The Big Picture - Bill Hader on ‘Barry,’ and Mary Kay Place and Kent Jones on ‘Diane’ | Interview

Episode Date: April 1, 2019

In a rotating-guests episode of 'The Big Picture,' Sean is first joined by Bill Hader to discuss how filmmaking played into the conception of his HBO show ‘Barry’ (2:15). Then, Mary Kay Place and Kent Jones join the show to discuss Jones’s first narrative feature, ‘Diane,’ which stars Place as a mother trying to bond with her drug-addicted son (41:10). Host: Sean Fennessey Guest: Bill Hader, Mary Kay Place, and Kent Jones Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, it's Liz Kelley, and welcome to the Ringer Podcast Network. Our very own Bill Simmons just released his 500th Bill Simmons podcast episode featuring Bill Hader talking about HBO's new season of Barry, SNL stories, and favorite movies. And for the very first time, Bill is joined by a long-awaited special guest. He also just recorded a new Rewatchables episode on Fast Five with Shea Serrano. And after you listen to the Rewatchables, head over to the Wingy Knit podcast, where Vince and Kent interview the Fast Five star himself, Ludacris, where they discuss his career, his new music, and Fast Nine.

You can find these episodes and much more ringer content on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Sean Fennessey, editor-in-chief of The Ringer, and this is a special double-sized episode of The Big Picture. This is a conversation show with filmmakers, and we're talking to a few of them today. The first of which you may have heard of, his name is Bill Hader. He is, of course, the creator, the writer, the producer, and sometime director of a little show called Barry, a show on HBO that we love here at The Ringer. I talked to Bill about making Barry, but more specifically, just about movies, because man,

this guy just knows a lot about film, and he's really fun to talk to. He put me onto a bunch of movies. I think if you're just interested in the wider world of movies and the history of the medium, you'll enjoy this chat. And then right after that, we're going to have another interview with two people I really admire, the actress Mary Kay Place, who you may recall from things like The Big Chill. She was an Emmy winner in the 70s. She's been steadily working as an actress for the last 40 years. And the critic turned filmmaker and documentarian Kent Jones. Kent's first film as a narrative filmmaker is called Diane and Mary Kay Place is the star of that movie. And it's a really beautiful,

intimate, complex portrait of a person nearing the end of their life and how things change around them as they approach that stage. So please stick around after Bill to listen to that one. But before that, let's go right to Bill Hader. Delighted to be joined by actor, writer, director, producer, all kinds of stuff. Bill Hader, what's up, man? Hey, buddy. How are you, man? I'm doing good. So, Bill, this is a show where we talk about movies and you made a TV show, but you are like the all-time movie buff. Yeah. And so, I want to talk about Barry as kind of a filmmaking property.

What do you think? Yeah, it'd be great. No, most people kind of, I have friends who are like, it's kind of just, you know, a four-hour movie that we've broken up into eights. Is that how you conceived it? I mean, well, the way we write it, I had never written in a traditional TV writer's room before. The only one I had really been in outside of Saturday Night Live was South Park. And so I only kind of knew what those guys did. And it was kind of like their shows have three acts. And so you were kind of just, it was never really written in order.

It was kind of like, we know this needs to happen. Then at some point this happens. And then towards the end, maybe this happens. And then you're kind of finding scenes that connect these things. And then it all starts changing. So I kind of did that but with with eight episodes i would just put one two three four one through eight up on the board whiteboard and i would just start plotting and you know season one it was like okay so you know end of episode two it

would be really good if you know they had this thing for ryan madison and barry starting to realize you know um he sees his father speak you know ryan mad this thing for Ryan Madison and Barry starting to realize, you know, um, he sees his father speak, you know, Ryan Madison's father speaking. He realizes, oh gosh, you know,

uh, he, he didn't, he had never seen that side of it before, you know, and then maybe it's good if, you know, Vasha's following them,

that'd be good, you know? And you, and then, uh, he had the, the, you know,

the, the, the, the way you call it, his, um, his friends from, you know, you and then he had the the you know the the the way you call it his um his friends from you know chris and those guys the military guys they should come in around episode four or five so question mark you know war friends here so you're puzzle piecing yeah and you're just kind of laying it out but you laid out as a full thing so you by eight, it's like, I just know eight forever just had

Moss versus Barry at the end. And we had no idea where that took place or what happened, but I felt, and we all kind of felt like she should figure it out. You know, so we knew that was at the end of eight, at the end of the last episode, but we didn't

know how that would happen. Is that more similar to the way you'd write a movie? I mean, I don't know. I mean, everyone has a different way of doing it. Some people, the idea of outlining is foreboding. And then there's people, I think, because a screenplay, unlike a novel, novel can be as long as you want, but a screenplay should be about 120 pages. And when you're structuring a story for film or television, there has to be like a structure to it. Now, that doesn't mean it has to be kind of like what we do or that kind of, that kind of Billy Wilder thing or I, you know, where it was

every there's everything is set up payoff. Everything is super clean and, you know, that, but I love that. It's really hard to pull off. And that's why I think I enjoy that kind of writing. But, you know, I mean, I mean, some of the best movies of Hollywood, especially in the seventies were really meandering and you didn't know where it was going, you know, I mean, some of the best movies of Hollywood, especially in the 70s, were really meandering and you didn't know where it was going. But they have a structure there, you know, like two great Hal Ashby movies, Being There and Last Detail. For all intents and purposes, especially Last Detail is just kind of a road movie. It's like a quest movie quest movie and about these two guys finding their humanity and um and and trying to show this guy a good time before he goes to jail and kind of forgetting

their jobs as and what they've learned as military men and all this and and and and kind of shedding their you know the humanity that they have to repress when they put the uniform on and all that. And it's all very emotional, but when you look at it, it's got a really great structure, you know, has a really tight structure. Now, I don't know if Robert Towne took that book

and, you know, outlined it and figured it out, but it feels that way. And so sometimes the first draft is like an outline. You're kind of like you're writing it. I've done it both ways where you write a draft to something with no outline in it. It's got a lot of inspired stuff in it, but it's kind of cranky.

