The Big Picture - ‘Black Panther: Wakanda Forever’ Is Here!

Episode Date: November 11, 2022

The sequel to Ryan Coogler’s box office–dominating, culture-shifting, Oscar-nominated 2018 film is here. Van Lathan joins Sean and Amanda to break it all down. Hosts: Sean Fennessey and Amanda Dobbins Guest: Van Lathan Producer: Bobby Wagner Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

The time has come to get ready for the 2022 World Cup. And what better way to prepare than by revisiting the World Cup's most amazing goals? I'm Brian Phillips. I'm making a podcast about the history of the Men's World Cup, told through the stories of 22 iconic goals. The show's called 22 Goals. It's out now on the Ringer Podcast Network, and we're having so much fun. Get groceries delivered across the GTA from Real Canadian Superstore with PC Express.

Shop online for super prices and super savings. Try it today and get up to $75 in PC Optimum Points. Visit superstore.ca to get started. For anyone listening who has not yet seen the movie, we don't spoil this film for about 25 minutes of our conversation. Then after that, we start getting into the nitty gritty details of the story. So please listen all the way up to that moment and then maybe pause it and come back

after you've seen Black Panther Wakanda forever. Thanks. I'm Sean Fennessey. I'm Amanda Dobbins. And this is The Big Picture, a conversation show about returning to Wakanda, Black Panther, Wakanda Forever, Ryan Coogler's sequel to his box office dominating,

culture shifting, Oscar nominated 2018 film is here. Joining us to dive into the film is the ringers van lathan what's up ben what's up guys how goes it van is clutching an angry orchard hard cider in the middle of the afternoon on a thursday which means he's ready to podcast manda you ready to podcast i'm always ready to podcast. Okay. Arguably the most anticipated movie of the year. Coogler's back. His co-writer, Joe Robert Cole, is back for the film. Of course, tragically, Chadwick Boseman is not back for this film. And so that's one of the major challenges of this story.

First reactions. Van, what'd you think? Couldn't believe they did it. Couldn't believe that they did it. Went into the movie with not anticipation with fear with fear of i've been very open about this about the reality that i thought the character of t'challa should have been recast the reasons why i felt that should have happened i had fear i had fear not that the movie wouldn't

be good. I thought that that was, you have a lot of capable creatives. They were going to make a good movie that people liked. I had fear of having to say goodbye to Chadwick Boseman again.

I did not want to say goodbye to Chad again. Had to say goodbye to Chad once out of nowhere. Hurt. Very painful. had to say goodbye chat once out of nowhere hurt very painful and the movie had to do that there was no way around it so to have a film where we get swept up in this gigantic sort of uh struggle between these two countries these two two civilizations, these two different sort of perspectives is one thing. But doing that while having to remind everyone that we lost our hero, he's gone. And that he is almost in the movie more because he's not in the movie. Because every single scene you're thinking, what would Chad do?

What would T'Challa do? What would this do? And that's, I'm not trying to be unfair to everybody else. I was scared, but I left the movie fulfilled, you know?

So it was tough. You know? Yeah. I'm sorry to say that for me, what you identified as working is exactly what did not work for me. This actually was a pretty disappointing movie for me. And I had the opposite of what you had. I didn't have fear. I had anticipation,

not necessarily for the same reasons, but I love Ryan Coogler's movies. And I think the first Black Panther is a pretty major accomplishment inside the structure of a Marvel movie. And the whole time I was watching the movie, I felt that there was a Chadwick Boseman-shaped hole in the movie, specifically because, not necessarily just because I missed him as a performer or missed that character, though I did feel that way, but more because it felt like the movie was constantly, and we know this from behind-the-scenes reporting, contorting itself to get to the finish line without him and without that character. And

you could feel it in the structure. There's a lot of story and a lot of characters in this story. And the thing that you just identified, Van, I think is really well handled at the beginning of the movie and really well handled at the end of the movie. And there are these like hammerhead bookends on the storytelling that really work. And then in the middle, there's a lot of stuff. Amanda, what was your reaction to it? Yeah, this movie has to do a million things, but to everything Van was saying,

three very difficult things at the same time, which is one, emotionally, and just say goodbye to Chadwick Boseman, say goodbye to Chalice, acknowledge the real world and also what that means for the story. Then it's got to solve for that absence, both within the story and within the movie itself.

And then it also has to be a part of the MCU phase four. And that is just a lot to ask of any movie. And I thought that part one, as Sean said, the beginning and the very end was really moving. And then two and three didn't really work for me. Van is looking for something on his shelf. Yeah. I was about to put my Malcolm X hat on. It's around here somewhere.

Both of you guys. You're going to put us in that position? Yeah. Both of you guys have proven yourselves to be non-allies. I'll never, no, I'm just joking. You know, that's an elegant segue, though, to just explaining a little bit of kind of what the structure of the movie is about because allyship is such a huge part of the story

and one that I'm actually interested to talk about with both you guys. You know, at the beginning of this movie, Queen Raimondo, who's played by Angela Bassett, and Shuri, who's played by Letitia Raiden, and Baku, Winston Duke, and Okoye and the dora malaj like they are all basically trying to protect wakanda in the aftermath of the revelation the sort of going public of wakanda that happens at the end of the first film and also coping with t'challa's death and figuring out sort of what the line of succession should be and what the future for the nation should be. And as they pursue their future, a new struggle emerges.

A new threat. A new threat, yeah. And whether that should be a threat is an interesting line of thought because the threat comes in the form of Namor, who's a very well-known Marvel character. This character is slightly modified against what his origins are in the comic books to represent sort of more of a Mayan Mexican historical representation living in what was once known as Atlantis in the comic books, but now is a kind of a different nation altogether.

That nation is the only other place in the world where Vibranium exists. And so like the way we get into this story that we know of that we know of that's a good point um and vibranium of course the very precious metals that uh makes wakanda one of the most powerful and futuristic and um you know modern cities in the world or countries in the world and also that we didn't really know that until t'challa basically revealed it to the world um so the movie has a lot to do. It has a lot of story to tell. I think I've said on the pod before, I don't know if you remember me saying this,

but I think I screamed into the microphone once, like, where is Namor? Like, I want Namor in my Marvel movies because he is, you know, he's an authentic, this is a broad stroke, but he's kind of like a Don Draper type in the Marvel stories where he's like pure anti-hero, but he's really good at what he does.

So you can't help, but be attracted to him. Um, the movie, I think in my opinion, best serves him in a lot of ways. Um, he is the,

uh, the actor who plays him. It's really dynamic. Um, there's a lot of historical, like throat clearing origin story, but by the time he emerges as a sort of chief rival in the story it picks up for

me. Van did you have a lot of expectation around that part of the story going into this? Well Namor is a very old character and he's uh all people don't know he's one of the oldest characters in Marvel he's one of the three first characters Marvel ever had and

he has been someone who has changed over the years. But he's sort of an indicator of cool. Namor makes his story cooler. Namor does cool things. Even when those things are unsavory, guys. The Fantastic Four together, they're a family. Namor is trying to have sex with Sue Storm. Okay?

