of that, the way the lights cut out, the way they start singing, like, that's what you get when this movie is such a weird experiment. So, like, you're going to have to get that and then you're also going to get songs that, like, don't work nearly as well. And that's the buy-in. And so, even though I was buying in with it like you were, whenever anyone says, like, oh my God, I couldn't stand a minute of it, I'm like, okay, I respect that. Like,

I understand where you're coming from. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I don't come out on that, I couldn't stand a minute of it. I'm like, okay, I respect that. Like I understand where you're coming from. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I don't come out on that. I didn't despise the movie or anything like that. I think it is really trying to do something that has essentially never been done in terms of the multi-layering of story types and the shifting of tone so dramatically over and over again. I just think it's a really messy stew.

It's like, you know, putting cinnamon in salsa, you know, it's like these things are not, they don't go together, you know, and they don't. Now I want to try that though. Yeah. So I think I just, I was constantly kind of bumping on the movie where I was like, man, okay, I'm in the middle of a movie where someone's trying to do something weird in a movie. And so I feel it's kind of a difficult thing to talk about because what I don't want to do

is like discourage somebody from trying to expand what the movie form is. You know, like what movie storytelling can be. I think it's also, it's not one or two,

but like three or four super complicated ideas, social ideas that are coursing through the world right now. You know, in particular,

there's something very messy about the back half of the movie where Carlos Sofia Gascon's character has this kind of epic realization when she is handed a missing poster about the destruction that has been wrought upon Mexico by cartels and cartel violence and all the missing children,

the vanished people and women of the country and so she decides to start like an ngo in which she attempts to kind of save or or or do justice by this problem that she is manifestly responsible for as a former but i love i love that, right? That she has this saintly redemption arc, and then when she is challenged inside of her own house by Selena Gomez's character, the nasty crime boss side of her is just right under the surface and comes right back up, you know? And so it's like, it's so messy, but I, like you're watching it and you're like, you're watching it and you're watching, it's very like Eva Peron. Like,

it's very like you're the hypocrisy of it is, is astonishing. And then she has this like other love story and you're sort of like, do you get to have this based on all this other things that you've done? And then when she sort of reveals that this other part of her not gender wise but like personality wise is still like right there under the polished surface i found that really powerful inside the movie that's good yeah there's just like a it felt just felt like a strain in the storytelling that only people who have money

can fix problems which i don't i i kind of like i kind of hate i think is like kind of gross and feels like you know jacques odiard's a very elevated artist you know he's the son of a filmmaker he's a he he lives in a very rarefied status and it feels like a very unexamined idea to me especially because this figure at the end of the film is celebrated as this kind of icon of justice. Literal icon, yeah. Which, it all felt a little bit wrong-headed to me. And so, maybe you're right,

maybe it is more complex and the hypocrisy of it is what we're meant to take away from it, Joanna. I didn't feel it when I was watching it. I just think, I think that, I mean, perhaps Zoe Saldana's characters like belief in Amelia undercuts this point that I'm just about to make but like to me it's just saying all these people that you think are these like virtuous saviors or whatever have this can often do especially

people with massive amounts of wealth how did they get it have this like other side well we would never have that in America though we don't have that with our leaders no we're squeaky clean um how do you a film that is so divisive uh and not just not just divisive but like people really dislike this movie how do you feel like it became a festival jury prize winner and how do you think it was that netflix looked at this and said this is the thing we're gonna put all of our muscle behind? I think it may, I think the Festival Jury Prize thing is not so hard to explain because the Festival Jury is like eight people, you know, like that's enough people like being on its wavelength. And one, you know, all four of the actresses like won Best Actress Prize together.