So then you kind of go over it, you show it to a friend, and they go, I'm a little ahead of it there. This would go here. And then you try to, because you want it to a friend and they go i'm a little ahead of it there you know this would go here whatever you know and then you you try to you know because you want it to feel kind of organic but when you're doing a tv show and you got 30 minutes it's kind of hard to do that because you have to keep it tight inside that frame you're really tight yeah and i'm also just someone i don't like wasting people's time and so when we got the TV show I actually went back and watched other TV but I would read short stories

was really good I would read like Tobias Wolfe or Flannery O'Connor or any of these people and kind of see just pay attention to the structure you know and not that far off the tone of those writers

either I feel like i'm sure too yeah yeah good man hard to find is like a totally an incredible berry template as far as you get something that's incredibly funny and very disturbing at the same time um but you know trying to understand where the emotion is coming from i think where alec ber Berg and I work so well together is I'm kind of all emotion and he's all logic and my strong suit is his weak suit and my weak suit is his strong suit not that he's not emotional he is he's he's comes up I think with some of our best stuff emotionally um but it's what we lead with you know and I you know the great films the thing in stories always kind of have those two things for me you know um you're always going oh that is emotionally sound i understand why that person's

saying that or i understand why they're taking that action on emotionally and then logically i understand it now that doesn't have to mean objectively logically you know logically Travis Bickle wouldn't shouldn't shoot up all those people

but if you have an ounce of empathy for the character for him that's super logical because he's mad at these guys for having a 12 year old

prostitute and and you know and just to be clear you're defending Travis Bickle

I am fully defending Travis Bickle I am fully defending Travis Bickle on this podcast no he's he's a monster but

but yeah you know it's like I was gonna say you know I read a lot but I watched a lot of old movies

and the old movies I felt like the great old movies had their their their inspiration

was more literature and plays than it was more literature and plays than it was like television and other movies, you know, or whatever life those guys, you know, and girls were leading. So why was that influential or important on the show? Because the emphasis was on story. The emphasis was so incredibly on the story, the good ones. And the storytelling is the storytelling you'd find kind of in a novel or in a play or something where it was just very focused.

And they're churning them out back then. Like they had to make so many movies back then so you can kind of watch them and say oh this you know most of the scenes are driving the plot forward um you know the best kind of you know all those movies you could feel the very clean they're written like a clean pitch if that makes sense yeah do you know what i mean they're kind of um you know i mean it's a wonderful life you know it's like a very complicated kind of story but it's like if you just hear like the very clean pitch of it you're oh my okay i see what that story is and they shot it for that and it wasn't it's you know pre

french new wave pre neorealist all that stuff you don't have to bring 75 years of film history to watch a movie and understand it yeah exactly you kind of can go oh this is i'm just telling you a story as opposed to like kind of fucking with the form which is like what they were doing later and then that kind kind of persists. And then in a weird way, if you watch it, then like in the eighties, it all kind of like regresses to this weird place. You know what I mean?

Yeah. It's all steroids and explosions and explosions. And then nineties and there's an amount of that. And now it's like, I don't know what it is, but, but with Barry, it was just in,

in terms of just trying to get back to that thing. I just want to tell a story and you're using, uh, the cinematography, the, the actors, the, the production design and music,

everything is in service of the story, you know, and not because I, not just about one of those things. It's all of them coming together to try to push this thing up a hill, basically. Were there other movies that you were like, I'm trying to capture this execution or is that just about the story

and the structure of the way you're telling it? Yeah, just a story and structure. I mean, there's a movie that was actually heavily made in the 80s. Predator. Called, what did you say? It wasn't Predator? you say it wasn't Predator no it wasn't Predator

it's a movie called yeah Police Academy 5 Miami that really that's where Barry's all about no there's one

Where's My Friend's House I haven't seen it it's Criterion's gonna put it out I think soon I hope

it's in the can I ever say his name Abbas Kiarostami K kirasami yeah and he made a certified copy of those films yeah but this is a movie uh from the 80s and the story the in a nutshell you you um you open in this classroom and this little boy has forgotten his homework, his notebook. And the teacher says, I'm going to give you another notebook. But if you forget this again, you're going to get kicked out. And they live in a terrible, you know, it's just a society in Iran where it's like this kid gets kicked out of school.

I mean, his life might be over. So he and his friend are talking afterwards and his friend says it's going to be okay and the kid's terribly worried and the kid leaves. And then we just follow that friend home

and that friend realizes that he has the kid's notebook in his bag and he doesn't know where he lives. And he tells his mom, I got to go get that. And she goes,

go do your homework. And it's just, the whole movie is just this journey of this little kid trying to get this notebook back to his friend. And it's just like a perfect movie because you just go out all the, just from a writing standpoint, it's perfect. And it's so simple and it's incredibly moving without being overly sentimental or, or pushing for anything. It's just about common decency and, and courage and what you do for people at this little kid and this kind of society where everyone,

you know, doesn't really care about them and they have their own problems and they're like, get out of my way and everything. But in his world, if he does not get this notebook to this kid's house, this kid's life is over. Do you know what I mean? And so you, as an audience member, you're so invested in him finding this guy's house. And it's just a beautiful movie. It was on Filmstruck, and I watched it like three times.

I was just like, I went home and I went to work and I told Alec Berg about it. I'm like, you gotta watch this because I just feel like a movie like that is what you're constantly striving for when you're writing, you know? So between Flannery O'Connor and Tobias Wolfe and this obscure Stommy movie,

they're all kind of moral dilemma movies too. I feel like Barry's kind of has that going on. Yeah, yeah. I mean, maybe it's something I'm just really attracted to. Also, moral dilemmas just really get the story going, you know, and it's a thing that you could kind of track and keep it, you know, it's a good engine for a story and for a character, you know. Was there anything that you wanted to change

after season one? Because season one obviously has this incredible cliffhanger, explosive moment where we're eager to see immediately what happens, but it's also a chance, it feels like a little bit to reset. Yeah, that was a big question we had was how much do you want to reset

and how much do you want to uh leave it alone you know and i i i do feel like i mean i definitely you know there was a huge discussion i mean our first day back in the writers room was like all right what happened to moss everybody was like i don't know so you don't when you were mapping season one you just didn't know where you wanted to go after now now we had no i just knew alec and I just talked about Ma should find out. She should figure it out. If she's a good cop, she'd figure it out. And there was always that, you know, you're always a little tempted to say, well, maybe she doesn't find out because then we can keep this great actress, Paula Newsome, you know, forever and everything.

And then you're kind of going, again, if you're going for character, she's a good cop. Barry didn't do that great of a job of covering his tracks. He's not that bright. She's going to figure it out, you know. And that was a big deal. We just knew that they had a moment. And then there was a

moment where we go well what's so what really happens you're writing it and you get to that point in the room and you're like all right because remember alec i initially had it at a house initially in season one barry bought a house he bought this giant fuck off because he has a ton of money um with that uh with fuchs and he takes all his money and he buys this like massive house with no furniture in it and fuchs is like what the fuck are you doing and it's just everyone he has a whole class over for a party and they're like what so that party that's at natalie's in episode four for a while that was at barry's house okay and that's why the the army guys came over because barry invited him and then we just decided, this house is just causing a lot of problems because this is where Alec is great.

