The Big Picture - ‘Black Adam’: The Worst Movie of the Decade?

Episode Date: October 25, 2022

The hierarchy of power has changed and Sean is depressed about it. Charles Holmes and Rob Mahoney join Sean to talk about ‘Black Adam,’ the no. 1 movie at the box office, the latest installment in the DCEU, and yet another Dwayne “the Rock” Johnson action vehicle. Host: Sean Fennessey Guests: Charles Holmes and Rob Mahoney Producer: Bobby Wagner Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Yo, this is Rob Harvilla from 60 Songs That Explain the 90s, the world's greatest loopy and perverse and inaccurately named music nostalgia podcast. We're doing 90 songs now because there's too many songs. Pearl Jam, Jay-Z, Jewel, U2, Cher, Hootie. These are just some of the names people yell at me on the internet because we're back. More great songs, more rad special guests, more loopy perversity. Join us once more on 60 Songs That Explain the 90s every Wednesday on Spotify. Get groceries delivered across the GTA from Real Canadian Superstore with PC Express. Shop online for super prices and super savings. Try it today and get up to $75 in PC Optimum Points. Visit superstore.ca to get started.

I'm Sean Fennessey, and this is The Big Picture, a conversation show about Black Adam. And let me tell you, it is certainly a movie. There are actors and lights and digital effects. There, I think, was a script. Credits in the movie. Logos. Definitely a movie. Joining me today to talk about the number one movie at the box office

and the latest installment in the DCEU, Midnight Boy Charles Holmes, NBA extraordinaire Rob Mahoney. What's up, guys? Sean, are you ready for the hierarchy of podcasting to change on this podcast? Yeah. I don't think anything is changing, but we're going to get into that. So Black Adam is a movie that I would say I was not anticipating, but it certainly feels like it's relevant to the movie atmosphere right now.

In part, not just because it's the number one movie in the country, but because I think it is a totem of everything that has been happening in the biz for the last 10 years. And so I wanted to talk to you guys about it in part because the three of us had a conversation after the release of Thor 11 Thunder, very fun, funny episode in which we talked about maybe what was going wrong with the Marvel Cinematic Universe. And that seems like a simpler time. It seems like a time when maybe we underrated Love and Thunder relative to this movie. So Black Adam, just as a point of context before we get into our chat, this movie is directed by Yom Kolet Sarah, but more specifically, it's produced by Dwayne The Rock Johnson. This has been a passion project of his for many years. Black Adam is a longtime

DC kind of villain slash antihero. He's an Egyptian character. He's an ancient predecessor of Captain Marvel. We saw Captain Marvel in the Shazam film a few years ago. I suspect those characters will intersect soon. In recent years, Black Adam has become a little bit more of a corrupted antihero. He kind of is in this sort of moral gray area of the DC universe. And this is a film that The Rock has really wanted to make. You can imagine The Rock has been asked to make a superhero movie for many, many years now as it has become the vanguard of popular filmmaking. He finally got this one across the line.

It made $67 million at the US box office. And yet, I spent my Saturday night in a movie theater watching it. And I felt my soul die. Truly. I had to reflect upon what my life and career is about. And I'm going to start with Rob because Charles, you bring to this. I'm not sure if it's passion or a bit, but you bring something to it. So let me just start with Rob. Rob, what do you think of Black Adam? I had a very similar existential what are we doing here kind of experience watching this movie. And I would say even more this morning. I was watching

an interview with an extremely serious Noah Centennial explaining the psychology of what it means to be Adam Smasher. I was just like, what the fuck have we done? How did we get to this place? And more importantly for Dwayne Johnson, can you imagine spending 15 years of your life trying to get something made we get to this place and more importantly for for Dwayne Johnson like can you

imagine spending 15 years of your life trying to get something made and it's this it's yeah that that crossed my mind as well the idea of this as um his Napoleon or something is is absurd Charles you know for for weeks months it feels like years You've been touting slash undermining Black Adam. I don't expect you to clarify your bit, but I do need to know what you thought of this film that you've been talking about for a long, long time. What'd you think? To clarify, it's not a bit. It is 100% passion. Like a lot of people in this world, for while i was confused i was like the rock has spent a decade plus uh stumping for a character that to be fair is probably not even c-list like there i could count on probably one hand the people who have read a jsa comic in the last 15

years but then one night i realized maybe i'm an asshole you just saw Tom Cruise prove everybody wrong okay after years of people like just drop Top Gun Maverick bro it's fine like it'll be fine and Tom Cruise is like no no you will trust me and I was just like what if this is Dwayne The Rock Johnson's Tom Cruise Top Gun Maver moment. What if Black Adam is his citizen king? Okay? This man has spent the bulk of his movie career trying to create this thing. And maybe he knows something that I don't.

So I spent the last, honestly, I can't even count how long, really supporting this. Because I support our tours who are cast aside by the Hollywood system. And let me say, when I walked out of the movie theater, my brother asked me, what'd you think? And I'm like, he's like, should I see it? And I said, well, it depends on what is your level of interest in The Rock's bullshit for two plus hours. And mine is exponentially high.

So I had a wonderful time. I laughed constantly at the screen. Probably at moments I was not supposed to laugh, but I was just enthralled, Sean. I'm honestly happy to hear that you came by this honestly, though. Because, look, Sean, I felt a little bait

and switch. The last time we talked, you were like, give me some movies you're excited to talk about. I was like, let's talk tar. Let's talk Decision to Leave. And then I get hit up and it's, hey, do you want to come talk about Black Adam with me and Charles? So I'm glad to know that I'm the only one who was dragged into this, that you're really one of my co-captors here, Charles. I was going to bring this up, Rob. I would like to apologize, but also I'm not sorry. You know, like if somebody's going to endure this with me and it's not going to be Charles who had a good time watching this absolutely dreadful movie that is the apotheosis of everything that is wrong right now. It's okay. Let's talk about it because I think it is,

it's not an interesting film, but it's an interesting artifact of where things are at. The story itself is, it's a similar shape to I think a lot of superhero origin stories, which is to say it opens with a kind of prologue set in 2600 BC. It's set in an imaginary nation called Khandak, which I imagine is either in Northern Africa or the Middle East somewhere.

