The Big Picture - Boots Riley’s ‘Sorry to Bother You’ Is a Cinematic Acid Trip | The Big Picture (Ep. 75)

Episode Date: July 9, 2018

Ringer editor-in-chief Sean Fennessey chats with first-time filmmaker and longtime musician Boots Riley about the challenging transition from making music with his group The Coup to making his first feature-length film, the experimental social comedy ‘Sorry to Bother You,’ on his own. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

what exactly is Toni Morrison's Song of Solomon trying to say? What is Salman Rushdie's Midnight's Children trying to say? Trying to say a lot of stuff. If I made a song or a movie with one thing to say, shoot me. Because I just wasted my time and yours, you know? I'm Sean Fennessey, editor-in-chief of The Ringer, and this is The Big Picture, a conversation show with some of the most interesting filmmakers in the world. There's never been a movie like Sorry to Bother You.

That probably undersells Boots Riley's absurdist, fantastical, sometimes unnerving satire of American working life in the telemarketing industry. But there is no real way to properly explain this movie, other than to say Lakeith Stanfield plays a telemarketer who discovers extraordinary success after tapping into his, quote, white voice. What ensues from there is just too wild to spoil. Sorry to bother you as Boots Riley's first movie, but I've been following his work for two decades, mostly as the frontman of The Coup, a socio-politically-minded rap band from the Bay Area. His first movie was inspired in part by a 2012 album the group released,

and the long road to feature filmed him was a fascinating one for Boots, who went to film school and had always planned to become a director. I chatted with him about that journey, integrating message with entertainment, and where he wants to go next. Here's Boots Riley today. Boots, what's up? What's happening, man?

Boots, you made your first film. How did this happen? It happened little by little. It happened by every day thinking I was three months away from making the movie for about seven years. When did it first hit you? When were you like, I need to do this? I started writing it in 2011, in early 2011, and finished it in 2012. But I didn't know anybody in the film industry. So I made an album that was inspired by the script with the

idea that I would get publicity for the album. I mean, publicity for the movie through that. That didn't work. I needed money. So we put the album out, toured it for a couple of years. And then I was frustrated and was going to just put it on the internet just to let people know, look, I spent a year making something. Maybe 20 years down the line, somebody would find it and be like, oh, it was actually a good script or something. I ran into Dave Eggers on the street in San Francisco and said, hey, I'm about to put this up on the internet, but it'd be cool to get some feedback so I could make it as tight as possible. And then he had a great reaction to it. He said it's one of the best unproduced screenplays he'd read. And he published it as its own paperback book and packaged it with the quarterly. And that was in 2014, which then ignited some buzz. I joined SF Film as a filmmaker in residence, went and bum rushed people at Sundance during the festival. They invited me to apply to the screenwriter's lab.

I did director's lab, all those things. But it started even before that because I started out in film school when we got our first record deal. So was that something that even when the coup was going heavy, you knew you were going to try to get back into the film game at some point? I think I didn't think of that as a realistic thing. Did I want to? Yes. Why didn't it happen in the first place? Why did you end up going in the music route? Well, let's see. I was going to San Francisco State, and the film school at that time was heavily focused on documentary and experimental film. I think they changed later after I left. So I wasn't getting the same kind of guidance on it that I would have wanted. And somebody was offering me $50,000 to make music.

So I quit school. Going to San Francisco State, it's not like maybe going to a film school in LA or going to a film school in New York where maybe you meet recent graduates that are doing movies or working in film. And I'm glad now in hindsight that it didn't happen because I probably would have been making movies and trying to make movies that I thought would get me jobs in the industry. Interesting. Which is what I think some people do when they come out of film school. When you were making music though, did you have, did you have regret about not pursuing the film stuff? Well, maybe because when you look at our songs, we're known, two of our most famous songs are two like eight minute long story songs. And then I have a lot of other songs that are, that are stories. And many reviews said that the style was cinematic, whatever that means. I've described details in my stories a lot.

