The Big Picture - ‘Booksmart’ Bombed. Why Couldn't the Internet Save It? Plus, the Oscar Favorites at the Cannes Film Festival | The Big Picture

Episode Date: May 29, 2019

The discourse around ‘Booksmart’ blew up on Twitter over the long weekend, but the film still disappointed at the box office. What, if anything, is there to make of the reaction (1:15)? Then we discuss the breakout movies from the Cannes Film Festival, the premiere of Quentin Tarantino's 'Once Upon a Time in Hollywood,' and early Oscar favorites (25:41). Hosts: Sean Fennessey and Amanda Dobbins Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Welcome to the Ringer Podcast Network. I'm Liz Kelley. Fresh off of Talk the Thrones, the Ringer is introducing a new live Twitter aftershow covering season two of HBO's Big Little Lies. Immediately after each episode, the Ringer's Amanda Dobbins and ESPN's Mina Kimes will be going live to give their initial reactions and break down everything we saw in the episode. And to kick us off, there will be a special season two preview airing on Friday, June 7th at 12 p.m. Pacific. So join Amanda and Mina for Big Little Live every Sunday on Twitter. I'm Sean Fennessey. And I'm Amanda Dobbins. And this is The Big Picture, a conversation show about movies. There's so much happening in movies and yet nothing at all happening in movies.

Today will be a bit of a hodgepodge episode. We've got a lot of topics on deck. Among them, the results of the Cannes Film Festival, which I think gave us a little bit of a preview into the Oscars 2019-2020 race. We'll talk a little bit about the newly arriving Running with Beto documentary on HBO, along with a bunch of other political documentaries that debuted earlier this year at Sundance. We'll talk about one of our favorite movies of the year, which also premiered at Sundance, The Souvenir. But we're going to start with box office and the good and the bad of the box office. Last week on the show, Amanda, you and I talked at great length about two movies. On Tuesday, we talked about Booksmart. And then on Friday, we talked about Aladdin.

Aladdin made a truckload of money. Yes. Booksmart made very little cash. I think we forecast this on the show, as I recall. I think we were on the money. We knew what was happening here. Yeah. How did you feel about the fact that we were so right about the fact that people are not going to show out in movie theaters to see teen comedies, but they are going to show out to see Will Smith as a giant blue genie in a movie that they already saw 27 years ago? So how I felt about that fact is very different than how I felt about the discourse around that fact. Well, we should talk about both. Yeah, but let's just start with the fact that Aladdin made more money than Booksmart considerably more money by a factor of 20 but duh we knew that and it would be very strange if that had not happened

and I think our concerns our anxiety about how Booksmart would perform like in a wide release on Memorial Day weekend against Aladdin, against John Wick, against Endgame, was borne out. Of course, yeah. There was never a doubt in this respect, yeah. And I suppose it's disappointing in the sense that you like to see things that you like do well. You and I really enjoyed Booksmart. We saw it together at South by Southwest. Had a great time. I saw it again this weekend with my husband in the theater. Had a lovely time. Very rewatchable movie. So you contributed to the box office. I did. Mostly because it was raining in California. And what are you going to do? But I like it. I also don't think that this This means that cinema or feminism are dying. And I think it means that some people who make movie distribution decisions screwed up.

And probably we should talk about that some more. They may be dying. Yeah, but the idea that this means that no one will go see. Well, we should talk about what movies get made and don't get made about box office. Because even that, that is complicated. But, you know, there are too many hills to die on. And this isn't one. It's disappointing, but it's also kind of expected. And we'll all move on.

Yeah, comparing Aladdin and Booksmart is a false binary. They're not even really the same medium. You know, it's like comparing a magazine and a novel. Like they don't, not because one is heavier, weightier, or more expensive than the other, but just because what they're trying to accomplish is just extraordinarily different. Aladdin's got a leg up in every single respect. It's got more money. It's got more name recognition.

It's from a bigger studio. It's got bigger stars. It's got bigger everything. So those two things aren't bound to each other. But a movie like Booksmart having an encouraging release is meaningful. It's never going to beat Aladdin, but it making 15 million or 17 million or 25 million at the box office, getting a little bit of phenomenon speed going would be a big deal because that would encourage more people to cast young women in

movies. It would be helpful to get more female filmmakers making studio comedies. It would be helpful to make Beanie Feldstein more of a movie star. It'd be helpful to do a lot of things that I think largely we think would be good for the movie industry. There's so many mitigating factors though.

Annapurna slash MGM, which released the movie, has had a pretty complicated history of releasing movies. We talked about that a little bit. The fact that the only other time they've released a movie wide was Detroit two summers ago. And obviously, Detroit, Catherine Bigelow's follow-up to Zero Dark Thirty, it did not work well at all. And so this is not a company that really knows how to put stuff in wide release and knows how to make interesting films. If you're a fan of the master like I am, then Annapurna is great.

If you are a theater owner in America, you may not be as big a fan. If you had a hard time finding Booksmart in your theaters, it might be because some theaters wouldn't carry the film because they know that you can't necessarily get a good return, not as good a return as you could in, say, John Wick 3, or specifically Aladdin. So it's really a dicey proposition. You mentioned the discourse, though. So there's a difference between what movies get made and don't get made versus what a movie can do to change the face of society. And I'm not sure that any movie is that powerful, but there were some chatter, some discourse, some think pieces over the weekend. What did you make of the way that people have

taken to writing about Booksmart? Well, there were a couple different avenues. There was, and this started early, at the end of last week, kind of just as the movie was being released. The people marketing the movie, possibly in a last-ditch effort to cover up their rather lackluster effort until now, were touting the 100% Rotten Tomatoes score. And then Richard Brody at The New Yorker wrote a very thoughtful and Richard Brody-esque review of Booksmart, which is 100% within his right to do. That is how criticism works. And thus the Rotten Tomatoes score was ruined,

according to people who invest in Rotten Tomatoes scores. And- Quote unquote ruined. Right. What does that mean? It means that it wasn't a perfect score. But then advocates for the movie, and I think they were self-appointed advocates. They're just like people on Twitter.