And it sets the stage for this sort of like revolt, rebellion empire situation in which there's like an evil king and he's seeking power in the form of the crown of Sabacc. I can't believe I'm saying all this stuff. Conduct needs a heroic champion. The champion rises with these powers that are granted to him via a wizard. Black Adam, it seems is born,

but then while killing the king, everyone seems to die. And then he's buried for thousands of years. Cut to the present day. Some sort of, I don't know, paramilitary company called Intergang is now running conduct. It's bad marketing for Intergang. Can we get another name for these guys? Intergang. I'm not not sure what does the logo look like on intergang is it is it like two fists punching a civilian you know like it it's really a tough situation so anyway there's an archaeologist played by sarah shahi she's looking for the crown

sabacc i think in an effort to um beat intergang with its powers. She gets trapped by Intergang and in doing so, she summons Black Adam by saying the word Shazam. And then we're kind of introduced to The Rock as this character who is, I mean, truly one of the most powerful superheroes

I've ever seen in a movie. And that is in large part why this is not a movie to me because the minute we meet him, he just destroys a four-higher mercenary army. Like there is never a doubt that he will annihilate everything in front of him. Now, obviously it's The Rock

and we know he's very powerful, but Black Adam is like, he is on the level of, he's beyond Superman. He is so powerful and imbued with so much indestructible force that you're like all right well this guy's definitely just gonna run roughshod over everybody this is in the first 10 minutes of the movie and so my honest reaction while i was

watching it was like this is not a movie this is an opportunity for the rock to body slam jobbers for two hours now charles you said that you you like the rock on his bullshit in a movie but did you did you sense that there was really no opportunity for a threat involved here here's the thing there are good comic book movies there are bad comic book movies and then there are mountain dew comic book movies where i i put the in these are venom let there be carnage both suicide squad movies just even some of the deadpool entries where they are very much like reading a 90s era comic book like by like rob leifeld where it's like this piece of content that i am watching is taking very basic building blocks

of stories such as plot characterization stakes and saying you know these are deterrents actually from what you really want so when i was watching it i was like charles would you have liked black adam better if they had done any of those things or are you laughing so much at this because there is one part in this movie where by the third time black adam beats hawkman's ass i'm just like i'm like bro like we get it so i was enthralled and just to give you some like background i went to like my small local theater. This is a theater that is going to have both Tar and One Piece Red, which is an anime movie. I don't get their programming, but it was filled with preteens. And the preteen boys were having a blast.

Their parents, not so much, but I was just like, why is this theater so packed? I've never seen a theater like this packed before. So I was just like, is this theater so packed i've never seen a theater like this pack before so i was just like oh yeah maybe the rock gets his demo maybe the rock is just like let's do a lot of slow motion shots and me beating up hawkman for two hours because i'm speaking to my audience so that is my answer that is the most generous reading of like meeting a movie where it is that i've ever heard in my entire life i do wonder like is this real rock bullshit though because in a way he's kind of cultivated this image as like america's ripped dad and he's he's clearly trying to do something different but he can't quite get out of his own shadow sometimes yeah i what i feel like he's trying to do Don Draper if he had superpowers. You know, sort of like withering and kind of mean,

but also so obviously better than everyone. You kind of have to accept his greatness. And it's, I think, an awful setup for a movie. I think it's kind of fascinating. You know, you mentioned Hawkman, Charles, at a certain point in the film, the Justice Society of America is introduced to the story, or at least a shrunk down version of that superhero group. In fact, they're hardly even introduced. The whole movie just kind of like jet streams everyone in front

of you and doesn't really take much pain to describe backstory or to really contextualize the world. I wouldn't say that necessarily bothered me. Honestly, I think throat clearing is a huge problem with a lot of these origin story movies. So just kind of getting to the action made sense. Then when we get to the action, it is about 88% action, this movie. And I think that one of the reasons why, to your point about the preteens, Charles, this movie not only did pretty good business, but has a 90% approval score from the audiences on Rotten Tomatoes. Best since The Dark Knight, which I've had to read a bunch.

I mean, that's pretty crazy. It's by far the best of this DC run. Um, and that people seem to like it. And I'm sure there are some people who saw the movie who are listening to this conversation and are like, at least for Rob and I are like, these dipshits need to shut up and let black Adam cook. But I'm, I'm having a hard time with it for a variety of reasons. It comes to us at a unique point in which I think the superhero exhaustion is pretty real for most people who care about movies. It's pretty real, I think, for filmmakers

who feel like they can't really do a lot of big budget projects without necessarily telling a story like this. I think DC is also at an interesting inflection point, which I'm curious to hear from you both about just in terms of what kind of stories they're telling and why they're telling them, in part because there's a lot going on behind the scenes. But just sticking with the movie, like Charles, were actors good in this movie? You know, was there any like was the action dynamic? Was there anything that you could

like genuinely recommend and say there's something cool about what's happening inside of this film? All right. So Black as the number one Black Adam fan, I want all of my devoted listeners to skip about 30 seconds to a minute from what I'm about to say, because Sean might be holding a gun to my head, but I will say this. I think the superhero genre is at this point where it has unintentionally started recycling itself. Like it's a snake eating its own tail where there were

various points in this movie whether it was the acting or what was happening on screen that felt as if an ai had like downloaded the last 25 years of superhero movies and then spit out a script like the atonium part i was just like wait are they trying to make like Black Panther? Are they trying to make Kondak like the Wakanda of DC? They had the 90s kid who was like skateboarding all the time. And I was just like, wait, what is happening? Even there were parts where The Rock's performance of Black Adam seemed both to be playing on Drax from Guardians of the Galaxy and that he did not understand sarcasm, but also trying to be a hodgepodge

of Wolverine at his most berserk. I was just like, this seems like just the biggest hodgepodge of superhero entertainment that I've ever seen. And it was wild because, I mean, even to the action, to your point, they were cribbing action scenes from Justice League, a very derided movie where they just kept doing slow motion. And I was like, wait, I thought we were past this?

Why do they keep doing super slow motion in 2022? Those are the moments where I was laughing, where I was like, oh man. Yeah, if you're a deep DC fan with like big questions on how this fits into the Snyderverse, I think that's asked and answered by the sheer amount of slow-mo in this movie. Like they are of a piece 100%.