Like there's, you know, there's something kind of exciting about watching all that happen together. Netflix going all in on it is the part that I'm still kind of wrapping my head around. I mean, they had a kind of small slate going into this year. We were talking about that earlier with the strikes and everything. So it's kind of like they went to Cannes trying to figure out what their thing was going to be. They weren't going to get a Nora. So this kind of felt like the next thing they could do. It's a weird fit for all of the new, you know, the new Netflix that we're

talking about, even compared to some of the previous films they've backed as their big Oscar contenders. So I admire them. I'm glad they're going all for it. Like it's maybe the strangest movie that they've shepherded through the award season, but it is, I feel like if Netflix hadn't gotten behind it, like it could easily be like a bleaker street release that we'd be like, oh yeah, okay. that's an interesting thing that Zoe Sedania did. Moving on, and then never talk about it again. Yeah, I think it's a little bit more calculated than that, to be honest. I mean, in terms of how it won, it's very obvious to me how it won, which is that Audiard is an icon in France.

He's won the Palme d'Or. He's won, I think he's won Best Director at Cannes in the past. He is one of the essential French filmmakers of the last 35 years. So there's that. Plus, you have Selena Gomez, an incredibly famous person who you can use to advertise the film. And this is a global film on a global streaming platform. It is a movie that features a Dominican-Puerto Rican actress,

a Mexican actress, a Spanish actress. You've got Edgar Ramirez in there. You've got a French filmmaker. It's set all across the, you know, it's a continent-hopping story. It appeals to a big, broad audience,

even if some of the social themes are, you know, I guess somewhat divisive in the way that it's told. It's got huge elements of like straight down the middle Sicario-style crime thriller, you know, especially in the final act that, you know, will appeal to a lot of people.

I think the musical stuff is very hit or miss because of the compositions. But as soon as Zoe Saldana started sort of like talk, sing, rapping in that first number walking down the street, I was like, wow, this is captivating. I've never seen her do this before. She's got incredible chops and i've not quite seen a story like this i think your point though katie about how like these are not hummable songs it's really gonna be held against it in that respect especially when you compare it to something like wicked part one which is just nine earworms lodged into your head but i can i can really see the sort of both commercial and awards instincts that the company had coming off of a strike year with a sort of decentralized awards apparatus inside of the company. Whether or not it's actually going to do what it wants to do, I don't know.

I mean, if this has 10 nominations and zero wins, will you be surprised? No. Do you think it doesn't have a strong chance in international future? I have been assuming so but I haven't gone back and looked lately at what else is up to.

It did feel like kind of the heavy hitter there. It definitely is the front runner and I think that all we imagine is like for example not being selected by India very clearly

means that Amelia Perez has a big opportunity. I and I think it's one of those things where like if it gets nominated very clearly means that Amelia Perez has a big opportunity. I And I think it's one of those things where like if it gets nominated for Best Picture which we all think it

will at this point in the year that one of those things where it's like it's nominated in both International Feature and Best Picture that sort of like

makes it feel like you know the top of the top inside of the International Feature category. Yeah. That is what happened with Zone of Interest last year. Yeah. I mean Secret of the top inside of the international feature category. That is what happened with Zone of Interest

last year. I mean, Secret of the Sacred Fig is another Cannes title that Germany has submitted. I haven't seen that one, but I know it's got big critical support.

And then one that I saw at Toronto, I don't know if either of you guys have seen, I'm Still Here, the Walter Siles Brazilian film. I was supposed to see it

yesterday in a lunch around long and I missed it. It's so good. It is a huge hit in Brazil right now. It's one of the biggest films in years. Yeah, I to see it yesterday in a lunch rant long and I missed it. It is a huge hit in Brazil right now. It's like one of the biggest films in years. Yeah, I mean, like it's got you'll probably have time to talk about it later, but when I saw that one, I was like, okay, like if people see that

international feature is such a strange category every single year, the shortlist is going to come in December. We'll see what's in there, but there is competition. It's not Emilia Perez walking away with it, I don't think. Yeah, Sea to the Sacred Fig is neon. I was a little bit more mixed on that as well well but it certainly is a very timely film that you could see um breaking through i guess you're right joe that we should be considering it for for holding space for international i also feel like so i sat down you could win still despite all the skepticism