Aren't we all? Aren't we all self-appointed? All of this is people on Twitter, which is a larger problem that we'll talk about, start attacking Richard Brody and start yelling about how the perfect Rotten Tomatoes score is ruined, which that right there, even before you've seen the movie, we're in trouble because Rotten Tomatoes is made up, as everyone who has listened to this podcast knows, it means nothing. Also, it is absolutely within a critic's right to say whatever they want about a film as long as it is respectful. And that's how criticism works. But it was just

already, it was so early, a preview of the various agendas kind of at play here and people just also airing it out in public because I guess they had nothing else to do over a long weekend. Have you encountered Richard Brody before in person? I've seen him in the Condé Nast cafeteria. Okay. So I'm just trying to imagine any one of dozens of people who are very angry about his review in The New Yorker physically confronting him with their opinions and his response to them. I would pay money to watch that. I would pay money to watch people yell at Richard Brody for his opinions. That's like a free New Yorker video idea that maybe you can get a cut on.

It's ridiculous. Like Richard Brody, one, I routinely disagree with what he writes. Two, he's a terrific writer. He's one of the most informed film critics in the world. He has his perch for a reason. I think in some ways he tends to operate in opposition, not as a troll, but as a person who is looking at some of the lesser explored dynamics of certain films. In this case, as in many cases, I did not agree with his take on Booksmart. Of course I agree with you. He has all the right in the world to write it. And also, if a movie does not have a 100% fresh tomato score, that doesn't mean anything. It doesn't mean that the movie isn't good. It also doesn't mean that the movie is actually a little bit bad.

Right. It's an aggregate. It's a formula that has been created that is hardly scientific, though with respect to Rotten Tomatoes, they do their best to get an accurate reading, but their scales are not public to us. We don't know. Some critics decide that they want to share specifically what their score should be with Rotten Tomatoes. Others ignore it completely.

Some of my reviews have been placed in Rotten Tomatoes. I've never once told them this is a 73. You can do that if you want. What would Richard Brody have said Booksmart is? Is it a 58? What does that mean? I like to rate things as much as anybody, but I know that there's a necessary arbitrariness to all of this stuff. People who feel the need to white knight for Booksmart in this respect need a hobby, you know what I mean? Or need to like volunteer their time to something

else. It's just a waste of time. Flip side and segue to chapter two of the Booksmart discourse, which timeline, maybe this is Saturday, Sunday. I don't know. Correct me if I'm wrong. Out come the knives for Booksmart. And I think some of, again, criticism is a vital art in my opinion, and it's fun to talk about movies. This whole exercise, this whole reason that you and I are here and people are listening to this podcast is theoretically to talk about movies because we like them and we want to see all the different angles and think about what they mean to a lot of different people that said it did seem like the hit pieces came out I thought actually several of the pieces and starting with Richard Richard Brody's pointed out something that you and I talked about kind of on our South by Southwest podcast, which is like this is a movie about rich kids.

I believe you made that point. There is, and they are just all extremely comfortable, and they all live in really nice houses on the west side and are going to really good schools. And there's not even like talk of scholarship. It's just in an idealized world where money and class and that kind of stress don't exist. And that is a choice that Olivia Wilde and the screenwriters made. And it has its limitations. It is also not the not the only movie or especially even teen movie that makes that kind of choice. And You Can't Be Everything to Everyone is kind of, I don't know. I actually think it's a very valid critique. I'm kind of talking about what this movie teaches about how to be a teenager.

It does leave out a significant part in that there is always class anxiety. I think very smart teen movies do usually find a way to comment on that because kids know very early. Yes. If you look at like the breakfast club maybe not the most sophisticated movie in the world but a movie that was very conscious of class and very conscious of where people exist in the in the pecking order not just socially but financially and that was meaningful and you can do that in these movies i think it was allison willmore buzzfeed who wrote about this specifically and just wrote one of the things that people seem to be overlooking as they cast to see themselves in a movie like this is just how clearly it is about a bunch of rich people and how that is, as you said,

a kind of a limiting perspective on the kind of story that you can tell, which is fine. But, you know, James Bond is also a certain kind of man in a certain kind of role working for MI6. It's like that also is limiting because he's James Bond. Like every character has attributes that are limiting. Now, on the one hand, sure, Caitlin Dever's character probably comes from a well-to-do family. She's also one of the only female gay characters that's ever been portrayed in a movie in which her sexual identity is not really a driving dramatic force, like the concept of realizing her identity.

It's just a part of her story. It's just endemic to the natural flow of the story. So that's a big deal that that happened. It's not a big deal that, you know, somebody is rich. Every movie can't answer every problem that every person has with everything in the world. And so inevitably we get to these places where you spend two months, you and I go in March, we go to South by Southwest. We're like, I can't wait to see some new movies. We come out of Booksmart, we're like, oh man, that was really good. We get on a podcast, we're like,

you know what's really good? Booksmart. And then we become part of the advocacy campaign unwittingly for Booksmart. That is a weird thing that has happened to cultural consumption in 2019. Yeah, well, I think you isolated something very important.

And the Alison Wilmore piece, which was not a hit piece by any stretch of the imagination, by the way. No, it was largely positive. Yeah, and was very thoughtful. But this idea of when you're looking for yourself on the screen and movies that are positioned as representation or something that you haven't seen before, seeing yourself on the screen. And I was on this podcast being like, you know, the Beanie Feldstein character is young Amanda. I definitely related to a part of that. And it's, of course, the movie meant something more to me than someone who had like normal perspectives and priorities in high school, which shout out to you. So I, but there is something when a movie is positioned to as

finally, you're going to see yourself on the screen, then there are inevitably so many people who are like, that is not me on the screen. And here is why. There was also a lot of valid conversation this weekend about how it's mostly white women in this movie and that there is some diversity in kind of the supporting characteristics. But the two main characters are white women. The production crew is, you know, Olivia Wilde. The build crew are mostly white women the production crew is or is you know Olivia Wilde the build crew are mostly white women and that that does not speak to everyone's experience which is absolutely right and if this movie is to be the movie that speaks to all women and or saves women at the box office then we're in problem and that's when we get to part three of the discourse, which is Olivia Wilde on Sunday,

herself tweeting that Booksmart is getting creamed by all the other, she doesn't name any other movies, but getting creamed by the major releases at the box office. And if you care about movies with women being made, you need to go see Booksmart, which is really just kind of pouring gasoline on the Twitter discourse that is going. While also, I think she's advocating for her movie. I couldn't recall a time when a filmmaker had done that before