It's so funny how those films loom over this film and is ostensibly connected to this film, in part because there's a mid-credit sequence that introduces an important character in these stories, and in part because DC is kind of bifurcated now into kind of crazy DC, in which

auteurs get the chance to make kind of whatever movie they want and make the characters fungible and make them non-canonical. And then there is this almost like hangover effect of the Snyder films where like we kind of still sort of need to use the actors who portrayed those characters. Momoa as Aquaman, you know, Ezra Miller as the Flash, Henry Cavill as Superman. They're not really going anywhere anytime soon. Fans are at least somewhat invested in those actors as those characters. But it doesn't appear like there is a plan in part because the lead executive of the DCEU is moving on. There's been a merger bringing Discovery and WarnerMedia together. And so there's a little bit of confusion about the state of the studio. The film itself, you know, one of the sequences

you're talking about, I think, is kind of an emblem of the issue, which is that opening sequence, that opening battle sequence where we first see the slow-mo, where I think they're trying

to use a kind of like bullet time slash the flash effect where Black Adam is moving slowly in the frame, but is actually moving quite fast

through the action. And it's set to the sounds of the rolling stones painted black which like i mean i guess credit to them for shelling out for the licensing fee and this you know mick and keith got paid in their dotage which that's great for them but i and i guess it's painted black because he's black adam i i i genuinely was like who is this for like do 12 year olds like this song does dwayne johnson like this song what does it really have to do with our story here we're we're it's this is a battle in egypt um i i just it just feels like a lot of pre-teen gamers got in a room and we're like we're gonna

make a movie. I don't know how to keep saying the same thing over and over again in interesting ways, but this movie's dumb. Is really where I'm going. Was there anything redeeming about it to you, Rob? Even the things that almost worked. I love to see Aldous Hodge in a movie. I'm happy to see him on screen.

And his main job is just to be a wet blanket for two hours screaming about due process. That's his whole role in this movie. He was the greatest. to see him on screen. And his main job is just to be a wet blanket for two hours, like screaming about due process. That's his whole role in this movie. You didn't love that? Every time he was on screen, I was just like,

I've never, the world has never gave a fuck about Hawkman. And for every single time he was on screen yelling like, we have unfinished business. I was like,

hell yeah, Aldous Hodge. Let's go. Didn't that also feel like a direct crib from the Falcon and the Winter Soldier and the kind of conflict

between those characters and the idea of justice, right and wrong, versus doing ultimately what's right at all costs. That was like the primary tension

of that story. It's the primary tension of the Captain America character. And then Dr. Fate, who's played by Pierce Brosnan, who's really trying. He's really giving a sincere effort in a movie that does not necessitate his sincere effort. But he is playing a character called Dr. Fate,

who is just Dr. Strange, who's a guy who multiplies himself with magical powers, who can see the future and manipulates time and is just doing everything that dr strange did in in the avengers films and i our audience is like i don't care it's fine that this is all the same that this is just an agglomerated bundle of rubber bands of storytelling because i i found this i'm watching it and let me just set the scene here um i did tweet about this but I'm going to share it regardless. I saw a 7.15 screening of this film

in an Alamo draft house. Love draft house. Great place to see a movie. There was only one seat left when I went to go buy my ticket. It was in the front row on the far right side. Row one, seat one. I arrived at 7.16, just under the gun. I sat down, and beside me was a fellow

in a purple, tailored tailored pinstripe suit. He was wearing a cravat. He had dyed green hair. He had red lipstick. He had white pancake makeup. I sat next to the Joker and the Joker was there to see a DC film. And he was

drinking a tall glass that had a Shirley Temple inside of it. And he was already cackling. He was cackling in the Joker voice. It was Heath Ledger as the Joker. That was his voice. And he watched the film and he laughed very, very hard at all of the violent scenes. And this movie is, as I said, 88% violent scenes. He left notes for the server at the Alamo Drafthouse the way that one does in the voice of the Joker. He wrote ha ha ha in every corner. He was using exclamation points

and crazy smiley faces he seemed slightly deranged though not dangerous so i wasn't afraid but i was concerned and i was certainly annoyed now perhaps this is influencing my takeaway on the film but i don't even really think so how did it take us this long to get to this was this i feel like you burned the lead of quite quite literally my dream movie going experience watching black adam like but that is amazing this was not charles to your point like this wasn't a themed screening you know there wasn't like another guy dressed as the flash down the row it was just a dude he was just he was wearing you know vinyl bowling shoes and ready to kill batman as soon as this the screening ended it was very very strange um i will say he was ultimately a good samaritan and

i'll tell you why uh you know at the alamo draft house you can order food and drink with a server and i ordered a drink about halfway through the movie frankly because i needed a cocktail and i got my cocktail and he the server put it on the wrong table in fact he put it put it on the Joker's table and the Joker realized what had happened and he put it on my table and he said, I believe this is yours. And I said, thanks so much. Cut to 20 minutes later, they send the bills around at the Alamo Drafthouse and they dropped the bill on the Joker's table and they charged him for his Shirley Temple and my drink on his card. And he turned to me and he said, I think they charged my card. And I was like, oh shit, this means I have to spend more time with the Joker.

We're going to have to get this bill sorted when the movie's over. So the movie can't end fast enough. As soon as the movie ends, the Joker turns to me and he says, why don't you leave now? Because I'm not going to pay for the bill and neither should you.

I'll just complain. So you should get out of here as quickly as possible. And I was like, it's a very sound logic, Joker. Thank you very much. So I got up and left. And I was like, it's a very sound logic, Joker. Thank you very much. So I got up and left. And as I left, I turned and said, thank you. And he said, you can always trust a criminal. And then he started cackling.

And I walked out. That's a true story. It's 100% true. The greatest. That should have been the greatest day of your life, Sean. I mean, you did just have a daughter. So second day. Second.

This might be number one. Are you a henchman now? Yeah, so I took a gig at Arkham Asylum. And I just want to get closer to the Joker. Oh, the benefits are great. No, I mean, I think that this guy's... Now, on the one hand, it's Halloween season. Maybe this guy was going to a party afterwards.

Maybe he's an active cosplayer. I'm not really sure what the situation was. He stayed in character for the whole film. On the other hand, his presence and my presence, somewhat grouchy 40-year-old film critic podcaster, I think locates the delineation in our culture. And I'm somebody who has touted superhero movies in the past. I was a huge comic book reader as a kid.