He's like, wouldn't these people notice it? Wouldn't they, you know, wouldn't he pay for it in cash? You start to go down all the, you kick the tires in that idea and it started to crumble. So then it was like, okay, let's get rid of the house. He doesn't have a house he lives in the hotel with puke still okay what was natalie's party oh that's good so wait where's the end end of eight gonna take place and i remember alec coming into work and he's like i think i got some for eight what if it's it feel it it uh it's it's out in the it's out in the woods someplace we just

go to a totally different location it's like out in the it's. We just go to a totally different location. It's like out in the, it's Arrowhead, like what you see. And he pitched that to me and I'm like, that's great. I go, it's like one of the daydreams. People, we should do it like they, you think it's a daydream. He was like, awesome. So we were stoked on that. And then it became the question of like, well, how do they figure out, how does she figure out it's him?

And we were going around and around. And then it was like this is what i mean like that billy wilder thing of just you kind of you kind of play with what you have it's kind of you know it's like you have only like five gi joes and like two he-man dolls you know and that's it they have to be in the same universe together because that's what you have yeah that's it you just have that and it's like a lot of shows will be like, oh, we're in a problem. Let's buy these mask dolls and bring in these other GI Joes because we have a problem with the story.

And now we have 30 toys that you're dealing with. And it's like, oh, now we have an even bigger problem. Well, now, I don't know what you want to get. These toys and these. So it's like, no, fuck that. We can only play with these six. Yep. Right? You don't want the Barry expanded universe. You don't want what you want to get these toys. And so it's like, no, fuck that. We can only play with these six. Yeah. Right.

You don't want the Barry expanded universe. You don't want the expanded version. So it's only these six to tell the story. And when you do that, you you bang your head against the wall and you get really angry. And then you come up. It was like, oh, my God. He told Kusano in the pilot his audition, quote unquote. We just bring that back.

And everybody was like oh fucking hell yes you know and we were all i remember we all were like so relieved because i'm like oh my god that makes total sense that that's what would happen and that would clue her in to you know but it's something we've seen it's something we know you know so that's and that is just like nothing we planned, nothing we thought of. It was just we wrote ourselves into a corner and it was like, how do you get out? But you have to keep your rules very tight. But that's the show.

For me, doing a television show, that's the way to write it. Now, my favorite movie of last year i loved roma i thought that was great i don't think he wrote roma that way i mean roma feels much more of a kind of a you know it's like a tarkovsky movie or something you know um more lawless in the structure yeah yeah but more just you know just you you lean into movie. It creates a mood and a universe and a sense of place and people that you just let it kind of wash over you. And then, you know, just hang out with these people for two and a half hours, you know. Shoplifters was another one that was like that which i liked um so you know i'm some of this sometimes this happens where people they kind of make a living doing this and they're you know

successful in some way and they think suddenly their view of what works becomes very narrow you know and it's like this is how you make this work and i can say this is what works for barry and this is what works for me doing a television show about a hitman who wants to be an actor is this kind of work this way we make it work and this kind of storytelling but you know it's not that's not how every movie or thing should be written or TV show should be made. But that feels almost counterintuitive for you too, because of your experience on SNL and on stuff like South Park.

And you were talking about how, you know, a lot of older movies are self-referential in a way. And this isn't that self-referential, but like something like SNL by its very nature, it has to be referential. You know, it has to be guarded with all this stuff. So did it feel like an active choice to be referential you know it has to be larded with all this stuff

so did it feel like an active choice to be like I want to do something that is significantly different oh yeah yeah I mean I think it was just following a story

I remember telling Alec I want to play a hitman and Alec went I hate hitmen I hate hitmen in movies it's just lame I think a lot of people had that reaction

like I was surprised and I was like oh he's going to do a hitman thing yeah everyone what no don't do that that's just lame and I think because I of people had that reaction. Like I was surprised when you were, I was like, Oh, he's going to do a hit man thing. Yeah. Everyone. What? No, don't do that.

That's just lame. Um, and I think because I went, no, no, no, because I see the tone of it. It's the way you do it. You know,

I just think that the tone of it has to be right. You know, it's me playing it. And if we play it more in a, the existential crisis of it and you, you make it, you know, we didn't say I want to make it like a movie from the 70s or something. But it was more of those kind of body count type comedy that could have been pretty obvious with this idea. What about the actual directing?

Because you've directed the first three episodes of the first season, but only a couple in this new season and later in the season. What goes into the decision making there? Did you do it in the beginning because you wanted to control the way it sort of looked and was set up? No, actually, we actually made, it was a mistake this season, me doing them later, before we realized them.

What was good about me doing them early, honestly, was just because I'm the, Alec and I are the two, like, co-creators, and it's kind of good for us to do the first ones, so everybody kind of gets the, you know, the, I don't know what it is. It's just kind of the vibe, right? Instead of, I mean, Hiram Uriah is a genius, so you don't tell him to do much, but it is kind of like he's an extension of our, you know, he's, he's making decisions and, and kind of going like, is this right? I mean, is this what you guys are thinking? You know what I mean?

And I think it was just better when it's just out of the gate. It's us doing it. So people go, oh, I see what this is. The DP, the actors, the production designer, costumes, everybody's like, oh, okay. So then when you bring in that new director, which is the toughest job in the industry, I think, because essentially you're being asked as a director in television and some

movies now, I mean, some of these big Marvel movies and stuff like that almost feel like television and the way that they kind of have organized things is like, we already have this kind of universe set and you're come into it. So it's almost like you've been invited to someone's house and you've been asked to throw a party for a bunch of people you don't know, you know, and it's like, and people are going, that's not where the forks are. Well, our guests don't drink that, you know, and you're like, I don't know. I'm trying to figure this out, you know? So it's a very, it's a, it's a tough gig,

you know? So we were very lucky where we had, you know, carrey and and hero on the first season and um minky spiro and uh liza johnson and hero in the second season where they are just these extensions of us but they also added their own thing and brought stuff to it that we never would have thought of you know how do you pick those people i've heard you talk a little bit about hero and obviously he's gone on to a lot of incredible work with this in Atlanta and more stuff in the future, but how do you decide oh, we wanted Liza for episode six or whatever?

You just meet him. I actually didn't see her. I saw a movie she made with Kristen Wiig, Hate Ship, Love Ship, which I liked. But I just met her. So much of it is just like they get it. It's like meeting an actor. They just kind of get it or they don't. And she was like,'t, I just met her. And so much of it is just like they get it. It's like meeting an actor. They just kind of get it or they don't.