by saying, we're failing and we need your help. Now, certainly you've seen people start Patreons so their podcast can get paid for. We've seen people fundraise actively for the things they want to make. Olivia Wilde is a very successful and famous person. It tipped a little bit into the Zach Braff has a Kickstarter campaign for me too. I was like, maybe don't beg for money for your film. Like, I think we did say last week on the episode that Booksmart is likely to become a cult classic. I think it's worthy of that. I think it's worthy of rewatchability. I think it's worthy of dissection. I think it's worthy of quotability. All the things that we like about movies

we watch over and over again. We do so much of that stuff here at The Ringer. I think it's a little tough to be like, if you don't give me your money, you should feel bad because you're not supporting X you don't give me your money, you should feel bad because you're not supporting X, Y, and Z. Like you could say that about a myriad of things in the culture. I think that's true. I think a lot of people do it all the time. It is how things are sold that your consumer choice has to have meaning now. And you have to express who you are

and your political beliefs by what you do, which, by the way, every time you buy something, you do not to like explain capitalism to you. But I think that that has been a proven successful strategy, certainly for Crazy Rich Asians. Certainly, I think to a lesser extent, Crazy Rich Asians really leaned into that by Black Panther. And I think, you know, remember the Ghostbusters thing and the whole troll controversy around it? But I do remember every single time there was a comedy post-Bridesmaids, there is the Bridesmaids gets brought up as like, Bridesmaids taught us that women could be funny too at the box office and we need to have another Bridesmaids. And the reason people keep saying Bridesmaids is because, you know, nothing else has quite lived up to it. So the narrative...

That's not true, though. I mean, we've had Girls Trip. You know, we've had movies like this. It's true. There have been movies like this that have had success and Booksmart not having success. There are so many factors here

for why it doesn't. I was trying, I'm trying to underline about what a studio like MGM, Annapurna can do versus what a big studio can do. And that's meaningful.

Girl Trip was a universal release. Universal's been releasing movies for decades. They know what they're doing. Annapurna is a younger company. They don't know how to do this as well. Totally.

And we need to talk about the release. And I'm not saying that any of these narratives are true. I'm just saying they pop up a lot. They do.

And it is something that people fall back on in order to get you to see a movie or watch a tv show or buy a pair of yoga pants or whatever the hell you're doing so did you buy yoga pants i we can have a talk about yoga pants another time that's a very complex conversation that i'd love to share with you don't know anything about it okay but so i understand olivia wilde is doing what a lot of people in hollywood do but a little more brazenly and it's a little bit harder to take when it's olivia wild who is just extremely successful and beautiful and seemingly and bright and talented yeah you know it kind of has it all

exactly so it's it's weird and it's also like now you're asking for my pity and my money too and to get back to your point it's kind of trying to get audiences to make up for what seems like a pretty legitimate screw-up on the part of the distribution i do not know why it was in wide release in 2000 theaters on Memorial Day against Aladdin and Endgame and John Wick. I don't either. No one does. We said that last week. It just didn't make sense.

Same conversation. To me, it's an August movie. It was always an August movie. It was sort of like either getting back to the end of summer vibes or going back to school vibes. Those are the two things. Now, obviously, it's timed to sort of prom season, end of school season. They're trying to sync it correctly. But you got to think about kind of what's on the market.

We had the same conversation about Long Shot. We could probably have this conversation every week on this show, candidly, about a smaller film that we really like with some young stars that we really admire and interesting filmmakers. They put something on the world, and it's not as big as the big, annoying thing.

You know, what is next week's version of that? We got Rocketman and Godzilla, and then there's a Netflix movie that you really like that we're going to talk about. So what's more important? In this case, it being a Netflix movie means it probably has a chance to reach 10, 20, 30 times as many people as something like Bookspart does by going into theaters. So we keep having these conversations and we keep talking about how stratified the viewing experience is for people now. Where one kind of movie brings audiences out and another doesn't. I will say one thing that Booksmart could have done that other smaller studios do is they platform these movies in 10 theaters and then 50 and then 100.

And they build word of mouth and they make a moment happen over time. The last time I thought of one critic blowing up a 100% fresh score was Lady Bird. Lady Bird, not a mega smash at the box office, but it did good business for a movie that size. There was one person who blew up its 100% score, but it slowly rolled into a number of theaters over time. Booksmart's attempt to be super bad, it wasn't going to happen. We're outside of that Judd Apatow studio comedy moment. There's nothing comparable about those two movies, aside from the fact that narratively they have the same shape.

And it was just a miscalculation. Like, that's all there is to it. They just, there was, this is a business error. It's not a comment on the future of feminism in this country. It just can't be that. It can't bear that burden. It's unreasonable. I think it's also misunderstands both who its audience is and how its audience watches movies, which is, again, to your point, teens are not going to find this in theaters, especially the first weekend.

Especially not—there was a lot of talk about the trailer. Yes. A lot of people feeling that the trailer was not as strong as it could have been or was not the type of trailer to get especially young people into theaters, which is a big ask, especially for an R-rated movie. They're very young. So they have to get their parents, which means they have to talk to their parents, which is that, I mean, who's going to surmount that in 2019 when you can just wait for it on Netflix? Yeah.

So, I mean, that seems like another error. And then I guess it's meant for people our age. And we saw it. You know, I went to a theater to see it. So here's the problem. Had a little chat with my 16-year-old sister this weekend. It was her birthday yesterday. I was going to say 16.

Happy birthday, Grace. I love you. Two movies came up. Booksmart was not one of them. The two movies were Dark Phoenix. She's stoked. And Men in Black International, she's stoked. Grace, come to Men in Black International with me.

Yeah, so maybe you guys can do the exit survey pod on that one. She has no awareness of this movie at all. It's not in the natural conversation because in some ways it is appealing to me and you. It's appealing to our foregone memories of not just high school, but watching high school movies. And we did a whole podcast talking about our top five high school movies because it's in its way, even though I think it's sophisticated and modern movie, it's a nostalgia play. It's a reminder movie.

It's also specific. Donny Kwok had an amazing point that has just been needling me all day. Donny, a colleague of ours at The Ringer, was just like, it's a bad title. Booksmart? I don't want to go see that. And I was just like, my feelings were hurt. Like, I was 15 again, and I was Molly in the bathroom just being like, wait, people don't want to see a movie.

But, you know, it is, it's niche. And it's... You know what they want to see? Super bad. Yeah. Two very powerful, clear, direct words. Right. Book, already people are like, I'm out.