I come to this stuff very honestly and sincerely. I love listening to the Midnight Boys every week. Like I'm engaged in the culture of it. But when it is like boiled down quite literally to its component parts, which is to say like salt and water. It's really depressing. And I was really depressed watching this. Really? I'm so hurt right now.

But like, okay, here's the thing. You mentioned a bunch of films, Charles. You mentioned Deadpool. You mentioned Venom, Let There Be Carnage. Those movies, I think, either have camp or a sense of humor. And this movie really,

with the exception of black adam learns what sarcasm is had no jokes like no jokes oh my leader was silent i think they laughed maybe twice isn't that bizarre like rob did that strike you as odd in a movie like this which needs to kind of be a little tongue-in-cheek to work it did and it made it like all the cuts to the junior justice society members doing bits it made it like all the cuts to the junior justice society members doing bits it made it like even even a tougher hang than i think it probably should have and could have been no centennial eating chicken wings i'm like what are we doing being hungry is not a personality stop we need to stop doing this but but i think it look all this circles the larger problem

including the deranged joker activity which is this is a movie that's like kind of obsessed with other dc characters like apparently the kondak kondak has a very rich merch import market and our skater team just has like posters and action figures of batman and aquaman and superman everywhere which i think it just makes it even weirder that we have f list hawkman as like the primary counterpoint to a character who's so strong we have no drama in the entire movie. And I think like that's really my whole problem with these villain focused endeavors is you either get Joker, which is supposing what if the Joker's real nemesis was capitalism, okay? Or you get Black Adam, which is these random guys we can afford to throw into a movie because

we don't really have anything else to do with them i'm a little depressed for uh the yom kol etzera aspect of this um he's the director of this film he's become a fairly big filmmaker uh in in recent years he was a guest on this show about four years ago he's a spanish director um he made a couple horror movies early in his career that have strong fan bases, a remake of House of Wax and Orphan. And then he went on this run with Liam Neeson in which he made a bunch of the best Liam Neeson post-taken action hero,

kind of stripped down genre films, among them Unknown, Nonstop, and Run All Night. And then he made The Shallows, pretty fun shark attack movie with Blake Lively. And so he, for a period there, both in kind of highfalutin, like what I really do is spend all my time looking at genre movie reviews on Letterboxd crowd,

but also in the mainstream movie crowd of kind of down and dirty programmers, developed a cool reputation. And his last two films have been Jungle Cruise with The Rock last year, a film that did not work, and now Black Adam. And I don't know if you guys had any awareness

of Colette Serra as a kind of like a post-Michael Bay object of affection, but he seems to have just abandoned all that to make $200 million superhero movies. Kind of bummed out. Charles, do you care about youngom Kolet, Sarah? I'm going to die one day, Sean, so I have not seen Jungle Cruise.

I'm going to be honest with you. And no shouts to your boy, but there was very, like, I had a good time at a theater, but there was, like, quite a few moments where I was like, did our director direct this movie? Or did Dwayne The Rock Johnson

just sit in the editing bay and be like hey uh I need more lightning there I need some more punches here because like this the the famous story that happens on Fast and the Furious was that it was written into both of Vin Diesel and the Rock's contract that they both had to have equal equal punches neither could get the upper hand and black adam is like the metaphorical representation when there's no vin diesel when it is just the rock being allowed to win every single fight and have final cut over every single action scene because i'm like was there no director who was like sitting there and be like, yo, Dwayne, please, can you just let anybody else get hit? Please, dude.

Like, that's how I felt the entire film. Like, this is no shots of the director. I was just like, is it fair to say that there was a director here? Because it didn't feel like it. I felt that way a little bit in watching the trailer for this movie juxtaposed with the actual movie and i would say this is a spoiler warning but it's literally the first line of the trailer where they reveal that the way black adam got his powers is because his son was murdered and then the movie slow plays that as if it's a twist for two-thirds of the movie i was just like pat like was that something

that they added in after the fact because again again, Dwayne Johnson thought they needed some spice. He wanted a little more juice for his character in the third act. I'm so confounded by the way this whole thing was put together. It does feel like it was hacked up. You know, to your point, Charles, most films that have mega box office stars like this who are producers of the film do have a say in how the film is cut

and how it looks and how it's navigate how the story is navigated and the other the other factor that i think is relevant to this is that this film eventually does have to fit into the dc storytelling somehow and you know you you mentioned the catch phrase the sort of promotional line of this movie which is the hierarchy of power changing in the DC universe. As I said before, there's a lot of hierarchy shifting going on behind the scenes at the studio. But when we talked

about Thor Love and Thunder and what's going on with Marvel, and I think this sort of ambient exhaustion or confusion around some of the decision-making choices, I don't think any of us said, burn it all down. We need to start over. I think that there might be a case for that

with these characters and this structure, but maybe not. Rob, from your perspective, do you even care enough to see a reconstituted series of DC movies? These characters matter to you. Could you, in earnestness, share with me a strategy for what to do with the series of DC movies. These characters matter to you. Like, could you in earnestness share with me a strategy

for what to do with the future of DC? I think the strategy is probably what it's already been, which is print money. And they're still doing that. Like, these are still, like, this is going to be

a massively successful movie. So the joke's really on us. Like, we went and saw it. We participated in this process. Our guy, The Rock, spent 15 years making this movie so he could basically play the Scorpion King again. And this is where we live now. I'm glad they're going to continue making the Batman movies.

I think that's been by far the most successful version of this exercise so far. But as far as needing to make some interconnected universe in which all these things cohabitate and exist, I don't really think you need to do it. And I think, frankly, DC fans are probably conditioned more than most to know how to live without it. Like if you're like interested or into it all, like the animated DC movies,

they're all kind of like loosely binding and barely connected anyway. This is just kind of the way these particular stories have lived for a long time. Charles, what about for you? Like, what about for you? What would you do? If you were named the new president of DC Productions, would you continue forth with all of these actors who've been put in place with this mythos that has been sort of built, but sort of abandoned? Or would you do something different?