And she was like, oh, yeah, just really cinematic. And it doesn't seem like you guys want, like, it's the difference between shooting something and covering it, you know? You want it all shot. It seems like you want it shot. You just don't want to, you don't want to, like, you don't want to hose down, as they say. Just, like, covering everything like that, like television.

It's like, yes, you have to have a plan because we don't have a lot of time. That's the thing I learned just being a movie fan. You go, why can't these TV shows, why does that movie look so much better than this movie? This thing looks so much better than this TV show. Can you explain it? Why? Time. Time and talent.

You know what I mean? It's just the time you have to make it. It's like you have zero time. It's like I worked on It 2 this season, or this season, this year. That says a lot about it. Yeah, I know. That's a Freudian slip.

That's because all I've been doing is talking about Barry's Green Press. This year I worked on it too. And, you know, I would tell the director, Andy Machete, that I was like, you know, if this was Barry, we would have shot this. We would have to have all this done before lunch. And we were shooting it for three days. Do you know what I mean? They had three days to shoot this thing.

And I'm like, yeah, no, we would. No way we would have be in here for a day you know it'd be like we have a scene in a restaurant that we're going to shoot till lunch and then we gotta go to a hotel we gotta shoot one scene in this scene in a hotel and we're gonna go outside the hotel and shoot that x and then we go into the parking lot and shoot that scene and yeah it's, I think we had one day where we had like four company moves, you know, and that takes a lot out of the crew.

I mean, it's just, it's really hard. You have a ton of pages, a ton of stuff to shoot. So that's why television, it's, you shoot, you cover it. It's just long lenses and you get the actors in there and you get them going and then you get out because you don't have the time so to do it and not say bury some sort of masterful thing but you know directing wise but to be able to do it that way where it does feel a little bit more cinematic you just have to really plan it you know and kind of know and and stick to your plan so like six years

ago when i was working at grantland we ran a story about you and i was the writer spent some time with you in a video store and i remember i edited that story and i remember when i was ending and i was like oh bill hayter's gonna be a great director can't wait for his his films but then you're like what the hell was that no that's not true um but but you made a TV show and you're talking about kind of the experience of making a film and the amount of time that you have and the amount of care that you can put into it. Obviously, I think Barry is incredibly well-made and specifically giving him the

constraints. It's exceptional, but are you going to make movies? Oh yeah, no. I mean, I think, well,

right now, I mean, it's just kind of, it's like SNL. It's like, I never planned on being on it. I wasn't one of these guys that we're talking to Andy Sandberg and he was like, Oh, in high school, I knew of, it's like SNL. It's like, I never planned on being on it. I wasn't one of these guys that, I remember talking to Andy Samberg and he was like,

oh, in high school, I knew I wanted to be on SNL. You know, I was like, I had never, I mean, growing up in Oklahoma, it was like, just moving to Los Angeles was like huge. That meant they were going to write an article about you in the paper, you know. How many of those have you had now? Yeah, a couple.

But it was the thing at that moment that presented itself. And I was like, oh, I should really. Megan Mullally saw me in a show and said, and I'm like, I should really pursue. I'd be crazy not to pursue this. And because I pursued that and worked really hard at it um i learned so much there that i'm then was able to bring it in to try and make a movie and that is what i wanted to do was make a movie try to find money and make like a you know low budget movie and um

don't pitch the idea right now no yeah i don. I don't think, but no, it was just talking about that and like, Oh, figuring, you know, writing scripts and talking to producers and figuring out that thing. And then, but because I, you know, I'm an actor, um, and I was on television, you know, they, when I moved, I got off Saturday Night Live, you moved to back to LA. It was like, you should go meet with HBO, meet with Showtime. And I met with HBO and they were like, we loved Skeleton Twins, this movie you were in. We would love to see something like that. Do you have any ideas? And I said, no, not really.

And they go, well, you should get, what have you got with Alec Berg and you guys, he does Silicon Valley for us and I think you guys would be great. And we hatched this idea, you know. And so I think it's bringing that wanting to make a movie to a television show.

You know, I just had dinner with Rian Johnson. And he was like, Barry was my favorite movie last year. Very sweet. But he was like, that was like my favorite movie of last year. Because it is basically a movie. I mean, it's taking, I had to learn about television writing from Alec and Liz Sarnoff, one of our other writers who writes on Deadwood and Lost. She's phenomenal, but she was like, yeah, you know, the actual episodes have to have a beginning, middle and end. Not just, you know, I would want to write an episode that was all just set up for something

that happened five episodes later. And it's like, no, no, no, you can't do that, dude. You know, so I was figuring that out. I was like, okay, so this. Could you do that on a different show on a different network? I wonder though now, like if it was a Netflix show or whatever, where people are just like consuming it all at once. Yeah, maybe, yeah.

I mean, I don't, I like that our show isn't all consumed at once. I like that. It makes the conversation longer, you know, and it's fun. I mean, last season was fun after episode six aired and people were calling me or coming out to me to go when,

when it ends with the guys getting shot up in the car and it cuts to black. Everyone was going, what the fuck, you know, what happens, you know? And, and there was, car and it cuts to black everyone was going what the fuck you know what happens you know and and they were they're so used to being able to binge that they were mad that they couldn't binge yeah and it was like a scorsese moan it was like electrifying scary you know and i was like

yeah we have to no man you're just gonna have to wait that was what i loved about sopranos and breaking bad and i mean I don't watch a lot of television I watch mostly movies or the only TV show I really watch is Atlanta which is probably why I work with Hero and Kyle Ryder who's our editor edits that and it's kind of Tao

writes on that he writes on our show so clearly I'm a big fan of Atlanta but and I think because I had that sensibility too, it's just a similar kind of when I watched that first episode, even the cold open of the first episode of Atlanta, I was like, oh, I love this. This is so my, this is what I would like to do.

Similarly cinematic too. Very cinematic. And just there, I mean, even more so than our show, Atlanta, you just feel like they're, they're writing things that they want to see. And if people get it great, if they don't, I don't,

you know, I mean, that Teddy Perkins episode was like a fever dream and it was like, yeah, no, this is just what we want to see. And I, I thought it was like one of the best episodes of television I'd ever seen.

I mean, I texted hero. I was like one of the best episodes of television I'd ever seen. I mean, I texted Hero. I was like, dude, that was amazing. I was kind of speechless afterwards. You know, I don't watch a lot of television because I think it's like this feeling of you have to be part of a conversation type thing. And I'd rather just kind of watch whatever I'm into at that moment and not have this pressure of like we'll have to be watching this I'm so jealous of you because I have to be like and then people go oh so if that's the case then would if you hadn't made Barry would you be watching Barry

and I'm like probably not but I I get I get why when people go dude I haven't seen Barry yet I'm like oh I don't like no worries you know what like, oh, I don't like, no worries. You know what I mean? I'm not one of like, how can you not have seen my show? It's like, dude, there's like 4 billion TV shows on right now that the internet's telling you you have to watch. Some of that is our fault. I'm sorry about that. No, no. But it's true, though.