This is a movie about a book. I don't want books. I don't like books. You know what I have? A phone. This is a problem. Yeah. Is it a clever title when you see the movie?

Sure. That's catchy. Yeah, it's okay. It appeals to who it's supposed to appeal to, but they then marketed and released the movie like it's supposed to appeal for everyone. And that's the problem. What would be a better title?

I don't know. At some point, how do you market a 16-year-old girl who is like a nice Tracy Flick to America? That might be the problem in and of itself. Not to go back to feminism is ruined, but... What are the two leads' names? Amy and Molly. So if it was like amy and molly's adventures in something would you be like what is that i wouldn't but maybe america would

i think what we've learned is that you and i are not we were aware that it wasn't going to go well but in terms of our taste what if it was just called super good would people be interested i don't know. Would they? Could they get away with that? Isn't the fundamental niceness of it also ultimately a problem? You think working against it? Yeah.

In some ways, maybe. Superbad, I thought, was very sweet, but did have a dark core. I'm not sure that Booksmart has a dark core. No, it's kind of its operating mode and reason for existence is no negativity. I don't know if there are any significant takeaways here. I think this was a unique example of the movie internet hype cycle writ large. I was going to say, I thought a lot about, there was a New York Times piece a few weeks ago about politics Twitter versus real life and it just the people who are popular in the stories that are discussed on Twitter believe it or not are very different from the people and the stories that have awareness in

America writ large and it's the movies are just in that all of the time but I think what worries me is that it kind of seems like the film industry is making its, or some people in the film industry, like actually believe internet movie, like movie internet rather than real life internet. I mean, we can feel it even with this podcast. When you think about the guests that come on the show, the people that we hear from who work in the industry, it's all reflected in the fact that the media surrounding movies is becoming increasingly digital. And so because of that, there are only so many ways to learn about this stuff. And I think that there are increasingly fewer Super Bowl movies. There's maybe six a year now and everything else is kind

of fighting for attention. And so that means something like Detective Pikachu is fighting for as much airspace as Booksmart is because neither can really compete with Avengers Endgame or The Rise of Skywalker or The Lion King. You know, there's only a handful of those super duper power things that don't need us. You know, we're going to contribute. In fact, I like a lot of those movies. I talk about them all the time on the show because I dig them. But Booksmart needs us or at least it thinks it needs us. And inevitably, we become a part

of this process this may seem like a very inward looking conversation but I find it to be fascinating because we feel like it can dictate the success

of a movie and it can't like it ultimately cannot 98% fresh on Rotten Tomatoes is a nice little badge of honor

doesn't really mean anything doesn't guarantee you that you get to make another movie at all in fact so many people get great reviews

all the time and they have to fight really hard to get their next movie made. So, I don't know where we go from here. You know, like what happens? Will Olivia Wilde

get to make a bigger and better movie on her next movie because she got great marks? Maybe because she's already famous and she's already proven herself in some other aspects. But I'm not so sure. Yeah.

I mean, that's the thing is that her tweet was self-serving and part of a narrative that none of us likes, but it's also maybe not wrong. So that's tough. I hope that Beanie Feldstein is not punished. I suspect she'll be fine. Beanie Feldstein is a delight. I too am pro Beanie. Yeah. Should we pivot to some movies that people are also entering into the internet movie hype cycle this weekend? Yeah, let's do it. We haven't even seen these.

We haven't seen any of these movies. That's what people love. Movie podcasts without actual movies. It's a real shame. You have actually seen one movie, you personally, that premiered at the Cannes Film Festival this week. That movie's called Rocketman. Oh, yeah. We're not talking about Rocketman in this episode. Are you sure?

I'm super sure. Come back on Friday if you want to hear Amanda and I talking about Rocket Man. That, of course, is Elton John biopic starring Taron Egerton and Richard Madden and who else? Jamie Bell. Jamie Bell. Sure. I'm sure it's delightful. I'm seeing it this week. We're going to chat. Amanda will probably sing. It'll be great. Rocketman had a very glitzy premiere and was mostly well-received, I would say, at the Cannes Film Festival. On Monday, we saw the results of the festival. The jury voted, and they deemed

the best films of the year. The winner was Bong Joon-ho's Parasite. I seem to recall you loving Okja. I love Okja. Bong Joon-ho, definitely one of the greatest living filmmakers. He's the man behind the host.

Snowpiercer, Memories of a Murder, South Korean director, definitely just plainly a genius. It's not hard to get excited for this movie, which I believe has now been tabbed for October.

It's going to be released by Neon. I would guess, kind of commensurate to this conversation we're having about Booksmart, that they're going to try to get a lot of people to go see this movie. I would guess, kind of commensurate to this conversation we're having about Booksmart, that they're going to try to get a lot of people to go see this movie. I think it'll be the widest released movie. We don't have to talk about the plot of the movie. It's just notable that Bong won. This is the first time. I believe a Korean filmmaker of any kind has won the Pomdor. Yes, it is.

Which is a very big deal in and of itself. And I think there are fewer filmmakers, there are very few filmmakers in the world that can combine tension, anxiety, humor, and spectacle the way that he can. So very fired up for this movie. What's a movie that peaked your interest at Cannes? I mean, do you want to talk about Once Upon a Time in Hollywood? Yes, I think we ought to. I just did that intro for you right there. You did.

So that's, of course, Gwen Tarantino's movie. We're going to talk about this movie a lot in the month of July on this show. You're going to be annoyed with us, but we don't care. It is what it is. Only so often do we get a movie with Brad Pitt and Leonardo DiCaprio and Margot Robbie written and directed by Quentin Tarantino set in 1960s Hollywood, which is, of course, where we are recording the show right now. On paper, dream project. First reviews, pretty much what I expected, which is to say that there were some people who said, this movie is a masterpiece.

Quentin Tarantino has returned to form. There were other people who said, some great stuff in here. I'm not sure it's his best. Maybe he's a little bit past his prime. And there were some other people who said, this dude is problematic. This is also probably the worst hype cycle that we're going to encounter this year, if I had to guess. There was a lot of conversation around a question that was asked of

Tarantino at the press conference about how much dialogue Margot Robbie's portrayal of Sharon Tate had in the film. I mean, what a strange thing to learn. I'd prefer to not know anything about the movie if I could help it. Yes. But now I know that Sharon Tate doesn't have a lot of dialogue in the movie and Quentin Tarantino, I think, regarded the question somewhat witheringly. But also, was anyone surprised by that? And I think that this sort of question of like, will Quentin Tarantino get canceled is back and will be back for two months. I'm kind of exasperated by that, which is not to say that I know everything Quentin Tarantino did in his life and I insist that he not be canceled. I don't know.