Namor is a hero, but really because he does heroic things tangentially to keeping Atlantis in the comics, Talocan, in this movie, from being attacked by people.

Everything that he does is in service to someone which seems noble but also everything he does is in service to someone which someone sometimes means that namor makes binary decisions if it's me or you it is always me because i have to protect the people of atlantis if protecting the people of Atlantis means protecting the world, then I protect the entire world. But if protecting the people of Atlantis means destroying the world, then the world must be destroyed. And we see the character go back and forth. I thought that they served Namor well in this movie. I think that one of the trickiest things about the MCU is how you adapt a character and make their motivations, their history, and their place

in your universe believable to people who've read the comics and to people who've never read them. And if you watch Namor in this movie and you've never seen Namor before, you don't know anything about Namor, you believe in the character, and that was very important that they did that. So Amanda is one of those people. Hi, Van. Lennox Mall.

That's true, but... They did not... I did not learn about Namor at Lennox Mall, so I... There wasn't a comic store at Lenox Mall, was there? I don't think so. Yeah, I don't think so either. As we sat down, we were all in the IMAX theater together,

which was lovely. I really enjoyed that part of the experience. We all saw it together. That was nice. Yeah, and it was lovely to see Van. Big pick team, yeah. That's one of the raggiest IMAX theaters. I'm not going to lie.

I've been to IMAX theaters all over LA. They got to do better. I'm not going to lie. I've been to IMAX steers all over LA. They got to do better. I'm not going to call them out, but they got to move those. They got to move the screenings back to the other place that we would go. You literally just called them out, Vin. Oh, I'm sorry. I don't like it there.

Anyway, go ahead. I'm sorry. Before the screening started, were we talking about it? Yes, because there's kind of like the holding place on the the holding image on the screen of the poster the poster uh and namor is featured prominently and sean turns to me and he's like yes so that's namor you know about namor and i said no i have i do not and sean was just like cool okay you're gonna learn a lot about namor and then i'll tell you a lot about him um i don't i i i i'm i'm i'm i'm returning not to be a total asshole here because i agree the

was like was very good and very compelling and also i think everything that you guys just said is way more interesting than what I saw in the movie. Really? Yes. And part of that is just because, so I'm a non-comics person and I'm not an MCU fan. I really liked the original Black Panther. There are certain movies that I really enjoy. There are certain movies that don't work for me. I consume them as movies and not as an extension of the comics world or as a comics consumer. So even like learning who these people are and how the movies ask me to learn who a new character is,

to learn how the character relates to the rest of the world. There's just kind of a limit to how much information I can keep in my head at any one time. And so I was just like, okay, so here's another person and here's another world, but I'm just getting reacquainted with Wakanda and this world. And I'm also trying to understand what it's going to look like

without Chadwick Boseman and T'Challa, which was the character that I spent all of the last movie investing with and understand, you know, there's just like a certain amount of learning and situation that I can do in any one movie. And beyond that, I'm just not really connecting. And I just, it was just overstuffed van. That's what it was for me. Cause I started at a deficit. So I sometimes wonder about this.

And I'll tell you why. As a comic book reader, as an avid comic book reader, I always encourage kids to read comic books because it flings your mind forward. And I know people don't think this, but it does. So i'm nine or ten years old and i'm reading x-men right and gene gray is a telekinetic well what does telekinesis means that means the ability to move things with your mind okay now why can't she do this like the explanation of the powers all of this stuff like that like it kind of science there's science right and then they keep adding more shit yeah like at first cyclops can like uh like blast things out of his eyes then you read another book and it's oh because cyclops is has his eyes have a channel to a different

dimension where that energy flows freely and it's trying to escape out of his eyes and you're like oh my god and they keep upping the ante conceptually with you till really from line to line page to page panel to panel whatever they throw at you next if from line to line, page to page, panel to panel, whatever they throw at you next, if you got to read the page again, you got to read the page again, but you accept it and you move on. I often wonder about MCU movies, like how do people get on board with the Infinity Stones? When you watch Loki, the Infinity Stones have now been rendered inert. They don't even matter anymore. but for a whole 10 year period everybody was going after them and with this movie i think that there was probably a little bit more namor in this film because there was a little bit less t'challa yeah

so so i i understand it i thought namor was by far the best part yeah of wakanda forever like by far they nailed the character in a way that i didn't think it was possible to nail him so i was really excited about it i loved the movie um i thought that this movie was better than the original which i'm getting really laid for yeah definitely i'm getting flayed for um but yeah so i get it i understand it but amanda she's gotta you guys gotta loosen up baby i don't gotta get on the back of the you gotta ride you gotta ride the unicorn amanda ride the whale in this case i'm trying ride the amanda ride the whale i have to get on the whale man i think when the whales started floating through to do whatever the whales did is when i was like

oh all right okay like he can talk to the animals either you're in or you're out well i think i was out okay but here's the thing i did not usually then we do episodes like this sometimes you're on them sometimes you're not but right amanda goes to see a Marvel movie with me and I start explaining the lore and I start getting excited and I start projecting a movie into this podcast that didn't exist. What I start projecting is my adolescence, you know, and I'm so excited and I've been so excited in the past that my adolescence runs movies and somewhere along the line in the last few years, I've kind of lost touch with that. You know, I've been increasingly disappointed with where Marvel has gone, but I was holding out hope for this one. Because like I said, I really believe in Coogler. I like the first one a lot. And then one of the things that I liked about the first one is still present in this movie, but it's just not done as well. Which is that his movies always have a big dynamic real world theme in them in a way that I don't think many Marvel movies do or if

they do they're not as clearly rendered so like I always felt like the first film this is not a radical thought by any means but the first film is very much the story of like is it better to be isolated from the outside world or is it better to pursue justice and maybe even dominance with a kind of radical almost violent Black Pantheresque, American Black Panther-esque point of view. And that Killmonger against T'Challa is the primary battle of that film, represents something that is at the heart of struggle in America and around the world for a long, long time. I thought he did it really well, personally.

Now, you can pick and choose and say, well, this fight scene was bad, or I didn't like this performance, but that was the primary driving force of the film. This film, similarly, has a theme in it between Namor and the idea of Wakanda, which is the question of allyship, especially allyship among Latinx and Black communities, right? Like that's something that is a primary aspect of this story

and is when these two communities, if they choose to come together, they can be incredibly powerful. But there are also forces in the world that are seeking to divide them. And if they let that division take place, there's a kind of chaos. And then those who attempt to divide hold power.