And so that had to do with that. I also, all of our music videos, I would do the treatment for, sometimes storyboard. And then I was a big part of the process the whole way, including like camping out in the editing room, things like that. I co-directed our video for me and Jesus the Pimp in a 79 Granada last night. So it was something that I wanted to do, but anything where I was going to have to raise more than $30,000 was not something that I thought could happen. So video in the 90s was not the form that I wanted to work in. A difference came with what you could do with certain budgets, which, you know, when I sat

down to write this movie, I thought I was going to make a one location workplace movie that I could do for $30,000 with just me and my friends. And I could get the record label to give me some money for it. And as I began writing it, I realized that that's not how I do any of my stuff. The crazy stories and concepts that we come up with have nothing to do with practical convention. And so I realized that I had to just let myself go with the whole story. And that's also how I get in larger ideas is through the stuff that could be seen as weird. So with The Coup, we have a song called Ass Breath Killers, which are about these magical pills that you take that stop you from kissing the boss's ass. And sure, I could talk about workplace issues instead of making that song, but it wouldn't be as fun to me.

It wouldn't say it in the same way. And I don't think it would be as inspiring. So when I had bigger ideas with writing the script, I realized that I had to put them in there in similar ways to which I always had been creating. Did you know what you didn't know when you were first starting to write the script? Did you say, I'm just going to put all this in here and we'll see how it shakes out as I get closer to trying to make it? Well, you know, I'd read all the hack books. I'd read the Sid Field stuff. I'd read like, you know, just how to write a screenplay in 21 days, you know,

that sort of thing, just to see what people were saying. And mind you, for 20 something years, I've obviously I've been watching movies before that. But for 20 something years, I've been watching movies with the idea of breaking them apart in my mind so that I could see what I might do better. Right. So this movie does not follow any of the rules of breaking them apart in my mind so that I could see what I might do better. Right. So this movie does not follow any of the rules of those books. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Although some people go to the theater hoping for that, that gives you a little comfort to kind of know what genre this is in, what, you know, what are the conventions that I could expect to happen so that I could know whether they did that right or not. Was this a successful movie for me and for the world? Yeah. So how do

you know how to blow it up? Are you just saying, I know, I have a sense that I want to do something that is about the workforce in America, what it's like to be in Oakland, or do you have themes that are coming first? I don't know. I think if you do it too much that way, you can make something very corny. What I do is I maybe start with a general idea that I'm going to want it to go towards, but then I put personal experience. This is how I've always even done music.

I'll put personal experience in there first you know aesthetic has to form and content are inseparable and because of that form ends up becoming more important right so I can't just say I want to make a movie that has this viewpoint. I have to kind of dig inside myself and see how I feel about the world, which is why, like, you know, and you'll learn this in the first couple scenes, that why Cassius Green has an existential crisis. So instead of figuring out, like, the stuff that would work, that would make sense, you have to have a

trust in the idea that the real things that we think about and worry about are ones that can end up helping you tell a good story because you make the world more real. One thing I knew is that, and I guess this is in the obvious from the trailer, I knew that we would have a strike. I knew the opening scene because somewhat based on a friend of mine, and I knew that there was going to be a strike there. Everything else, I took the journey with Cassius. And, of course, then sometimes you go back and you're like, I'm going to add this detail in there. And how do I, you know, build towards that?

But the first way through, I took the journey with Cassius. I didn't know what was going to happen. I would get excited when, oh, this is what's about to happen next. You know, I have in my mind somewhat of a storytelling structure. And obviously, also, I'm a performer and a storyteller. I've done some storytelling events and talk to people that are experts at it. And they have different ideas on what I should do, what I should focus on. The times that I disagreed with them, even though they're experts, I was right. You end up feeling it from the crowd. You end up-

Can you give me an example of that? No, because I don't want to like talk shit. Sell somebody out? Okay. But more just like going against the instincts, basically. Well, not the instincts, going against the normal conventions. Because here's the thing is that, yes, there are certain tried and true things about storytelling that we've learned over the years. But there are also

things we haven't explored. There are ways that our culture changes and how we take things in. You can try new things and those new things a lot of times will suck, but sometimes they'll work. In order to feel that out, you have to not judge by, well, is this doing what movies are supposed to do at this point? You can't do that, but you also can't just be like, different is better. You have to figure out whether something's working. And sometimes you have to do other things to make it work. There are so many things going on in this movie that happen partially to keep momentum going for something else. And I'm sure that's a regular thing that happens, but there are details, details within details.