I don't have the first clue. But it was interesting to me how quickly this all got kick-started. Yeah, I mean, you had to know it was coming because he literally is making a movie about the Manson murders. And it's not about them, but they figure prominently in Once Upon a Time in Hollywood. Margot Robbie is playing Sharon Tate. This is Quentin Tarantino engaging with his critics and everyone who has something to say about how he makes movies. And that means that the discourse will be Booksmart times a million because it's actually famous people in this movie and it won't be your favorite part of it or my favorite part about it no i think there will also be some actually interesting conversations about it i'm excited to see the movie because then you

can actually have thoughtful conversations about how this stuff happens that was the problem with the press not the problem with the press conference which by the way quentin Tarantino should know how to answer that question. It's not hard. It's not that he doesn't know how. It's that he just doesn't want to deal. He wants to be above it. He's always wanted to be above it. He's been hijacking interviews and taking them into directions he's wanted to for years. And in some ways, I used to find that very charming. Now I can see why it's a little bit more quote unquote problematic. But I just wasn't surprised by this at all. And I think that there were some corners of the internet, particularly people who are young, who don't maybe have the same emotional connection to Tarantino, but also who don't have as much experience kind of like engaging in the

things that he does outside of his films, who are kind of aghast at the way that some of this went. And I was like, come on guys, get over it. I know. My thing is just, especially it's so easy to have a one sentence answer and then it moves on and now we just got to be arguing about a press conference where no one's seen the movie for like the next two months and that's not good for anyone and it's not good for the movie you're right it's really not doesn't solve any problems about how women are represented in any films tarantinos or otherwise it's just like we're all arguing each other without any basis would you think of how margot robbie kind of stepped in to answer that question for

Quentin? Did you catch that? I did. She said essentially that she chose to take the role and she knew what she was getting into, which I think is legitimate. So, you know, you always wonder when it's, I never like it when one woman has to stand there answering for four or five. It's not great optics, which is another reason of just Quentin Tarantino, like learn one sentence, get over yourself. Flip side. She's a very famous,

powerful woman who has agency and is like, I want to do this. Yes. But I think that that is also really valid at the same time. She chose to do it. She is not a dumb person and she has a lot of, she's involved in the projects that she chooses. She produces a lot. So I'm not super worried about it. It just all seemed avoidable. So much of this is just like, really, do we have to? And that's not to dismiss actually valid conversations

about any of these issues. But a lot of it just comes down to people yelling. I agree. I feel like we're just remarking on the discourse in a lot of this episode, which is notable in its way.

I don't know if you got a chance to look at Leonardo DiCaprio's face throughout this press conference. He's sitting back in his chair. Oh, I did. I did. He's wearing sunglasses. He seems completely disaffected. He could not be less interested in a conversation that is happening that he is one of the stars of. In many ways, I admire what Leo does, this being one of them. I'm routinely impressed with his ability to not engage. It's one of the all-time great choices in the history of Hollywood. He just doesn't do anything, and it doesn't matter,

because he keeps choosing good movies. And if you just keep making good movies, or movies that are close to good, you just go on forever without giving a really searing personal interview. That guy doesn't sit for podcasts. You know, he doesn't answer questions. Interestingly, it can at premieres. Or in magazines. Can we talk very briefly about the Esquire interview?

Sure. Because Quentin Tarantino, Brad Pitt, and Leonardo DiCaprio are on the cover of Esquire. It was released in concert with the Once Upon a Time in Hollywood premiere. And it's just a virtuoso, boring performance by Leonardo DiCaprio. It's paragraph length answers. You fall asleep halfway through. I have no idea what he said in the interview. He's just like Linus's teacher.

He did say, I've been listening to a lot of podcasts about the history of hollywood and it was at that moment when i thought leo come on the big picture please come talk come do a top five with me and amanda i mean open invitation please do sir i'm sorry if you thought that peanuts reference was rude no that is standing leo is a tremendous actor he should come on flip side brad pitt in that interview which I should say is conducted by my old boss, Michael Haney. Very, just wonderful as usual. Good stories, good jokes.

Seems like a weird dad. Definitely knows a lot about old Hollywood as well and seems interested in it. Likes talking about growing up in Missouri. Brad Pitt, when he sits for these things,

is usually pretty good. He's not consequential necessarily, but he's entertaining. And charming. And then just wears the short polos. He's not consequential necessarily, but he's entertaining. And charming. Yes. And then just wears the short polos. It's an all-time Brad Pitt performance. He's a very handsome man.

Yeah. Very handsome man. And Tarantino is doing Tarantino kind of in full in that interview too. You know, certainly quite full of himself, but also insightful about why he's doing the things that he's doing.

You get that unique mixture. You know, I'm just, there's not a movie coming out this year that I'm more interested to see. There are some cool movies coming out in year that I'm more interested to see. There are some cool movies coming out in 2019. This is definitely

my most anticipated. Couple of other Cannes things. Terrence Malick and Pedro Almodovar have films, both of which are said to be very, very good.

Returns to form for a pair of masters. The Almodovar film is relevant to our Oscar conversation, particularly because the winner of Best Actor at Cannes was Antonio Banderas. And Antonio Banderas has been jet streamed into the

lead of the Best Actor race at the Oscars. I'm not sure how many of our listeners have seen movies like Assassins, but Antonio Banderas is not necessarily considered a great actor. He has done great things. He's in fact done great things in all of our films, but he's kind of a ham. Yes. And, you know, for those of you who have not seen Assassins,

that famous gif of Antonio Banderas leaning back and sort of, you know, biting his knuckle and kissing is from Assassins.

Yeah. And the idea of him as the front runner in an Oscar race, I find to be fascinating, but that's the kind of thing that Cannes can do. It is like a certifying moment. This movie doesn't come out until October. We don't have to talk about it too much at length here. Conversely, A Hidden Life is Terrence Malick's new film, which is set during World War

II and also deemed to return to form. I'll be honest, it just seemed very boring in the description. I think- It's true. I love Terrence Malick's films, even some of the less liked films. There's big chunks of Song of Song that I dug, even though many people find Song of Song completely unwatchable. No one has abused the time of movie stars quite like Terrence Malick. Not even Marvel has abused the working time, the working life.