But you just want to like, you know, I don't know. I watched a woman in the dunes, a Japanese film, which I hadn't seen in a while. And I got the Blu-ray of that. And I watched that Woman in the Dunes, a Japanese film, which I hadn't seen in a while. And I got the Blu-ray of that. And I watched that last night. It was great. You're on your own frequency. I really admire it.

No, I like watching that. And then there's something about watching that and then checking in on the Freeway series, the Doctors and the Angels, and then going back to the super disturbing Japanese movie. Only a couple more for you. I was really struck when I saw you on SNL this month. I was like, holy shit, Bill is so good at this show.

Oh, thanks. Do you miss doing that at all? Because you really just like slipped right back in. And I was like, oh, yeah, he's on the show. Oh, thanks. Yeah, I miss being there, the people there. And it was nice to come on and not have the whole show on your shoulders. If I ever got a chance to host again, I would definitely try to relax a little bit more and try to have fun.

I think I get very kind of revved up and I go back. And it's like going home for all the awesome and all the bad reasons. You know, it's like when you go home, those, you know, it's so good seeing people you haven't seen in a while. And you love all those people there, which I do. I love all the people at SNL who work there. But it's like family. But then it's also family. The other part where those old insecurities creep back and those old anxieties really creep back. Like the minute I exit the eighth floor and you walk out into the eighth floor, just the smell of it hitting me. I'm like, I'm going to fail.

And so it's always this kind of pushing through that, you know? And I think last time I hosted, Lauren came down to my dressing room and was like, you need to relax, dude. Yeah, he was like, will you fucking just have fun out there? And I was like, yes, sir. So I tried to, you know, do the best I could. Okay, hopefully you go back and you're more calm. You know, I end every episode of the show

by asking filmmakers what's the last great thing that they've seen. You've already given me a couple of answers. Oh, I can give you more. You want to drop some more in there? I just saw Bull Durham

for the first time, which I've never seen. The first time? I've never seen Bull Durham and Kyle Ryder again. You've never seen Bull Durham? You dropped an Abbas Kirstami movie,

Woman in the Dunes. I'm trying to think of what else you talked about in this episode and you had not seen Bull Durham. I had not seen Bull Durham and I thought it was good. And I hadn't seen it.

I thought it was pretty good. What'd you like about it? I just liked that it wasn't like the sport wasn't seen it I thought it was pretty good what'd you like about it I just liked that it wasn't like the sport wasn't it wasn't like a necessarily like a full on baseball movie

it was kind of like it's like the way you can't say Raging Bull is like a boxing movie it's more about what what what means to be a winner

you know or something you know it said how uh this knucklehead Tim Robbins character has this natural

talent, but he's a complete moron. You have these other two people who are very soulful and intellectual and have a lot to give the world, but the world doesn't want them. I found that very... I like Kevin Costner. I was the best I've ever seen him

in a movie. He's pretty great in that movie. And, and, uh, but yeah, you know, it's like the, I liked that at the end,

like he and Susan, Susan Sarandi get to get together and then he just leaves. Cause he's still on this quest, you know? And it's like, he's just a loser. You're like, dude,

it's not going to happen. There's some synchronicity with Barry. I think. Yeah. Yeah. But I, I, I, I dug it. I saw this

movie with Sonny Chiba called Wolf Guy, which was kind of crazy and not great. It's the guy who made these delinquent girl movies in Japan. It's okay. Doberman Cop is the other Sonny Chiba movie

I have on the docket that I need to watch. And then I watched- Are you a completist? A Chiba completist? No, I just like watching those movies. I just kind of go like, what? I need to see most of these. I want to see these Sonny Chiba movies.

I want to see the, yeah. I mean, I kind of just get excited by a filmmaker. And then a couple months ago, it was like Fritz Lang. I just got really excited about watching like more now and laying and then watching his studio movies. And, and I just kind of,

it's like, you get on like a little rip, you know, run of them and you just want to watch them all. And, um, are the ones that you can find. What's the one Fritz Lang movie that you would recommend to people?

Hangman Also Die, which is great, which is written by Brecht. That's one I hadn't heard of, and I really liked it. I haven't seen it. What's it about? It's kind of a fictional telling of a Nazi assassination

where it's not... I'm not going gonna remember names of the actual people in history but this nazi uh high command nazi guy got gets killed and then i'm sounding like my dad right now this nazi guy gets killed right and that's a nice thing my love for movies also say it wasn't like a like just kind of like a professor is like this is how my dad and his friends talked about movies. And they were all massively massive fans of it, but they would watch like what would be technically an art house movie,

but kind of like talk about it in a way of, of not in a pretentious way, but they were like moved by it. You know, I remember my dad saw kiss of the spider woman and he was like a truck driver. And he's like, that's great though. These two guys, I mean, i mean they you know they fall in love and they're

trying to figure out their shit and the other guy fucks the other guy over and you know he's just he's so into it you know but yeah hangman also must die or hangman also die it's a fritz lang movie this nazi general is killed and by uh uh, this surgeon and you know, it's him and he takes refuge in this, these people's house. Uh, and the father of the house is Walter Brennan. And,

um, these, uh, so basically Nazis say you need to, we know someone is housing this criminal. You need to turn them over and tell them we're going to just randomly pick 40 men and we're going to execute them every day until you turn this man over. And that's like, that's what I mean.

It's like, you're just off and running. So you have like your setup and you're like, that's a massive dilemma. And what do these people do? And they're getting pulled out of their homes and this guy's feeling guilt for it. But he, you know, he did a great thing and you know what I mean? And so it's a, and the way he he shoots action is very raw and very rough. There's some great scenes in it that there's just no music. There's nothing.

It's just kind of showing you. You felt with Fritz Lang that he experienced real violence because the violence in his movies is very rough. I mean, think of the big heat when Lee Marvin throws the coffee and the woman's face and burns her face. You're just, I mean, it's just brutal. But you felt like it was a guy who had witnessed real violence before, you know, and so there's some amazing scenes in that movie, and I was really knocked out by it. And I had never heard of it. And that's always the fun thing about being a giant film fan is you come across something and like 10 of them are okay and kind of fine and it was good,

and then you hit something like that or where's my friend's house or something like that that sticks with you and it inspires you to make stuff. People rarely put me on to stuff, but you put me on to a bunch today, Bill. Thanks for doing this. Oh, no worries, man. Thanks again to Bill Hader for chatting.