That's also a really, really strong idea for a movie, especially a Marvel movie. Unfortunately, this movie has like four other themes like that going on. Like grief, for example, would not have been a theme of this movie if Chadwick Boseman had not passed away, tragically. But they have to make it a core part of the story.

In fact, they have to open the movie by addressing it head on. And so what gets lost is we're like an hour and 40 minutes into the movie before I'm like, oh wow, this is actually about this. Or this is what the story originally was until they had to jerry-rig it. And then we're really deep into a story that has like 14 characters when maybe it should have had six. So I just genuinely really struggled to enjoy the movie because of all of that stuff that we're talking

about in the middle. And Van, to your point, I agree that there was probably more Namor because of the lack of Chadwick Boseman and and and that the movie needs that from like a charisma and presence perspective but at the same time it definitely felt like they had an original they had a script and then Chadwick Boseman died sadly and was no longer part of it and so they had they tried to write all of that in but they kept so much they kept more of the original script or like you know or that they just weren't willing to get rid of everything that they wanted to do and it just didn't fit together well enough for me to contain it all in my mind you look like like you, on the tip of your tongue, you have the worst insult you could possibly levy at your colleagues.

I'm ready to fight. Yeah. But you knew this was coming. I saw you. I said goodbye. I was like, I thought this was terrible and I can't wait to talk to you about it. So here's the thing. So there's a couple of things.

Number one, I love everyone. So I'm going to lovingly call you guys out. I think I'm going to call you guys out I think I'm going to call you guys out and then I'm going to agree with you then I'm going to hug let's go first thing is I think that there's

grace that people don't give comic book movies that they give to other films like did you guys see Tenet I did did you guys like Tenet? I did. Yeah. Did you guys like Tenet? I did, yeah. Now, the fact that you would sit down in Tenet, a movie that like a lot of Nolan's movies,

asks you to do so much work. You sit down and you watch Interstellar, and Nolan has partnered up with Kip Thorne, and he's asking you to understand relativity, singularity, and all of these things. Wraps it around a narrative that is sort of understandable, like human loss, suffering, parenting, but look, all of this stuff.

I think that there's a grace that we give to quote-unquote serious films or real films. I know a lot of people who loved Inception. They don't understand it. I could go on. You know what I mean? That we don't give to comic book movies that are asking a lot of us

because we don't think a lot of times that the juice is worth the squeeze. That's 100% right. But not for me. You're on the wrong podcast because I'm the Chief Nolan hater. But for me, you're totally right. And you're right that sometimes I'm like, part of me, my brain just shut off once it was just like little winged feet no well the fighting always turns it off but you know there was one thing too many which was just like comic book stuff and my brain just says no and now let me tell you something

here yeah oh i'm sorry amanda go ahead i'm sorry no i was just gonna say that is a completely true statement about me. So let me tell you about the winged feet. Yeah. Seriously. Because Namor's a mutant, and everything else that Namor can do comes from the fact that he's Atlantean. Right. The one mutant thing about Namor is that he's got the winged feet.

Right. He can fly. He can fly. He can fly. So for us, we're looking at the trailer to make sure that they winged his feet yep yeah like we're like we're like because we're thinking if you don't give namor to wing feet if you're saying hey that's a little bit too kooky that can't exist and if you don't do that then we go ah fraud i've been doing this since 1987 fraud gotta have the winged feet so

i'm saying i get this and this is this is the thing that's important about comic book movies and this discourse in all seriousness is important because what you want to make is a movie that obviously is fan service but at the same time is broad enough to so it's the it's the film's responsibility to be honest with you to try to bring the amanda dobbins is in it's it's the it's the film's responsibility to be honest with you to try to bring the amanda dobbins is in it's it's the film's responsibility to do that and it's not your fault like if you're like not a comic fan i'm not pulling that card i'm just saying some of it you just kind of gotta let go so some of it okay you're in a world yeah i know i do understand that and and i do think that there are films within the MCU, including the original Black Panther, which.

That did it for you. That do it for me. And there are reasons why. And you just made a really good point that I want to revisit when we kind of talk about Marvel writ large, which we will have to do. But this idea of is the movie or are these movies and products trying to draw the amandas in anymore because i have to well maybe they have to but i don't know whether they are and i i kind of felt that this movie was just not really for me and that's okay honestly i i mean i they don't make that many movies for Amanda, but you're allowed to have movies that are not for me,

but I do think I have noticed a change as the MCU, you know, marches along from those bigger tent, um, making it for everyone type approaches to it's name or, and does he have the winged feet because he's a mutant you know what i mean like it's just it's a little bit what you're trying to do what why are you laughing at me i just that was that was so funny because it's namor and because when you say it like that it

does sound ridiculous i'm so sorry i i just i kind of can't but here okay the one thing that i so i i forced as soon as i got a sense of the like action set pieces in the movie fairly early on i was like oh fuck man it's gonna really hate this um right right but what i tried to appeal to you with a little bit is that a lot of the characters most of the characters honestly the legacy characters in marvel mythology are based on mythology and you study the classics in school you understand greek and roman mythology and the histories there this film introduces the the concepts of mayan mythology and historic figures it's like pretty accurate to those mythologies so in that, is there any like suspension of disbelief

where you could watch it the same way you might watch Clash of the Titans or Troy, you know? Well, I don't watch Clash of the Titans. Well, maybe you should. And, okay. Quality flick. Yeah.

And then. Sam Worthington, Henry Hamlin. Not that one. The original one. Oh my God. Henry Hamlin. With Lisa Rinna's husband. Yeah, Harry Hamlin. Yeah. Harry Hamlin, yeah. Did you say Sam Worthington henry hamlin not that one the original one oh my god henry hamlin with lisa rinna's husband yeah harry hamlin yeah harry hamlin yeah did you say sam worthington i like

that one no i like the sam worthington one i like the harry hamlin one too but i like the sam worthington one man check out harry hamlin first yeah watch the harry hamlin harry hamlin's like incredibly handsome it's tight okay so do we need to we don't need to have the mythology thing no i just i just tried to i suggested that because to the extent that i know about mythology it was one because i had a book just like an illustrated children's book doler's book of greek myths which i'll give alice when she's old enough okay um so i just like learned about them and then i studied them in college as to understand building blocks for how other stories are told and kind of just like just like stanley and jack kirby that's what

they did sure but you know even there you're studying an interpretation and an evolution of these characters and i don't know if you actually filmed like real hermes you know and we're like hey look it's the you know god of mischief and he has wings on his feet or whatever like i would think that's silly you know like i said i don't watch clash of the titans so you're thinking of loki he's the god of mischief and he is in fact a character in the marvel comics films isn't that great two different things though so yeah. So, yeah, I mean, yeah. Loki is the god of mischief. You're talking about Norse mythology.