He's put so much on the cutting room floor of Michael Fassbender, of Natalie Portman, of so many good actors over the years. There are not famous people in this new film, Hidden Life. I'm looking forward to it. I'm having a hard time trusting

the canon critics that it's going to be great. All of the reviews are like transcendent like deeply searching all of the all of the scary amanda words that mean excuse me that's rude i should it just seems like it's gonna be three hours where nothing much happens and and that can be beautiful as well. But I agree with you that I would like to see it for myself. I would like to see it is kind of my answer to all of these.

The one dead giveaway that this movie is going to be meaningful is that Fox Searchlight bought it. And they spent $10 million. Fox Searchlight, of course, now owned by Disney, but still probably the very best in the game at award season campaigning. And they released The Favorite last year. Before that, they had Three Billboards and The Shape of Water. This is like the most sophisticated team when it comes to rolling out awards. And the Oscars, you know, there are always Oscar movies at Cannes. Last year, there were a handful.

Among them, Black Klansman premiered there. Shoplifters premiered there. That's that film on the palm door so you can kind of count on a handful at least of movies appearing we'll see what happens

with Terrence Malick and his deeply searching transcendent A Hidden Life I really want to see The Lighthouse oh yeah

we were at a a Passover Seder you and I about a month ago month ago i actually wasn't at that one but it's nice that you include me and all i was traveling you were traveling but i heard a lot about the spirited discussion about this movie so just pretend like i was there friend of a friend had a friend who worked on the film sounded like a hilariously ridiculous production this is a i guess a period piece um piece starring Robert Pattinson and Willem Dafoe about an old lighthouse keeper and his young apprentice that is shot in black and white in

a square format that apparently looks very strange, that is extremely period specific, and also features a lot of flatulence and sounds absurd. You've already started memeing this. Yeah. So that's how we know that you're in. I'm all in. Yeah, it also seems pretty meme-worthy so that's good. First of all, Robert Pattinson is literally the best indie actor

alive. He only makes movies that I'm like, I would like to see that movie. Maybe up to and including the new Batman, which he may or may not be starring in. This movie, Robert Eggers of course made The Witch. I'm not sure you've seen the witch no you're shaking your head very violently at me um will you see the lighthouse i don't i guess so i

i'm pro robert pattinson and if it's not a if it's not very scary i guess so i don't really know that like black and white joke feature film featuring flatulence is also my cup of tea. But, you know, you don't know until you try. You don't know until you try. Two other movies we don't know until we try that I'm really very much looking forward to. One was written about by Manuel Alaziz on TheRinger.com. This is Selena Skiamma's Portrait of a Lady on Fire, which is also a prize winner on Monday. Very much looking forward to it.

There's not really much we can say about it. This movie has also been acquired, as has Maddie Jopp's Atlantics, I think both of which are going to be stateside in the fall. I expect both of these movies to contend for Best Foreign Language Film Oscars. Best International Film. They changed it. You're right. Best International Film. Very good.

Maybe just to close this out, we should talk about Abdel Latif Kashish's new film. They changed it. You're right. Best international film. Very good. Maybe just to close this out, we should talk about Abdelatif Kashish's new film. Are you familiar with Abdelatif Kashish? I don't think so. He's the writer and director of Blue is the Warmest Color.

Oh, yeah. So in 2017, he released a movie called Mektoub My Love, Canto Uno. His follow-up to that is called Mektoub My My Love Intermezzo.

Now, apparently, this movie is four hours long and is entirely about butts. It sounds like a joke. I'm not joking. Kashish, of course, is like, you know, very interested in the human body. Very interested in sexuality.

Very interested in the way that people physically interact. Apparently, there are just long lingering shots on butts in this movie. Okay. I mean, how is that different from Blue is the Warmest Color? It's not, although Blue is the Warmest Color is not four hours. That's true. And it's not a part two. That's a great point.

This is literally a part two. You in? Four hours, just part two. Well, I guess it's got to be part one and part two together. Okay, that seems more reasonable. Yeah, because part one premiered at Venice in 2017. I don't know what kind of release it got. I'm not sure if it got a U.S. release.

And I'm not sure if Intermezzo is going to get a U.S. release. It's really hard to say. It's Pathé, so you'd assume that there would be some sort of U.S. distribution. Oh, no, I'm looking at the—it really is saying 212 minutes just for the running time of Part 2. 212 minutes. There you go. Six and a half hours of butts. It's about more than butts, right?

It's just that it features a lot of butts. It's French. Shall I read the synopsis of the film? When did you become so uptight? In 1994, Ophélie discovers she is pregnant

with her lover's child even though she is engaged and due to marry her fiancé soon. With summer at a close, she contemplates going to Paris to have an abortion. She and her friends decide to spend

a night at a club in Sete where she has sex with her other friend. So it's just... That's the whole summary of a three and a half hour movie. Imagine how many shots of butts there are going to be. A lot, but it features a lot of butts.

I don't know whether I'll see this. That seems like a really, really long time to watch people clubbing and fucking. I mean, I understand that there's a whole industry devoted to that type of film as well but i it's not my understanding that those movies are three and a half hours long brace yourself for a segue from butts to beto uh we're gonna talk about all right i think we need to just talk briefly about um a couple of other movies that have come out this year we're recording this on tuesday, Running with Beto will premiere on HBO. And this is, of course, the documentary about Beto O'Rourke's 2017-18 campaign to win the Senate seat in Texas.

He did not win. He is now running for president. I saw the film with South by Southwest. I interviewed the director, David Modigliani, on the show. I think it was a very interesting portrait of a person trying to do something that is very unlikely. It is part of a rash of political documentaries, many of which debuted at Sundance, among them The Brink, which is a portrayal of Steve Bannon, and also Knock Down the House, which we talked about on this show. That's on Netflix right now. It shows Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez and three other women attempting to run for Congress in that very same midterm election. I wrote about this a little bit on the site. If you want to hear more about it, please read that. I think it's just interesting that all these movies are happening at the same

time. Last year, the big story was Docs Are Booming, Mr. Rogers, Free Solo, RBG. These movies are huge movements. It's interesting to me that the documentaries that have really popped this year, and even the Sundance films that have really popped, have largely been on streaming services or on HBO. Leaving Neverland, The Inventor, Fire. You know, most of these movies that probably would have taken the spots of the RPGs or the Mr. Rogers, the events, they're really things that got us talking for two, five, seven, nine days, are not appearing in theaters. Running with Beto is not appearing in theaters.