And by doing that, I'm able to make you ready for anything. There's some verbal gymnastics that we'll have to do here to avoid spoiling really anything about the movie. I encourage people to check out the movie, but I'm wondering because of some of the very interesting and as you say, unconventional turns that it takes, how do you sell the movie to people that you want to give you money or to make you, to partner with you on the story? Are you giving them everything and saying like, take this crazy journey? Yeah, no, I mean, I'm not going to say, wait until I make the movie, you know? Sure know sure you know so I tell them the story verbally so when you get to the third act

of the movie or whatever that is what were people's reactions some people were like oh that's a step too far you had me until then were you ever discouraged by that no because I knew that I mean just by the basics so with music for instance the coup does some weird shit and I knew that, I mean, just by the basics. So with music, for instance, The Coup does some weird shit. And I know that if you like this particular song that's on the radio by Pop Singer X, that's not the kind of music we make. So you're going to think that what I'm making is not good. You're going to have that feeling because it's not that thing that you like. So I knew that I was doing something different enough to where some people weren't going to go for it. And not only that, but because it was different, people that might go for it once it was might like it once it was made.

They weren't ever going to risk. That how do you convince people to take that risk then with a story like this? It's a game of stone soup. One, you make a story that only you can tell because there was nothing about this story where someone's like, you know, if you tweak this, you got to hit just like Ocean's 8 or whatever, you know? Yeah. There was no part of this that someone could say, it's close to that, let's make it that. So it was clear that if this movie was going to be made, there was one person that could tell it. The first thing I did was, once I finished the script the first time, I had had an old email for David Cross. I hit him up, said, hey, can I send you my script?

He's like, yeah, send it to my house now being in music was a handicap for me and getting this movie made because rather than being like hey I'm a screenwriter and I have a screenplay people know you as a musician they're like they don't take you seriously they think okay of course you want to make a movie. You also want to shoot a line of shoes and you want to do a restaurant chain or whatever. You're a dilettante. Yeah. David Cross now tells me he had no plan to read the script in the first place, but he happened to be out of town when it came and his assistant was house sitting. His assistant read the script and told him, you have to read this. This is hilarious. So he hit me back and all I was like, well, all I need to know is can I use your name? He was like, yes, use my name. So then I had script that David Cross thinks is hilarious.

Then I was able to get Patton Oswalt to read it. David Cross says it. So Patton Oswalt got on board so that by the time I met Dave Eggers, I was like, hey, I have this script that David Cross and Patton Oswalt really like, maybe you should read it. Because reading a script takes some time and you see a lot of bad art. So why am I going to spend the time, even if it's a PDF on an email, why am I going to open it? So then once Dave Eggers got on board, other people took it seriously enough to at least read the script. And honestly, once Sundance gets on board, you know, at first I was a guy who had never done a feature, had been in music the whole time, had only done a music video and a short documentary. But now I was a Sundance fellow who had done all these things.

What did you learn there? Did you take away meaningful things in that? Oh, yeah, so much. So I was part of first the screenwriter's lab and then the director's lab. At the Sundance labs, you have a week and you have, you know, a few workshops where you do these writing prompts, and that's with Joan Tewksbury, who wrote Nashville. It's basically a therapy session for your characters. Then you have all of these meetings with great screenwriters. They all sit around and they talk to you about your script. They've read it, and they give you notes, and you have these couple hour conversations. One of the most helpful things that happened in the screenwriting lab was I had this meeting with a guy, Kareem Ainous, who he did a movie called he's from Brazil based in Berlin. He did a movie called Mama Satan and did another one called Futuro Beach.