Yeah. And then when you're talking about Hermes, you're talking about Greek mythology. Greek and Roman mythology. Anyway. Okay. We don't have to get bogged down by it. But so here's the other thing.

I like this. And maybe this is a way, maybe we can talk about how the movie looks for a bit. Okay. Before we talk about that, can I address talk about how the movie looks for a bit. Yeah. Okay. But before we talk about that, can I, can I address one other point that Sean was making? Please. All right.

So also Sean, this is why I love Sean because Sean sees the big picture. I never want. Ooh. Yeah, that's right. It's the name of the show. God damn it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. This is the second pod this week where you turned and you looked at me and you said, this is why I love Sean. And I i just felt i felt really good about it it's true i never once thought that this movie was about black and latin people coming together what really never so you like it even more now well i mean yeah you know i love my my brown brothers and sisters you know what i mean is my reading wrong i'm not saying that at all i'm just saying that i never thought that that was like a thing i thought that uh that could be and maybe everybody's gonna be like vance but what i looked at was talocan and namor being the uh the catalyst that was either going to, Wakanda lost its king.

And in losing its king, what it had to do throughout the entire movie was let the world know that it hadn't lost its nerve, that it was still the same place, that it still had the same strength, that it still had the same resolve. But that was a lie.

Like inside the country, there was a crisis happening. Wakanda was becoming cold. Wakanda was becoming desperate. They didn't know there was no leader. There was no protector. There was no sense of safety. The country had been safe it had been something that uh was untouchable but now people were trying to attack namor set foot on wakandan soil they attacked a wakandan outreach center there was nobody to take up the mantle of the black panther to make everyone feel like they were together and they were just losing losing losing i think what sure shuri's arc in the movie at the end was to put the safety and the spiritual health of her country first over her vengeance that's what a ruler and a protector does and to get to that point you had seen a lot of things you had seen the queen die

you had seen mbaku change mbaku at the beginning of the movie is like we got killed a fish man then he realizes that hey like in this situation an act of war is not what we need we need to think about the people we need to get back we need to be whole again and so i think the movie was asking a question was whether or not this world whether or not this country whether or not this group that we had sort of uh fell in with in the first movie, whether it could be whole again without Chadwick Boseman. I think for me, that was the driving force. Can we be when she goes to the ancestral plane? We know why she didn't see Chad.

Right. She saw Killmonger. This is a conversation that Amanda and I had yesterday. Yeah, I would love for you to... No, no, no, no, no. My question to you is why? How and why? She saw him because...

So when you go to the ancestral plane, you're answering a question. So when Chad went to the... When Black Panther went to the ancestral when when um when uh when black panther went to the ancestral plane he saw his father because he had questions from his father about why his father had killed his brother why his father who he thought was the seat of nobility represented this long line and he thought everybody was together and and and and that being wakandan was the top thing that it was the number one thing there was this sense of

nationalism and pride from ancestors but more than anything they took care of one another his dad his dad killed his brother so he's like how how could you kill your brother an orphan this child in america when we're all supposed to be fighting together and we're supposed to be this one thing and everything else is supposed to be, like, you're a hypocrite. So he had to work that out with his dad. Shuri did not want to be the Black Panther to protect Wakanda. She wanted to be the Black Panther to kill the man that killed her mother. That's the exact same reason Killmonger wanted it. Killmonger wanted to be the Black Panther for revenge.

Rage and revenge. Yes. Rage and revenge. So when she got to the ancestral plane, she manifested what her emotions were telling her. And then at the end, she had to learn how to be a ruler. And she still wasn't the ruler of Wakanda. So when I looked at all of these things, I think the framework of the movie in addressing like what this world is now that he is gone. I think I bought into it. Yeah, there's the sausage, bacon and egg, a crispy seasoned chicken one. Mmm, a spicy and egg worth the detour.

They sound amazing. Bet they taste amazing too. Wish I had a mouth. Take your morning into a delicious new direction with McDonald's new breakfast wraps. Add a small premium roast coffee for a dollar plus tax at participating McDonald's restaurants. Ba-da-ba-ba-ba. The movie is this interesting object of creativity because you can feel where changes are made

and you can feel what was in the original intent. That's an example of a new addition because of Chad's loss that I think is effective, that like leads us to a path where we get to the end of the movie and we feel really satisfied emotionally by one character's arc. But then there are all these other decisions

i would love to know for example whether the um and we're sort of fully in spoiler territory at this point but whether the ironheart character really riri williams was always a part of this story because she's a you know she's played by dominique th Uh-huh. She's sort of the plot engine in some ways. She plays a... A little bit. A kind of young genius developer, you know, sort of like a product inventor who creates the first ever vibranium detector and that sort of leads the Wakandans

and Namor and the Antolicon to her. There's a sort of quest to capture her. And then the movie also simultaneously kind of becomes like a backdoor pilot for the Ironheart TV show. And when that story started playing out, I was like, man, I just don't want this in this movie. And it's nothing against the actress. It's nothing against that character. It's just like, this movie already has to do so much. And this doesn't even seem like a good way to introduce us to who this person is supposed to be. And it felt very, it felt candidly like a sinister, like Kevin Feige looming over the proceeding being like, we got to get Ironheart in here, guys. Don't forget, we got to get.

Now, that may not be the case. Coogler may love that character. That may have always been the intention. But watching it, I was like, this is a, even the tone of that character. I was like, this has nothing to do with any of the grief or any of the sort of like forlorn division between communities concepts of the film. And so it really lost me.

And then by the time you get to the end of the movie and you see Ironheart in action, I'm like, that character doesn't even look like it belongs in this world. So I really tripped on that in a way that like

held me back from enjoying even the more fun action set pieces of the movie. What did you think? So not perfectly executed. We set pieces of the movie. What did you think? So, not perfectly executed. Weaker part of the movie. But it's a comic. So, what you're talking about right now

is essentially how Black Panther was introduced to the MCU. That's true. He comes in in Captain America Civil War. And this is kind of a thing with the MCU. The more movies you get, you would think the more time that you'd have but it's actually the the the the less time less time that you have right because people want stories they want them flushed out black panther to me was portrayed better in civil war than he was in the original black panther movie i gotta be honest with you

so so but he's he's in that movie that becomes his origin they've done this before black widow makes her appearance her first appearance in uh iron man 2 blah blah that's something that either you nail or you don't and this movie didn't quite nail it i think that that has more to do with people being uninitiated to the characters than it has to do with the characters themselves. Riri Williams is a relatively new character, even for comic book readers. So it's not like you started watching Marvel movies for a lot of people and you're like, when are they going to bring Riri Williams in? Now, there are people who think that, but not as many as people who thought, when are they going to bring Riri Williams in? Now, there are people who think that, but not as many as people who thought, when are they going to bring Black Panther in?