around emilie perez like she's really horrific in this movie she is and and it's such a good sorry to bring my like house of art credentials in here but it's such a good post Gamora like move for her like she is having such a good I'm putting my Marvel money to use to do exactly what I want to do kind of career right now all due respect um her her post Gamora move was lioness lioness i knew you're gonna say i'm so sorry but lioness but lioness in conjunction with amelia perez is a real strong zoe move so yeah let's let's talk about supporting actress in a little bit more depth here zoe saldaña i think is a front runner if ariana grande uh kicks out selena gomez from her slot supporting actress it will be extremely funny the all the the 2010s pop star wars

coming back to roost that does kind of work sorry Sean I love I love Selena personally she's just

not good in this movie so you know if someone wants to take her spot then sure I think okay here's what I think is in contention for supporting actress right now

we've got Zoe Saldana we mentioned Saoirse Ronan in Blitz we mentioned Daniel Deadweiler in The Piano Lesson we mentioned Ariana Grande we mentioned Selena Gomez I think it's gonna be tough for her to with Zoe Saldana already pretty far ahead there and then there's Isabella Rossellini from Conclave which is a very small part there's Felicity Jones from The Brutalist, which I would argue is the least well-written aspect of that film, but we can talk about that.

And then, what else? Maybe Carrie Coon and his three daughters, Monica Barbaro in A Complete Unknown. It's a handful of others. Anja DeMellis Taylor

in The Nickel Boys. That's true. In terms of singling out an acting contender from that movie, I think she has the best chance. That's a good point.

Are they running Margaret Qualley in lead? They're running her in supporting, at least according to people on Gold Derby, which is usually what it takes in my gospel. I would say. Yeah, that would be extremely well-deserved. Do you see Demi Moore getting into Best Actress? She's not on my little post-it that I wrote for myself,

although that's been a while now. Best Actress is so crazy. It's so competitive. I've been thinking about Carla Sofia Gascon, actually, because she stands to be the first openly trans actor to ever get an acting nomination. And I think her not getting in would be read as this enormous snub, even though I think with what we've talked about, Amelia Perez, it's a challenge for reasons completely outside of representation. Because there's like 10 excellent best actress contenders, and you could just pick and choose at random and have a perfect lineup there. Yeah, I have not really spent enough time thinking about best actress other than I think Mikey Madison is going to win.

But Angelina Jolie and Tilda Swinton and Nicole Kidman are all competing pretty hard in that category. And Cynthia Erivo now of Wicked is the phenomenon that we expect. It could be a little tricky. Marianne Chabaptiste, do not sleep on her. Hard Truths is playing like gangbusters everywhere it goes. Good point. Hmm.

I don't know, guys. I mean, this happens every year, right? At least the last couple of years where Best Actress is just this absolute bloodbath. And Best Actor, you're like, um, who can years where Best Actress is just this absolute bloodbath. And in Best Actor, you're like, um, who can we put in the fist fight? Number five, number five. It's every single year.

I'd like men dominate Hollywood in so many ways. And this is the one place where the actresses pick up. Every single audition for a school play that I ever attended. It's like three guys. Go find someone from the football team who wants to audition. Exactly. I never was one of Three guys. Go find someone from the football team who wants to audition. Exactly. I never was one of those guys.

I think I regret not being one of those guys. That would have been a good lifestyle choice for me. You would have crushed. Yeah. Straight guy who loves theater.

Just get in there. Yeah. Yep. Hmm. Missed opportunity. Another life, Sean. Another life. Yeah.

It's too bad. I was too busy being Timothee Chalamet and Lady Bird reading Howard Zinn on the hood of my car in the parking lot. Calling things tight. Yeah.