The Brink is really one of the only ones that has appeared and it just has not done that well. I think it's an interesting movie, but this is a kind of akin to the Booksmart conversation, where it's really hard to get people out to these movies. You and I were eyeballing some of the box office results of the Sundance 2019 crop. Yeah. It's pretty dark. Apollo 11, which you recommended on this show well before I had seen it, is by far the champion. Other films on here, The Mustang, Biggest Little Farm, Birds of Passage, Hail Satan, which is very good.

And then a movie that we'll talk about in a minute that you finally got a chance to see. You said something earlier when you said we need to talk about Biggest Little Farm. You have some questions? Well, I just have only seen the trailer because, as I understand it, it's about people who learn to farm, which is a noble profession. But it definitely, I mean, it is. You heard it here first. It's a noble profession.

But it's just like, I was was like is this a movie or is this like on hgtv i don't what's happening with big little farm but i haven't seen it so you've seen it so i wanted to ask you uh it it's a movie it's definitively a movie in fact it's doing quite well at the box office it's earned over a million dollars a movie about a farm starring not famous people i think one of the things that recommends it is it's just a very beautiful looking film and so they're the experience of watching nature unfold in real time it's about a family that kind of leaves the big city lifestyle buys a farm and then wants to um raise the farm organically in in concert with nature in a very

thoughtful way and so in some ways it's like a issues oriented documentary in some ways nature in a very thoughtful way. And so in some ways, it's like a issues-oriented documentary. In some ways, it's a family story. And there's like great scenes with dogs. There's great scenes with pigs. You know, there's moments of true terror, you know, where like the weather is unmanageable or there's a sickness among the crops. But it's fine.

Like it's not, it's a nice movie. Is it a fictional movie or a documentary? No, it's a documentary. A documentary. Okay, that's you. I just wanted to be sure. So it's kind of like the movies about the penguins, but... In a way.

But for... Yeah, there are more humans in this film. But humans. Yeah. And a farm. Yeah. That seems nice. Yeah, it's nice.

It's perfectly nice. Again, I do not understand why you would go to the theater to see that. I think it's related to an issue that we've been talking about lately, which is that people want stuff that ends happily. That's the Green Book story. You know, I don't want to feel bad about the world. I want to feel good. And yet you try to make me watch Chernobyl every week.

Please tune into this podcast if you like Chernobyl. We'll be exploring it in depth next week. Chernobyl is absolutely phenomenal. I would not recommend it if you want to feel good. It is the worst feeling experience you could ever have. Nevertheless, Biggest Little Farm's done well. Another movie that is doing well slowly but surely that came out a couple weeks ago

that I hinted at a couple of times and recommended to you is The Souvenir. You saw The Souvenir? I saw The Souvenir. You enjoyed it? Wow. Shout out to you. You walked out and you were like,

you're going to love this movie and then didn't tell me anything else about it. And. Shout out to you. You walked out and you were like, you're going to love this movie. And then didn't tell me anything else about it. And I didn't read the, I thought, very interesting Rebecca Mead profile in The New Yorker of the director Joanna Hogg until after I saw the movie. Read as little about this movie as possible and then go see it. And if you haven't seen it, please stop listening because we're going to talk about it. I was stunned. It was one of those very exciting, I just saw because we're going to talk about it. I was stunned. It was one of those very exciting, I just saw something magical film going experiences. And I think being

there in the theater and just being kind of disappearing into this world was extremely effective, but I was really amazed. Do you know what you're doing right now? What? You're participating in the internet hype cycle around a movie called The Souvenir. Yeah. I wish there were more of a hype cycle. That's fine. I will send out a tweet about how you need to go see The Souvenir or else they won't make more movies like The Souvenir. I'm on board. I'm almost certain Joanna Hogg is not on Twitter, so you may have to. What do you want to say about the movie? It is quite a fascinating piece, in some ways not knowing anything is key, as you say, because it unfolds very slowly and elliptically

and mysteriously. There are very few conversations in the movie where you truly get a sense of what's happening primarily between these two characters who are in a relationship, but also between a daughter and a mother, between a young woman and her teachers. There's all kinds of complex relationships happening in the movie that I think a little bit more closely resemble what happens in life, which is life is not a series of soliloquies at each other. It's a series of unspoken glances and awkward notes about things that you know about someone but are afraid to say publicly. I had a conversation with a friend of ours over the weekend about the movie, and we were just kind of marveling at the design You know the way that everything kind of slowly unfolds and the way that you get a you get kind of like a clue

About what's happening in the film and then that clue sort of vanishes for a little while and then it comes back a little bit Later on It's it's it's kind of film writer speak to say what a what a closely observed movie this is, but it really is Very very intimate it is, but it really is very, very intimate. It is. It takes place in a very small space for the most part. It takes place either in this apartment, a very nice apartment near Harrods in London, apparently, and or in a series of tea rooms across London. That's your shit. Yeah, it is really my shit.

I also, I didn't tell you this, but watching it, so the main character is Julie and she's played by Honor Swinton-Byrne, who is Tilda Swinton's daughter. It's her first role. She also happens to be the goddaughter of Joanna Hogg. And she is stunning.

And obviously she has some of the genetic DNA of one of the greatest actresses living. And you can see flashes of Tilda, but you are also, it is a very natural performance. And you're kind of watching someone learn how to be both themselves and an actor at the same time. And they capture all of that. Tilda is an interesting figure. I'm a huge admirer but especially this year if you look at her performances she's kind of doing a very self-referential bit about being tilda you know she's in a movie that also premiered can the dead

don't die where she plays a katana wielding uh mortician she's in aven Avengers Endgame as the ancient one. She's cropped up on what we do in the shadows. She's doing a lot of bits. This is a movie that is antithetical to bits. And her daughter's performance is antithetical to bits.