And now let's go right to my conversation with Mary Kay Place and Kent Jones. Delighted to be joined by Mary Kay Place and Kent Jones. Guys, thank you for coming in. Thank you. Thank you. You've just described yourselves as zen and blabbermouth. I won't say who is who. Maybe you can determine that after you've heard this episode.

But you guys have a beautiful new movie. You know, Kent, I'm a longtime admirer of your writing and the work that you've done with film festivals and in documentary. This is, of course, not a documentary that you've made. It's a narrative feature film. So I was hoping you could just explain where this movie came from and why you've done it and why with Mary Kay. It just came from a desire to make a movie that was set in a world that I knew when I was growing up, which is the world of my New England aunts and uncles, great aunts and uncles, truly, because I'm an only child and my parents were both only children, but my grandmother was the oldest of 10 and they all grew up, uh, uh, Northern, Northern, Northern New York state. And then, you know,

they all went through the depression and World War II, and some of them had tough lives, but they were all really loving, wonderful, and very tightly knit. It was just the world for me when I was growing up. I had a desire to put it into cinematic form. I just did. It grew over the years years and it was cool living with something over a long period of time. Do you remember when it first occurred to you that you wanted to do a story like this? Yeah, I was like 15 or something like that. There's a notebook

somewhere where there's like, I drew some storyboards or something, you know, that like resembled something like a movie. And Mary Kay, what about you? When did this character come into your life? Kent and I both were on the jury at the Berkshire Film Festival. We're both permanent members. And we got to know each other. And one day Kent said to me, you know, when I saw you in the Francis Coppola movie, The Rainmaker, and playing Dot Black, I thought, that's like my mother and her matriarchal family, that character, and she could play my mother. And he said, I wanted to write a script about her, and I'd like to write one featuring you as my mother. And I went, what? And a few years later, in my inbox was the script, and I absolutely loved it.

Is that common for you to have a part written for you like that? Over in the past, people have said they've written something and they thought I would be right for it. I don't know that they started out thinking that. But those scripts, I never connected to them in the way that I connected this, or I didn't feel it was really right for me. So this is the first time it's happened where I really thought, yes, this is perfect. Kent, were you nervous to say that? Was that a bold gesture to say, I feel like you're the right person to play this very special part to me? No, it wasn't the right person. It was the only person. I mean, I truly could have coped with the idea that you

would not have liked it. And then I could have, I would have had to move on at gas, but it's hard for me to envision. No, I mean, I wrote it for Mary Kay. And why did, why was, did a few years pass before she got a copy of that script? Oh, because I hadn't written it yet. No, I told her what I had in mind, you know, and she was just, we were, we were, there's, there is this film festival. It's a lovely thing in the Berkshires. That's where the film is set, actually.

That's where I grew up. And we're both kind of permanent jury members. That's a very candy move on the part of the festival director. And so at the end of the weekend, I said, there's something out there. So I told Mary Kay, and she was praying that it would be good. Was it always for you to direct? Yeah.

Oh, yeah. I had read a screenplay of his, another one that he'd written, and it was quite good. It was totally outside of the box, like Diane, and an original way of writing a screenplay, but I really liked it. I thought the writing was interesting. And also, he has a different background than a lot of people that had approached me before. And there weren't a lot of people. There were just a few.

What do you mean by that, a different background? I'm curious what your perception of Kent was. A history and being a scholar in a way of a great number of important films and a student of those films and writing about those films. So he had a wide history of film knowledge to draw upon when he came up with this unusual format for Diane, because the screenplay structure is non-traditional to what I've experienced. And was that by design, Kent, that sort of the way that you were building it was to be a little bit left as opposed to going straight down the middle? Yeah. I mean, I believe in plot. Some people claim that they don't, but I don't even believe them.

I just like, you know, I believe in building drama and crafting it, but I also believe that what's dramatic is not necessarily what's time-tested or road-tested or whatever. I believe in dramatizing what, and I'm excited by the idea of dramatizing what's not necessarily deemed dramatizable by everyone. And so I wanted to make a movie what's not necessarily deemed dramatizable by everyone. And so I wanted to make a movie that was about life moving a little faster than the living of it at times.

I wanted to make a movie that deals with time passing and with loss in a way that wasn't incredibly sad or morbid it's just a part of life you know it's what it is uh with carrying a burden and then seeing how and then the strangeness of the burden being lifted from you you know as opposed to the liberation you know i think if you've been carrying a burden for a really long time and then suddenly it's lifted it's not just like oh my god i'm free it's just sort of like oh what do i do now because you're you know that's so all those things were very important to me yeah and there's so much unspoken i feel like in this script mary k i'm curious how it almost feels like you wrote a script and then removed half of the dialogue

because you have to convey so much about what's going on with this character while not actually literalizing it in a lot of ways. So what is that like for you when you're going through a script and trying to identify what a person's essence is if it isn't always in the dialogue? It was really exciting because I had to create a history of this incident that I refer to. And it took a long time. I rewrote it and rewrote it just to know what it was for myself, even though we only refer to it in the movie. And also the way it was written, there's room for subtext.

And then it starts to build as we're making the film, that subtext. It grows every day. And there was mystery. I mean, in the past, I've been literal about stuff and facts. And this left a lot of room for the imagination and things to come up from the unconscious that surprised me. And I didn't create in my intellect. And so it was an adventure and that was exciting. And that doesn't happen often. It did happen in The Rainmaker, which is interesting because of the preparation work that I did. I worked with dreams and images from dreams,

and that sort of is the bridge to the unconscious. But it was really, really exciting. Did you guys find that you were talking a lot about your youth and your family and trying to figure out the character? Or was that just an inspiration for what you were trying to make here? Mary Kay was really interested in it. I mean, you know, and in the area

and in my life to the extent that it had a bearing on, you know, the creative enterprise. Yeah, I mean, we did on on you know the creative enterprise yeah i mean we did talk you know because we were very close and so we got to be we got to talk talking about those things anyway but you didn't use a lot of your personal childhood from it because it was based on your friend the heroin uh character yeah that's another part of it that's that's very that's something that a friend of mine went through

the son character in the film yeah played by Jay Clancy but I did grill him about his family and his cousins and aunts

and all that yeah and then we drove around the Berkshires and saw the house where I grew up and

even though that's not really a part of the movie, we were going to drive out to the center of the state, but we never really did that. To visit cousins, but they weren't available. Yeah, that's right, and there wasn't quite enough time. There was enough of the flavor that we talked about, and then we just created the rest

once we were in the environment where we shot. Yeah. There's this conventional wisdom that it's hard to tell a story about an older character especially an older woman that somehow makes this different. I'm wondering if it was difficult to get this film made and if you guys encountered obstacles

to getting something like this off the ground. Well, I mean, you know. I'm not a bankable star. The minute that the script was written, it wasn't like the phone started ringing. But then on the other hand, you know, it happened. It was the first film that was made. You know, I went to my friend, Caroline caplan uh who used to work at isc she's at cine reach now and she's an amazing producer and a great human being she's the person who put

the whole boyhood thing together for instance you know and so caroline uh brought oran moverman on oran and i already knew each other a little bit and it was a great admirer time out of mind you know and um then orin formed a company with um eddie weissman and julia labadev here in uh la called sight unseen and this was sight unseen's first movie and luca borghese and ben how are the other producers that's agx that caroline also brought on and we were a team. And when A Sight Unseen was formed, that was when we got the go-ahead to make the movie. Then we had to figure out the window.