When are we going to get to see this character? When are we going to get to see that character? So in order to make us go, hey, this addition to this film with this type of weight works, they'd have had to have hit a grand slam, and they didn't. That's fair to say.

This is the second time in a row, though, because we just had this with America Chavez in Doctor Strange and the Multiverse of Madness. It's going to happen more, Sean, because like people don't know these characters

as much. So like... But there's a similarity to this story which is like puckish teenager with extraordinary powers who we don't really

have a relationship with beyond whatever this movie is telling us the person is. And I think that that actually raises that very interesting conundrum that Amanda cited, which is like, is this a mainstream movie that will draw in a very casual moviegoer and allow it to become a $1 billion movie?

Or is the storytelling increasingly deepening its bench and thus potentially alienating the common moviegoer? Now, if that is the case, that's actually okay. That's certainly up to Marvel to pursue it however they choose. But I think that it is starting to alienate people a little bit and not just the Amandas who are like, this isn't generally for me in the first place. I don't know if that's true or not. This was the first time in a while though, where I was like, whoa, this feels super cynical to me to put a character like this in this movie. Even though everything you said is true

and you're right that they consistently have done this as a storytelling gambit, there was already just so much work that this movie had to do. And it's two hours and 41 minutes for a reason because they're trying to do too much. The previous Black Panther movie was like two hours and 12 minutes.

So I don't know. Maybe I'm being too hard on it in that respect, but that's part of why I just felt kind of... The pacing just felt stuck in the mud because they're trying to do so many things. I know. I know you didn't agree. No, no, no. I mean, look, I knew that people would.

I knew that people would feel this way to a degree. I think one reason why the pacing, another reason why the pacing feels stuck in the mud is because. I love the movie, but parts in the movie are a drag it's just a drag to go into a film and i don't want to like get all emotional and like ruin the podcast but like it's just a drag to go in the movie and to watch him die again and then to go into that montage and then just that it's just a drag. And for me, it took a little while to get me back into the,

okay, like, so how are you supposed to have fun? Yeah. After that. You know what I mean? You know what I mean? It's just like, and it's,

and it's, by the way, like, he didn't die on camera. Like, he died like for real. And you're, you're watching a movie

and you're like, okay, moving me up, moving me, moving me, moving me up moving me moving me moving me moving me moving me moving me and i'm watching the film and i'm thinking damn i wonder how angela bassett walks out and she tells uh queen ramunda walks out she tells sure he's like your brothers with the ancestors i'm like is she really crying like that's what i'm thinking in my mind yeah i'm like i'm like is she crying for real like when i'm looking at shuri i'm like like is are these real tears like what's really happening here so i just think the movie had a big tat i i really loved it i think the movie had a

big task but i just think it i mean it's not a fun movie to watch it's like you know what i mean it's like it's not it's not a lot of, and for a lot of people that would go to comic book movies, they would go, look, if the winged fish man is going to throw me off, at least I can have some fun.

Right? Yeah. And with this movie, the stakes are always so high and it's always so weighty and it's always grounded that it's like, it might not be that

much fun for casual moviegoers did you know yes though i wouldn't have identified i think that's a great point man um i i found the opening very moving um like that that doesn't mean that it was easy or fun to watch you're right um but I found it was like the most effective, at least. I quite like the ending, too. And I really like the ending, which I'd love to talk to you about, Van, because I love the ending. And in some ways, it's just like undercuts the entire movie. And it's like, what if we didn't do any of that? What if you'd just done this instead? And I and i was like well you would have had me um but i i don't think that i was kind of

self-aware enough to to recognize that it probably that opening did does sort of just change the my mood as well as i'm watching it and probably makes me even less likely to buy into winged fish man even though I was like probably not super interested in winged fish man you know like speaking of mythology another thing they do is so they do like the the attack the first attack is sort of a the sirens like it's an audio attack. Yeah. Lake Bell. Lake Bell. All right.

Yeah. I have her in my notes. Yes. I assume we share a passion for Lake Bell, Van. Yes. Yeah. Very important lady. Tough break for her.

But, you know, that is even, well, just is. I like getting to see her. I hope she got a nice paycheck and enjoys the city of Atlanta as I do I think I know what happened there go ahead what happened there so I think something was changed

with this movie not to interject I think there was a lot of speculation that there was going to be in this film an ulterior motive run by a much bigger villain behind all of this. That Lake Bell's character

was working on behalf of a much bigger villain and in a cut scene you are going to see that that villain was responsible for the attack at the outreach center and for trying to find the

vibranium because that villain wanted the vibranium for some reason the lake bell character was going to survive and then you would see that this character would talk to this villain in a cut scene at the end of the movie i think they they made a decision at the 11th hour 12th hour really to do away with that. And therefore you have a really recognizable actress who's been working for a very long time, shows up and gets killed in one scene and you're like, why was she in this?

So I think that's what happened there. And I think that's what most comic book people who have unfortunately followed leaks and read all kinds of stuff kind of get from that. This might not be meaningful to you, but to me, that's actually kind of a failure of the last few films, too, is that I just still don't really know where we are in this story. Like, I don't really and I don't want to jump ahead too far, but like I've seen all the phase four films and TV shows. I'm up on it. I don't know what the fuck.

I mean, I know what they're leading to because I read the trades and I watched in 23, but I'm like, and I don't read the. Well, I know on a large level, but not in the same way that I think. Yeah, they very coherently

set us up for Thanos, right? Yeah, for sure. And by the end of phase one, you were like, all right, I know where we're going. And in the movie, they put them in the movie. Yes, that was nice of them.

They chose not to put whoever you're talking about in this movie for reasons that I don't totally understand. Nevertheless, continue with what we're going. They put him in the movie. Yes, that was nice of them. They chose not to put whoever you're talking about in this movie for reasons that I don't totally understand. Nevertheless, continue with what you're saying. Well, I was just saying,

so even the setup, that's a cool idea. I was like, ooh, sirens, like audio attack. That's interesting. I've never seen that before. I can buy into

a certain amount of this fun or silliness, whatever you want to call it, like this other world. But then I guess it was a combination of what Van pointed out of like, you're not really there emotionally at that moment. And then also, I just think they're that set piece and most of the set pieces are really poorly executed and they look bad. And that is another way where it just like you want me to buy in. You got to try a little harder for me to like want to watch this. And I just thought technically it and of on par with the recent action in the MCU movies, which is to say not very good.