And he was like, hey, man, I just want to come to the Sundance Resort. I don't know what to tell you about your thing. But what I will tell you is that I love the main character, Cassius. He's really good. He warms my heart. He's like somebody I'd want to hang out with. And that's what tells me that he's not real because I hate everybody. Okay. Did this make Cassius more of a complicated figure? Yeah. Not just that statement, but we ended up having a four-hour conversation after that about people in our lives and to be in certain situations like that. And it made me think about that character a lot more critically. This is just a conversation. Theoretically, you could have this conversation

with anyone, anywhere. But are you going to? No. Are they going to be someone who thinks about character development and story all the time. Anyway, it changed. It made me give him more agency in the thing. And I think that before that, I had him kind of as this pinball getting slapped around. And I got a lot of great advice from other folks too, like, you want to make your script shorter,

just take out a word here and there. You know, by the end, you'll have it. It'll seem five pages shorter. You know, things like that. It was a really great experience to be there talking with other writers and realizing you have these masters in their field arguing with each other about your script. It makes you understand that none of us know what the fuck is going on. Yeah. That gives you confidence then to see that there's no right answer. Yeah. Like either somebody else could fuck this story up or I could fuck it up. Might as well be me. So what happens? You get the Sundance rubber stamp and then you get to go out in the world and

say, I'm more certified now? Well, for me, that definitely helped. Yeah. You know, because obviously there's plenty of Sundance movies that don't make their money back. So but at least got me to the point where, look, where I could say, look, there are people who know what they're talking about. Wink, wink. In the director's lab, you shoot five scenes from your movie. And then are you showing that to potential financiers? It's a dangerous thing because it's not the quality of a film and you want people's in people's imagination for it to look like a $30 million movie. So I did, but only after I made them watch Tarantino's lab things and Paul Thomas

Anderson's lab. Very smart. Very smart. That's good. But I mean, your movie has a very unique sensibility pace. It just feels a little different, like you're describing. And were you able to capture that even back then when you were in the lab? That was something I learned in the lab because, you know, just working with actors and the pace inside of a scene and how to get it there. I learned that during rehearsal with them. I think that is something that I definitely learned from doing that because, you know, I used with the investors, I definitely used the idea that, hey, I went to film school. Hey, I co-directed this video. Hey, I've been around this stuff. But it's a whole different, it's a whole different thing when you're trying to get

performances out of people. I studied that. I went, I got this book, Acting for Directors, and then took her class via Skype. And then Joan Darling has a similar one coming from a similar philosophy. And just knowing how to talk to actors and also having done some acting myself and being directed in the wrong way, but not being able to articulate what was wrong about it. Taking these classes and going to the labs really got me ready for that. And I think that was a big thing about this movie being successful, were the performances we got and the way that we were able to all communicate. And I was able to, you know, that I approached it not from a performance result, you know, making this be real to the process that these characters are going through. Because we've got all this crazy stuff going on.

And if someone is seeming like an actor, you're not going to care about it. Takes you right out of it. And luckily, besides that ability to communicate, I also had started out with great actors. Someone like Lakeith. He's not going to, you know, he's not somebody who he can be like, when you're on Mark A, you're frustrated. Then when you're over there, you get a little angry. You better, like, build that for him. And then he's going to give you such an authentic reaction to it.

This is an amazing cast, right? And everybody who talks about making this movie with you is essentially echoing a lot of what you're saying, which is that the experience of making it, the investment in the character is a huge part of why they feel good about it, why they love the movie, why it was a great experience for them. But were those people attached to do it before you're going?

How do you—because I think a lot of people are going to see this movie when it comes out, and they're going to be like, holy shit, this is like nine of the 11 most relevant people in the world right now. How did he get all these people to do this? Well, first of all, when I met with Lakeith, there had only been two episodes of Atlanta out. Yeah, Get Out had been filmed, but hadn't come out. He wasn't as known as he is right now. Just lucky for us that all those things came out. And I think other actors knew.

I definitely think Lakeith being involved made people see it as a serious thing. You know, we weren't just casting somebody that was the most popular at that time. Between that and the cast. And, you know, my lookbook actually had a hundred pictures in this lookbook that got people excited. And then choosing Jason Kisvarde, who had been the production designer for Swiss Army Man and the Turn Down for What video. Got people feeling like this is a vision that might be executed. What's in the lookbook? What do they see that they're like, I want to make a movie that looks like this? No famous images or anything like that.