It's like you said, it's super naturalistic. It's really one of those things where you're watching it and you know that she'll never give her performance like this again. There is really something about

almost capturing something that you shouldn't be seeing, which is a real theme of the movie. I mean, I guess it depends on your relationship to intimacy, but it is intimate to the point of invasion at times. I think she is tremendous in it, and I thought a lot about watching it. This movie is set in the 80s in London. And I was watching,

I was like, huh, really the only other film reference I have for this are clips of Princess Diana. Because as you know, I'm like a, I'm a huge Royals fanatic. And I went home afterwards. I was like, oh, she kind of has the same affect and she talks the same way and is dressing the same way. And of course, Joanna Hogg, the director went to school with Princess Diana. They were, yes, they went to the same boarding school with Tilda Swinton also. Oh my. Which I didn't know until after the fact, but it was fascinating to me. But it really does have, I mean, that's great trivia if you also care about that stuff,

but the specificity of place and of all of the British class stuff that I can't even quite parse, but it feels so lived in and personal, which without revealing too much, it definitely is. Yeah. I mean, it's autobiographical, but also feels like it was written in a novel 300 years ago. You know, it's sort of a chamber piece. It's sort of a drama about manners. It's sort of a spy movie. It's sort of a recovery tale. It's a complicated, interesting movie. It feels ripped from something real. It'd be very hard to do a movie like this if you did not have these experiences because it feels like it has a lot of knowledge. Maybe not specifically all the experiences, but people that she knows. She's recreating something. Joanna Hogg's a really interesting figure. I mean, she's 59 years old. This is not her first

film. It's her fourth movie. She has been making very small films in England for the last 12 or 15 years. I would highly recommend her previous movie, which is called Exhibition. I don't know if you've seen it. It's about two married artists living together in sort of their middle life and what they mean to each other and what they don't mean to each other anymore. Very interesting movie. Also feels ripped from real life. Yes. There's a fascinating conversation between Joanna Hogg and Martin Scorsese on the A24 podcast.

A24 released The Souvenir. That was just wonderful because it was a reminder that Martin Scorsese knows everything about every movie ever made, which I'm routinely intrigued by. But also the level of mutual respect between the two of them is so fascinating. And hearing the story of how he became aware of her work, how they connected, how they stayed in touch over the years. I guess Scorsese is sort of an executive producer on this movie, which is just something that he does all the time whenever he comes across somebody that he likes.

And it's Joanna Hogg interestingly conveying her point of view about the world and why she's making the movies that she's making, and also the movies that she likes, why she's interested in musicals, why she's interested in Powell and Pressburger movies. It's a lot of obvious reference points that you would know if you saw the film, but I just found it to be such a worthwhile interaction between two people who are interesting to me, who I don't think I would have necessarily thought, I don't think of are interesting to me who I don't think I would have necessarily thought I don't think of them as contemporaries

I don't even think of them as really working in the same field because one is a titan and has this historic reputation and this other person is basically a 59 year old

wunderkind but the truth is neither of those things are true you know like Martin Scorsese made a lot of bad movies Joanna Hogg's been doing this

for 20 years she's directed lots of television and you can kind of see how people reach level playing fields when they're just forced to talk to one another. Like me and you on this podcast. What a lovely segue. So go see The Souvenir. Please do. What else is happening in our movie world? I feel like we've really talked it through. So we're really just not going to talk about the Rocketman right now.

We're just going to save it. I'm kidding. What do you want to say? No, I don't. I don't actually want to say anything. How can you tee it up for people who are excited to see this movie? Do you think this movie will be a big hit? I mean, we did this last week with Booksmart.

There's a lot more anxiety on Rocketman. I don't. And I don't think it will be a big hit. Can I tell you that there is serious thought that it's a big time Oscar movie? Particularly for two reasons. I'll give you them right now. One, Taron Egerton is insistent upon working this movie as hard as he can. Yeah.

And he has been media trained to within an inch of his life to win people over in this movie. He's going to be singing and performing in front of people. If this movie doesn't have nine Golden Globe nominations, I will be surprised. So there's that. Two, Elton John's alive. Elton John also going out on the campaign tour, talking up a storm,

sharing his thoughts about his life experiences. I just listened to an old interview with him on Fresh Air. I was like, yeah, Elton John. He's got some good stories. Very good communicator. Really great at talking about what happened to him. I'm not sure I want to see a musical about his life, but I can see that there is a charm offensive

that is going to be happening here. So at worst, even if it's not a hit, can it have the legs to last through January? Maybe. It seems early. And I was mostly just baiting you because the Rocket Man Rocket Man is my bit

and I also did really enjoy it but I think it's in a weird situation where it's obviously right after Bohemian Rhapsody and hoping to you know ride those coattails I assume both box office wise

and Oscar wise and I don't see it happening box office-wise. It has no chance at $800 million. Bohemian Rhapsody is the most not repeatable situation, really, that I can imagine. I can't think of another band that could get that to happen. That's true. But there is, I just don't know if the charm offensive can make a repeat happen, even at the Oscars.

And the Oscars loves to do things late and to only catch up after the fact. And it loves a charm offensive. And I'm sure they would love Elton John to perform. And I'm sure he will. And I would love it, too. I know I said get rid of best song, but just give me a melody of, give me a medley of Elton John performing for like 20 minutes. But I think it feels too close in all of the ways that the Oscar conversation wasn't thrilled about to Bohemian Rhapsody. And I think that it's probably not innovative or, that's not fair actually.

I think it's actually pretty innovative as far as things go, but it's probably not innovative or that's not fair actually i think it's actually pretty innovative as far as things things go but it's not smart enough to have people double down on a on a musical like this that's kind of what i think oscar was very small counterpoint maybe we'll talk about this a little bit more on friday after i've actually seen the damn movie but there has not been been a single Oscar movie released yet this year. We are entering the last week of May. I don't think that any movie has a chance that has been released in any major category unless it's a week year for Best Actress and Lupita is nominated for us. But otherwise, I don't think we've seen it. And that's fascinating. That never happens.

It's been years since we've gone this late into the year without getting one kind of early season entrant. And this feels like it could be that movie. Once Upon a Time in Hollywood will be that too. But there's just something about this that feels like it's teed up. That's my prediction. That would be, I think that would be good.

That's the other thing is that we have to parse my Elton John fandom and my delight watching this movie, which was real with, do I think it would be good for movies for Rocketman to be nominated for an Oscar? I'm not sure about the latter. Amanda, I think it's going to be a long, long time before we podcast again. Great stuff. I'll see you later this week where we chat about Rocketman just a bit more.