Oh, no. Burn it all to the ground. It's time. It's been time. Like, we're done. Like, it's been time like we like we're done like it's like it's been fun everyone but this is curse property okay uh the flash like what are we doing here okay we are at a point with dc where i like i gotta be honest clean the slate i wouldn't release movies for two or three years just i don't even need the DCEU to be interconnected like Marvel. I just need us to start asking questions of like, did we need a second The Suicide Squad movie?

Even if people liked it, there's nothing wrong with that movie. It is what it is. But part of me is like, wait, this is what we're spending all of our money on. Like, am I really just like hankering to like for them to recast The Flash in a second movie? Like not really. Even the second Aquaman. I liked the first Aquaman. I'm dreading having to have any type of opinions on that movie.

At this point, I just think it's all like curse land, sell it off, shout shout out the watcher sell the fucking house okay we we just need to fucking move on and this is coming from someone who like enjoyed black adam for what it is and one final point sean i want to i want to ask you all this give to you do you think that part of like the vitriol about this movie, not from the audience score, but from people like us critics is because the rock went on one of the best benders of marketing and PR of all time, where he had the hierarchy of power shit.

There was Instagram posts of him plotting in, in a conference room about the world domination of this movie, upholding a baby like he's Rafiki and it's Simba. Do you think part of this is just like our cultural obsession with kind of seeing the impervious fall? Where I think there is a love, because like, I'm going to be honest, I didn't hate this movie any more than I like dislike Dr. Stranger Thor. It was all of the same piece, but it was just the fact that The Rock wanted this to succeed to such an extent. Like that seems like that's part of,

part of what's happening. In 100 meters, turn right. Actually, no, turn left. There's some awesome new breakfast wraps at McDonald's. Yeah. There's the sausage new breakfast wraps at McDonald's. Really? Yeah. There's the sausage, bacon, and egg. A crispy seasoned chicken one. Mmm. A spicy end egg. Worth the detour. They sound amazing. Bet they taste amazing too. Wish I had a mouth. Take your morning into a delicious new direction with McDonald's new breakfast wraps. Add a small premium roast coffee for a dollar plus tax at participating McDonald's restaurants.

Ba-da-ba-ba-ba. I think that's an interesting opportunity to talk about doing The Rock Johnson. I certainly have no desire to see The Rock fail. The Rock gave me a great deal of joy as a young, developing, professional wrestling fan. I mean, he really like, he emerged in the late 90s as,

to me, like the quintessential postmodern professional wrestler. And he had an authentic sense of humor. He seemed to be creative. He was a perfectly adequate kind of heavyweight wrestler, but he was a great, great character and a great invention of sort of like wrestling storytelling.

It was all leading to him in Stone Cold Steve Austin at that time. And so if you watched him and if you were invested in him and the catchphrases and the electrifying way that he connected with audiences, you would think that he actually would have a chance to be the logical successor

to Arnold Schwarzenegger, Sylvester Stallone, the great 90s action heroes. And then going back to the Charles Bronsons and even the Robert Mitchums, this long lineage of tough guy, sarcastic, clever movie idols. When it was announced that he was going to be in The Scorpion King and that he was making a transition to Hollywood, I had authentically high hopes. I was like, this guy could be the one. And I would like to spend a little bit of time with you guys

kind of going through what his movie career has been because there are a couple of victories there, but for the most part like i i i'm flabbergasted at the safeness and the kind of staleness of so many of the movies that he's made i like i remain a fan of his i've told this story before but i'll tell you guys really quickly one other quick thing which is that i went to the premiere of hobson shaw a few years ago. And it was at the TCL Chinese. It was at the big room in Hollywood. And I think somebody dropped a soda

and it hit the floor and then rolled into a seat where there was a light underneath the seat, you know, the lights that sort of guide the pathway when you walk down the aisle. And there was an electrical failure

and all the lights flashed out and they had to stop the film is this when the joker showed up stop the and he said you can always trust a criminal so the lights go out they pause the film and since it was the premiere duane johnson was there he came out and he started vamping with the audience and it took them 35 minutes to get the lights back on and to start the film again. And he vamped the entire time. He mocked Jason Statham during this vamping. He talked about whether or not he should host the Academy Awards.

He talked about what he was going to do next in his movie career. He was dynamite. He was so funny and so charming. So he definitely still has it. It's not like he doesn't have it. But when you see that what he wants to do is to spend his time playing a character like Black Adam, I guess because there was something appealing about the moral gray area of the character to him. And that seemed to be an interesting way to kind of defy conventional superhero movie storytelling, even though we did have The Dark Knight like 15 years ago and don't

need to see stories about the moral gray area anymore. I still weirdly hold out hope for him. And there was a part of me that was like, maybe this movie will actually be decent. And then it'll be a springboard into a conversation about a guy who could be a good movie star if he did things slightly differently. And now I feel like hope is kind of lost. You know, I'd be curious to hear if there are films that he's made that you guys like or have interest in, or if you've even just checked out on him as an actor. Like, Rob, what does The Rock mean to you, if anything?

I think he means, like, obviously hyper charismatic, as you described, indisputably so, and has spent the last 10 years sanding down every interesting edge he has into as we as we've kind of been circling here basically playing the same kind of badass in every movie where he had not only does he have to win every every fight he has to win every argument like he needs to be right all the time which makes the moral gray area of this movie just so ridiculous like he's only killing inter-gangsters like no Like no one is disputing this

except Hawkman in due process. But so like that has put him in such a weird space as a movie star where it's clear he wants to be the world's biggest movie star. I don't think he really cares about being a great one. Like he just wants to hit all four quadrants.

He wants those box office numbers to go up. He wants to get movies like this made. But as far as making interesting things, I think the ship sailed on that a long time ago charles what about for you do you see hope do you like him oh i mean i love the rock like the like here's i was hooked on black adam when i just knew i was like oh this is a man that is totally subsumed by his own man where it it's like, I still sometimes read physical comics, and they did like a Black Adam review in the back of it. And it was basically talking about, you know, as a kid, I always admired this character. And, you know, one day I saw this comic, blah, blah, blah, blah.