But I guess the most famous image I had was the cubicles from Tron. But pictures of what I was calling beautiful clutter, because I feel like clean thing is something that got very popular in independent film, maybe inspired somewhat by Wes Anderson. And I wanted to do something that felt warm in a different way. And I think people seeing that it had this aesthetic gave them confidence. And at least that, I mean, here's the thing, being a director in a film is very similar to being a producer in music. It's the same job. My job is vision, a cohesive thing that lets everybody else do their job well. You have to be the person that believes in it. If you do that, then people have confidence

that they can do what they're doing well. And I think the lookbook, because it covered like all the scenes, it covered all these things. And some of these were just images culled from the internet. Others were, you know, paintings and things like that. You talked about the vision.

What is the most challenging part of doing this job once you were actually doing it? Once you're on set? Time. We ended up, after cutting a couple locations, we ended up with 61 locations in 28 days. That's a lot. Yeah. Especially since you thought it would be a one location movie five years before that. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. And costume changes. One thing that I like to tell is that Dave Eggers set me up with a three hour one on one master class with Spike Jones. And he was just kind of like, OK, he hadn't read the script.

He was just like, OK, what do you want to know? Just brain picking session. Yeah, I was just like, just tell me. He hadn't read the script. He was just like, okay, what do you want to know? Just brain picking session. Yeah. I was just like, just tell me what you think I need to know. The first thing he said was have all your characters, have your characters wear the same thing throughout the whole movie. That way you can change things on the fly. You can move stuff around in the edit and it won't matter.

And I did the opposite of that. Okay. It's because all our characters have different costumes on every scene. And in the case of Detroit, the character played by Tessa, her look changes, her facial look changes, the makeup and all that. Yeah, her hair, the earrings, everything, yeah. It also sometimes changes more than once in one scene. facial look changes the makeup and all that yeah her hair the earrings yeah yeah it also sometimes changes more than once in one scene so we had all of this stuff happening

and uh the problems of an independent movie where like we can't park the makeup truck here we got it it's takes 20 minutes to go back and forth to do all that. So I just said locations, but we've got, for the production design, for the art department, there's all kind of stuff they have to do, and sometimes they have to switch. They have to break everything down in this one location and put a new thing up there and get the next thing ready for tomorrow

or for the next move. I don't think I'm supposed to say what the budget was, but it was very little money, you know, and it was a union shoot. So the clock is ticking. Yeah. That's where the conversations with the actors, because we didn't really get a real rehearsal. We didn't even get one real read through with the whole cast. But the conversations with the actors, being able to use the time while stuff is happening that

I can't help to really get into the scene right then and there. And those actors being amazing in the first place. There's probably a great director that could take some non-actors and make a great film, but I think maybe they usually have to take a longer time to do it like there's that that Greek movie the park or whatever and she had worked with those kids for six months right that's like the Florida Project recently is an example of a lot of non-non-actors yeah and I don't know how long it took him yeah so us being able to move fast had to do with that. It had to do with our DP, Doug, being from TV. Like he was somebody from TV, but he got the vision that I was trying to do. He had some idea of what battles to fight and not as far as are we getting this lighting exactly this way? Are we

going to be able to mess around and do it a little different so we can get stuff done. Is it hard to be creative when you're essentially doing management? Because that's like, this is a lot of managerial work too. I mean, I guess that's what creating is. Like if you're building a sculpture, you're managing where the clay is going to be and how much you're going to put on it. It's all like sculpting something. But yeah, it could get stressful.

Like sometimes we need more takes I don't care that we just got it technically you know like you have to fight for those takes to get because that's the most important that's where your shit falls apart is the performance is just passing and not you know sometimes we need takes because we're doing stuff in such a crazy way that we got to give the actors time to get into it because they're not getting any rehearsal or anything like that. You do improvising on this at all? Oh, yeah. Sometimes I was so hyped that we were actually shooting my movie that I wouldn't want to yell cut.

And they were just the type of actors that they don't stop if you don't yell cut. So, and they were just the type of actors that they don't stop if you don't yell cut. You know, I probably have some outtakes where they went into a whole nother storyline because it just went wherever it went. But some of those things we use, like there's something, and I could talk about it because it's in the trailer, I guess. He had gotten a promotion. It was just supposed to end on a dialogue line. I just really loved what they were doing, how they were feeling. So I just didn't yell cut. And so there's this whole thing, champagne. Luckily, it was a real champagne bottle. They get it and they pop it open. And it ended up providing this moment for Cassius to think about what he was doing right then while this other stuff was

happening that ended up being really powerful. And then we built on that. Lakeith's acting style, he will know the whole thing. We'll talk about the emotional notes and what's happening, but he won't learn the script verbatim until the day before. And so what it ends up being is ends up getting is kind of this Woody Allen sort of thing where it feels like the script is just coming out. Interesting. Right then. And you couldn't have even predicted you were going to get a performance like that out of you. And me, some lines, I might be like, it's hey dude, not hey man, you know? But often I'm like,

no, this is like, I want it to feel more natural. When I was watching the movie, a lot of movies flashed across my mind. Even though your movie, I would say, it's reasonable to say, is not like any other movie