I mean, honestly, yes. That's one of the most accurate movies ever made. That movie is chilling how accurate it is. And yet you still have a cell phone. You let the government

track you. I do. I know. They're following me. Well, you know, I just got co-opted by the system. You know, now I'm a part

of the machine. Yep. It all happens to all of us. I'm a power broker power broker now yep what else do you want to say about i mean amelia prez is a movie that like people have been talking about for seven months i watched it again last night and i was like yeah it's all right i know it's weird i think i think people should see it but i think it's a really hard to our earlier conversation about the brutalist a really hard to our earlier conversation about the brutalist, a really hard home watch, you know, you have like, especially,

I mean, especially because it's, you have to watch it with subtitles, you know what I mean? And like, people are used to doing that with a lot of Netflix content, but I still think because it just swings all over the place in tone, it's such an easy thing to just pause and walk away from or something like

that. And so I would argue that, that, that like makes you, you turn away for a second and you're like, wait, what's going on? It kind of like, when I revisit it at home, it kind of drew me back in more than I expected it to.

I just, if anyone's listened this far and hasn't seen it, I think you should see it. That's what I would say. I really think you should see it. And I think you should see it in a theater. But if you want to watch it at home, that works too. But I think you should see it in a theater. But if you want to watch it at home, that works too. But I don't think it's a successful experiment, but it's an experiment worth looking at. I would say my prediction is going to be,

it's going to get more... The people who only watch the clips on Twitter and seen the negative Letterboxd reviews are going to see like, wait, how many Oscar nominations did this get? It's going to feel like a surprise. I just want to predict that that will happen. Like it's going to do well with nominations. Whether it wins anything, I think it's going to stick

around long enough to do that. Yeah, I've seen it compared to Crash a bit on social media, which is a bit rude. But the Academy

has a history of nominating movies that are, that feel like they're not going to age well, you know, that feel like they're almost

fantasies. What could you mean? Like, what in the Green Book are you talking about? Yeah, you know, it's another movie. I don't think this has anything to do with Green Book, but, you know, that's another example of, you know, Bohemian Rhapsody is a film that had many, many Oscar nominations that is, like, actively bad.

Went viral on social media for being poorly made, and yet it worked out anyway. So, yeah. And, like like our list that we made is better than that those movies yes and we made a list of like really good movies that we think are the best picture contenders like you know the best picture 10 over the last 10 years it's just like the batting average has gone up so high like it just gets better so like if you have one in there that's divisive and like maybe only appealing in the broadest way to a smaller group

of voters like that's usually what happens. Well, I think this was a successful experiment. I'm really, I'm happy to have reunited you guys on a podcast talking about awards. That's really great.

Any closing thoughts? I love talking, I love making an Oscar list and then immediately regretting it and feeling like I should have changed it. And for some reason

that brings us joy. Why do we do this to ourselves? I don't know, but it's the only way I know how to do it. I like to think it's something about fixing the pain of my childhood. If only I could just get this right. If only I could just guess these movies correctly.

Everything will fall into place. I'll be able to fill the hole. Wow. I just want to say, and I don't know if this is against company policy, but I'll just say that following Katie Rich's newsletter has been one of the joys of my life since she's been at the Anchler. And it keeps me really well informed. And they're really fun reads. So I suggest that you subscribe to Katie's newsletter.

Now the Spotify HR is going to have to give you a call. I appreciate it. I hope it was worth it. That's not how it works here. Come on, guys. This is a very warm, generous... You're on the episode

for crying out loud. Listen to the Prestige Junkie podcast. Thank you. Read TV's newsletter. Joanna, you're on like 14 pods. What pods are you on

these days? House of R, Trial by Content, Prestige TV, which is not the same as Prestige Junkie. No, I did not steal your title, I promise.

It was there before I got there. We know. We know. That's it? Nothing else? You're not appearing on the Ringer NFL show these days um stay tuned who knows how exciting say uh thank you Katie and Joanna thanks to Jack Sanders thanks to our producer Bobby Wagner for

his work on today's episode I'm sitting right beside him here in the New York office how exciting next week on the show Joanna is coming back we. We're talking about two films. One, the film that she, um, insulted a real pain and no undermined his awards chances, which I think is one of the best movies of the year. Uh, starring Kieran Culkin and Jesse Eisenberg. And we'll also talk about red one,

which I still have not seen, but I'm not hearing great things about it. You and I have a great weekend in front of us. Wow. That film. We'll see you guys then.