And I'm like, yo, Dwayne, stop. Stop lying. There were no Black Adam comics. What Black Adam comic were you, like, I read comic books. There was no Black Adam comic books you were reading at your age that were good enough for you to be like,

this is the character that I've wanted to be since childhood. And that's why I've always loved his movie making career because it is that. It is literally somebody trying to make a myth, not of quality,

but of utter quantity. He is selling The Rock. When I watched Hobbs and Shaw, I was like, how could you mess up a movie that should be a layup? I remember watching Hobbs and Shaw in theaters. I'm like, what the fuck happened? This is actually what happens when The Rock has too much power. And that's what I think has progressively happened as he's gotten further and further in his career, has become a more successful actor and producer. Every single time I see him in a movie, I'm like, you can't make the creative decisions here. Where it's like, if I'm going to be honest, probably the most successful thing he's done as an actor in a while is Moana because it is all voice it is

there's no chance for him to be like all right I need to cherry pick every single fight and to Rob's point every single argument I have to win no he just has to be a charismatic voice I wish he had more of that energy where I'm just like dude just be you just just stop squeezing the puppy until it's dead can you just like let go a little bit well the thing about moana and this is kind of i think a problem with him more generally is other than the other guys i can't remember many times he's like let himself be the butt of a joke you know like he needs he needs to be funny in that kind of way in order for his personality to really sing in order for all this other stuff to really pop and click like when we see him in movies like the rundown i think that

really works that kind of that kind of buddy cop dynamic of movies like that and there's just no one who can play buddy cop with him anymore he he kind of won't allow it yeah he the one person that he'll occasionally do it with is someone who i'm just kind of allergic to as a moviegoer who is kevin hart like he and kevin hart have good chemistry but like i just can't i've seen too many kevin hart movies to just see the same kind of movie to as a moviegoer who is Kevin Hart. Like he and Kevin Hart have good chemistry, but like, I just can't, I've seen too many Kevin Hart movies to just see the same kind of movie over and over again. But I agree with you. I think the rundown was one of the more successful movies he's made.

It is like a little bit more of a strip town, bare knuckle action comedy. It feels like, like a knockoff of a Richard Donner movie from the nineties. And so it's effective. But to your point, Charles, like I think he's at often at his most interesting when he's not the star.

You know, when he is somebody who is playing second banana or fifth banana, you know, like he has made a handful of movies that are at least interesting movies. Like he made Southland Tales. You know, he made Pain and Gain. You mentioned the other guys, Rob. Like those are maybe the three best movies he's made and

he's not the lead of any of those movies and they're from real filmmakers and that's the other thing is that he is he's in a little bit of um gosh this is something that tom cruise started to do um which is that he stopped working with high-level auteurs. Now, he made up for it by building, forging this partnership with Christopher McQuarrie, and then the two of them together kind of built this industry of action storytelling with Mission Impossible and Jack Reacher, and now Top Gun Maverick. The Rock doesn't really work with high-level filmmakers ever, and that's kind of what, and this is something that Myles Surrey observed in a piece about The Rock on The Ringer last week.

You know, Arnold worked with James Cameron and Paul Verhoeven. And his best movies are the films he made with those guys. And that's it. That's really what it boils down to. He is a legendary figure in movie history because of The Terminator

and because of James Cameron. And perhaps there are no active James Camerons out there looking for a Dwayne Johnson, but he doesn't seem to be pursuing that kind of work. And that's okay. It's okay that he's not found his John McTiernan necessarily. But without that, he's made what feels like 20 consecutive movies that you can watch and then put in the junk bin. And that bums me out because I think that there is an art to being an action star. You know, there's nothing wrong with making a high level action movie. There's nothing

disreputable about it. There's not even anything wrong with making a quality superhero film. You know, it's like if Dwayne Johnson, did he appeal to Ryan Coogler to make Black Adam? I don't know. Maybe he did once upon a time since this has been happening for 15 years. But Young Colette Sarah is not the answer. You know what I mean? And making another Fast and the Furious film is not the answer. Those are paycheck jobs. Those are doing what Charles was describing. Charles, perhaps this is just wish casting on a movie podcast, but would locating an exciting, promising young action director help this problem?

I want to say yes. My heart wants to say yes because I love Dwayne. I just think it's a lost cause at this point because I do think that like you would know this better than me. I think The Rock is actually probably one of the last stars left

that can launch a movie across all quadrants. And I think his movies, like even Black Adam to me, stunk of like, oh, you're trying to make sure this movie not only does well in the US, but does well internationally. Like all of his movies have that patina of it.

So I'm like, yes yes i want to say in my heart like if like i don't know if he tried to do uh a movie with ryan coogler maybe ryan coogler could get the best out of him part of me is like he's not at that like point where he'll listen to a ryan coogler because he's like dude come on all of my movies go number one like even when they're stinkers i hop back he's one of the most bankable action All of my movies go number one. Even when they're stinkers, I hop back. He's one of the most bankable action stars. So what are you going to tell him at that point? I'll ask you this, Sean.

Who in Hollywood do you think The Rock would listen to in 2022? That's a great question. I'm not sure that there's anybody. Would he listen to James Cameron? Would he listen? James Cameron's like, look, sit down, like I will mold you into one of the greatest action actors

if you give me 10 years of your life. Would The Rock even be willing to do that? How would he look as a Na'vi is the question. I mean, he certainly could pull that off. I don't think James Cameron is interested in in the rock right and what the rock represents as a screen idol you know when he when Cameron took on Arnold and was at 84 I think the first Terminator film is he was still like largely unmolded clay he was Conan the barbarian and that's really it as far as um his reputation as a as a movie star and you're

right Charles Dwayne Johnson is older now. I mean, he's been around for a long, long time. He's been in movies for well over 20 years now. So part of it is power. Part of it is that the old school kind of studio system has fallen away and is now built largely around intellectual property. And so he can kind of continue to pivot.

And he's pivoted Fast and the Furious into Jumanji, into Black Adam. I was wondering, could you guys name, what are The Rock's top 10 movies

at the box office? Do you have any, could you go through the list? I feel like it's going to be more depressing than we think. I think the top five will probably be all Fast and Furious movies,

I would assume. Not correct. Not correct. Not correct? Only two of the five. Fast Five and Fast Six? Fast Five. Well, I'm going domestic box office. Fast Five is two, four, six.