Now, I think the biggest criticism that Black Panther got, I know not necessarily from you, Van, but I thought was that largely it was this very sophisticated, stylish, fun movie that had some kind of lame CGI fights in it, particularly the kind of final showdown. The final showdown, yeah, between Killmonger and Black Panther, yeah. It just kind of looked like a video game

a little bit. And this movie feels like at times kind of doubles down on that, which is a really weird choice to do like a lot of flying robots and a big fight on an aircraft carrier that just looks like super fake. And I'm kind of confused why that just doesn't, maybe I'm just giving him too much credit, why that just doesn't maybe i'm just giving him

too much credit but that just doesn't seem like something ryan coogler wants in his movie maybe i'm wrong maybe he wants to do a big action set piece like that but it's like i guarantee you we're gonna see avatar in a couple weeks and it's gonna look a thousand times better i couldn't not than the fights avatar during this Well, that's not fair, guys. Isn't it though? I mean, it's an underwater saga from the Disney Corporation. Well, it's totally different when,

you know, I mean, I mean, if we're in the outlook, I don't know why we got to think about Avatar as Black Panther. Well, I know, but I couldn't help it. It puts it in your mind. They're blue? Because they're blue people?

Well, that was a factor. Avatar, The Way of Water, and I know that's another three-plus-hour movie about, frankly, silliness that I'm going to have to buy into. So my awareness is there. Open your heart, for Christ's sake, for Big Jim. I liked the original Avatar. I did. I don't. Yay or nay on Avatar, Van? The first one. I liked it. I liked it, too. so my my awareness is there for christ's sake for big jim i liked the original avatar i did um i don't yeah you're a neon avatar man the first one i liked it i liked it too yeah great

but that that emotion how you feel right now just hold on to that and because that's what it's like to be me all the time on this podcast you know I mean? Like the way that you were like, I liked it. You know, I could just tell. But so here's the thing. I'm, I love movies, right? So do I. Of course,

I know you guys love movies. I think Sean likes movies. I'm not sure. How dare you? I am the world's loudest and most annoying advocate for movies. He loves movies.

I'm joking. What I'm saying is, Avatar, like i'm from the country right so i go into avatar and i just fall into wonderment i'm like oh yeah unobtainium yeah you know what i mean like i'm like i'm like oh the navi i'm like oh and i'm like, ooh, the Na'vi. I'm like, ooh. And I'm like, before you know it, I'm like, okay, cool. All right, we're fighting. The guy's got a big mech suit on with a big knife.

And he's, you know what I mean? And he's fighting against Jacob Sully. And we're doing the whole thing. And I'm like, all right, I'm here with you. So look, and then James Cameron is just a fucking fantastic director i i look if i don't think i isn't black panther and marvel as powerful in the culture as a james cameron yeah sure sure sure it it is it's but it's it's powerful but i think you know one movie this guy's working 13 years on it. Yeah,

that's true. You know what I mean? And that movie is like, this guy who's this directing deity, right? For, for,

decided to forego his entire career for one franchise. Yeah, it'll probably look better than Black Panther did. Is that too much to ask as a film fan, Van? That everyone just give up their lives for 13 years

to make one good film? I was in my 20s the last time he dropped one of these movies. I'm 42, alright? So yeah, it'll probably look better. And I get what you guys are saying because everybody was going to think that. People are like like are they blue in the comics yeah they're blue in the comics they're you know atlanteans but but no um i i think that uh even in the first

movie though a lot of people's their criticisms were some of the fight scenes yeah like in the movie and there's a very you know what the russos do for the mcu it's not easy to do that right and and just talking about this and they're they're experts at doing they're better at that yes they're better at that and with the other movies it's kind of like i'm not gonna say that's not true it's buyer beware with some of this other stuff you know what i mean it's touch and go with how they're able to execute it and some you know chloe zow is a fantastic film director. Do not get me wrong.

You know what I mean? Frances wandered in a movie for all of this time and I was transfixed. But that doesn't mean that a big fight between celestial beings is going to be her cup of tea. Yeah. You feel me? So I get that. That's a fair criticism for sure. And I think the other issue is that just because... What's the new world called?

It's not Atlantis. Talocan. Talocan. Talocan. Is an underwater kingdom. You're just spending more time in animated underwater land along with all of the CGI'd fights. So it's just kind of time spent and you

didn't like the telecon scene i liked a couple of them but i i really just i prefer natural light actually like the flashback to the origin yeah telecon i didn't love being in telecon unfortunately i love being in oh my god they're playing a little song. And it's the... You guys, hashtag wonderment. It's the wonderment. They got their own sports in Tullocon. They're playing, you know what I mean?

They're throwing a ball through a circle of... Like the Jets. They're throwing a ball through a circle of some sort. I'll tell you something amanda yes i'm of the opinion that if the talocan scene doesn't work for you in this movie it's impossible to like the movie i i agree with that and i think that was sort of sort of the issue and some of that is personal preference and some of that is i think just the division of time and you spend so much time in that animated world as opposed to in

you know i i find the production design and the costume design in black panther and in this movie um in wakanda to be like the electrifying, wonderful part of this movie. Like I did say to you that I think Ruth Carter should win another Oscar, even though I didn't really like this movie. But I don't know. I just, if you can't buy into that, then you don't buy into the rest of it.

And I couldn't quite buy into it. One thing, so I rewatched the first film and I'm very high on the first movie um i know you're not van i know you're probably somewhere less enthusiastic than i am but you still liked it the first movie in part because of the ruth carter costume design had a beachler um production design if it's largely in one place and you're existing inside of Wakanda, which has this very clearly Afrofuturist-inspired series of looks. And it never looks like...

You don't have to shift your mental visual palette ever. In this movie, we're in so many places. That ship at night. Riri's dorm room. Tolokan. Wakanda. Everett Ross's jogging trip his kitchen

the movie's just all over the place and so you never get what ultimately feels like a coherent visual style which is something I've never said

about another Coogler movie every Coogler movie it's like we are in a place you have a really strong sense of place probably no more

than Black Panther which just created an entire country out of whole cloth and did so pretty magnificently to the point where like they fucking

nominated a Marvel movie for best picture that's how good a job he did at that and I think that's just one more thing and it contributes

to the larger criticism I have which is just like it's just so much stuff like Julie Louis-Dreyfus and Everett Ross character like that's a whole other plot line that they're trying to get us going with the thunderbolts and whatever they're trying to set up

there and yeah i couldn't get all this other stuff out of my head when i was watching it and focus on say whatever leticia wright is trying to do to further the Shuri story and to get us invested in her. Or, you know, for a time, get invested in Queen Ramonda and Angela Bassett, who, like, has a lot of phone conversations with characters and other, like, storytelling crutch where you're like,

so these guys are not available on the same day? Like, why are they using the Wakandan bracelet to talk to each other? It's just, like, hacky comic book movie stuff where I was like, man, I thought we were above this with this specific franchise. And we're not. comic book movie stuff where I was like, man, I thought we were above this with this specific franchise and we're not.

And that's, I was bummed, man. And there were like eight more people that you didn't mention. Like Michaela Cole is in this movie except she's like not really.

It was about seven minutes, you know, and she looked beautiful and has charisma but it's just, there's nothing to do. It just, there's a lot going on.