I've seen. But there's aspects, there's feelings, there's like an absurdity to some of the choices. Like Putney Swope's in there, Pee Wewee's big adventure like stuff like that where i was just like sometimes you're watching a movie and you're like i don't really know what's going on right now did you did you think about that when you were making the movie were there things that you

watched before you started doing this to to to set that up not purposely watch things but they're definitely things i'm taking from or stealing from, you know. Would you share that with people too when you were working with them? Oh, yeah. There's a piece where he's entranced by this elevator. I was like, what we're going for is the same feeling from Paul Schrader's Mishima where when the guy's looking at the Golden Pavilion. Paul Schrader will be in that chair next week, so that's very exciting that you just said that.

But yeah, that's a great one, yeah. Do people know that reference when you say that to them? No, I have to show it to them. Luckily, it's on YouTube. Yeah, I like the idea of Lakeith being down with Mishima, though. That's a good thing. So what about showing the movie to people for the first time? Because, as I said, there's some pretty wild shit

that happens. What kind of reaction were you hoping for and what kind of reaction did you get? I think it's been getting the exact reaction that I hoped for. I didn't want to just show my character going through an emotional change. I wanted to take the audience, give them an experience right then that felt similar to those emotional changes that come from being exposed to new ideas and seeing the world differently. What was the most surprising thing that someone said to you about the movie? Because I remember when I first saw it, there was a real look at the person next to you and be like, what the hell just happened here? In a very good way, in an entertained way. And I think that I was thinking about this a little bit with regard to your music too. It's similar to content and form.

Where does the message meet the entertainment? There's a lot of ideas in a lot of the coup's music. There's a lot of ideas in this movie. What's more important to you that they actually walk out and say like, I understand exactly what Boots is trying to say? Or is it, damn, that was a fun, crazy movie? What exactly is Toni Morrison's Song of Solomon trying to say? What is Salman Rushdie's Midnight's Children trying to say? Trying to say a lot of stuff. If I made a song or a movie with one thing to say, shoot me. Because I just wasted my time and yours, you know? Like, the whole thing is it's a piece of art.

Like, what's the one thing this painting has to say? I think that people got everything I wanted to say. It's just that people aren't used to getting that many things, you know? They all fit together into an outlook. But I think there's some confusion in where somebody's like, oh, I thought that the main point was this, but then there's all these other little points in there, too. There's nuance in it. And sometimes when you don't hit, my movie is not saying speak your mind and that everything will be fixed. And when it doesn't say that, even though every other movie says that, people are

like, oh, I'm a little confused by that, right? Yeah, yeah. And it handles that subject but says something different than what we've been hearing. Yeah, I'm curious about that concept of nuance, right? Because I feel like one of the things

that's going to come out of this movie is the idea of white voice and everything you're doing with white voice which is very funny and very effective but is also larded

with a lot of history, a lot of ideas about communication, code switching, all these things we've heard about a lot in the last 10, 20 years. Is it important for you that all of the audience gets some of those things, though? Because I can see a world in which it's misinterpreted. How will you feel about that? Well, yeah.

I mean, I think that's the chance with much art. Okay. The coup has been known as supposedly quote unquote political music. I don't like that term because that's say that's acting as if a pop music, that's a pop song that says, you know, girl, I want you to be my wife and stay at my house. Doesn't have a political message. It does. All these movies, all these songs, they have a political message. Sometimes it's just the status quo. So that being said, I hate a lot of music that has a political message. And for that particular reason, and even some movies, because it's too base, it's too simple. I have a pretty straightforward class analysis to how things work, that race and class are inextricably woven together, and that we have to get rid of capitalism in order for these problems

to be solved. The question that many people will have is, can you do that and all that sort of stuff? That's not the discussion in the movie. But the point is, if I'm clear about my analysis of how the world works, then I can put all sorts of ideas about life and love and existence in there without having to point to that overall analysis and that things will sit within that analysis and you get that. You're going to make more movies? Oh, yeah.