The seventh highest grossing film in The Rock's career. Seven is the one that's in the top five, I would think, right? Furious Seven is number two. How did Jumanji do? Yeah, Jumanji's got to be in there jumanji has to be up there jumanji one is number one jumanji two is number three is moana number two moana is number four number two is furious seven and number five is fast and furious six and then below that, we've got The Mummy Returns, San Andreas, Get Smart, Central Intelligence,

G.I. Joe Retaliation, another bid for intellectual property mastery. That one's not bad. You know, as far as like big, dumb action movies go, I kind of would prefer that to Black Adam,

if we're being honest. At least there's like some swords, some people scaling, some cliffs. Like, let's go. I love the G.I. Joe Retaliation i love the gi joe retaliation take that's incredible i mean that's actually a pretty good cast bruce willis channing tatum the rizza jonathan

price he plays the president uh i mean that's from john chu john chu directed you know crazy rich asians and and a number of other uh pretty pretty good films that's the thing is like maybe john is john chu the best filmmaker he's worked with in the last 10 years. Could be. But the other thing, too, is that what I worry about is that he is actually having the inverse effect, which is that he is corrosive to talented filmmakers. And maybe it's because of what you described, Charles. Like, I like Colette Sarah. I really like David Leitch, or at least I did before he made Hobbs and Shaw. He's obviously someone who is instrumental in making the John Wick franchise. He made Atomic Blonde. He's made some good films. Hobbs and Shaw, he's obviously someone who was instrumental in making the John Wick franchise. He made Atomic Blonde.

He's made some good films. Hobbs and Shaw does not work. You know, I guess Adam, is he responsible for Adam McKay's journey into more serious fare? Perhaps that's why he pivoted to the big short after he got a little on-screen time with him and the other guys.

You know, I don't know. Is he like the toxifying agent of quality filmmakers in Hollywood right now? Maybe that's a little too far. What do you think, Charles? I do think that there is that. And this is coming from someone who like literally pumped The Rock's bullshit in my veins.

There's nothing fun. This has been one of the greatest stretches of six months of my life, of seeing this man trying to scale the cliff that he made for himself. I just, yeah, I do think that there is a corrosive effect of when there are no bankable actors in Hollywood anymore, or at least it's like Tom Cruise, The Rock, and maybe a few others. others yeah this is what you get this is and i think i've been thinking of the physicality of the rock as well where it's like the rock never did that thing where i feel like all action stars who want to be taken seriously do which is like they have a couple roles where they're like i'm going to change my body i'm going to try to be more vulnerable

i'm going to try to do this thing and get to the core of who I am as an actor. Instead of The Rock doing that, he's gotten progressively bigger the older he's gotten. Like there's a layer of creatine over his heart that no one can penetrate. And that's what I think is metaphorically happening with The Rock. Instead of him becoming older and getting more seasoned and getting more real, for lack of a better word, he has shored up his muscles so that nothing will ever hurt him again. And I think what you have that is just like, you leave a theater and you're just like, I felt nothing.

But he feels nothing. You know, he's not hurt. He's protected. He's built this, all these layers for himself. I feel like he's so far removed from, like in Walking Tall, taking on a bunch of like small town cronies and getting boards like bashed over his head you know in a smaller more

human looking form versus this dude can literally only play black adams at this point like this this is this is the only thing that like oh that looks like a human that would fit in this world i don't know that i've i've like buy a world where he's just like working at a shop you know like i don't know that he i don't know that he doesn't have a one hour photo in him you know i'm not sure i'm signing up for that wait rob to your point the the worst wonkiest cgi of the whole movie oh my god they tried to put the rock's fucking huge head on a still muscular guy's body but the like i was just like that's not the rock he's body. But like, I was just like, that's not the rock. He's never looked like that.

And I was just like, wait, what is, what is happening? That is like the perfect encapsulation of who the rock is at this point. I have to argue with you though. The worst use of CGI in this movie is Noah Centennial's CGI steroid body. Like it looks like he's puffed up up in an inflated suit for this movie. I'd like to talk to you guys a little bit about some breaking news in the world of Dwayne The Rock Johnson. As we're recording this, Deadline.com has published an update to

news about The Rock's new film. A 2023 film called Red One. Now you might think that this is a sequel to Red Notice, a movie he made last year with Ryan Reynolds and Gal Gadot, which is not a good movie and was roundly mocked.

But in fact, it is not. It is not a sequel to that film. It is, well, according to the deadline, it says, the PIX plot is under wraps. However, the event film is looking to be a franchisable piece of IP which will extend to the tentacles of amazon itself in merchandising if that isn't satan's code for burn it down i

don't know what is this movie uh the movie star is uh the rock and it seems like nick kroll who i love frankly um and is directed by Jay Kasdan, who has directed the Jumanji films, and who's somebody who started off making very different kinds of movies, you know, like Zero Effect and Orange County and the TV set and is now, and of course Walk Hard was

probably his greatest film and now makes movies like Jumanji and Red One. And I think that, again, not unlike Black Adam, you can kind of locate the challenge of being a movie star like The Rock, in part because you have this big production company, the industry is dependent upon you to make these big films. If you're going to get a project going, that's an original story. And credit to him. Red Notice, that was an original script. This is an original script. Skyscraper, that was an original script.

It's not like he's not making original movies. He made San Andreas. He's made a lot of movies that are ostensibly not based on IP. But even when he does that, the explicit goal is to make it franchisable IP. They're putting that in the first piece published about how the film is going to happen. Now, like, can't it just be a movie? Like, can it seriously not be something that isn't part of the way to fill your Amazon cart full of red one merchandise?

Like that's, that's like, that is like dystopian or well, Ian satire of where our culture was going. And it's just straight up. it's a fucking Wally territory and it I want to disturb as this is me I want to congratulate Sean

and Rob because I promised myself I promised my dear girlfriend promised the world that I would not hop on the big picture and let you burst my bubble okay I was gonna ride for fucking Black Adam in the rock until the cows came home. But goddamn,

if Sean did not do his best, we're going to be like, fuck this. Fuck everything about this. Charles, be honest. Was it the word tentacles in regard to merchandising being weeded into your life?