Can I say one more thing, Ben, before I let you, uh, retort and call me a bad ally? Um, I, when I rewatched the first one,

I really loved the casino fight. I think that's like a really great action set piece. Um, maybe the only great action set piece in that movie. And, uh, Okoye is like amazing in that scene and the scene is sort of built around her

and her dynamism and her physicality. We get a couple of moments like that in the second movie but nothing that even came close to being as exciting for me personally so I just got depressed when I watched it last night. So Okoye fights with I thought one of the best

parts of the movie was the redefinition, who in the comic books is an enemy of Namor. He's also an Atlantean who believes that he should be ruling Atlantis. And he's in this film and he has a fight with Okoye after they try to

rescue Riri from her dorm room and they fight and he gives her the Bane bruce wayne treatment i thought he was gonna start talking about you think darkness is your ally he was kicking her down and i thought that those scenes like that really worked for me because the wakandans have been the biggest badasses on earth and marvel has gone i mean even the movie begins with shuri not being able to save her brother's life she cured like ross's paralysis in like a half hour in the first movie so there's a redefinition of wakanda that happens in this movie that i think is very

important it shows how how frail and how vulnerable the kingdom is and so i thought that there were things that worked i thought that um the initial attack on wakanda when they flooded out the entire country was breathtaking the final fight i've watched enough marvel movies to give them a pass on final fights come on what are we talking about i gotta be honest with you this is the visual climax of the film. They're the Russell Westbrook of Final Fights. Okay. Shooting a low percentage.

Yes, they are. Final Fight. Marvel has notorious third act problems. Some of the Final Fights are fantastic. Some of them are eh. Obviously, Infinity War, Endgame, Winter Soldier, Civil War. All of these are great. You look at some of the other ones, maybe they don't work as well.

Spider-Man No Way Home, the whole movie is for the final fight. So for the final fight here, I thought what happened on the boat was less important than the intimate final battle that we got between Namor and Shuri which i really really really enjoy just to see her and him mano and mano now being a comic book fan watching it in my mind am i thinking this movie's an all-timer if it's t'challa fighting her and fighting him right there that's not to be sexist guys has nothing to do with that has to do with the fact that the weight of the ruler of the country two rulers of the war between kings it's just a different scene yeah you know i'm saying it's just a different scene at that point so i understand all you guys's criticisms and look i knew that i knew that these were going to be criticisms of the movie because it's not as easy a movie to enjoy

as the first one and it's got some struggles and it wasn't going to work for everyone i i joke with you guys but i think everything that you're saying is you know they're going to be valid criticisms of film and we're seeing a little bit more of this but for me personally um i was really moved and i really enjoyed it and they managed to cast the cutest kid ever to be cast in a movie ever can we at least agree on the kid it was amazing well so i there are two things that really did work for me right the first was and i totally can't remember the context of this at this point which you know really i guess really says everything about my thoughts on the movie but there is at some climactic moment when uh shuri is a is about

to not do something as it turns out and they are tying kind of shuri's journey and namor's journey and really the journey to both of their mothers and it's about like a 90 second to two minute sort of like flashback emotional whatever which like totally worked on me and I found like it like really walloped me um so I thought that was great and to your point van not necessarily fun but like emotional and you know obviously moms but then also this the the ending and that small child who is the cutest kid ever but so like why did we do everything that we just did if that's going to be the ending of the movie you know what i mean what do you mean what do you mean no i don't what you mean why did we do the

everything that happened in wakanda forever and then that was the ending like we could have just couldn't have that been the starting point of the movie why didn't they make that the movie why didn't they make that little kid part of the movie i had the same thought that scene is great it's also like lupita and yango doesn't get a ton to do in the movie right she's barely in it and she's like a she's a superpower unto herself putting her in your movie and then you get this scene where you've got Shuri's arc is completed, and she sits down on the beach. Are they in Haiti when she sits down on the beach?

She's in Haiti. They're in Haiti, right. And they introduce this kid who I agree is like, he's the vibranium of child actors. He's great. And two powerful, charismatic actors, and you're like, oh, here's our king. Yeah.

King T'Challa's back. Right. Couldn't it have been King T'Challa? Yeah. couldn't you have been king t'challa at the beginning yeah it's a different movie it's a it's a it's a teen disney movie no it's like it's nothing it's a we how are we gonna to, we can't go to his. So I thought the movie did that perfectly. We can't go to his story until we've completed everybody else's. So we can't move.

So the kid, so we can't go to his story until everybody was in the orbit. Wakanda is a monarchy, right? It's a monarchy. So like the king died. So we have to know, in my opinion at least, how the death of the king, the guy who really had just, think about this real quick.

Yeah. So think timeline wise here. So T'Challa, Black Panther starts right after Civil War ends. So Civil War, the whole movie plays, his father dies in Civil War. He's going back home. Like the movie, he's going back home to be coronated after his father has passed away. So T'Challa, the journey of the original Black Panther movie is him like earning the mantle of king.

Not through ritual combat, but through conflict, through someone trying to come and take it from him. It's of him earning it, not just being given to him. He has to earn it several times. He has to earn it against Jidaka, Killmonger. He has to earn it against M'Baku, right? So that's what the movie is about. So you get there and we take all of that time to build that character.

All of that time for him to build alliances in Wakanda, for him to build an alliance with Jabari, for him to gain the in Wakanda for him to build an alliance with the Jabari for him to gain uh the uh the respect of the council all of that stuff and then all of that happens the blip happens he's gone for a while he comes back then he dies so in my mind I'm thinking that is a seismic disruption to that entire community that's like a seismic disruption to that entire community. That's like a seismic disruption to them. Like they are nerfed out. And I want to see how they dealt with that before we get to the kid.

There was still a lot of other loose ends to tie up. And I thought that now that there's some semblance of normalcy there we can start talking about the future of wakanda but it would have been a different difficult to talk about the future of wakanda without sort of dealing with the present of it i think you're right i think that that the kid and the in credit is the ending to a different movie than the one that I saw. Let's just say the actor's name is Divine Love Kanadu's son, which is one of the greatest names I've ever heard in my life. But Van, the movie that you just outlined of tying up all of the loose ends in Wakanda

is like one undercooked third of this movie. Well, I'll also say, I kind of hate criticism that's like, here's a better version of your movie because I don't know how to make a better movie than Ryan Coogler. But a way you could have told this story in my mind is, T'Challa dies.