Yeah. This is my opening salvo. Will this be more of a focus now, do you think, in your life than The Coup? Probably. I mean, I'll probably make some like i i made a mistake by promising to make the soundtrack to this movie which we had to make while we were editing the movie that sounds challenging yeah and i you know kicked myself for that so i probably won't do a whole soundtrack again but maybe we'll do one or two songs. I won't have to be on the road so much. I really

love making movies and I've always wanted to make movies. So what's the, what's the next movie? What's the next thing? If I told you that. Okay. All right. I'm used to that answer, but what do you, what else do you want to accomplish as a filmmaker that maybe you couldn't on your first shot? Is there something you have to do some bigger goals and also like what is success for you in something like this? Cause if you simultaneously want to tear down capitalism, but you want a lot of people to go see a movie. I want people to join a movement that, I want people to join a movement that can actually change their world. And those movements are going to have to have an analysis of capitalism. You can't just be like, we're going to get rid of police brutality

and we're, or we're going to get rid of police brutality and we're going to get rid of racism without you're not going to do those things without at the very least using the power that we have through our place as cogs in the wheel, as workers in the workforce. So, I mean, there's a strike that happens in this movie. The point is, is for people is for me to get these ideas out about people figuring out ways to take power in their world. My analysis is not so new, obviously. It's something that most of the world actually has, apparently. Like, apparently, one in two millennials in the U.S., according to some right-wing study, they did some study and surveyed 4,200 millennials, and one in two of them said they would rather there be a socialist world. It's not a new thing. Matter of fact, that's why I don't spend the time saying the obvious stuff. I'm talking about

things from a micro standpoint and a macro standpoint. And I live in a world that is capitalist. So how am I going to get my ideas out? How am I going to pay the rent? I'm not somebody who thinks someone should make a commune in the woods and do stuff. That's not changing the world. But taking the right message from the film? Yeah, I mean, taking the right message from the film and joining an organization. I just want to be clear, like nothing changes if we just change the way we look at things.

People have to join organizations that have some way of wielding power and not just putting out the facts of how messed up things are. I want to make a movie that is optimistic. I believe I did. One that says no matter how fucked up things get, the point is to keep pushing. Boots, I like to end every episode by asking filmmakers what's the last great thing they've seen. So what is the last great thing you've seen? If I had, you know, done my homework, I would have said that the last great film I've seen, it's easy, is The Killing of a Sacred Deer. Oh, yeah. What did you like about that movie?

Oh, my God. See, I'll just say this. The thing that gets me excited about filmmaking is that possibly these great directors that I love, Paul Thomas Anderson, Yorgos Lanthimos, will see my movie and that I can say something to them. They can say something to me. Obviously, I want just the general public as well. But what I liked about that movie, partially how unsettling it was, like when I started watching it,

I was like, why are they talking like this? Is this bad acting? You know, but the truth is, is that the people are acting terribly, you know, like they're performing these things and,

you know, and that started unraveling. I thought there were some whatever some some story problems but there's some things to take apart in the movie you know but but yeah i just i loved the style i loved the taking people unsettling them gets them primed for anything and that's what i tried to get with my music is, I mean, with the movie is that I want to keep you knowing that it's not the game you thought it was. That's a perfect way to go out. Boots, congrats on. Sorry to bother you. And thank you for doing this. All right. Thank you.

Thanks again for listening to this week's episode of The Big Picture. I'll be back later this week with another episode of the show featuring a conversation with really one of my favorite filmmakers, one of the great filmmakers in America, Gus Van Sant, who has a new movie called He Won't Get Far on Foot coming out on July 13th. And for more on Sorry to Bother You, check out TheWinger.com where Justin Charity reviewed the film alongside The First Purge, talking a bit about the integration and cross-section of some of those movies. And for more on movies, just go to TheRinger.com in general. Thanks for listening.