So the window originally was opening for April, and then Mary Kay had a conflict, and then it was like, oh, we can do it in between Thanksgiving and Christmas. And it was like, not, you know, nobody's going to do that. I mean, that just seems like pure suicide. And then Luca called me and said, well, January 9th sounds workable. And I called Mary Kay and you're like, yeah, that would work.

And I was supposed to do Lady Dynamite for Netflix and we's right. And we snuck it right in there before. Yeah, we did. Because that was a potential conflict. How many days did you guys shoot? 20. Okay, so that's fairly quick. Very quick. 20 shooting days.

And then we had a day after the shooting proper where the cameraman, Wyatt Garfield, and the grip and I rode around and did a lot of the driving shots. Mary Kay, how do you pick parts now? Because you're still a very active actor. You've been acting for a lot of years. Are you choosier now at the stage? Are you trying to work a lot? No, I'm choosy, but I do a lot of different kinds of things. It's all always about the script.

What kind of does this contribute to positive or negative energy in the world? That's a big one. And it depends. If I've done something really deep and hard, then I go for something lighter and more fun. Because, again, it takes its toll on the body and the psyche when you go deep like this. So I like to mix it up. but it's always just the script. And does it move me? Will it be fun?

And what are we saying to the people? If we're saying something meaningful, then yeah, I'm in. Ken, I'm curious. You've had other filmmakers tell you whether what they've done is meaningful over the years. You have relationships with some of these filmmakers. Was this experience what you expected? Did it turn out

when you were on the set the first day? Were you like, this is exactly what I thought it would be? Well, I mean, yes and no. I was prepared, let me put it that way i was prepared not just um to make a movie and tend to a set i was also prepared to say to people okay i'm ignorant of this you have to tell them show me but i'm going to you know what once i learn that i'm going to be able to respond to you uh in more detail every time you know um and i you know because i didn't want to um i didn't want to waste any time pretending that i didn't that i knew what i didn't um and then

you know there were certain filmmakers that i know olivia asias for instance is just like directing is answering questions constantly constantly constantly constantly and you're you know there were certain filmmakers and i know olivia asias for instance is just like directing is answering questions constantly constantly constantly constantly and you're just there and you answer questions and you just respond to everything um it's also just but it's also and this is something that that is shared by everybody that i know who's ever directed a film, which is when you are on the set and you feel intimidated by all the equipment, even in a small film like ours, it's a lot of equipment, it's a lot of people, it's a lot of things happening. There's the time pressure. If you go too late and you don't get what you need, then you're cutting into the next day

and you have to go to the different departments and get their permission to do and you have to do the meal penalties etc so you know um all those things can be really intimidating and guess what who cares because you feel intimidated and you just do it anyway and then after after a while, you're just like, okay, you know, I'm intimidated now. So what? It'll pass away like a cloud, then it'll evaporate. Then it's just kind of not there because you're just doing it. And, um, I think that there was a day when I was on the set and, um, when we were shooting in the hospital, when I was kind of saying to myself, Ooh, I don't know if I'm really, you know, if I'm really up for this. And then I thought to myself, well, it doesn't matter if I feel up for it or not. I'm just going ahead and doing it anyway.

And that was a great moment, I must say. And so, you know, I think, yes, knowing a lot of people and being friends with a lot of filmmakers is definitely a part of it. And then, you know, that preparation, but it's the actual doing of it that becomes the real. I'm struck just talking to you guys, since you are friends, you know, I think there's just an incredible scene in the film in which you're drinking alone in a bar,

Mary Kay, your character. And there's a moment with a song and the music playing and dancing that is like, feels like real catharsis. And since you guys are friends, I wonder what it's like to work on something that is that intimate and intense and having this previous friendship

and then doing something that is professional but also very high tension in a lot of ways. That was an interesting moment because in the script, it's not there. We just had her in the bar and she kind of gets drunker and drunker and makes a spectacle out of herself. And then when we talked, I think, you know, we both thought something has to happen.

I definitely wanted to dance to that Leon Russell song. Well, you wanted to dance. I wanted to dance. And then the Leon Russell song when we were shooting, you brought that up. I asked if we could do the Leon Russell out in the woods because I would go home at night and just to relax and exercise, you know, because I had to work on the stuff for the next day. I would dance in the living room to this playlist that I created. And that was one of the songs that just really got to me. It's a great record.

It's a great record. Yeah. And I knew Leon. And so it was just great to get to actually use that song. But I think our friendship before really helped, but still, I think there was anxiety on everyone's part about what you said, am I really up for this? And I was worried about, do I have the stamina for 20 days being in every single scene and coming home every night and working for the next day but that friendship was I think solid enough even though it was fairly new and we didn't we only saw each other basically at the film

festival jury time but not in LA but I mean it it just it was sturdy enough to withhold the moments of anxiety or doubt or whatever that occurred but but passed you know and we all had our moments of doubt for sure but i think everyone does when you're making a movie? It's a really hard process and it requires a lot of energy and thought. And being in every scene created this flow and this energy that was really helpful in many ways. And so things worked out and they continued to work out. So I think we each got more and more faith in the process as we moved along and then we were in a steady rhythm yeah and it really felt comfortable and and it was fun i mean we here's all this heavy duty stuff but we're laughing and having a great time on the set

and our crew was young in many cases inexperienced and they they worked so hard. And we had this committed company all working really hard together, and it was great. That's what's great about making a movie. Yeah, I wanted to ask you, it's a little bit Pollyanna, but was there something exciting about being in virtually every frame of the movie? You know, that doesn't happen to you much, I imagine, throughout your career for most actors. Yeah, because of the rhythm and the flow and then not having to stop and gear yourself all up again

and work yourself back into a certain place. It just became this continuous rhythm and flow, and that was really exhilarating, actually. Yeah, there's this radio interview with Truffaut that was conducted right before he died, and he really sounds sick. And I listened to it when I was making Hitchcock Truffaut, and it wound up not using it.