It's tragic. Wakanda is in a state of uncertainty. Toussaint, a.k.a. T'Challa Jr., comes to Wakanda. And then Shuri feels a calling to become Black Panther in the absence of her brother. And then there is a kind of aunt-nephew inherent conflict. And then as that is sorting itself out and Wakanda is trying to determine its leadership going forward, Namor arrives. And there is a threat upon the threat. And that there is your conflict. As opposed to whatever's happening with Ironheart and whatever's

happening with the US intervention in Wakanda and Atlantis. Focus the story on Wakanda. Keep us there. But there is an outside force that is threatening it. and that's like I mean candidly it's a kind of story that Game of Thrones

has told expertly in the past maybe not House of the Dragon but Game of Thrones was very good at posing who should be the heir maybe it's not

a better movie maybe it's not but I had a very similar feeling to Amanda which is when we got to that story beat I was like this is something

that I'm emotionally attached to this is this is literally T''m emotionally attached to. This is literally T'Challa's legacy. And if you want to keep that in my mind... The whole country is T'Challa's legacy. Perhaps. Then let us spend more time there.

We didn't spend enough time there. The Black Panther is T'Challa's legacy. The moment she becomes the Black Panther... You guys like that the moment she becomes a black panther she's fulfilled the birthright of her family think about it she lost everyone they're like the kennedys yeah i like that idea yeah she lost everyone and so she has to you know what i mean that was a that was a very strong concept that again i think in a narrower come on amanda sisters are doing it for themselves sure it's sure time we don't need to bring in the little guy just yet you've identified

that it like her becoming black panther is like a complicated and not entirely jubilant thing within the world of this movie or the world at large because obviously she's you know replacing chadwick boseman because of tragic circumstances but in our screening when that happened the there was not a rush of energy in that room. And I thought that was interesting. I think I saw it twice. Yeah. I think in both screenings there was... How about this?

I think in both screenings there was an uncertainty. Nah, let me be all the way real. I think that Letitia Wright is a fantastic performer. She's great. Had her on Higher Learning. Fantastic. I do think that

she's just not quite there yet in terms of that. That was a lot to ask her to do and she did a great job. But Chad had been building up to play that role for a long time yeah and he was he was this is a huge challenge of the movie he was born to play it you know what i mean and so it's an impossible role to fill and like an incredibly difficult thing to ask anyone to do and i agree with you that it's just not it doesn't totally gel yeah

yeah but let me tell you something right now I'm gonna rank movies all time all the greatest movies of all time or MC top five movies ever okay this I uh you sure you don't want to make this another episode no number five Raising Arizona okay okay great good pick

really good number four Madhouse with John Lquette okay keep going number three the godfather okay yeah number two the godfather two number one black panther wakanda forever you've been you've been very generous with your time today. Um, love you guys. Can I last question for you before you go? Sure. Um, watch madhouse by the way, with John Leroy.

Okay. It's okay. I'm mad that you didn't put working girl on that list since we're on the podcast together. Whoa. You love that. You love that movie. It's been,

that's talked about this before. It's a, it's an all timetime spiritual favor for both the OG shuri yeah the original that's the original black panther is right there you're you don't have to tell

me that weird Alec Baldwin popping in popping out literally yeah but go ahead I'm sorry go ahead you feel good about where Marvel's going no of course not is there a part of you that is like endgame was actually was the crowning

achievement and then it's kind of you know fan servicey and a little bit too scattered for its own good at the moment um yeah so look what you're looking at i think well i think we can all agree whether or not you think the movies are all winners or whether or not you think that they're breaking some kind of new creative ground or not that what the movies are all winners or whether or not you think that they're breaking some kind of new creative ground or not that what they've been able to do as a filmmaking experiment is remarkable.

It's remarkable. And I think we're getting to a very interesting point with the MCU to where commerce and filmmaking are intersecting in a very fascinating way. Because comic books are all about the writers. A guy does a run of a comic book, a lady does a run of a comic book,

and that redefines the character or whatever. Films, you just can't give that. In something like this they're almost these huge financial entities into in and of themselves and you can't be free willing and as daring with them as you want the mcu was able to get away with it because it gave you just enough style and an intertwined story but now it seems like the movies don't have any heartbeat. There's no snap. Some of these films are almost parodies of themselves.

Like, to be honest with you, Thor Love and Thunder is like a spoof of Thor Ragnarok. Yeah. Almost intentionally, and like, I don't know if Marvel knew it when they were doing it, but Taika did know it. Well, he didn't make a very good movie. I agree. Yeah, so, you know what I mean? were doing it but taika did know it uh well he didn't make a very good movie so i agree yeah so so you know what i mean like it's like it's like we to amanda's point i'm i'm a big child i think we all know this at the ringer by this point so i'm here for the joke but don't rub it in my face

you know what i mean like make like like let's try a little bit. And sometimes less is more, but they can't do less. It's impossible to do less. Captain America Winter Soldier was less. That movie is as sleek and sexy of a comic book spy thriller as you're going to get. It's impossible to make that movie now. It's just too much on the audience. They want to see all the cameos. They want to see all the stuff. It has to be make that movie now. There's just too much on the audience. They want to see all the cameos. They want to see all the stuff.

It has to be a joke per second. It's almost now they're being crushed. And like the good stuff, like Werewolf by Night, which was fantastic. You got to stick that on Disney Plus somewhere. I know. Because you don't know how the audience is going to relate to it. I did say that to Amanda. I was like, I wish that there was just more like this.

That was just like more like reading an issue of a comic book and i think that would be well served by that but you're right that there is a economic imperative any closing thoughts on wakanda forever anything you want to share before we wrap with van so i just wanted to ask a question this is the end of phase four it is what what's up next am i gonna like it no so what's up next so what's up next the the so the next the next movie is ant-man quantum mania right right right but jonathan majors is going to be in that right because they're going to bring in the guy from the kang is that kang the conqueror there you go and then they just they're going to restart everything right So we just multiverse it out? We're going to multiverse it out. But Amanda, I'm going to hit you up with some back issues.

Okay. You're about to be Amanda back issue Dobby. Okay, great. And we're going to get on the Zoom once a week. I'm telling you. We should sell tickets to this. This is a good video. Thanks for the ringer.

Next summer, Amanda's going gonna be coming here talking about squirrel girl okay all kinds of i'm gonna i'm gonna take you i'm gonna make you a comic book x i'm gonna get rob from comic explain eric voss new rock stars all of my nerd partners together okay you gotta really i need your buy-in okay i need your buy-in from quantum you think squirrel girl is gonna make that happen you would love Squirrel Girl you have Squirrel Girl energy what about that you have Squirrel Girl

oh my god you would love Squirrel Girl you absolutely do yeah I'm gonna google this later and be really insulted probably yeah

uh well this was fun as always Van thank you so much love you guys higher learning ringer verse appreciate you Amanda thank you thanks to our producer Bobby Wagner for his work on today's episode this was fun as always van. Thank you so much. Higher learning ringer verse. Appreciate you,

Amanda. Thank you. Thanks to our producer, Bobby Wagner for his work on today's episode. Next week, movie draft is back. 1997. Be there.

Be square. Thank you.