Was that what did it? It was the tentacles part where I was just like, oh man, this is, I thought I was doing the world a service by preaching the gospel of black adam and i was just a cog in the system oh man no instead you are being choked out by the vampire squid of modern entertainment it's

absolutely punishing rob here's the thing one thing i know is that the next piece on Deadline.com is likely to be about the forthcoming Black Adam sequel. And honestly, I'm going to be there. I'm going to go see it because I hate myself and I've got a job to do. You don't. I ensnared you in this circumstance because

I just wanted to talk to you on the pod and I just felt like, who better than... I need someone to die with me, basically. Okay, I can do that. Will you see Black Adam 2 or the next iteration of Black Adam? I think he has to have something to go up against. Like, if this is a...

Do we want to get into the post-credit stuff at all here? Let's do a big spoiler warning for anybody who's still listening to this Viking funeral for the film Black Adam. There is a mid-credit sequence, and if you don't want that spoiler for you, turn off the podcast. Rob, what happens in the mid-credit sequence? Yeah, so Superman shows up in the mid-credit sequence. Fine. I'm happy for everyone who's excited by that. If that's kind of the premise of a second movie, either Black Adam fighting Shazam even,

or Superman, or somebody where, again, there's a single dramatic moment of action in a two-hour movie, I think I would probably watch that. Like, I'm still rock-pilled at the end of the day. And I will show up to watch that. I hope it's good. My one plea, I have one plea.

And this is tough for me to say as someone who loves genre filmmaking, which at its its core there's a lot of social commentary there's a lot of political and like reflections of real life in all of these different genres and movies don't feel like black adam has to say something because when this movie got into the oppressor's plot by having a giant adam smasher accidentally knock over a statue. Like you fucking lost the plot, man. So let these guys just beat each other up for a couple hours, have some great action set pieces, have some good lines.

I would be totally fine with that. I'm honestly okay with a very postmodern post-plot. Like let's just have guys punch each other for a couple hours if the punching is good we need the punching to be better that's the that's the high bar i'm trying to put on black adam too i think you're right i think that is actually a huge part of the issue with the movie is that it's it's almost entirely an action movie with not very good action charles i assume that you are first in line for black adam versus Superman? Here's the thing. All right.

They have us, okay? It's going to be real. Once people started comparing the Rotten Tomatoes score of Black Adam to Thor, Love and Thunder and Captain Marvel, you got us, guys. Laugh, laugh. Have your jokes, okay? But the hierarchy of power cannot change in a day.

It can't change in a week it might take years okay so i'm telling everybody on this podcast i will be the first in line when black adam beats the shit out of henry cavill okay and it might be one of the greatest action movies we have and i will laugh and i will laugh and i will laugh because i will not abandon the rock and i will never abandon Black Adam. You just turned into Bundini Brown there for a second. That was amazing. I mean, yeah, I guess I will be there too. I think the other thing, what's actually even worse, a worse outcome from my vantage point is if DC and Warner Discovery brings in a new head to run the slate of films,

and they junk everything, and they start over. In a way, then I would be like, so I just spent 10 consecutive years watching and re-watching DC movies just to keep everything coherent in my mind, and you've done away with it. I'm not 16 anymore.'m 40 guys and i'm i'm out here watching black adam this is this is the state of affairs in american movies that's always this way there's always junky stuff there's always popular stuff that isn't very good but um i i i did i found this really depressing and i'm sorry if i I depressed you. And Rob, I'm really sorry.

And as an olive branch, I think we are going to talk about Tar on the episode later this week. So if you want to come on and talk about it, if you want to join, even if you just want to come in, let Rob cook for 10 minutes, hear all of his big thoughts on Tar.

I'd love for you to be there. This just feels like a half-hearted invitation. You know, I feel like you've grabbed me by the wrist, like Black Adam grabbing an intergang soldier and just whipped my arm off and threw me against the wall I can't believe

anything you're saying all right let's not be disingenuous because Sean you had us on here talking about Thor love and thunder so at a certain point like we know Rob and I know what

what crew we are to the big picture it's like let's have a state of the union on shitty superhero movies. But I don't want, what I don't want is for you guys to get typecast

the way that The Rock has typecast himself in cinema. So Charles, spin the wheel. What's the next movie you want to come on and chat about?

One Piece Red. I had to plan that episode around that. Do you even know what One Piece is? I do. I do know what it is. I never cover you even know what One Piece is? I do. I do know what it is. I never cover anime, honestly,

unless you're on the show. I was really looking forward to hearing Sean explain the plot of this movie on this podcast. I would love to hear him recap the plot of One Piece Red at the top of that one. So please, please make this happen.

You want three-hour One Piece Red pod? I mean, you cannot look up anything that's happened in the 25-year history of One Piece. I would just like you to watch One Piece red and be like, why is there a stretchy boy? Why is he screaming about being the king of the pirates? I think we would have a great time. Is One Piece red related to Kieslowski's Three Colors red?

Is there any connection there? The filmmaker uh actually yes and i will tell you on our one piece red pod on ringerverse oh interesting okay good to know guys any closing thoughts on black adam dwayne the rock johnson my midlife crisis anything you want to weigh in on drop you go first. I'm just glad we got to do this together. I'm glad that we weren't alone because I felt really alone in that theater. Honestly, I had a very different theater-going experience

from y'all in that people were laughing at the bits and that made me feel even more insane. So I'm glad for the sanity check. I'm glad to be here with y'all. Oh my God, why did we do this to ourselves? But we made it. Charles, this has been years in the making. You doing bits about this movie.

Whoa, I would like to say, final, for once and all, this is not a bit, because I do believe in The Rock. And even when he lets me down, I know full well that the power has been inside of us all along. Okay? So Rock, I will be there first day in theaters.

Don't listen to Sean. Don't listen to Rob. I support you. 90% audience score on Rotten Tomatoes, baby! That's executive producer Charles Holmes for Black Adam 2. Well, thank you to our very own producer, Bobby Wagner, for his work on today's episode. Bobby did not see Black Adam, which is wonderful for him. I'm very proud of him.

I want to sincerely thank Rob and Charles for stepping up, especially Rob. Honestly, Charles was going to see this no matter what. But Rob, thank you for your service. Later this week, as I mentioned, Amanda and I will be back to deep dive on Todd Field's Tar, which I promise is not a part will be back to deep dive on Todd Fields' tar, which I promise is not a part of the DC Extended Universe. We'll see you then. you