It was just like, I can't do this. I think it was actually broadcast. I was just like, man, I don't know. But he's talking about making movies and he says, making a film is like going into a fugue state. You just enter it. And I can't imagine another way of doing it. I, I suppose that there are, you know, situations where people like Wong Kar Wai, you know, shoot and then stop from years and then shoot or stop for months rather, you know, over different periods of time. part of it you're in the middle of a fugue state and you're just going going going and at a certain point exhaustion and refreshment and you know it all becomes one um what was it like coming out of

it because you had not really been in it in this particular way uh well i let's just say that i dreamt that i was on set for weeks after i was on set. I mean, really, truly, I had one dream when I kind of like passed out a little bit and the cameraman and the, um, the grip, Greg and the, uh, AD Cedric all picked me up and put me down and they made sure that I was okay. Um, I don't know, you know, I mean, and it was also right after the shoot it was a very tumultuous moment in my personal life and everything you know and so there were there were a lot of things that were sort of like happening at the same time and i went right into the editing and the editing was uh the editor mike sellman and i had a great time what was the most fun part about making this

for both of you guys the fellowship the, the collection of people working so hard, all for creating this story. That's exhilarating. And just getting to know those people on an intimate basis because we're all crammed together in this tiny little location, tight quarters. And just the fun of the people, the humor, the jokes, the affection you feel working with these people in such an intense way. You guys premiered the film about a year ago. I'm always curious about that interregnum before the public sees something and then you wait for the sort of official release of that. What is that like?

I mean, Mary Kay, I'm sure you've been through this many times now, but just that almost that limbo period that you've been in for a year with the story. It's hard. I mean, I haven't been through it as a lead. And so this had a bigger impact on my psyche in a way because it was something new for me. And, and the,

until we got the distributor, you worry about it like a child. Yeah. The distribution happened pretty quickly after the film festival, but then when to release it. So, you know, the year was already packed by the time the deal was really, really done, done.

And so it's like, okay, we're going to do 2019. Then when? And I think that it's one thing to have a film in the film festival. And, you know, the way that we were, the reviews out of the film festival were great and so were the awards that we won at the film festival. But then it's different to have the film coming out where you know that it's going to be available in theaters and streaming and it's not just the film festival.

It's a different kind of feeling and it's nice. We went to various film festivals across the United States, to Locarno in Switzerland. And it was really interesting, and you went to some other ones as well, and you're international. And it's really interesting to see other cultures relate to this film. I was kind of blown away by that. Yeah, I mean mean it's a different relationship every time uh what was a particularly unique perspective on it any any nation that that took it in in a way that surprised you when my wife and i were in marrakesh for the for the film

festival there uh and i mean there was one response to it that was very funny there was a guy who was like the film is so bleak and wintry you know he was speaking in French he used the word hivernal I thought well it's very funny you know but it's like I guess I'll disagree with you about the bleak part you know when you're living

under constant sunlight though and you're seeing a movie I mean constant sunlight it's just it's amazing that's foreign terrain when you're looking at a movie where it's winter but i think that also um i was really taken aback by the number of people who just you know came up to me and my wife who's also the costume designer of the film um and really responded at a very very emotional level to it. And so I don't know whether it was, you know,

it's just you're in the middle of Northern Africa in a very, very different world. So it's kind of another, the responses in Locarno were extremely, were different from the ones here. But the response in Locarno were extremely, were different from the ones here. But the response in Northern Africa, I don't know, it was very total, I guess, for the people who really loved it.

And there were a lot of them. They were just kind of like coming up to us on the street a lot. And that was great. Ken, do you think this changes your, the trajectory of your professional life in any way? Yeah. I mean, I had always been aimed at making films.

Always. And it changes my perspective. I've never been fond of turning films down. I'm even less fond of it now. But it also gives me a different perspective on uh any movie that i watch new empathy or to a degree yeah i think so i mean you know an empathy and also just like i mean i've always been interested in the nuts and bolts of movie making but until you've made one you can't really know what all the nuts and bolts of them are. And so, you know, yes, empathy and heightened attention, I suppose,

to the particulars of how it's made in relation to what the perceived intention is. And Mary Kay, you're a face on the poster movie star now, so what does that mean for you? Is that going to change anything for you radically? I doubt that it's going to change anything radically, but I'm so- It's not going to go to your head. How soon before your Marvel movie, yeah.

Yeah. But I really have learned so much from making this movie and continue to learn things. It started me on a particular journey and I'm still on it. So that's the great benefit of having gone through this process. Guys, we end every episode of this show by asking filmmakers what's the last great thing that they have seen. So what is the last great thing that you both have seen?

Film festival judges and cineasts. You're well qualified for this question. I know. And now I'm sitting here going, are you talking film, television? You can say whatever you like. We usually go with movies, but I'm open-minded. There's a lot of things I think are good. I thought Bodyguard was good on Netflix.

I thought for something totally lighter but went surprisingly deep, Sex Education was interesting. I saw Capernaum at one point and I thought that was interesting and shoplifters. You don't like those? Yeah, I like them. Ken, what about you?

You know how to recommend films. You've recommended films before. I mean, you know, I saw Elaine May on Broadway and Kenny Lonergan's play, and that was an epical experience. I saw that as well. Yeah, that was something.

Pretty mind-blowing. Paul Dano and Ethan Hawke and True West was pretty amazing as well. So it was, I think in December, we went to see the Prisoner of Peter Brooks play. That was a mind-blowing experience, but every Peter Brook production I've ever seen is mind-blowing. I must say, though, that with movies, I recently went back and looked at some of William Wyler's movies again, and he just grows more and more for me as a filmmaker. I looked at The Letter and Jezebel, which I hadn't seen in quite a while.

But I looked at The Best Years of Our Lives again. It's a film that I know by heart. I've seen it many times, but I found it even more shattering than I ever have. I relate to that film very personally. My father went through the experience of coming home. It's a film that just feels like there are sequences in it that are about as powerful as anything I've ever seen in a movie. Well, I thought Diane was very powerful, guys. Thank you for doing this. Thank you. Thanks very much.

Thank you to Bill Hader and Kent Jones and Mary Kay Place for chatting with me for this episode. Please stay tuned to The Big Picture this week. We've got a couple of more episodes coming your way. The first of which is a career art conversation with rob harvilla and amanda dobbins but a little old actor you may have heard of called matthew mcconaughey and then later in the week we're continuing our marvel movie month with the avengers and my pal chris ryan so please check that out